If you've never seen the whole thing, the entire "practice" press conference is incredible: ruclips.net/video/K9ZQhyOZCNE/видео.html For context, there are claims he was a bit tipsy during the press conference. AI's best friend had passed away during the season, and there were trade rumors after a disappointing 1st round exit... www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29143112/the-little-known-story-allen-iverson-practice-rant
Ya think *that* was good (ok, it was), find the followup press conference by AI's mom and a couple of her friends... She did that a day or two later, defending AI's rant.
When the NBA started resting stars more to limit their usage and maximize their productivity I thought about Allen Iverson. A man his size, who played as fast and hard as he did led the NBA in minutes per game 7 times. The only player to do it more was Wilt Chamberlain (9 times), who was a physical freak. Next in line behind Iverson are LeBron James and Michael Finley with 3 each. I would love to have seen him in a system/era that understood usage better, I think we'd have a different view of him and just how incredible he was.
I think rules that protect the shooter and the elimination of hand checking should also be discussed, to shoot well from behind the arc you need space. Where as post up Mid-range shots you can use strength to generate the space to get a decent look. But you can't really do that from behind the arc you need to use your strength and mechanics to shoot the ball, you can't sacrifice as much that far away from the hoop, and hand checking and not allowing a player to land made shots outside the three point line harder. Of course that's only part of the story, because shooting mechanics and fundemtals are also different stepping into a two motion form as opposed to utilizing a hop to get a shot off because of forward momentum to try to get a defender off balance for a pull up now your guaranteed space, if a defender is in a shooter airspace they can be called for a foul. So generation of good 3 point looks have become a lot easier so coaches emphisize practicing catch and shoot behind three point line a lot more.
Your videos are ridiculously good. I can tell you put on a lot of effort during a very long period of time into the study of basketball. I'm glad you decided to share your knowledge with us.
@@avoiredranger110 I know😔. It’s because people are stupid and they’d rather see “pre 2000s players are plumbers haha Lebron 🐐, Tyler hero is a BUCKET 👀”
Tom Chambers was the first NBA player standing 6'10 or taller to attempt at least one 3 point shot per game, which he did in 1986-87, averaging nearly two 3pt attempts per game and making 37% of them.
That is more of a testament to his coach than to him. Dražen Petrović was a guard who shot 45% from 3 and he wasn't even allowed 3 three point shots per game because NBA coaches were very smart back then /s
He does practice them. He's just terrified of failing and looking bad in live games. Something he's gotta get over if he ever wants to elevate his career to the next level.
If you watch the colonels they really played more modern than even teams of the 90s you'd see more motion more shooting more screen plays with the dampier/ Gilmore tandem
@@canucksfever for sure is depending on the situation. For example, if the offense has an extra player on a fast break (2 on 1, 3 on 2, etc.) and the defense focuses in on defending the guys closest to the rim, then a 3 isn't a terrible idea.
I still can’t wrap my head around that Harden 2019 year when he took 13 threes and took 11 free throws per game. How u take a lot of 3s and get to the free throw line so much? Never cared about analytics before that Harden dominance but I started to understand the modern NBA better based on that year alone
@@anthonycelestin3559 He took a lot of contested stepback 3s and got fouled on some of them, and you know a foul on a 3 pt shot warrants 3 FTAs, so he prolly didn't care about making them shots so much than just drawing the foul.
This kind of video is why I watch this channel and it's a great example of why RUclips is waaaay better than the usual TV talking heads on sports shows. It's intelligent research and informed opinion, instead of some "personality" loudly yelling at some other guys, "I think shooting was way better back in my day, and here's why...also Lebron is good/bad".
I think, when comparing eras, the converse has to be taken into account as well. If today's players spend more time practicing the three, it stands to reason that yesterday's players spent more time practicing post moves, lay-ups, etc. It goes both ways.
I think the effect of that would be less though, because those shots are objectively easier, being much closer to the hoop. You don’t need as much practice to get good at a 10 foot jumper as a 25 foot jumper.
@@docd2295 it's not just a 10 foot jumper; it's balance, footwork, etc. I wouldn't say Karl Anthony Towns' offensive game takes more practice than Olajuwon's did, despite it being, on average, much farther from the basket.
I watch a Thinking Basketball video and leave not only more informed and better equipped for intelligent basketball conversations, but more mentally and emotionally sound, and more spiritually pure and fulfilled.
This video featured two of my fave shooters: Mark Price and Glen Rice. Those dudes were deadeye shooters. Ray Allen and Klay Thompson are as close to perfect shooters as you can get stylistically speaking. Their form and follow thru are nearly flawless.
I've always been a shooter but there's something different bout watching post play, I miss it. It's rare now. Now you get towns vs Embiid and they're chucking up threes
That's one thing I dislike about the current game -- not just less post play but also few medium range Js. Sure the 3 is an additional point, but it seems like a lot of players have just given up on 2s. One sets up the other -- if you only shoot 3s I think you're leaving money on the table.
@@mikegribanov6105 Increasing your scoring volume can decrease your overall efficiency but when it comes to 3 point shooting particularly, when transitioning from analytics, increasing your 3 point volume will increase your 3 point efficiency. Look at Michael Jordan, an 83% free throw shooter . His early seasons he was shooting 17-18% from 3 point but on 0.6-1 attempts a game so they were probably full/half court heaves or chucks at the end of the shot clock. When you look at his highest volume 3 point seasons, those were the seasons where his most efficient. 42 and 37% with a shortened 3 point line and 35 and 37% with a normal 3 point line on 3 attempts a game. As a matter of fact, Jordan never shot under 35%, when he took two more 3's a game. How about magic Johnson, an 85% free throw shooter ? Same story . 17-20% early in his career on .4 attempts and then in 89-90 where he took 3.5 attempts , he shot 38% from 3. Let's take Lamarcus Aldridge a modern player for example. He's an 81% FT shooter. Last season , took .5 attempts a game on 23% and then finally took the plunge into morey ball this season and is now shooting 38% on 3 attempts a game. When it becomes a rhythm shot for players, they actually shoot better. It's Further from the basket, so less contested than long 2's and is a higher value shot than a long 2.
