This man in incredible. It’s so rare, it feels, to find men who push me in my walk with God. I always feel starved for more, religiously; or stuck. Like there isn’t enough resources or higher expectations out of Christians. Everyone’s just so content to be saved and never want to push us to becoming better. I want to be a better person for the people around me, and I can’t do that without help. And men like Tim help me to tangibly grasp clear areas where I’m lacking.
Time Keller is speaking TRUTH People in general see God working for us and not us fulfilling His will for our purpose to which only comes through friendship in spirit You have to want it Gods word is not cultural based The word of God does not change Many will be manipulated by forces that make things easy Stand steady in the law in life Stand steady in spirit for revelations Open the door to HIM We are in the midst of open doors Discern and test the many doors about to open which we are told will happen
You can be unforgiving and want justice without feeling any anger, without emotion, just because it seems the most logical thing to do so as to produce justice.
I was very excited for this book, however after getting through the intro (which was extremely difficult based off misrepresented history and honesty lack of empathy) I found a decent balance and interesting dive into forgiveness. Some of which I don't agree with and some that has made me deeply question things which I can appreciate. Sadly, evangelical leaders have raked psychology over the coals based off partial realities but there are several wonderful psychological methods and truths that align a great deal with scripture. Sadly this was a bit of a let down and continues to show that the big evangelical world isn't ready to face the reality of the callousness of their silence and failure to weep with those who weep. All that, I appreciate a great deal of Tim Kellers books and teachings, this was one that left me conflicted.
I just had a Friend hurt me very deeply and she doesn't even Get it, what she did or said to me and THAT is what I struggle with.. I forgive her but reconciling with a person who just tries to justify what they did and explain it away, is very hard for me!
Sometimes unfortunately you can't reconcile because it takes two to reconcile. And some people are addicted to narcissism. So they won't see what theyve done.
@PeaceFan1 I too, have struggled for a long time with forgiveness. I wanted to forgive, but the person who wronged me, continued (and still continues) to try to hurt me (and justify, and explain it away). I wanted to forgive, but this person just did not deserve my forgiveness! One day, in the midst of my struggle to forgive this person, the LORD reminded me of all my own horrific sins against God, and how HE forgave me. And how HE STILL forgives me when I fail to behave as a disciple of HIS. When I remembered ALL of my own sins (for which I did not DESERVE God's forgiveness), then I could see clearly ... how to pray for the person who hurts me. Then I realized why Jesus said: "Pray like this: 'Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy Name... forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us.'" When you first remember your own sin, and then pray for your enemy... your perspective begins to change, and then you're able to release the bitterness... and finally forgive them.
@@terrimartinez6922just be sure not to remain in an abusive relationship, as even Tim Keller in the book says “it’s not loving to allow someone to sin against you”. It’s not good for them or you! Broken trust is a warning that you HAVE to establish boundaries with a person, forgiveness means you pray for them and let go of any revenge you feel, forgiveness does NOT mean you let the snake keep having access to your arm!!!
Yes and Jesus felt the same exact way you did and do… look at the cross. Feel with Him. We over and over and over again sin against Him. He has come to a place of compassion instead of judgement. By giving her “not knowing” to the cross, you then can give God the ability to judge and open their eyes. You are responsible to love your enemies. Pray for those who persecute you. Let Jesus judge what they do.
I'm a secular person who is interested in forgiveness. Sometimes i describe myself as a non-believing Christian because I think Jesus said some enduring things but i struggle with aspects of the gospel.
Dear God, please cleanse our thoughts of anger and hatred. I know that hatred is not your will for us. Bring peace and comfort to our hearts to rest in you and fill our hearts with your love. Thank you Lord ❤ @토론토셀
This goes against the grain and he did NOT go through great lengths to soften the blow. No sugar coating…countercultural for sure. I will have to listen to this again. Convicted!
Why forgive? Because Jesus said so, authoritatively right after The Lord's Prayer, among other places. We dare not be the ungrateful forgiven servant who exercises wrath on pennies when we have been forgiven billions...
Not being too beholden to "winsomeness" may not be *too* far from being angry all the time but it is certainly quite distinct. To draw too close an association is an error. It's tempting to treat this like the admonition of Jesus saying even having hate in your heart is like murder... the association Kellar seems to be making does not implicitly follow. "Winsomeness" often insinuates placation and a lack of kind (necessary) rebuke to avoid offending someone in error. FirmNess and rebuke are still love and not anger or hate are they not?
