So glad this hit home. It's as big and important a tool as there is for jazz players. The key now is to use it in an effective way, and to be able to identify it in the real world. I hope you'll just us at www.JazzWIre.net. We work on this exact thing day in and day out there. You'll love it!
Great thanks for the video Jeff....Now I have to focus on Circle of 4th (much easier) and throw away my work with circle of 5ths. Well maybe not throw it away.
One useful thing the circle offers is this. Lets say you go to a jam session and somebody calls a 12 bar blues in Bb. 1 2 123. No time to open a note book or ask a buddy what the chords are right! You know the root is Bb right? One step to the right is the 4 chord and one step to the left from the root is the 5 chord. Pick a root....any root and the same pattern works everywhere on the circle. The trick is you need to memorize the circle like your last four, address and telephone number. You need to memorize it like a photo you can recall on to the back side of your eyeballs! Mental Practice is organizational practice!
Joel Pierson love it!! Most jazz tunes use the circle as much or more than the blues even. Good stuff. I’m so happy that we are working together at www.JazzWire.net, Joel. You are doing great work there, and sounding better and better all the time!
I'm so glad that you enjoyed this. Hey, if you haven't already, please jump in to a Free One Week limited access to JazzWire. See what we're doing behind the wall! You'll be in in 20 second, no credit card or anything like that. app.jazzwire.net/free-trial. These videos are great, but they are a SHADOW compared to the real work and we can do together!
it's still the circle of fifths. No one said it was the circle of UP fifths. Your root motions are DOWN a fifth, V to I. (No one calls the resolution "V up a fourth to VIII", right?) Anyway, I realize it's "horses for courses" but I prefer looking at the clock the regular way, with the rising motion going right and the resolutions downward going left. To me it most matches the experience at the keyboard, the downward pull of the cycle taking you to the left not the right.
Thanks for the thoughtful note. From my long (very long!) experience, I think most folks think of ascending intervals first, hence the 4ths thing. Either way, as long as we are processing from C to F to Bb, I don't really care what we call it!! Hey, if you haven't already, please jump in to a Free 30 Day Limited access to JazzWire. I would love to work together with you in a more meaningful (and not too expensive) way. With the Free 30 Day Trial, you’ll see what we're doing behind the wall! You'll be inside in about 20 seconds, no credit card required. app.jazzwire.net/free-trial. These videos are great, but they are a SHADOW compared to the real work and we can do together!
So, I’ve visited the circle of fourths many times and I always gave up after a month or two because I felt it wasn’t doing anything for my playing, but each time I took away a little more knowledge about it. This time you gave me a few more tangible things to thing about. Plus you mentioned a song I had been working on and never realized it followed the circle of fourths. Sometimes you don’t see the forest for the trees. Good lesson Jeff.
And, this is EXACTLY why you'll be joining us soon at www.JazzWire.net, Robert! Imagine if you had the guidance and support to have really worked through the circle of fourths, a year or a decade ago. You'd be playing at a semi-pro level right now!! We'll get you there, brother. See you soon!
MIND BLOWN! Been playing guitar for 40 years and no one EVER explained THE POINT of the circle of fourths to me before, I'm mostly a blues-rock player so this was a revelation! Thank you Jeff! #myteacherssucked!!
The circle has practical potential on the bandstand also. A couple gems I observed are you can quickly see what the 4 chord and 5 chord are when somebody calls for a 12 bar blues. One key center clockwise is the fourth and one key center counter clockwise is the fifth. The same technique applies to any 2 5 1. Two key centers counter clockwise is the 2 chord and one key center counter clockwise is the 5 chord. No error prone, time consuming counting needed however, it does require you to memorize the circle really well. It needs to become a recallable image to be useful. A genus dreamed it up 500 years ago and it is indisputable but, many players resist the idea to this day! Some say it's mostly guitar players? I don't know. Just repeating what I hear.
