Ok so just wanted to pop in and clarify a few things: 1. I am working on a video about souls and the Kris-Chara-Frisk connection, it will take some time as it is longer than this one and it was put on the back burner for a couple of weeks due to personal reasons. 2. I made this video because it is a topic I am passionate about, not only because I am nb, but more importantly, because UT was one of the first "out and proud" pieces of media that I consumed as a teenager. Most of the concepts discussed in this video were eye-opening when first plying UT, it really helped me become more accepting of the queer community and ultimately myself. 3. I did not make this video as a hit piece on anyone who doesn't think like me regarding a character's gender canonicity, I just wanted to express my opinion and provide some good arguments to support it. I don't hate anyone who disagrees with me, as long as we can have a civil conversation. I did have to delete some nasty comments that I specifically said in my video will not be tolerated, regarding bigotry and hate. 4. I never expected this video to get the traction it recieved, it really warms my heart to see comments supporting what I do and I am humbled that somebody took the time to watch me ramble for 10 minutes. Thanks for reading, see you soon!
Something I like about Frisk is that they are fully ambiguous. They don’t have a set gender or race, or age. They’re just a human kid who fell down. And while I personally see them as nonbinary, I understand why some people see them differently. In the last conversation I was in about Chara, I remember someone bringing up that their family fully uses they/them and that they sometimes use it pronouns for themselves. Prior to that I had been approaching them similarly to Frisk, but this made me realize that Chara is a lot further narratively from the player than Frisk is. For Kris, it’s pretty clear that they are genderqueer and probably nonbinary. A lot of the discourse about Kris makes me sad because while all of this discourse does stem from transphobia, Kris is where it gets the worst. Kris is explicitly separate from the player. Saying that their gender is up to interpretation helps perpetuate a harmful rhetoric that nonbinary identities aren’t valid. When I first found Undertale, I didn’t understand much about queer identity. One of the first things I asked my brother as we started the game was if Frisk was a boy or girl. He told me that they weren’t either, so anybody could play as them. For many people, I suspect Undertale might have been their introduction to the concept of being nonbinary. For me, it was. I am so glad that now that I’m older I have hyperfixated on Undertale and Deltarune again. I’m glad because I can finally understand little things, like Napstablook being nonbinary, or the trans allegory woven into the Mettaton and Mew Mew’ stories. As a bi girl, I now realize that the treatment of Undyne and Alphys was very helpful to me. And I also can notice special things now, like how Asriel wears what’s basically a dress in his God of Hyperdeath form, or how Susie disregards gender norms. All that’s to say, Undertale and Deltarune are undeniably queer games. I’m glad I get a chance to experience them.
I feel like Toby is being more blatant with Kris’s identity, and there will potentially be a confrontation towards the player about misgendering them. Basically, it’s really interesting (and sad) how people/players quickly misgendering Kris is kind of part of the story? Like, it’s just another way we, as the player, take away their autonomy. Also, I don’t have the data, but I swear Toby is intentionally using They/Them pronouns for Kris more often and blatantly, taking advantage of the party system. TLDR: Undertale/Deltarune is so bloody queer, it’s basically a love story to the queer community. And I bet Toby is going to use players tendency to automatically gender an “indeterminately gendered” main character, as a plot point when the issue of control becomes a bigger and more obvious plot point. And I’m all here for it. :3
Something I find especially ridiculous concerning Kris’ gender, is that I’ve almost never seen she/her used on them- even by girls (outside of the very occasional “genderbend” type stuff). It’s almost like people don’t really care about the relatability of Kris and instead just want to enforce cis gender norms on them, especially with ships like Krusie and Kriselle which are heterowashed to hell. In fact this happens to characters like Napstablook/Monster Kid/Seam/etc too
The same could be said in the opposite. Because while we can analyze a creator's intentions, without a direct statement of confirmation, it is also true that people could be just wanting to enforce non-cis gender norms on Kris. I think the reason you say that Kris is more boyish probably comes from intrinsic character design. Looks armored like a night with a sword, choice of the color blue in the dark world, "Kris" sounds more like "Chris" when spoken than an abbreviation of "Chrissy", "Christian" or "Kristina" or the similar. Has friendly interest in Susie who is sort of tomboyish with her taste, implying similar taste. Interest in videogames, knives (which is something a lot of boys like as kids), craftsmanship show by wanting to make knives by hand. It only makes sense that's how fans would view Kris, regardless of anything. It's people who say that Kris is being pushed into male depiction who are wanting to assume his/her/their roll.
I have also been guilty of this, as a child/teenager I wasn't exposed to any queer discourse IRL or in fiction and on top of that, my native language doesn't have gender neutral pronouns, so I stuck to he/him as a default. I do not condemn people that have done this, as psychological patriarchy is something that plays a role in many interpretations of art, but I hope we can collectively let go of this pointless and harmful masculinization in the future.
It's also weird how Frisk and Chara are always portrayed as girls by most UT fans just so they can be shipped with Sans and Asriel. Heterowashing at its finest lol (with a side of inc*st and p*dophilia 💀)
@@AlphaHaze I hate artwork that makes them super curvy and feminine -_- it’s also always female Chara/Frisk with a male character and male Chara/Frisk with a female character in terms of shipping too 😭
Some people have already mentioned that Lancer's dialogue could also be interpreted as meaning Kris might be a girl ("cookie and wife", "boys or girls"). And there's also some evidence that indicates that Kris could be a boy, mainly the shampoo at their home which is specifically for boys. There is also a lot of evidence they don't have a gender/don't fit in the gender binary (Toby's comments(I think? We'll discount this one for now), as well as the fact that everyone exclusively refers to Kris as "they/them"). Conclusion? Kris is a being that exists beyond gender itself, and is in fact a Cuban Cigar, making them Frisk's canonical love interest, which THEREFORE means AN OLDER FRISK is THE ROARING KNIGHT! And Kris will stop their rampage through the POWER OF LOVE!!11!!!
*At most,* I feel like Frisk and Chara could *technically* be "ambiguous" or "up for interpretation." I will always be firmly that Kris does not apply to this given what Deltarune has established about who they are as a character separate from us. Edit: To be clear, I don't necessarily think this is the case for Frisk or Chara, but I suppose it's a bit more vague with them. But Kris, no.
I didn't go too much into detail with Kris because I thought it was the most obvious where it stands. When it comes to Undertale humans, I do think it is more vague, but there's still a lot of evidence supporting gender individuality.
@@tanyas. Agreed. It often is a bit frustrating that Undertale and Deltarune are games that have really good lgbt rep that is often ignored. But, y'know, if it WAS outright said, it would be "shoving it in our faces" according to a lot of fans :/
@@michaelvanmeter6984 Kris's gender being up to the player simply wouldn't make sense with the entire theme of their character. Their own mother refers to them by they/them, and the only gendered term they are referred to in the entire game is when Lancer declares them "cookie and wife" but I somehow doubt that counts. Specifically, Toby made a character who, while you initially think is just a self-insert, you eventually learn that they are their own person. The traits they have are their own, and not up for you to decide. They had a life before you came along and sometimes outright disagree with things you make them say or do. Wouldn't this entirely fall apart if Kris's gender was an exception? It's also worth noting that Toby *corrected* the fangamers when they misgendered Kris accidentally in the anniversary stream. Several times during the stream, Toby is able to reply to things said in as little as 2-3 seconds if it's a short reply. TTS delay does not apply here. Toby repeats what the fangamers said, except with the correct pronouns, 5 seconds later. Obviously Toby isn't gonna make a big deal about it in front of thousands of people, but repeating what was said but with the correct pronouns is correcting someone. By your own logic, Toby could not make a character that is intended to be non-binary unless the game (or him) outright says "This character is non-binary". But that's not something Toby would do. Alphys is clearly attracted to men and women, but she's never referred to as bi or pan. Noelle is attracted to women, but she's never referred to as a lesbian (or bi or pan). Mettaton and Mad Mew Mew are both trans, but the term "transgender" is never used. There's even a random Lioness npc who was confirmed to be trans upon Deltarune's release as she was referred to as a waitress. The game doesn't go out of its way to scream in your face, "this characer is trans" but it's there and it's great to see it regardless. Toby doesn't use labels, and portrays a world in his games where LGBT people are just the norm.
@@michaelvanmeter6984 And what you may not understand is that while there is rep that is subtle enough in both games to be missed, that doesn't mean it's not important. LGBT representation is important. Specifically, non-binary representation is very important and not something you see often in media.
@@michaelvanmeter6984 I'm also unsure what you would *want* Toby to do if he did intend Kris to be non-binary. By your own logic, correcting people or going out of your way to say Kris is non-binary would be shoving it in our faces. This is exactly what Deltatraveler did; they corrected someone once or twice, and made something for Pride Month. But that is too much for you. But having the character exist, with thematic reasons why they cannot be "ambiguous" is not enough for you for some bizaare reason. Even though this is how *all* LGBT representation in both Undertale and Deltarune is handled. And I enjoy that, as an LGBT person.
I'm noticing all these comments about how Kris is explicitly less ambiguous than Frisk and Chara, and to me it really cements the fact that Toby wrote all three of them as genderqueer in some capacity. If you go to the library in deltarune and read the review for Mew Mew Kissy Cutie 2, it describes how the themes of this successor to the original are more mature, with a darker storyline. It also makes a nod to the protagonist's character in the original, describing (crudely) how less interesting it is compared to that of the new release. It sounds very familiar to Undertale (the original) and Deltarune (the successor). Deltarune's storyline is shaping up to be darker, yet darker than the original, in the first two chapters themselves. And on that note, there is observably much more to Kris's character thank Frisk's. It's almost like Toby is saying "Hey, I wrote Frisk a certain way but the nuance wasn't communicated, so I'm going to make it much more clear with Kris." I'm not saying Frisk is Kris. But I do think their characters do share some traits, and being genderqueer/non-binary is one of them. It's just more fleshed out with Kris than it was with Frisk. As for Chara, I'd like to add on to the points you made about their characterisation. There is strong evidence for the fact that Chara is the narrator of all of Undertale and its routes. [[ web.archive.org/web/20171121011938/determinators.tumblr.com/post/159674581147/greetings-uh-so-ive-been-working-on-this ]] That just adds to the fact that they have a very canon personality and thus gender identity. That aside, the player being able to name Chara actually in a way cements their identity further. Chara is, in some way, the lens or viewpoint you see Undertale through (especially if you believe in the Narrator Chara theory). It's a bit like how when you play Earthbound, you view the events of the game through the lens of Ness. Keeping the Chara-Ness comparison in mind... in the beginning of Earthbound, you get to name Ness as well (and all the other characters in your party). But even if we can name him, that doesn't change the fact that Ness is canonically a boy, is referred to as such, and uses he/him. It should follow that even if we can name Chara, it does not change the fact that Chara is canonically genderqueer/non-binary, not referred to with any gendered terms, and uses they/them. anyway rambling aside the KFC trio lead to my non binary awakening and i feel called out at 10:55 thank you for this video happy pride
Love the points you brought up! Also, I know about the theory of Chara being the narrator, but, while I do tend to agree with it(someting that I'm tackling in my next video), I didn't want to bring more doubt to my theory, since not everybody agrees with that and there still was enough evidence imo to characterise them without that interpretation. I really like the Earthbound parallels, I think they are very fitting!