@@NothingElseMattersJM what are you talking about ? There was 6 players in the league that made 3.5 or more 3s last year. Trae Young made 3.4.. In order to average 3-4 more points a game Garnett would have to turn 3-4 of his made 2 point shots into three point shots, since a 3 is one point more than a 2. Considering I'm not even sure KG averaged 3-4 made jump shots per game period, I highly doubt hed be one of half a dozen most voluminous 3pt shooters in the league
@@mikegribanov6105 I never said he would make 3.5 3’s a game.I said he’d be shooting more at a higher %. Nowhere did I say a power forward is going to shoot as many 3’s as Trae Young. What are you talking about KG didn’t make 3-4 jumpshot a a game? You clearly never watched him play lol.
BRILLIANT!!! thanks for this vid, ben. long time listener/viewer, and i always feel comfort when you wish us a great day at the end :) as always, your basketball (and life) insights aren’t terrible lol.
great video. important concept. I'd argue shooting form standardization especially among upcoming big men could have a profound effect on the game though, which is another practice based evolution.
Crazy how I was watching a playoff game earlier from 2011 with stats showing Memphis last in 3pa with just 10 a game. Nowadays that's how much some stars shoot in a single half.
This also goes hand in hand with how you defend the shot, as more 3s are being taken the better the players are at defending it making the average % level out or even decline.
we need to talk about how shooting form has changed just like the volume of shots taken have changed. guys used two motion shots before that was good for midrange but now three point shooters use one motion shots that are good for three point shooting. that is just as big a factor as volume of attempts.
Volume more than anything. Magic Johnson an 85% free throw point shooter shot 17-20% from 3 on .4 attempts a game in his early seasons. When he took 3.5 attempts a game in 89-90, he shot 38% from 3 lol.
Nothing I look forward to more than a new video from you, absolutely amazing content and insight, really feel I learn so much about basketball which is much more nuanced than football.
I miss seeing a variety of scoring strategies in the NBA, the increased use of the 3 point shot has made the NBA less creative offensively. I feel the three point line should be modified. Instead of curving around to the corners - the three point line should be painted straight horizontally across the court (23'9 feet at center). This would make it more a "specialty shot" like it used to be (less common). And it would increase the effectiveness of players who develop strong post and midrange games. Most importantly it makes watching basketball less predictable and boring (as it is when players hover only on the perimeter). It opens the game to more variety of offensive strategy, it separates the truly unique 3 point bombers from the average shooters and it makes the 3 point shot special again.
I must say I really like how it allows golden state type offenses to space the floor fluidly, with cuts and motion leading to jaw-dropping shots, as opposed to just backing down in the post every time. How would spacing work with no three point shot? Fair point though I see where you’re coming from
@@jaymz18 Regarding spacing - I'm not proposing to get rid of the three point line - i'm proposing that the line not wrap around in an arc shape to the corners - but instead, be a straight line horizontal across the court. What this does primarily is decrease the analytical value of the 3 point shot - by getting rid of the highest percentage area of the court (the corners). It means PJ tucker can't just hang out in the corner and shoot threes (those would only count as two from that spot on the court). It means we wouldn't see teams assembled like the Rockets (because 3 pointers are harder to make at a high percentage). It means players like Giannis, Simmons, Embiid wouldn't be pressured to learn how to hit a 3 in order to stay relevant. In short - the 3 point shot holds too much influence and power over the game - because players have become better shooters - and so the shot itself needs to be made harder. Warriors basketball (which I love also) would still exist, players wouldn't post everytime, they would simply post more. Right now analytics tell coaches post players are not as efficient as three point shots - that's a problem for Centers primarily. So this is me looking out for centers and making sure there is value in every skill set (not just shooting 3s). But I agree with you - I wouldn't want to see post back downs "everytime" either - the goal in the end is to create enough variety and room on the court for as many unique skill sets as the NBA players have to offer.
It would be extremely interesting to see a more guard focus video that digs into the distance the best sharpshooters are yanking the ball up from and how that has impacted spacing on defense
Just did some quick research into Louie Dampier. Didn't know he led the ABA in all-time points and assists. I wonder if anyone ever asked why he took fewer 3s?
"The game plan changed when we finally started getting the big guys," Dampier said. "Getting the ball inside, even though it wasn't said 'hey Louie, take less 3s,' but there was an emphasis on getting the ball into the big guys to make our offense more effective."
@@57wookie ah I see. Although if you've got an Artis Gilmore sooting 58% FG, 62% TS, I don't think even by the modern lens people would really complain.
Another thoughtful deep dive. Well done. One thing though -as Much as the AI trope is not gonna go away, take a look at the end of the 30 for 30 on Iverson. It neatly dispels the insinuation that AI was lazy or a Diva. In fact, AI says, in his own words, how important practice is to his success. And yet, the dig at him won't go away because he had been misunderstood and expressed his frustration without poise and the media cast him as the villain. Oh well....
This number didn't really address the TYPES of threes being taken now. Before the Splash Brothers, the only people I saw consistently make off the dribble threes were Stockton, Price and Hornacek. Now, there are a TON of players that can do it.
I think you have to factor in the hand checking in the 80s and 90s too. The shots were definitely more contested back in the day, which may mean that the essential shooting skill (what I am calling it) was actually higher then. Just based on the eye test, it is pretty incredible how Steph and Trae Young can almost pull from anywhere passed half court, but it was also pretty impressive how Bird, Reggie Miller, and other great midrange shooters back in the day were pretty automatic coming off floppy sets and pin downs. I think you're right though that what the player practiced most translated into how they played on the court.
I feel like this video omitted a proper discussion about defence. Just off the top of my head, what difference does zone vs man marking make on 3pt attempts and makes? What about hip checking? I would guess that defense is, on average, tougher on outside shots today than it was in the 90s, for instance, when the focus was more about the painted area. Perhaps you considered all of this stuff and it ended up being negligible on the final data, but I would have appreciated a short discussion of it! Nonetheless, another great video
I agree, and also would like to point out that the concept of "spacing" is a premium in today's league. And the best way to create spacing is to have an 3pt threat who can make multiple 3's if you leave him open. You just don't get that with a long 2.
