✅ Support Me in Making More Free Videos: warpacademy.com/membership-account/membership-plans/ ➤ ➤ ➤ This is a Series - Watch More Here: ruclips.net/p/PLsyXZjufQdPzmm46ecm0HBgSpLNqdeb9_ 💬 Which limiter surprised you the most? 🎵 What's your go-to limiter for aggressive electronic music? 🤔 Would you like to see more in-depth plugin comparisons? We also have an epic Discord server going on, very active with great discussion threads and tons of amazing people in the industry. ➤ ➤ ➤ Join Up! Hop on Our Discord Server ➤ discord.gg/ZwNgZteGKw Get Our Free Studio Design & Acoustics Course: warpacademy.com/free-studio-design-course/
Thanks mate! I always love your videos and refer to them often. Such amazing resources for the community. I included Ozone Maximizer here mainly on your recommendation. It was fun to use it again. All the best!
Great video, man! A lot of the tracks on Delta Heavy’s Midnight Forever album are hitting around -4 to -2 LUFS, I always wonder how they do it, so this video's super helpful. Another cool thing is Sub Focus-one of the biggest names in DnB-doesn’t use a mastering chain at all. He’s is famous in not believing in master chains it and just relies on clipping and other mixing techniques to hit -6 to -4 LUFS, which is pretty wild. Erb N Dub did a great video on loudness in DnB at DB Institute too, definitely worth checking out!
Hey hey. Thanks for the solid comment. And yes, as I'd mentioned in this video, I do most of the "mastering" work on my Sub-Mixes. I could absolutely turn out at -6 LUFS mix without hitting a mastering chain at all. And you're 100% right, that it involves lots of clipping on tracks, sub-mixes, saturation, limiting at various stages in the mix etc. This is the routing structure and template I use: ruclips.net/video/cnQC0146TZg/видео.html
Mix engineers have been using these techniques for years before CTZ became a thing. Using clippers on everything has been key in the drum and bass genre since FL studio came out 25 years ago. And using that type of SubMixing structure came from Luca Pretolesi, Grammy winning engineer. The CTZ approach collected everything into one place. And Baphometrix drew on things from other engineers, such as Luca and David Gnozzi. Like we all do. We all stand on the shoulders of those before us.
Great comparison! I'm glad you called out the high end sounding to "compressed" in IRC 4 Maximizer vs. Limitless. Every time I try IRC 4 I do not like what it does to the high end, but I haven't heard anyone else talk about that until now. I usually use Newfangled Elevate on my masters, which is a 26 band (!) limiter that I think doesn't get a lot of love because it is intimidating and you really have to learn to use that limiter to get the most out of it (like Limitless). Then I have Pro-L2 for when 26 bands is 25 too many. The last few vids featuring Limitless have made me curious about that one too though, if I were to describe its sound compared to everything else on offer here it would be "effortless", which is how I think most mastering processors should sound. I might have to pick up Limitless so I can try it for myself against Elevate. I think the rest of the single-band limiters sound perfectly competent with slight variations on their tonal balance. I'd rank Pro L-2 the best because it feels the punchiest, then IRC 3 because it has a really good tonal balance, but feels slightly overcooked in the upper midrange, and then Smart Limit I'd rank last just because it feels a bit too mid-forward with both the lows and highs rolled off and the whole track is lacking a bit of oomph compared to the other limiters. That said, if I only had one of these I could see sending any of these masters out to a client and them being happy, so no real losers here (except for hard clipping).
Amazing stuff mate. Really appreciate your comments. I take it you’re an engineer? Sounds like it. Yeah all good things to consider. I’ve had a ton of people recommend Elevate. I do have a dialogue going with Newfangled so I’ll reach out to them and see if I can set up Elevate in my next shootout. I want to try Master Plan as well. That’s one that’s been highly recommended too. Hope to see you around the channel. Join up on our Discord server too (link in the video description). Would be nice to have experienced folks like yourself there. Cheers!
@@warpacademy Thanks I consider all that such a compliment to hear. I work a day job in finance, picked up music production as a hobby many years ago and found I really have a knack for mixing/mastering over the last 5 years - Good enough that other artists I work with regularly want to pay me for my engineering, but I'm not planning on being a full time engineer any time soon. I jumped in the discord though fair warning I'm terrible at keeping up with that. I've been subbed here for a bit, so you should continue to see me around.
Ah right on. As far as I’m concerned if people are paying you to enginner their music then you’re free to call yourself an engineer. It’s nice to have those skills, as a lot of producers struggle to get clean mixes and stay objective. See you around the channel and maybe Discord ;)
Nice video man! As a musician I avoided mastering stuff so far. But tn the last years I'm really into live-techno/live-EDM, not shy of some DnB also. Therefore I am learning about sound synthesis rapidly and developing my skills on performing on machines with knobs and cables (and some keys), while used to acoustic pianos. I love it, but still I know too little about mixing stuff. I hear people talk about compressors and limiters, but never had the time to study them. This video is eye-opening for me ("it's basically a volume knob with a brain" did the trick). But for my knowledge: Are all these limiters software-based, I mean without a physical "box", other than a PC or Mac? Because I usually don't use much of DAW's or VST's. The problem is that I'm a computer nerd and a musician, but the two don't combine very well. My mindset when I'm on my PC is so different than when I'm improvising music. The former kills the creativity, the vibe, the flow of the latter. But anyway, recording stuff is also fun and necessary and eventually I have to be able to produce some shit. So, thnx again and BTW: I liked the sound of the Smart Limit the best in your loop, although I understand why you like the Limitless. I liked the movement of the bending bass a lot, there is a lot of life in there, solid but very manoeuvrable. More punchy also, but the Limitless sounds more transparent. I think it depends on the sort of music you want to make, which one I would choose. Are hardware-based limiters good/better/worse or just different (except from pricing ;) )?
Hey hey. Thanks for the comment. Yeah, I get you when it comes to being in flow. I think of it like this. If you're in creative mode, you're not thinking about things like compressors. You're just painting on a canvas and not being too heady. Then when you have the takes down, the art recorded, you put on your engineer hat and get analytical. That's when you use a limiter. A limiter is not part of the initial creative process, only in polishing what you did. In terms of hardware limiters, I wouldn't bother. Hardware limiters can never compete with modern software limiters IMO because, mainly of 1) Lookahead (this is an essential parameter that allows the limiter to sound clean and low-distortion, and hardware limiters do not have lookahead) 2) Modern limiters like smart:limit have the genre-specific machine learning profiles, which can dramatically improve your results by targeting the dynamics and envelope behaviour of a collection of music it's analyzed. Hope that makes sense. Cheer!
Neat content again thanks mate! I was wondering whats your typical output trim setting on a limiter when you are mastering for a streaming platform? -0.3?
Hey hey. It depends on the song and the other destinations it’s going to. If it’s for streaming only then I typically use True Peak level monitoring with a codec preview to sim the added lossy compression noise. Then I adjust my margin to accommodate that. Often it’s -1 dBTP or so at the limiter output. But for loud stuff that’s also going to be out on Beatport and played in wav by DJs then it’s totally different. I don’t use TPL. I’ll start with -0.1 dB margin in Limitless. Then I’ll run a codec sim (IE in Streamliner or Ozone) and then run that into a non-oversampled hard clipper to sim a bad converter and listen for distortion. Then adjust accordingly. I always used the codec preview in Ozone since it came out. Neat feature! But running this into a non oversampled hard clipper was a trick I learned more recently from Nicholas @panorama_mastering. Thanks for that Nicholas!
@@warpacademy Wow thats detailed answer I really appreciate! I thought the answer is going to be a simple number but apparently it seems I have to dig into this deeper. Your comment helped me a lot to do that thank you! You and Nicholas are my two favorites when it comes to educating myself in mastering. Keep it up guys!
Hey hey. Yeah nearly everything in audio is very situation specific and is deeper than you initially think. But as you’ve found, the info is out there now on RUclips. Nicholas is among the best sources around for sure. I’ve learned a ton from him as well. David Gnozzi from @mixbustv is definitely someone to follow as well. He’s the GOAT!
Im not trying to get tracks super loud, but at the end of my chain I’ve been using gold clip to shave maybe 1 dB (so as not to push limitless), Limitless with 3 bands doing not more than 1.5 dB, and then Smart limit to keep the True Peak under zero (and occasionally if I just want a tiny bit more level)… this has all seemed to work well for me. But I do see your advice about no longer needed to stack limiters these days, yet still spreading the load even further does seem to get good results. I do it more in the mix with my own songs as you say, but when mastering tracks for others it’s another story.