@@JeffAntoniukEducator….My mind wandered off while binge watching Narco's Mexico and started thinking about Digging Deeper #87 and realized I could use the circle to see the 5th somewhat quickly using the 1 2 5 pattern around the circle. Can't do it in time yet but will keep trying. Cool stuff!
@@joelpierson2628 OK, so I'm going to take that as a SERIOUS compliment . . . "Narcos" is really good. The fact that you were thinking about TWO different Digging Deeper Videos while watching it. I can retire a happy man!! :)
It may seem to be a subtle point, but the basic root movement in Western music is V-I, that is, a descending fifth (followed by chromatic step, then whole step). Seeing the circle as ascending fourths obscures this, especially for new players. It is better to regard the circle as cascading descending fifths, C-F-Bb-Eb-Ab etc. This reflects actual music practise using descending 5ths in e.g., ii-V-I, secondary dominants, basic authentic cadences. It's a small point maybe but ties practise to theory.
I totally get it That said, in practice (at least in jazz), we are always talking about ascending intervals in my experience. Don't know if it's right or wrong, but there it is. So, I think most jazz students will get much more traction thinking about ascending fourths, hence the circle of fourths. And all THAT said . . . whatever gets you playing better by week's end, THAT is the way to do it!! Thanks for the great note.
Agree. Falling (descending) fifths is used a lot in Baroque music (Monteverdi, Schütz, Bach..) but also in classical and romantic music (Schubert). The German term "Quintfallsequenz" reflects this. Also the word "cadence" in the sense of a harmonic progression that comes to an end (tonika) comes from "falling". I think the picture of gravity that brings us back home, down to earth, by falling fifths works pretty well. So I always talk about the circle of fifths, meaning exactly the same as shown in the video, but referring to descending fifths.
@@JeffAntoniukEducator As I said, it's a subtle point. Next time you play a V-I ask if you are thinking of it as an ascending fourth? But don't freak out!
@@JeffAntoniukEducator Too many years ago, I learned classical theory, so circle of 5ths. A few years ago, when I started to learn jazz so learned circle of 4ths. I'd forgotten much of the theory I had learned. A while ago it struck me that this was counter to actual practise and it took a few months to shake off the ascending 4ths thinking! Not keen to switch back again!
Nice video, Jeff. Even though as a longtime Jeff/Fred student I’ve practiced the circle many ways, you’ve given me new insights. A tangent off your remark that having the 12 at, errr, 12 o’clock is arbitrary. In Ethiopia, the 6 is at 12 o’clock and the day begins at (our) 6 am; kind of logical. I think this is also the way the days work on Groundhog Day.
Very cool Jeff! I had to prove the C dim7 circle technique you revealed. Sure enough, C Eb Gb A is a C Dim7 chord. Root b3 b5 bb'd maj7. Problem is it took me 10 minutes to prove it! I'm adding this to my bag of tricks!
I'm glad you are checking me on this stuff. I"m just some guy on the internet. This could be total crap. Alas . . . it's not!! Thanks for tuning in Joel.
@@joelpierson2628 I was SERIOUS!!! I LOVE it when people learn things for themselves, even if it was just explained to them. Just "hearing something cool" isn't the end of the story. We then need to GO DO IT. I love it Joel. You have the right idea. Try things out for yourself.
Another excellent video lesson! Love your vids, love your playing... I love you man! Paul Bollenback introduced me to this concept years ago. He also had me do it diatonicly. This is especially important for guitarists and bassist as its one of the most difficult intervals to use on those instruments. Absolutely essential!! Thank you Jeff, once again!!
Thanks so much Scott. Paul is a great player and very cool, fun guy. We've worked together over the years, most recently at Maryland Summer Jazz. Great that you know him.
it would be nice if you always used the concert key...some lessons like rythm change lesson, I always try to play with you that's the thing...that way it is difficult to immideately transpose and play with you..
Well, like I said in the video, beginning in the key of "C" is entirely arbitrary. Begin anywhere you want. Really, changing it up every few days is ideal. Good question!!