@@michaelhwang6025 That's a very good point. Duncan Robinson was consistently valuable in the finals even when not taking any shots for exactly that reason
Thank you for pointing out the relative inefficiency of shooting from modern deep range pre-3 pt line! I've had that argument a million times with people. Even for a great shooter, it just made no sense. It'd be like shooting consistently from 40 feet today before they institute a 4-pt line in 2040.
@@joshbelz2951lol 40 feet is a full 7 feet behind the arc. Steph, Dame, Lebron, etc. can and do take some shots from there but it’s nowhere near “consistently.” Compare with their sub-40-foot shots. The point is, until there is a 4-point-line, the game won’t fully incentivize shooting that far deep. There are some advantages (e.g. you still get the extra point from being behind the arc, it stretches out the defense, it can save energy if you’re older like Lebron, it’s unexpected and can be demoralizing to the opponent, etc.) but if they eventually do add a 4-point-line, guys will take so many more attempts from deep and maybe some smartass in 2060 will wonder why everyone in 2021 sucked at shooting.
In the Philippines we have a player named Atoy Co who is shooting long bombs even though the 3 pt line is not applied yet. He would've been a legend in outside shooting if he is in the league today.
When I was a kid I remember a reporter asking Dr J to compare himself to Rick Barry and he said the higher percentage shots are near the basket. He saw his reluctance to shoot outside as a superiority.
Video idea: ranking (or tiers) the best "sharpshooters" in the NBA the past few years up until now - including their overall game / overall value to a team, not just their shooting And not necessarily just 3 and D guys, so including players like Duncan Robinson who's not exactly a "D" guy at the moment And also assuming everyone's healthy, factoring in injuries after
You also can it is a result of players shifting from shooting 2 motion shots with some hang in the air compared to the todays more 1 motion quick and less lift on shot
Every player of the past would be dramatically better today with not only “this practice” But about a dozen other factors that would improve them that players today have.
“Mannn we talking about practice mannnn” “Not a game, not a game, but pracccccticeeeee” If this is true than Dwight Howard is lazy ASF mans could’ve had a good 3 by now 😂😭 cough cough: Demar DeRozan
Dwight apprently told a reporter that he could shoot it consintantly in a gym but doesnt shoot it in a game because he gets nervous and gets cold feet derozan is truely inexcusable tho
Its crazy that we will shoot the same % from 3 than back In the day but in the same token. Defences are more focused on stopping that 3 well some defences and were just more confident of taking contested 3s or deep 3s.
Great video as usual! Could you please work on a similar one to describe the other side of this spectrum: post skills.. since nowadays all players are training more in 3s, overall % can decline but on a so much higher volume does not mean they shoot worse, instead better as you said; but in opposite direction is going post game, so few players have elite footwork and post moves (hooks are dying) and even in today's nba a player could be decisive with good post skills (AD does fadeaways only and still can win a championship)
Fantastic video. As a community league coach, I can testify that young kids "self-practice' 3pt shooting way more than any other shooting.. or anything else really. You'll see a 11 year old trying to huff the ball at the 19'9" High School range for hours at a time at a rec center, but almost never see them line up 10' at baseline or at the 15' freethrow line and work on basic shot form. A lot of coaches try to help kids work on the short range fundamentals, however it seems like a losing battle as players spend almost all their free-time heaving 3pt attempts well before they are physically large enough to do it with proper technique. Now with everyone and their dog preaching 5 out offense even at pre-teen levels... which is an offense that relies on drives to open up kick-out 3pt shots.. there are a ton of kids who have terrible form and are pretty much just used for setting screens and maybe chasing rebounds. The flood gates are well past the point of return.. so this is just an old guy coach shaking his fist in the air... however I can understand how old school college and NBA coaches were not big fans of focusing on a 3pt centric game for such a long time.
I agree, and I see it more and more this decade as we get kids coming into the MS/HS or U15/U17 age teams who have terrible shooting form, bad shooting habits, etc. and yet are convinced they should be able to jack up reckless threes at will. One thing that I have found is that when you get a player today who is willing to practice post moves and can receive the ball in the low post, very few opponents can guard them effectively without fouling. Just some basic pivots and fakes can turn a willing player into the high school equivalent of Kevin McHale or Akeem Olajuwon compared to his or her peers, because his or her peers don't see or have to defend that sort of game regularly.
the only players that could hit pull up 3s back in the day were mark price, stockton and hornacek. now everyone does it. the shots have definitely gotten more difficult. you didn't see nearly as many off the dribble 3s either, which are harder than catch and shoot. shooting today is definitely better.
I often wonder how coaches, fans, and press would react if you transported 2020 Steph or Harden or Dame back to 1981 and unleashed them in that NBA. Obviously it would be mind blowing, but would people recognize the value?
You have the data to back up what I've been saying for a while. The 3 pointer didn't exist for 80's and 90's NBA players when they grew up (that is, when they played in youth leagues, HS, college). So they didn't grow up shooting this shot. All shots require practice to not only shoot it consistently, but to also get the footwork down to get the shot off cleanly and accurately. NBA players back then didn't have the practiced ability to make 3 pointers at an efficient and prolific rate. Also, coaches didn't see the value of the shot, so why would their players practice it? Modern NBA analytics values this shot, so players of all heights and positions have a reason to practice it and make it as part of the game. And whereas players from older generations only needed to get open for a 3 pointer in a few ways (with the most obvious being their defender just not contesting the shot because players tended to shoot it so poorly back then), modern 3 point shooters are always shooting against defenders contesting the shot. So the shooters are constantly developing new ways to get open and new footwork to get a good 3 point look.