Repentance isn't just saying "sorry"... It is often misrepresented, feigned, or misunderstood as such but obviously that is not the case. The Apostle Paul killed Christians but *truly* repented and ministered.... we can't just write off actual repentance because of the cheap imitations.
How to interpret Christianity through the spectacles of American society, with a little help from Luthern lenses, But completely sightless to see through the eyes of the incarnate Son, who is the Light of the World, and to see through His eyes we must study every word He declared and every deed He did, and ignore the words and works of man, unless they confirm His words, as we read in Hebrews chapter 1 and 2, where the Son of God is the Meeager of God and not a mere messenger, like the prophets, and so not to heed Him is to go to hell
John 5:22, John 5:27, John 8:15 says it all. There is NO JUDGEMENT during the period of Grace. Judgement will come... Judgment belongs to God alone. Because of original sin, we are judges constant, to our own detriment. Forgiveness is the act of passing back the administration of judgment to The Almighty God. This pleases Him. The Bible is clear that civil problems should not be brought before magistrates and solicitors. They are "of the world" and we are not. amen The original sin, I would rename to the original panoply of sins, because they were MANY. A fundamental one was 'judgment' (knowing good and evil) which is the purview of The Almighty Father and Son alone. Even Michael, when arguing about Moses' body with a fallen being who blasphemed God, checked himself with "The Lord rebuke you!" (thank you, Michael!) All this to say: avoid the world's court system as much as possible (remember the admonition to "settle with your adversary, even on the way to the judge") and 'judge not, lest ye be judged by the same standard'. The act of forgiveness will do two things. (it does NOT let them off the hook) The two things are: 1) releases you from the weight of and bondage to "the offense(s)", 2) with forgiveness, we release ALL responsibility to God as Judge, He "buys the contract" so to speak. In so doing, He WILL re-imburse your 'loss'. The Almighty Father of us is very pleased with these acts of faith. He then will preside over the complaint and take action! You may live to see the result, you may not. It's not important because faith is the operative here, not sight. I can tell you (from experience) that The Majesty Creator creates wonderful solutions to behold! Often a win/win outcome with willing participants. Remember that the universe is at His feet and your complaint is a wee bitty thing in comparison. So, faithful one, get onboard and get "rejoicing with exultant expectation"! Our Master has great plans for YOU! Amen
We must forgive someone who repents. If someone doesn’t repent we must pray for them to repent and for God to forgive them. God will not forgive the unrepentant and we mustn’t either. It’s ungodly and the biggest lie that perpetuates sin in the church today. It ushers many unrepentant sinners to hell.
Luke 11:4 And forgive us our sins- just as we forgive those who have sinned against us. Missing the part where Christ says “as we forgive those who repent”. If they repent is between God and themselves. God tells me I have to forgive to be forgiven. Matthew 6:15 But if you refuse to forgive others, your Father will not forgive your sins.
You lost me with the Botham Jean's brothers story hugging that heartless, shameless murderer. Jean's killer was crying crocodile tears for sympathy, not repentance. She was hoping that this for sure was her get out of jail free card and when that didn't happen, she was plotting her appeal within days. This storyline of Black forgiveness in the face of horrific injustice is exactly what White Supremacy demands and expects of Black people while they continue to perpetrate harm. Worst of all, religion has historically been used as a tool to condition Black people to accept it. White America loves nothing more than a Black martyr. My faith teaches me that righteousness and justice are the foundation of his throne and without repentance, there is no reconciliation. No justice, no peace.
