Knowing what forged means also helps, I find a lot of people think wusthof is forged when it's not. The bolster is the only "forged" part and even that's a stretch
Been a Victorinox fan since the early 90s, so I'm not surprised. Can't say I've ever had any rust on a knife, but I have always treated my knives properly.
The issue is more that so many brands will just say ‘high carbon’ regardless of the actual quantity, so you always need to check the actual steel composition. It’s such a misused term that it’s essentially useless, I’ve seen knives sub 0.4% marketed as high carbon. I have found that most truly high carbon Japanese style knives are around 1% and above, but yeah I guess determining exactly what is ‘high carbon’ is relative to the type of knife you’re looking for. 0.6% is pretty mid in the overall knife market, unless you’re only looking at western style knives, in which case it’s quite high
Maybe I missed where he said it but he's talking carbon in stainless which is what western chef knives come in anymore. Most people that don't like 1080,1095 is because of the lack of chromium. I like antique Forgecraft 1095 knives but you don't want anybody using it that will leave it in the pan of water.
hmmm, i'd like to disagree on your statement that high carbon content makes the blade brittle or the edge chip easily. sure, 3Cr and 5Cr are soft by nature but i would never buy these. if the blade chips or rolls is determined by other elements in the steel and the heat treatment. i have blades starting from 1% Carbon going up to 1.8% and none of them is chippy or lost its tip. edit: for the viewers here i would recommend two affordable steels for kitchen knives: VG10 from Japan and 14C28N from Sweden. the latter has low Carbon content but makes up for it with the Nitrogen (N).
I think you should include the series of the knife along with the brand. Unlike Wusthof, Brands like Mercer and Dalstrong have such an extreme variety of material and quality across their various series that one shouldn't write them off because their low end knives are... low end.
I own the Wusthof and the Victorinox. I was shocked when I got the Victorinox. The feel of the two knives is vastly different but I like both. I am a light user of kitchen knives. Victorinox to me is the best deal. Very high quality and a decent price.
I have both Victorinox (3 piece set) and W (lots and lots of them) I will never down play Victorinox, very good for the money, but on edge retention I disagree. My Wustoffs get used much more than my Victorinox and sharpness retention is much better on Wustoff. Scraping a 14 degree angle on a flat surface will create more wear than a 20 degree. I think if you would have done additional scraping test, you would have seen much different result. Initial degree will always have a huge impact on edge retention.
Bought the Titan Forge (Dalstrong) fillet knife for Esses & Gees. The handle is insanely uncomfortable…. Like confusingly so. Might be slightly better for a small hand but still feels like it locks your hand in place and doesn’t allow for any kind of angle shift. Bought it as a sacrificial knife for doing rock fish. Haven’t had an opportunity to use yet.
We own a Wustof chef's knife and love it but having seen many reviews we got someone a Victorinox chef's knife as a gift and I was really impressed by it.
You should look into Japanese knives. This comparison didn't compare high end knives and low end knives. It compared knives of similar hardness across a price range. Yes a wusthof is an expensive German knife. Which plants it squarely in mid range knife territory. An expensive knife is $1,000 and no cheap knife can even come close to being compared. One handle is plastic, the other is semi-precious stone... and that's just the handle. So if we open our spectrum a little bit. We humans can have a high quality knife for less than an expensive mid range knife that is a wusthof. This knife would be a Tojiro DP. 100 dollars and better in every way than a wusthof except perhaps the handle. I'm not trying to deflate wusthof at all. I'm German, my last name is Hoffman. I would love to love my heritage more than others. But I consider myself a man of science. Wusthof makes great knives. Some of the best German knives that exist on an obtainable level. But there is definetley better to be had. I feel like I have found that level of best knife. It begins with the steel. SG2 stainless is a beautiful sweet spot in blade metal. The cheapest I've found it recently is in Zwillings Miyabi mizu series (I own these) on sale, $150 for the chefs knife. A true Japanese SG2 blade starts around 200 or 250 with a finish applied. This steel stays sharp forever! I haven't sharpened in 2 years. I could keep going but don't see a need, plus I want that razor back! 2 weeks ago it beat the electric slicer on the prime rib @ my mom's for Thanksgiving. I also earned the honor of slicing meats @ family events moving forward I guess... I can't recommend Japanese knives enough. They can actually save you money up front and then more in the long run! If your shopping for good knives that is. And if your shopping on the cheap you're just a decade from shooting yourself in the foot, combined with a decade of hating cooking. I now only buy knives I consider functional art. It becons me to the kitchen to cook. It fills me with joy to use my art to try to make more art just to destroy it all and begin again tomorrow! I have 2 mercer millenias. They are great training knives for the pinch grip, or when testing out a 10" chef knife, or when you want to smash things with your knife. But it's only 50 hardness on the blade. I have sharper paperweights after not too long.
Having a German name doesn't make you German. I know lots of people with names from all over the world. They're English. David Hasslehoff has a German name. He's American. You need to work on your copywriting skills for these little promotions you do in the comments.
Babbish’s line of knives is cheap and pretty good, I own everything from those to Kai’s knives for the japanese market, to semi custom $300 chef knives. Whustoff and Henkles charge way too much for the quality of steel in the knife, as it’s about the same alloy heat treated similatly to $20 knives.
I brought a set of knives for £100 and were perfect but dulled very quick. Recently I got Victorinox for less then £20 and are still nice and sharp, the only issue I have if the handles are a laminate plastic and they tend to delaminate slightly. Not a huge issue as it's easily removed.
Thanks for your effort. One small observation on your pre and post dull test. Many variables, brick composition, materials hit during dulling, your bias effect on pressure, etc I when younger started with the cheaper knives, and they worked fine. I can now afford the higher priced knifes and they took work just as good and a bit better due to weight and balance. The ergonomics are important if not more important, I find this in all products I use, especially as I get older and wiser. All in all good job!
@@DemoMan-fq9zi This reply reads like a spiteful attempt to validate to yourself that you made the right choice in buying a less expensive knife. His comment is on the fit and finish of the knives and he acknowledges they perform as well as each other. I haven't tried dozens of expensive knives, but the Wusthof Classic's weight, balance, and ergonomics are the best I've felt in a kitchen knife. I also own the Mercer knife, the quality and weight distribution don't even come close. Grinding my knives against bricks and soaking them in water are not real use cases, so what are the "results" that you're lauding?
One of my favorite knives is actually a Fiskars "santoku" that`s part of a knifeblock set I got for free when subscribing to a book club hehe, it has soft steel (I think its HRC is 52) and weighs nothing, but it sharpens up quickly on a cheap stone or honing steel and it just somehow turned into one of the knives I use most frequently. I don`t need a Shun Premier or a Makoto Kurosaki to be happy (: I`m still giving myself a Kai Shun Kai Wasabi Black santoku as a housewarming gift when I move into the new place though 😇
I have several expensive (to me) brands, including Global, Wustof, and Myabi, but I frequently use a Kiwi Brand #288 that also has an HRC around 52. It's lightweight and the blade is so thin that wedging is never an issue. With regular stropping or a smooth (not grooved) steel, I can keep the edge very sharp despite the softness of the steel. Coincidentally, I also have a Kai Shun Kai Wasabi santoku. It's a good knife for the price.
zwilling pro knife costs about half that of the wusthof (bought one for about 90 bucks).. shouldve slipped one in to make it complete. Id say it has the quality of the wusthof.. (handle material/full tang but costs half making it a better deal.. unless ur just a wusthof fan.. everyone has their favorites. I still like the victorinox for the lightness and the price those are a real beater dishwasher proof.
I've used a wide variety of knives over the years in various countries including Japan. My personal preference is European style chef's knives. Wusthof are overpriced in my opinion but they are very good. Interestingly I had both a Wusthof and a Sheffield Sabatier knife made of the same steel, they were the same size and reportedly had the same heat treatment but the Wusthof totally outperformed the Sheffield one in every way. But the Wusthof is way more expensive, about 4 or 5 times the price. Is it worth it? Depends on how you look at things. For me the answer is yes. My Wusthof is cheap compared to my Fallkniven and Benchmade knives so it's all a matter of perspective, pride of ownership, what you can afford and how much pleasure you find in using excellent tools.