“Outside shooting” %’s have been pretty similar since the 90’s. It’s just that players now take a few steps back from those long 2’s so now you have more screens closer to the 3 point line than the mid range area. Players today in general are better 3 point shooters but that’s more so a product of volume from analytics so they shoot more in games and in practice than any inherent shooting ability
@@FranciscoPizarro1475 Yes, "outside shooting%" 15 feet and beyond is similar, but not 3pt FG%. As you said, the players of yesteryear put the same amount of work and practice into the midrange shots as the shooters nowadays do with 3 pointers. That's the main difference. Another reason why players back then felt they needed to step inside the line for their shots was because they shot a higher midrange FG% (duh). It's that comfort that goes against what analytics says is better in terms of points-per-attempt. Players naturally feel more comfortable making shots than missing shots. Making a jump shot serves as a motivator and comfort tool, and the player feels more confident about taking and making the next jump shot. This comfort plagues players of all abilities, but especially role players with limited minutes and shot attempts. Role players often feel the pressure to make shots count during their limited minutes. The Heat's Duncan Robinson, for example, was originally hesitant to shoot earlier in his career because he was just a role player. So he felt that every shot he missed could have been an attempt by a better player. But his coaches convinced him that shooting was his main role, and he needed to keep shooting when he was open from 3, even if he wasn't making his shots that game. So analytics serves as a way to get players out of that midrange comfort zone and stretching their range past the 3 line. Analytics tells players that though it feels great to make midrange shots at a higher % than 3pt, your PPA from 3 point range is actually significantly higher. So go against your natural instinct to shoot a comfortable midrange shots, and work on 3 pointers.
@@Lewis.Alcindor You’re agreeing with me lol. Increased 3 point volume leads to increase %’s since it becomes a rhythm shot. That’s why Michael Jordan , an 83% free throw shooter, who shot 13-18% early in his career from 3 on 0.6-1 attempts a game ending up shooting 37% in 89-90 on 3 attempts a gam. It’s why Magic Johnson, an 85% free throw shooter, who shot 17-20% early in his career on .5 attempts a game had his peak season in 1989-90 where he shot 38% from 3 on 3.5 attempts a game.
The 3 point shooting form is much more like Bill Sharman than Elvin Hayes. In the 60's, the key was a quick, high release to get the shot off in traffic. In the 50's, they shot from the chest to get more momentum. Curry would have suffered a lot of blocked shots before the 3 pointer.
Your crusade for getting Aron Baynes' basketball-reference nickname updated marches on. I'm not sure this whole video wasn't just a subtle ploy to sink "Tippy Toes" Baynes in to a few more peoples' head.
![Blox Fruits Dragon Rework Update [Full Stream]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EqDAp8udhm0/mqdefault.jpg)
If you've never seen the whole thing, the entire "practice" press conference is incredible: ruclips.net/video/K9ZQhyOZCNE/видео.html
For context, there are claims he was a bit tipsy during the press conference. AI's best friend had passed away during the season, and there were trade rumors after a disappointing 1st round exit... www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29143112/the-little-known-story-allen-iverson-practice-rant
Ya think *that* was good (ok, it was), find the followup press conference by AI's mom and a couple of her friends... She did that a day or two later, defending AI's rant.
When the NBA started resting stars more to limit their usage and maximize their productivity I thought about Allen Iverson. A man his size, who played as fast and hard as he did led the NBA in minutes per game 7 times. The only player to do it more was Wilt Chamberlain (9 times), who was a physical freak. Next in line behind Iverson are LeBron James and Michael Finley with 3 each.
I would love to have seen him in a system/era that understood usage better, I think we'd have a different view of him and just how incredible he was.
11:20 Hypothetically, if that 4pt line was in place for a decade, would it be fair to "punish" those players in that decade for not utilizing it?
I think rules that protect the shooter and the elimination of hand checking should also be discussed, to shoot well from behind the arc you need space. Where as post up Mid-range shots you can use strength to generate the space to get a decent look. But you can't really do that from behind the arc you need to use your strength and mechanics to shoot the ball, you can't sacrifice as much that far away from the hoop, and hand checking and not allowing a player to land made shots outside the three point line harder. Of course that's only part of the story, because shooting mechanics and fundemtals are also different stepping into a two motion form as opposed to utilizing a hop to get a shot off because of forward momentum to try to get a defender off balance for a pull up now your guaranteed space, if a defender is in a shooter airspace they can be called for a foul. So generation of good 3 point looks have become a lot easier so coaches emphisize practicing catch and shoot behind three point line a lot more.
Qq
Your videos are ridiculously good. I can tell you put on a lot of effort during a very long period of time into the study of basketball. I'm glad you decided to share your knowledge with us.
It's unbelievable that this channel has few subscribers
@@avoiredranger110 I know😔. It’s because people are stupid and they’d rather see “pre 2000s players are plumbers haha Lebron 🐐, Tyler hero is a BUCKET 👀”
I mean it is called “Thinking Basketball”. Not tryna look like a dick just tryna make a joke
Happy that Aron Baynes is getting coverage on your channel, definitely the greatest ever
Best ginger in the nba??
@@jayzer150 best* in general
@@frinky21 😂 Fax. Everyone’s favorite player
@@frinky21 hold up, Brian Scalabrine!!!
@@sharifbrown3567 thats what I was gonna say 😂😂 the red mamba has already been forgotten 😤.
That sync up at the end of you saying “practice” with AI was so satisfying for some reason.
Thx for spoiling
Pause
So we are talking bout practice then?
Are we still talking about practice in 2020? Practice?
@@reagannichols8659 I always read the comments after watching the video, this is why...
Tom Chambers was the first NBA player standing 6'10 or taller to attempt at least one 3 point shot per game, which he did in 1986-87, averaging nearly two 3pt attempts per game and making 37% of them.
That is more of a testament to his coach than to him. Dražen Petrović was a guard who shot 45% from 3 and he wasn't even allowed 3 three point shots per game because NBA coaches were very smart back then /s
*Sees video title
Ben Simmons: Aight imma head out
He does practice them. He's just terrified of failing and looking bad in live games. Something he's gotta get over if he ever wants to elevate his career to the next level.
@@AchillesWrath1 he’s just “5 3pa per game” distance from being a superstar.
Louie Dampier was a trailblazer. Thank you, you're one of the few RUclipsrs to ever cite him!
