Really should use ESD precautions when handling decoders. (Even mentioned in the Hornby manual). It's interesting that Hornby can make TT120 locos that will take the next18, and it will fit in an N gauge loco. The fact a tiny adjustment made it fit in the Victory says a lot about the effort put in by manufacturers to accommodate decoders, though I suppose they manufacture to accommodate decoders that meet NMRA standards for size, which these don't, in spite of what Hornby claim. A very fair review, and I like the positivity. So many reviewers now focus on the negatives and take an overall pessimistic view. Optimism is way more encouraging for the future of the hobby!
Fair review as per usual Jenny. The latest Hornby “Beyond the Buffers” does do a reasonable job in trying to explain the situation they are in with components
Thanks for this video, was quite some work to fiddle with the decoders in the different locos I think. One think we need to keep in mind: It is not the loco manufacturers fault that the decoder doesn't fit into several locomotives, as all these manufacturers worked according to the standards. The one which is not following the standard is the Hornby decoder... And speaking about ABC - well the better decoders have this feature since the end of the last century (Lenz (inventor), Zimo, ESU, just to name a few)
Problem is and a small correction. Hornby are still implicitly marketing this as a range of decoders that fits other models, its even wordd as such on the range page. Its also interesting to see that the 6 pin has now been delayed until Autumn because the available build with current components wouldnt even fit most of Hornbys 6 pin models.
Awesome video. I just love it when you find a Rapido Class 28 on special plus a decoder 3 minutes after watching this. Can't wait to fit them together and have a go. Thanks Jennifer
Another point I can see is the sockets for the speaker and stay alive are at an edge facing out. This makes the unit even wider, where as if the pugs were central on the board and faced inward so the pugs sat over the other components it would help reduce the footprint. Also if the blue tooth antena was either separate or the layout of the board improved to make it smaller ( I can clearly see where it could be improved massively) that would make it better too. But as you say it was designed to fit one particular application, and as such a totally missed opportunity by Hornby. Again hornby like with the TT:120 stuff they have launched that have and lots of little issues, it's a good idea ALMOST well done. Hopefully someone else will pick up this idea and improve it for more general use.
Excellent video! The most useful feedback with these is seeing if they'll fit or not and we've only gotten info slowly trickling in. Great to see you give us a large variety of fitments from a technician's viewpoint! Have you considered doing an 8-pin or 21-pin test? I would certainly watch that.
The 8 pin one has a wiring harness so as long as you aren't forced to cram it in crazy places it will fit. The 21 pin one could be a challenge as the amount of possible options makes the area around the decoder very crowded with electronic components
The thing is that the NEXT18 format has a formal size associated with it. Therefore all the locos should be designed for this. The additional complication with the Hornby system is the stay alive and speaker connectors further reduce the space available. Obviously those form a key advantage of the system and therefore I would hope the next gen are actually smaller than the standard.
Well Hornby is trying to fit full size HO/OO level components (1.5A max current) on a form factor which is only used for N scale (and the odd mini motor shunter),with the spacing of a HO decoder and some electrical plugs with required clearances. So trying to fit that on the pcb even without the required antenna size is a challenge
I just got one for my Hornby Dublo Scotsman for my first try in DCC models and I'm blown away. Its amazing. It has an 8-pin socket, but its very good. I was actually wondering if I could get one of these decoders for upcoming locomotives, like my Railroad 9F or the Tornado. Now, I have one question where I haven't found an answer yet. How does this decoder work with locomotives which are DCC ready and have a pre-installed speaker? Will a normal decoder do or do I need another sound one? PS: So good that it fits into Victory I intend to get one in the next few months and a power bank as well? Definately the least expected for me considering its a tank engine but good stuff. Very good to know
You are ever the optimist Jenny. So without any modification only one loco other than the TT locos they were design for and that was N! If you have more diesels maybe more success
Yes, that was very informative! Could these HM7000 decoders be made to fit in some locos using a Next18 fly lead and hard wiring it? I'm looking forward to smaller Bluetooth decoders but wonder if any other DCC manufacturers have plans to make rival products?
I think you might be able to fit the Next 18 decoder elsewhere, such as in the tender on some locos, rather than directly by using 2x "ESU 51993 Wire Harness 18-pin Next18 socket to bare wire" or similar! Thanks for uploading.
Hi Jenny, is there any other pcb tracks in the bluetooth aerial area of the board? Coud the aerial be removed from the pcb and replaced by a flexilble wire of the correct length, or is the physical routing of the aerial track critical?
When you alter the shape of the antenna you alter a number of it's properties of both the signal received and the ability to transmit which can then knock onto the rest of the design of your circuity. You'd wind up with a little bit more work than just attaching a wire. Attaching a wire works great for larger applications but when you are dealing with antenna that are sub wavelength things get a bit more funky and some other components on the board would need changed to compensate for this. Interested me is seeing in their documentation just how much a diecast body tanks the signal. Wonder if this and achieving a good operational range played into the outcome of the specifications they landed on.