I've been trying to play around the circle for, I'm sorry to say, a half dozen years now and it's still ragged but, something I recently noticed is F#/Gb forces me to think enharmonically which is a brain twister for me. If I could start over, I would start on F#/Gb as the whole thing gets easier from there. The finger facility gained down there at 6 o'clock is invaluable and rewarding.
Same old mic (a Shure KSM 32). It's usually below the frame when I'm playing tenor (so you don't usually see it), but was higher up for the soprano. Thanks Martin!!
< ¿ Why does Human Music tends and falls for the Circle of Fourths? There is a conspiracy here...Maybe some fourthForce is driving us there...ummm . Groovy BaBy tickle my DNA ! If you are ever lost summon *+ O of 4ths*+. What does uncle Pythagoras say about this ? > >
Brilliant. An eye opener.
So glad this hit home. It's as big and important a tool as there is for jazz players. The key now is to use it in an effective way, and to be able to identify it in the real world. I hope you'll just us at www.JazzWIre.net. We work on this exact thing day in and day out there. You'll love it!
Jeff, as always, you inspire me to make music! Thanks, so much.
So happy to hear you are inspired, Thom. I hope we'll get to work together at www.JazzWire.net. You will have a BLAST there!
Great thanks for the video Jeff....Now I have to focus on Circle of 4th (much easier) and throw away my work with circle of 5ths. Well maybe not throw it away.
Progressing UP a 4th (or you could think down a 5th) is THE way to go, for sure. C to F to Bb, etc. So glad to hear from you Derek!!
One useful thing the circle offers is this. Lets say you go to a jam session and somebody calls a 12 bar blues in Bb. 1 2 123. No time to open a note book or ask a buddy what the chords are right!
You know the root is Bb right? One step to the right is the 4 chord and one step to the left from the root is the 5 chord. Pick a root....any root and the same pattern works everywhere on the circle. The trick is you need to memorize the circle like your last four, address and telephone number. You need to memorize it like a photo you can recall on to the back side of your eyeballs! Mental Practice is organizational practice!
Joel Pierson love it!! Most jazz tunes use the circle as much or more than the blues even. Good stuff. I’m so happy that we are working together at www.JazzWire.net, Joel. You are doing great work there, and sounding better and better all the time!
Sir thanks for your explanation it makes a lot of sense.
I'm so glad that you enjoyed this. Hey, if you haven't already, please jump in to a Free One Week limited access to JazzWire. See what we're doing behind the wall! You'll be in in 20 second, no credit card or anything like that. app.jazzwire.net/free-trial. These videos are great, but they are a SHADOW compared to the real work and we can do together!
it's still the circle of fifths. No one said it was the circle of UP fifths. Your root motions are DOWN a fifth, V to I. (No one calls the resolution "V up a fourth to VIII", right?)
Anyway, I realize it's "horses for courses" but I prefer looking at the clock the regular way, with the rising motion going right and the resolutions downward going left. To me it most matches the experience at the keyboard, the downward pull of the cycle taking you to the left not the right.
Thanks for the thoughtful note. From my long (very long!) experience, I think most folks think of ascending intervals first, hence the 4ths thing. Either way, as long as we are processing from C to F to Bb, I don't really care what we call it!!
Hey, if you haven't already, please jump in to a Free 30 Day Limited access to JazzWire. I would love to work together with you in a more meaningful (and not too expensive) way. With the Free 30 Day Trial, you’ll see what we're doing behind the wall! You'll be inside in about 20 seconds, no credit card required. app.jazzwire.net/free-trial. These videos are great, but they are a SHADOW compared to the real work and we can do together!
thanks Jeff another great lesson
Thanks Richard. I appreciate your tuning in to Digging Deeper.