@@tanyas.I'm glad you liked it!! I was also debating bringing up NarraChara, I went with it because... I really love NarraChara lol. If it's real it's so well done and the implications are so interesting AUGH Chara is generally so fascinating. I really believe they're sort of supposed to be Undertale's counterpart to Ness/Link/A Pokémon game's protagonist. Like a player charcter but not exactly. I think deltarune might also play off of that, with the Vessel you create vs. the character you are assigned to control. I've been rotating thoughts about this in my mind for a while which is why I made the Ness comparison :D Also, looking forward to the next video!!
I think the main point is that Toby Fox intended the characters to be separate from the player while still being relatable to everyone. He doesn't want the player to have any control over the character's gender, as that would make them feel less like actual characters separate from the player, because that's the twist with all three of them.
It sounds interesting, but why then they would make Kris and Frisk so literal empty, no emotions, no even personality, and why Toby would let you decide Chara Name If the purpose is that Frisk, Chara and Kris identity has been already writed? Is obvious that he is recurring to the typical dev decision of making their characters with 0 dialogues the most NEUTRAL posible so you can identify as them. There is nothing wrong and doesn't affect the narrative too. Because is different > identify an character as the way you see it Not means > That that character has an own story and individual control that is basically the main plot. Like literal Niko of Oneshot, we can say is the same situation. Their gender is literally genderless.
@@URIEL-ii4jw They’re not emotionless, though. Kris is stated to be afraid of the “bunker,” and expresses themself in a number of ways. They clearly have a personality and backstory. Besides this, no “Silent” protagonist is ever truly emotionless so long as there is dialogue that pertains to them. Not quite sure what you’re trying to say with the rest of that though.
@@URIEL-ii4jw Kris has "no emotions, no even personality", you say? Ah yes, Kris, who repeatedly pranked Noelle in the past, gets mad that they can't play the piano for Susie, has several unusual search queries manifested in their room in Queen's Mansion, and who _literally shouts that they're not okay_ after the Spamton NEO fight, is *_toootally_* bereft of all emotions or personality. And to the "Toby lets you decide Chara's name, so their gender is up to the player" thing: that's like saying Link's gender is up to the player because Link is meant to represent the player, and you can name Link whatever you want in most of the games. Like, no, Link is definitely a boy in most iterations (BotW/TotK play with it a lot more, but he's still clearly referred to by everyone as he/him). Heck, Kris is a lot like BotW Link in that way: you don't get to name them, and while we don't actually get to read their dialogue (unless we're making a choice for them), they're clearly talking, and still clearly have their own personalities (heck, BotW Link has some of the _most_ character and personality of any Link). Plus, Chara _isn't_ a representation of the player; they simply embody the tone of the route (the No Mercy monologue is them talking to you as a separate being, and if you do the route a second time, Chara literally says "You and I are not the same").
I really hope that the game tries to bait the player into referring to Kris as a boy or a girl but if you select either of those it deletes your save file Or I hope Toby has something specifically to call out those "Kris's gender is up for interpretation" people. Considering how Deltarune specifically seems to be tackling the player/protagonist separation as a major theme, I can totally see him doing something along those lines (also nice remembering that Alphys is bi, a lot of people forget that)
Idk if it needs to be as extreme as deleting your save file, I don't think a lot of people really understand the term non-binary. I know that when UT came out, I was a very young teenager who never even questioned the gender binary status quo, because I was never exposed to any queer media or discussion. It wasn't malicious, it was just ignorant when I called Frisk male and Chara female, because that is just what I knew at the time. It would be nice to get some sort of in-game confirmation regarding these debates, but even if it doesn't happen explicitly, I would be ok with that. The message, as you reiterated, is clear: you are not kris and you cannot decide who they are deep down. So I think that the point still stands even without an explicit confirmation.
@@tanyas.I mean yeah, I mostly said the "deleting your save file" thing as a joke but I do want there to be something about it (and there probably will be, since Deltarune seems to be exploring player/protagonist separation)
@@rals_0 by that logic, Seam doesn't have any gender, since they're never referred to with any pronouns at all. It's also worth mentioning that during an interview that Toby was present for, he actually _corrected_ someone when they used the wrong pronouns for Kris. Kris uses they/them exclusively, and while yes, that isn't a 100% guarantee that they're enby (they could be genderfluid, genderqueer, agender, or maybe even something else), it at the very least means that they don't identify with traditional gender norms and identities.
When it comes to Kris, there is just no argument there - they are non-binary, they/them are their preferred pronouns, and just like reinaintherain said in the comments as well, the fact that basically no one uses "she/her" for Kris is a very clear indication that they're being misgendered for their looks and name, as well as being shoved into a cisnormative box. When it comes to both Frisk and Chara, they too have their own pronouns, their own past, their own personalities, but I can at least understand how and why some people might be using their own preferred pronouns for the character because of the _Soul._ I still am not even gonna try to debate whether Frisk or Chara are non-binary or not, to me it's pretty clear that they both prefer "they/them" to some extent, and especially Chara since they use they/them and it/its. But, again, I can understand why some people might use he/him or she/her for Frisk at least, as it had never been stated for them specifically, while Chara was talked about and referred to as "they/them". Anyways, excellent video!
As the person who made a half-hour long analysis of the queer themes of deltarune, I feel obliged to comment on this video. Specifically, comment that I quite enjoyed it! Really well thought out points for the most part, that went quite in depth on analyzing not only the simple facts of the matter, but also delving somewhat into the symbology present within deltarune and undertale and how their themes of freedom and individuality shine through and emphasize the queerness present in its characters. Hmmm... If only someone made a video about that... Anywho, all in all, I'm quite impressed, and wish you lucj on your future journey and growth as a creator in the fandom, I have a feeling you've got quite a lot of potential!
Thank you for this video!!! The ending was a very nice bow on all your thoughts, and I’m especially glad about all of Kris’ section as a non-binary person who’s seen many people argue that they can’t be non-binary/“Kris goes by they/them so the player can relate” because they’re a player insert, in the game where it’s supposed to be obvious that the player and Kris are not the same!!!
I was honestly waiting for so long for someone to make a video on Toby Fox's exellent way of representing LGBTQ+ characters and how he handles them. This video fulfills all of that. Awesome job on the video!!
If you’re looking for the quote where it says frisk gender is ambiguous then look at the Undertale localization book which was read by Toby. It says that frisk’s genders never stated in the game. By the way when talking about Kris I am more going to be tongue-in-cheek about it mainly because the evidence is there but it’s more funny. For example lancer says to kris “ I now pronounce you cookie and wife“ when giving them the Lancer cookie. This would imply that kris is a girl or at the very least kris is not bothered by being identified as a girl since they didn’t react negatively to lancer. Additionally lancer also says before the K round Boss fight “ boys or girls” this would imply that kris gender is left ambiguous since there is a boy and a girl in the party if kris is either A boy or a girl it would make both of them plural. Since otherwise Lancer would’ve just said ” boy girl and other person” and once again Kris is not bothered by this . I try to be neutral here but I’m just putting the argument since the evidence does exist
The quote I am referencing is about Toby explicitly saying in a tweer that their gender is ambiguous, it got confused later on with another tweet of his about naming the fallen human your own name. The localisation book was not written by toby and is also tackling topics that are outwardly avoided by him, like gaster or chara, so I would take it with a pinch of salt. Regarding Kris, the term nonbinary also encompasses gender fluidity, and the fact that Lancer says "boys OR girls" instead of "and" can also hint that they are comfortable with both genders. Or, the easier explanation, Lancer just doesn't really pay attention to Kris, since he hasn't learned their name even at the end of ch 1. Anyways, thanks for commenting!
@@tanyas. But again the author says that this book was reviewed by Toby and it’s something that they’ve talked with Toby and have information that wasn’t in the game. Which is why I tend to take it A little more seriously instead of just ignoring. Also even though the context is referring to frisk you can argue they’re talking about chara Since the author tends to use the word main character for both of them. That’s interesting take on the meaning of boys or girls . Tho again The statement I now pronounce cookie and wife comes only in chapter 2 after he learned their name. Either way it does show that kris at the very least is not bothered by people calling them a girl . In which case would you say that it’s fine to call them by he/she and them instead of exclusively them?
I would say that, since they are only called by their friends and family with gender neutral pronouns, then it is best to stick to that. Pronouns do not always equal gender, or vice versa, but, working with what we have, we ahould respect the pronouns that they go by, which in this case, is only known to be they/them.
Honestly, I don't have a clear answer. I personally do not own a copy of the book, I have only read the snippets I could catch online, so, for now, I will probably tend to stick to the game and Toby's own writing, I hope you understand.
Thank you so much for thid video, it means so much (I'm agender) and this is amazing truely, Frisk, Chara, Kris, Napstablook (all ghosts technically count), Seam and Monster kid all are representations I see myself in, and it's refreshing to see a content creator who isnt purposely showing them into a gendered bubble
I didn't even know what being trans was until after I realized I was trans. As a smaller kiddo back in 2016, I had assumed Frisk's gender to be female because hair I guess. But, by random chance, I had happened to find some let's-player whose name I don't remember trying out some online Undertale mod thing-- I don't think it played out like Undertale, but I do remember that at least the first two rooms had the same layout. Anyhoo, this person was laughing at the amount of people who chose to play as Frisk, even when there were so many other options. I remember them saying something like "so many genderless children" in a joke-y kind of way. At first, I was pretty confused. My mom had told me what the word "gender" meant prior (but at the time, we both only really knew the binary), so I was just like "GENDERLESS IS AN OPTION?!!!" (Not really but you know. Shocked). My world had been opened up because of a throwaway joke. I remember running into the living room sometime after and proudly proclaiming that I was a genderless child. After that, mom learned what "non-binary" meant, but when she explained it to me, my stubborn ass refused to use it and kept saying I was a genderless child for a while after. Nowadays, I know that my gender is heavily masc-leaning, but if it weren't for Undertale, I might not have learned that I wasn't cis-- at least not for a few years. Thanks, Undertale.