Hey hey. Thanks for sharing your process. It’s very similar for me. I use Gold Clip or Kraftur at the beginning of my mastering chain. End of chain is Limitless most often. I rarely do TPL but if I do then I’ll use another limiter behind that just with TPL engaged but zero extra gain. It makes no sense with modern limiters to “spread the load” of limiting. They’re already doing that internally. So by using a second limiter you’re just using unnecessary CPU and making it more likely that you’ll make a mistake that compromises your master by using two sets of timings and calculations. It’s especially not needed if you’re using a clipper before your limiter to take out micro transients. So I’d just stick with one limiter and make your process simpler and more efficient. And yeah if you’re doing TPL then it would make sense to run a second limiter last in chain and set it to TPL only but with no extra gain into the detection circuit.
@warpacademy do you use any non stock setting in the Advanced DSP - Transient Separation area of Limitless? I love Limitless as well and usually ping pong between Limitless & Ozone most of the time
Hey hey! Yes I sure do. It’s nice to have that level of control. There’s also a feature in there for the ISP to change from the ITU version with a second TPL limiter or just feeding the synthesized limiter output back into the main limiter calculations. Limitless and Ozone are both great platforms. Ozone obviously has lots more aspects when you’re using the other modules in the mothership.
Hey hey. Thanks mate. Oxford Sonnox, I hear good things but honestly I've never had a relationship with that company. If I keep getting requests for it, perhaps I'll reach out. Cheers!
Right on. I use Orange Clip and Gold Clip for my track and master clippers. They’re best in class. I’ve not used the Acustica stuff much. There was a memory leak in one of their plugins that caused huge resource usage and as of yet they haven’t addressed that. When that happens I pretty much stop using anything from that company.
I think it would be a better test if you use a tune with sub bass and a vocal, you would be able to really hear more subtle distortions on the vocal when the bass is happening at the same time. Also have you tried Newfangled Audios Elevate? its a 32 band multi limiter, would be good to compare to Limitles
I’d love to test out some other material. If you have a tune that’s suitable reach out. Id happy to use it in a test. And yea I do have Elevate. Although I have to admit I’ve not been using it. I’ve had so many comments asking for a test that I must put it in the lineup next. Cheers!
I produce dancefloor drum and bass and use FabFilter Pro-L 2 as my limiter of choice. I can typically achieve -3 RMS / -4 to -5 LUFS without any audible distortion resulting in a very clean sound. To manage the peaks, I place a clipper just before the limiter, allowing me to squeeze a few extra dB from the mix, however I’ve already frequency balanced prior to this and used clippers where necessary pre master. Could you clarify what is considered excessive gain reduction? I strive to avoid red gain reduction indicators, but this can be challenging with loud mixes. I often find myself balancing the mix and using clippers in an effort to achieve a sound with minimal gain reduction from the limiter. Equally, how much clipping is too much? I tend to use my ears and listen to how much I can clip before the clipper no longer sounds transparent, but introduces distortion, then pull back on the threshold. Once again, a great video from you - one of the best on RUclips. Silly Q but do you offer a mastering service ? Thanks 🙏🏼
Hey hey. Thanks for the support and the kind words. So, when working in loud genres like drum n bass, you should achieve most of the loudness on individual sounds with saturation, clipping, compression, dynamic EQ etc. Then route things into a Sub-Mixing structure like this: ruclips.net/video/cnQC0146TZg/видео.html. On your Sub-Mixes, you can experiment with more clipping, mid-side saturation, and/or limiting. Doing pretty light touches with these. If you do all of this, then your master is basically done and you need very little on the actual master. So when I say you don't want excessive gain reduction, I'd say 4 dB of gain reduction or more, on your mastering limiter, you're really going to start hearing that. You should try out iZotope RX and this technique too: ruclips.net/video/xzujAhDVg6w/видео.html. In terms of how much clipping is too much? It all depends on where clipping is used and the sound being clipped. If you're clipping your master, it better not be very much otherwise THIS happens: ruclips.net/video/0zTHis71jZI/видео.html&pp=ygUXbWl4YnVzdHYgY2xpcHBlciBtYXN0ZXI%3D Clip harder on your individual tracks, less on your Sub-Mixes, and only a little touch here and there on your master IMO. And yes, I do offer mastering services. You can contact me for that at vespers.ca/work-with-me/. Cheers!
Hi. Did you watch the Limitless section of this video? You pretty much just watched how I set it up for mastering. At least for loud, aggressive music. I also have a full Mastering Sessions Playlist where I use Limitless a lot for various types of genres: ruclips.net/p/PLsyXZjufQdPx4ITTwPhU6Bf_uxqXNHsxj
Excellent video as always - Have you tested Brainworx bx_limiter True Peak? or the 3 band lmiter from brainworx XL V3? Do you have any opinions on them?
Thanks very much! I use a lot of BX stuff but not those plugins yet. I do have a connection with them tho so perhaps I’ll see if I can test them out. Cheers!
It’s like you pulled up my own limiter list 😂. I also use Newfangled Elevate and am warming up to Master Plan as well. Elevate is maybe my favorite, neck and neck with Limitless. I usually put Elevate up as my first limiter for a little GR, and can rebalance any EQ and transients within the plugin, and finish with one of the others. I don’t think Pro L2 has beaten out Limitless or Smart:Limit so I don’t tend to reach for it anymore, but if I got something that seemed too wide, maybe that or ozone is just the ticket.
Hey hey. Great points. I've heard from a ton of people that they're liking Master Plan. I have it. I think I also have Elevate, so I'll have to start testing them more and more. So many limiters! It's nice to have options. Thanks for the comments!
Limitless seemed to lose a little girth, but the top end and snare sounded great. Ozone with the Vintage Limiter and some transient emphasis woulda been interesting to hear.
Oh, if you find Limitless is making the tune sound a bit less weighty, then all you do is turn down the Weighting control south of 0%. At -100% it'll optimize for bass rather than overall loudness. Cheers!
Great vid, thanks! Regarding the saturation knob in smart:limit, the manual doesn't go into great detail about what it does but the wording leads to the inference that it's adding harmonics. It doesn't mention upwards compression so I wondered where that idea comes from and why they wouldn't mention it? Apologies if you have covered this in another video. And thanks again!
Hey hey. Thanks for the comment! I agree that the manual is a little general about what each of those parameters do. Saturation is definitely being added, you can really hear it when I jack that parameter up. Saturation implies a louder signal and compression of dynamic range for sure. In terms of what I said about inflating low level material, similar to Sonnox Inflator, that was from a discussion I had with the Sonible team. Before I cover a plugin on my channel, I typically have a deep dive talk with the team behind the plugin and chat with their product specialist. I had not covered this in another video so it was good you asked. Cheers!
@@warpacademy that's good to know, thanks. I'm still reluctant to add saturation to a whole mix, prefering to add it on individual tracks if needed, but I have the luxury of stems!
Exactly. In general I avoid saturating the master if I have access to stems or tracks in the full mix. Much better to add it there, because of intermodulation.
How does DMG compares to newfangled elevate, which is also multiband? And also, do u know if DMG has blackfriday sales for november? Awesome video bro!!
Thanks! Newfangled Elevate, I'll have to search my plugins as I think I have that one. I have Saturate and Punctuate and like them. In general I love Newfangled stuff, their Mel scale approach is solid. DMG never does sales, ever. I thought they might, and I waited 2 years ha! Finally I just ponied up and spent the cash. Never looked back. They are 100% worth full pop retail, and they know it ;)
@@warpacademy hahahah gotcha bro! I think ill just have to take the shot then! Also, my current final limiter is "master plan", you should check it out too cus I think its awesome for agressive style music!
@@warpacademy DMG hands down best plugins in the game imho. No sales but they have a loyalty program where your discount grows the more you purchase. Start with the cheaper ones if you can, TrackLimit is a simpler single-band version of Limitless, too, but you don't necessarily have to buy it since Limitless can be set up the same way as TrackLimit & presets saved
Ah, that's nice you have Master Plan. I have it too. I'm actually about to work with the Musik Hack guys. They reached out recently, so stay tuned on the channel!
Exactly. Good points all round. I use and LOVE DMG Track limit. Many reasons to use it vs Limitless, starting with the fact that Limitless will eat your CPU for lunch if you use many instances of it. Did you see this video I did? I used TrackLimit a lot in it: ruclips.net/video/bj7ZNvmfRwA/видео.html. I also compared the CPU usage of TrackLimit with Orange Clip and Pro-L2 in this video: ruclips.net/video/Xf9gVOKa_U4/видео.html Cheers!
One thing I’ve noticed is Smart Limit sounds wider than all the others, so I tend to pair it with Limitless for DnB because the wideness still gets retained when using both for some reason.
