Yes the engine and car have survived. I have been commissioned to repair and restore the engine. The car is being restored at the owners facility. The cam and follower system has issues. The problems are being adressed, new cams being made etc. If you are interested in following the project Adam, give me a call. Im in Michigan and easy to find. Scott Tiemann Supercar Specialties
@@will7itsI also saw the zip ties and thought this has to be more recent photo, indicating it's still around. Glad to hear it is indeed being looked after.
That is awesome to hear! So glad to hear a rare piece of history is being saved! I'm not far from you over at Roush, where we do Ford prototypes. But I cannot get enough of the retro Pontiacs! My father used to run a 57 Vette with a 421 bored and stroked to 482 inches, 6-71 blower, mech. injection with ported heads, and a roller cam. In the 60's he'd run it down from Saginaw to the D using 3.08's and switch to 5.13 's for Woodward. He claimed to have put many factory cars back on their trailers and could dip into the high 9's at the strip. The Vette was stolen in 1974 when I was eight, but I remember it just barely. I distinctly remember holding a few old cams he had in the garage and seeing McKeller stamped on them! He sold the hardtop and hood when I was a teen, by then I was old enough to understand what happened to the car and what it had in it...along with a million stories about how he started with a 389 and everything that broke along the way. He did mention something about OHC's, but it's a bit fuzzy now after so many years.
I had just turned 18. I had a 74 Monte Carlo. My cousin stopped by my apartment told me he was getting a divorce. He had a 68 Firebird Heavy Duty 455. He asked if I wanted to buy it do she couldn't get it. I said ABSOLUTELY! He said $500(1978). I went to the bank withdrew the money. I was saving for college. I thought s GTO would be an investment. I bought it and put it in my parents garage. I drove it to work. My wife (I married my high school sweetheart. I had it about a year. Drove it to work one day. I worked at a warehouse. A semi tractor/trailer turned in the wrong entrance. He turned to soon and ran over the back of the car. The car was totalled. But I pulled the motor though. It is sitting downstairs in my garage. I've been offered $10,000 for the motor. I was just presented with my 1st grandson. That motor is his!!! I'm 65 i hope im still here when he turns 16. I still have my Monte Carlo. I'm going to give it to him with that 455 HD under the hood!
Ngl, I know 445 SD and H.O.s are expensive, but I'd heavily consider selling the engine itself to someone that needs it. Pontiac are so expensive to build and not as competitive compared to l.s. engines which will most likely be more readily available when your grandson turns 16 vs a engine produced between 1969-1976. Plus most kids ring the shit out of engines and destroy them and 455 are, expensive and rarer
I’d sell it and put the money into a big block Chevy or something. It’s a cool story but swapping a Pontiac into a Chevy would be like swapping a 460 into a Dodge challenger- it just doesn’t make much sense.
My Buddy had a Lucie Blue '72 Trans Am... 455 H.O. 4 Speed. Back when the Shaker Hood Scoop was 100% functional. Nothing sounds quite like a properly tuned Pontiac V-8. The mid range torque was phenomenal.
Someone on the internet knew someone who's dads brothers neighbors coworker at a Hemi powered Polara station wagon with a 4 speed. Was one of those "special order vehicles." There was actually quite a few of them, or maybe it was that everyone on social media knew the same person whose dads brothers neighbors coworker owned a Hemi Polara.
Wow Adam, I had me a 1968 Firebird with the One bbl, 250 OHC, right before I finished H.S. I traded a '71 Datsun 510 Wagon for it. The guy was in H.S. married, and had children. He needed a wagon ,for his family, didn't need this car, the trade was good. That Firebird needed some SERIOUS/IMMEDIATE work. The master cylinder (if you pressed hard and quick you would have brakes for the moment), needed rebuilding. The throttle cable was mounted to the dash, like that of an old tractor. I immediately drove over to Lakeport Pontiac, bought a new accelerator cable, installed it. Instead of going to the Senior Prom, spent that day/evening at my friends dads shop, where I helped him do a head/valve job to it. Sold it in '82, before going into the USMC, and bought a beautiful 1975 Honda CB400F, SuperSport,, put 1000 miles on it, then went off, into boot camp ,in Oct.'82. Still have that motorcycle. Gonna sell it pretty soon
That quad cam V8 would have been amazing. I know in the ‘60s Mercedes was using Bosch D-Jetronic fuel injection. Used 8 electronic fuel injectors with a common fuel rail. Injectors were batch fired by a second set of points in the bottom of the distributor. If Pontiac was looking in to something similar, that would have been sweet!
D-jetronic was bought from bendix, they had the electrojector analog efi in 1957 used in rambler and some chryslers but failed and bendix sold the system to bosch which improved it further and created the d jet 10 years later
@@288gto7Huh, that’s very interesting. Pretty sweet they had that tech so long ago. But, as I’ve been learning, most modern engine innovations are actually quite old.
@@JohnEvans-ct6mz yeah a lot of the stuff goes waaay back in their origins. Also the biggest change with d jet was change to silicone based transistors rather than the germanium ones used in the electrojector
D-Jetronic was impressive at the time, but absolute garbage today - I can tell you as a classic Mercedes mechanic, that K-Jetronic is (still to this very day) the most reliable, dependable fuel delivery system ever invented, closely followed by Mercedes’s own proprietary fuel-injection system they developed (which is largely based on it).
It is my understanding that Bosch replaced the D-Jetronic EFI with L-Jetronic EFI. It still used pulsed electronic injectors. However, they replaced the pressure sensor with an airflow sensor. The early mass air engines used something the resembled a weather vane. L-Jetronic was installed in the early Datsun 280.
Adam, Fascinating, this is the first I have heard of a Pontiac V8 with overhead cams. If bolted to a Muncie wide ratio, 4 speed transmission and limited slip differential, they certainly could have made a spicy Safari wagon with one of those. 😁
First car was a $50 '67 Pontiac Executive with the 400cid v8, turbo 400 trans to a 3.31 rear end, re-jetted carb, re-curved distributor and Thrush dual axhaust. Cook Co. sheriff radared me at 140mph southbound on Rt 45 towards I-80 in 1983. His Ford Fairmont never had a chance. Ahhhh, the good old days! 😃
I remember my Dads 1969 Bonneville with a 428 and dual exhaust on a station wagon! As a fifth grader I remember calling my friend on a telephone to come over to see my Dads race car wagon, haha!!
My first new car was to have been a '67 Tempest with the Sprint OHC six, but I was diverted by a great deal on a Mustang. I still have that Hot Rod magazine with all the OHC Pontiac engines. Great episode.
From what I've read over the years, John DeLorean was the driving force behind that engine, the OHC 6, because of the high-revving 6 cylinders in Europe. The Sprint versions with a Quadrajet, and you could get it with a 4 speed, depending on the rear diff ratio, some guys have said the OHC 6 Sprint equipped cars performed pretty well (they'll rev to 7,000), while getting 24 mpg. Ahead of it's time
There was also the Infamous Pontiac 303 All Aluminum with Round Port heads, they make to compete in Trans am Racing with over 450 HP. Also the Legendary Ram Air 5 400 Pontiac with over 500 HP also with Round Port heads, that was in the GTO a Rare Engine with less then 500 made.
Wow, I remember that cover, almost got me in trouble. I had that mag in my senior HS english class and my teacher balled me out for reading that "trash". I thought my dream job would be to work at Pontiac engine research. After getting my degree in Mechanical Engineering, I landed a job working at Ford engine research and had a lot of fun. Rotary engines, gas turbines, and did a lot of work on Direct Injection. Also saw Ford put the first computer in a car. I took up the whole back seat and we thought that was a crazy idea!