This argument entirely rests on the assumption that a character cannot both have a defined personality and an ambiguous gender. However, this is not the case. We can take Niko from Oneshot as an example - they are explicitly *not you*, have a defined personality, and have been explicitly stated by the authors to have no canonical gender. If this category existed, it's very hard to say at least the humans in Undertale/Deltarune are more likely to be in this category than the "canonically nonbinary" one - especially since the official Legends of Localization book says Frisk's gender is "unstated" - Toby could very easily have had that line removed or had it changed so that it said Frisk is nonbinary, but he didn't.
If it were just that, then I could see the point. But the whole thing with these characters is that you are meant to place your own personality/beliefs/gender identity onto them, only to slowly but surely realize that they are not just a projection of yourself. It makes more narrative sense for their whole being to be individualized at the end of the game, instead of "yeah they have a personal backstory, personality, aspirations, preferences and unique characteristics and I am aware that my projection onto them is different from who they truly are, but I still believe they don't have a set gender, because it is not explicitly said that they do". Toby didn't sway people one way or the other, so we need to form our opinions based on the information and interpretations that are most relevant. Also, if you could provide the specific quote where it says that Frisk's gender is ambiguous, it'b be great, cause I could not find it for the life of me. And speaking of that, idk how canon the whole book is, since from what ive heard it literally can confirm anything about the player, chara, gaster etc... so until there's an official response from toby or an in-game confirmation, allow my dose of skepticism.
Frisk and chara are designed to be as blank as possible, whilst kris is their own being. So kris is truly nonbinary whilst frisk and chara are blank purposefully
I know that this is what's generally accepted in the community, but it is mainly based on their own interpretations and not concrete proof. I would love to give actual examples as to why you believe this way.
@@tanyas. I know this is REAAALLYYY late, but i remember Toby saying Frisk was a template for the player to see themselves in them. That's why their skin is yellow, because it's a "neutral" color. Not sure if it's the same for Chara, tho.
@@tanyas. Is not confirmed but is an strategy that most devs uses in their games when they are creating literal 0 dialogue character that you control, they do that because when a character like Frisk that do not show any personality, is why the devs wants you to understand that their gender is by your own identity. Also, the big problem here is not seeing the canon. Canon literally says that is not female or male, is the decision of the player, they stay genderless. People misguide this by saying that is canon ''No binary'' when its totally different creating a character that he inself identifys and non binary, than a character that is created LITERALLY as genderless) The real problem in this debate Is that most people attacks other people to make their own versions of Frisk and Chara, that also happened to Jakei Peñaloza by making Frisk and Chara of his own AU Males. And that happened too with Flowerfell, Echotale. And even fanfics of the original Undertale. The excuse? is that people are somehow hurting LGBT community to draw or create a female or male Frisk. They are stupid, of course, because there are no excuse to harass other artists or creators by their own interpretations that should be ''canon'' of a character. The most sane conclusion is that players can decide by their own headcannons if Frisk or Chara is male or female or literally whatever. Doesn't hurt anyone and don't even hurt the narrative. It is a narrative technique used in others games.
Yes.. but the problem/flaw with your logic is that saying that just because a character isn't a complete placeholder that an ambiguous description means "gender non conforming". I can still point at a random person in the distance who I don't know, and describe them, but that doesn't mean that because they are referred to that way means that's what they ARE. You see what I mean?
If it were just that, then I could see the point. But the whole thing with these characters is that you are meant to place your own personality/beliefs/gender identity onto them, only to slowly but surely realize that they are not just a projection of yourself. It makes more narrative sense for their whole being to be individualized at the end of the game, instead of "yeah they have a personal backstory, personality, aspirations, preferences and unique characteristics and I am aware that my projection onto them is different from who they truly are, but I still believe they don't have a set gender, because it is not explicitly said that they do"
For Frisk, maybe I could see other monsters not asking their gender and using they as a placeholder. Chara and Kris live with monsters and are capable of speaking, so this can't be the case for them.
Thank you! Currently working on an UT/DR theory about humans' character traits and their connections. It touches on the power of the soul, the player's control and the underlying themes foreshadowed in DR.
This is a really good video, and I'm very glad it popped up in my recommended! I'm definitely sticking around for other stuff you might do in the future :3 Also I've always found it so funny when people argue that Kris uses they/them as a stand-in for the player. Like, with Frisk/Chara i could see why people thought that. You name Chara and Frisk's personality outside of your control is very small. I still thought those people were wrong, but i could see how they got to that point. But with Kris that argument falls apart so hard it is almost laughable. Kris is so distinct from the player that it can't be ignored
In Frisk's case you could _maybe_ argue that the monsters simply don't know Frisk's pronouns and default to they/them, which is relatively unlikely to be hurtful. still, i think it's pretty unambiguous that all three of the humans canonically prefer they/them (and possibly it/its in Chara's case). It's understandable why people come to the conclusion that frisk and chara's gender is ambiguous rather than specifically nonbinary, but with Kris, it's misreading one of the game's central themes. Kris' personality outside of the player's influence is shown _much_ more frequently and conspicuously than either of the other two.
7:57 Seeing as most monster's mistake Frisk for a human, I don't think they can read Frisk's mind and from that learn their gender identity... During the sans dinner, sans does not need to read Frisk's mind to tell that they've died or not... He just needs to say, "and you have not died a single time" and Frisk's reaction tells him everything. During the sans fight, sans can tell how many times the player dies by reading their expression, not their mind... Even though I view Frisk as enby, I think the reason all the monsters refer to frisk with they/them pronouns and gender-neutral language is just because they don't want to assume Frisk's gender. (Just because monsters use they/them for enby monsters does not mean they can't also use they/them when they don't know someone's gender) Everyone who refers to Frisk with they/them pronouns has just met them, and thus they have no way to tell Frisk's gender identity without asking them, which nobody does. (Unless Frisk is wearing something with Enby pride colors, or has a they/them pronoun pin) Nobody in Undertale asks Frisk "What's your pronouns?" so, I think monsters are just using they/them because they are not assuming Frisk's gender... Just to be clear, this is not an argument for Frisk not being enby (especially seeing as I view them as enby)... Just wanted to highlight that in Undertale nobody has any way to tell Frisk's gender identity, unless Frisk is wearing something that indicates it... + I don't think the above argument could be applied to Chara/Kris. Seeing as most folks in UT/DR knew Kris and Chara for quite some before the events of each game, these characters referring to Chara and Frisk with they/them pronouns is very strong evidence for these characters being enby, (Especially seeing as those who are close to them refer to them as they, like Asriel for Chara and Toriel for Kris)... I hope my comment did not come off as too antagonistic, as vids like this are important. I'm not enby, but I am trans and consider myself an ally to my fellow enbys siblings. Just personally feel like Frisk's enby status is not as clear-cut as Kris or Chara...
I agree, technically there are no clear cut answers regarding Frisk's gender, but there is even more of a lack of proof that they are in the gender binary, or that they are assigned their gender by the player. I also am not sure how sans is able to read only the expression of a person to know that they died 4 or 5 times to him in the Geno run, or the fact that you're "not really a human" even before seeing you commit atrocities in Snowdin. And speaking of Sans, he is able to determine from his first encounter with flowey that he is a "guy", and he is a literal soulless flower, so... I appreciate any and every amicable input, I really don't want anyone to think that I am not willing to listen to other opinions. I hope that you can see where I'm coming from with my arguments, but again, they are not bulletproof.
@@tanyas. I agree with you... There's no evidence that Frisk is within the gender binary, or that their gender is "the players choice..." Do feel like there's a lot unclear about what's going on with sans and his "face reading" abilities... (Plus it's not 100% perfect, seeing as he cant accurately tell how many times you've died after 11 deaths) He is able to tell Frisk's LV level during the judgment hall, so maybe that's how he can tell that stuff happened in the ruins (Plus Frisk acting very differently in no mercy scenes as opposed to neutral/pacifist). Honestly I dont know what to make about monsters telling that Frisk is "not a human" in the genocide run, (especially with Asgore not even recognizing Frisk as a human when he does in all other routes)... Though I dont see how that would allow them to infer Frisk's gender. (Personally, I head canon that Frisk & Chara realized they were enby from all the monsters using gender neutral language for them, and the euphoria they got from that helped them realize that they were enby... Kind of a "chicken and the egg" thing. I'm actually considering writing a fanfics, and have a scene planned where Azzy helps Chara realize their enby partly inspired by the above.) Also, I dont think the true pacifist ending is the first time sans encounters/becomes aware of Flowey... During the sans hangout at Grillby's, sans asks Frisk if "[you've] ever heard of a talking flowery?" He plays dumb and acts as if he's talking about someone using an echo flower to mess with Papyrus, but seeing as "talking flower" is in yellow, the things sans says this flower told Papyrus, and how one of the Papyrus/Undyne calls confirms that Flowey was interacting with Papyrus (Call them a second time in the right room of the MTT hotel), I'm pretty sure sans was well aware of Flowey's existence before the true pacifist ending. (Especially seeing as sans is aware that saves/loads/resets are a thing and likely knows that Flowey was behind them before Frisk arrives)
You bring up very good points. If you allow me, I would like to add on to them with my own 2 cents: Regarding Sans' Geno kill count, I think that it is just done for the convenience of the player: dying so many times means that you are ptobably grinding for a win, so its redundant and even annoying to point it out. Also, it may be possible to determine Frisk's LV level beforehand, but seeing the fact that it takes him a good few seconds to analyse you in the judgement hall, I'm not sure when that occasion may occur, outside of maybe the dinner section. I wansn't implying that because Frisk is not regarded as human in the geno run then that means that monsters can determine their gender. I was just saying that there are things about Frisk's appearance, facial expression and demeanor that we the players will never be aware of, if not explicitly pointed out by other monsters. Lastly, I am aware of that "talking flower" conversation with Flowey, but I am not sure to what extent Sans knows about Flowey in this particular timeline. We know that he caused flowey "a fair share of resets", but Sans is not able to remember previous timelines like flowey does, he mostly relies on science and a deja-vu feeling that a lot of monsters have.
@@tanyas. Yah, defiantly for the game sans cant count because that would get annoying + would be a lot of work for Toby, (though diegetically the dialogue seems to imply that at most, sans knows the kills are roughly "X" but cant really tell...) Dont have much more to say except that I very much agree with you that sans does not remember past resets... Honestly want to make a video about Undertale/Deltarune misconceptions/fanon, like Flowey being emotionless when he's really compassionless, or Berdly having a crush on Noelle when he does not... Think it would be hilarious if in later DR chapters, Berdly's... "Oh no! Noelle has a crush on me but I dont love her back! I must pretend to be into her so she will stay my friend!" even though she does not have a crush on him because she's a gay,* develops into a "mutually unrequited" situation or something where Noelle also starts thinking "Oh no! Berdly has a crush on me and does not know I'm a lesbian! How will I ever tell him I'm not interested?!?!?!?" (The thought of both Berdly and Noelle worrying that the other is going to take their rejection badly just seems so funny to me...) *(I know she could hypothetically be bi or pan but Noelle only being attracted to girls makes her supposed crush on Berdly even funnier to me...) Sorry kind of lost my train of thought there, but thank you for responding to this transbian's comments!