I’ve got a few chef knives. Wusthof gourmet 8” chefs, Heckles classic 6” santoku and a Kuma 8” chefs. Two of them have x50crmov15, the other is 3cr13mov. They’re all great, the best handle and blade shape goes to the Kuma though. They last a long time without going dull, but I am a sharpener and do give them minor touch ups on abrasive rods and strops, even a finishing stone. One is sticky sawing sharp, one is slicing. And the last is convexed find ready to take on a bone or two
I have to say I bought a dalstrong about 4 years ago on a whim. I’ve sharpened mine 3 times and it’s my go to knife. I’m very wet behind the ears when it comes to knives but I havnt purchased one yet that I’d replace it for my go-to-do-everything knife.
Japanese steel. If your on a budget. Tojiro classic DP, $100, VG10 (60-62hrc),western grip, full tang with bolster, been in the industry for decades, considered a laser by professional chefs world wide, tested by me today against a $400 knife and held up well. If your on less of a budget bypass VG10 stainless and go for SG2 Stainless. Its more about the metal than the brand. The cheapest ive seen in SG2 are my very own miyabi mizu 8" chef for 150 on the zon. If your on even less of a budget im in love with my Nigara homono SG2 kiritsuke nakiri with custom western grip. The thing is a true unicorn nakiri with a sharp pointed tip! I keep calling it a gender bender lol... Other top notch brands 300-600 for a gyuto depending on the grip. Different finishes vary the price as well. All of these companies have SG2 lines. Takeshi Saji Yu Kurosaki Ryusen Homono
@@brandonhoffman4712 Ive seen a chai dao by yu kurosaki, ofc it was sold imediatly. Id love to add it to my bunka/gyuto combo. Im a bit of a fanboy, good quality.. hefty price though.. but things like that u can use for 20+ years.. makes it worth the investment. I also use cheap victorinox/zwilling knives.. its about the mood ur in. But things like these makes cooking more fun for sure.
Where do you buy your knives? The regular price for a 20cm/8 inch chef knife from the higher-range Icon series is around 150 USD/Euros. So this Classic knife should be about 110 bucks. 170 USD is way too expensive.
My personal opinion, comparing to Victorinox: Dexter-Russel knife steel rusts quite easily. Victorinox knife steel is quite a bit more rust-resistant. Victorinox knives have better edge retention. Victorinox knives take a finer edge than Dexter-Russel knives do. However, both manufactures make knives that easily easily surpass the degree of sharpness suitable for general-purpose use in western kitchens. I prefer the feel of Dexter-Russel knives, but a large part of this has to do with texture-sensitivity; I don't like the way the texture of Victorinox's "Fibrox" feels to my touch. I much prefer the texture of Dexter Russel's SaniSafe grips. (As a point of reference: I don't like the way velvet feels to my touch either.) So... If you throw your knives in the sink for a while, and leave them in the drying rack for a while after washing, avoid Dexter-Russell. Otherwise, mince a couple onions with knives from various brands, and choose the one that feels best to you. Here are the notes I made about my initial impression of the Dexter-Russel 8" Cook's Knife S145-8 with SaniSafe handles: This knife arrived a little dull, but about 50 swipes through the Rada wheel sharpener was sufficient to sharpen it to my standard sharpness for cooking knives. The top surface of the blade had sharpish corners, which I ground round to avoid finger irritation. The knife's tip was rounded rather than pointed, so I ground the tip to give the knife a good point. Overall, my initial impressions are 1) this is not a premium-quality knife, though quite usable, and 2) the steel on this knife is softish. Expect to touch up this knife regularly. The handle is comfortable. It appears the designer intends the user to pinch the handle rather than the blade when using a pinch grip.
@@warpedweirdo I asked because years ago, it was my wife's job to clean up after the kitchen ladies at a church. One day she noticed that a 6" Zwilling utility knife was missing. The lady who ran the kitchen said that they could no longer get it sharp, so she threw it away. You never seen a proud woman do a header into a trash can so fast. She came out with that Zwilling and a 6" Dexter Russel cook's knife. For the rest of her life, I was not allowed to touch those knives except to sharpen them. She passed a year and a half ago and I had to go back in the kitchen for the first time in 30 years. Out of the knives available in that kitchen, the Dexter Russel is my favorite. I was just wondering if I should seek to improve on it. I still don't touch her Zwilling. LOL.
@@Clubtender Doesn't hurt much to experiment. Just make sure you know what you're getting into before doling out more than $100 for a knife. You'll find some expensive knives have poor reviews because the purchasers don''t understand just how fragile the edges are on super-slicers. They do things like run the blade into an avocado seed, then twist to remove the seed from the avocado. Or hit a bone while cutting. Or use the knife to cut "hard" vegetables. The blade gets a big chip, prompting a bad review. I've even encountered a couple negative "I dropped my knife and the blade snapped in half!" type reviews. Everything is a trade-off. For me personally, the tradeoffs favor sub-$100 knives, of which Victorinox would be king were it not for the texture of their "Fibrox" handles.
I find it soewhat dubious to compare stamped with forged knives as far as the price point is concerned. I have both forged Wüsthof and stamped Victorinox knives and I can attest that the stamped Victorinox are not only super sharp, but also retain sharpness well. However, it goes without saying that a forged knive has a much thicker steel and a much more complex production process. Both the price of the raw material and the production costs are substantially larger. This explains in part the higher price. What you get is a knive that will probably last you a lifetime. Is it worth it? I think that is entirely subjective and depends on how the knive feels in your hand and for how many hours a day you use it. In any event, Victorinox and Mercer offer stamped / forged knives at an almost identical price point. It is easy to get a fairly inexpensive knive that does the job well.
From my research I can confirm, culinary knives with excellent high carbon steels my be purchased for under $50. - The best bang for the buck seems to be knife - brands - product lines, sold into the meat cutting industry. Culinary knife handle design leave a lot of room for improvement. - A geometrically corrected handle design may reduce relative safe grip strength requirements by 80%. - A safer pinch grip handle may also provide (10x) larger down-force application areas over traditional blade centric pinch grips.
They do slightly different jobs. When you use a knife the blade will go slightly out of alignment at the almost microscopic level, like little sharp teeth. A honing steel pushes these ‘teeth’ back into alignment - it’s a way of keeping the knife well maintained for longer before you eventually have to sharpen it again. A strop is used just after sharpening to remove the burr, which is basically a small amount of excess metal still clinging onto the edge of the blade
Bang for bucks, Victorinox are very hard to beat. Brilliant budget knives. Also, possibly surprising; Ikea. Some generations of their knife line is just unbeatable for their price.
Stumbled on this... I've been cheffing for 46 years now and use my knives every day, bar holidays (35 days a year!) and I use Gustav's...I'm on only my second 10" french cooks...and my original, is still a good knife..retains a great edge, although the blade is worn down a bit now, the replacement knife, bought in 1995 is in daily use, retains an edge brilliantly...I give all the knives an 8000 grit whetstone one a year, just gently, and a ceramic steel finish...I've had a wüstoff... heavy...hard to "manoeuvre ", if you get what I mean...I have victoinox, but only veg and pastry knives..don't like the cooks knives..too light... I'll subscribe 👍
I can't recommend Tojiro DP enough. Blows the pants off a wusthof and my last name is Hoffman! Seriously though, I just cut with one for the 1st time and my eyes widened in amazement. It's rivaling my 450 dollar Nigara. They come recommended by many chefs and now I see why. I got one for my mom for Christmas and my Nigara @ the same time. Told myself the Nigara couldn't be the first true Japanese knife I used. So went to test mom's Christmas gift. She's going to be so happy! A Tojiro DP Chefs knife runs about 100 bucks. Is made of VG10 with a hardness of 60-62. I'm a stickler for SG2 stainless. I prefer 62-65 hardness for my blade steel. I sharpen 1x every 2 years. I'm right @ 2 years and 2 weeks ago my knife sliced a med rare prime rib better than an electric slicer. I could probably make it to year 3, but would feel like a heathen! I too take my blades to 8,000 then strop. I've heard you can stop @ 4,000-6,000 on German steel. I've heard that taking it to 8,000 is redundant on German blades and professional knife sharpeners don't do it. At least according to knifewear, one of my knife sources. It has to do with the grain structure of the steel.