He was shooting threes on Fastbreaks in the 1970s!
If you watch the colonels they really played more modern than even teams of the 90s you'd see more motion more shooting more screen plays with the dampier/ Gilmore tandem
Is that even advised today? With the exception of S Curry...
I tried to track Louie down but he's hard to find.
@@canucksfever for sure is depending on the situation. For example, if the offense has an extra player on a fast break (2 on 1, 3 on 2, etc.) and the defense focuses in on defending the guys closest to the rim, then a 3 isn't a terrible idea.
40 is a big number, James Har-
Wait what do you mean that's not the intro
He tried to finish the rest of the sentence in the playoffs but came up short like harden
I still can’t wrap my head around that Harden 2019 year when he took 13 threes and took 11 free throws per game. How u take a lot of 3s and get to the free throw line so much? Never cared about analytics before that Harden dominance but I started to understand the modern NBA better based on that year alone
@@jayzer150 Kawhi was asked by Lebron
Lebron : Give that guy a map where are you going?
Kawhi:Raptors
@@cia6520 “What’s this big red X next to LA you coming to play with me?!😁” -LBJ
*Insert Kawhi Laughing meme*
@@anthonycelestin3559 He took a lot of contested stepback 3s and got fouled on some of them, and you know a foul on a 3 pt shot warrants 3 FTAs, so he prolly didn't care about making them shots so much than just drawing the foul.
This kind of video is why I watch this channel and it's a great example of why RUclips is waaaay better than the usual TV talking heads on sports shows. It's intelligent research and informed opinion, instead of some "personality" loudly yelling at some other guys, "I think shooting was way better back in my day, and here's why...also Lebron is good/bad".
It all has a place
Skip, stephen A etc is just entertainment, not meant to be taken seriously
@@moltenn7 creates hella casuals though
Day 452 of getting ridiculously hyped everyday this man drops some heat 🔥🔥🔥
I think, when comparing eras, the converse has to be taken into account as well. If today's players spend more time practicing the three, it stands to reason that yesterday's players spent more time practicing post moves, lay-ups, etc. It goes both ways.
Or their off-season jobs if you go back a while . . .
Thats why ThinkingBasketball compares era relative impact. Its the only thing thats actually measurable.
I think the effect of that would be less though, because those shots are objectively easier, being much closer to the hoop. You don’t need as much practice to get good at a 10 foot jumper as a 25 foot jumper.
I'm way late to the party but this was exactly what I thought watching this.
@@docd2295 it's not just a 10 foot jumper; it's balance, footwork, etc. I wouldn't say Karl Anthony Towns' offensive game takes more practice than Olajuwon's did, despite it being, on average, much farther from the basket.
I watch a Thinking Basketball video and leave not only more informed and better equipped for intelligent basketball conversations, but more mentally and emotionally sound, and more spiritually pure and fulfilled.
People who say players back then would shoot all bricks from three today need to see this.
This video featured two of my fave shooters: Mark Price and Glen Rice. Those dudes were deadeye shooters. Ray Allen and Klay Thompson are as close to perfect shooters as you can get stylistically speaking. Their form and follow thru are nearly flawless.
YES HE POSTED
I've always been a shooter but there's something different bout watching post play, I miss it. It's rare now. Now you get towns vs Embiid and they're chucking up threes
That's one thing I dislike about the current game -- not just less post play but also few medium range Js. Sure the 3 is an additional point, but it seems like a lot of players have just given up on 2s. One sets up the other -- if you only shoot 3s I think you're leaving money on the table.
*Thinking Basketball releases a new video
*Happy Basketball fan noises*
the crumpled jumper art is suchhhhh a good addition to these videos
Always wonder how much a better scorer KG would've been if he made the move behind the line. Probably another 3-4 ppg.
Definitely, also young KG could handle the ball at times so he'll have more room to dominate too
I doubt hed average 3.5 3FGM per game
@@mikegribanov6105 Increasing your scoring volume can decrease your overall efficiency but when it comes to 3 point shooting particularly, when transitioning from analytics, increasing your 3 point volume will increase your 3 point efficiency.
Look at Michael Jordan, an 83% free throw shooter . His early seasons he was shooting 17-18% from 3 point but on 0.6-1 attempts a game so they were probably full/half court heaves or chucks at the end of the shot clock. When you look at his highest volume 3 point seasons, those were the seasons where his most efficient. 42 and 37% with a shortened 3 point line and 35 and 37% with a normal 3 point line on 3 attempts a game. As a matter of fact, Jordan never shot under 35%, when he took two more 3's a game.
How about magic Johnson, an 85% free throw shooter ? Same story . 17-20% early in his career on .4 attempts and then in 89-90 where he took 3.5 attempts , he shot 38% from 3.
Let's take Lamarcus Aldridge a modern player for example. He's an 81% FT shooter. Last season , took .5 attempts a game on 23% and then finally took the plunge into morey ball this season and is now shooting 38% on 3 attempts a game.
When it becomes a rhythm shot for players, they actually shoot better. It's Further from the basket, so less contested than long 2's and is a higher value shot than a long 2.
@@NothingElseMattersJM what are you talking about ? There was 6 players in the league that made 3.5 or more 3s last year. Trae Young made 3.4.. In order to average 3-4 more points a game Garnett would have to turn 3-4 of his made 2 point shots into three point shots, since a 3 is one point more than a 2. Considering I'm not even sure KG averaged 3-4 made jump shots per game period, I highly doubt hed be one of half a dozen most voluminous 3pt shooters in the league
@@mikegribanov6105 I never said he would make 3.5 3’s a game.I said he’d be shooting more at a higher %. Nowhere did I say a power forward is going to shoot as many 3’s as Trae Young. What are you talking about KG didn’t make 3-4 jumpshot a a game? You clearly never watched him play lol.
BRILLIANT!!! thanks for this vid, ben. long time listener/viewer, and i always feel comfort when you wish us a great day at the end :) as always, your basketball (and life) insights aren’t terrible lol.
great video. important concept. I'd argue shooting form standardization especially among upcoming big men could have a profound effect on the game though, which is another practice based evolution.