Good on you! The more info we have, the better. I have got a couple of the 8-pin ones and they do seem bigger than many others but you'd probably expect that as the Bluetooth antenna takes up space. From the first 4 locos I tried to fit them in, they fit into 2. (Not Hornby btw) A great low-cost sound option where they will fit. (I'm not really planning on using the Bluetooth much) A smaller option for revision2 would be awesome. edit: I wonder if the antenna could be separated and wired to allow more flexible installation.
Great video, I agree with you that Hornby are not obliged to make these decoders fit into other brands locos, but when they state on the packaging NMRA Next18, one assumes the Hornby chip conforms to these NMRA standards and thus would fit in other Next18 locomotives, we know that the chip is larger than the standard which is very misleading. I also think it is not a realistic solution for buyers to need to remove pieces of the chip and/or locomotive to make it fit. You mentioned that Hornby have some limitations on the size of components that can be sourced and they plan to reduce the size in the future, assuming this information is from Hornby, this suggests to me that they have rushed this product out when it is not ready, another example of this again product marketed as supporting Android devices, but this is also not yet available. This product has potential to be great, but I think Hornby have made lots of mistakes with this and probably should have waited to further refine it before launching or they should have been a lot clearer about the current limitations.
Not sure why you say the Hornby N18TXS was designed specifically for TT:120, as Hornby's own product information does NOT state this. On the contrary it says "Part of the innovative new HM7000 range, this Next18-pin Bluetooth® and DCC sound decoder is ready to plug into locomotives featuring a Next18 (NEM662) socket. You'll find the Next18 socket in more modern Hornby locos and many other locomotives in OO, HO and some smaller scale locomotives.", which any reasonable person would take to mean it would at least fit HO/OO scales and other manufacturers. Hornby are definitely pushing it to market on this premise. It's clear from your (and others) excellent testing that the model scale is not the issue, it's that the decoder is simply too big for many models and there's a certain amount of "buyer beware" required. Roll on HM7000 V2....
Great video. I have tested the 8 pin 7000 in a couple on my locos. They worked great using the Hornby Elite and Select but when I tried it on my loft layout which is a Digitrax system the loco just juddered when I turned on track power. I spent days trying to get to the root of the problem without any real success. Regards. Bryn.
@@toots.007 I found that sometimes when changing the address on hm7000 it doesn’t always take so I still program the decoders on my program track and turn off analogue in the quick cv menu but they have all run fine on blutooth I installed another one yesterday in my 91 with the class 73 profile and it runs really smooth but most of the time I set them up and alter things on the app then switch them to Dcc and just use my throttle this may change once the legacy dongle comes out and if it works with digitrax sorry I can’t be more helpful,I am in the process of fitting power banks to each decoder and as for power it comes out of the base station into Dcc concepts amp meter into Dcc concepts ip circuit breaker then to the track all my points and signals are run from a separate bus.
These decoders fit my TT:120 models perfectly and not just the Hornby ones. I think the person who claimed there was an NMRA decoder size standard therefore the Hornby Next18 decoder is not NMRA compliant, had deleted their post, which in light of the fact I can’t find a standard that covers the decoder dimensions, only interface and wiring/operation; would seem a sensible move. Should people really be asking why manufacturers failed to future proof models for developing technologies such as Bluetooth decoders etc? Great feature JK and clearly you uphold the best in the hobby, straight talking and from the heart
@@modelrailwaynoob the only dimension specifications for NEM 662 Next 18 decoders refer to non sound and sound versions, no Bluetooth enabled decoders are listed. I guess the technology is ahead of MOROP on this one. It’s incredible how they have got the extra tech in and so close to a N18 sound only decoder. From what Hornby developer said this week, they were only limited by component availability and expect an even smaller Gen 2 family of Bluetooth decoders!
@@HighFell Since when did Hornby make up the specification for Next 18? Their decoder is outside the specification, which is why it doesn't fit. It wouldn't be a problem if they were honest and open about it on their sales page and indeed on the box the decoder comes inside.
Great video Jenny. The N gauge modern loco has a very different shape from the steam shapes of all the others. It is a pity Hornby did not just put “TT120 only” on the packaging of the Next 18 decoder so that no one was mislead. Saying it was to standard was either sloppy (because it was not the size in the standard) or too clever by half if one has to read the words in the statement about operation as meaning “it is to standard in some bits but not others and you will have to check the whole standard agains our extensive instruction book to see what bits we Hornby have decided not to meet.” I hope they fix the size issue soon as the idea is excellent in concept and someone else will fill the gap for them if they are not going to be able to service the models of Dapol, Heljan and Bachmann. If the correct size becomes available, folk will use that for Planet too rather than hack their models and have to paint the decoder to use Hornby. Further, if folk have to use another supplier for part of their loco fleet, they will probably use that other for the rest to avoid operational confusion.
Something either conforms to a standard or it doesn't. This doesn't. A crying shame, as this system *does* have promise, if it only fitted in other makers' models (as the bloody standards are for), it would really be a step forward that I would actually be quite quite interested in. As it is, it's a frustrating and rather perplexing failure. Fiddling about and trimming is not good enough, look at the elegant design of Dapol smoke box door or the Accurascale magnetic lid. I am truly racking my brains, as a UI/UX designer of over 25 years experience, to understand how in a million years this size of board ever got signed off for production and sale... Extraordinary.