I remember first reading about these engines in the late 1980's. I was fascinated by them at the time, but the only OHC Pontiac engine I've ever seen in person is the OHC 6, It was in a 1968 Firebird. I almost walked past it at the car show before I realized what it was.
Back in the day the talk was that Pontiac was inspired by the very successful Jaguar XK 6 DOHC motor that was introduced in 1948. By 1961 the Jaguar XKE 6 was 3.8 liters/ 230 cubic inches and rated at an optimistic 265 brake horsepower. Regardless of the actual output, examples could reach 150 mph making it the World’s Fastest mass produced production car. The fact that Jaguar had won LeMans 5 times with this motor in the 1950’s gave it prestige and drove sales. Also notable was that the Jaguar XK 6 was much less expensive than other premium European power plants. This created the possibility of Pontiac building a production engine offering the same technology at an approachable price point. The rest of the car would be conventional and far cheaper to produce than the XKE body and chassis with its racing derived components.
I recall that the production Pontiac OHC 6 was plagued with camshaft failure issues. Does anyone know if the cam ran directly in the aluminum head, or was supported by replaceable bearing shells like the Jaguar design. KTM 790/890/ 901 twin cylinder motorcycles are currently suffering from premature camshaft failures. Apparently a lot of careful engineering is required to design the OHC system for reliability.
@@garthlundquist3623I think from reading my HPP & PE mags years ago, the camshaft didn't have a true bearing to ride in, but in the aluminum. And some had excessive wear like you wrote. The Jaguar XKE 6 cylinder, John DeLorean wanted to emulate that from what I recall, he was the driving force getting the OHC 6 built
Cams riding on cast aluminum heads is common. To make them last, having really frequent oil and filter changes is a must. Given what did tech not exist back in the 1960s, it would not surprise me if there was no way to make a cylinder head last, even if you changed the oil and filter ahead of schedule. Some SOHC and DOHC engines still have durability problems. I do wonder what the causes can be.
Pontiac had the first tunnel ram manifold for the 421 motor. It had two AFB's. Another first was the "trap door carburetor" (three barrel) for their Nascar motors. Was banned. I think only thirteen were made. Yes, Pontiac had some great ideas. Too bad we did not see more of them!
Adam does it again! Another first! Been a car guy all my life and never heard of the OHC V8s. Heard of the OHC 6s. In fact, knew a guy who had one many years ago but never heard of the 8s. Though strangely, that magazine cover looks vaguely familiar, like something I might have seen lying around somewhere back in the day.
Kinda like the aluminum V-8s they made. I’m sure that story is online. Someone got one of the dozen or so Alcoa blocks, machined it and put it in a Lucerne blue trans am.
Indeed - the Vauxhall slant 4. Vauxhall initially also planned a V8 version of that engine using many of the same parts, but that never made it past the prototype stage.
Thanks for doing a video on this. I'd heard of Oldmobile's attempts at four valve per cylinder engines, but not this, somehow. One additional guess as to why this was a no go is that at its top levels, at least, it would have meant spending more money on the suspension and brakes. I mean, 600 plus horsepower means you'd better provide the driver with a means to maintain control...
I think that Pontiac was ahead of the other GM divisions, as far as engine development goes. They could have justified the overhead cam engine, by allowing the other divisions to use it. Everyone would have benefited from it.
As much as I love old european engines - old Alpha Romeos, Jaguars, Lancias and Maseratis - I have to admit that the simplicity and purity of an american V8 block is fascinating. SO is it's history. Great vid.
Yes, I think that these advanced engines should have made it to production. It would be easier to adapt them to less emissions and still provide significant power.
Pretty cool for the time. The cylinder head on the OHC 6 cyl. looks not too efficient - crossflow is better. GM retrofitted their 3.4 engine with OHC in the Monte Carlo 30 years later. They picked a wonderful place to relocate the alternator on those. The OHC vs OHV debate is ongoing. Chevy's LS engines have disproved many myths about OHC engines being superior in every way.
@@johnz8210 ohv compared to dohc saving a lot of space and weight allows them to still run big displacement. Ls3 vs bmw s65 is great example. Ls3 is better than s65 on every metric
Crossflow is an advantage, but it depends on how it is executed. The most effective crossflow heads were a kind of hemi design. However, those tended to be much more expensive to build. Many cheaper crossflow heads were of the wedge or bathtub chamber heads. They didn't do all that much to improve performance. Some of the carb engines were counterflow because it was easier to preheat the incoming air that way. It was no longer needed if there was multiport fuel injection. The Datsun Z car was a counter flow SOHC engine. Racing teams had a prototype called an LZ head, which was crossflow. From what I read, the cost was not justifiable.
If they had continued R&D on these overhead cam engines. And changed their focus from power to efficiency. They probably wouldn't have taken long to produce them in mass quantities. I wonder if they tried to use this logic to get past the 'bean counters'. If GM had been more focused on producing the best products instead of the highest profits. The 70s and 80s could've been so much better for them. And for us. I know not all 'bean counters' are single minded. But it seems that a lot are. Looks like GM needed more finance guys like Adam around. People who could keep the numbers straight without killing the cars
@@Sheisthedevilyouknowwho-ft9we I had one in 1980/1. You could carry it around by the front main. Had a magnesium Doug Nash intake manifold for the RA IV heads. It was a dyno manifold from Pontiac development, and had popsicle sticks in a couple of areas in the lower part of the plenum to help with fuel distribution. Manifold weighed nothing.
Boy, that Hot Rod cover brought back memories. Those were great times when, as a kid, I'd wonder just what was ahead. Thank goodness for passionate engineers. Yes, the bean counters (Adam) have their role, but without passion, a car is just a machine with no personality.
Holden, General Motors Australian division in 1987 was up grading the 304 ci 5.0 litre V8 ( later 355ci 5.8L in its final form) and did exactly the same thing , put a single overhead cam on the V8 , it was a 3 valve design and came so close to production, there were 20 Holden VN Commadore,s fitted with the test engines and many pictures on line of the Holden 5.0L OHC motor . In the end they went with a conventional design and " Bunch Of Bananas " intake ( as they got called) that looks exactly like a production LS1 intake , but this was 10 years B4 the LS , the Holden had same port layout as LS , same chev bellhousing, same Delco engine management, infact if you look up a pic of a 1988 Holden 5.0 L Injected motor, it looks a lot like a LS1 . They were grate motors , roller cam , sequential injection in later ones , the last top version of the Holden V8 was in 1997 in the HSV Holden Commadore,s in 355 ci 5.8 L , it was changed to a 5.7 L LS1 the next year 1998 .
It is such a shame that The Big Three ended up killing off all of their innovation when it could have changed the way engines were built well up to now. OHC engines could have helped make the 1970s better, maybe still not great, but better. GM, in this case, could have used their OHC innovations to have made much more efficient engines right off the bat, and could have likely done a better job going toe-to-toe with the rest of the world in V8s, 6 cylinders and 4 cylinders. Instead, we got what we got, and innovation stayed slow even to this day.
The old magazine, High Performance Pontiac, showcased tons of innovations that Pontiac tried over the years. Despite all the GM tampering to stop racing development (well Chevy sure got away with a lot of racing), Pontiac made some crazy setups, knowing they couldn't use it in the end anyway.