I didn't know people think Noelle has a crush on Berdly, I mean, Berdly thought that she had feelings for him and at the end of the chapter he says he does not reciprocate them, but Noelle really seems taken aback by his assumptions. Nevermind the fact that she is head over heels for Susie
Honestly, the discussion continuing on for so long as a whole annoys me a bit. It’s not explicitly said ‘oh hey they’re NB’ because it isn’t the most important thing about the characters, it’s just one aspect, and people can fit into those categories without it being a defining trait of them.
Nobody said that having a gender identity is a defining trait, but one aspect that is misinterpreted by a lot of people. If you are not interested in this topic, just don't watch the video, don't comment on it etc. There are people who care about these things and people who don't, and for those there is a myriad of videos discussing other things.
@@tanyas. I do understand that, and I mean no hate through this comment. I’m just frustrated with the arguments going on and on, in circles, nobody really convincing anyone believing otherwise.
honestly with Kris' gender even if we don't know what it is, i think it's clever to refer Kris as Them/They, since it can be used to both singular and plural, on the plural side, since Kris and the Player is connected, is a really good plot device to makes us connect with the world and feel part of it, and on the singular side we don't know Kris' gender and neither Kris knows ours.
I very rarely leave comments on videos, and i'm 2 months late, but honestly, i just want to congratulate you on a well done video, it was straight to the point, and got all the ideas across in a quick, simple, easy to understand, convincing manner. if you'd like to skip my long winded rambling (which is very common for me, and why i don't often comment), but still wish to see my opinion on the matter, you may skip to the summarized version (or, in other words, a shorter rambling) which is at the bottom of this comment my personal opinion on the matter (before watching this video, that is) was that it was kinda just up for interpretation with frisk and chara, like many believe (i was surprised to find out that there is any disagreement on kris being Non-Binary, as it should be very clear), and i never even blink when they were saw or portrayed as otherwise in fan interpretations, and thought they weren't any less canon. i still often called both frisk and chara they/them, but that was less out of a concrete belief that it's their canon gender, and more because that's what the game called them, and i didn't feel any need to change that, as frisk and chara always felt like they were their own characters separate to the player, though i assumed that was just a me thing. my opinion now, after watching this video? not all that different really, i'll still be calling frisk, chara, and kris (because there is no interpretation with kris, i saw them being non-binary as canon from the start) they/them, but now because i firmly believe that it is what was intended, and what is canon. this isn't to say i think any female or male interpretations of frisk and chara shouldn't be valid or allowed, people can do as they please i suppose, as stuff like genderbending isn't very uncommon in media, however i no longer believe those interpretations are canon to the original game. SHORTEND VERSION BELOW to summarize my boring and long rambling, i always just left frisk and chara as non-binary in my interpretation due to seeing them as separate characters from me as the player, but thought that really any interpretation was canon. I now believe that them being separate characters with a set gender identity (that being non-binary) is the canon. i still believe that people can do whatever they wish with their interpretation of the characters, just that it isn't canon. to give an example to explain my point of view, i think of a female or male frisk and chara as something like underfell and outertale, it isn't the canon of the original undertale, but rather, an alteration of it. oh, yea, and kris is also non-binary, i don't understand where any room for argument could be with that. to anyone that bothered to read this, hi, i'm sorry for making such a long comment, thank you for reading though, and to the creator of this video Tanya S., well done on a very well made video, i have decided to subscribe, as i look forward to your future videos. i wish you all good day/night, and until we meet again in the odd and unending world of the internet.
My video would not be made if gender would be solely defined by an objective truth- gender is a social construct, because it is associated with certain physical, mental and emotional traits, roles in society, personal liberties, and many more things that are solely determined by the perception of society at large, not innate traits. But just because we can declassify gender as an objective thing does not mean that we can erase the concept at large. Since the world of UT/DR has gendered pronouns and uses terms like "man", "girl" etc, with the same meanings as in our world, the idea of gender is still present, regardless of the strictness of gender roles. So an individual acquires a gender identity, whether by choice or by being labeled by others. My video discusses the idea that the humans in game are their own people, different from the player, therefore having the freedom to have their own gender identity, not imposed by external forces. The evidence provided hints at the idea that they would probably not fall under either of the gender binaries, but rather the non-binary umbrella (agender, genderqueer, gender fluid etc.)
Thanks for feedback! Yes, I'm currently writing one on the humans' souls and their interconnected traits, I think it's a new take on the subject matter!
[SORRY BAD ENGLISH IM NOT ENGLISH] The big problem here is not seeing the canon. Canon literally says that is not female or male, is the decision of the player for now because Toby didn't say anything about it directly, so they stay genderless. People misguide this by saying that is canon ''No binary'' when its totally different creating a character that he inself identifys and non binary, than a character that is created LITERALLY as genderless) The real problem in this debate Is that most people attacks other people to make their own versions of Frisk and Chara, that also happened to Jakei Peñaloza by making Frisk and Chara of his own AU Males. And that happened too with Flowerfell, Echotale. And even fanfics of the original Undertale. The excuse? is that people are somehow hurting LGBT community to draw or create a female or male Frisk. They are stupid, of course, because there are no excuse to harass other artists or creators by their own interpretations that should be ''canon'' of a character. The most sane conclusion is that players can decide by their own headcannons if Frisk or Chara is male or female or literally whatever. Doesn't hurt anyone and don't even hurt the narrative. It is a narrative technique used in others games. People, create your own fanfics, drawings, AUS and make Frisk, Chara and Kris and make them literally the way you want it them to be. You want them Genderless? Trans? Male? Female? It is okay. Because this is fiction, and people don't deserve harassment or any kind of shit just because people are dumb when literally interpreting Frisk as a Female is literally nothing wrong there. Frisk, Chara at least doesn't fit in the ''nonbinary'' community because is different creating a character that identifys themselves as non binary, than literal creating a character that DOESN'T have any sex or gender. Greetings and nice vid.
I'm nonbinary myself, and honestly I really cringe every time someone misgenders these characters. It gives me dysphoria by proxy :P And it really reminds you how little people are willing to acknowledge the existence of genderqueer people.
I understand that non-binary representation is important and everything but for me it's kinda sad that quiet, reserved, depressed and kind of 'feminine' cis men are a bit overlooked in queer media. Almost seems like they want guys to think that you can't be androgynous, asocial, gentle and melancholic and still not be non-binary nor femboy, but a cisgender heterosexual male. And don't let me even start on representation of straight role-reversal relationships I relate to Kris a lot in terms of being a depressed antisocial dude and being fond of stronger girls in my teenage years so i don't think it's too bad for my headcanon of Kris being male. Not enforcing it on anyone obviously
Imo, Ralsei, Asgore, Asriel, Mettaton are all male representation of the "unconventionally masculine" in one way or another. There aren't many cis characters in UT/DR that strictly adhere to their gender roles.
You playing as multiple humans in different routes is improbable, maybe you just don't go far enough in the game for the name reveal scene. Also, you probably already know this, but the player is confirmed to be canon in Undertale.
I know that the distinction between the player and the human you play as is pretty much set in stone, I don't know whether it is confirmed or not. Also, the part about Frisk's appearance in UT is a bit speculative on my part, I just wanted to point out some interesting connections.
Now please don't hate me in replies but i think Frisk and Chara are more likely Female. And i say *more likely* not entirely. Both of them have a haircut which females do have. Chara also has cheeks that looks more girl-lish On the other hand, Kris is more likely Male. Again i am not saying they're male i am saying more likely. Their appearance are more relatable to guys and the haircut they have aren't identical to females. Tests my opinion tho and it's my theory.
Ok but there are no facts saying that. A lot of people see them as nb as well, if you will read the comments of this video you will see. Also, they are only reffered as they/them in game and are never regarded as boy/girl, only children/humans. There are a lot of misconceptions in the UT/DR community, I made this video to present the actual facts present in the game.
And everybody said for quite a long time that Napstablook, Mad Dummy, and Monster Kid were male. Surprise surprise, these characters are exclusively referred to as they/them in-game. Fandom is wrong a lot of the time, especially when it comes to nb rep. It's luckily a bit better over time, but you'll still see people denying the humans as nb rep. Especially for Kris, they're referred to by they/them quite a lot in ch2.
@@MRjmaren I guess I could understand with Frisk, but Chara and Kris were both adopted and Kris at least has been living with monsters for the last 8 years.
Ok so just wanted to pop in and clarify a few things:
1. I am working on a video about souls and the Kris-Chara-Frisk connection, it will take some time as it is longer than this one and it was put on the back burner for a couple of weeks due to personal reasons.
2. I made this video because it is a topic I am passionate about, not only because I am nb, but more importantly, because UT was one of the first "out and proud" pieces of media that I consumed as a teenager. Most of the concepts discussed in this video were eye-opening when first plying UT, it really helped me become more accepting of the queer community and ultimately myself.
3. I did not make this video as a hit piece on anyone who doesn't think like me regarding a character's gender canonicity, I just wanted to express my opinion and provide some good arguments to support it. I don't hate anyone who disagrees with me, as long as we can have a civil conversation. I did have to delete some nasty comments that I specifically said in my video will not be tolerated, regarding bigotry and hate.
4. I never expected this video to get the traction it recieved, it really warms my heart to see comments supporting what I do and I am humbled that somebody took the time to watch me ramble for 10 minutes.
Thanks for reading, see you soon!
Something I like about Frisk is that they are fully ambiguous. They don’t have a set gender or race, or age. They’re just a human kid who fell down. And while I personally see them as nonbinary, I understand why some people see them differently.
In the last conversation I was in about Chara, I remember someone bringing up that their family fully uses they/them and that they sometimes use it pronouns for themselves. Prior to that I had been approaching them similarly to Frisk, but this made me realize that Chara is a lot further narratively from the player than Frisk is.
For Kris, it’s pretty clear that they are genderqueer and probably nonbinary. A lot of the discourse about Kris makes me sad because while all of this discourse does stem from transphobia, Kris is where it gets the worst. Kris is explicitly separate from the player. Saying that their gender is up to interpretation helps perpetuate a harmful rhetoric that nonbinary identities aren’t valid.