Just my opinion…but you can’t just forgive everyone. We can’t simply forgive killers, rapists, the Hamas terrorists. Can they be forgiven? Yes but is saying sorry going to fix their crimes? No
Here step by step is why Tim’s thinking about forgiveness outlined here cannot be correct. Tim is a Calvinist who at the same time tries to appeal to non-Calvinists. As long as he remains a Calvinist his Calvinism will dictate how he thinks about forgiveness (it will lead him to interpret the bible in ways that are self-evidently wrong - as I am about to show) - he believes in a God who embraces only the elect - and when they are unrepentant. The non-Calvinist believes that God forgives any person who turns to him in faith - saving faith also being repentance - and repentance being necessary to be forgiven. Before we go any further let me point out that there is no such thing as offering people OUR forgiveness. When people wrong us they wrong us because they wrong God. We don't have our own authoritative standards of right and wrong which people violate - to be authoritative any moral standard would need to be ‘outside creation’. Therefore who are we to forgive anyone? And who are we to offer God's forgiveness to people on any terms other than the terms under which he offers his forgiveness? Whether Tim believes that Mark 11:25 is about offering people OUR forgiveness or GOD'S forgiveness isn’t made clear in the video. He either imagines that there is such a thing as OUR forgiveness - that we must offer people our forgiveness whether or not the person repents - or that we must offer people God’s forgiveness whether or not they repent. It helps Tim not to make himself clear on that question because if the only forgiveness we can offer people is God's forgiveness it becomes clear that the Calvinist is interpreting Mark 11:25 to be about offering God's forgiveness to both the elect and the non-elect. Either that or Tim believes God predestines all events to make sure we never offer his forgiveness to anyone he hasn’t chosen before creation to save. But either interpretation is inconsistent with the rest of scripture (which says that repentance must precede forgiveness. For example see Acts 3:19 ESV Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out, This leaves Tim with no way to make sense of Luke 17:3. He says it is about doing justice - but he cannot explain either why doing justice is necessary if God has already forgiven someone - or why forgiveness in Luke 17:3 is being offered AFTER the offender repents - if the person has already been forgiven why wait to inform them until after they repent? These interpretations of the two verses amount to Tim attempting to argue that justice follows mercy - which contradicts all biblical teaching about the cross - mercy has no definition without the existence of justice. I have already mentioned Acts 3:19 as proof of that. So what is Mark 11:25 about? It reveals that there is a vertical and a horizontal part to our forgiving on behalf of God. The first half is about sharing God's forgiving heart (and actually forgiving anyone who we haven't forgiven who are repentant) and the second is to then operate on God's behalf consistent with the terms under which he offers forgiveness. It certainly isn’t about our assuring people who are unrepentant either that they have God’s forgiveness - or our forgiveness. Tim isn’t wrong to believe in the importance of having the right attitude before approaching a person who has wronged us. But Calvinism is no help in determining what that attitude should be. Is it the justice of God towards the elect - which seeks to create a path to mercy - or is it God's justice towards the non-elect - which is without mercy? Here is why it is ALWAYS restorative - and towards all people (meaning that it seeks IF POSSIBLE to restore) - never retributive (even when God’s justice is vengeance - see Nahum 1). Hebrews 13:8 says that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. It is impossible to interpret that verse to mean that God is unchanging in mercy towards the elect and unchanging in his lack of mercy to the non-elect. Since it is not possible we must conclude that God is unchanging in mercy to all people. Tim instead believes we should make ourselves ready to approach the offender along Calvinist lines - he appears to believe that the only way to make ourselves ready is to forgive the unrepentant person. He doesn't consider the option of aligning our heart with God's - which has the added bonus of being biblical (in not contravening Luke 17:3). This book of Tim’s will end up doing a great deal of damage - just as TGC’s Calvinism damages the gospel by suggesting that salvation begins by God embracing - regenerating - the unrepentant person. Tim no doubt imagines that there can be no harm in encouraging people to be more forgiving - and therefore thinks the book can only be a win. But that’s absolutely not the case. The authority to forgive people on behalf of God is a huge responsibility granted to God’s people. Premature forgiveness - or forgiveness that isn’t offered but should be offered - each has potentially devastating effects. Many have the same wrong attitude towards judging people - they imagine that NOT making negative judgements of people is all that is required to be faithful - when the sin of judging is also about making wrong or premature positive assessments. See John 7:24 for proof of that. For example consider the harm in a board of elders appointing a man who is a legendary preacher but has question marks over his relationships with women to the position of senior pastor. That is a sinful positive judgement. Offering people God’s forgiveness when he isn’t offering it is a calamity - the judgement for which will fall on bible teachers who dared to use God’s authority in a way designed to serve their own interests. In Tim’s case the irresponsibility doesn’t lie solely in his obviously incorrect theology of forgiveness - it also lies in his hidden unreasoned commitment to Calvinism that led to it (TGC refuses to openly argue its case for Calvinist doctrines in the form of articles for each doctrine which anyone can read and scrutinise - if they truly believe in the Calvinist building blocks of salvation they have a strange way of expressing that - their lack of openness on fundamental issues - the building blocks of salvation - is proof of their lack of integrity. The few articles they have produced are embarrassingly lacking - for example no article of theirs addresses the verses I have quoted below - hint - because they destroy Calvinism). Tim holds to Calvinism (as do TGC) while refusing to explain verses from scripture which in the plainest terms say that Jesus died for all people and that God will accept any repentant person. Can anyone at TGC explain to me - if they have personally experienced God’s mercy - how they can justify their failure to even address passages like those below when a heart changed by mercy should be EAGER to find evidence in scripture of God’s willingness to forgive all people? Romans 5:18 ESV Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 1 John 2:2 ESV He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. Acts 10:34-35 ESV So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him". TGC cannot have the fellowship of the world church while it remains committed to ignoring all Spirit to spirit testimony from God (since how can it be trusted if it is always capable of being ignored on the basis that God may not be the same God to someone else?) in favour of the fallen conclusions of their minds - while it maligns God fundamentally in saying that he is mostly without mercy (by numbers of people). There is no way to consider this secondary doctrinal error - and no way to interpret TGC’s refusal to change direction despite every effort to convince them to do so as anything other than final.