Thanks for the insights! I've noticed that a lot of DnB producers tend to use 2 limiters on their master. That used to have a benefit, back in the day before these multi-stage modern limiters, but I would caution against that now. You will usually get a cleaner sound with a single limiter. If you need more gain reduction, try using clippers in your mix more, and a master clipper at the beginning of your mastering chain.
Not sure if it was due to the 78/Hard setting on Smart Limit (which I own and have used) but it, to me, seemed to have the most contrast vs the others during the listening tests. Wasn't a fan of how it sounded in this context. Something about the high end... I recently grabbed the demo of DMG after watching one of your older vids on limiting, and used it in a project for a friend. I did about 12 versions of his master (for fun, trying different plugins and chains) and really got into DMG. I own all of the limiters except DMG, and it's definitely my fav now (Smart Limit takes #2 spot), although the demo has now expired... 😢😢
Yes, and always before the limiter. I experiment with using the clipper first in chain, and just before the limiter, and usually I prefer the clipper to be first in chain.
One clarification here, linear phase filters DO cause pre-ringing. Why it works here and doesn't do that, is because its a cross-over filter, which has 2 of them back to back, and basically the effect of one is reversed by the other, and in the end you get no effect to the phase, and no pre-ringing. But it only works in case of crossover filters, this doesn't mean that you can just EQ your mix with a linear phase eq and get no pre-ringing, regardless of which eq you use.
Hey Alex. Yes, you're 100% right. All filters causing ringing, linear phase filters just break causality and shift the ringing earlier in time - so to speak. What I said is that it's possible to design them in a way that doesn't cause "horrible" super audible pre-ringing. IE you can design and window them in such a way that it's actually not very noticeable at all, depending on the program material to which they're applied. People get freaked out by watching contrived examples and I've so. many times had people say "never use a linear phase filter" in comments, meanwhile I've watched Luca Pretolesi - Grammy winning engineer - slap a brickwall HPF in linear phase in Pro-Q3 just below a kick drum fundamental and move on. Pre-ringing may be there, but is it audible? If it's audible, is it bad? You're also right that you can compensate for phase shifts with a reversed filter of the same design so I'm with you there. However, in practice, there are many examples of minimum phase crossovers that have phase rotation at the crossover points, so simply having reversed filters doesn't always "correct" time domain shifts. My thinking is that pre-ringing has to do with the Gibbs phenomenon, not whether a filter is linear phase or not right? The ringing is always going to happen I would think. I'm not a DSP guy though, so I'll defer to the experts. Are you involved in plugin design? Maybe you have an insight here. Cheers!
@@warpacademy Sure, if you really know what you are doing, you can definatelly find the use for linear phase EQs, but many, if not most, do not, and it is funny to me how the trend became from "linear phase eq is supperior/better quality", to "they are the devil and you should never use them". I am really enjoying your latest videos, maybe you can have one for multi-stage clipping. Do you clip busses as well, like in a clipper cascade, or just individual tracks?
Hey Alex. Yeah, you make a good point. You do really need to know what you're doing. And also, yeah, linear phase is not synonymous with "quality" - quite the opposite. Only use it when you must to maintain the time-domain, such as parallel EQ on bass or drums. Glad to hear you're enjoying the videos. Regarding multi-stage clipping, already done! Watch this video on my routing structure where I show my Sub-Mixing structure: ruclips.net/video/cnQC0146TZg/видео.html. And then watch this video for a full 2.5 hour mixing session where I show clipping on individual sounds, clipping on Sub-Mixes, and clipping the master: ruclips.net/video/bj7ZNvmfRwA/видео.html LMK if you have any questions after watching that. Cheers!
Listening thru Audeze Maxwell's, the Ozone created a bit more presence ("in your face") on IRC2. Possibly the spatial widening takes a little of that presence away? Choice would be more spatial vs more presence.
Thanks for the insights! If it's just presence, then that can be added / removed with EQ. Easy peasy. I'm mostly concerned with what's happening to the transients, stereo width, distortion, aliasing, release behaviour / pumping etc. How do you like the Maxwells? I love Audeze stuff. I use the LCD-5, MM-500, LCD-X & XC, and in cafes I use the Euclid IEMs. Cheers!
@@warpacademy With the Ozone, it seemed like there was a bit more transient response, which I was equating to more presence. The bass, especially the kick was more 'present' which might be representative of a better transient response. Ozone felt a little more 'in your face'. But this is a subjective area and to me, requires a bit of fettlementation to fit the song. As far as Audeze Maxwell's - I live in them pretty much all day long. Minimal ear fatigue and easy to switch between Teams calls, streaming music and reviewing tracks in Logic Pro or Ableton. Good choice for cost/benefit.
Im curious how you feel about toneboosters plugins that use hilbert transforms instead of oversampling for some settings. It introduces a global phase shift but as long as you dont run those settings in parallel its pretty damn clean
From my limited experience with them I think they might just be the most budget friendly competitor to fabfilter. They don't offer the exact same functionality, but it's close enough I feel like there isn't much reason to spend the money on fabfilter unless there's a specific function you need
I tested 15 limiters and Voxengo Elephant came out on top. Proviously was biased against but i switched it into black mode for the GUI now its the best looking and best performing limiter I've found with the cleanest results both on tonal and rhythmic material
Wow that’s quite the endorsement. Thanks for sharing! What kind of music are you mastering with it? And did you test it against Limitless or Newfangled Elevate?
@@warpacademy Yeah lol when Sage Audio endorsed this as the best limiter out there I almost laughed because the standard GUI is so bad that I thought Voxengo had nothing to offer, how wrong I was… I’m currently mastering cinematic, house and techno mostly. I gave them all an extreme test, in 2 rounds. Giving 24 db boost and see what they came up with… both on piano material and on drums, respectively. Someone else might have a more elegant test but mine was “just turn it up to 11!” :-p I have yet to try it with Elevate (and I must do that, thanks for the reminder) but I did try it with Limitless and the usual suspects Pro L2, Ozone, Smartlimit etc as well as masterplan, and others. - I found Ozone was very quick to distort, and the best algos were the first ones which ironically were released in the lite version of Ozone that I already had so getting the full version would have been a waste. Smartlimit remained largely distortion free because it seems to boost the release times so long that its causing a lot of pumping… And that was the trend overall it was all either too much distortion or too much pumping on all. Out of the box some others might beat Elephant in one round or another, but then you change the algo or tweak settings and you can probably beat it. Each of the algos on Elephant is more or less its own limiter, which is customizable in ways that other limiters aren’t. I’m giving a decent amount of gain to be at between 8 and 10 LUFS, and sometimes up to 6 LUFS. Limitless used to squash and distort when I give it this much gain but Elephant doesn’t. And I’ll flip between the algos and see which works best on the material. So far so good. And no one talks about it except for sage audio. (And and lol) no one talks about polysquasher at all and its a very transparent mastering compressor - I couldn’t really find a single youtube video about it. Secret weapon!
@@warpacademy Mastering cinematic stuff, house and techno. Yes I tried it against Limitless, smartlimit, ozone, masterplan and others. Most had a lot more distortion and others like smartlimit acheive the less distortion with long release times making for a pumping effect. I wanted to hear what the distortion was on extreme settings because thats the real test for me of what the algo can do. Elephant I tried only after Sage Audio endorsed it as the most advanced limiter out there, and with it you can mimic all other limiters because you can go ‘under the hood’ in ways that other limiters don’t allow. And those two extremes either of distortion or pumping effects was the lowest of all of them when I chose the right algo on Elephant. I tested it on tonal material and percussive material to hear what it does, and it gives things that boost more cleanly than anything else. Funny that no one talks about it and there are no videos on their mastering compressor Polysquasher either which is very solid too.
@@warpacademy I have tried limitless and indeed it's much better and more versatile than all the other limiters presented. Compared to Acustica Lace it's very close but Acustica sounds like it has more depth and a warmer sound. Both are very nice thought and good to have it in my arsenal.. Maybe u can also do a comparison
Great video. I noticed that when using a hard clipper you get extra low frequencies. A hard clipper before the limiter on the master; just reducing tiny peaks 0.5-1.0 dB is ok then ?
Thanks! And yes, that’s exactly what I was talking about and what David from MixbusTV discusses in the video I linked. It’s due to intermodulation. So if you use clipping (especially single band clipping) on the master then be very light with it and don’t dig into the RMS of the signal. Just clip super short micro transients. Cheers!