Yeah, I've got a lot of HPP and PE mags, GM seemed to try to limit Pontiac to some degree, but not Chevy in those decades, according to guys that worked at Pontiac. A lot of innovative engineering they came up with, that the top people didn't want to approve, because the Corvette was at the other division. Super Duty 455 still got built though top guys at GM didn't really want to. From what I can remember reading, a lot of that came from work on the Nascar 366 engine, and Ram Air V, through the late '60s, early 70s, provision for dry sump oiling, the heads had some help from an outside company, if not AiResearch, something similarly named. Not an all-out racing engine, but it had a lot of those earmarks
An overhead cam Pontiac V8 is an interesting idea, but it is hard to imagine that it would have offered radically more power than the Super Duty heads did. Overhead valve engines have the advantage of less valve train mass allowing higher engine RPM. They also offer the ability of adding more valves per cylinder as mentioned, thus giving the heads greater flow ability. The third advantage they offer is to allow designing the ports in the head to flow more freely. At 389 cu in a Pontiac engine already had a lot of rotating mass and a valve train lightening would not have significantly increased the maximum RPM the engine could maintain. Pontiac engines were near square as far as bore x stroke, so the two large valves per cylinder they already had flowed about as much air as they could use in their max RPM range. As for improved runners, the SD heads showed that Pontiac was working on this idea for their normal push rod engines. The Super Duty engines really did a super job moving that air/fuel mixture into the cylinders. This research never made it into a Pontiac V8, but I have to believe it was of great influence as Chevy designed the Vega overhead cam engine. With the Vega engine, as GM had seen in the small Buick aluminum V8 15 years earlier, putting aluminum engines in the market that is dominated by people that do a poor job maintaining their vehicles is a recipe for disaster. Aluminum sealing up to iron will tend to develop leaks. If you are not regularly checking your engine, small leaks become big problems with low coolant and overheating, to warped heads or blown head gaskets. Boy, that turned into a ramble.
overhead cams are great in their way, but they make the V8 a much larger package. Take a look at a 4.6 Ford at only 281 cubic inches and it's a huge lump. It works fine, but way big for the displacement.
"Overhead valve engines have the advantage of less valve train mass " Did you mean OHC? Without rocker arms and push rods, OHC engines have considerably less valve train mass, and are noted for high rpm performance,
I knew about the OHC 6, but I was not aware that there were v8’s designed! The v8’s should have gone into production given the power and fuel efficiency capability.
Pontiac built some great cars with great power plants. Ironically, I read an article the other day about the Buick Grand National powered 89 Trans Am Pace Car. The article said the car was rejected by Pontiac purists who hated to see a Buick V-6 turbo under the hood. I kind of thought the article didn’t have much merit because by then Trans AMs and other Pontiacs were running Chevrolet motors (or lesser Buick V-6s). Anyway, a very interesting video.
Hot Rod ran a story within the last couple of years titledthe "Academic 303" about an engine project with REPCO in Australia where they designed a 303 ci SOHC V8 but went nowhere because a conventional head V8 of the same size had better power output. Neat little piece, you should check it out.
Another great video Adam! Thank you! Correct me if I'm wrong wasn't John Deloren the head of the Pontiac division at that time? He himself was an innovator, wanted to revamp Pontiac entirely. He did. Was l told before he took over, Pontiac was known for being an "old person's " car and wanted to attract younger buyers with newer names, designs, high output engines,etc. He had brought with him his design team and the rest is history. Sometimes l thought there was an inner division rivalry between Pontiac and Chevrolet at that time, who could put the biggest engine in the smallest car kind of thing. With the horsepower wars heating up in the mid-60's he was in his "hay day" to him the sky was the limit and corporate politics. The engines in this video proved it. Too bad they didn't make it into production, just think what would have happened if they were. It probably would have changed the muscle car era.
I have had dealings with Pontiacs over my life. My dad had a '69 GTO when I was in grade school. Yellow w/black vinyl top, 400/4-speed car. One of the cars I learned to drive on was a 71 Pontiac Ventura 6 Cyl/ 3 on-the-tree (I actually took the test in a 66 Coupe De Ville, lol). I myself have owned 4 Pontiacs, a '69 Firebird Convertible (350/Auto), 3 Fieros (yep 3). Based on all that, you might think I am a GM afficionado, however, I am all over the place on that stuff. I currently have 3 oldish Fords. Go figure
Shame that GM abandoned technology in the 1960's. Imagine if they hit the 70's with aluminum block, OHC, turbocharged, fuel injected engines to make decent power and fuel economy. I guess you can't argue with sales though....the OHC 6 was pricey compared to an equivalent power 389.
Thank you Adam. I think this video was quite interesting and educational. It is interesting Pontiac was doing this back in the 1960's. Just imagine would could have been. That is one of things the reorganization in the 1980's took away from this GM brands was doing things like this. This was not the only time they were innovative at Pontiac.
I saw a small write up on the 421 front drive ohc it was called the street version it 10- 1 compression three twos and put out 470 hp I think at 6000 rpm I wish Pontiac would have released it I wish I could have remember where I read it.
It's really unfortunate that regulations killed off the performance aspect of auto makers back then. Would have been so cool to see where they would have gone with this design.
I had a OHC 6 4 bbl 3 speed in a 67 Lemans sprint con it had 4 piston disc brakes on front factory air and power steering basically everything GTO had except V8. Was a very fun car to drive revved up quick faster than people thought surprised a lot of V8s off the line
I'd seen pictures of the overhead cam straight 6 many times but never till today did I notice that the thermostat housing goes into the camcover... That looks ominous to me...
@@hotpuppy1 That's not correct,, the thermostat housing IS part of the cam box/cover,,,, the cam cover gasket has an integral section that seals the thermostat inlet to the head and that's where the trouble lies.... If that fails coolant dumps right into the engine. I did some sleuthing after I commented and having that gasket fail and getting coolant in the oil WAS and IS A THING. Not a chronic problem apparently but it happens.. I KNEW I didn't like the looks of it.. lol
Hey Adam, that picture you're showing of that OHC engine at 2:55 has one of those early Quadrajets on it, very very similar to the one that's on your '66 Toronado. You can tell it's one of the first ones because it's got the arm connectig the secondary air doors to the fuel dampening mechanisim rather than the vacuum break dampener that came along in '67 when these things were redesigned. There is a lot of hate for those '65 & '66 Quadrajets! I wonder if thats the correct carb for that engine? I also have a '66 Toronado with that carb so I recognized it immediately. I'm gonna have to consult my Delco bible for this Pontiac engine to see what carb it is. I would guess it's a '66 model.
I would take a Pontiac V8 with overhead cams over a Pontiac with AC any day.... lol Adam, where would people get the cam drivebelt today for a 60's Pontiac with the overhead cam six cylinder?
Nice video, informative. None of these were available or proven through, just concepts and ideas. Did you know- Pontiac had a real HEMI proven racing engine in 1962?! Mickey Thompson and Pontiac made HEMI engines at a time when chrysler did not! The HEMI Pontiac V8 was a proven winner taking the Top Eliminator title in drag racing at the US Nationals beating Don Garlits in 1962. This was the height of the Pontiac Super Duty racing era before the GM racing ban in Jan 1963, I collect these HEMI Pontiac parts and engines and own the only known surviving original M/T HEMI Pontiac racing engine. Pontiac actually made a HEMI block, I own one. this was for the HEMI engine. more at Pontiac Heaven page and site.