I understand your point but us Reformed Christians are part of the "World Church" that consists of those who perscribe to the Nicene Creed instead of the modern "evangelical Church". While not all the same: Lutherans, Anglicans, and other traditional Protestants do believe in total depravity and election at the very least. Large parts of the Roman and Eastern Churches as well to an extent. We don't seek to be part of this modern movement that consists of noncredal Pentecostals, Baptists, and Pietists (ev free etc).
@@HearGodsWordHello. I didn't SAY the Calvinist view was wrong - I outlined reasoning which PROVED that Calvinist understanding of forgiveness is wrong (or at least Tim's views if they are not to be considered Calvinist views). You are welcome to engage with that reasoning. (Although as you will see below - he never did). If there be any doubt as to what I believe (I believe that as I explained what wasn't right I explained what is) below is a summary of principles for how Christians should forgive: - the only forgiveness that can be offered to people is God's forgiveness - not ours. - Since Luke 17:3 exists - since it does not suggest that people should be forgiven before they repent - since it only mentions forgiving people after they repent - we must not forgive people before they repent. - Mark 11:25 must therefore be interpreted in a way that does not contradict Luke 17:3. It is about sharing God's HEART to forgive (which may involve forgiving specific people we haven't forgiven who are repentant - it isn't about forgiving anyone before they repent). - Forgiveness is therefore not a separate subject from preaching the gospel - which is about God's forgiveness and is conditional upon people's repentance (Acts 3:19). And finally I will summarise the principles I just listed in a single sentence - we should offer people GOD's forgiveness - with HIS heart - and on HIS terms. (It isn't a point I made above but of course this is how things should be if believers are in dwelled by God - we don't offer people our love - we emanate his love to others).
@@HearGodsWord If I understand you correctly you are saying that I have not revealed whether the principles of forgiveness I have listed are compatible with both Calvinism and non-Calvinism - or only non-Calvinism. I can see that this is the case thank you - this leaves me with more to clarify. (I have however already revealed whose ideas about forgiveness I believe to be correct!) Here is why they are only compatible with non-Calvinism. And here is why Tim's views MUST be different to mine in order to attempt to preserve Calvinism (although as I explained - unsuccessfully). Calvinist conversion happens in the following order (not a time order but a logical order): -Regeneration (the spiritually insensitive person is made spiritually sensitive) -Sufficient sanctification must happen to make a person inclined towards sin in every inclination have faith - that faith being repentance. -Justification/Forgiveness follows that repentance -The union with God which is forgiveness is sanctification. The problem with Calvinist conversion is there are two 'sanctifications' - the first one which causes the unrepentant person to be repentant - and then the last one which is union with God. The problem lies with the first one. Because God is the source of all goodness sanctification is only ever the result of union with him. The Calvinist however is suggesting that God can sanctify a person sufficiently for them to repent without being united with them. Not so - how? (Non-Calvinism does not have this problem - the non-believer's not being entirely without goodness - nor spiritually insensitive - combined with enabling and enlightening (but not irresistible) grace - sees them able to make a FREE CHOICE to turn to God). And so Tim must in his model of forgiveness include some element in which some kind of "mercy" (which I have just shown isn't union with God) is offered to the unrepentant person which causes them to repent. So - in conclusion - only non-Calvinism is compatible with the principles of forgiveness I have sought to prove.
Un-forgiveness breeds incurable bitterness in the one who won’t forgive
This man in incredible. It’s so rare, it feels, to find men who push me in my walk with God. I always feel starved for more, religiously; or stuck. Like there isn’t enough resources or higher expectations out of Christians. Everyone’s just so content to be saved and never want to push us to becoming better. I want to be a better person for the people around me, and I can’t do that without help. And men like Tim help me to tangibly grasp clear areas where I’m lacking.
Time Keller is speaking TRUTH People in general see God working for us and not us fulfilling His will for our purpose to which only comes through friendship in spirit You have to want it Gods word is not cultural based The word of God does not change Many will be manipulated by forces that make things easy Stand steady in the law in life Stand steady in spirit for revelations Open the door to HIM We are in the midst of open doors Discern and test the many doors about to open which we are told will happen
I'm excited to read the book. This is so nice! I feel challenged to forgive... God, please help me!
