$$ Light Hyundai: P0133-O2 Sensor SLOW? (SUPER SATURDAY 2024!)
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- Опубликовано: 11 фев 2025
- Back in November of 2024 I drove 4 hours to Philadelphia for the
Annual Super Saturday 2024 Training Event!
midatlanticaca...
My good friend and mentor Keith DeFazio promised that the Training Seminars this year would NOT DISAPPOINT!
Gary Smith and Adam Robertson presented two FANTASTIC seminars:
"NETWORK NIGHTMARES: Solving the Diagnostic Distress"
and "DIAGNOSING GNARLY INTERMITTENT FAULTS"
After the Awesome Training event, I had two cars lined up to diagnose on the way back to Central PA.
The first one is a 2001 Hyundai Elantra with a persistent "P0133-Oxygen Sensor SLOW Response" code. 3 NEW O2 sensors have been tried with no improvement...
Let's see if we can pinpoint the root cause in the parking lot!
Turns out to be a FANTASTIC example of why you NEED an OSCILLOSCOPE to avoid being tricked by SLOW SCAN DATA :)
IVAN'S PICO WAVEFORMS:
drive.google.c...
Enjoy!
Ivan
The seminar reminded me of an old saying. It’s the things you learn after you know it all that really count.
True
You never know what you need to know.
You never stop learning no matter how old you are..your diagnosis skills are way above anyone I know…there are not many people that have the capability of diagnosing in a logical manner…you do autos..I did Sony cameras tv car stereo videos etc..I admire the way you think!😁😁
I have seen this very same issue already. Indeed injector volume difference. Swapped them around in the firing order so that ecu would accept the spray difference
I've also seen this same sensor pattern and slow response code from an exhaust leak, like a crack in the exhaust pipe. I saw it on a Mercedes V8 that turned out to have a cracked weld around the converter. It made no exhaust leak sounds and it was on the back side of the pipe where I couldn't easily see it. I remember because It cost me an O2 sensor after making the wrong call.
Thanks for sharing the seminar reviews. One of the strangest diagnosis I struggled with: signal crosstalk due to component lead frame corrosion. When condensation occurred the signals acted like a short (low impedance) causing faults. The root cause was a contaminant between neighboring pins of an IC; adding a little moisture (via cold spray condensation) caused a strong crosstalk and signal distortion.
"Let's get out the Pico and get raw!"
That's just got to be on the front of a t shirt Ivan, I mean you really got to lol. ✌️
Ah! PHAD for my coffee. I'm snowed in y'all!!! Well, probably not today. We don't get a lot of snow here generally, and Thursday and Friday it dumped 10" on us. We just aren't used to this shit. After 2 years in northern Japan, I detest snow. Just seeing it falling pisses me off. At least I have Ivan and Eric to keep me from getting bored too easily. Can't take being cooped up so Im gonna go down to my shop and put a blower switch and connector in a 1994 S-10 Blazer. If you've never done one, they are a PITA. Thanks Ivan for some interesting diagnostics to kill my boredom. ;)
@@farmermiyagi1338 now imagine being stuck in a snowstorm with Ivan and Eric?
@@ozzstars_cars Oh hell no! Pretty as I am, that could be dangerous. 🤣
I went out and oiled my flywheel I just put on. Waiting on a pressure plate bolt to finish, and put back in car. Carport was dry with nice white blanket around it.
Snow has said some things about you too.
10in?!? That's a dusting!
Regarding the Hyundai, watch out for the flexpipe on the exhaust, they split.
And could give this fault with the O2B1S1.
Sometimes when you show the parts kanon, I think back to my previous job were customer came and bought fuses for tv and radios, and came back to complain that the fuse went off with a flash, and there must be someting wrong with the fuse that we sold them. No there are nothing wrong with the fuse, we told you when you were here, that there is a cause for the fuse to blow.