Imagine one of these DOHC engines in an early 2nd generation Trans Am. Wouldn't be lightyears ahead, especially with fuel injection and, say, discs all round
There was the dynamics of "you cannot challenge Chevrolet". That went on all the way through the 1990's. RA V motors, could not challenge the BBC. Killed the Gran National because it challenged the Vette, and the same with the 1989 Firebird that had the GN motor and transmission in it. I had the magazine he is discussing and the later magazine with the RA V on the cover. It was always a dream and nothing more. Very little of these ideas or projects got out the back door. Milt Schornack was one of them that saw a little of this.
I find the DOHC engine's bank angle a very interesting feature since it clearly deviates from what you expect at a V8. Looks like approx. 120 degrees wich, combined with the valve train, makes for a low, yet very wide engine. Can anybody provide further information?
I think that it's just the cover over the cam belt that has that wide angle. If the lower of the two pulleys visible on the front of the engine is attached to the crankshaft, the angle of the V appears to be around the standard 90 degrees
The natural question would have to be: how much horsepower and torque, using gasoline with lead in it, did these engines realistically produce? The whole thing sounds like a fantasy (and no clear indication if these gee-whiz super-engines would have been something that ordinary repair garages would have been able to maintain; OHC engines of all types were reputed to be problematic, even in the 1980s) and it isn't at all clear that they would be practical for mass production, let alone mass use. It would be very interesting indeed if Pontiac had produced a DOHC, fuel-injected version of its Tempest Six that could go tow-to-toe with V8s of that era. I guess we will never know if such a motor would have enough power and torque to measure up.
I wonder if these ohc Detroit V8s might have been simply far more power than they thought was safe or usable on the street, and then they also knew emissions regulations were coming soon as well, so all that power would've been lost 😢 and also, being so high revving, they would've had less low rpm torque, making them slower off the line, but with much higher top speeds, scary with bias ply tires and drum brakes, requiring MUCH more overall investment, not to mention insurance companies were famously cracking down.
My 67 Firebird Convertible had the 6-cylinder overhead Motor sorry if anyone gets Made, they were Junk I had nothing but Problems from day one, I bought it Used 800 Buck back in 79 Guy told me Great running car, It seemed find for test drive, Driving home Started over heating Miss firing, own 8 months sold it. Had a great body,
For $12.50 and half a bottle of Bali HI wine, I baught a 65 Bonnie. 389/4 bbl auto...trunk was gone..THAT CAR WAS A SCREAMER ! easy 125 mph Oh...why did I get it so cheap, well, "I know what's wrong with it"...
It's sad that back in the 60's and 70's engines with simple carburetors could have so much power with little technology and be built for less. Now it takes thousands of dollars to give the same power with so much technology available and over priced cost. Give me back my carbureted engine and a low price to match. All these new cars need 15K engine to give you the same power the older cars came with from the factory. Car prices are off the charts
It would have been great if they would've produced them as long as they had a drivetrain that could handle it . That would have revolutionized the whole industry most likely. Do we have any idea of what kind of power they were producing.???
it's too bad GM didn't let the divisions compete to be the most performance division in GM. They wanted Chevy to be the performance division No matter what. Pontiac had some great engineering on their products.
Its amazing how much power modern engines can make and get much better mileage than these. Multiple turbos/Super chargers etc ofcourse but we have seem 600-700HP vehicles
Might make more sense to compare dyno charts on everything in N/A configuration with similar compression ratios. Much of modern engines' peak HP is due to the high RPM at which those peaks occur. The old carbureted engines are hard to beat for smooth, N/A low end torque.
@@johnz8210 Ok, sure. How about: Its amazing how well those old N/A carbureted engines made low end torque that newer engines haven't been able to improve upon, much. Engine management is great when its working correctly.
I some think some of the last glas were built in Mexico under license. BMW took them over partly because their production facilities but mostly to raid their excellent engineering staff.
Pontiac was one of the best automanufacteres of all time until EPA caused its demise, and others. Autos today are Gov. approved machines & nothing more.
Yes the engine and car have survived. I have been commissioned to repair and restore the engine. The car is being restored at the owners facility. The cam and follower system has issues. The problems are being adressed, new cams being made etc. If you are interested in following the project Adam, give me a call. Im in Michigan and easy to find. Scott Tiemann
Supercar Specialties
Thanks Scott ! I’d love to see more info on this unicorn. I knew someone had to know about these engines.
I knew it was around. The zip ties gave it away......😅
@@will7itsI also saw the zip ties and thought this has to be more recent photo, indicating it's still around. Glad to hear it is indeed being looked after.
That is awesome to hear! So glad to hear a rare piece of history is being saved! I'm not far from you over at Roush, where we do Ford prototypes. But I cannot get enough of the retro Pontiacs! My father used to run a 57 Vette with a 421 bored and stroked to 482 inches, 6-71 blower, mech. injection with ported heads, and a roller cam. In the 60's he'd run it down from Saginaw to the D using 3.08's and switch to 5.13 's for Woodward. He claimed to have put many factory cars back on their trailers and could dip into the high 9's at the strip. The Vette was stolen in 1974 when I was eight, but I remember it just barely. I distinctly remember holding a few old cams he had in the garage and seeing McKeller stamped on them! He sold the hardtop and hood when I was a teen, by then I was old enough to understand what happened to the car and what it had in it...along with a million stories about how he started with a 389 and everything that broke along the way. He did mention something about OHC's, but it's a bit fuzzy now after so many years.
do a video series!!
I had just turned 18. I had a 74 Monte Carlo. My cousin stopped by my apartment told me he was getting a divorce. He had a 68 Firebird Heavy Duty 455. He asked if I wanted to buy it do she couldn't get it. I said ABSOLUTELY! He said $500(1978). I went to the bank withdrew the money. I was saving for college. I thought s GTO would be an investment. I bought it and put it in my parents garage. I drove it to work. My wife (I married my high school sweetheart. I had it about a year. Drove it to work one day. I worked at a warehouse. A semi tractor/trailer turned in the wrong entrance. He turned to soon and ran over the back of the car. The car was totalled. But I pulled the motor though. It is sitting downstairs in my garage. I've been offered $10,000 for the motor. I was just presented with my 1st grandson. That motor is his!!! I'm 65 i hope im still here when he turns 16. I still have my Monte Carlo. I'm going to give it to him with that 455 HD under the hood!
Nah, sell it. He'll wrap that thing around a tree the first week. Dont want that on your conscience....
Ngl, I know 445 SD and H.O.s are expensive, but I'd heavily consider selling the engine itself to someone that needs it. Pontiac are so expensive to build and not as competitive compared to l.s. engines which will most likely be more readily available when your grandson turns 16 vs a engine produced between 1969-1976. Plus most kids ring the shit out of engines and destroy them and 455 are, expensive and rarer
Put it in a jet boat and enjoy it!!!
I’d sell it and put the money into a big block Chevy or something. It’s a cool story but swapping a Pontiac into a Chevy would be like swapping a 460 into a Dodge challenger- it just doesn’t make much sense.
Less than 3000 SD’s I think
My Buddy had a Lucie Blue '72 Trans Am... 455 H.O. 4 Speed. Back when the Shaker Hood Scoop was 100% functional. Nothing sounds quite like a properly tuned Pontiac V-8. The mid range torque was phenomenal.
Someone on the internet knew someone who's dads brothers neighbors coworker at a Hemi powered Polara station wagon with a 4 speed. Was one of those "special order vehicles." There was actually quite a few of them, or maybe it was that everyone on social media knew the same person whose dads brothers neighbors coworker owned a Hemi Polara.
