585 BC: When An Eclipse Stopped a War...or did it?
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- Опубликовано: 4 июн 2024
- The historian Herodotus tells us that in 585 BC, during a battle between the Medians and Lydians, the "day turned to night" and that in response, the two sides made peace. Much has been made of this event, with many labeling it an eclipse, usually known as "The Eclipse of Thales". But, did the so-called "Battle of the Eclipse" actually happen, and if it did, did it actually end a war between the Medians and Lydians?
SOURCES:
The Histories, Herodotus
On the Eclipse of Thales, Cycles and Probabilities, Querejeta
I mean there was an eclipse that year and it was during Campaign season so I chalk this up to being another(common) Herodotus W.
Herodotus is constantly scoring dubs over modern nerd academics 😂
@@wednesdaynightbusiness6296 I wouldnt go that far, he makes a complete hash of Egyptian history for example and he does get less accurate the farther away from Greece and the Mediterranean you get but in general I believe he's more accurate, and often in surprising ways, than modern historians give him credit for
Not in that area.
@@zaco-km3su Yes the eclipse track reaches well into Anatolia
He's a well known liar. "Father of lies"....I don't trust ANYTHING from him.
Livy 44.37 has a great account of a lunar eclipse before the battle of Pydna. A centurion calmly explains to the Roman legions that it was predicted and expected; when it occurred Livy uses the usual language about howling in chaos in the Macedonian camp. The next day the Romans smash the Macedonian line and defeat Perseus.
Related to this is the question of whether the war between the Lydians and the Medes even happened on the Halys.
The size of the Median kingdom has been recently reconsidered and it now appears that it was smaller than what the Classical sources suggested.
At the same time, the notion that the Halys was the boundary between the Lydian and Median empires is also now in doubt so that it's possible that Lydia might have extended further to the east until the former western boundary of Urartu in the region of the Euphrates.
Another cool topic. Love how this channel always covers little topics that reveal a lot about ancient worldviews and historiographical practice
Seems a little strange to me that historians have agreed that this story isn't real.... because we have a reference to it? Sure, just because Herodotus said it happened doesn't automatically mean it did. But it's surely just as foolish to say that because only Herodotus said it, it didn't happen?
Seems like a lot of academics have developed quite a bit of Herodotus hate. Every time I hear discussion of some part of Herodotus' accounts there's a lot of jumping to 'he made it up' 'he's a fraud' instead of a hard analyst of the possibilities. It's almost as if to these historians if Herodotus said it then it must be false.
@@CatholicDragoon Academics prefer multiple sources to corroborate evidence. With this event there is no other source for the date of a battle, the location of a battle, the events occurring in said battle, or the prophecy Herodotus refers to. It's very important to remember that ancient historians did not write with the idea they were accurately recording the events they described. Instead they framed what they had learned as a reflection of the society of their time. Finally we _know_ that Herodotus could be rather imaginative when recounting past events. It is only right that modern scholars treat Herodotus with considerable scepticism.
@@TheSilentPrince-mt5mx Skepticism (a good thing) is substantially different from outright rejection, which is what seems to be being described in this piece.
@@peterzavon3012 I didn't get that impression. What I got was 'There is no other evidence for this happening, and Herodotus is not a reliable source, therefore we should treat this with extreme scepticism'. From my own perspective he was writing 160+ years after the event using oral sources that could easily have been embellished after the event. So even if Herodotus transcribed what he heard faithfully it should still be treated with extreme scepticism.
Incidentally I butted heads with a few people regarding a battle that was supposed to have happened in a sleepy English village in 1643. The local model shop has some wonderfully painted figures illustrating the great battle but there is only one source that matches. With no other evidence, few finds that support the claim of a large-scale engagement, and alternative sources that offer a very different picture, it's indicative of the perils of taking a single source at face value. Especially one that has shown itself prone to exaggerate and even fabricate facts on other occasions. As with the _Perfect Diurnal_ so with Herodotus. 😎
Because he's a known liar. He has the moniker of "father of lies" for a reason. He's ancient CNN.....lol.
Another interesting one is the lunar eclipse of 331 just before the battle of Gaugamela 😉 it feels a bit special to myself as I research Alexander quite extensively and that lunar eclipse was on my birthday and the battle on my son’s birthday 😅
I don't understand. Why don't we just calculate back to see if there was an eclipse and where it would be most visible?
Yea bro jus do that
@@jbb4105well I'm not saying I can but that's like a pretty simple thing to do in physics.
My understanding is that it was. It went over western Anatolia.
It's been done, and the answer is that in the area where it would have been visible that there might have been a battle, it would have been very unimpressive happening right before sunset. Further west, on the Greek islands, it would have been more noticeable, so it's entirely possible that Herodotus just mashed the two stories together to end up with this.
We have. There was one in 584, which is not 585, when the battle allegedly took place. There *may* have been one in 585 but as far as I am aware no one thinks it would have been visible in Anatolia
This is all wrong. Where is Griffith and Guts?
I will always be rooting for the Lydians. Too bad Solon had other ideas...
Could there have been a volcanic eruption the effect of which blackened the sky?
or something as simple as a very dense storm cloud could also obscure the sky significantly.
is this the same as the 2 greek cities that stopped the war/battle over the eclipse? i saw aa theory that it was on another year this eclipse happened.
if herodotus said it, be wary.
I just saw that
It did happen, I was there
Eclipse wasn't so useless after all...
well it was used to validate general relativity.
@@Kneecap22
oh... I see...
Why Herodotus always laying ???
idk..
MMMM OH MY GOD
His recipe for how to make a mummy was pretty much accurate...
Apparently he slept every night.
Typical westerner as far as I'm concerned. I can't believe how dishonest people have become in the west.
People forget we were one nation bread to be warriors. ATLANTIS fell. All men became a people with out kings.
So Atlantis fell because of bread but its all ok because we dont have kings?