There ya go!!!! It fits an N gauge Loco by Rapido!!!!! I think all the other model manufacturers which it doesn’t fit must have got their sums wrong!! LOL. Seriously,,Hornby have never appealed to all the pedants out there so nothing is new there. They have worked on this through some tough times and the world shortage of components has meant that for the time being, the Next 18 is fractionally larger than ideal. Solution, buy something that fits and be happy. It’s not the end of the world,,,,,yet!! Incidentally, I’ve had no problems with the 8 and 21 pin versions in both Hornby, Bachmann and Dapol locos. Time for a nice cuppa and a deep breath!!! Well done Jen!!
if they could narrow it by putting components closer together and maybe make the bluetooth antenna smaller or as a daughter board or even as a wire antenna
The signal you wish to send and recieve coupled with the desired data transfer rates and power availability considerations all play into the physical form of the antenna, along with cost and of course availability if you go with an off the shelf antenna rather than this PCB antenna solution. There's a fantastic website called antenna theory that covers the basics underlying how these things work and all the different solutions people have come up with. Well worth a look. Probably the best of these is the put the antenna on a separate board solution but this still requires space and then comes with additional points of failure due to the added connections etc
Great and brave thing for Hornby to produce this next step in DCC decoding. Their function seems great, a good thing they can operate next side any other traditional decoder system. But they failed big in not respecting the NMRA specifications, that not only sets a standard for any decoding manufacturer on function standardization, but also on hardware sizes. What's even worse is that the packaging of the new Hornby decoder specifically says it's NMRA standard, and that makes me a little bit angry, Hornby should stick to the rules if they want to sell under that flag, no matter how revolutionary their product is, otherwise there is no point in having NMRA standards. And I'm convinced that most DCC users embrace the thing of having a standardization as NMRA and no matter what brand you are you should stick to it, It's already worse enough that there are so many variations in sockets so please don't start to fiddle with oversizing…
What bothers me is hornby has marked this as being next18, but next18 is a standard that includes dimensions. Next18-s is at most 25mm x 9.5mm x 4.1mm. If I am correct that the hornby decoder is larger, it is not a next18-s device. (28.5mm x 14mm x 5mm from their page right now). They do provide the dimensions at least, but that doesn't help anyone with a compliant model. This is a best practiced failure on the part of hornby. This is really, really bad. Conform to standard first, then release.
Can I refer you to the latest Hornby Podcast Beyond the Buffers, where it’s explained why the Bluetooth decoders are this size for now! Also seems they are made the fit the TT120 range, rather than all manufacturers old models.
Next18 refers to the socket, the interface between hardware. Which this confirms to, and the standards of communication, which this conforms to. They conform to the standard, says on the box they conform to it as these are then operational factors of a next18 decoder. Never says comply to the standard. A voluntary standard need not be complied with by anyone and to be fair most other makes deviate from it in some way or other, that's why so few are sold with compliance markings. If it don't fit, buy another smaller make, the fact it conforms to the standards of communication means you should be able to use this in locos it does fit and anything else in locos it doesn't fit. Which is absolutely fine and dandy for most users who are probably not super heavily invested into a full hornby DCC system or prepared to do so anyway having invested into other none bluetooth control systems long before this existed. Storm in a teacup to generate views is what this is. Pure tabloidism run rampant on a hobby that doesn't need journalism of that ilk and doesn't benefit at all from it.
@highperformancecreambasedsoup I don't think hornby declares their product to be next18-s, so fair enough. If the model manufacturer says "fits next18-s" then the consumer has allmthe information they need and can choose easily. However, I think the conversation is worth having, not to point at hornby and say "you are wrong" but more to try to find some way to make it easy for modelers to determine what will fit without guessing. Maybe that already exists? The fact that reviewers are not aware of such information suggests not.
@@a.squirrel1511 it's called a publically available PDF that you download prior to buying, read, take note of the measurements, then read the NRMA documentation, then measure some locos or order one and go through what you have to see if it works. Or someone does that anyway, then you know, then you go "huh, fair enough" and continue on your way in life because really is there any changing this? Is 99.999% of time put into this worth it? No one is going to suddenly start complying, the issues in manufacturing things aren't going to be undone and resolved back to 4 years ago, time goes one way. No rewinds no replays no edits. Let's just get on with enjoying our trains sans the drama.
An extremely useful video, thank you, which adds to debunking Hornby’s hype. Curious, then, they sent you a decoder which you’ve shown only rarely does what they implied it would. My overall conclusion from following this story since January is that, for the time being, HM7000 is nothing more than a DCC upgrade novelty for Hornby’s own product range. Rather like TT:120 in fact.
To be fair there was no hype, it was always put forward as a hornby system aimed at going in hornby stuff. Especially the sound option very clearly comes with sound files only covering stuff hornby makes with no clear path to use any other sound files available. Pretty sure(will go back and watch it all again and pull up all the info I can just for you) that no one from hornby ever said it would fit any other product. The hype seems to have come from our inference that we can just fit this in anything and that it's intended for everything not from them implying that it's a hornby product for hornby people to use in their hornby system which is what it is.