I am forgiven past , present and future, thank God
I hope you're feeling well Mr. Keller!
He is feeling much, much better now. 🙂
You can be unforgiving and want justice without feeling any anger, without emotion, just because it seems the most logical thing to do so as to produce justice.
Yes you can be unforgiving ill leave that to that person and God i wish the best of luck to them
I was very excited for this book, however after getting through the intro (which was extremely difficult based off misrepresented history and honesty lack of empathy) I found a decent balance and interesting dive into forgiveness. Some of which I don't agree with and some that has made me deeply question things which I can appreciate. Sadly, evangelical leaders have raked psychology over the coals based off partial realities but there are several wonderful psychological methods and truths that align a great deal with scripture. Sadly this was a bit of a let down and continues to show that the big evangelical world isn't ready to face the reality of the callousness of their silence and failure to weep with those who weep. All that, I appreciate a great deal of Tim Kellers books and teachings, this was one that left me conflicted.
Its just easy to say……Oh Lord when will you come back
I just had a Friend hurt me very deeply and she doesn't even Get it, what she did or said to me and THAT is what I struggle with.. I forgive her but reconciling with a person who just tries to justify what they did and explain it away, is very hard for me!
Sometimes unfortunately you can't reconcile because it takes two to reconcile. And some people are addicted to narcissism. So they won't see what theyve done.
@PeaceFan1
I too, have struggled for a long time with forgiveness.
I wanted to forgive, but the person who wronged me, continued (and still continues) to try to hurt me (and justify, and explain it away). I wanted to forgive, but this person just did not deserve my forgiveness!
One day, in the midst of my struggle to forgive this person, the LORD reminded me of all my own horrific sins against God, and how HE forgave me. And how HE STILL forgives me when I fail to behave as a disciple of HIS.
When I remembered ALL of my own sins (for which I did not DESERVE God's forgiveness), then I could see clearly ... how to pray for the person who hurts me.
Then I realized why Jesus said: "Pray like this: 'Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy Name... forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us.'"
When you first remember your own sin, and then pray for your enemy... your perspective begins to change, and then you're able to release the bitterness... and finally forgive them.
@@terrimartinez6922just be sure not to remain in an abusive relationship, as even Tim Keller in the book says “it’s not loving to allow someone to sin against you”. It’s not good for them or you! Broken trust is a warning that you HAVE to establish boundaries with a person, forgiveness means you pray for them and let go of any revenge you feel, forgiveness does NOT mean you let the snake keep having access to your arm!!!
Yes and Jesus felt the same exact way you did and do… look at the cross. Feel with Him. We over and over and over again sin against Him. He has come to a place of compassion instead of judgement. By giving her “not knowing” to the cross, you then can give God the ability to judge and open their eyes. You are responsible to love your enemies. Pray for those who persecute you. Let Jesus judge what they do.
I'm a secular person who is interested in forgiveness. Sometimes i describe myself as a non-believing Christian because I think Jesus said some enduring things but i struggle with aspects of the gospel.
What do you struggle with?
Mainly the healing stuff and miracle stuff. I read that mostly as metaphor @@trentonmabry8189
Have you tried reading the scriptures, beginning to end? Also, asking God to reveal himself to you. God bless
So invigourating!
Dear God, please cleanse our thoughts of anger and hatred. I know that hatred is not your will for us. Bring peace and comfort to our hearts to rest in you and fill our hearts with your love. Thank you Lord ❤ @토론토셀
This goes against the grain and he did NOT go through great lengths to soften the blow.
No sugar coating…countercultural for sure.
I will have to listen to this again.
Convicted!
Is there one like this for boys
First. Those are some interesting examples you chose to use for the introduction. Is there a meta-message buried in there somewhere?
You seem to think there is.
Why forgive? Because Jesus said so, authoritatively right after The Lord's Prayer, among other places. We dare not be the ungrateful forgiven servant who exercises wrath on pennies when we have been forgiven billions...
Not being too beholden to "winsomeness" may not be *too* far from being angry all the time but it is certainly quite distinct. To draw too close an association is an error. It's tempting to treat this like the admonition of Jesus saying even having hate in your heart is like murder... the association Kellar seems to be making does not implicitly follow. "Winsomeness" often insinuates placation and a lack of kind (necessary) rebuke to avoid offending someone in error. FirmNess and rebuke are still love and not anger or hate are they not?