Wow Adam, I had me a 1968 Firebird with the One bbl, 250 OHC, right before I finished H.S. I traded a '71 Datsun 510 Wagon for it. The guy was in H.S. married, and had children. He needed a wagon ,for his family, didn't need this car, the trade was good. That Firebird needed some SERIOUS/IMMEDIATE work. The master cylinder (if you pressed hard and quick you would have brakes for the moment), needed rebuilding. The throttle cable was mounted to the dash, like that of an old tractor. I immediately drove over to Lakeport Pontiac, bought a new accelerator cable, installed it. Instead of going to the Senior Prom, spent that day/evening at my friends dads shop, where I helped him do a head/valve job to it. Sold it in '82, before going into the USMC, and bought a beautiful 1975 Honda CB400F, SuperSport,, put 1000 miles on it, then went off, into boot camp ,in Oct.'82. Still have that motorcycle. Gonna sell it pretty soon
which has NOTHING to do with the topic. Stop the attention seeking. Get a hobby.
@@AdamWaffen Do you have a comprehension disability? I distinctly saw, "I had me a 1968 Firebird with the One bbl, 250 OHC," in his post. Get a life.
That quad cam V8 would have been amazing. I know in the ‘60s Mercedes was using Bosch D-Jetronic fuel injection. Used 8 electronic fuel injectors with a common fuel rail. Injectors were batch fired by a second set of points in the bottom of the distributor. If Pontiac was looking in to something similar, that would have been sweet!
D-jetronic was bought from bendix, they had the electrojector analog efi in 1957 used in rambler and some chryslers but failed and bendix sold the system to bosch which improved it further and created the d jet 10 years later
@@288gto7Huh, that’s very interesting. Pretty sweet they had that tech so long ago. But, as I’ve been learning, most modern engine innovations are actually quite old.
@@JohnEvans-ct6mz yeah a lot of the stuff goes waaay back in their origins. Also the biggest change with d jet was change to silicone based transistors rather than the germanium ones used in the electrojector
D-Jetronic was impressive at the time, but absolute garbage today - I can tell you as a classic Mercedes mechanic, that K-Jetronic is (still to this very day) the most reliable, dependable fuel delivery system ever invented, closely followed by Mercedes’s own proprietary fuel-injection system they developed (which is largely based on it).
It is my understanding that Bosch replaced the D-Jetronic EFI with L-Jetronic EFI. It still used pulsed electronic injectors. However, they replaced the pressure sensor with an airflow sensor. The early mass air engines used something the resembled a weather vane. L-Jetronic was installed in the early Datsun 280.
Adam, Fascinating, this is the first I have heard of a Pontiac V8 with overhead cams. If bolted to a Muncie wide ratio, 4 speed transmission and limited slip differential, they certainly could have made a spicy Safari wagon with one of those. 😁
Those OHC Pontiac V8s would've even give the 427 SOHC Cammer V8 a run for its money as well.
First car was a $50 '67 Pontiac Executive with the 400cid v8, turbo 400 trans to a 3.31 rear end, re-jetted carb, re-curved distributor and Thrush dual axhaust. Cook Co. sheriff radared me at 140mph southbound on Rt 45 towards I-80 in 1983. His Ford Fairmont never had a chance. Ahhhh, the good old days! 😃
Don't ya hate pulling over n having them tell you...why did pull over you were getting away
I remember my Dads 1969 Bonneville with a 428 and dual exhaust on a station wagon! As a fifth grader I remember calling my friend on a telephone to come over to see my Dads race car wagon, haha!!
My first new car was to have been a '67 Tempest with the Sprint OHC six, but I was diverted by a great deal on a Mustang. I still have that Hot Rod magazine with all the OHC Pontiac engines. Great episode.
From what I've read over the years, John DeLorean was the driving force behind that engine, the OHC 6, because of the high-revving 6 cylinders in Europe. The Sprint versions with a Quadrajet, and you could get it with a 4 speed, depending on the rear diff ratio, some guys have said the OHC 6 Sprint equipped cars performed pretty well (they'll rev to 7,000), while getting 24 mpg. Ahead of it's time
Love the old Pontiacs
Imagine the power curve of a Pontiac 455 with four cams and 32 valves. That easily could have been a 7000 RPM screamer.
Yes, call it “Captain Torque…”
Dad always drove a Pontiac, so that's what I mostly rode in growing up. Glad to learn of these great McKellar engines!
There was also the Infamous Pontiac 303 All Aluminum with Round Port heads, they make to compete in Trans am Racing with over 450 HP.
Also the Legendary Ram Air 5 400 Pontiac with over 500 HP also with Round Port heads, that was in the GTO a Rare Engine with less then 500 made.
I miss Pontiac so much!!~ They actually pushed GM when it came to performance, Sad, they did not keep the internal competition!!!~
Wow, I remember that cover, almost got me in trouble. I had that mag in my senior HS english class and my teacher balled me out for reading that "trash". I thought my dream job would be to work at Pontiac engine research. After getting my degree in Mechanical Engineering, I landed a job working at Ford engine research and had a lot of fun. Rotary engines, gas turbines, and did a lot of work on Direct Injection. Also saw Ford put the first computer in a car. I took up the whole back seat and we thought that was a crazy idea!
I remember first reading about these engines in the late 1980's. I was fascinated by them at the time, but the only OHC Pontiac engine I've ever seen in person is the OHC 6, It was in a 1968 Firebird. I almost walked past it at the car show before I realized what it was.
Back in the day the talk was that Pontiac was inspired by the very successful Jaguar XK 6 DOHC motor that was introduced in 1948. By 1961 the Jaguar XKE 6 was 3.8 liters/ 230 cubic inches and rated at an optimistic 265 brake horsepower. Regardless of the actual output, examples could reach 150 mph making it the World’s Fastest mass produced production car. The fact that Jaguar had won LeMans 5 times with this motor in the 1950’s gave it prestige and drove sales. Also notable was that the Jaguar XK 6 was much less expensive than other premium European power plants. This created the possibility of Pontiac building a production engine offering the same technology at an approachable price point. The rest of the car would be conventional and far cheaper to produce than the XKE body and chassis with its racing derived components.
I recall that the production Pontiac OHC 6 was plagued with camshaft failure issues. Does anyone know if the cam ran directly in the aluminum head, or was supported by replaceable bearing shells like the Jaguar design. KTM 790/890/ 901 twin cylinder motorcycles are currently suffering from premature camshaft failures. Apparently a lot of careful engineering is required to design the OHC system for reliability.
I thought it was jeep who had the ohc can failures
@@garthlundquist3623I think from reading my HPP & PE mags years ago, the camshaft didn't have a true bearing to ride in, but in the aluminum. And some had excessive wear like you wrote. The Jaguar XKE 6 cylinder, John DeLorean wanted to emulate that from what I recall, he was the driving force getting the OHC 6 built
Cams riding on cast aluminum heads is common. To make them last, having really frequent oil and filter changes is a must. Given what did tech not exist back in the 1960s, it would not surprise me if there was no way to make a cylinder head last, even if you changed the oil and filter ahead of schedule.
Some SOHC and DOHC engines still have durability problems. I do wonder what the causes can be.
As a side note, when that Jaguar engine was installed in the XK120, the 120 stood for a 120 mph...