Thanks for the suggestion. I mean, I can answer that really quick here by pasting a post on Gearspace from Dave Gamble (from DMG) about the concept of Limitless. For reference, here's the post: Here goes: "Hi all, I've spent a long time thinking about multiband limiters, and why no-one likes them. There are two kinds of multiband limiters: multiband dynamics processors followed by a wideband limiter, and truly multiband limiters. Well... there was really only one truly multiband limiter, but now there's two. Waves L3 was groundbreaking... or, it should have been, but actually it's just really aggressive. I wanted a technical understanding of why I would consistently prefer L2 to L3. Sometime around august last year, I had an idea for the design of a multiband limiter - something to basically magic a set of gain-reduction signals into making a limited signal with the friendliest possible gain-reduction curves. I fully destroyed an A4 notepad with scribbling, ending up with a very chunky proof and something I could implement. Turns out, we don't like L3 because it *solves the wrong problem*. L3 tries to maximise gain at all costs. Don't do that; it makes s***** curves that impart distortion. Turns out (and here I'm somewhat giving the game away to anyone who wants to steal the idea) that the "right" strategy (based on weeks of listening tests) is to make the gain reduction curves as smooth as possible. If you stop worrying about maximal loudness and instead design for invisibility, then invisibility is what you get. Whilst for the same drive, you get a quieter result, the distortion is dramatically reduced. So you can drive harder and actually end up with a perceptually louder result. So, we built that and played with it loads and listened and listened and listened (to everything we could find, mastered or not). Then we found out that release really matters for limiters. I should expand on that. Obviously release is crucial, but there's more than one way to implement a release, and an infinity of ways to implement an autorelease. So, generally, you get one limiter to sort some peaks, with a fast release time (So you don't get dips in level after transients), and then maybe another one to flatten dynamics a little, and that one needs a slower release. There are a lot of limiters which have auto-releases which basically adjust the release time depending on whether they think they're seeing transients or dynamics. Aaaaand we listened. And it's a crapshoot. Some material works great with one, some with another, and it's always a bit of a compromise. So we had this idea we should basically just have two limiters that work together, to distribute the work between them. You get a dynamic limiter with configurable release time, which is in a "sane" range, like a few hundred ms, and a transient limiter with a configurable time which is a couple of ms at most. End result is, dynamics don't pay for transients, and everything still gets done. All multiband too! It's been a fun beta, and we're going to release on monday. If all goes well, we'll have a video introduction, and I might even make some videos explaining some concepts myself (though that's guaranteed to be weird). I'm going to invite some beta testers to pop up to help me explain things. Dave."
Limitless is cleaner and wider than the others (maybe not suitable for this particular track, do you agree?) and it sounds like the limiter I've always desired. L2 is snappier and crispier (I have it and I like it), Ozone is in between. I don't really like the others..
Hey hey. Thanks for the comment and insights. About Limitless, I actually prefer it in this case. Although I matched all the limiters, in truth, Limitless can be pushed harder and louder while still sounding acceptably clean. And with drum n bass, that's valuable. In terms of width, that's easily controlled with other means , such as attenuating the side channel, if you find Limitless is sounding "too wide". I mean, also, keep in mind that Limitless tends to accurately preserve the width in the mix, while Ozone and Pro-L2 alter the width by making the mix sound closed in in this case. Of course, the potential for loudness is not the only way to evaluate a limiter, and you've aptly pointed out there is a difference in the sound. The name of the game is carefully listening to the impact of the limiter on your master and evaluating if you like what it's doing compared to other limiters. All the best!
@@warpacademy It's not TOO wide. I like that it's wide because (as you said) even good limiters often slightly "suppress" the stereo image when you really push them so it's a good thing for me!
smart limit enforces upward compression under the hood, thereby manages to produce less distortion. But, this technique ends up lifting passages that are meant to be soft/relatively quiet to become obviously louder therefore altering the nature of the track itself.
Hey hey. Thanks for the comment. What are you basing that on? I don’t think that is correct. If you allow smart:limit to use the Saturate parameter then it will perform something like upwards compression except it’s not technically compression as it has no attack and release. It will inflate low level material, yes. But if Saturate is at zero then it functions as a traditional downwards limiter AFAIK. If you think otherwise please let me know where you heard that or if you’ve tested it. I’d be happy to check with their team too as I may be wrong.
@@warpacademy I used the default settings as i wanted just limiting and not alter the track in any which way like engaging saturation or affecting low end. This was part of a testing i had carried out way back, on the same material, that included all of the limiters you picked here. Also, another drawback of smart limit i noticed is that it consumes the same high CPU even when it is idle.
No love for the BX V2 limiter ? Or the Slate digital limiter .. the v2 they rolled out. Honorable mention.. any of the MELDA PRODUCTIONS limiters are insane .. stupid loud with little artifacts
Right on, thanks for the suggestions. I have my main tools that I use, but each producer is different. There are so many options out there, I've really like to hear people's suggestions here. All the best!
Oh man, DMG Limitless just destroyed all of them. There is nice movement, the soundstage is more open and wide, each element is held in place across the soundstage, it sounds smoother. Now to compare with the Elevate and Weiss products, also the IK Stealth Limiter which emulates the Weiss limiter
Thanks for the comments! And those are good recommendations. Elevate has been recommended a lot. I've reached out to Newfangled. Will do the same with IK and maybe Weiss. Cheers!
@@warpacademy Oh sorry, i didn't mean to suggest more work for you ! Please continue whatever you had planned to do. I am going to test for myself as i have the Weiss and DMG on demo and own the Elevate bundle. Great videos, thank you !
Oh nice! Post back and let us all know what you think when you test them. Also join up with us in Discord. We chat a lot about production there too: discord.gg/ZwNgZteGKw
When you get Elevate please see if you think it reduces the low end more than other Limiters, that’s my only beef with it. It has an EQ but I don’t want to be adding bass at that stage, I’d rather use a limiter that doesn’t do that.
Okay I got Elevate and will test. Regarding the bass attenuation, I love in Limitless how it has a Weighting control. This allows you to limit the bass less and you have full control with no EQ needed. I wonder if Elevate has some similar parameters.
@@warpacademy their loyalty program is pretty decent if you start with the cheaper plugins, plus things like TrackComp have compressor models for all the classics, so you don't have to download another free LA2A or 76 plugin ever again knowing DMG's model is the best
I love clippers and use them a ton. Did you see the section of the video where I talk about how I use clippers? I use them on the individual tracks first, sub-mixes / busses second, and only very, very carefully on the master. A huge mistake is using clippers to dig in very hard on the master, as you can see in that section of the video where I show K-Clip. Check out this video for how I use clippers all through a mix: ruclips.net/video/bj7ZNvmfRwA/видео.html Watch this video to see what I think about clippers in general: ruclips.net/video/YpbV0INpHgc/видео.html Watch this video if you think clipping your master hard is a good idea: www.youtube.com/watch? Cheers!
I wish you would have explained real quick what Channel linking is... Had to look it up, it treats mono/stereo loudness equally.... Please when you use terminology or mention a feature just give a 2 sentence description of it
Hey hey. I mean, I kind of did explain channel linking. Not sure if you saw the text box where I noted that unlinked limiters function like dual mono, where the L channel cannot induce gain reduction in the right. That's the explanation. When you have unlinked settings, you have 2 independent limiters for L and R. The way I do my videos is to focus on specific topics. Not each one is an exhaustive masterclass. This video is already 47 minutes long, can you imagine if I explained every piece of terminology and every feature? I cover as much ground as I can, but I often split up the lessons across multiple videos. In this case, I'm doing a full playlist series on limiters and rolling the videos out over time.
Thanks man. Yeah sometimes I miss explaining something in the video so I use the text boxes a lot in post. I realize how important it is to explain terminology but sometimes I goof and miss something. All the best and thanks for the kind words.
Side note; If you're making Heavy DnB, Don't be afraid to achieve louder results than -6 LUFS... Most Neuro/Dancefloor labels put out tracks that peak around -3 LUFS... This is why the mixdown stage is so important in modern bass music... So you can match other producers loudness without destroying your dynamics or distorting the track. Erb N Dub just put out a really cool series of videos on the topic if anyone out there is interested. Big ups man!
Hey hey. Thanks for the comment. Yes, I've seen the levels of loudness pushed in the genre. I always investigate claims that you can create a song and master it to -3 LUFS or louder and still have it sound "clean". I have never once heard a song that loud that I feel is loudness done well. It's always been a bit of a mess to my ears. I am open to changing my mind on this, so send examples please with links. Also, I'd love to check out the video series you mentioned. Link me to it? Cheers!