@@modelrailfan37 they never did anything of the sort, they said it the sockets and underlying software used match up. They said it conforms to crrtain parts of that standard. That's all they did. Not that it complies, not that it compares. Bit unfair we are pretending they advertised or advised or otherwise said it would fit anything but their own range. They did not. To claim otherwisr or that they did or that they did not have full documentation including dimensions available and free to potential customers prior to anyone making a purchase is dishonest. On this occasion hornby actually delivered the product, exactly as specified and advertised. That people didn't take a moment to read freely available information or consider what they were buying as one should before buying any equipment from disparate sources, that's not hornby's fault. Don't work for em, don't even have much interest in most of their product range. Can however tell you anyone painting this in any orher light is taking you and the hobby for a ride.
@@Trainskitsetc I mean, not everyone is as into the hobby as we are to be completely fair. There are many people that do model railroading as a side hobby, or don’t take it super seriously. To me, this is fine, as with how few people are coming into the hobby these days, we need all the people we can get. Having extremely affordable, high quality DCC Sound decoders is great, and something this hobby has needed for a long time, but considering the low cost, this product will not only appeal to experienced members of the hobby, but also to beginners and people that only do model railroading as a side hobby. If this is the case, many people, (beginners especially) might not look at documentation for a DCC Decoder before they buy it, as every DCC decoder on the market will fit into the right slot no problem, so long as the locomotive is built to properly fit a decoder. This makes this a bit of a problem, as while I look at reviews always before buying a product, (as in the past I’ve learned there are some ripoffs in this hobby at my own experience) not everyone has the time to do this, especially if they have other hobbies besides model railroading.
@@modelrailfan37 I'd argue most beginners wouldn't even contemplate buying the parts separately and the much more likely consumer behaviour would be to simply buy the whole unit ready to go with sound decoder fitted, I'd further take a gander at what sounds are available and surmise that unless you want the wrong sound for the wrong loco you are even as a very rare beginner willing to and having the confidence to DCC fit your own stuff going to be put off by the fact modt of the sounds available don't match stuff other than cases where hornby has a competitor for that loco. The much more likely reason these are available as a stand alone product at all is so that people who have primarily the hornby TT:120 sets can upgrade and fit the sound system their early sets didn't come with which is fine because they fit just fine. The next most likely thing we can work out is that the follow on market is people with hotnby OO items catered for in the sound library, which seems fine they seem to fit. Neither of these customer groups is annoyed. The only people who seem triggered are those with existing collections, who are by no means unskilled, who are generally disgruntled with the direction of hornby to begin with, those who definately do know better. With new entrants to the hobby apparently so thin on the ground do explain how a bunch of seasoned collectors annoyed with a company making a concerted effort to belittle everything that company does as overpriced, faulty, bad and late encourage any entrant to the hobby? If everything is rubbish and expensive and all the manufacturers are greedy and out to rip us off that's only going to encourage people to look for other hobbies. Or enthral people in the drama around these people taking on the imagined evil. Storm meets teacup atop molehill claiming to be mountain. End result, less modellers because if this is what they see trust me, they're gonna keep walking to another less messed up hobby. Sadly, this is what they will see first when engaging with our hobby via youtube. Not exactly a positive image we project of the hobby, a positive image of a few bigger youtubers maybe, but certainly not a positive image of the hobby.
@@macnavi that's what I thought, who would think produce a product with an 18 pin connector and speaker, no sound files anywhere and your own chip won't fit
This product is not a great one from Hornby if you ask me. If Hornby say a product is NMRA compatible, it should work in any product that has enough room for the decoder. Even if this is an issue that was unavoidable, Hornby should have specified that, and not sold it as NMRA, and they should have said that it does not work with all locos on the box. Also, it’s not DCC Ready really if you have to cut parts off the model or decoder to make it fit, but that’s just my opinion.
Really should use ESD precautions when handling decoders. (Even mentioned in the Hornby manual).
It's interesting that Hornby can make TT120 locos that will take the next18, and it will fit in an N gauge loco. The fact a tiny adjustment made it fit in the Victory says a lot about the effort put in by manufacturers to accommodate decoders, though I suppose they manufacture to accommodate decoders that meet NMRA standards for size, which these don't, in spite of what Hornby claim.
A very fair review, and I like the positivity. So many reviewers now focus on the negatives and take an overall pessimistic view. Optimism is way more encouraging for the future of the hobby!
Fair review as per usual Jenny.
The latest Hornby “Beyond the Buffers” does do a reasonable job in trying to explain the situation they are in with components
Thanks Jenny, for an excellent video that will help a lot of modelers.😊
Thanks for this video, was quite some work to fiddle with the decoders in the different locos I think. One think we need to keep in mind: It is not the loco manufacturers fault that the decoder doesn't fit into several locomotives, as all these manufacturers worked according to the standards. The one which is not following the standard is the Hornby decoder... And speaking about ABC - well the better decoders have this feature since the end of the last century (Lenz (inventor), Zimo, ESU, just to name a few)
Thanks for the vid Jenny. I'll not be taking a dremel to any models. I'm going to stick with the decoders I've already got.