Good video, i loved the scope to scan tool comparison, i wonder if the refresh rate would have been closer to the scope if there was less data pids selected, i have the same scantool
I'm certain it would have been. You need to cut the PIDs down to the bare minimum on these older cars if you want to capture good detail.
I love that they put "gnarly" on the cover of the manual. XD
I own a 07 accent and one thing I can tell you is when your Hyundai needs a sensor you better buy the Hyundai OEM or you will have problems because the resistance values are different, I learned the hard way on mine with the Purge Valve even though they are made by Bosch a Bosch sensor would not make the check engine light go out but the Hyundai OEM did!!!
Ivan, nice to see you out on the road. Hope you are getting your legs stretched a little. Good Luck! Thanks for Sharing! 🙃🙂
With the benefit of 20 years of hindsight, that era of Hyundai was probably the best. Simple fairly robust cars, sold at prices that undercut the competition.
Agreed, the pre GDI ones were pretty tough economy cars!
Absolutely correct, Grisha. The first Hyundai I ever remember seeing was a 1986 Hyundai Pony that a relative that lived in Canada owned. While you could hear the thing rust away, it was cockroach-tough. I think it was based on an old Mitsubishi design.
nice to see a pic of god aka keith defazio hope hes doing well miss his vids
If the response time of the sensor is slower than expected and you're in closed-loop control for fuel trims, the control system will oscillate. That seems to be what you're observing on the pico scope.
To really gain an appreciation for this effect, a course in feedback controls is essential. Control systems is a rich field of study and understanding, and even its fundamentals is essential for analyzing weird symptoms like the one you demonstrated in this video.
Love Gary’s classes. I sat in on his PWM/3 Phase motors and Networks classes and learned stuff I had never heard or been taught before in other classes.
I asked to film at a class, or do a video showing a few pages from the class since I was impressed, but the instructor said "absolutely not, it is copyrighted information." Made me a little sad that he thought he was the only one that knew how to diagnose and thought it was copyrighted. But rules are rules.
Good class Ivan, :).
Great video. Adam is a really smart guy and his classes are top notch. I love how excited he gets, you can feel his passion for what he does.
Good morning Mr Ivan, hope y'all have a wonderful day. Thank you for the great videos 😊
With older DLC protocols, you have to just look at O2 data. It is super slow and cannot handle that many PID's at once. These older systems also use this algorithm to test the catalyst efficiency. I will not only test the downstream sensor but also if someone is using a device to circumvent the catalyst system to fool the computer into thinking the system is functioning.
Nice video Ivan.
When we were reviewing the raw data from the pico scope, the signal was so noisy that it would be very difficult for any PCM to interpret that noisy signal correctly. Even if the software tries to derive an average from that really crazy noisy signal it’s not gonna be correct. I would recommend trying to find what’s causing that noise on the very high impedance unshielded oxygen sensor return signal and separate the wires away from stuff that’s going to cause signal problems.. I would keep going until I got a reasonably stable sine wave signal from that oxygen sensor. That sensor is reading a chemical reaction caused by control changes at the PCM. It should be a sign wave like we’re all used to seeing not the square wave with loads of noise as shown on the video.
Well, looks like at 18:21 you've got a legend to your right, Ivan. GREAT VIDEO!
Always need training.
The friend at the end on the far left looks like Doc from back to the future! Thanks for the video.
Denso sensor for the win. Bosch O2's are the Champion spark plugs of sensors meaning-I don't care if they were ever once used by OE, I'm not using either.
Years ago I bought a new 93 S-10 4x4 with the 4.3L. It had a Bosch O2 sensor in it from the factory. I was surprised to see that. I figured it would have an AC-Delco one.
@@Mr2004MCSS So, are are denso o2's good replacement for ford f150 OEM o2's?
@@erasmogonzales7428 If I couldn't get factory Ford ones I would probably try Denso but I always recommend OEM for sensors if at all possible.
Hope some day will be able to attend to seminars like that! Bosch is just picking up on network seminars here in Brazil.
I have also seen engines with high oil consumption, where heavy deposits have formed on the pistons, react more slowly to the leaning/enriching process.