When I first found Undertale, I didn’t understand much about queer identity. One of the first things I asked my brother as we started the game was if Frisk was a boy or girl. He told me that they weren’t either, so anybody could play as them.
For many people, I suspect Undertale might have been their introduction to the concept of being nonbinary. For me, it was.
I am so glad that now that I’m older I have hyperfixated on Undertale and Deltarune again. I’m glad because I can finally understand little things, like Napstablook being nonbinary, or the trans allegory woven into the Mettaton and Mew Mew’ stories. As a bi girl, I now realize that the treatment of Undyne and Alphys was very helpful to me. And I also can notice special things now, like how Asriel wears what’s basically a dress in his God of Hyperdeath form, or how Susie disregards gender norms.
All that’s to say, Undertale and Deltarune are undeniably queer games. I’m glad I get a chance to experience them.
I feel like Toby is being more blatant with Kris’s identity, and there will potentially be a confrontation towards the player about misgendering them. Basically, it’s really interesting (and sad) how people/players quickly misgendering Kris is kind of part of the story? Like, it’s just another way we, as the player, take away their autonomy. Also, I don’t have the data, but I swear Toby is intentionally using They/Them pronouns for Kris more often and blatantly, taking advantage of the party system.
TLDR: Undertale/Deltarune is so bloody queer, it’s basically a love story to the queer community. And I bet Toby is going to use players tendency to automatically gender an “indeterminately gendered” main character, as a plot point when the issue of control becomes a bigger and more obvious plot point. And I’m all here for it. :3
Something I find especially ridiculous concerning Kris’ gender, is that I’ve almost never seen she/her used on them- even by girls (outside of the very occasional “genderbend” type stuff). It’s almost like people don’t really care about the relatability of Kris and instead just want to enforce cis gender norms on them, especially with ships like Krusie and Kriselle which are heterowashed to hell. In fact this happens to characters like Napstablook/Monster Kid/Seam/etc too
The same could be said in the opposite. Because while we can analyze a creator's intentions, without a direct statement of confirmation, it is also true that people could be just wanting to enforce non-cis gender norms on Kris.
I think the reason you say that Kris is more boyish probably comes from intrinsic character design. Looks armored like a night with a sword, choice of the color blue in the dark world, "Kris" sounds more like "Chris" when spoken than an abbreviation of "Chrissy", "Christian" or "Kristina" or the similar. Has friendly interest in Susie who is sort of tomboyish with her taste, implying similar taste. Interest in videogames, knives (which is something a lot of boys like as kids), craftsmanship show by wanting to make knives by hand.
It only makes sense that's how fans would view Kris, regardless of anything.
It's people who say that Kris is being pushed into male depiction who are wanting to assume his/her/their roll.
I also think it's this thing where masculinity is seen as the default. Almost all they/them characters in UT/DR tend to get he/him'ed, I've noticed.
I have also been guilty of this, as a child/teenager I wasn't exposed to any queer discourse IRL or in fiction and on top of that, my native language doesn't have gender neutral pronouns, so I stuck to he/him as a default. I do not condemn people that have done this, as psychological patriarchy is something that plays a role in many interpretations of art, but I hope we can collectively let go of this pointless and harmful masculinization in the future.
It's also weird how Frisk and Chara are always portrayed as girls by most UT fans just so they can be shipped with Sans and Asriel. Heterowashing at its finest lol (with a side of inc*st and p*dophilia 💀)
@@AlphaHaze I hate artwork that makes them super curvy and feminine -_- it’s also always female Chara/Frisk with a male character and male Chara/Frisk with a female character in terms of shipping too 😭
Some people have already mentioned that Lancer's dialogue could also be interpreted as meaning Kris might be a girl ("cookie and wife", "boys or girls").
And there's also some evidence that indicates that Kris could be a boy, mainly the shampoo at their home which is specifically for boys.
There is also a lot of evidence they don't have a gender/don't fit in the gender binary (Toby's comments(I think? We'll discount this one for now), as well as the fact that everyone exclusively refers to Kris as "they/them").
Conclusion? Kris is a being that exists beyond gender itself, and is in fact a Cuban Cigar, making them Frisk's canonical love interest, which THEREFORE means AN OLDER FRISK is THE ROARING KNIGHT! And Kris will stop their rampage through the POWER OF LOVE!!11!!!
In all seriousness though, great vid!
This comment took an unexpected turn and I'm here for it :))
Doesnt lancer say hubswife instead of just wife in ch2?
@@icicleditor Nope, just checked it. "I now pronounce you, cookie and wife."
Give me what you are smoking
*At most,* I feel like Frisk and Chara could *technically* be "ambiguous" or "up for interpretation." I will always be firmly that Kris does not apply to this given what Deltarune has established about who they are as a character separate from us.
Edit: To be clear, I don't necessarily think this is the case for Frisk or Chara, but I suppose it's a bit more vague with them. But Kris, no.
I didn't go too much into detail with Kris because I thought it was the most obvious where it stands. When it comes to Undertale humans, I do think it is more vague, but there's still a lot of evidence supporting gender individuality.
@@tanyas. Agreed. It often is a bit frustrating that Undertale and Deltarune are games that have really good lgbt rep that is often ignored. But, y'know, if it WAS outright said, it would be "shoving it in our faces" according to a lot of fans :/
@@michaelvanmeter6984 Kris's gender being up to the player simply wouldn't make sense with the entire theme of their character. Their own mother refers to them by they/them, and the only gendered term they are referred to in the entire game is when Lancer declares them "cookie and wife" but I somehow doubt that counts.
Specifically, Toby made a character who, while you initially think is just a self-insert, you eventually learn that they are their own person. The traits they have are their own, and not up for you to decide. They had a life before you came along and sometimes outright disagree with things you make them say or do. Wouldn't this entirely fall apart if Kris's gender was an exception?
It's also worth noting that Toby *corrected* the fangamers when they misgendered Kris accidentally in the anniversary stream. Several times during the stream, Toby is able to reply to things said in as little as 2-3 seconds if it's a short reply. TTS delay does not apply here. Toby repeats what the fangamers said, except with the correct pronouns, 5 seconds later. Obviously Toby isn't gonna make a big deal about it in front of thousands of people, but repeating what was said but with the correct pronouns is correcting someone.
By your own logic, Toby could not make a character that is intended to be non-binary unless the game (or him) outright says "This character is non-binary". But that's not something Toby would do. Alphys is clearly attracted to men and women, but she's never referred to as bi or pan. Noelle is attracted to women, but she's never referred to as a lesbian (or bi or pan). Mettaton and Mad Mew Mew are both trans, but the term "transgender" is never used. There's even a random Lioness npc who was confirmed to be trans upon Deltarune's release as she was referred to as a waitress. The game doesn't go out of its way to scream in your face, "this characer is trans" but it's there and it's great to see it regardless. Toby doesn't use labels, and portrays a world in his games where LGBT people are just the norm.
@@michaelvanmeter6984 And what you may not understand is that while there is rep that is subtle enough in both games to be missed, that doesn't mean it's not important. LGBT representation is important. Specifically, non-binary representation is very important and not something you see often in media.
@@michaelvanmeter6984 I'm also unsure what you would *want* Toby to do if he did intend Kris to be non-binary.
By your own logic, correcting people or going out of your way to say Kris is non-binary would be shoving it in our faces. This is exactly what Deltatraveler did; they corrected someone once or twice, and made something for Pride Month. But that is too much for you.
But having the character exist, with thematic reasons why they cannot be "ambiguous" is not enough for you for some bizaare reason. Even though this is how *all* LGBT representation in both Undertale and Deltarune is handled. And I enjoy that, as an LGBT person.
I'm noticing all these comments about how Kris is explicitly less ambiguous than Frisk and Chara, and to me it really cements the fact that Toby wrote all three of them as genderqueer in some capacity.
If you go to the library in deltarune and read the review for Mew Mew Kissy Cutie 2, it describes how the themes of this successor to the original are more mature, with a darker storyline. It also makes a nod to the protagonist's character in the original, describing (crudely) how less interesting it is compared to that of the new release.
It sounds very familiar to Undertale (the original) and Deltarune (the successor). Deltarune's storyline is shaping up to be darker, yet darker than the original, in the first two chapters themselves. And on that note, there is observably much more to Kris's character thank Frisk's. It's almost like Toby is saying "Hey, I wrote Frisk a certain way but the nuance wasn't communicated, so I'm going to make it much more clear with Kris."
I'm not saying Frisk is Kris. But I do think their characters do share some traits, and being genderqueer/non-binary is one of them. It's just more fleshed out with Kris than it was with Frisk.
As for Chara, I'd like to add on to the points you made about their characterisation. There is strong evidence for the fact that Chara is the narrator of all of Undertale and its routes.
[[ web.archive.org/web/20171121011938/determinators.tumblr.com/post/159674581147/greetings-uh-so-ive-been-working-on-this ]]
That just adds to the fact that they have a very canon personality and thus gender identity.
That aside, the player being able to name Chara actually in a way cements their identity further. Chara is, in some way, the lens or viewpoint you see Undertale through (especially if you believe in the Narrator Chara theory). It's a bit like how when you play Earthbound, you view the events of the game through the lens of Ness.
Keeping the Chara-Ness comparison in mind... in the beginning of Earthbound, you get to name Ness as well (and all the other characters in your party). But even if we can name him, that doesn't change the fact that Ness is canonically a boy, is referred to as such, and uses he/him. It should follow that even if we can name Chara, it does not change the fact that Chara is canonically genderqueer/non-binary, not referred to with any gendered terms, and uses they/them.
anyway rambling aside the KFC trio lead to my non binary awakening and i feel called out at 10:55 thank you for this video happy pride
Love the points you brought up! Also, I know about the theory of Chara being the narrator, but, while I do tend to agree with it(someting that I'm tackling in my next video), I didn't want to bring more doubt to my theory, since not everybody agrees with that and there still was enough evidence imo to characterise them without that interpretation.
I really like the Earthbound parallels, I think they are very fitting!
@@tanyas.I'm glad you liked it!! I was also debating bringing up NarraChara, I went with it because... I really love NarraChara lol. If it's real it's so well done and the implications are so interesting AUGH
Chara is generally so fascinating. I really believe they're sort of supposed to be Undertale's counterpart to Ness/Link/A Pokémon game's protagonist. Like a player charcter but not exactly. I think deltarune might also play off of that, with the Vessel you create vs. the character you are assigned to control. I've been rotating thoughts about this in my mind for a while which is why I made the Ness comparison :D
Also, looking forward to the next video!!
I think the main point is that Toby Fox intended the characters to be separate from the player while still being relatable to everyone. He doesn't want the player to have any control over the character's gender, as that would make them feel less like actual characters separate from the player, because that's the twist with all three of them.