Problem is and a small correction. Hornby are still implicitly marketing this as a range of decoders that fits other models, its even wordd as such on the range page.
Its also interesting to see that the 6 pin has now been delayed until Autumn because the available build with current components wouldnt even fit most of Hornbys 6 pin models.
Awesome video. I just love it when you find a Rapido Class 28 on special plus a decoder 3 minutes after watching this.
Can't wait to fit them together and have a go. Thanks Jennifer
Another point I can see is the sockets for the speaker and stay alive are at an edge facing out. This makes the unit even wider, where as if the pugs were central on the board and faced inward so the pugs sat over the other components it would help reduce the footprint. Also if the blue tooth antena was either separate or the layout of the board improved to make it smaller ( I can clearly see where it could be improved massively) that would make it better too.
But as you say it was designed to fit one particular application, and as such a totally missed opportunity by Hornby. Again hornby like with the TT:120 stuff they have launched that have and lots of little issues, it's a good idea ALMOST well done.
Hopefully someone else will pick up this idea and improve it for more general use.
Great video Jenny. Can I refer everyone to the latest Hornby Podcast, Beyond the Buffers as to why the decoder is the size it is at the moment.
Enjoy!
The box.and sales page are still wrong
Excellent video! The most useful feedback with these is seeing if they'll fit or not and we've only gotten info slowly trickling in. Great to see you give us a large variety of fitments from a technician's viewpoint! Have you considered doing an 8-pin or 21-pin test? I would certainly watch that.
The 8 pin one has a wiring harness so as long as you aren't forced to cram it in crazy places it will fit.
The 21 pin one could be a challenge as the amount of possible options makes the area around the decoder very crowded with electronic components
The thing is that the NEXT18 format has a formal size associated with it. Therefore all the locos should be designed for this. The additional complication with the Hornby system is the stay alive and speaker connectors further reduce the space available. Obviously those form a key advantage of the system and therefore I would hope the next gen are actually smaller than the standard.
The locos are. Hornby's decoder isn't.
Sorry that was what I meant.
Well Hornby is trying to fit full size HO/OO level components (1.5A max current) on a form factor which is only used for N scale (and the odd mini motor shunter),with the spacing of a HO decoder and some electrical plugs with required clearances. So trying to fit that on the pcb even without the required antenna size is a challenge
I just got one for my Hornby Dublo Scotsman for my first try in DCC models and I'm blown away. Its amazing. It has an 8-pin socket, but its very good. I was actually wondering if I could get one of these decoders for upcoming locomotives, like my Railroad 9F or the Tornado. Now, I have one question where I haven't found an answer yet. How does this decoder work with locomotives which are DCC ready and have a pre-installed speaker? Will a normal decoder do or do I need another sound one?
PS: So good that it fits into Victory I intend to get one in the next few months and a power bank as well? Definately the least expected for me considering its a tank engine but good stuff. Very good to know
You are ever the optimist Jenny. So without any modification only one loco other than the TT locos they were design for and that was N! If you have more diesels maybe more success
I’m glad to see that it fits into the small locomotive took the decoder. Even better was the fitting in the Victory. I’m a 00 man!!
Yes, that was very informative! Could these HM7000 decoders be made to fit in some locos using a Next18 fly lead and hard wiring it? I'm looking forward to smaller Bluetooth decoders but wonder if any other DCC manufacturers have plans to make rival products?
I think you might be able to fit the Next 18 decoder elsewhere, such as in the tender on some locos, rather than directly by using 2x "ESU 51993 Wire Harness 18-pin Next18 socket to bare wire" or similar! Thanks for uploading.
Hi Jenny, is there any other pcb tracks in the bluetooth aerial area of the board? Coud the aerial be removed from the pcb and replaced by a flexilble wire of the correct length, or is the physical routing of the aerial track critical?
When you alter the shape of the antenna you alter a number of it's properties of both the signal received and the ability to transmit which can then knock onto the rest of the design of your circuity. You'd wind up with a little bit more work than just attaching a wire. Attaching a wire works great for larger applications but when you are dealing with antenna that are sub wavelength things get a bit more funky and some other components on the board would need changed to compensate for this.
Interested me is seeing in their documentation just how much a diecast body tanks the signal. Wonder if this and achieving a good operational range played into the outcome of the specifications they landed on.
Good on you! The more info we have, the better.
I have got a couple of the 8-pin ones and they do seem bigger than many others but you'd probably expect that as the Bluetooth antenna takes up space.
From the first 4 locos I tried to fit them in, they fit into 2. (Not Hornby btw)
A great low-cost sound option where they will fit. (I'm not really planning on using the Bluetooth much) A smaller option for revision2 would be awesome.
edit: I wonder if the antenna could be separated and wired to allow more flexible installation.
Great video, I agree with you that Hornby are not obliged to make these decoders fit into other brands locos, but when they state on the packaging NMRA Next18, one assumes the Hornby chip conforms to these NMRA standards and thus would fit in other Next18 locomotives, we know that the chip is larger than the standard which is very misleading. I also think it is not a realistic solution for buyers to need to remove pieces of the chip and/or locomotive to make it fit.