@@brandonhoffman4712 I'll look into that....I'm really happy with the longevity and keenness of the edge on Gustav...I use the stone maybe twice a year, and 5000 grit wet and dry to remind me where the edge is when giving it a touch up on the ceramic steel...my original Gustave 10", is still on use, but it's a bit thicker at the edge now... probably lost 3 mm over the years..but I'll get it back to it's former glory... eventually...it's a pretty hard steel to convince...and I won't put it near a grinder....I'm old fashioned.. cheers for your input anf channel
@@alimitchell5346 have you looked into thinning your old blade. Technically its supposed to be part of the sharpening process. I dont know how often, but i think every 2-3 sharpenings. It can still be done on yours, but it might be a bit of work. You might want to consider sending it in to a shop. I would think on a 10 inch your probably talking 30 bucks and that includes a sharpening. Ive never sent a blade in to get thinned, im just going off some pricing ive seen. Im still pretty new to sharpening and havent thinned a knife yet myself. Though it seems if done right, over time you can make your blade more perfect than the factory. Because they work on grinding machines that remove much more material. It should get that guy working as good as new through those carrots.
Yeah big fan of my mercer millenia, definitely dull quickly but tell you the truth im always going to abuse my kitchen knives on bones, on cheese (believe me cheese dulls a knife!) on really hard vegetables, so a knife thats easier to touch up the blade is also advantageous, and the mercers are very easy to revive on a stone
I would also like to see a comparison of the country of manufacture. As an unscored metric. It might be worth it to some people to have a better country of manufacture. But with Victorinox in Switzerland and Dexter-Russel (a really great budget brand you didn't have here) in the USA, you don't NEED to spend $140 to have a knife made in a human-rights country. Though dexter and victorinox make parts and some of their products in China.
as a knife guy this video is garbage from 30 seconds in. I have a collection of kitchen knives worth tens of thousands of dollars and I have seen and used just about everything on the market. The first thing he says is "quality steel." this is nonsense. even knives made of obsolete out of date, high maintenance low performance steels that were never even designed for use in knives like Japanese "white" steel can make excellent knives, and there are many knives made of this steel that can cost thousands of dollars. Obviously this video is directed at folks looking for a tool in the kitchen not necessarily a fancy ceremonial object or status symbol or even ultra high end knife... anyway, what matters the most is not the steel. the matters very little in the end. The difference between good knives and junk knives is how they are designed and made. This comes down to factors like the weight, balance, the cutting geometry ie the way the steel is grinded, etc. etc. The stainless steel used in German knives 4116 is basically the lowest end stuff you find in decent knives and yet in a well designed knife it can work just fine without any issue. What matters is the cutting geometry, how thick or think the steel is behind the edge, the blade profile, the balance, the weight distribution, all these things. And yes of course materials matters also, but to say steel is the #1 thing to look for is really dumb and I wanted to end the video after 30 seconds. if you want a high end knife as a kitchen tool, the most common suggestion for folks who know what they're doing is something like a Takamura R2. That's a solid one. Well worth the cost of around under $200 for the 210 mm gyoto. Which is on the lower end for high end knives. Really nice knives usually cost twice that. The good thing about German knives with bolsters is the bolster gives a lot of rigidity which enables them to grind the blades thinner than they otherwise would be. But some makers like zwilling still make chunky junky knives. Even the Japanese knives Zwilling sells like Miyabi mostly tend to have not great grinds on them.
@@jeffhicks8428 the Victorinox will cut up carrots just as well as any other knife. Him saying steel is important is referring to the knife being made out of a named knife steel that should be a pre requisite for buying a knife that will perform at acceptable levels. Your suggestion to buy a $200 knife is not at all realistic for most people when a Victorinox will do as good of a job. Despite you thinking it takes a lot of money to design a knife at the end of the day it is a wedge for seperating material fine blanking can make almost any shape for the blade and injection molding plastic can make almost any shape for the handle and if you are making a lot of knives it doesn't add that much cost to optimise both.
@@jeffhicks8428 the Takakura R2 does look to be a great knife but for the general kitchen knife user they are likely to chip it due to the high hardness and the steel will be more likely to rust and it will be hard for them to sharpen. I think a general non knife person will get better service out of the Victorinox.
@@JohnFrumFromAmerica You missed the point. A vnox out of the box is a fine knife for most folks. There are similar options for less money these days, but leave that aside for now. With some modification, ie of the cutting geometry, the vnox can be made to hang with almost anything, despite being made from a rather low end stainless steel called 4116. The point is steel doesn't matter as much as you think. everything else does. the reason i suggest the takamura r2 is because it's a turn key high performance knife. out of the box, it can hang with anything. the one benefit of those German knives with bolsters is the bolster allows them to grind the blade much thinner if they choose to. this affords higher cutting performance, but a lot of products have the bolster and dont even take advantage of that, like a lot of zwilling stuff ive seen. the fact of the matter is, 4116 can't get very hard, isn't tough ie can chip easier, and it doesn't hold edges very good. vs. another higher end steel like say R2. but the whole point I'm making is steel doesn't matter as much as you think. the design of the knife, the ergos, the balance, and critically the way the blade is ground, ie the cutting geometry, matter MORE than steel. I can modify a vnox to cut circles around knives with fancier steels that cost 5x as much. but the idea of suggesting the takamura is for a knife thats not too expensive that is already top notch performance without needing any modifications. this is why so many pros use that knife. it's the most common suggestion you will see in kitchen knife forums for a reason. for entry level, the vnox is a fine choice as well. like I said with mods, I can hang with almost anything. steel doesn't matter that much.
@@jeffhicks8428 I think you are reading too much into the steel is the number one thing about a knife. All the knives he chose have very basic steels. He is not saying everything needs to be a powder steel. All he is saying is a knife should be made out of a steel that is designed for cutlery. For the non knife person this is important as they often buy no name knives with really bad steels. But as you said basic steels can perform reasonably. If you only want to spend $50 to $20 then this video is good advice. If you want to spend 200 to 300$ then the considerations would be different and your advice sounds good but that would be a different video with a different audience.
I own handforged japanese knives, also expensive european ones.. but mostly just grab my victorinox chinese chefs knife.. the cheapest thing i own.. but the most fun to use.. I am looking to upgrade sometime to a better chinese slicer.. (maybe japanese made, but hard to find). I would reccomend anyone thats in to cooking to atleast try one sometimes.
A good shifts Knife isn't very hard because they want to put a fresh edge on it a lot. Not a lot of time in a busy kitchen to Sharpen up You're Knife. A few swipes on a steel and continue working.
I have a very large set (20+ knives) of Wusthoff Grand Prix (original) and I am TERRIBLE to these knives. I leave them with food caked on in the sink for days...even left more than a few of them submerged in dirty water a few times overnight. None have ever rusted. I have stained the steel on one steak knife and on my santoku; however, I started buying them in 2010 so no knife is going to remain perfect (especially in my care...but with over 10 years use...they are doing pretty well all considering. I will say that the Grand Prix does not expose the tang nor the rivets so maybe thats why I have had better luck. As for sharpness/sharpening...I do belt sand them every 2 or 3 years, bet in between I keep a very small Lansky Blade Medic. The fixed angles are not very helpful (angle is too much), but I use the1000 grit ceramic for touchups and and the tapered 600 grit diamond on those rare occasions where I bang the edge up in some way other than through cutting.
Are Daltrong knives legit? I'm not a brand snob by any means, but I had assumed they were one of many alibaba knives that are just rebranded generic knives
yeah but..Dalstrong dont sell for anywhere near the $20 you quoted any more. That particular model, which is the lowest of their range, is £50 - 3x what is shown here. What you say about brands all claiming high carbon is also true of "forged"; listings on amazon will show the majority of factory stamped knives as forged in their little item comparison boxes. Brands will also sometimes claim to be "hand made" - which in 99% of cases actually only means hand finished. There are very few places where they actually hand forge knives from start to finish as it is not cost effective. A true forged knife like those made by Ryusen in Japan are few and far between (and cost a fortune). Making "forged" just as ambiguous as "high carbon".
I cook a lot and have always used cheap knives made of steel. Paying 100+ on a single knife is stupid unless you are a) wealthy and/or b) a professional chef
@@SergioPena20 His post reveals a lack of knowledge about knife steels, but that doesn't necessarily invalidate the value of his opinion for other people. He should supply a little more contextual info about his experiences so readers can determine how closely their preferences and use cases match his. Personally, I discount his opinion not because he knows nothing about knife materials, but because his language is ridiculously strong given the number of subjective factors in knife selection. It's as if he thinks his uses, needs, and preferences are the only ones that matter, all others are irrelevant. Typical of a highly self-centered person.