It sounds interesting, but why then they would make Kris and Frisk so literal empty, no emotions, no even personality, and why Toby would let you decide Chara Name
If the purpose is that Frisk, Chara and Kris identity has been already writed?
Is obvious that he is recurring to the typical dev decision of making their characters with 0 dialogues the most NEUTRAL posible so you can identify as them.
There is nothing wrong and doesn't affect the narrative too.
Because is different
> identify an character as the way you see it
Not means
> That that character has an own story and individual control that is basically the main plot.
Like literal Niko of Oneshot, we can say is the same situation.
Their gender is literally genderless.
@@URIEL-ii4jw They’re not emotionless, though. Kris is stated to be afraid of the “bunker,” and expresses themself in a number of ways. They clearly have a personality and backstory.
Besides this, no “Silent” protagonist is ever truly emotionless so long as there is dialogue that pertains to them.
Not quite sure what you’re trying to say with the rest of that though.
@@URIEL-ii4jw Kris has "no emotions, no even personality", you say?
Ah yes, Kris, who repeatedly pranked Noelle in the past, gets mad that they can't play the piano for Susie, has several unusual search queries manifested in their room in Queen's Mansion, and who _literally shouts that they're not okay_ after the Spamton NEO fight, is *_toootally_* bereft of all emotions or personality.
And to the "Toby lets you decide Chara's name, so their gender is up to the player" thing: that's like saying Link's gender is up to the player because Link is meant to represent the player, and you can name Link whatever you want in most of the games. Like, no, Link is definitely a boy in most iterations (BotW/TotK play with it a lot more, but he's still clearly referred to by everyone as he/him).
Heck, Kris is a lot like BotW Link in that way: you don't get to name them, and while we don't actually get to read their dialogue (unless we're making a choice for them), they're clearly talking, and still clearly have their own personalities (heck, BotW Link has some of the _most_ character and personality of any Link).
Plus, Chara _isn't_ a representation of the player; they simply embody the tone of the route (the No Mercy monologue is them talking to you as a separate being, and if you do the route a second time, Chara literally says "You and I are not the same").
I really hope that the game tries to bait the player into referring to Kris as a boy or a girl but if you select either of those it deletes your save file
Or I hope Toby has something specifically to call out those "Kris's gender is up for interpretation" people. Considering how Deltarune specifically seems to be tackling the player/protagonist separation as a major theme, I can totally see him doing something along those lines
(also nice remembering that Alphys is bi, a lot of people forget that)
Idk if it needs to be as extreme as deleting your save file, I don't think a lot of people really understand the term non-binary. I know that when UT came out, I was a very young teenager who never even questioned the gender binary status quo, because I was never exposed to any queer media or discussion. It wasn't malicious, it was just ignorant when I called Frisk male and Chara female, because that is just what I knew at the time.
It would be nice to get some sort of in-game confirmation regarding these debates, but even if it doesn't happen explicitly, I would be ok with that. The message, as you reiterated, is clear: you are not kris and you cannot decide who they are deep down. So I think that the point still stands even without an explicit confirmation.
@@tanyas.I mean yeah, I mostly said the "deleting your save file" thing as a joke but I do want there to be something about it (and there probably will be, since Deltarune seems to be exploring player/protagonist separation)
Gender ambiguity has existed long before deltarune, unless toby outright STATES kris is non binary, kris is not non binary (canonically.)
@@rals_0 by that logic, Seam doesn't have any gender, since they're never referred to with any pronouns at all. It's also worth mentioning that during an interview that Toby was present for, he actually _corrected_ someone when they used the wrong pronouns for Kris. Kris uses they/them exclusively, and while yes, that isn't a 100% guarantee that they're enby (they could be genderfluid, genderqueer, agender, or maybe even something else), it at the very least means that they don't identify with traditional gender norms and identities.
I hope Toby deletes genders all together.
When it comes to Kris, there is just no argument there - they are non-binary, they/them are their preferred pronouns, and just like reinaintherain said in the comments as well, the fact that basically no one uses "she/her" for Kris is a very clear indication that they're being misgendered for their looks and name, as well as being shoved into a cisnormative box.
When it comes to both Frisk and Chara, they too have their own pronouns, their own past, their own personalities, but I can at least understand how and why some people might be using their own preferred pronouns for the character because of the _Soul._ I still am not even gonna try to debate whether Frisk or Chara are non-binary or not, to me it's pretty clear that they both prefer "they/them" to some extent, and especially Chara since they use they/them and it/its. But, again, I can understand why some people might use he/him or she/her for Frisk at least, as it had never been stated for them specifically, while Chara was talked about and referred to as "they/them".
Anyways, excellent video!
As the person who made a half-hour long analysis of the queer themes of deltarune, I feel obliged to comment on this video. Specifically, comment that I quite enjoyed it! Really well thought out points for the most part, that went quite in depth on analyzing not only the simple facts of the matter, but also delving somewhat into the symbology present within deltarune and undertale and how their themes of freedom and individuality shine through and emphasize the queerness present in its characters. Hmmm... If only someone made a video about that...
Anywho, all in all, I'm quite impressed, and wish you lucj on your future journey and growth as a creator in the fandom, I have a feeling you've got quite a lot of potential!
Thanks a million!
Thank you for this video!!! The ending was a very nice bow on all your thoughts, and I’m especially glad about all of Kris’ section as a non-binary person who’s seen many people argue that they can’t be non-binary/“Kris goes by they/them so the player can relate” because they’re a player insert, in the game where it’s supposed to be obvious that the player and Kris are not the same!!!
as a queer person who is currently hyperfixated on ut/dr, thank you for this vid! i really liked watching :)
I don’t usually leave comments on videos, but this was a really great analysis! I hope you make more videos like this in the future :)
Thank you! I'm planning to make more videos about Undertale and Deltarune, as my schedule allows it.
@@tanyas. That’s great to hear! I hope that this video gets more attention, as there has obviously been a lot of work put into it
I was honestly waiting for so long for someone to make a video on Toby Fox's exellent way of representing LGBTQ+ characters and how he handles them. This video fulfills all of that. Awesome job on the video!!
If you’re looking for the quote where it says frisk gender is ambiguous then look at the Undertale localization book which was read by Toby.
It says that frisk’s genders never stated in the game.
By the way when talking about Kris I am more going to be tongue-in-cheek about it mainly because the evidence is there but it’s more funny.
For example lancer says to kris “ I now pronounce you cookie and wife“ when giving them the Lancer cookie. This would imply that kris is a girl or at the very least kris is not bothered by being identified as a girl since they didn’t react negatively to lancer.
Additionally lancer also says before the K round Boss fight “ boys or girls” this would imply that kris gender is left ambiguous since there is a boy and a girl in the party if kris is either A boy or a girl it would make both of them plural.
Since otherwise Lancer would’ve just said ” boy girl and other person” and once again Kris is not bothered by this .
I try to be neutral here but I’m just putting the argument since the evidence does exist
The quote I am referencing is about Toby explicitly saying in a tweer that their gender is ambiguous, it got confused later on with another tweet of his about naming the fallen human your own name.
The localisation book was not written by toby and is also tackling topics that are outwardly avoided by him, like gaster or chara, so I would take it with a pinch of salt.
Regarding Kris, the term nonbinary also encompasses gender fluidity, and the fact that Lancer says "boys OR girls" instead of "and" can also hint that they are comfortable with both genders. Or, the easier explanation, Lancer just doesn't really pay attention to Kris, since he hasn't learned their name even at the end of ch 1.
Anyways, thanks for commenting!
@@tanyas. But again the author says that this book was reviewed by Toby and it’s something that they’ve talked with Toby and have information that wasn’t in the game.
Which is why I tend to take it A little more seriously instead of just ignoring.
Also even though the context is referring to frisk you can argue they’re talking about chara Since the author tends to use the word main character for both of them.
That’s interesting take on the meaning of boys or girls .
Tho again The statement I now pronounce cookie and wife comes only in chapter 2 after he learned their name.
Either way it does show that kris at the very least is not bothered by people calling them a girl .
In which case would you say that it’s fine to call them by he/she and them instead of exclusively them?
I would say that, since they are only called by their friends and family with gender neutral pronouns, then it is best to stick to that. Pronouns do not always equal gender, or vice versa, but, working with what we have, we ahould respect the pronouns that they go by, which in this case, is only known to be they/them.
@@tanyas. watch next chapter lancer say “Worry not shes or hes” lol 😂.
Tho what about Frisk in light of the localization book?
Honestly, I don't have a clear answer. I personally do not own a copy of the book, I have only read the snippets I could catch online, so, for now, I will probably tend to stick to the game and Toby's own writing, I hope you understand.
really interesting analysis on something that isn't usually talked about in the community, great vid
This comment section is... pretty nice, actually.
Happy Pride Month!
🏳️🌈
Month 6?
Thank you so much for thid video, it means so much (I'm agender) and this is amazing truely, Frisk, Chara, Kris, Napstablook (all ghosts technically count), Seam and Monster kid all are representations I see myself in, and it's refreshing to see a content creator who isnt purposely showing them into a gendered bubble
I didn't even know what being trans was until after I realized I was trans.
As a smaller kiddo back in 2016, I had assumed Frisk's gender to be female because hair I guess. But, by random chance, I had happened to find some let's-player whose name I don't remember trying out some online Undertale mod thing-- I don't think it played out like Undertale, but I do remember that at least the first two rooms had the same layout. Anyhoo, this person was laughing at the amount of people who chose to play as Frisk, even when there were so many other options. I remember them saying something like "so many genderless children" in a joke-y kind of way. At first, I was pretty confused. My mom had told me what the word "gender" meant prior (but at the time, we both only really knew the binary), so I was just like "GENDERLESS IS AN OPTION?!!!" (Not really but you know. Shocked). My world had been opened up because of a throwaway joke. I remember running into the living room sometime after and proudly proclaiming that I was a genderless child. After that, mom learned what "non-binary" meant, but when she explained it to me, my stubborn ass refused to use it and kept saying I was a genderless child for a while after.
Nowadays, I know that my gender is heavily masc-leaning, but if it weren't for Undertale, I might not have learned that I wasn't cis-- at least not for a few years. Thanks, Undertale.
This argument entirely rests on the assumption that a character cannot both have a defined personality and an ambiguous gender. However, this is not the case. We can take Niko from Oneshot as an example - they are explicitly *not you*, have a defined personality, and have been explicitly stated by the authors to have no canonical gender. If this category existed, it's very hard to say at least the humans in Undertale/Deltarune are more likely to be in this category than the "canonically nonbinary" one - especially since the official Legends of Localization book says Frisk's gender is "unstated" - Toby could very easily have had that line removed or had it changed so that it said Frisk is nonbinary, but he didn't.