So, I’ve visited the circle of fourths many times and I always gave up after a month or two because I felt it wasn’t doing anything for my playing, but each time I took away a little more knowledge about it. This time you gave me a few more tangible things to thing about. Plus you mentioned a song I had been working on and never realized it followed the circle of fourths. Sometimes you don’t see the forest for the trees. Good lesson Jeff.
And, this is EXACTLY why you'll be joining us soon at www.JazzWire.net, Robert! Imagine if you had the guidance and support to have really worked through the circle of fourths, a year or a decade ago. You'd be playing at a semi-pro level right now!! We'll get you there, brother. See you soon!
Thank you for sharing Jeff 🎶🎶🎶🎶🎷😎✌🏽
Thank YOU for watching, Leo.
MIND BLOWN! Been playing guitar for 40 years and no one EVER explained THE POINT of the circle of fourths to me before, I'm mostly a blues-rock player so this was a revelation! Thank you Jeff! #myteacherssucked!!
BOOM! There it is!! So happy that this hit home for you Frank. Stay in touch, and stay tuned.
The circle has practical potential on the bandstand also. A couple gems I observed are you can quickly see what the 4 chord and 5 chord are when somebody calls for a 12 bar blues. One key center clockwise is the fourth and one key center counter clockwise is the fifth. The same technique applies to any 2 5 1. Two key centers counter clockwise is the 2 chord and one key center counter clockwise is the 5 chord. No error prone, time consuming counting needed however, it does require you to memorize the circle really well. It needs to become a recallable image to be useful.
A genus dreamed it up 500 years ago and it is indisputable but, many players resist the idea to this day! Some say it's mostly guitar players? I don't know. Just repeating what I hear.
There are SO MANY ways the circle of 4ths helps us out. Just use it a bit each day in your practice, and all will be revealed!
@@JeffAntoniukEducator….My mind wandered off while binge watching Narco's Mexico and started thinking about Digging Deeper #87 and realized I could use the circle to see the 5th somewhat quickly using the 1 2 5 pattern around the circle. Can't do it in time yet but will keep trying. Cool stuff!
@@joelpierson2628 OK, so I'm going to take that as a SERIOUS compliment . . . "Narcos" is really good. The fact that you were thinking about TWO different Digging Deeper Videos while watching it. I can retire a happy man!! :)
Yes... It was the best explanation of 4th's 👌🏼👌🏼👌🏼 thanks a lot
Wonderfull lesson as usual, top draw and great delivery. Thank you Jeff.
Thanks Chris. So happy you enjoyed it!
It may seem to be a subtle point, but the basic root movement in Western music is V-I, that is, a descending fifth (followed by chromatic step, then whole step). Seeing the circle as ascending fourths obscures this, especially for new players. It is better to regard the circle as cascading descending fifths, C-F-Bb-Eb-Ab etc. This reflects actual music practise using descending 5ths in e.g., ii-V-I, secondary dominants, basic authentic cadences. It's a small point maybe but ties practise to theory.
I totally get it That said, in practice (at least in jazz), we are always talking about ascending intervals in my experience. Don't know if it's right or wrong, but there it is. So, I think most jazz students will get much more traction thinking about ascending fourths, hence the circle of fourths. And all THAT said . . . whatever gets you playing better by week's end, THAT is the way to do it!! Thanks for the great note.
Agree. Falling (descending) fifths is used a lot in Baroque music (Monteverdi, Schütz, Bach..) but also in classical and romantic music (Schubert). The German term "Quintfallsequenz" reflects this. Also the word "cadence" in the sense of a harmonic progression that comes to an end (tonika) comes from "falling". I think the picture of gravity that brings us back home, down to earth, by falling fifths works pretty well. So I always talk about the circle of fifths, meaning exactly the same as shown in the video, but referring to descending fifths.
@@JeffAntoniukEducator As I said, it's a subtle point. Next time you play a V-I ask if you are thinking of it as an ascending fourth? But don't freak out!
@@ggauche3465 I actually do!! Weird huh? G UP to C.