Look if you have a variance of up to 100%+ with your sharpness tests then 3 data points for an average is NOT enough. Your testing method has a p-value of like 25% or something. You are also testing random parts of the knife seemingly...
to be fair, a wüsthof knife like this cost nearly the same as victorinox where i live. i have no clue why the price difference is so crazy at your place
Wustof and Zwilling offer life time warrenty which I think is a bad thing. They have to replace it when it breaks and some people can't use the knife properly so they make it too thick at the edge which just makes not good knives
Neither Wüsthof* nor Zwilling offer a lifetime warranty*. The reason why they make rather soft-steel, thick-bladed knives is the European style of cutting and cooking, not any warranty concerns.
@@einundsiebenziger5488They use thick edge and Full Flat profile that sticks to food. The design is only good to withstand abuse but has horrible cutting performance. Onion Brunoise on Zwilling pro is so bad I would need several hours thinning it to fix it. The steel was a good choice 70 years ago but It's soft and brittle comparing with what we have today at same price range or even lower. AEB-L, 13C26 or even well treated 7Cr13 far outperform what they use.
ay man you cant just post a high quality and informative video about knife out of nowhere and think i wouldn't notice? oh yeah just little bit of feedback when you trying to explain a knife hope you write the name, price, and other relevant information in the bottom cornor. because i cant remember all of the information. also thanks for the video and sorry if i make grammar mistake
Linear blade to symmetrical handle alignment on culinary knives creates the need for extreme & uncomfortable wrist angles to align the blade with your lower arm. This design lowers the cost of crafting/manufacturing knives, so I don't expect it to change.
Am I the only one who finds the looping smooth jazz music in the background incredibly annoying? Great information, but so grating to listen to. I ended up muting the sound and turning on subtitles. Much better. It's a shame because the presenter has a pleasant speaking voice.
I’m a bit of a knife nerd, and when it comes to German style cutlery, I would say he is pretty on point. All those knives use pretty similar steel heat treated similarly which would be considered mid to low end for modern cutlery. With Japanese style cutlery however, the difference is greater if you pay more as you see a wider variety of steels used. You can get a knife in clad VG10 for like $40-80, or one in super blue, super gold, Hap-40, or ZDP-189 for like 2-8x as much, those steels will hold an acute edge for 2-4x longer than the cheaper model.
No they're not. Not all of us home cooks can even think of making our own knives from scratch. You sound like a typical BMW-driving, chardonnay-sipping knife snob.
I really dislike the European knife design. The steel is soft and brittle comparing with modern clean steels on same price range. Full Flat profile sticks to food like crazy. Thick 15 degree edge has horrible cutting performance even if its shaving sharp. Nothing makes sense for me. I think the Japanese are way ahead in knife design as long as you know how to properly use a knife. The difference in cutting performance is huge.
He does an excellent job of explaining knives and their properties aimed at the typical home chef. What exactly are you expecting? And if you don't like his content why then do you watch it... only to complain?
Your methods are not great, more particularly as relating to testing the sharpness. Project Farm, Cedric & Ada, Outdoor 55, and others have much better methodology for doing these tests and use a very replicatable, controlled set up for testing them. I think you should have done what you did with doing the initial sharpness test(factory edge) then dull that through to the point it stops cutting paper, Test sharpness then sharpen it, do BESS test, do dulling test again, then do BESS test, and do paper test along the way to figure out exactly when it goes dull. If you do it like Project Farm you would need a weight that is then used as the same pressure for each knife, or do it like Cedric & Ada or Outdoor55 where it is based on actually cutting something. Doing the weightedvtest on wood may be an acceptable method, as one if the biggest things that dulls the knife is the cutting board, what you are cutting, and how much pressure you are putting into each cut. I would highly advise you go watch what they do, and update your approach from there. Your video had good potential, but you need to have better methods for your testing. Until then, this video feels almost lazy in its approach and does not feel like a study/test that I could seriously consider as a knife enthusiast with many $100+ kitchen knives as well cheaper ones that I have sharpened and tested in a commercial kitchen and at home with doing bulk processing for canning and food storage in addition to regular meals. As to steel composition, there is a lot more that goes into it than that. For example, a X50cr15mov would be better if heat treated to 58, but also recieving a cryo treatment as compared to something like a 7cr13mov without a cryo treatment also at 58. Small thing like that can have a big impact, and Carbon and chromium are not everything. You can compare elements using the website you mentioned, however I would refer people to the knife forums and look up specific steels, to get a better look at what that steel is capable of at different Hrcs, blade grinds, blade angles, etc.. Another good resource would be The Science of Sharp and the Knife Steel Nerd websites. There are also a few good books: Knife Engineering: Steel, Heat Treating, and Geometry by Dr. Larrin Thomas The Story of Knife Steel: Innovators Behind Modern Damascus and Super Steels by aformentioned author. Knife Deburring: Science behind the lasting razor edge by Dr. Vaidum Kraichuck These are some great resources that help to really dive into the nuances of what makes a knife steel, what makes a good knife, and how to truly get it sharp. I want you to do well and succeed in helping people, but that requires better more rigorous testing and methodology. I think you made some good comments that are very helpful to the average consumer such as looking for that transparency on knife steel and on hardness. That is a big thing especially like on amazon, but also on other sites that help them actually get good things and avoid scammers. It does not guarantee they will get a good knife as there are companies that do that and still have quality control issues, but it makes much more likely that they are at least going to get something decent. Just my ¢2. Have a great day, and I hope this helps! Sincerely, JS
For HRC (= "Hardness Rockwell Cone", because hardness is tested by pressing a diamond cone into the steel) say "age-are-see". Believe it or not there is no "h" in the pronunciation of the letter "H"!
💯 I would bet good money that none of those factory edges would have scored better than 200g if the test had been done properly. Per Edge on Up's instructions, each test should take 4-6 seconds--not .5 seconds.
As a man and as a Chef for a while now (30 years ) I find heavy high carbon knives the best i mainly use 33cm blade length knife for almost every thing . When i am feeling lazy i use the 12 inch , when it comes to sheer work load it always better to have a heavy knife and just manhandle it ....Give me a decent wooden handle any day of the week ...Hard steel wood handle heavy long blade .....It does seem though either men are not men any more might have something to do with their receding testosterone , but they appear to be getting feminine with their knife choice , as in light petite knifes . Although I am a Man not a woman heavy knives high carbon steel every day of the week .Interesting channel ...... Victorinox Striking knife , that is the genral utlity knife i use .. Although my forearms are over 14 inches in circumference wrists are 9 inches Like i said i am a man ....Appreciate the work you do ...
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Forged vs. Stamped and Full Tang or not Full Tang matters as well.
Knowing what forged means also helps, I find a lot of people think wusthof is forged when it's not. The bolster is the only "forged" part and even that's a stretch
Been a Victorinox fan since the early 90s, so I'm not surprised.
Can't say I've ever had any rust on a knife, but I have always treated my knives properly.
Slow your cuts down on the bess test. The update rate is to slow to cut that fast. Slow steady pressure.
Anything over .6% carbon is considered a high carbon steel. In your mind, 1095 (.95% carbon) wouldn’t be a high carbon steel
The issue is more that so many brands will just say ‘high carbon’ regardless of the actual quantity, so you always need to check the actual steel composition. It’s such a misused term that it’s essentially useless, I’ve seen knives sub 0.4% marketed as high carbon. I have found that most truly high carbon Japanese style knives are around 1% and above, but yeah I guess determining exactly what is ‘high carbon’ is relative to the type of knife you’re looking for. 0.6% is pretty mid in the overall knife market, unless you’re only looking at western style knives, in which case it’s quite high
Maybe I missed where he said it but he's talking carbon in stainless which is what western chef knives come in anymore. Most people that don't like 1080,1095 is because of the lack of chromium. I like antique Forgecraft 1095 knives but you don't want anybody using it that will leave it in the pan of water.
hmmm, i'd like to disagree on your statement that high carbon content makes the blade brittle or the edge chip easily. sure, 3Cr and 5Cr are soft by nature but i would never buy these. if the blade chips or rolls is determined by other elements in the steel and the heat treatment. i have blades starting from 1% Carbon going up to 1.8% and none of them is chippy or lost its tip.
edit: for the viewers here i would recommend two affordable steels for kitchen knives: VG10 from Japan and 14C28N from Sweden. the latter has low Carbon content but makes up for it with the Nitrogen (N).
I think you should include the series of the knife along with the brand. Unlike Wusthof, Brands like Mercer and Dalstrong have such an extreme variety of material and quality across their various series that one shouldn't write them off because their low end knives are... low end.
I own the Wusthof and the Victorinox. I was shocked when I got the Victorinox. The feel of the two knives is vastly different but I like both. I am a light user of kitchen knives. Victorinox to me is the best deal. Very high quality and a decent price.