If it were just that, then I could see the point. But the whole thing with these characters is that you are meant to place your own personality/beliefs/gender identity onto them, only to slowly but surely realize that they are not just a projection of yourself. It makes more narrative sense for their whole being to be individualized at the end of the game, instead of "yeah they have a personal backstory, personality, aspirations, preferences and unique characteristics and I am aware that my projection onto them is different from who they truly are, but I still believe they don't have a set gender, because it is not explicitly said that they do". Toby didn't sway people one way or the other, so we need to form our opinions based on the information and interpretations that are most relevant.
Also, if you could provide the specific quote where it says that Frisk's gender is ambiguous, it'b be great, cause I could not find it for the life of me. And speaking of that, idk how canon the whole book is, since from what ive heard it literally can confirm anything about the player, chara, gaster etc... so until there's an official response from toby or an in-game confirmation, allow my dose of skepticism.
Player: Are you a boy or girl
Frisk: Child
Player: What are you?
Frisk: Human
Player: WHAT'S INSIDE YOUR PANTS
Frisk: D E T E R M I N A T I O N
I personally don’t have much to add to the topic, but damn.
You deserve more subs bud! You make amazing content, keep it up 💕
Thank you!
Frisk and chara are designed to be as blank as possible, whilst kris is their own being. So kris is truly nonbinary whilst frisk and chara are blank purposefully
I know that this is what's generally accepted in the community, but it is mainly based on their own interpretations and not concrete proof. I would love to give actual examples as to why you believe this way.
@@tanyas. I know this is REAAALLYYY late, but i remember Toby saying Frisk was a template for the player to see themselves in them. That's why their skin is yellow, because it's a "neutral" color. Not sure if it's the same for Chara, tho.
@@tanyas. Is not confirmed but is an strategy that most devs uses in their games when they are creating literal 0 dialogue character that you control, they do that because when a character like Frisk that do not show any personality, is why the devs wants you to understand that their gender is by your own identity.
Also, the big problem here is not seeing the canon.
Canon literally says that is not female or male, is the decision of the player, they stay genderless.
People misguide this by saying that is canon ''No binary'' when its totally different creating a character that he inself identifys and non binary, than a character that is created LITERALLY as genderless)
The real problem in this debate Is that most people attacks other people to make their own versions of Frisk and Chara, that also happened to Jakei Peñaloza by making Frisk and Chara of his own AU Males.
And that happened too with Flowerfell, Echotale.
And even fanfics of the original Undertale.
The excuse? is that people are somehow hurting LGBT community to draw or create a female or male Frisk.
They are stupid, of course, because there are no excuse to harass other artists or creators by their own interpretations that should be ''canon'' of a character.
The most sane conclusion is that players can decide by their own headcannons if Frisk or Chara is male or female or literally whatever.
Doesn't hurt anyone and don't even hurt the narrative.
It is a narrative technique used in others games.
I really like video game analysis videos, and this one was really good! Keep it up!
Thank you, I'll be making more in the future, as my schedule allows it.
Oh sorry I meant to say that, I wanted to say "they respawned after 2 years."
I'm back to my save point ;)
Yes.. but the problem/flaw with your logic is that saying that just because a character isn't a complete placeholder that an ambiguous description means "gender non conforming".
I can still point at a random person in the distance who I don't know, and describe them, but that doesn't mean that because they are referred to that way means that's what they ARE.
You see what I mean?
If it were just that, then I could see the point. But the whole thing with these characters is that you are meant to place your own personality/beliefs/gender identity onto them, only to slowly but surely realize that they are not just a projection of yourself. It makes more narrative sense for their whole being to be individualized at the end of the game, instead of "yeah they have a personal backstory, personality, aspirations, preferences and unique characteristics and I am aware that my projection onto them is different from who they truly are, but I still believe they don't have a set gender, because it is not explicitly said that they do"
For Frisk, maybe I could see other monsters not asking their gender and using they as a placeholder. Chara and Kris live with monsters and are capable of speaking, so this can't be the case for them.
your videos are really good. you should make more
Thank you! Currently working on an UT/DR theory about humans' character traits and their connections. It touches on the power of the soul, the player's control and the underlying themes foreshadowed in DR.
This is a really good video, and I'm very glad it popped up in my recommended! I'm definitely sticking around for other stuff you might do in the future :3
Also I've always found it so funny when people argue that Kris uses they/them as a stand-in for the player. Like, with Frisk/Chara i could see why people thought that. You name Chara and Frisk's personality outside of your control is very small. I still thought those people were wrong, but i could see how they got to that point.
But with Kris that argument falls apart so hard it is almost laughable. Kris is so distinct from the player that it can't be ignored
In Frisk's case you could _maybe_ argue that the monsters simply don't know Frisk's pronouns and default to they/them, which is relatively unlikely to be hurtful.
still, i think it's pretty unambiguous that all three of the humans canonically prefer they/them (and possibly it/its in Chara's case).
It's understandable why people come to the conclusion that frisk and chara's gender is ambiguous rather than specifically nonbinary, but with Kris, it's misreading one of the game's central themes. Kris' personality outside of the player's influence is shown _much_ more frequently and conspicuously than either of the other two.
7:57 Seeing as most monster's mistake Frisk for a human, I don't think they can read Frisk's mind and from that learn their gender identity...
During the sans dinner, sans does not need to read Frisk's mind to tell that they've died or not...
He just needs to say, "and you have not died a single time" and Frisk's reaction tells him everything.
During the sans fight, sans can tell how many times the player dies by reading their expression, not their mind...
Even though I view Frisk as enby, I think the reason all the monsters refer to frisk with they/them pronouns and gender-neutral language is just because they don't want to assume Frisk's gender.
(Just because monsters use they/them for enby monsters does not mean they can't also use they/them when they don't know someone's gender)
Everyone who refers to Frisk with they/them pronouns has just met them, and thus they have no way to tell Frisk's gender identity without asking them, which nobody does. (Unless Frisk is wearing something with Enby pride colors, or has a they/them pronoun pin)
Nobody in Undertale asks Frisk "What's your pronouns?" so, I think monsters are just using they/them because they are not assuming Frisk's gender...
Just to be clear, this is not an argument for Frisk not being enby (especially seeing as I view them as enby)...
Just wanted to highlight that in Undertale nobody has any way to tell Frisk's gender identity, unless Frisk is wearing something that indicates it...
+ I don't think the above argument could be applied to Chara/Kris.
Seeing as most folks in UT/DR knew Kris and Chara for quite some before the events of each game, these characters referring to Chara and Frisk with they/them pronouns is very strong evidence for these characters being enby, (Especially seeing as those who are close to them refer to them as they, like Asriel for Chara and Toriel for Kris)...
I hope my comment did not come off as too antagonistic, as vids like this are important.
I'm not enby, but I am trans and consider myself an ally to my fellow enbys siblings.
Just personally feel like Frisk's enby status is not as clear-cut as Kris or Chara...
I agree, technically there are no clear cut answers regarding Frisk's gender, but there is even more of a lack of proof that they are in the gender binary, or that they are assigned their gender by the player.
I also am not sure how sans is able to read only the expression of a person to know that they died 4 or 5 times to him in the Geno run, or the fact that you're "not really a human" even before seeing you commit atrocities in Snowdin. And speaking of Sans, he is able to determine from his first encounter with flowey that he is a "guy", and he is a literal soulless flower, so...
I appreciate any and every amicable input, I really don't want anyone to think that I am not willing to listen to other opinions. I hope that you can see where I'm coming from with my arguments, but again, they are not bulletproof.
@@tanyas. I agree with you... There's no evidence that Frisk is within the gender binary, or that their gender is "the players choice..."
Do feel like there's a lot unclear about what's going on with sans and his "face reading" abilities...
(Plus it's not 100% perfect, seeing as he cant accurately tell how many times you've died after 11 deaths)
He is able to tell Frisk's LV level during the judgment hall, so maybe that's how he can tell that stuff happened in the ruins (Plus Frisk acting very differently in no mercy scenes as opposed to neutral/pacifist).
Honestly I dont know what to make about monsters telling that Frisk is "not a human" in the genocide run, (especially with Asgore not even recognizing Frisk as a human when he does in all other routes)... Though I dont see how that would allow them to infer Frisk's gender.
(Personally, I head canon that Frisk & Chara realized they were enby from all the monsters using gender neutral language for them, and the euphoria they got from that helped them realize that they were enby... Kind of a "chicken and the egg" thing. I'm actually considering writing a fanfics, and have a scene planned where Azzy helps Chara realize their enby partly inspired by the above.)
Also, I dont think the true pacifist ending is the first time sans encounters/becomes aware of Flowey...
During the sans hangout at Grillby's, sans asks Frisk if "[you've] ever heard of a talking flowery?"
He plays dumb and acts as if he's talking about someone using an echo flower to mess with Papyrus, but seeing as "talking flower" is in yellow, the things sans says this flower told Papyrus, and how one of the Papyrus/Undyne calls confirms that Flowey was interacting with Papyrus (Call them a second time in the right room of the MTT hotel), I'm pretty sure sans was well aware of Flowey's existence before the true pacifist ending. (Especially seeing as sans is aware that saves/loads/resets are a thing and likely knows that Flowey was behind them before Frisk arrives)
You bring up very good points. If you allow me, I would like to add on to them with my own 2 cents:
Regarding Sans' Geno kill count, I think that it is just done for the convenience of the player: dying so many times means that you are ptobably grinding for a win, so its redundant and even annoying to point it out.
Also, it may be possible to determine Frisk's LV level beforehand, but seeing the fact that it takes him a good few seconds to analyse you in the judgement hall, I'm not sure when that occasion may occur, outside of maybe the dinner section.
I wansn't implying that because Frisk is not regarded as human in the geno run then that means that monsters can determine their gender. I was just saying that there are things about Frisk's appearance, facial expression and demeanor that we the players will never be aware of, if not explicitly pointed out by other monsters.
Lastly, I am aware of that "talking flower" conversation with Flowey, but I am not sure to what extent Sans knows about Flowey in this particular timeline. We know that he caused flowey "a fair share of resets", but Sans is not able to remember previous timelines like flowey does, he mostly relies on science and a deja-vu feeling that a lot of monsters have.
@@tanyas. Yah, defiantly for the game sans cant count because that would get annoying + would be a lot of work for Toby, (though diegetically the dialogue seems to imply that at most, sans knows the kills are roughly "X" but cant really tell...)
Dont have much more to say except that I very much agree with you that sans does not remember past resets...