Had a slow upstream sensor on my civic. would always have weird surging when the car was cold under acceleration. never paid it any mind until years later I finally got a code for it. replaced sensor with a new NTK and no longer had the surging.
Thanks again great video
TIL how an O2 sensor actually works. Thanks for reading out the code set criteria, Ivan
For the HEGO signal capture with the Picoscope it is best to use a Pico active differential probe like the TA041. Looking at the HEGO heater relative to battery negative is usually okay for a decent looking signal without noise. The injector flow rate has to be accurate across all injectors open loop. Perhaps the first fuel system check would be the fuel rail pressure, ideally the pressure across injectors (rail to manifold, which also tests the fuel regulator and pump flow capacity) which you can measure with two pressure transducers and a math function on the Picoscope.
@@windward2818 nothing wrong with fuel pressure... Fuel trims are near 0% 😉
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics As you know we may be looking at a slight shift in open loop fuel control, resulting in closed loop switching non-symmetry with sufficient delay to trigger the DTC.
I would normally trust the data as you have with the insight in how the system works, but not given the age of the vehicle. I have burned so many times in the past with underperforming pumps and regulators I tend to want to rule these out in the beginning. Then look at underperforming sensors (MAP) and actuators (Injectors), and finally an old CAT.
In other videos you have located a known good vehicle to use for comparison. This may be helpful in this case given the nuance in the failure mode.
My experience with the older systems is the fewer PIDs on the screen, the faster the update rate. I also would expect the OEM data stream to be much faster. Did you try it?
Hard diagnostic, Ivan! when things are quite close, it's hard to put the blame. Curious about the injector cleaning results - could be clean and still uneven.
Seems like you attended a densely packed network problems seminar (you already have your share of intermittent / weird network faults)
Thanks Ivan!
Thinking about that Hyundai, could we take control of the fueling by for example using a variable resistor on the Ect or Map sensor and seeing how the vehicle responds🤔🤔🤔 another item to consider (from experience) is an (in)audible exhaust leak before the O2 sensor...i have had this in the past...thanks Ivan.
That would be a tough mobile call to make without seeing a known good one. I can see why it would be good to have a vast inventory of known goods. Seminar looks fun. Guessing that is the company Keith is with? 👍👍🇺🇸
How does the O2-sensor after the catalytic converter influenced the loop back control? I have seen cars where a bad one shifts the adaption to the lean or rich side.
After seeing the scope but before seeing your diagnosis, my first thought is carbon on the intake valves, soaking the fuel in and releasing fuel, modulating the fuel inside the cylinder thus slowing the response from the O² sensor
It's a port injected engine so there shouldn't be significant carbon build up on the intake valves.
@@ferrumignis You are right about that, so I will counter with the thought of this car is 24 years old so the possibility of valve guide seals being not as good as they should be is possible could contribute to the possibility of carbon deposits. This may not be the answer but only a possibility.
Traffic jam- Roosevelt Blvd or 95? Welcome to NE Philly 😊
Actually I 81 near Harrisburg... Some dumb accident, they closed the entire highway! 😒
On the scope capture why did it not show it being rich when you were on the accelerator? But on the scanner it did?
Great video as always. Question, why was B1S2 always reading the .410 V? isnt that the biased voltage? Shouldn't that show some kind of change? Thanks!
I watched your 03 chevy fuae oanel (no start) video
Did you make those fuse panel, electrical, test light leads or did you pick them up somewhere.
I rigged up and soldered some gm headlight type sockets like you have, with 1157 bulbs, and long leads so i could hang them out the fender..
And tinned the leads to help them shove into the fuse sockets.
But was wondering what you were using to plug them into the undehood fuze blocks and the male/female plugs you were using to one handed plug things in.
I am troubleshooting an 02 z71 with same symptoms.
Old cars if you want faster data you have to check one parameter at a time cause that.
measuring the heater resistance at the connector, is about 3 ohms okay for a suabru o2 sensor, would it cause my heater circuit low code?