There is no longer a Right and Left, there is Pro Democracy and Pro Authoritarianism. Support Democracy 💙
Repentance isn't just saying "sorry"... It is often misrepresented, feigned, or misunderstood as such but obviously that is not the case. The Apostle Paul killed Christians but *truly* repented and ministered.... we can't just write off actual repentance because of the cheap imitations.
How to interpret Christianity through the spectacles of American society, with a little help from Luthern lenses, But completely sightless to see through the eyes of the incarnate Son, who is the Light of the World, and to see through His eyes we must study every word He declared and every deed He did, and ignore the words and works of man, unless they confirm His words, as we read in Hebrews chapter 1 and 2, where the Son of God is the Meeager of God and not a mere messenger, like the prophets, and so not to heed Him is to go to hell
John 5:22, John 5:27, John 8:15 says it all. There is NO JUDGEMENT during the period of Grace. Judgement will come... Judgment belongs to God alone. Because of original sin, we are judges constant, to our own detriment. Forgiveness is the act of passing back the administration of judgment to The Almighty God. This pleases Him. The Bible is clear that civil problems should not be brought before magistrates and solicitors. They are "of the world" and we are not. amen The original sin, I would rename to the original panoply of sins, because they were MANY. A fundamental one was 'judgment' (knowing good and evil) which is the purview of The Almighty Father and Son alone. Even Michael, when arguing about Moses' body with a fallen being who blasphemed God, checked himself with "The Lord rebuke you!" (thank you, Michael!) All this to say: avoid the world's court system as much as possible (remember the admonition to "settle with your adversary, even on the way to the judge") and 'judge not, lest ye be judged by the same standard'. The act of forgiveness will do two things. (it does NOT let them off the hook) The two things are: 1) releases you from the weight of and bondage to "the offense(s)", 2) with forgiveness, we release ALL responsibility to God as Judge, He "buys the contract" so to speak. In so doing, He WILL re-imburse your 'loss'. The Almighty Father of us is very pleased with these acts of faith. He then will preside over the complaint and take action! You may live to see the result, you may not. It's not important because faith is the operative here, not sight. I can tell you (from experience) that The Majesty Creator creates wonderful solutions to behold! Often a win/win outcome with willing participants. Remember that the universe is at His feet and your complaint is a wee bitty thing in comparison. So, faithful one, get onboard and get "rejoicing with exultant expectation"! Our Master has great plans for YOU! Amen
We must forgive someone who repents. If someone doesn’t repent we must pray for them to repent and for God to forgive them. God will not forgive the unrepentant and we mustn’t either. It’s ungodly and the biggest lie that perpetuates sin in the church today. It ushers many unrepentant sinners to hell.
Agreed Nikki - please read my post elsewhere here - which explains - among other things - that there is no such thing as OUR forgiveness (only God's).
“Father, forgive them for they know not what they’re doing.”
Luke 11:4 And forgive us our sins- just as we forgive those who have sinned against us.
Missing the part where Christ says “as we forgive those who repent”. If they repent is between God and themselves. God tells me I have to forgive to be forgiven. Matthew 6:15 But if you refuse to forgive others, your Father will not forgive your sins.
You lost me with the Botham Jean's brothers story hugging that heartless, shameless murderer. Jean's killer was crying crocodile tears for sympathy, not repentance. She was hoping that this for sure was her get out of jail free card and when that didn't happen, she was plotting her appeal within days. This storyline of Black forgiveness in the face of horrific injustice is exactly what White Supremacy demands and expects of Black people while they continue to perpetrate harm. Worst of all, religion has historically been used as a tool to condition Black people to accept it. White America loves nothing more than a Black martyr. My faith teaches me that righteousness and justice are the foundation of his throne and without repentance, there is no reconciliation. No justice, no peace.
Just my opinion…but you can’t just forgive everyone. We can’t simply forgive killers, rapists, the Hamas terrorists. Can they be forgiven? Yes but is saying sorry going to fix their crimes? No
Why should the church forgive you for your stance on covid?
Here step by step is why Tim’s thinking about forgiveness outlined here cannot be correct.
Tim is a Calvinist who at the same time tries to appeal to non-Calvinists. As long as he remains a Calvinist his Calvinism will dictate how he thinks about forgiveness (it will lead him to interpret the bible in ways that are self-evidently wrong - as I am about to show) - he believes in a God who embraces only the elect - and when they are unrepentant. The non-Calvinist believes that God forgives any person who turns to him in faith - saving faith also being repentance - and repentance being necessary to be forgiven.