@@JeffAntoniukEducator Too many years ago, I learned classical theory, so circle of 5ths. A few years ago, when I started to learn jazz so learned circle of 4ths. I'd forgotten much of the theory I had learned. A while ago it struck me that this was counter to actual practise and it took a few months to shake off the ascending 4ths thinking! Not keen to switch back again!
Nice video, Jeff. Even though as a longtime Jeff/Fred student I’ve practiced the circle many ways, you’ve given me new insights.
A tangent off your remark that having the 12 at, errr, 12 o’clock is arbitrary. In Ethiopia, the 6 is at 12 o’clock and the day begins at (our) 6 am; kind of logical. I think this is also the way the days work on Groundhog Day.
The Ethiopians have a good system it sounds like! Glad you got something good from this, John.
Very cool Jeff! I had to prove the C dim7 circle technique you revealed. Sure enough, C Eb Gb A is a C Dim7 chord. Root b3 b5 bb'd maj7. Problem is it took me 10 minutes to prove it! I'm adding this to my bag of tricks!
I'm glad you are checking me on this stuff. I"m just some guy on the internet. This could be total crap. Alas . . . it's not!! Thanks for tuning in Joel.
@@JeffAntoniukEducator...Sorry Jeff. I didn't mean it like that but, can see how it rightfully could. I carry a foot extractor where ever I go!
@@joelpierson2628 I was SERIOUS!!! I LOVE it when people learn things for themselves, even if it was just explained to them. Just "hearing something cool" isn't the end of the story. We then need to GO DO IT. I love it Joel. You have the right idea. Try things out for yourself.
Another excellent video lesson! Love your vids, love your playing... I love you man! Paul Bollenback introduced me to this concept years ago. He also had me do it diatonicly. This is especially important for guitarists and bassist as its one of the most difficult intervals to use on those instruments. Absolutely essential!! Thank you Jeff, once again!!
Thanks so much Scott. Paul is a great player and very cool, fun guy. We've worked together over the years, most recently at Maryland Summer Jazz. Great that you know him.
it would be nice if you always used the concert key...some lessons like rythm change lesson, I always try to play with you that's the thing...that way it is difficult to immideately transpose and play with you..
Oh, them's fightin' words...
-J.S. Bach
Just as I thought I was done doing technique and patterns for the day, Jeff comes up with another video to practice on...
What can I say Nick? My job is to mess with people for a living!! Nice work if you can get it. :)
< O of 4Ths = Never ending Nirvana ! >
Soooooooooooo .... If I'm playing tenor sax I should transpose and start with D to G?
Well, like I said in the video, beginning in the key of "C" is entirely arbitrary. Begin anywhere you want. Really, changing it up every few days is ideal. Good question!!
I've been trying to play around the circle for, I'm sorry to say, a half dozen years now and it's still ragged but, something I recently noticed is F#/Gb forces me to think enharmonically which is a brain twister for me. If I could start over, I would start on F#/Gb as the whole thing gets easier from there. The finger facility gained down there at 6 o'clock is invaluable and rewarding.
For sure @@joelpierson2628
New mic, Jeff? ;-). Nice video, btw.
Same old mic (a Shure KSM 32). It's usually below the frame when I'm playing tenor (so you don't usually see it), but was higher up for the soprano. Thanks Martin!!
Hi Jeff can you provide me with a copy of the pdfs showed in this video? Thanks.
For sure. Just email us at DiggingDeeperJazz @ gmail.com and we'll get them off to you.
< ¿ Why does Human Music tends and falls for the Circle of Fourths? There is a conspiracy here...Maybe some fourthForce is driving us there...ummm . Groovy BaBy tickle my DNA ! If you are ever lost summon *+ O of 4ths*+. What does uncle Pythagoras say about this ? >
>
Just the wonderful leading tone, from E to F. Humans can't resist it! My dog seems indifferent, but humans seem to like it.
Relationships,relationships and more relationships,,,, oh,DING! Thanks Jeff.