@@warpacademy Oh man... There are a few amazing Neurofunk producers that can push into -2 LUFS and sound absolutely amazing (Which I still wonder how tf they do it). Burr Oak, for example, have some of the cleanest and heaviest mixdowns in the genre at the moment: ruclips.net/video/YDtR1KYYGZM/видео.html Also Mefjus and Camo & Krooked - Sientelo is a masterpiece: ruclips.net/video/gOpAr0UiT6Q/видео.html The Erb n Dub video about loudness and mixdowns in DnB: ruclips.net/video/0n0HUQANlls/видео.html Hope you enjoy what I sent bro! Cheers!
Thanks for the links. Now, to preface my comments, I'm not in the slightest trying to insinuate that I'm a better producer or mixer than any of these guys. I'll make observations based on my personal taste and experience. The Burr Oak track, while impeccably produced, sounds fatiguing to listen to and the drums are paying the price for the loudness. Listen to it. Do you hear how quiet sounding, how pushed back, and rather small the drums are? That's what I hear in most songs pushed this loud. That's the sound of a master that's been squeezed hard into a limiter and personally, I don't like it. I think it's chasing loudness rather than mastering the song to what sounds the best. The Mefjus and Camo and Krooked tune sounds better to me. The drums have more impact and the tune feels a bit more dynamic. Mefjus is an inspiration. Top notch producer there. I wonder which version I would like more though if it was mastered a little less loud and then you A/B compared the two versions with loudness normalized. Doing that type of test is important. Some food for thought. Skrillex used to have his songs mastered to -4 LUFS (more or less). Now he's having them mastered to be less loud. Consider why that is? He's capable of extremely loud mixes and masters, so why would he back that off? More food for thought. His song Rumble won the 2024 Grammy for best electronic / dance recording with Flowdan and Fred Again. He didn't master it, it was Lucas Pretolesi from Studio DMI. Luca is the top mastering engineer (and mix engineer ) in the world, IMO, for electronic music, and the Grammys agree with that statement. He's the top tog. Guess what that song was mastered to in the drops? -6 LUFS. Why would the world's top electronic engineer master to that, when he could have pushed it to -2, -3? Thanks for the link to the videos on DnB. I'm stoked to check those out. Cheers!
@@whiskyngeets Drum&Bass is naturally a very loud genre of music. You can reach -2 LUFS and still maintain your dynamics and sound clean. Its all about your mix and gain staging, which is a lot easier said than done. Now, this may not apply to other genres such as House or Trap... But for DnB and Bass music, you need to be able to compete against other producers' mixdowns/levels.
RUclips does that just so ya know. I don’t control how many ads there are or where they are. And you can pay for a RUclips premium account to make things add free if you want.
I gave you the heads up at the beginning that I was going to use drum n bass. That’s the sound. If you don’t like that style don’t watch the video. I love this genre. And this is the style of music I mix and master.
✅ Support Me in Making More Free Videos: warpacademy.com/membership-account/membership-plans/
➤ ➤ ➤ This is a Series - Watch More Here: ruclips.net/p/PLsyXZjufQdPzmm46ecm0HBgSpLNqdeb9_
💬 Which limiter surprised you the most?
🎵 What's your go-to limiter for aggressive electronic music?
🤔 Would you like to see more in-depth plugin comparisons?
We also have an epic Discord server going on, very active with great discussion threads and tons of amazing people in the industry.
➤ ➤ ➤ Join Up! Hop on Our Discord Server ➤ discord.gg/ZwNgZteGKw
Get Our Free Studio Design & Acoustics Course: warpacademy.com/free-studio-design-course/
Amazing! Great work on this video and thanks for the shoutouts too!
Thanks mate! I always love your videos and refer to them often. Such amazing resources for the community. I included Ozone Maximizer here mainly on your recommendation. It was fun to use it again. All the best!
@@warpacademy Thanks mate! Also if you want to know what the IRC behind the hood is doing I've got a video on that too ;)
Oh sweet. I’d love to check that out. Link me to it?
@@warpacademy ruclips.net/video/Iyy6299yWkA/видео.htmlsi=JqVNNyJGTd97v4Q9
Thanks man! Will watch.
My heart is so full watching this. So proud of you and the work you're putting out into the world! You amaze me. Love you hubby!
Thanks for the love, my dear! I appreciate you supporting me to do this work.
Took me quite some time to also really learn Limitless, but after I did, I haven’t looked back. It’s a beast!
Thanks for the comment. Yeah it’s a deep plugin but you can’t argue with the results. It’s so clean and open.
Great video, man! A lot of the tracks on Delta Heavy’s Midnight Forever album are hitting around -4 to -2 LUFS, I always wonder how they do it, so this video's super helpful. Another cool thing is Sub Focus-one of the biggest names in DnB-doesn’t use a mastering chain at all. He’s is famous in not believing in master chains it and just relies on clipping and other mixing techniques to hit -6 to -4 LUFS, which is pretty wild. Erb N Dub did a great video on loudness in DnB at DB Institute too, definitely worth checking out!
Hey hey. Thanks for the solid comment. And yes, as I'd mentioned in this video, I do most of the "mastering" work on my Sub-Mixes. I could absolutely turn out at -6 LUFS mix without hitting a mastering chain at all. And you're 100% right, that it involves lots of clipping on tracks, sub-mixes, saturation, limiting at various stages in the mix etc.
This is the routing structure and template I use: ruclips.net/video/cnQC0146TZg/видео.html
That is ctz technique on a nutshell!
Mix engineers have been using these techniques for years before CTZ became a thing. Using clippers on everything has been key in the drum and bass genre since FL studio came out 25 years ago.
And using that type of SubMixing structure came from Luca Pretolesi, Grammy winning engineer.
The CTZ approach collected everything into one place. And Baphometrix drew on things from other engineers, such as Luca and David Gnozzi. Like we all do. We all stand on the shoulders of those before us.
@@warpacademy agree ! Just named it ctz bcz i couldnt find another term! I didnt want to atribute it to baph only!
Great comparison! I'm glad you called out the high end sounding to "compressed" in IRC 4 Maximizer vs. Limitless. Every time I try IRC 4 I do not like what it does to the high end, but I haven't heard anyone else talk about that until now. I usually use Newfangled Elevate on my masters, which is a 26 band (!) limiter that I think doesn't get a lot of love because it is intimidating and you really have to learn to use that limiter to get the most out of it (like Limitless). Then I have Pro-L2 for when 26 bands is 25 too many. The last few vids featuring Limitless have made me curious about that one too though, if I were to describe its sound compared to everything else on offer here it would be "effortless", which is how I think most mastering processors should sound. I might have to pick up Limitless so I can try it for myself against Elevate.
I think the rest of the single-band limiters sound perfectly competent with slight variations on their tonal balance. I'd rank Pro L-2 the best because it feels the punchiest, then IRC 3 because it has a really good tonal balance, but feels slightly overcooked in the upper midrange, and then Smart Limit I'd rank last just because it feels a bit too mid-forward with both the lows and highs rolled off and the whole track is lacking a bit of oomph compared to the other limiters. That said, if I only had one of these I could see sending any of these masters out to a client and them being happy, so no real losers here (except for hard clipping).
Amazing stuff mate. Really appreciate your comments. I take it you’re an engineer? Sounds like it.
Yeah all good things to consider. I’ve had a ton of people recommend Elevate. I do have a dialogue going with Newfangled so I’ll reach out to them and see if I can set up Elevate in my next shootout.
I want to try Master Plan as well. That’s one that’s been highly recommended too.
Hope to see you around the channel. Join up on our Discord server too (link in the video description). Would be nice to have experienced folks like yourself there. Cheers!
@@warpacademy Thanks I consider all that such a compliment to hear. I work a day job in finance, picked up music production as a hobby many years ago and found I really have a knack for mixing/mastering over the last 5 years - Good enough that other artists I work with regularly want to pay me for my engineering, but I'm not planning on being a full time engineer any time soon. I jumped in the discord though fair warning I'm terrible at keeping up with that. I've been subbed here for a bit, so you should continue to see me around.
Ah right on. As far as I’m concerned if people are paying you to enginner their music then you’re free to call yourself an engineer. It’s nice to have those skills, as a lot of producers struggle to get clean mixes and stay objective. See you around the channel and maybe Discord ;)
Useful video! Thanks for sharing!
Cheers! My pleasure. Thanks for stopping by the channel.
DMG just sounds fuller and better. More roundness in the low end. Damn.. Thanks for the Video.
Agreed. It's literally less compressed. The drums sound bigger too. Totally agree with you, things in general sound more round, weighty, and full.