Before we go any further let me point out that there is no such thing as offering people OUR forgiveness. When people wrong us they wrong us because they wrong God. We don't have our own authoritative standards of right and wrong which people violate - to be authoritative any moral standard would need to be ‘outside creation’. Therefore who are we to forgive anyone? And who are we to offer God's forgiveness to people on any terms other than the terms under which he offers his forgiveness?
Whether Tim believes that Mark 11:25 is about offering people OUR forgiveness or GOD'S forgiveness isn’t made clear in the video. He either imagines that there is such a thing as OUR forgiveness - that we must offer people our forgiveness whether or not the person repents - or that we must offer people God’s forgiveness whether or not they repent. It helps Tim not to make himself clear on that question because if the only forgiveness we can offer people is God's forgiveness it becomes clear that the Calvinist is interpreting Mark 11:25 to be about offering God's forgiveness to both the elect and the non-elect. Either that or Tim believes God predestines all events to make sure we never offer his forgiveness to anyone he hasn’t chosen before creation to save. But either interpretation is inconsistent with the rest of scripture (which says that repentance must precede forgiveness. For example see Acts 3:19
ESV
Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out,
This leaves Tim with no way to make sense of Luke 17:3. He says it is about doing justice - but he cannot explain either why doing justice is necessary if God has already forgiven someone - or why forgiveness in Luke 17:3 is being offered AFTER the offender repents - if the person has already been forgiven why wait to inform them until after they repent?
These interpretations of the two verses amount to Tim attempting to argue that justice follows mercy - which contradicts all biblical teaching about the cross - mercy has no definition without the existence of justice. I have already mentioned Acts 3:19 as proof of that.
So what is Mark 11:25 about? It reveals that there is a vertical and a horizontal part to our forgiving on behalf of God. The first half is about sharing God's forgiving heart (and actually forgiving anyone who we haven't forgiven who are repentant) and the second is to then operate on God's behalf consistent with the terms under which he offers forgiveness. It certainly isn’t about our assuring people who are unrepentant either that they have God’s forgiveness - or our forgiveness.
Tim isn’t wrong to believe in the importance of having the right attitude before approaching a person who has wronged us. But Calvinism is no help in determining what that attitude should be. Is it the justice of God towards the elect - which seeks to create a path to mercy - or is it God's justice towards the non-elect - which is without mercy? Here is why it is ALWAYS restorative - and towards all people (meaning that it seeks IF POSSIBLE to restore) - never retributive (even when God’s justice is vengeance - see Nahum 1). Hebrews 13:8 says that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. It is impossible to interpret that verse to mean that God is unchanging in mercy towards the elect and unchanging in his lack of mercy to the non-elect. Since it is not possible we must conclude that God is unchanging in mercy to all people.
Tim instead believes we should make ourselves ready to approach the offender along Calvinist lines - he appears to believe that the only way to make ourselves ready is to forgive the unrepentant person. He doesn't consider the option of aligning our heart with God's - which has the added bonus of being biblical (in not contravening Luke 17:3).
This book of Tim’s will end up doing a great deal of damage - just as TGC’s Calvinism damages the gospel by suggesting that salvation begins by God embracing - regenerating - the unrepentant person. Tim no doubt imagines that there can be no harm in encouraging people to be more forgiving - and therefore thinks the book can only be a win. But that’s absolutely not the case. The authority to forgive people on behalf of God is a huge responsibility granted to God’s people. Premature forgiveness - or forgiveness that isn’t offered but should be offered - each has potentially devastating effects. Many have the same wrong attitude towards judging people - they imagine that NOT making negative judgements of people is all that is required to be faithful - when the sin of judging is also about making wrong or premature positive assessments. See John 7:24 for proof of that. For example consider the harm in a board of elders appointing a man who is a legendary preacher but has question marks over his relationships with women to the position of senior pastor. That is a sinful positive judgement. Offering people God’s forgiveness when he isn’t offering it is a calamity - the judgement for which will fall on bible teachers who dared to use God’s authority in a way designed to serve their own interests. In Tim’s case the irresponsibility doesn’t lie solely in his obviously incorrect theology of forgiveness - it also lies in his hidden unreasoned commitment to Calvinism that led to it (TGC refuses to openly argue its case for Calvinist doctrines in the form of articles for each doctrine which anyone can read and scrutinise - if they truly believe in the Calvinist building blocks of salvation they have a strange way of expressing that - their lack of openness on fundamental issues - the building blocks of salvation - is proof of their lack of integrity. The few articles they have produced are embarrassingly lacking - for example no article of theirs addresses the verses I have quoted below - hint - because they destroy Calvinism). Tim holds to Calvinism (as do TGC) while refusing to explain verses from scripture which in the plainest terms say that Jesus died for all people and that God will accept any repentant person. Can anyone at TGC explain to me - if they have personally experienced God’s mercy - how they can justify their failure to even address passages like those below when a heart changed by mercy should be EAGER to find evidence in scripture of God’s willingness to forgive all people?