Great stuff. Thanks for this beautiful work!
Crazy how I was watching a playoff game earlier from 2011 with stats showing Memphis last in 3pa with just 10 a game. Nowadays that's how much some stars shoot in a single half.
The 2011 Mavericks changed the league with 3s. They broke all the records that year
Awesome video! Can you do one about the actual shooting mechanics and how it has evolved through the years? That would be something to see
Truly the best channel on RUclips
This is the best BBall channel and its not even close
Best Basketball youtuber by far!
This also goes hand in hand with how you defend the shot, as more 3s are being taken the better the players are at defending it making the average % level out or even decline.
My day always gets slightly better at the end of your videos
I love this! It's such a great focus on the importance of practice and how little ppl change. I love that Ted Talk
That ray Allen three against the bulls was amazing
Anytime Thinking Basketball uploads it’s a good day!
I played soccer since elementary school and I definitely feel the difference of the ball over the years. Gradually increase my overall performance
we need to talk about how shooting form has changed just like the volume of shots taken have changed. guys used two motion shots before that was good for midrange but now three point shooters use one motion shots that are good for three point shooting. that is just as big a factor as volume of attempts.
Really interesting.
Volume more than anything. Magic Johnson an 85% free throw point shooter shot 17-20% from 3 on .4 attempts a game in his early seasons. When he took 3.5 attempts a game in 89-90, he shot 38% from 3 lol.
Nothing I look forward to more than a new video from you, absolutely amazing content and insight, really feel I learn so much about basketball which is much more nuanced than football.
Waking up to a warm cup of coffee and a new Thinking Basketball video. Definitely starting my day right.
This is a brilliiant, well-researched video.
cool vid man. I think this range creep outside the 3pt line will eventually bring back room for the mid-range specialists in teams in the future.
I miss seeing a variety of scoring strategies in the NBA, the increased use of the 3 point shot has made the NBA less creative offensively. I feel the three point line should be modified. Instead of curving around to the corners - the three point line should be painted straight horizontally across the court (23'9 feet at center). This would make it more a "specialty shot" like it used to be (less common). And it would increase the effectiveness of players who develop strong post and midrange games. Most importantly it makes watching basketball less predictable and boring (as it is when players hover only on the perimeter). It opens the game to more variety of offensive strategy, it separates the truly unique 3 point bombers from the average shooters and it makes the 3 point shot special again.
I must say I really like how it allows golden state type offenses to space the floor fluidly, with cuts and motion leading to jaw-dropping shots, as opposed to just backing down in the post every time. How would spacing work with no three point shot? Fair point though I see where you’re coming from
@@jaymz18 Regarding spacing - I'm not proposing to get rid of the three point line - i'm proposing that the line not wrap around in an arc shape to the corners - but instead, be a straight line horizontal across the court. What this does primarily is decrease the analytical value of the 3 point shot - by getting rid of the highest percentage area of the court (the corners). It means PJ tucker can't just hang out in the corner and shoot threes (those would only count as two from that spot on the court). It means we wouldn't see teams assembled like the Rockets (because 3 pointers are harder to make at a high percentage). It means players like Giannis, Simmons, Embiid wouldn't be pressured to learn how to hit a 3 in order to stay relevant. In short - the 3 point shot holds too much influence and power over the game - because players have become better shooters - and so the shot itself needs to be made harder. Warriors basketball (which I love also) would still exist, players wouldn't post everytime, they would simply post more. Right now analytics tell coaches post players are not as efficient as three point shots - that's a problem for Centers primarily. So this is me looking out for centers and making sure there is value in every skill set (not just shooting 3s). But I agree with you - I wouldn't want to see post back downs "everytime" either - the goal in the end is to create enough variety and room on the court for as many unique skill sets as the NBA players have to offer.
It would be extremely interesting to see a more guard focus video that digs into the distance the best sharpshooters are yanking the ball up from and how that has impacted spacing on defense
1:17 I clicked in the video just for this moment... because i knew it was coming 😂😂😂.
Man, we need Thinking Basketball and JxmyHighRoller to collab one day. These charts has been their forte and that's great and mesmerizing.
Just did some quick research into Louie Dampier. Didn't know he led the ABA in all-time points and assists. I wonder if anyone ever asked why he took fewer 3s?
"The game plan changed when we finally started getting the big guys," Dampier said. "Getting the ball inside, even though it wasn't said 'hey Louie, take less 3s,' but there was an emphasis on getting the ball into the big guys to make our offense more effective."
@@back2back379 in defense of the plan, they did wind up winning their first aba title in their later years i think 75
@@57wookie I don’t know why you’d have to defend it when I didn’t say anything against it. All I did was just literally quote him word for word.
@@back2back379 I'm sorry I wasn't saying you were, but I was just thinking that a modern lens would view that strategy unfavorably
@@57wookie ah I see. Although if you've got an Artis Gilmore sooting 58% FG, 62% TS, I don't think even by the modern lens people would really complain.
Great video as always!
Another thoughtful deep dive. Well done. One thing though -as Much as the AI trope is not gonna go away, take a look at the end of the 30 for 30 on Iverson. It neatly dispels the insinuation that AI was lazy or a Diva. In fact, AI says, in his own words, how important practice is to his success. And yet, the dig at him won't go away because he had been misunderstood and expressed his frustration without poise and the media cast him as the villain. Oh well....
aron baynes fan club gonna go crazy for this one
This number didn't really address the TYPES of threes being taken now. Before the Splash Brothers, the only people I saw consistently make off the dribble threes were Stockton, Price and Hornacek. Now, there are a TON of players that can do it.
Amazing video. Thanks!
quality content keep it up man !
I think you have to factor in the hand checking in the 80s and 90s too. The shots were definitely more contested back in the day, which may mean that the essential shooting skill (what I am calling it) was actually higher then. Just based on the eye test, it is pretty incredible how Steph and Trae Young can almost pull from anywhere passed half court, but it was also pretty impressive how Bird, Reggie Miller, and other great midrange shooters back in the day were pretty automatic coming off floppy sets and pin downs. I think you're right though that what the player practiced most translated into how they played on the court.