Nice video man! As a musician I avoided mastering stuff so far. But tn the last years I'm really into live-techno/live-EDM, not shy of some DnB also. Therefore I am learning about sound synthesis rapidly and developing my skills on performing on machines with knobs and cables (and some keys), while used to acoustic pianos. I love it, but still I know too little about mixing stuff. I hear people talk about compressors and limiters, but never had the time to study them. This video is eye-opening for me ("it's basically a volume knob with a brain" did the trick).
But for my knowledge: Are all these limiters software-based, I mean without a physical "box", other than a PC or Mac? Because I usually don't use much of DAW's or VST's. The problem is that I'm a computer nerd and a musician, but the two don't combine very well. My mindset when I'm on my PC is so different than when I'm improvising music. The former kills the creativity, the vibe, the flow of the latter. But anyway, recording stuff is also fun and necessary and eventually I have to be able to produce some shit.
So, thnx again and BTW: I liked the sound of the Smart Limit the best in your loop, although I understand why you like the Limitless. I liked the movement of the bending bass a lot, there is a lot of life in there, solid but very manoeuvrable. More punchy also, but the Limitless sounds more transparent. I think it depends on the sort of music you want to make, which one I would choose.
Are hardware-based limiters good/better/worse or just different (except from pricing ;) )?
Hey hey. Thanks for the comment. Yeah, I get you when it comes to being in flow. I think of it like this. If you're in creative mode, you're not thinking about things like compressors. You're just painting on a canvas and not being too heady. Then when you have the takes down, the art recorded, you put on your engineer hat and get analytical. That's when you use a limiter. A limiter is not part of the initial creative process, only in polishing what you did.
In terms of hardware limiters, I wouldn't bother. Hardware limiters can never compete with modern software limiters IMO because, mainly of 1) Lookahead (this is an essential parameter that allows the limiter to sound clean and low-distortion, and hardware limiters do not have lookahead) 2) Modern limiters like smart:limit have the genre-specific machine learning profiles, which can dramatically improve your results by targeting the dynamics and envelope behaviour of a collection of music it's analyzed.
Hope that makes sense. Cheer!
TY BRO
Cheers! Thanks for watching.
Great video....thank you for answering questions i always had .what's your thoughts on ML8000 Advanced Limiter?
You're most welcome. I've never used that limiter. I've never heard of it actually. What interests you about it?
Killer vid 🤟
Thanks!
Neat content again thanks mate! I was wondering whats your typical output trim setting on a limiter when you are mastering for a streaming platform? -0.3?
Hey hey. It depends on the song and the other destinations it’s going to. If it’s for streaming only then I typically use True Peak level monitoring with a codec preview to sim the added lossy compression noise. Then I adjust my margin to accommodate that. Often it’s -1 dBTP or so at the limiter output.
But for loud stuff that’s also going to be out on Beatport and played in wav by DJs then it’s totally different. I don’t use TPL. I’ll start with -0.1 dB margin in Limitless.
Then I’ll run a codec sim (IE in Streamliner or Ozone) and then run that into a non-oversampled hard clipper to sim a bad converter and listen for distortion. Then adjust accordingly. I always used the codec preview in Ozone since it came out. Neat feature! But running this into a non oversampled hard clipper was a trick I learned more recently from Nicholas @panorama_mastering. Thanks for that Nicholas!
@@warpacademy Wow thats detailed answer I really appreciate! I thought the answer is going to be a simple number but apparently it seems I have to dig into this deeper. Your comment helped me a lot to do that thank you! You and Nicholas are my two favorites when it comes to educating myself in mastering. Keep it up guys!
Hey hey. Yeah nearly everything in audio is very situation specific and is deeper than you initially think. But as you’ve found, the info is out there now on RUclips. Nicholas is among the best sources around for sure. I’ve learned a ton from him as well. David Gnozzi from @mixbustv is definitely someone to follow as well. He’s the GOAT!
This is awesome, would be cool if you could do a general master setup for songs like these! PLS
Done! ruclips.net/video/YYmXlHawM-I/видео.html
Im not trying to get tracks super loud, but at the end of my chain I’ve been using gold clip to shave maybe 1 dB (so as not to push limitless), Limitless with 3 bands doing not more than 1.5 dB, and then Smart limit to keep the True Peak under zero (and occasionally if I just want a tiny bit more level)… this has all seemed to work well for me. But I do see your advice about no longer needed to stack limiters these days, yet still spreading the load even further does seem to get good results. I do it more in the mix with my own songs as you say, but when mastering tracks for others it’s another story.
Hey hey. Thanks for sharing your process. It’s very similar for me. I use Gold Clip or Kraftur at the beginning of my mastering chain. End of chain is Limitless most often. I rarely do TPL but if I do then I’ll use another limiter behind that just with TPL engaged but zero extra gain.
It makes no sense with modern limiters to “spread the load” of limiting. They’re already doing that internally. So by using a second limiter you’re just using unnecessary CPU and making it more likely that you’ll make a mistake that compromises your master by using two sets of timings and calculations.
It’s especially not needed if you’re using a clipper before your limiter to take out micro transients. So I’d just stick with one limiter and make your process simpler and more efficient.
And yeah if you’re doing TPL then it would make sense to run a second limiter last in chain and set it to TPL only but with no extra gain into the detection circuit.
@@warpacademy very helpful clarification! Thank you 🙏👊
Right on :)
@warpacademy do you use any non stock setting in the Advanced DSP - Transient Separation area of Limitless? I love Limitless as well and usually ping pong between Limitless & Ozone most of the time
Hey hey! Yes I sure do. It’s nice to have that level of control. There’s also a feature in there for the ISP to change from the ITU version with a second TPL limiter or just feeding the synthesized limiter output back into the main limiter calculations.
Limitless and Ozone are both great platforms. Ozone obviously has lots more aspects when you’re using the other modules in the mothership.
Great work
Still liking limitless
Thoughts on Oxford sonnox
Is it not in your top 5 limiters?
Hey hey. Thanks mate. Oxford Sonnox, I hear good things but honestly I've never had a relationship with that company. If I keep getting requests for it, perhaps I'll reach out. Cheers!
Nice will try that limetless limiter out🔥💯 what are your thoughts on accustica Fire the clip?
Right on. I use Orange Clip and Gold Clip for my track and master clippers. They’re best in class. I’ve not used the Acustica stuff much. There was a memory leak in one of their plugins that caused huge resource usage and as of yet they haven’t addressed that. When that happens I pretty much stop using anything from that company.
@warpacademy thanks will take a look at orange clip and gold clip👍🏾
Definitely worth it.
I think it would be a better test if you use a tune with sub bass and a vocal, you would be able to really hear more subtle distortions on the vocal when the bass is happening at the same time.
Also have you tried Newfangled Audios Elevate? its a 32 band multi limiter, would be good to compare to Limitles
I’d love to test out some other material. If you have a tune that’s suitable reach out. Id happy to use it in a test.
And yea I do have Elevate. Although I have to admit I’ve not been using it. I’ve had so many comments asking for a test that I must put it in the lineup next. Cheers!
Thanks- Best/Mathias
Cheers mate!
I produce dancefloor drum and bass and use FabFilter Pro-L 2 as my limiter of choice. I can typically achieve -3 RMS / -4 to -5 LUFS without any audible distortion resulting in a very clean sound.
To manage the peaks, I place a clipper just before the limiter, allowing me to squeeze a few extra dB from the mix, however I’ve already frequency balanced prior to this and used clippers where necessary pre master.
Could you clarify what is considered excessive gain reduction? I strive to avoid red gain reduction indicators, but this can be challenging with loud mixes. I often find myself balancing the mix and using clippers in an effort to achieve a sound with minimal gain reduction from the limiter. Equally, how much clipping is too much? I tend to use my ears and listen to how much I can clip before the clipper no longer sounds transparent, but introduces distortion, then pull back on the threshold.
Once again, a great video from you - one of the best on RUclips.
Silly Q but do you offer a mastering service ?
Thanks 🙏🏼
Hey hey. Thanks for the support and the kind words. So, when working in loud genres like drum n bass, you should achieve most of the loudness on individual sounds with saturation, clipping, compression, dynamic EQ etc. Then route things into a Sub-Mixing structure like this: ruclips.net/video/cnQC0146TZg/видео.html.
On your Sub-Mixes, you can experiment with more clipping, mid-side saturation, and/or limiting. Doing pretty light touches with these. If you do all of this, then your master is basically done and you need very little on the actual master.
So when I say you don't want excessive gain reduction, I'd say 4 dB of gain reduction or more, on your mastering limiter, you're really going to start hearing that. You should try out iZotope RX and this technique too: ruclips.net/video/xzujAhDVg6w/видео.html.