Romans 5:18 ESV
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
1 John 2:2 ESV
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
Acts 10:34-35 ESV
So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him".
TGC cannot have the fellowship of the world church while it remains committed to ignoring all Spirit to spirit testimony from God (since how can it be trusted if it is always capable of being ignored on the basis that God may not be the same God to someone else?) in favour of the fallen conclusions of their minds - while it maligns God fundamentally in saying that he is mostly without mercy (by numbers of people). There is no way to consider this secondary doctrinal error - and no way to interpret TGC’s refusal to change direction despite every effort to convince them to do so as anything other than final.
I understand your point but us Reformed Christians are part of the "World Church" that consists of those who perscribe to the Nicene Creed instead of the modern "evangelical Church".
While not all the same: Lutherans, Anglicans, and other traditional Protestants do believe in total depravity and election at the very least. Large parts of the Roman and Eastern Churches as well to an extent.
We don't seek to be part of this modern movement that consists of noncredal Pentecostals, Baptists, and Pietists (ev free etc).
All you did was basically say you think the Calvinist view is wrong without showing what you think the right view is.
@@HearGodsWordHello.
I didn't SAY the Calvinist view was wrong - I outlined reasoning which PROVED that Calvinist understanding of forgiveness is wrong (or at least Tim's views if they are not to be considered Calvinist views). You are welcome to engage with that reasoning. (Although as you will see below - he never did).
If there be any doubt as to what I believe (I believe that as I explained what wasn't right I explained what is) below is a summary of principles for how Christians should forgive:
- the only forgiveness that can be offered to people is God's forgiveness - not ours.
- Since Luke 17:3 exists - since it does not suggest that people should be forgiven before they repent - since it only mentions forgiving people after they repent - we must not forgive people before they repent.
- Mark 11:25 must therefore be interpreted in a way that does not contradict Luke 17:3. It is about sharing God's HEART to forgive (which may involve forgiving specific people we haven't forgiven who are repentant - it isn't about forgiving anyone before they repent).
- Forgiveness is therefore not a separate subject from preaching the gospel - which is about God's forgiveness and is conditional upon people's repentance (Acts 3:19).
And finally I will summarise the principles I just listed in a single sentence - we should offer people GOD's forgiveness - with HIS heart - and on HIS terms. (It isn't a point I made above but of course this is how things should be if believers are in dwelled by God - we don't offer people our love - we emanate his love to others).
@@philipbenjamin4720 which is why I asked who's got the right view, and you still didn't say.
@@HearGodsWord If I understand you correctly you are saying that I have not revealed whether the principles of forgiveness I have listed are compatible with both Calvinism and non-Calvinism - or only non-Calvinism. I can see that this is the case thank you - this leaves me with more to clarify. (I have however already revealed whose ideas about forgiveness I believe to be correct!)
Here is why they are only compatible with non-Calvinism. And here is why Tim's views MUST be different to mine in order to attempt to preserve Calvinism (although as I explained - unsuccessfully).
Calvinist conversion happens in the following order (not a time order but a logical order):
-Regeneration (the spiritually insensitive person is made spiritually sensitive)
-Sufficient sanctification must happen to make a person inclined towards sin in every inclination have faith - that faith being repentance.
-Justification/Forgiveness follows that repentance
-The union with God which is forgiveness is sanctification.
The problem with Calvinist conversion is there are two 'sanctifications' - the first one which causes the unrepentant person to be repentant - and then the last one which is union with God. The problem lies with the first one. Because God is the source of all goodness sanctification is only ever the result of union with him. The Calvinist however is suggesting that God can sanctify a person sufficiently for them to repent without being united with them. Not so - how? (Non-Calvinism does not have this problem - the non-believer's not being entirely without goodness - nor spiritually insensitive - combined with enabling and enlightening (but not irresistible) grace - sees them able to make a FREE CHOICE to turn to God).
And so Tim must in his model of forgiveness include some element in which some kind of "mercy" (which I have just shown isn't union with God) is offered to the unrepentant person which causes them to repent.
So - in conclusion - only non-Calvinism is compatible with the principles of forgiveness I have sought to prove.