I feel like this video omitted a proper discussion about defence. Just off the top of my head, what difference does zone vs man marking make on 3pt attempts and makes? What about hip checking? I would guess that defense is, on average, tougher on outside shots today than it was in the 90s, for instance, when the focus was more about the painted area. Perhaps you considered all of this stuff and it ended up being negligible on the final data, but I would have appreciated a short discussion of it! Nonetheless, another great video
I agree, and also would like to point out that the concept of "spacing" is a premium in today's league. And the best way to create spacing is to have an 3pt threat who can make multiple 3's if you leave him open. You just don't get that with a long 2.
@@michaelhwang6025 That's a very good point. Duncan Robinson was consistently valuable in the finals even when not taking any shots for exactly that reason
Thank you for pointing out the relative inefficiency of shooting from modern deep range pre-3 pt line! I've had that argument a million times with people. Even for a great shooter, it just made no sense. It'd be like shooting consistently from 40 feet today before they institute a 4-pt line in 2040.
You mean exactly like guys like Steph, Trae, Dame etc. do??
@@joshbelz2951lol 40 feet is a full 7 feet behind the arc. Steph, Dame, Lebron, etc. can and do take some shots from there but it’s nowhere near “consistently.” Compare with their sub-40-foot shots.
The point is, until there is a 4-point-line, the game won’t fully incentivize shooting that far deep. There are some advantages (e.g. you still get the extra point from being behind the arc, it stretches out the defense, it can save energy if you’re older like Lebron, it’s unexpected and can be demoralizing to the opponent, etc.) but if they eventually do add a 4-point-line, guys will take so many more attempts from deep and maybe some smartass in 2060 will wonder why everyone in 2021 sucked at shooting.
In the Philippines we have a player named Atoy Co who is shooting long bombs even though the 3 pt line is not applied yet. He would've been a legend in outside shooting if he is in the league today.
When I was a kid I remember a reporter asking Dr J to compare himself to Rick Barry and he said the higher percentage shots are near the basket. He saw his reluctance to shoot outside as a superiority.
Video idea: ranking (or tiers) the best "sharpshooters" in the NBA the past few years up until now - including their overall game / overall value to a team, not just their shooting
And not necessarily just 3 and D guys, so including players like Duncan Robinson who's not exactly a "D" guy at the moment
And also assuming everyone's healthy, factoring in injuries after
This the 3 point era and the Lakers won with big men game, they were among the last ten teams in 3 point shooting in 2020.
Aron 🐐 Baynes
That editing with Allen Iverson as if you were talking to him back and forth
The Thumbs up is blue now
fun fact: Aaron Baynes has the suns's record for most 3's in game😈
the Costanza clip killed me. great vid
Props for mentioning Jason Kapono
You also can it is a result of players shifting from shooting 2 motion shots with some hang in the air compared to the todays more 1 motion quick and less lift on shot
I just really admire your videos. Do you have a book? I’d buy it immediately
Yes! www.amazon.com/Thinking-Basketball-Ben-Taylor/dp/1532968175
@@ThinkingBasketball awesome!
Excellent video!
I keep being shocked everytime I see the jump in threes attempts as soon as splash bros enter their prime in 2014
already here, you already know what it is
Every player of the past would be dramatically better today with not only “this practice”
But about a dozen other factors that would improve them that players today have.
sam perkins was maybe the 1st big man dropping 3s, but his release was so slow. huge difference with todays guys,
I gotta say, I miss the usual music so much more. I hope you go back to it.
Why would you use "3's per 75 possessions" as a stat to try and grab our attention? That just obfuscates the point you're trying to make.
bubbleheads are so accurate its breathtaking.
Good stuff! I just listened to your podcast on current top 10 passers. Would love to see/hear a breakdown on retired greats like Nash!
I prefer the previous background music, but still a great video.
“Mannn we talking about practice mannnn”
“Not a game, not a game, but pracccccticeeeee”
If this is true than Dwight Howard is lazy ASF mans could’ve had a good 3 by now 😂😭 cough cough: Demar DeRozan
@Chikolum omg that shot made me so happy for him 😂😂
Dwight apprently told a reporter that he could shoot it consintantly in a gym but doesnt shoot it in a game because he gets nervous and gets cold feet derozan is truely inexcusable tho
@@sarperkizilkaya4531 yeah demar could be so good ‼️‼️
@@jayzer150 Derozan is good at threes when he shoots a lot of them, he just prefers to dominate the midrange
@@jeremyhalla1757 Yeah. He had a season that was above average from 3. He can shoot them, but for some reason he doesn't.
0:04 that flying knee to the chest by A.D. G.G
Its crazy that we will shoot the same % from 3 than back In the day but in the same token. Defences are more focused on stopping that 3 well some defences and were just more confident of taking contested 3s or deep 3s.
Great video as usual! Could you please work on a similar one to describe the other side of this spectrum: post skills.. since nowadays all players are training more in 3s, overall % can decline but on a so much higher volume does not mean they shoot worse, instead better as you said; but in opposite direction is going post game, so few players have elite footwork and post moves (hooks are dying) and even in today's nba a player could be decisive with good post skills (AD does fadeaways only and still can win a championship)
This channel is so good that I wish I could subscribe twice!!
AI would lose his mind listening to the amount of times 'practice' has been uttered in this video!
LOVE YOUR VIDS
The improvement in 3s seems more likely given the more emphasis on defending the 3s.
how do you get access to all this basketball data?
4:51 that GM should've had actual hard time in hitting those 3s he recorded from others with those small arms :D
7 three point attempts by a player in 1969 is crazy. PS I was inspired to start making NBA videos too🥶
I cannot believe that this is free
😁 Costanza got me love your vids buddy boiiiii
Fantastic video. As a community league coach, I can testify that young kids "self-practice' 3pt shooting way more than any other shooting.. or anything else really. You'll see a 11 year old trying to huff the ball at the 19'9" High School range for hours at a time at a rec center, but almost never see them line up 10' at baseline or at the 15' freethrow line and work on basic shot form. A lot of coaches try to help kids work on the short range fundamentals, however it seems like a losing battle as players spend almost all their free-time heaving 3pt attempts well before they are physically large enough to do it with proper technique.