Honestly want to make a video about Undertale/Deltarune misconceptions/fanon, like Flowey being emotionless when he's really compassionless, or Berdly having a crush on Noelle when he does not...
Think it would be hilarious if in later DR chapters, Berdly's...
"Oh no! Noelle has a crush on me but I dont love her back! I must pretend to be into her so she will stay my friend!" even though she does not have a crush on him because she's a gay,* develops into a "mutually unrequited" situation or something where Noelle also starts thinking "Oh no! Berdly has a crush on me and does not know I'm a lesbian! How will I ever tell him I'm not interested?!?!?!?"
(The thought of both Berdly and Noelle worrying that the other is going to take their rejection badly just seems so funny to me...)
*(I know she could hypothetically be bi or pan but Noelle only being attracted to girls makes her supposed crush on Berdly even funnier to me...)
Sorry kind of lost my train of thought there, but thank you for responding to this transbian's comments!
I didn't know people think Noelle has a crush on Berdly, I mean, Berdly thought that she had feelings for him and at the end of the chapter he says he does not reciprocate them, but Noelle really seems taken aback by his assumptions. Nevermind the fact that she is head over heels for Susie
THANK YOU. THANK YOU. THANK YOU.THANK YOU.
Great video :)
Honestly, the discussion continuing on for so long as a whole annoys me a bit. It’s not explicitly said ‘oh hey they’re NB’ because it isn’t the most important thing about the characters, it’s just one aspect, and people can fit into those categories without it being a defining trait of them.
Nobody said that having a gender identity is a defining trait, but one aspect that is misinterpreted by a lot of people. If you are not interested in this topic, just don't watch the video, don't comment on it etc. There are people who care about these things and people who don't, and for those there is a myriad of videos discussing other things.
@@tanyas. I do understand that, and I mean no hate through this comment. I’m just frustrated with the arguments going on and on, in circles, nobody really convincing anyone believing otherwise.
Then don't click on a video going on about it....
honestly with Kris' gender even if we don't know what it is, i think it's clever to refer Kris as Them/They, since it can be used to both singular and plural, on the plural side, since Kris and the Player is connected, is a really good plot device to makes us connect with the world and feel part of it, and on the singular side we don't know Kris' gender and neither Kris knows ours.
I very rarely leave comments on videos, and i'm 2 months late, but honestly, i just want to congratulate you on a well done video, it was straight to the point, and got all the ideas across in a quick, simple, easy to understand, convincing manner.
if you'd like to skip my long winded rambling (which is very common for me, and why i don't often comment), but still wish to see my opinion on the matter, you may skip to the summarized version (or, in other words, a shorter rambling) which is at the bottom of this comment
my personal opinion on the matter (before watching this video, that is) was that it was kinda just up for interpretation with frisk and chara, like many believe (i was surprised to find out that there is any disagreement on kris being Non-Binary, as it should be very clear), and i never even blink when they were saw or portrayed as otherwise in fan interpretations, and thought they weren't any less canon. i still often called both frisk and chara they/them, but that was less out of a concrete belief that it's their canon gender, and more because that's what the game called them, and i didn't feel any need to change that, as frisk and chara always felt like they were their own characters separate to the player, though i assumed that was just a me thing.
my opinion now, after watching this video? not all that different really, i'll still be calling frisk, chara, and kris (because there is no interpretation with kris, i saw them being non-binary as canon from the start) they/them, but now because i firmly believe that it is what was intended, and what is canon. this isn't to say i think any female or male interpretations of frisk and chara shouldn't be valid or allowed, people can do as they please i suppose, as stuff like genderbending isn't very uncommon in media, however i no longer believe those interpretations are canon to the original game.
SHORTEND VERSION BELOW
to summarize my boring and long rambling, i always just left frisk and chara as non-binary in my interpretation due to seeing them as separate characters from me as the player, but thought that really any interpretation was canon. I now believe that them being separate characters with a set gender identity (that being non-binary) is the canon. i still believe that people can do whatever they wish with their interpretation of the characters, just that it isn't canon. to give an example to explain my point of view, i think of a female or male frisk and chara as something like underfell and outertale, it isn't the canon of the original undertale, but rather, an alteration of it.
oh, yea, and kris is also non-binary, i don't understand where any room for argument could be with that.
to anyone that bothered to read this, hi, i'm sorry for making such a long comment, thank you for reading though, and to the creator of this video Tanya S., well done on a very well made video, i have decided to subscribe, as i look forward to your future videos.
i wish you all good day/night, and until we meet again in the odd and unending world of the internet.
Thank you so much! Also you're not rambling, I love reading comments and interpretations, it's how we get discussions going :)
@@tanyas. Glad to hear the length of my comment wasn't a bother, as I tend to worry I talk or type too long when explaining things
Awesome video! Keep it up
Dang why are all comments so cool and wellthought .Great work
Gender is social construct
In my opinion
I respect everyones opinion on the matter
My video would not be made if gender would be solely defined by an objective truth- gender is a social construct, because it is associated with certain physical, mental and emotional traits, roles in society, personal liberties, and many more things that are solely determined by the perception of society at large, not innate traits.
But just because we can declassify gender as an objective thing does not mean that we can erase the concept at large. Since the world of UT/DR has gendered pronouns and uses terms like "man", "girl" etc, with the same meanings as in our world, the idea of gender is still present, regardless of the strictness of gender roles. So an individual acquires a gender identity, whether by choice or by being labeled by others.
My video discusses the idea that the humans in game are their own people, different from the player, therefore having the freedom to have their own gender identity, not imposed by external forces. The evidence provided hints at the idea that they would probably not fall under either of the gender binaries, but rather the non-binary umbrella (agender, genderqueer, gender fluid etc.)
It's a really great video. Do you plan on posting Deltarune or Undertale theory videos in the future ?
Thanks for feedback! Yes, I'm currently writing one on the humans' souls and their interconnected traits, I think it's a new take on the subject matter!
[SORRY BAD ENGLISH IM NOT ENGLISH]
The big problem here is not seeing the canon.
Canon literally says that is not female or male, is the decision of the player for now because Toby didn't say anything about it directly, so they stay genderless.
People misguide this by saying that is canon ''No binary'' when its totally different creating a character that he inself identifys and non binary, than a character that is created LITERALLY as genderless)
The real problem in this debate Is that most people attacks other people to make their own versions of Frisk and Chara, that also happened to Jakei Peñaloza by making Frisk and Chara of his own AU Males.
And that happened too with Flowerfell, Echotale.
And even fanfics of the original Undertale.
The excuse? is that people are somehow hurting LGBT community to draw or create a female or male Frisk.
They are stupid, of course, because there are no excuse to harass other artists or creators by their own interpretations that should be ''canon'' of a character.
The most sane conclusion is that players can decide by their own headcannons if Frisk or Chara is male or female or literally whatever.
Doesn't hurt anyone and don't even hurt the narrative.
It is a narrative technique used in others games.
People, create your own fanfics, drawings, AUS and make Frisk, Chara and Kris and make them literally the way you want it them to be.
You want them Genderless? Trans? Male? Female?
It is okay.
Because this is fiction, and people don't deserve harassment or any kind of shit just because people are dumb when literally interpreting Frisk as a Female is literally nothing wrong there.
Frisk, Chara at least doesn't fit in the ''nonbinary'' community because is different creating a character that identifys themselves as non binary, than literal creating a character that DOESN'T have any sex or gender.
Greetings and nice vid.
Flowerfell is gross
I'm nonbinary myself, and honestly I really cringe every time someone misgenders these characters. It gives me dysphoria by proxy :P And it really reminds you how little people are willing to acknowledge the existence of genderqueer people.
Yeah, it really makes you question how you would be treated IRL by all of these people if you said you were nb
years get taken off my life every time i hear someone call kris a boy or "he"
I understand that non-binary representation is important and everything but for me it's kinda sad that quiet, reserved, depressed and kind of 'feminine' cis men are a bit overlooked in queer media. Almost seems like they want guys to think that you can't be androgynous, asocial, gentle and melancholic and still not be non-binary nor femboy, but a cisgender heterosexual male. And don't let me even start on representation of straight role-reversal relationships
I relate to Kris a lot in terms of being a depressed antisocial dude and being fond of stronger girls in my teenage years so i don't think it's too bad for my headcanon of Kris being male. Not enforcing it on anyone obviously
Imo, Ralsei, Asgore, Asriel, Mettaton are all male representation of the "unconventionally masculine" in one way or another. There aren't many cis characters in UT/DR that strictly adhere to their gender roles.
YESSSSSS
You playing as multiple humans in different routes is improbable, maybe you just don't go far enough in the game for the name reveal scene. Also, you probably already know this, but the player is confirmed to be canon in Undertale.
I know that the distinction between the player and the human you play as is pretty much set in stone, I don't know whether it is confirmed or not. Also, the part about Frisk's appearance in UT is a bit speculative on my part, I just wanted to point out some interesting connections.
in my opinion they are all non-binary (human anyway)
Now please don't hate me in replies but i think Frisk and Chara are more likely Female.
And i say *more likely* not entirely.
Both of them have a haircut which females do have.
Chara also has cheeks that looks more girl-lish
On the other hand, Kris is more likely Male.
Again i am not saying they're male i am saying more likely.
Their appearance are more relatable to guys and the haircut they have aren't identical to females.
Tests my opinion tho and it's my theory.
I don’t dislike non binary people but I don’t support it either but have nothing against it
We know for a fact that Chara is female and Kris is male. Frisk is whatever you want
Can you please inform me of those facts?
@@tanyas. idk everybody literally says that they are, and everybody is sure that frisk is genderless
Ok but there are no facts saying that. A lot of people see them as nb as well, if you will read the comments of this video you will see. Also, they are only reffered as they/them in game and are never regarded as boy/girl, only children/humans.
There are a lot of misconceptions in the UT/DR community, I made this video to present the actual facts present in the game.
@@tanyas. I guess that is just fanon undertale
And everybody said for quite a long time that Napstablook, Mad Dummy, and Monster Kid were male. Surprise surprise, these characters are exclusively referred to as they/them in-game. Fandom is wrong a lot of the time, especially when it comes to nb rep. It's luckily a bit better over time, but you'll still see people denying the humans as nb rep. Especially for Kris, they're referred to by they/them quite a lot in ch2.
Frisk and chara are female and kris is male and im really sure
What makes you think that? /gen
@@wolfkitty42 maybe monster doesn't know how to recognize if a human is a girl or a boy
@@MRjmaren I guess I could understand with Frisk, but Chara and Kris were both adopted and Kris at least has been living with monsters for the last 8 years.
@mrjblackmist I you could provide any evidence supporting your points, I would love to hear it
@@tanyas. I think monster doesn't know how to recognize if a human is a boy or a girl