What is a HERM ??
If you have a failed or failing O2 sensor, replace it once and right. Pay the money for OEM. Amazon and most parts store O2 sensors will not fix the problem
ntk/ngk o2 sensors are pretty good, if not available, denso are next decent ones
Techron to the rescue! Ivan I know you slept through that entire CAN bus class. You need all the beauty sleep you can get! lol
Hey what's up Glenn! Happy new year! These seminars were super high energy and interactive! Plus Keith brought some Dunkin Donuts coffee... So no one was sleeping 😁👍😎
@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics donuts hand delivered by Keith? I would have been there had I know that! haha I missed out on the good stuff! Happy New Year. Wishing you a successful and prosperous year.
"diagnosing *gnarly* Intermittent faults" that ALONE is awesome and hilarious at the same time. any of your funky pico waves ever show up at those? also just had a surprise on my car...the shift position indicator light FINALLY started working for the first time. at the start of second year of ownership...I swear you'd have fun with this Juke for an ep :P
I would compare the map sensor data to the O2 data. That car tends to have wonky O2 reading íf the map sensor is off a bit.
That was mentioned in a OEM Hyundai service training i took in 03.
Looking at the engine controls primary fuel metering is speed density using a MAP sensor. How would you analyze the MAP sensor signal to determine if it had a set offset error? Is there a table containing the sensor transfer function relative to voltage out?
i remember years ago we used cross counts on sensors there was a data pid on OBD1 would tht be the same thing ? or is it a time factor percent of time it stays high verses time low minus counts
afaik after market part are usually junk, the problem is; assembly part contain factory secret and its no where close to original part. yet alone aftermarket part that only makes more problem pilling up as it operates.
Interesting. The parts canon is sort of the only way to work this diagnosis it seems. Of course there are different severities of the parts canon and a new, correct sensor plus clean injectors is not the worst thing for a 24 year old car.
Its interesting that for this vehicle, as seen on the Pico, the noise in the O2 sensor signal appeared to be both 1st order and 2nd order sine modulated. It was a consistent repeating pattern. Strange.
O2 sensor signals on a decent scope almost always look noisy and 'hairy'. You can improve the signal quality a little by using the o2 sensor ground instead of battery negative or turn on filtering. There is a lot of 'noise' in an engine bay that the scope will pick up.
Nyquist has entered the chat!
2 bottles of good fuel injector cleaner is what I would try.It's cheap and easy. They probably have never been cleaned or replaced.
I wonder if pulling the injectors out and cleaning them, change O rings,etc...... might stop that from throwing a code. Im curious lol.
What does H.E.R.M.stand for? Cheers Ivan looks like you had a great time.
Did the customer change injectors?
Did Mr.O make it down there?
NTK sensors are OE.
So where's all your buddies? No one else showed? I like when you guys work as a team every so often.
I would be tempted to put in some injector cleaner in the fuel tank, and take it for a 30 min highway run... and see if anything changes.
A good detective bro
Any chance you would copy those notebooks from class ? Gnarly and nightmares are definitely gonna be helpful
I no longer trust denso.. I have received ox sensor from my local store and they no longer have the name and part number stamped on it. I’m trying my luck with NTK.
Are these seminars streamed so they can be attended off site. Who would be best to contact to get on the schedule if they are
Those older Hyundai's are actually good cars. I'd replaced that O2 with an OEM and nothing else.
i use a cheap old scanner with a tiny screen that is fine for older cars. gives you the basic data live. you need to use your diag skills to find the faults. the car manufacturers could have done so much better but they are trying to save money on materials. thin wires , a lot of plastic etc.
So, Ivan what happen to the car ? What did the owner do to fix the 02??