Now with everyone and their dog preaching 5 out offense even at pre-teen levels... which is an offense that relies on drives to open up kick-out 3pt shots.. there are a ton of kids who have terrible form and are pretty much just used for setting screens and maybe chasing rebounds.
The flood gates are well past the point of return.. so this is just an old guy coach shaking his fist in the air... however I can understand how old school college and NBA coaches were not big fans of focusing on a 3pt centric game for such a long time.
I agree, and I see it more and more this decade as we get kids coming into the MS/HS or U15/U17 age teams who have terrible shooting form, bad shooting habits, etc. and yet are convinced they should be able to jack up reckless threes at will.
One thing that I have found is that when you get a player today who is willing to practice post moves and can receive the ball in the low post, very few opponents can guard them effectively without fouling. Just some basic pivots and fakes can turn a willing player into the high school equivalent of Kevin McHale or Akeem Olajuwon compared to his or her peers, because his or her peers don't see or have to defend that sort of game regularly.
I find it ironic that Steph Curry and James Harden are their only models, yet they'll end up shooting like Ben Simmons
the only players that could hit pull up 3s back in the day were mark price, stockton and hornacek. now everyone does it. the shots have definitely gotten more difficult. you didn't see nearly as many off the dribble 3s either, which are harder than catch and shoot. shooting today is definitely better.
Always wanted to see
PG - LeBron
SG - Ray Allen
SF - Klay
PF - Durant
C - Shaq
Ben you're wonderful. Baynsey is from Queensland Australia my man. Aussie, not Kiwi.
Baynes is a tough guy but god damn he has been banged on so many times lol
Thanks
Great video! What’s the name of the song in the background?
I often wonder how coaches, fans, and press would react if you transported 2020 Steph or Harden or Dame back to 1981 and unleashed them in that NBA. Obviously it would be mind blowing, but would people recognize the value?
They would be traded for a fax machine
You have the data to back up what I've been saying for a while.
The 3 pointer didn't exist for 80's and 90's NBA players when they grew up (that is, when they played in youth leagues, HS, college). So they didn't grow up shooting this shot. All shots require practice to not only shoot it consistently, but to also get the footwork down to get the shot off cleanly and accurately. NBA players back then didn't have the practiced ability to make 3 pointers at an efficient and prolific rate. Also, coaches didn't see the value of the shot, so why would their players practice it?
Modern NBA analytics values this shot, so players of all heights and positions have a reason to practice it and make it as part of the game. And whereas players from older generations only needed to get open for a 3 pointer in a few ways (with the most obvious being their defender just not contesting the shot because players tended to shoot it so poorly back then), modern 3 point shooters are always shooting against defenders contesting the shot. So the shooters are constantly developing new ways to get open and new footwork to get a good 3 point look.
“Outside shooting” %’s have been pretty similar since the 90’s. It’s just that players now take a few steps back from those long 2’s so now you have more screens closer to the 3 point line than the mid range area. Players today in general are better 3 point shooters but that’s more so a product of volume from analytics so they shoot more in games and in practice than any inherent shooting ability
@@FranciscoPizarro1475
Yes, "outside shooting%" 15 feet and beyond is similar, but not 3pt FG%. As you said, the players of yesteryear put the same amount of work and practice into the midrange shots as the shooters nowadays do with 3 pointers. That's the main difference.
Another reason why players back then felt they needed to step inside the line for their shots was because they shot a higher midrange FG% (duh). It's that comfort that goes against what analytics says is better in terms of points-per-attempt. Players naturally feel more comfortable making shots than missing shots. Making a jump shot serves as a motivator and comfort tool, and the player feels more confident about taking and making the next jump shot.
This comfort plagues players of all abilities, but especially role players with limited minutes and shot attempts. Role players often feel the pressure to make shots count during their limited minutes. The Heat's Duncan Robinson, for example, was originally hesitant to shoot earlier in his career because he was just a role player. So he felt that every shot he missed could have been an attempt by a better player. But his coaches convinced him that shooting was his main role, and he needed to keep shooting when he was open from 3, even if he wasn't making his shots that game.
So analytics serves as a way to get players out of that midrange comfort zone and stretching their range past the 3 line. Analytics tells players that though it feels great to make midrange shots at a higher % than 3pt, your PPA from 3 point range is actually significantly higher. So go against your natural instinct to shoot a comfortable midrange shots, and work on 3 pointers.
@@Lewis.Alcindor You’re agreeing with me lol. Increased 3 point volume leads to increase %’s since it becomes a rhythm shot. That’s why Michael Jordan , an 83% free throw shooter, who shot 13-18% early in his career from 3 on 0.6-1 attempts a game ending up shooting 37% in 89-90 on 3 attempts a gam. It’s why Magic Johnson, an 85% free throw shooter, who shot 17-20% early in his career on .5 attempts a game had his peak season in 1989-90 where he shot 38% from 3 on 3.5 attempts a game.
@@FranciscoPizarro1475
Yeah, basically agreeing. Not all replies are rebuttals.
The 3 point shooting form is much more like Bill Sharman than Elvin Hayes. In the 60's, the key was a quick, high release to get the shot off in traffic. In the 50's, they shot from the chest to get more momentum. Curry would have suffered a lot of blocked shots before the 3 pointer.
Not gonna lie - my head is spinning after this one 😂
Why?
Looool why tf was Wilt shooting his free throws from so damn far
Skrong
I don't know, but he did it constantly in Los Angeles and it cracked me up every time.
@@ThinkingBasketball Loool this guy was shooting 3s before it was cool
Matthew Isabella he too strong normal free throw clack on the board
Great video but you gotta go back to the old background music lol
Your crusade for getting Aron Baynes' basketball-reference nickname updated marches on. I'm not sure this whole video wasn't just a subtle ploy to sink "Tippy Toes" Baynes in to a few more peoples' head.