I have both Victorinox (3 piece set) and W (lots and lots of them) I will never down play Victorinox, very good for the money, but on edge retention I disagree. My Wustoffs get used much more than my Victorinox and sharpness retention is much better on Wustoff. Scraping a 14 degree angle on a flat surface will create more wear than a 20 degree. I think if you would have done additional scraping test, you would have seen much different result. Initial degree will always have a huge impact on edge retention.
Bought the Titan Forge (Dalstrong) fillet knife for Esses & Gees. The handle is insanely uncomfortable…. Like confusingly so. Might be slightly better for a small hand but still feels like it locks your hand in place and doesn’t allow for any kind of angle shift. Bought it as a sacrificial knife for doing rock fish. Haven’t had an opportunity to use yet.
We own a Wustof chef's knife and love it but having seen many reviews we got someone a Victorinox chef's knife as a gift and I was really impressed by it.
You should look into Japanese knives. This comparison didn't compare high end knives and low end knives. It compared knives of similar hardness across a price range.
Yes a wusthof is an expensive German knife. Which plants it squarely in mid range knife territory.
An expensive knife is $1,000 and no cheap knife can even come close to being compared. One handle is plastic, the other is semi-precious stone... and that's just the handle.
So if we open our spectrum a little bit. We humans can have a high quality knife for less than an expensive mid range knife that is a wusthof. This knife would be a Tojiro DP. 100 dollars and better in every way than a wusthof except perhaps the handle.
I'm not trying to deflate wusthof at all. I'm German, my last name is Hoffman. I would love to love my heritage more than others. But I consider myself a man of science. Wusthof makes great knives. Some of the best German knives that exist on an obtainable level. But there is definetley better to be had.
I feel like I have found that level of best knife. It begins with the steel. SG2 stainless is a beautiful sweet spot in blade metal. The cheapest I've found it recently is in Zwillings Miyabi mizu series (I own these) on sale, $150 for the chefs knife. A true Japanese SG2 blade starts around 200 or 250 with a finish applied. This steel stays sharp forever! I haven't sharpened in 2 years. I could keep going but don't see a need, plus I want that razor back! 2 weeks ago it beat the electric slicer on the prime rib @ my mom's for Thanksgiving. I also earned the honor of slicing meats @ family events moving forward I guess...
I can't recommend Japanese knives enough. They can actually save you money up front and then more in the long run! If your shopping for good knives that is. And if your shopping on the cheap you're just a decade from shooting yourself in the foot, combined with a decade of hating cooking.
I now only buy knives I consider functional art. It becons me to the kitchen to cook. It fills me with joy to use my art to try to make more art just to destroy it all and begin again tomorrow!
I have 2 mercer millenias. They are great training knives for the pinch grip, or when testing out a 10" chef knife, or when you want to smash things with your knife. But it's only 50 hardness on the blade. I have sharper paperweights after not too long.
Having a German name doesn't make you German. I know lots of people with names from all over the world. They're English.
David Hasslehoff has a German name. He's American.
You need to work on your copywriting skills for these little promotions you do in the comments.
Wüsthof* chef's knife ...
Babbish’s line of knives is cheap and pretty good, I own everything from those to Kai’s knives for the japanese market, to semi custom $300 chef knives. Whustoff and Henkles charge way too much for the quality of steel in the knife, as it’s about the same alloy heat treated similatly to $20 knives.
I brought a set of knives for £100 and were perfect but dulled very quick. Recently I got Victorinox for less then £20 and are still nice and sharp, the only issue I have if the handles are a laminate plastic and they tend to delaminate slightly. Not a huge issue as it's easily removed.
I got a Mercer Genesis Chefs knife for $36 off of Amazon. Great knife. Really good quality for the price.
Nice, the Genesis is one I’m yet to try out
Thanks for your effort. One small observation on your pre and post dull test. Many variables, brick composition, materials hit during dulling, your bias effect on pressure, etc I when younger started with the cheaper knives, and they worked fine. I can now afford the higher priced knifes and they took work just as good and a bit better due to weight and balance. The ergonomics are important if not more important, I find this in all products I use, especially as I get older and wiser. All in all good job!
Sounds like you think with your wallet and bias and not actual results.
@@DemoMan-fq9zi This reply reads like a spiteful attempt to validate to yourself that you made the right choice in buying a less expensive knife. His comment is on the fit and finish of the knives and he acknowledges they perform as well as each other. I haven't tried dozens of expensive knives, but the Wusthof Classic's weight, balance, and ergonomics are the best I've felt in a kitchen knife. I also own the Mercer knife, the quality and weight distribution don't even come close. Grinding my knives against bricks and soaking them in water are not real use cases, so what are the "results" that you're lauding?
One of my favorite knives is actually a Fiskars "santoku" that`s part of a knifeblock set I got for free when subscribing to a book club hehe, it has soft steel (I think its HRC is 52) and weighs nothing, but it sharpens up quickly on a cheap stone or honing steel and it just somehow turned into one of the knives I use most frequently.
I don`t need a Shun Premier or a Makoto Kurosaki to be happy (:
I`m still giving myself a Kai Shun Kai Wasabi Black santoku as a housewarming gift when I move into the new place though 😇
I have several expensive (to me) brands, including Global, Wustof, and Myabi, but I frequently use a Kiwi Brand #288 that also has an HRC around 52. It's lightweight and the blade is so thin that wedging is never an issue. With regular stropping or a smooth (not grooved) steel, I can keep the edge very sharp despite the softness of the steel. Coincidentally, I also have a Kai Shun Kai Wasabi santoku. It's a good knife for the price.
Great video. Best comparison on the web!
Thank you 🙏
One of the worst discussions of steel and edge geometry. Toughness and resistance to chipping were completely omitted.
FYI, you always sight the blade for straightness with the knife pointing towards yourself so that nothing can hide behind curves or a belly etc
I bought a Prestige Sheffield steel chefs knife about 30 years ago. Cost me about £20. It will keep going long after I leave this earth.
I like Victronox knives they are reasonably priced ,they feel good in the hand, hold a edge ,easy to sharpen and bot heavy
Victorinox* / not* heavy
zwilling pro knife costs about half that of the wusthof (bought one for about 90 bucks).. shouldve slipped one in to make it complete. Id say it has the quality of the wusthof.. (handle material/full tang but costs half making it a better deal.. unless ur just a wusthof fan.. everyone has their favorites. I still like the victorinox for the lightness and the price those are a real beater dishwasher proof.
I've used a wide variety of knives over the years in various countries including Japan. My personal preference is European style chef's knives. Wusthof are overpriced in my opinion but they are very good.
Interestingly I had both a Wusthof and a Sheffield Sabatier knife made of the same steel, they were the same size and reportedly had the same heat treatment but the Wusthof totally outperformed the Sheffield one in every way. But the Wusthof is way more expensive, about 4 or 5 times the price. Is it worth it? Depends on how you look at things. For me the answer is yes.
My Wusthof is cheap compared to my Fallkniven and Benchmade knives so it's all a matter of perspective, pride of ownership, what you can afford and how much pleasure you find in using excellent tools.
ethical concerns and poor quality should be another nail in the coffin of the chinese export market. Just buy something made anywhere else
I’ve got a few chef knives. Wusthof gourmet 8” chefs, Heckles classic 6” santoku and a Kuma 8” chefs. Two of them have x50crmov15, the other is 3cr13mov. They’re all great, the best handle and blade shape goes to the Kuma though. They last a long time without going dull, but I am a sharpener and do give them minor touch ups on abrasive rods and strops, even a finishing stone. One is sticky sawing sharp, one is slicing. And the last is convexed find ready to take on a bone or two
Henckels*
@@einundsiebenziger5488 Thanks for correcting my spelling. I can’t believe I missed that.
I have to say I bought a dalstrong about 4 years ago on a whim. I’ve sharpened mine 3 times and it’s my go to knife. I’m very wet behind the ears when it comes to knives but I havnt purchased one yet that I’d replace it for my go-to-do-everything knife.
Japanese steel. If your on a budget. Tojiro classic DP, $100, VG10 (60-62hrc),western grip, full tang with bolster, been in the industry for decades, considered a laser by professional chefs world wide, tested by me today against a $400 knife and held up well.
If your on less of a budget bypass VG10 stainless and go for SG2 Stainless. Its more about the metal than the brand. The cheapest ive seen in SG2 are my very own miyabi mizu 8" chef for 150 on the zon.