You mentioned that Hornby have some limitations on the size of components that can be sourced and they plan to reduce the size in the future, assuming this information is from Hornby, this suggests to me that they have rushed this product out when it is not ready, another example of this again product marketed as supporting Android devices, but this is also not yet available.
This product has potential to be great, but I think Hornby have made lots of mistakes with this and probably should have waited to further refine it before launching or they should have been a lot clearer about the current limitations.
On the A5 - can the board assembly be rotated 90 deg or does it foul the cab internal moulding?
Not sure why you say the Hornby N18TXS was designed specifically for TT:120, as Hornby's own product information does NOT state this. On the contrary it says "Part of the innovative new HM7000 range, this Next18-pin Bluetooth® and DCC sound decoder is ready to plug into locomotives featuring a Next18 (NEM662) socket. You'll find the Next18 socket in more modern Hornby locos and many other locomotives in OO, HO and some smaller scale locomotives.", which any reasonable person would take to mean it would at least fit HO/OO scales and other manufacturers. Hornby are definitely pushing it to market on this premise. It's clear from your (and others) excellent testing that the model scale is not the issue, it's that the decoder is simply too big for many models and there's a certain amount of "buyer beware" required. Roll on HM7000 V2....
Yes it is misleading as are Hornby
Great video. I have tested the 8 pin 7000 in a couple on my locos. They worked great using the Hornby Elite and Select but when I tried it on my loft layout which is a Digitrax system the loco just juddered when I turned on track power. I spent days trying to get to the root of the problem without any real success. Regards. Bryn.
I have 3 of the new decoders and also have digitrax dcs210+ with the dt602 throttle and they all run fine on my layout.
@@stephenbromley2302 that is exactly what I have but mine do not work. Did you need to set anything to get them to work?
@@toots.007 I found that sometimes when changing the address on hm7000 it doesn’t always take so I still program the decoders on my program track and turn off analogue in the quick cv menu but they have all run fine on blutooth I installed another one yesterday in my 91 with the class 73 profile and it runs really smooth but most of the time I set them up and alter things on the app then switch them to Dcc and just use my throttle this may change once the legacy dongle comes out and if it works with digitrax sorry I can’t be more helpful,I am in the process of fitting power banks to each decoder and as for power it comes out of the base station into Dcc concepts amp meter into Dcc concepts ip circuit breaker then to the track all my points and signals are run from a separate bus.
I added mine into an oxford rail dean goods, i had to cut bits of the inside to get the 8 pin to fit
These decoders fit my TT:120 models perfectly and not just the Hornby ones. I think the person who claimed there was an NMRA decoder size standard therefore the Hornby Next18 decoder is not NMRA compliant, had deleted their post, which in light of the fact I can’t find a standard that covers the decoder dimensions, only interface and wiring/operation; would seem a sensible move.
Should people really be asking why manufacturers failed to future proof models for developing technologies such as Bluetooth decoders etc?
Great feature JK and clearly you uphold the best in the hobby, straight talking and from the heart
There are sizes specified and others have covered this in detail
@@modelrailwaynoob Can somebody actually tell me where they are then in the NMRA standards because I have so far been unable to find these specifics
@@HighFell I haven't looked but I have seen others show them
@@modelrailwaynoob the only dimension specifications for NEM 662 Next 18 decoders refer to non sound and sound versions, no Bluetooth enabled decoders are listed. I guess the technology is ahead of MOROP on this one. It’s incredible how they have got the extra tech in and so close to a N18 sound only decoder. From what Hornby developer said this week, they were only limited by component availability and expect an even smaller Gen 2 family of Bluetooth decoders!
@@HighFell Since when did Hornby make up the specification for Next 18? Their decoder is outside the specification, which is why it doesn't fit. It wouldn't be a problem if they were honest and open about it on their sales page and indeed on the box the decoder comes inside.
Could you try a HM7000 in your Irish railway models A class and see what functions work
Brilliant locos Jenny
Seems to me that an antenna need not be on the printed circuit but could simply be plugged in. A bit of wire strung up the chimney or what have you.
Hi great video - what about hornby locos. Can u test as many as poss and can peeps post when they are successful
Great video Jenny. The N gauge modern loco has a very different shape from the steam shapes of all the others.
It is a pity Hornby did not just put “TT120 only” on the packaging of the Next 18 decoder so that no one was mislead.
Saying it was to standard was either sloppy (because it was not the size in the standard) or too clever by half if one has to read the words in the statement about operation as meaning “it is to standard in some bits but not others and you will have to check the whole standard agains our extensive instruction book to see what bits we Hornby have decided not to meet.”
I hope they fix the size issue soon as the idea is excellent in concept and someone else will fill the gap for them if they are not going to be able to service the models of Dapol, Heljan and Bachmann.
If the correct size becomes available, folk will use that for Planet too rather than hack their models and have to paint the decoder to use Hornby.
Further, if folk have to use another supplier for part of their loco fleet, they will probably use that other for the rest to avoid operational confusion.
That was dead interesting! thanks
Can you double head locos using the new HM7000? nothing said about this anymore..???
Something either conforms to a standard or it doesn't.