Ivan you should be teaching the class
Maybe. But for Ivan to say this was the best training event he has been to means the calibre of the instructors and info presented was exceptional. What it means even the best in the field (Ivan and others attending) can learn new things. I am sure the interchange between the participants and the instructors would also have brought even more info to light. Goes to show we can also learn, no matter how much we have previously learnt or experienced. I am sure Ivan would second that. I have learnt heaps from Ivan and others of his calibre. Retired mechanic in Land Down Under.
IVAN does teach A class and it's this channel.. but he knows he doesn't know it all. That there's improved methods and new knowledge to be gained for those who seek it. That classroom looked pretty full so numbers of folks gain benefit...
BootCamp training...
Make sure you sleep well before and then eat a protein rich BOTH breakfast & lunch. Your mind will need this as BootCamps are very demanding. Caffeine can't hurt.
Some of the best learning I ever had and remember is when I was by myself and getting hands on by myself.
For example,
Like taking a scan tool like ivans and hooking it up and bringing up all the diagnostic screens and graphs and just playing around and watching and learning and then every chance you get hook it up again!
Keep going to a different info page and try that one and then maybe when you stop by a friends or parents house pop it in their car and go and look and watch then you got that friend with that beater car with the check engine lights on and it's Christmas tree dash,
so you throw it on his car and go to the graphs and see the differences you see what's different verses all the other cars you hooked it up to that had the same exact graphs now this one has completely different graphs in the problematic areas e t c e t c
Some of the best learning is the learning you can do on your own, on your own time, just playing around it watching listening basically learning...
how do i find classes like this in my area? SE MN
We need an Ivan in every state.
Never too many Ivans !!!
👍
How do you get to know about these seminars? I don't know of anything here in New Brunswick Canada
I wantna go to a super Saturday 😊
Where do you find these courses
No Eric O. from South Main Auto in attendance?
I thought at first the guy in front of you with the light colored baseball cap might be him 😆
Eric doesn't do training during hunting season lol! 😅
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics I think he just made a video recently on his wife killing a deer.
Hello, I notice you do a lot of wire poking, and you never show that you repair the holes in the wire insulation. Do you?
I’ll be honest: If I had an older car with 89k miles on the original O2 sensors, I, too, would have taken the parts-cannon approach and just changed both sensors before committing to a lot of diag time & effort. Yeah, in this case, it wouldn’t have worked.
HI IVAN ONE FOLLOWER HERE FROM MOROCOO THANK YOU FOR KNOLEDGE SHARING
The owner could drop 1 or 2 bottles of injector cleaner in the tank. See if that equalises the flow of the injectors.
I hope the owner will give an update.
After watching your channel for 2 years, I just realized that you have an XL-7 in PA just like me. 😂 I have 1 as a daily driver (278k miles) for my daughter to go back-n-forth to Alvernia. And 1 for parts that can not be sourced, stolen, extorted, begged for or borrowed. I love mine.
Looking like they wrote the book after watching your videos 😅
Every time I see traffic jams or drive in one, I am reminded why the UP of Michigan and Northern Wisconsin are so much better than the rest of the USA.
As long as you're not on the interstate or near a big city, traffic is rarely a problem 😅
Too bad there is no software tuning you can do to change how it reads.
I wouldn't be surprised if there's an injector issue, but not that easy to diagnose that in the field. However looking at the spark plugs could sometimes reveal if something is off with one injector.
A compression test is also something that can be done to see that all cylinders are in decent shape. One cylinder running lean could result in burnt valves (I have had that on a 5 cylinder Audi engine with K-jetronic) and then it's starting to get expensive. In that case it wasn't the injector but the fuel distributor that was off, but that could be tuned for each cylinder with an allen key.
Gidde up.
stick some Densos in it and tape up the money light....LOL
super slow saturday I got snow and my car wants to go slow, must be self protection
Damn? I thought you would be the one doing the lecture.
You can do injector drop tests without waiting for a new O2 sensor.
It's nice being in a room of like minded people. But, you could have taught the class!
First comment ❤❤❤❤
2024?...oh..this was recorded a bit ago
Ivan, you sound like a geophysicist?
Are you sure you're not a data analyst in your day job? :)