If your on even less of a budget im in love with my Nigara homono SG2 kiritsuke nakiri with custom western grip. The thing is a true unicorn nakiri with a sharp pointed tip! I keep calling it a gender bender lol...
Other top notch brands 300-600 for a gyuto depending on the grip. Different finishes vary the price as well. All of these companies have SG2 lines.
Takeshi Saji
Yu Kurosaki
Ryusen Homono
@@brandonhoffman4712 Ive seen a chai dao by yu kurosaki, ofc it was sold imediatly. Id love to add it to my bunka/gyuto combo. Im a bit of a fanboy, good quality.. hefty price though.. but things like that u can use for 20+ years.. makes it worth the investment. I also use cheap victorinox/zwilling knives.. its about the mood ur in. But things like these makes cooking more fun for sure.
Where do you buy your knives? The regular price for a 20cm/8 inch chef knife from the higher-range Icon series is around 150 USD/Euros. So this Classic knife should be about 110 bucks. 170 USD is way too expensive.
What is your opinion of the Dexter-Russel SaniSafe 6" and 8" chef knives?
My personal opinion, comparing to Victorinox:
Dexter-Russel knife steel rusts quite easily. Victorinox knife steel is quite a bit more rust-resistant.
Victorinox knives have better edge retention.
Victorinox knives take a finer edge than Dexter-Russel knives do. However, both manufactures make knives that easily easily surpass the degree of sharpness suitable for general-purpose use in western kitchens.
I prefer the feel of Dexter-Russel knives, but a large part of this has to do with texture-sensitivity; I don't like the way the texture of Victorinox's "Fibrox" feels to my touch. I much prefer the texture of Dexter Russel's SaniSafe grips. (As a point of reference: I don't like the way velvet feels to my touch either.)
So...
If you throw your knives in the sink for a while, and leave them in the drying rack for a while after washing, avoid Dexter-Russell.
Otherwise, mince a couple onions with knives from various brands, and choose the one that feels best to you.
Here are the notes I made about my initial impression of the Dexter-Russel 8" Cook's Knife S145-8 with SaniSafe handles:
This knife arrived a little dull, but about 50 swipes through the Rada wheel sharpener was sufficient to sharpen it to my standard sharpness for cooking knives. The top surface of the blade had sharpish corners, which I ground round to avoid finger irritation. The knife's tip was rounded rather than pointed, so I ground the tip to give the knife a good point.
Overall, my initial impressions are 1) this is not a premium-quality knife, though quite usable, and 2) the steel on this knife is softish. Expect to touch up this knife regularly. The handle is comfortable. It appears the designer intends the user to pinch the handle rather than the blade when using a pinch grip.
@@warpedweirdo I asked because years ago, it was my wife's job to clean up after the kitchen ladies at a church. One day she noticed that a 6" Zwilling utility knife was missing. The lady who ran the kitchen said that they could no longer get it sharp, so she threw it away. You never seen a proud woman do a header into a trash can so fast. She came out with that Zwilling and a 6" Dexter Russel cook's knife. For the rest of her life, I was not allowed to touch those knives except to sharpen them. She passed a year and a half ago and I had to go back in the kitchen for the first time in 30 years. Out of the knives available in that kitchen, the Dexter Russel is my favorite. I was just wondering if I should seek to improve on it. I still don't touch her Zwilling. LOL.
@@Clubtender Doesn't hurt much to experiment.
Just make sure you know what you're getting into before doling out more than $100 for a knife. You'll find some expensive knives have poor reviews because the purchasers don''t understand just how fragile the edges are on super-slicers. They do things like run the blade into an avocado seed, then twist to remove the seed from the avocado. Or hit a bone while cutting. Or use the knife to cut "hard" vegetables. The blade gets a big chip, prompting a bad review. I've even encountered a couple negative "I dropped my knife and the blade snapped in half!" type reviews.
Everything is a trade-off. For me personally, the tradeoffs favor sub-$100 knives, of which Victorinox would be king were it not for the texture of their "Fibrox" handles.
Dalstrong are good knives. He must got the cheapest one. I got the Valhalla set they balance and razor sharp. Edge holds great.
I find it soewhat dubious to compare stamped with forged knives as far as the price point is concerned. I have both forged Wüsthof and stamped Victorinox knives and I can attest that the stamped Victorinox are not only super sharp, but also retain sharpness well. However, it goes without saying that a forged knive has a much thicker steel and a much more complex production process. Both the price of the raw material and the production costs are substantially larger. This explains in part the higher price. What you get is a knive that will probably last you a lifetime. Is it worth it? I think that is entirely subjective and depends on how the knive feels in your hand and for how many hours a day you use it. In any event, Victorinox and Mercer offer stamped / forged knives at an almost identical price point. It is easy to get a fairly inexpensive knive that does the job well.
When it comes to balance why not pinch the knife where you would hold it while in use, not on the bolster?
That`s what I do, I use an S grip, so I completely agree (:
amazing video
From my research I can confirm, culinary knives with excellent high carbon steels my be purchased for under $50.
- The best bang for the buck seems to be knife - brands - product lines, sold into the meat cutting industry.
Culinary knife handle design leave a lot of room for improvement.
- A geometrically corrected handle design may reduce relative safe grip strength requirements by 80%.
- A safer pinch grip handle may also provide (10x) larger down-force application areas over traditional blade centric pinch grips.
Can you compare post strop and post honing steel.?
They do slightly different jobs. When you use a knife the blade will go slightly out of alignment at the almost microscopic level, like little sharp teeth. A honing steel pushes these ‘teeth’ back into alignment - it’s a way of keeping the knife well maintained for longer before you eventually have to sharpen it again. A strop is used just after sharpening to remove the burr, which is basically a small amount of excess metal still clinging onto the edge of the blade
18:52 severe rust on the tang could probably break the knife, while rust on the edge might not be hard to fix.
Bang for bucks, Victorinox are very hard to beat. Brilliant budget knives. Also, possibly surprising; Ikea. Some generations of their knife line is just unbeatable for their price.
Stumbled on this...
I've been cheffing for 46 years now and use my knives every day, bar holidays (35 days a year!) and I use Gustav's...I'm on only my second 10" french cooks...and my original, is still a good knife..retains a great edge, although the blade is worn down a bit now, the replacement knife, bought in 1995 is in daily use, retains an edge brilliantly...I give all the knives an 8000 grit whetstone one a year, just gently, and a ceramic steel finish...I've had a wüstoff... heavy...hard to "manoeuvre ", if you get what I mean...I have victoinox, but only veg and pastry knives..don't like the cooks knives..too light...
I'll subscribe 👍
I can't recommend Tojiro DP enough. Blows the pants off a wusthof and my last name is Hoffman! Seriously though, I just cut with one for the 1st time and my eyes widened in amazement. It's rivaling my 450 dollar Nigara.
They come recommended by many chefs and now I see why. I got one for my mom for Christmas and my Nigara @ the same time. Told myself the Nigara couldn't be the first true Japanese knife I used. So went to test mom's Christmas gift. She's going to be so happy!
A Tojiro DP Chefs knife runs about 100 bucks. Is made of VG10 with a hardness of 60-62.
I'm a stickler for SG2 stainless. I prefer 62-65 hardness for my blade steel. I sharpen 1x every 2 years. I'm right @ 2 years and 2 weeks ago my knife sliced a med rare prime rib better than an electric slicer. I could probably make it to year 3, but would feel like a heathen! I too take my blades to 8,000 then strop.
I've heard you can stop @ 4,000-6,000 on German steel. I've heard that taking it to 8,000 is redundant on German blades and professional knife sharpeners don't do it. At least according to knifewear, one of my knife sources. It has to do with the grain structure of the steel.
@@brandonhoffman4712 I'll look into that....I'm really happy with the longevity and keenness of the edge on Gustav...I use the stone maybe twice a year, and 5000 grit wet and dry to remind me where the edge is when giving it a touch up on the ceramic steel...my original Gustave 10", is still on use, but it's a bit thicker at the edge now... probably lost 3 mm over the years..but I'll get it back to it's former glory... eventually...it's a pretty hard steel to convince...and I won't put it near a grinder....I'm old fashioned.. cheers for your input anf channel
@@alimitchell5346 have you looked into thinning your old blade. Technically its supposed to be part of the sharpening process. I dont know how often, but i think every 2-3 sharpenings. It can still be done on yours, but it might be a bit of work. You might want to consider sending it in to a shop. I would think on a 10 inch your probably talking 30 bucks and that includes a sharpening. Ive never sent a blade in to get thinned, im just going off some pricing ive seen. Im still pretty new to sharpening and havent thinned a knife yet myself. Though it seems if done right, over time you can make your blade more perfect than the factory. Because they work on grinding machines that remove much more material. It should get that guy working as good as new through those carrots.