In terms of how much clipping is too much? It all depends on where clipping is used and the sound being clipped. If you're clipping your master, it better not be very much otherwise THIS happens: ruclips.net/video/0zTHis71jZI/видео.html&pp=ygUXbWl4YnVzdHYgY2xpcHBlciBtYXN0ZXI%3D Clip harder on your individual tracks, less on your Sub-Mixes, and only a little touch here and there on your master IMO.
And yes, I do offer mastering services. You can contact me for that at vespers.ca/work-with-me/. Cheers!
Hello, Thanks for the vid. Do you have a vid on how to set up limitless for mastering?
Hi. Did you watch the Limitless section of this video? You pretty much just watched how I set it up for mastering. At least for loud, aggressive music. I also have a full Mastering Sessions Playlist where I use Limitless a lot for various types of genres: ruclips.net/p/PLsyXZjufQdPx4ITTwPhU6Bf_uxqXNHsxj
Excellent video as always - Have you tested Brainworx bx_limiter True Peak? or the 3 band lmiter from brainworx XL V3? Do you have any opinions on them?
Thanks very much! I use a lot of BX stuff but not those plugins yet. I do have a connection with them tho so perhaps I’ll see if I can test them out. Cheers!
@@warpacademy that would be great! Their new upgraded versions of these plugins look interesting
It’s like you pulled up my own limiter list 😂. I also use Newfangled Elevate and am warming up to Master Plan as well. Elevate is maybe my favorite, neck and neck with Limitless. I usually put Elevate up as my first limiter for a little GR, and can rebalance any EQ and transients within the plugin, and finish with one of the others.
I don’t think Pro L2 has beaten out Limitless or Smart:Limit so I don’t tend to reach for it anymore, but if I got something that seemed too wide, maybe that or ozone is just the ticket.
Hey hey. Great points. I've heard from a ton of people that they're liking Master Plan. I have it. I think I also have Elevate, so I'll have to start testing them more and more. So many limiters! It's nice to have options. Thanks for the comments!
Limitless seemed to lose a little girth, but the top end and snare sounded great. Ozone with the Vintage Limiter and some transient emphasis woulda been interesting to hear.
Oh, if you find Limitless is making the tune sound a bit less weighty, then all you do is turn down the Weighting control south of 0%. At -100% it'll optimize for bass rather than overall loudness. Cheers!
Thank you!
You bet! Thanks for being a subscriber.
Great vid, thanks! Regarding the saturation knob in smart:limit, the manual doesn't go into great detail about what it does but the wording leads to the inference that it's adding harmonics. It doesn't mention upwards compression so I wondered where that idea comes from and why they wouldn't mention it? Apologies if you have covered this in another video. And thanks again!
Hey hey. Thanks for the comment! I agree that the manual is a little general about what each of those parameters do. Saturation is definitely being added, you can really hear it when I jack that parameter up. Saturation implies a louder signal and compression of dynamic range for sure.
In terms of what I said about inflating low level material, similar to Sonnox Inflator, that was from a discussion I had with the Sonible team. Before I cover a plugin on my channel, I typically have a deep dive talk with the team behind the plugin and chat with their product specialist.
I had not covered this in another video so it was good you asked. Cheers!
@@warpacademy that's good to know, thanks. I'm still reluctant to add saturation to a whole mix, prefering to add it on individual tracks if needed, but I have the luxury of stems!
Exactly. In general I avoid saturating the master if I have access to stems or tracks in the full mix. Much better to add it there, because of intermodulation.
How does DMG compares to newfangled elevate, which is also multiband? And also, do u know if DMG has blackfriday sales for november? Awesome video bro!!
Thanks! Newfangled Elevate, I'll have to search my plugins as I think I have that one. I have Saturate and Punctuate and like them. In general I love Newfangled stuff, their Mel scale approach is solid.
DMG never does sales, ever. I thought they might, and I waited 2 years ha! Finally I just ponied up and spent the cash. Never looked back. They are 100% worth full pop retail, and they know it ;)
@@warpacademy hahahah gotcha bro! I think ill just have to take the shot then! Also, my current final limiter is "master plan", you should check it out too cus I think its awesome for agressive style music!
@@warpacademy DMG hands down best plugins in the game imho. No sales but they have a loyalty program where your discount grows the more you purchase. Start with the cheaper ones if you can, TrackLimit is a simpler single-band version of Limitless, too, but you don't necessarily have to buy it since Limitless can be set up the same way as TrackLimit & presets saved
Ah, that's nice you have Master Plan. I have it too. I'm actually about to work with the Musik Hack guys. They reached out recently, so stay tuned on the channel!
Exactly. Good points all round. I use and LOVE DMG Track limit. Many reasons to use it vs Limitless, starting with the fact that Limitless will eat your CPU for lunch if you use many instances of it.
Did you see this video I did? I used TrackLimit a lot in it: ruclips.net/video/bj7ZNvmfRwA/видео.html.
I also compared the CPU usage of TrackLimit with Orange Clip and Pro-L2 in this video: ruclips.net/video/Xf9gVOKa_U4/видео.html
Cheers!
Hey man, do you have experience on the Brainworks true peak limiter and/or the Weiss maximizer? Any thoughts on them?
I haven't used either, but I always like suggestions. Thanks!
Good video. Can we see stealth limiter vs invisible vs smart vs limitless ?) Voxengo Elephant too. Thanks
I love stealth limiter on EDM and Hybrid music:)
Good suggestions! I'm interested in the Invisible Limiter and Stealth Limiter myself. I may see if I can line up that comparison. Cheers!
One thing I’ve noticed is Smart Limit sounds wider than all the others, so I tend to pair it with Limitless for DnB because the wideness still gets retained when using both for some reason.
Thanks for the insights! I've noticed that a lot of DnB producers tend to use 2 limiters on their master. That used to have a benefit, back in the day before these multi-stage modern limiters, but I would caution against that now. You will usually get a cleaner sound with a single limiter. If you need more gain reduction, try using clippers in your mix more, and a master clipper at the beginning of your mastering chain.
Not sure if it was due to the 78/Hard setting on Smart Limit (which I own and have used) but it, to me, seemed to have the most contrast vs the others during the listening tests. Wasn't a fan of how it sounded in this context. Something about the high end...
I recently grabbed the demo of DMG after watching one of your older vids on limiting, and used it in a project for a friend. I did about 12 versions of his master (for fun, trying different plugins and chains) and really got into DMG. I own all of the limiters except DMG, and it's definitely my fav now (Smart Limit takes #2 spot), although the demo has now expired... 😢😢
Thanks for sharing your experience, especially with the DMG limiter and smart:limit, glad you're digging it!
Do u like to hit a clipper before or after a limiters on the 2 bus ?
Yes, and always before the limiter. I experiment with using the clipper first in chain, and just before the limiter, and usually I prefer the clipper to be first in chain.
One clarification here, linear phase filters DO cause pre-ringing. Why it works here and doesn't do that, is because its a cross-over filter, which has 2 of them back to back, and basically the effect of one is reversed by the other, and in the end you get no effect to the phase, and no pre-ringing.
But it only works in case of crossover filters, this doesn't mean that you can just EQ your mix with a linear phase eq and get no pre-ringing, regardless of which eq you use.
Hey Alex. Yes, you're 100% right. All filters causing ringing, linear phase filters just break causality and shift the ringing earlier in time - so to speak. What I said is that it's possible to design them in a way that doesn't cause "horrible" super audible pre-ringing. IE you can design and window them in such a way that it's actually not very noticeable at all, depending on the program material to which they're applied.
People get freaked out by watching contrived examples and I've so. many times had people say "never use a linear phase filter" in comments, meanwhile I've watched Luca Pretolesi - Grammy winning engineer - slap a brickwall HPF in linear phase in Pro-Q3 just below a kick drum fundamental and move on. Pre-ringing may be there, but is it audible? If it's audible, is it bad?
You're also right that you can compensate for phase shifts with a reversed filter of the same design so I'm with you there. However, in practice, there are many examples of minimum phase crossovers that have phase rotation at the crossover points, so simply having reversed filters doesn't always "correct" time domain shifts.
My thinking is that pre-ringing has to do with the Gibbs phenomenon, not whether a filter is linear phase or not right? The ringing is always going to happen I would think. I'm not a DSP guy though, so I'll defer to the experts.
Are you involved in plugin design? Maybe you have an insight here. Cheers!
@@warpacademy Sure, if you really know what you are doing, you can definatelly find the use for linear phase EQs, but many, if not most, do not, and it is funny to me how the trend became from "linear phase eq is supperior/better quality", to "they are the devil and you should never use them".
I am really enjoying your latest videos, maybe you can have one for multi-stage clipping. Do you clip busses as well, like in a clipper cascade, or just individual tracks?