Pontiac had the first tunnel ram manifold for the 421 motor. It had two AFB's. Another first was the "trap door carburetor" (three barrel) for their Nascar motors. Was banned. I think only thirteen were made. Yes, Pontiac had some great ideas. Too bad we did not see more of them!
Kaiser Willis had an O/H cam inline 6 in service at this time line Adam is speaking of. Tornado, I think, was the name.
Yes, it came in the Jeep Wagoneer and Gladiator and even the M715 military truck.
Adam does it again! Another first! Been a car guy all my life and never heard of the OHC V8s. Heard of the OHC 6s. In fact, knew a guy who had one many years ago but never heard of the 8s.
Though strangely, that magazine cover looks vaguely familiar, like something I might have seen lying around somewhere back in the day.
Kinda like the aluminum V-8s they made. I’m sure that story is online. Someone got one of the dozen or so Alcoa blocks, machined it and put it in a Lucerne blue trans am.
Very cool. I love hearing about the prototype engines and programs created in the 60s. Great video as always!
Gm made a 4 cylinder ohc with timing belt in the uk from 1967 too.
Indeed - the Vauxhall slant 4. Vauxhall initially also planned a V8 version of that engine using many of the same parts, but that never made it past the prototype stage.
In late 60s oldsmobile 442 was going to have dohc 32v v8 but that prpject got killed
Most people probably don’t know this, but the original 265 cubic inch Small Block Chevy was designed by the Pontiac Motor Division…
Another great lesson. Thanks for all the terrific research.
My brother had a tempest with the ohc 6 it was rather quick
Outstanding content Adam!!~ Bravo!!~
Thanks for doing a video on this. I'd heard of Oldmobile's attempts at four valve per cylinder engines, but not this, somehow. One additional guess as to why this was a no go is that at its top levels, at least, it would have meant spending more money on the suspension and brakes. I mean, 600 plus horsepower means you'd better provide the driver with a means to maintain control...
Bias ply and drum brakes at over 100 mph, no thanks 😂
My parents owned and drove Star Chief, Bonneville and Grand Ville models for 30 years. I grew up in the sixties when Pontiacs really were exciting.
We had a '68 Star Chief, 370 cu in and a 2 barrel. 4 speed Hydramatic.
@@alchrist5544 I didn't know that Pontiac ever had a 370cid engine. Was it downsized from their 389 or 421?
I think that Pontiac was ahead of the other GM divisions, as far as engine development goes. They could have justified the overhead cam engine, by allowing the other divisions to use it. Everyone would have benefited from it.
As much as I love old european engines - old Alpha Romeos, Jaguars, Lancias and Maseratis - I have to admit that the simplicity and purity of an american V8 block is fascinating. SO is it's history. Great vid.
Yes, I think that these advanced engines should have made it to production. It would be easier to adapt them to less emissions and still provide significant power.
I think the Firebird OHC 6 is a vehicle I would really like to own today.
Make mine dark green!
Pretty cool for the time.
The cylinder head on the OHC 6 cyl. looks not too efficient - crossflow is better.
GM retrofitted their 3.4 engine with OHC in the Monte Carlo 30 years later. They picked a wonderful place to relocate the alternator on those.
The OHC vs OHV debate is ongoing. Chevy's LS engines have disproved many myths about OHC engines being superior in every way.
Indeed. Chevrolet continues to develop its V8 from 1955.
@@johnz8210 ohv compared to dohc saving a lot of space and weight allows them to still run big displacement. Ls3 vs bmw s65 is great example. Ls3 is better than s65 on every metric
Crossflow is an advantage, but it depends on how it is executed. The most effective crossflow heads were a kind of hemi design. However, those tended to be much more expensive to build. Many cheaper crossflow heads were of the wedge or bathtub chamber heads. They didn't do all that much to improve performance.
Some of the carb engines were counterflow because it was easier to preheat the incoming air that way. It was no longer needed if there was multiport fuel injection.
The Datsun Z car was a counter flow SOHC engine. Racing teams had a prototype called an LZ head, which was crossflow. From what I read, the cost was not justifiable.
If they had continued R&D on these overhead cam engines. And changed their focus from power to efficiency. They probably wouldn't have taken long to produce them in mass quantities. I wonder if they tried to use this logic to get past the 'bean counters'.
If GM had been more focused on producing the best products instead of the highest profits. The 70s and 80s could've been so much better for them. And for us. I know not all 'bean counters' are single minded. But it seems that a lot are. Looks like GM needed more finance guys like Adam around. People who could keep the numbers straight without killing the cars
The fuel injection was mechanical and Mickey Thompson helped create it
Also don’t forget the Pontiac Hemi that was used in drag racing by Arnie tge Farmer and Mickey Thompson.
Micky Thompson also made hemi heads for Chevy and ford engines also
Or the 5 aluminum Pontiac 400 blocks they made. Saw a photo of a guy holding one, 90 lbs.
@@travislostaglia8861 yes he did, but the Pontiac was most widely used . Arnie is a friend of mine and still has a couple of the MT Pontiac Hemi’s
@@Sheisthedevilyouknowwho-ft9we I had one in 1980/1. You could carry it around by the front main. Had a magnesium Doug Nash intake manifold for the RA IV heads. It was a dyno manifold from Pontiac development, and had popsicle sticks in a couple of areas in the lower part of the plenum to help with fuel distribution. Manifold weighed nothing.
Thanks Adam!
Boy, that Hot Rod cover brought back memories. Those were great times when, as a kid, I'd wonder just what was ahead. Thank goodness for passionate engineers. Yes, the bean counters (Adam) have their role, but without passion, a car is just a machine with no personality.
Holden, General Motors Australian division in 1987 was up grading the 304 ci 5.0 litre V8 ( later 355ci 5.8L in its final form) and did exactly the same thing , put a single overhead cam on the V8 , it was a 3 valve design and came so close to production, there were 20 Holden VN Commadore,s fitted with the test engines and many pictures on line of the Holden 5.0L OHC motor . In the end they went with a conventional design and " Bunch Of Bananas " intake ( as they got called) that looks exactly like a production LS1 intake , but this was 10 years B4 the LS , the Holden had same port layout as LS , same chev bellhousing, same Delco engine management, infact if you look up a pic of a 1988 Holden 5.0 L Injected motor, it looks a lot like a LS1 . They were grate motors , roller cam , sequential injection in later ones , the last top version of the Holden V8 was in 1997 in the HSV Holden Commadore,s in 355 ci 5.8 L , it was changed to a 5.7 L LS1 the next year 1998 .
Excellent content Adam thanks!
My family bought a 67 Lemans in late 66. Clearly recall the OHC labeling not only on the engine, but on the front fenders too
And 2 + 2 emblems and stripes....
These engines, Olds W43 & anything Buick was cooking up after the Stage 1 were glorious. Then there's the Chrysler 444 😳
Many thanx for a GR8 vid. 👍👍
It is such a shame that The Big Three ended up killing off all of their innovation when it could have changed the way engines were built well up to now. OHC engines could have helped make the 1970s better, maybe still not great, but better. GM, in this case, could have used their OHC innovations to have made much more efficient engines right off the bat, and could have likely done a better job going toe-to-toe with the rest of the world in V8s, 6 cylinders and 4 cylinders. Instead, we got what we got, and innovation stayed slow even to this day.
The old magazine, High Performance Pontiac, showcased tons of innovations that Pontiac tried over the years. Despite all the GM tampering to stop racing development (well Chevy sure got away with a lot of racing), Pontiac made some crazy setups, knowing they couldn't use it in the end anyway.