Yeah big fan of my mercer millenia, definitely dull quickly but tell you the truth im always going to abuse my kitchen knives on bones, on cheese (believe me cheese dulls a knife!) on really hard vegetables, so a knife thats easier to touch up the blade is also advantageous, and the mercers are very easy to revive on a stone
I would also like to see a comparison of the country of manufacture. As an unscored metric. It might be worth it to some people to have a better country of manufacture. But with Victorinox in Switzerland and Dexter-Russel (a really great budget brand you didn't have here) in the USA, you don't NEED to spend $140 to have a knife made in a human-rights country. Though dexter and victorinox make parts and some of their products in China.
Great video! I'd have loved to see some good coverage on the Mercer Genesis, though.
Going to be buying myself a Dalstrong and put my own handles on
As a knife guy this is a great video for anyone wanting to buy a kitchen knife.
as a knife guy this video is garbage from 30 seconds in. I have a collection of kitchen knives worth tens of thousands of dollars and I have seen and used just about everything on the market. The first thing he says is "quality steel." this is nonsense. even knives made of obsolete out of date, high maintenance low performance steels that were never even designed for use in knives like Japanese "white" steel can make excellent knives, and there are many knives made of this steel that can cost thousands of dollars. Obviously this video is directed at folks looking for a tool in the kitchen not necessarily a fancy ceremonial object or status symbol or even ultra high end knife... anyway, what matters the most is not the steel. the matters very little in the end. The difference between good knives and junk knives is how they are designed and made. This comes down to factors like the weight, balance, the cutting geometry ie the way the steel is grinded, etc. etc. The stainless steel used in German knives 4116 is basically the lowest end stuff you find in decent knives and yet in a well designed knife it can work just fine without any issue. What matters is the cutting geometry, how thick or think the steel is behind the edge, the blade profile, the balance, the weight distribution, all these things. And yes of course materials matters also, but to say steel is the #1 thing to look for is really dumb and I wanted to end the video after 30 seconds.
if you want a high end knife as a kitchen tool, the most common suggestion for folks who know what they're doing is something like a Takamura R2. That's a solid one. Well worth the cost of around under $200 for the 210 mm gyoto. Which is on the lower end for high end knives. Really nice knives usually cost twice that.
The good thing about German knives with bolsters is the bolster gives a lot of rigidity which enables them to grind the blades thinner than they otherwise would be. But some makers like zwilling still make chunky junky knives. Even the Japanese knives Zwilling sells like Miyabi mostly tend to have not great grinds on them.
@@jeffhicks8428 the Victorinox will cut up carrots just as well as any other knife. Him saying steel is important is referring to the knife being made out of a named knife steel that should be a pre requisite for buying a knife that will perform at acceptable levels. Your suggestion to buy a $200 knife is not at all realistic for most people when a Victorinox will do as good of a job. Despite you thinking it takes a lot of money to design a knife at the end of the day it is a wedge for seperating material fine blanking can make almost any shape for the blade and injection molding plastic can make almost any shape for the handle and if you are making a lot of knives it doesn't add that much cost to optimise both.
@@jeffhicks8428 the Takakura R2 does look to be a great knife but for the general kitchen knife user they are likely to chip it due to the high hardness and the steel will be more likely to rust and it will be hard for them to sharpen. I think a general non knife person will get better service out of the Victorinox.
@@JohnFrumFromAmerica You missed the point. A vnox out of the box is a fine knife for most folks. There are similar options for less money these days, but leave that aside for now. With some modification, ie of the cutting geometry, the vnox can be made to hang with almost anything, despite being made from a rather low end stainless steel called 4116. The point is steel doesn't matter as much as you think. everything else does. the reason i suggest the takamura r2 is because it's a turn key high performance knife. out of the box, it can hang with anything. the one benefit of those German knives with bolsters is the bolster allows them to grind the blade much thinner if they choose to. this affords higher cutting performance, but a lot of products have the bolster and dont even take advantage of that, like a lot of zwilling stuff ive seen.
the fact of the matter is, 4116 can't get very hard, isn't tough ie can chip easier, and it doesn't hold edges very good. vs. another higher end steel like say R2. but the whole point I'm making is steel doesn't matter as much as you think. the design of the knife, the ergos, the balance, and critically the way the blade is ground, ie the cutting geometry, matter MORE than steel. I can modify a vnox to cut circles around knives with fancier steels that cost 5x as much. but the idea of suggesting the takamura is for a knife thats not too expensive that is already top notch performance without needing any modifications. this is why so many pros use that knife. it's the most common suggestion you will see in kitchen knife forums for a reason. for entry level, the vnox is a fine choice as well. like I said with mods, I can hang with almost anything. steel doesn't matter that much.
@@jeffhicks8428 I think you are reading too much into the steel is the number one thing about a knife. All the knives he chose have very basic steels. He is not saying everything needs to be a powder steel. All he is saying is a knife should be made out of a steel that is designed for cutlery. For the non knife person this is important as they often buy no name knives with really bad steels. But as you said basic steels can perform reasonably. If you only want to spend $50 to $20 then this video is good advice. If you want to spend 200 to 300$ then the considerations would be different and your advice sounds good but that would be a different video with a different audience.
I'm still going to buy a Japanese gyuto and a decent pairing knife. If I need anything for bones then I'll buy a specific knife for that
I own handforged japanese knives, also expensive european ones.. but mostly just grab my victorinox chinese chefs knife.. the cheapest thing i own.. but the most fun to use.. I am looking to upgrade sometime to a better chinese slicer.. (maybe japanese made, but hard to find). I would reccomend anyone thats in to cooking to atleast try one sometimes.
A good shifts Knife isn't very hard because they want to put a fresh edge on it a lot. Not a lot of time in a busy kitchen to Sharpen up You're Knife. A few swipes on a steel and continue working.
How about Made In and Misen knives?
Well, they both have great marketing departments...
Misen is already out of business due to bankruptcy.
I have a very large set (20+ knives) of Wusthoff Grand Prix (original) and I am TERRIBLE to these knives. I leave them with food caked on in the sink for days...even left more than a few of them submerged in dirty water a few times overnight. None have ever rusted. I have stained the steel on one steak knife and on my santoku; however, I started buying them in 2010 so no knife is going to remain perfect (especially in my care...but with over 10 years use...they are doing pretty well all considering. I will say that the Grand Prix does not expose the tang nor the rivets so maybe thats why I have had better luck. As for sharpness/sharpening...I do belt sand them every 2 or 3 years, bet in between I keep a very small Lansky Blade Medic. The fixed angles are not very helpful (angle is too much), but I use the1000 grit ceramic for touchups and and the tapered 600 grit diamond on those rare occasions where I bang the edge up in some way other than through cutting.
Wüsthof*
Are Daltrong knives legit? I'm not a brand snob by any means, but I had assumed they were one of many alibaba knives that are just rebranded generic knives
The title of this video is absurd, or even more accurately, misleading.
yeah but..Dalstrong dont sell for anywhere near the $20 you quoted any more. That particular model, which is the lowest of their range, is £50 - 3x what is shown here. What you say about brands all claiming high carbon is also true of "forged"; listings on amazon will show the majority of factory stamped knives as forged in their little item comparison boxes. Brands will also sometimes claim to be "hand made" - which in 99% of cases actually only means hand finished. There are very few places where they actually hand forge knives from start to finish as it is not cost effective. A true forged knife like those made by Ryusen in Japan are few and far between (and cost a fortune). Making "forged" just as ambiguous as "high carbon".
Chrome, it's pretty hard bror .
I cook a lot and have always used cheap knives made of steel. Paying 100+ on a single knife is stupid unless you are a) wealthy and/or b) a professional chef
Cheap knives made of steel? You realize ANY mix of carbon and iron is steel right? No matter how cheap or expensive.
@@SergioPena20 His post reveals a lack of knowledge about knife steels, but that doesn't necessarily invalidate the value of his opinion for other people. He should supply a little more contextual info about his experiences so readers can determine how closely their preferences and use cases match his.