This doesn't. A crying shame, as this system *does* have promise, if it only fitted in other makers' models (as the bloody standards are for), it would really be a step forward that I would actually be quite quite interested in. As it is, it's a frustrating and rather perplexing failure. Fiddling about and trimming is not good enough, look at the elegant design of Dapol smoke box door or the Accurascale magnetic lid.
I am truly racking my brains, as a UI/UX designer of over 25 years experience, to understand how in a million years this size of board ever got signed off for production and sale...
Extraordinary.
There ya go!!!! It fits an N gauge Loco by Rapido!!!!! I think all the other model manufacturers which it doesn’t fit must have got their sums wrong!! LOL.
Seriously,,Hornby have never appealed to all the pedants out there so nothing is new there. They have worked on this through some tough times and the world shortage of components has meant that for the time being, the Next 18 is fractionally larger than ideal. Solution, buy something that fits and be happy. It’s not the end of the world,,,,,yet!! Incidentally, I’ve had no problems with the 8 and 21 pin versions in both Hornby, Bachmann and Dapol locos. Time for a nice cuppa and a deep breath!!! Well done Jen!!
It's called false advertising
@@modelrailwaynoob All advertising is False!!! Did you not know that!!!
@@LiveSteamNick No it isn't but I am only concerned with Hornby at the moment as I bought their decoders and was misled
tender drives will probably be ok
if they could narrow it by putting components closer together and maybe make the bluetooth antenna smaller or as a daughter board or even as a wire antenna
The signal you wish to send and recieve coupled with the desired data transfer rates and power availability considerations all play into the physical form of the antenna, along with cost and of course availability if you go with an off the shelf antenna rather than this PCB antenna solution.
There's a fantastic website called antenna theory that covers the basics underlying how these things work and all the different solutions people have come up with. Well worth a look. Probably the best of these is the put the antenna on a separate board solution but this still requires space and then comes with additional points of failure due to the added connections etc
Great and brave thing for Hornby to produce this next step in DCC decoding.
Their function seems great, a good thing they can operate next side any other traditional decoder system.
But they failed big in not respecting the NMRA specifications, that not only sets a standard for any decoding manufacturer on function standardization, but also on hardware sizes.
What's even worse is that the packaging of the new Hornby decoder specifically says it's NMRA standard, and that makes me a little bit angry, Hornby should stick to the rules if they want to sell under that flag, no matter how revolutionary their product is, otherwise there is no point in having NMRA standards.
And I'm convinced that most DCC users embrace the thing of having a standardization as NMRA and no matter what brand you are you should stick to it, It's already worse enough that there are so many variations in sockets so please don't start to fiddle with oversizing…
I Have A Bachmann Jubilee With HM 7000 Sound
Anybody got one to fit Rapidos 15xx?
What bothers me is hornby has marked this as being next18, but next18 is a standard that includes dimensions. Next18-s is at most 25mm x 9.5mm x 4.1mm. If I am correct that the hornby decoder is larger, it is not a next18-s device. (28.5mm x 14mm x 5mm from their page right now). They do provide the dimensions at least, but that doesn't help anyone with a compliant model. This is a best practiced failure on the part of hornby. This is really, really bad. Conform to standard first, then release.
Can I refer you to the latest Hornby Podcast Beyond the Buffers, where it’s explained why the Bluetooth decoders are this size for now!
Also seems they are made the fit the TT120 range, rather than all manufacturers old models.
Next18 refers to the socket, the interface between hardware. Which this confirms to, and the standards of communication, which this conforms to. They conform to the standard, says on the box they conform to it as these are then operational factors of a next18 decoder. Never says comply to the standard.
A voluntary standard need not be complied with by anyone and to be fair most other makes deviate from it in some way or other, that's why so few are sold with compliance markings.
If it don't fit, buy another smaller make, the fact it conforms to the standards of communication means you should be able to use this in locos it does fit and anything else in locos it doesn't fit. Which is absolutely fine and dandy for most users who are probably not super heavily invested into a full hornby DCC system or prepared to do so anyway having invested into other none bluetooth control systems long before this existed.
Storm in a teacup to generate views is what this is. Pure tabloidism run rampant on a hobby that doesn't need journalism of that ilk and doesn't benefit at all from it.
Look up the difference between conform and comply. It is Next18 but doesn't comply to the size standard, actually most decoders don't.
@highperformancecreambasedsoup I don't think hornby declares their product to be next18-s, so fair enough. If the model manufacturer says "fits next18-s" then the consumer has allmthe information they need and can choose easily. However, I think the conversation is worth having, not to point at hornby and say "you are wrong" but more to try to find some way to make it easy for modelers to determine what will fit without guessing. Maybe that already exists? The fact that reviewers are not aware of such information suggests not.
@@a.squirrel1511 it's called a publically available PDF that you download prior to buying, read, take note of the measurements, then read the NRMA documentation, then measure some locos or order one and go through what you have to see if it works.
Or someone does that anyway, then you know, then you go "huh, fair enough" and continue on your way in life because really is there any changing this? Is 99.999% of time put into this worth it? No one is going to suddenly start complying, the issues in manufacturing things aren't going to be undone and resolved back to 4 years ago, time goes one way. No rewinds no replays no edits.
Let's just get on with enjoying our trains sans the drama.