Yeah, I've got a lot of HPP and PE mags, GM seemed to try to limit Pontiac to some degree, but not Chevy in those decades, according to guys that worked at Pontiac. A lot of innovative engineering they came up with, that the top people didn't want to approve, because the Corvette was at the other division. Super Duty 455 still got built though top guys at GM didn't really want to. From what I can remember reading, a lot of that came from work on the Nascar 366 engine, and Ram Air V, through the late '60s, early 70s, provision for dry sump oiling, the heads had some help from an outside company, if not AiResearch, something similarly named. Not an all-out racing engine, but it had a lot of those earmarks
An overhead cam Pontiac V8 is an interesting idea, but it is hard to imagine that it would have offered radically more power than the Super Duty heads did. Overhead valve engines have the advantage of less valve train mass allowing higher engine RPM. They also offer the ability of adding more valves per cylinder as mentioned, thus giving the heads greater flow ability. The third advantage they offer is to allow designing the ports in the head to flow more freely. At 389 cu in a Pontiac engine already had a lot of rotating mass and a valve train lightening would not have significantly increased the maximum RPM the engine could maintain. Pontiac engines were near square as far as bore x stroke, so the two large valves per cylinder they already had flowed about as much air as they could use in their max RPM range. As for improved runners, the SD heads showed that Pontiac was working on this idea for their normal push rod engines. The Super Duty engines really did a super job moving that air/fuel mixture into the cylinders. This research never made it into a Pontiac V8, but I have to believe it was of great influence as Chevy designed the Vega overhead cam engine. With the Vega engine, as GM had seen in the small Buick aluminum V8 15 years earlier, putting aluminum engines in the market that is dominated by people that do a poor job maintaining their vehicles is a recipe for disaster. Aluminum sealing up to iron will tend to develop leaks. If you are not regularly checking your engine, small leaks become big problems with low coolant and overheating, to warped heads or blown head gaskets.
Boy, that turned into a ramble.
That magazine he showed had a 302 chevy making 500 hp. No ohc or 4 valves needed and way easier and cheaper to fix and build.
overhead cams are great in their way, but they make the V8 a much larger package. Take a look at a 4.6 Ford at only 281 cubic inches and it's a huge lump. It works fine, but way big for the displacement.
"Overhead valve engines have the advantage of less valve train mass " Did you mean OHC?
Without rocker arms and push rods, OHC engines have considerably less valve train mass, and are noted for high rpm performance,
@@alchrist5544 yeah he probably meant that
@@alchrist5544 Yes indeed, I did mean over head cam engines, not overhead valve.
I knew about the OHC 6, but I was not aware that there were v8’s designed! The v8’s should have gone into production given the power and fuel efficiency capability.
Pontiac built some great cars with great power plants. Ironically, I read an article the other day about the Buick Grand National powered 89 Trans Am Pace Car. The article said the car was rejected by Pontiac purists who hated to see a Buick V-6 turbo under the hood. I kind of thought the article didn’t have much merit because by then Trans AMs and other Pontiacs were running Chevrolet motors (or lesser Buick V-6s). Anyway, a very interesting video.
It would have been COOL if Pontiac had kept that 6 going as a sporty alternative to the upcoming Buick 3.8 V6!
When I watch stuff like this it reminds me how old I am and it's getting depressing
Hot Rod ran a story within the last couple of years titledthe "Academic 303" about an engine project with REPCO in Australia where they designed a 303 ci SOHC V8 but went nowhere because a conventional head V8 of the same size had better power output. Neat little piece, you should check it out.
The Pontiac V-8 was bulletproof
Another great video Adam! Thank you! Correct me if I'm wrong wasn't John Deloren the head of the Pontiac division at that time? He himself was an innovator, wanted to revamp Pontiac entirely. He did. Was l told before he took over, Pontiac was known for being an "old person's " car and wanted to attract younger buyers with newer names, designs, high output engines,etc. He had brought with him his design team and the rest is history. Sometimes l thought there was an inner division rivalry between Pontiac and Chevrolet at that time, who could put the biggest engine in the smallest car kind of thing. With the horsepower wars heating up in the mid-60's he was in his "hay day" to him the sky was the limit and corporate politics. The engines in this video proved it. Too bad they didn't make it into production, just think what would have happened if they were. It probably would have changed the muscle car era.
It seems that my dad's 64 Bonneville had a 389 in it
I have had dealings with Pontiacs over my life. My dad had a '69 GTO when I was in grade school. Yellow w/black vinyl top, 400/4-speed car. One of the cars I learned to drive on was a 71 Pontiac Ventura 6 Cyl/ 3 on-the-tree (I actually took the test in a 66 Coupe De Ville, lol).
I myself have owned 4 Pontiacs, a '69 Firebird Convertible (350/Auto), 3 Fieros (yep 3). Based on all that, you might think I am a GM afficionado, however, I am all over the place on that stuff. I currently have 3 oldish Fords. Go figure
Shame that GM abandoned technology in the 1960's. Imagine if they hit the 70's with aluminum block, OHC, turbocharged, fuel injected engines to make decent power and fuel economy. I guess you can't argue with sales though....the OHC 6 was pricey compared to an equivalent power 389.
Thank you Adam. I think this video was quite interesting and educational. It is interesting Pontiac was doing this back in the 1960's. Just imagine would could have been. That is one of things the reorganization in the 1980's took away from this GM brands was doing things like this. This was not the only time they were innovative at Pontiac.
Aaron's fox fire trucks had a giant 6 cylinder engine that used two exhaust valves in one intake I believe it was a T head.
I have a factory FoMoCo, in-line 6, ohc, dated 1969. The head went to scrap. Its now making 450 NA. LSR is my game.
There was a time when Pontiac Built Excitement. Then for the last 30 years before the mercy kill, Pontiac Built Excretement.
I saw a small write up on the 421 front drive ohc it was called the street version it 10- 1 compression three twos and put out 470 hp I think at 6000 rpm I wish Pontiac would have released it I wish I could have remember where I read it.
6K with a rubber timing belt in a GM V8 would certainly lead to valve salad.
Driving an 8.1 2wd 2500 Suburban from LA to here to Rockford Illinois. Getting 14-17 mpg
It's really unfortunate that regulations killed off the performance aspect of auto makers back then. Would have been so cool to see where they would have gone with this design.
Do you have any idea why, when they made the half a v8 they chose the right rather than the left bank?
Most people drive alone, so it helps offset the weight of a single driver, like the MOPAR slant-6
I love Pontiac. Yes I have a 2009 Pontiac vibe GT the Taft Toyota however it’s still a General Motors vehicle. Long live Pontiac!
I had a SD 455 got at a junk yard for $100.00 someone painted over the SD 455 sticker.
Can you see the SOHC engine running up against the Ford in Nascar if they had allowed it?!
It’s my understanding DeLorean was behind the Pontiac six cylinder placed on the Firebirds
I've read about the Pontiac Sprints that had the overhead cam with the four-barrel and the GTO goodies but I've never seen one.
I had a OHC 6 4 bbl 3 speed in a 67 Lemans sprint con it had 4 piston disc brakes on front factory air and power steering basically everything GTO had except V8. Was a very fun car to drive revved up quick faster than people thought surprised a lot of V8s off the line
Sprint equipped coupes were fun to drive; lot's of grunt and very avant-garde. Fun thing to do with a Chev 250 core.
I'd seen pictures of the overhead cam straight 6 many times but never till today did I notice that the thermostat housing goes into the camcover...