Personally, I discount his opinion not because he knows nothing about knife materials, but because his language is ridiculously strong given the number of subjective factors in knife selection. It's as if he thinks his uses, needs, and preferences are the only ones that matter, all others are irrelevant. Typical of a highly self-centered person.
Victorinox uses junk steel most similar to 420A.
Where are you buying Dahlstrong knives for $20? Current listings on Amazon, e-bay, etc., are $60 and up to over $100!
Dalstrong*
Dalstrong Chef Knife - Gladiator Series 20cm in Australia = $125. Ouch!
Look if you have a variance of up to 100%+ with your sharpness tests then 3 data points for an average is NOT enough. Your testing method has a p-value of like 25% or something. You are also testing random parts of the knife seemingly...
to be fair, a wüsthof knife like this cost nearly the same as victorinox where i live. i have no clue why the price difference is so crazy at your place
Where can you buy a Wüsthof knife for the same price as a Victorinox Fibrox knife?
Wustof and Zwilling offer life time warrenty which I think is a bad thing. They have to replace it when it breaks and some people can't use the knife properly so they make it too thick at the edge which just makes not good knives
Neither Wüsthof* nor Zwilling offer a lifetime warranty*. The reason why they make rather soft-steel, thick-bladed knives is the European style of cutting and cooking, not any warranty concerns.
@@einundsiebenziger5488 if you look at vintage models from both brands they made spines thicker but they are NOT thick at the edge.
@@einundsiebenziger5488They use thick edge and Full Flat profile that sticks to food. The design is only good to withstand abuse but has horrible cutting performance.
Onion Brunoise on Zwilling pro is so bad I would need several hours thinning it to fix it.
The steel was a good choice 70 years ago but It's soft and brittle comparing with what we have today at same price range or even lower. AEB-L, 13C26 or even well treated 7Cr13 far outperform what they use.
You're holding it wrong... Thumb and index on the blade
ay man you cant just post a high quality and informative video about knife out of nowhere and think i wouldn't notice?
oh yeah just little bit of feedback when you trying to explain a knife hope you write the name, price, and other relevant information in the bottom cornor. because i cant remember all of the information. also thanks for the video and sorry if i make grammar mistake
Kudos! One of the best videos of its kind. Well-prepared, objective and with figures.
This channel should have more views
Linear blade to symmetrical handle alignment on culinary knives creates the need for extreme & uncomfortable wrist angles to align the blade with your lower arm. This design lowers the cost of crafting/manufacturing knives, so I don't expect it to change.
This is basically a gun channel for brits
I swear by the cheapest victorinox knives.
Am I the only one who finds the looping smooth jazz music in the background incredibly annoying? Great information, but so grating to listen to. I ended up muting the sound and turning on subtitles. Much better. It's a shame because the presenter has a pleasant speaking voice.
Yeah, you are the one. While watching the video I was thinking that the music is great and was looking for the name of the song :)
I barely notice it
It far enough in the background that I barely notice it.
Classic example of someone who thinks they know a lot about knives and how to test them but actually is in the peak of the Dunning-Kruger curve.
I’m a bit of a knife nerd, and when it comes to German style cutlery, I would say he is pretty on point. All those knives use pretty similar steel heat treated similarly which would be considered mid to low end for modern cutlery.
With Japanese style cutlery however, the difference is greater if you pay more as you see a wider variety of steels used. You can get a knife in clad VG10 for like $40-80, or one in super blue, super gold, Hap-40, or ZDP-189 for like 2-8x as much, those steels will hold an acute edge for 2-4x longer than the cheaper model.
@@nandayane I'm referring more to his complete inability to use that sharpness tester and the hilarity of his dulling method
LOL. A bit harsh but yes.
All mass produced knives are garbage. I make my own.
Forge On!!!
No they're not. Not all of us home cooks can even
think of making our own knives from scratch. You
sound like a typical BMW-driving, chardonnay-sipping
knife snob.
I really dislike the European knife design.
The steel is soft and brittle comparing with modern clean steels on same price range.
Full Flat profile sticks to food like crazy.
Thick 15 degree edge has horrible cutting performance even if its shaving sharp.
Nothing makes sense for me.
I think the Japanese are way ahead in knife design as long as you know how to properly use a knife. The difference in cutting performance is huge.
I'm sorry I can't deal with this guy
He does an excellent job of explaining knives and their
properties aimed at the typical home chef. What exactly
are you expecting? And if you don't like his content why
then do you watch it... only to complain?
Your methods are not great, more particularly as relating to testing the sharpness. Project Farm, Cedric & Ada, Outdoor 55, and others have much better methodology for doing these tests and use a very replicatable, controlled set up for testing them. I think you should have done what you did with doing the initial sharpness test(factory edge) then dull that through to the point it stops cutting paper, Test sharpness then sharpen it, do BESS test, do dulling test again, then do BESS test, and do paper test along the way to figure out exactly when it goes dull. If you do it like Project Farm you would need a weight that is then used as the same pressure for each knife, or do it like Cedric & Ada or Outdoor55 where it is based on actually cutting something. Doing the weightedvtest on wood may be an acceptable method, as one if the biggest things that dulls the knife is the cutting board, what you are cutting, and how much pressure you are putting into each cut. I would highly advise you go watch what they do, and update your approach from there. Your video had good potential, but you need to have better methods for your testing. Until then, this video feels almost lazy in its approach and does not feel like a study/test that I could seriously consider as a knife enthusiast with many $100+ kitchen knives as well cheaper ones that I have sharpened and tested in a commercial kitchen and at home with doing bulk processing for canning and food storage in addition to regular meals.
As to steel composition, there is a lot more that goes into it than that. For example, a X50cr15mov would be better if heat treated to 58, but also recieving a cryo treatment as compared to something like a 7cr13mov without a cryo treatment also at 58. Small thing like that can have a big impact, and Carbon and chromium are not everything. You can compare elements using the website you mentioned, however I would refer people to the knife forums and look up specific steels, to get a better look at what that steel is capable of at different Hrcs, blade grinds, blade angles, etc.. Another good resource would be The Science of Sharp and the Knife Steel Nerd websites.
There are also a few good books:
Knife Engineering: Steel, Heat Treating, and Geometry by Dr. Larrin Thomas
The Story of Knife Steel: Innovators Behind Modern Damascus and Super Steels by aformentioned author.
Knife Deburring: Science behind the lasting razor edge by Dr. Vaidum Kraichuck
These are some great resources that help to really dive into the nuances of what makes a knife steel, what makes a good knife, and how to truly get it sharp.
I want you to do well and succeed in helping people, but that requires better more rigorous testing and methodology. I think you made some good comments that are very helpful to the average consumer such as looking for that transparency on knife steel and on hardness. That is a big thing especially like on amazon, but also on other sites that help them actually get good things and avoid scammers. It does not guarantee they will get a good knife as there are companies that do that and still have quality control issues, but it makes much more likely that they are at least going to get something decent.
Just my ¢2. Have a great day, and I hope this helps!
Sincerely,
JS
For HRC (= "Hardness Rockwell Cone", because hardness is tested by pressing a diamond cone into the steel) say "age-are-see". Believe it or not there is no "h" in the pronunciation of the letter "H"!
H is actually pronounced as "aitch" not "age". So there is an "h" in the pronunciation.
Depending on the manufacturer, if the knife is forged, the bolster and tang are often a different steel that has been welded to the blade steel.
Your BESS sharpness tester results are useless, you are pushing way too fast!
💯 I would bet good money that none of those factory edges would have scored better than 200g if the test had been done properly. Per Edge on Up's instructions, each test should take 4-6 seconds--not .5 seconds.
As a man and as a Chef for a while now (30 years ) I find heavy high carbon knives the best i mainly use 33cm blade length knife for almost every thing . When i am feeling lazy i use the 12 inch , when it comes to sheer work load it always better to have a heavy knife and just manhandle it ....Give me a decent wooden handle any day of the week ...Hard steel wood handle heavy long blade .....It does seem though either men are not men any more might have something to do with their receding testosterone , but they appear to be getting feminine with their knife choice , as in light petite knifes . Although I am a Man not a woman heavy knives high carbon steel every day of the week .Interesting channel ...... Victorinox Striking knife , that is the genral utlity knife i use .. Although my forearms are over 14 inches in circumference wrists are 9 inches Like i said i am a man ....Appreciate the work you do ...
I big man brute force all things roar!
Real man no need precision and ergos roar!
Guys nowdays more n more panzies. Want utility and comfort ain't manly. Real man ignore discomfort difficulty lack of refinement roar!
Me go thump my chest now. ROAR!