An extremely useful video, thank you, which adds to debunking Hornby’s hype. Curious, then, they sent you a decoder which you’ve shown only rarely does what they implied it would.
My overall conclusion from following this story since January is that, for the time being, HM7000 is nothing more than a DCC upgrade novelty for Hornby’s own product range. Rather like TT:120 in fact.
To be fair there was no hype, it was always put forward as a hornby system aimed at going in hornby stuff. Especially the sound option very clearly comes with sound files only covering stuff hornby makes with no clear path to use any other sound files available.
Pretty sure(will go back and watch it all again and pull up all the info I can just for you) that no one from hornby ever said it would fit any other product.
The hype seems to have come from our inference that we can just fit this in anything and that it's intended for everything not from them implying that it's a hornby product for hornby people to use in their hornby system which is what it is.
@@Trainskitsetc it’s still unfair that Hornby did this though, as if it’s NMRA comparable, it should fit.
@@modelrailfan37 they never did anything of the sort, they said it the sockets and underlying software used match up. They said it conforms to crrtain parts of that standard. That's all they did. Not that it complies, not that it compares.
Bit unfair we are pretending they advertised or advised or otherwise said it would fit anything but their own range. They did not. To claim otherwisr or that they did or that they did not have full documentation including dimensions available and free to potential customers prior to anyone making a purchase is dishonest. On this occasion hornby actually delivered the product, exactly as specified and advertised. That people didn't take a moment to read freely available information or consider what they were buying as one should before buying any equipment from disparate sources, that's not hornby's fault.
Don't work for em, don't even have much interest in most of their product range. Can however tell you anyone painting this in any orher light is taking you and the hobby for a ride.
@@Trainskitsetc I mean, not everyone is as into the hobby as we are to be completely fair. There are many people that do model railroading as a side hobby, or don’t take it super seriously. To me, this is fine, as with how few people are coming into the hobby these days, we need all the people we can get. Having extremely affordable, high quality DCC Sound decoders is great, and something this hobby has needed for a long time, but considering the low cost, this product will not only appeal to experienced members of the hobby, but also to beginners and people that only do model railroading as a side hobby. If this is the case, many people, (beginners especially) might not look at documentation for a DCC Decoder before they buy it, as every DCC decoder on the market will fit into the right slot no problem, so long as the locomotive is built to properly fit a decoder. This makes this a bit of a problem, as while I look at reviews always before buying a product, (as in the past I’ve learned there are some ripoffs in this hobby at my own experience) not everyone has the time to do this, especially if they have other hobbies besides model railroading.
@@modelrailfan37 I'd argue most beginners wouldn't even contemplate buying the parts separately and the much more likely consumer behaviour would be to simply buy the whole unit ready to go with sound decoder fitted, I'd further take a gander at what sounds are available and surmise that unless you want the wrong sound for the wrong loco you are even as a very rare beginner willing to and having the confidence to DCC fit your own stuff going to be put off by the fact modt of the sounds available don't match stuff other than cases where hornby has a competitor for that loco.
The much more likely reason these are available as a stand alone product at all is so that people who have primarily the hornby TT:120 sets can upgrade and fit the sound system their early sets didn't come with which is fine because they fit just fine. The next most likely thing we can work out is that the follow on market is people with hotnby OO items catered for in the sound library, which seems fine they seem to fit.
Neither of these customer groups is annoyed.
The only people who seem triggered are those with existing collections, who are by no means unskilled, who are generally disgruntled with the direction of hornby to begin with, those who definately do know better.
With new entrants to the hobby apparently so thin on the ground do explain how a bunch of seasoned collectors annoyed with a company making a concerted effort to belittle everything that company does as overpriced, faulty, bad and late encourage any entrant to the hobby? If everything is rubbish and expensive and all the manufacturers are greedy and out to rip us off that's only going to encourage people to look for other hobbies. Or enthral people in the drama around these people taking on the imagined evil.
Storm meets teacup atop molehill claiming to be mountain. End result, less modellers because if this is what they see trust me, they're gonna keep walking to another less messed up hobby. Sadly, this is what they will see first when engaging with our hobby via youtube. Not exactly a positive image we project of the hobby, a positive image of a few bigger youtubers maybe, but certainly not a positive image of the hobby.
anybody tried it in Hornby's Lion?
You must be joking😂
@@macnavi that's what I thought, who would think produce a product with an 18 pin connector and speaker, no sound files anywhere and your own chip won't fit
This product is not a great one from Hornby if you ask me. If Hornby say a product is NMRA compatible, it should work in any product that has enough room for the decoder. Even if this is an issue that was unavoidable, Hornby should have specified that, and not sold it as NMRA, and they should have said that it does not work with all locos on the box. Also, it’s not DCC Ready really if you have to cut parts off the model or decoder to make it fit, but that’s just my opinion.
but as you say it was made for only one type of loco and that it daft
So near and yet so far - another company who redesigns the board to be a bit smaller will make a lot of money.
The Soundtraxx boards are way smaller but more than double the price.
i watched his video and it would not fit
You just didn't try hard enough. 🤣
Take a pair of snips to the side of your phone or computer screen and it will