That looks ominous to me...
That just goes straight down into the head. No water flows through the cam cover except to connect the head to the thermostat and neck.
@@hotpuppy1 That's not correct,, the thermostat housing IS part of the cam box/cover,,,, the cam cover gasket has an integral section that seals the thermostat inlet to the head and that's where the trouble lies....
If that fails coolant dumps right into the engine.
I did some sleuthing after I commented and having that gasket fail and getting coolant in the oil WAS and IS A THING.
Not a chronic problem apparently but it happens..
I KNEW I didn't like the looks of it.. lol
Hey Adam, that picture you're showing of that OHC engine at 2:55 has one of those early Quadrajets on it, very very similar to the one that's on your '66 Toronado. You can tell it's one of the first ones because it's got the arm connectig the secondary air doors to the fuel dampening mechanisim rather than the vacuum break dampener that came along in '67 when these things were redesigned. There is a lot of hate for those '65 & '66 Quadrajets! I wonder if thats the correct carb for that engine? I also have a '66 Toronado with that carb so I recognized it immediately. I'm gonna have to consult my Delco bible for this Pontiac engine to see what carb it is. I would guess it's a '66 model.
How about the 1978 TransAm with the 400 engine. I Had one and Loved it.
Jay Lenno has a pontiac with the OHC 6. Sprint spec
I would take a Pontiac V8 with overhead cams over a Pontiac with AC any day.... lol
Adam, where would people get the cam drivebelt today for a 60's Pontiac with the overhead cam six cylinder?
Kanter may still have them.
1st Polson (Missoula) Montana vacation view!
Nice video, informative. None of these were available or proven through, just concepts and ideas. Did you know- Pontiac had a real HEMI proven racing engine in 1962?! Mickey Thompson and Pontiac made HEMI engines at a time when chrysler did not! The HEMI Pontiac V8 was a proven winner taking the Top Eliminator title in drag racing at the US Nationals beating Don Garlits in 1962. This was the height of the Pontiac Super Duty racing era before the GM racing ban in Jan 1963, I collect these HEMI Pontiac parts and engines and own the only known surviving original M/T HEMI Pontiac racing engine. Pontiac actually made a HEMI block, I own one. this was for the HEMI engine. more at Pontiac Heaven page and site.
How on earth does Pontiac go to the effort to make an overhead camshaft cylinder head that isn’t flow-through?
Imagine one of these DOHC engines in an early 2nd generation Trans Am. Wouldn't be lightyears ahead, especially with fuel injection and, say, discs all round
There was the dynamics of "you cannot challenge Chevrolet". That went on all the way through the 1990's. RA V motors, could not challenge the BBC. Killed the Gran National because it challenged the Vette, and the same with the 1989 Firebird that had the GN motor and transmission in it. I had the magazine he is discussing and the later magazine with the RA V on the cover. It was always a dream and nothing more. Very little of these ideas or projects got out the back door. Milt Schornack was one of them that saw a little of this.
I find the DOHC engine's bank angle a very interesting feature since it clearly deviates from what you expect at a V8. Looks like approx. 120 degrees wich, combined with the valve train, makes for a low, yet very wide engine. Can anybody provide further information?
I believe these prototypes were all based on existing production blocks - so 90 degree bank angle using existing cross plane cranks.
I think that it's just the cover over the cam belt that has that wide angle. If the lower of the two pulleys visible on the front of the engine is attached to the crankshaft, the angle of the V appears to be around the standard 90 degrees
Fascinating.
I think if Pontiac would have produced the OHC v8 engines it would have saved the company continue into the 2k10s
The natural question would have to be: how much horsepower and torque, using gasoline with lead in it, did these engines realistically produce? The whole thing sounds like a fantasy (and no clear indication if these gee-whiz super-engines would have been something that ordinary repair garages would have been able to maintain; OHC engines of all types were reputed to be problematic, even in the 1980s) and it isn't at all clear that they would be practical for mass production, let alone mass use.
It would be very interesting indeed if Pontiac had produced a DOHC, fuel-injected version of its Tempest Six that could go tow-to-toe with V8s of that era. I guess we will never know if such a motor would have enough power and torque to measure up.
So cool!
I wonder if these ohc Detroit V8s might have been simply far more power than they thought was safe or usable on the street, and then they also knew emissions regulations were coming soon as well, so all that power would've been lost 😢 and also, being so high revving, they would've had less low rpm torque, making them slower off the line, but with much higher top speeds, scary with bias ply tires and drum brakes, requiring MUCH more overall investment, not to mention insurance companies were famously cracking down.
My 67 Firebird Convertible had the 6-cylinder overhead Motor sorry if anyone gets Made, they were Junk I had nothing but Problems from day one, I bought it Used 800 Buck back in 79 Guy told me Great running car, It seemed find for test drive, Driving home Started over heating Miss firing, own 8 months sold it. Had a great body,
For $12.50 and half a bottle of Bali HI wine, I baught a 65 Bonnie. 389/4 bbl auto...trunk was gone..THAT CAR WAS A SCREAMER ! easy 125 mph
Oh...why did I get it so cheap, well, "I know what's wrong with it"...
It's sad that back in the 60's and 70's engines with simple carburetors could have so much power with little technology and be built for less. Now it takes thousands of dollars to give the same power with so much technology available and over priced cost. Give me back my carbureted engine and a low price to match. All these new cars need 15K engine to give you the same power the older cars came with from the factory. Car prices are off the charts
It would have been great if they would've produced them as long as they had a drivetrain that could handle it . That would have revolutionized the whole industry most likely. Do we have any idea of what kind of power they were producing.???
I recently bought a 76 Grand Prix. How cool would it be to have the 428 or 455 SOHC under the hood, with a shaker?
Crazy bank angle on the dohc engine…
Dude!! Take 2 OHV 6 cylinder heads...do a very 12! ....hell yeah!! 😊
Research the Pontiac ram air five a real monster.
it's too bad GM didn't let the divisions compete to be the most performance division in GM. They wanted Chevy to be the performance division No matter what. Pontiac had some great engineering on their products.
Its amazing how much power modern engines can make and get much better mileage than these. Multiple turbos/Super chargers etc ofcourse but we have seem 600-700HP vehicles
Might make more sense to compare dyno charts on everything in N/A configuration with similar compression ratios. Much of modern engines' peak HP is due to the high RPM at which those peaks occur. The old carbureted engines are hard to beat for smooth, N/A low end torque.
Modern cylinder head and combustion chamber design, camshaft tech, plus engine management systems are vastly superior to what they had back then.
@@johnz8210 Ok, sure. How about:
Its amazing how well those old N/A carbureted engines made low end torque that newer engines haven't been able to improve upon, much.
Engine management is great when its working correctly.
@@johngalt97 What's an example of an old N/A carbureted engine that made great low end torque? I'm not familiar with them.
@@johnz8210 Most any v8? Even when choked with emissions controls in the 70’s they still had all the low end torque.
I think Glas was the first production car built with a timing belt.
It was
I some think some of the last glas were built in Mexico under license. BMW took them over partly because their production facilities but mostly to raid their excellent engineering staff.
Timing BELTS would have caused huge problems with these motor, I'm afraid.
Pontiac was one of the best automanufacteres of all time until EPA caused its demise, and others. Autos today are Gov. approved machines & nothing more.
New a girl in the 70s who had a late 60s firebird with the ohc inline 6.. it walked all over lots of v8 powered cars that is until she totaled the car