Hey Alex. Yeah, you make a good point. You do really need to know what you're doing. And also, yeah, linear phase is not synonymous with "quality" - quite the opposite. Only use it when you must to maintain the time-domain, such as parallel EQ on bass or drums.
Glad to hear you're enjoying the videos. Regarding multi-stage clipping, already done! Watch this video on my routing structure where I show my Sub-Mixing structure: ruclips.net/video/cnQC0146TZg/видео.html.
And then watch this video for a full 2.5 hour mixing session where I show clipping on individual sounds, clipping on Sub-Mixes, and clipping the master: ruclips.net/video/bj7ZNvmfRwA/видео.html
LMK if you have any questions after watching that. Cheers!
Listening thru Audeze Maxwell's, the Ozone created a bit more presence ("in your face") on IRC2. Possibly the spatial widening takes a little of that presence away? Choice would be more spatial vs more presence.
Thanks for the insights! If it's just presence, then that can be added / removed with EQ. Easy peasy. I'm mostly concerned with what's happening to the transients, stereo width, distortion, aliasing, release behaviour / pumping etc. How do you like the Maxwells? I love Audeze stuff. I use the LCD-5, MM-500, LCD-X & XC, and in cafes I use the Euclid IEMs. Cheers!
@@warpacademy With the Ozone, it seemed like there was a bit more transient response, which I was equating to more presence. The bass, especially the kick was more 'present' which might be representative of a better transient response. Ozone felt a little more 'in your face'. But this is a subjective area and to me, requires a bit of fettlementation to fit the song. As far as Audeze Maxwell's - I live in them pretty much all day long. Minimal ear fatigue and easy to switch between Teams calls, streaming music and reviewing tracks in Logic Pro or Ableton. Good choice for cost/benefit.
Nice one. Thanks for the share. Cheers!
Im curious how you feel about toneboosters plugins that use hilbert transforms instead of oversampling for some settings. It introduces a global phase shift but as long as you dont run those settings in parallel its pretty damn clean
I have not used much Toneboosters stuff at all. Perhaps I'll check it out. Cheers!
From my limited experience with them I think they might just be the most budget friendly competitor to fabfilter. They don't offer the exact same functionality, but it's close enough I feel like there isn't much reason to spend the money on fabfilter unless there's a specific function you need
Nice. Thanks for the tip!
I tested 15 limiters and Voxengo Elephant came out on top. Proviously was biased against but i switched it into black mode for the GUI now its the best looking and best performing limiter I've found with the cleanest results both on tonal and rhythmic material
Wow that’s quite the endorsement. Thanks for sharing! What kind of music are you mastering with it? And did you test it against Limitless or Newfangled Elevate?
@@warpacademy Yeah lol when Sage Audio endorsed this as the best limiter out there I almost laughed because the standard GUI is so bad that I thought Voxengo had nothing to offer, how wrong I was… I’m currently mastering cinematic, house and techno mostly. I gave them all an extreme test, in 2 rounds. Giving 24 db boost and see what they came up with… both on piano material and on drums, respectively. Someone else might have a more elegant test but mine was “just turn it up to 11!” :-p
I have yet to try it with Elevate (and I must do that, thanks for the reminder) but I did try it with Limitless and the usual suspects Pro L2, Ozone, Smartlimit etc as well as masterplan, and others. - I found Ozone was very quick to distort, and the best algos were the first ones which ironically were released in the lite version of Ozone that I already had so getting the full version would have been a waste. Smartlimit remained largely distortion free because it seems to boost the release times so long that its causing a lot of pumping… And that was the trend overall it was all either too much distortion or too much pumping on all.
Out of the box some others might beat Elephant in one round or another, but then you change the algo or tweak settings and you can probably beat it. Each of the algos on Elephant is more or less its own limiter, which is customizable in ways that other limiters aren’t. I’m giving a decent amount of gain to be at between 8 and 10 LUFS, and sometimes up to 6 LUFS. Limitless used to squash and distort when I give it this much gain but Elephant doesn’t. And I’ll flip between the algos and see which works best on the material. So far so good. And no one talks about it except for sage audio. (And and lol) no one talks about polysquasher at all and its a very transparent mastering compressor - I couldn’t really find a single youtube video about it. Secret weapon!
Elephant sounds so good. Voxengo makes great tools.
@@warpacademy Mastering cinematic stuff, house and techno. Yes I tried it against Limitless, smartlimit, ozone, masterplan and others. Most had a lot more distortion and others like smartlimit acheive the less distortion with long release times making for a pumping effect. I wanted to hear what the distortion was on extreme settings because thats the real test for me of what the algo can do. Elephant I tried only after Sage Audio endorsed it as the most advanced limiter out there, and with it you can mimic all other limiters because you can go ‘under the hood’ in ways that other limiters don’t allow. And those two extremes either of distortion or pumping effects was the lowest of all of them when I chose the right algo on Elephant. I tested it on tonal material and percussive material to hear what it does, and it gives things that boost more cleanly than anything else. Funny that no one talks about it and there are no videos on their mastering compressor Polysquasher either which is very solid too.
Neat. Thanks for the info. Really appreciate that.
Have all except the DMG but my favorite at the moment which i find better than the ones presented is Acustica Lace
Thanks for the share! If you give Limitless a try let us know what you think.
@@warpacademy Will get the demo and give it a try
Nice! Worth it!
@@warpacademy I have tried limitless and indeed it's much better and more versatile than all the other limiters presented. Compared to Acustica Lace it's very close but Acustica sounds like it has more depth and a warmer sound. Both are very nice thought and good to have it in my arsenal.. Maybe u can also do a comparison
@@JohnWuMastermind Thanks for the suggestion!
Great video. I noticed that when using a hard clipper you get extra low frequencies.
A hard clipper before the limiter on the master; just reducing tiny peaks 0.5-1.0 dB is ok then ?
Thanks! And yes, that’s exactly what I was talking about and what David from MixbusTV discusses in the video I linked. It’s due to intermodulation. So if you use clipping (especially single band clipping) on the master then be very light with it and don’t dig into the RMS of the signal. Just clip super short micro transients. Cheers!
@@warpacademythanks for the reply 😀😀
You’re welcome.
can you make a video why use a multiband limiter?
Thanks for the suggestion. I mean, I can answer that really quick here by pasting a post on Gearspace from Dave Gamble (from DMG) about the concept of Limitless. For reference, here's the post: Here goes:
"Hi all,
I've spent a long time thinking about multiband limiters, and why no-one likes them. There are two kinds of multiband limiters: multiband dynamics processors followed by a wideband limiter, and truly multiband limiters. Well... there was really only one truly multiband limiter, but now there's two.
Waves L3 was groundbreaking... or, it should have been, but actually it's just really aggressive. I wanted a technical understanding of why I would consistently prefer L2 to L3.
Sometime around august last year, I had an idea for the design of a multiband limiter - something to basically magic a set of gain-reduction signals into making a limited signal with the friendliest possible gain-reduction curves. I fully destroyed an A4 notepad with scribbling, ending up with a very chunky proof and something I could implement.
Turns out, we don't like L3 because it *solves the wrong problem*. L3 tries to maximise gain at all costs. Don't do that; it makes s***** curves that impart distortion. Turns out (and here I'm somewhat giving the game away to anyone who wants to steal the idea) that the "right" strategy (based on weeks of listening tests) is to make the gain reduction curves as smooth as possible.
If you stop worrying about maximal loudness and instead design for invisibility, then invisibility is what you get. Whilst for the same drive, you get a quieter result, the distortion is dramatically reduced. So you can drive harder and actually end up with a perceptually louder result.
So, we built that and played with it loads and listened and listened and listened (to everything we could find, mastered or not).
Then we found out that release really matters for limiters. I should expand on that. Obviously release is crucial, but there's more than one way to implement a release, and an infinity of ways to implement an autorelease.
So, generally, you get one limiter to sort some peaks, with a fast release time (So you don't get dips in level after transients), and then maybe another one to flatten dynamics a little, and that one needs a slower release.
There are a lot of limiters which have auto-releases which basically adjust the release time depending on whether they think they're seeing transients or dynamics. Aaaaand we listened. And it's a crapshoot. Some material works great with one, some with another, and it's always a bit of a compromise.
So we had this idea we should basically just have two limiters that work together, to distribute the work between them. You get a dynamic limiter with configurable release time, which is in a "sane" range, like a few hundred ms, and a transient limiter with a configurable time which is a couple of ms at most.
End result is, dynamics don't pay for transients, and everything still gets done. All multiband too!
It's been a fun beta, and we're going to release on monday. If all goes well, we'll have a video introduction, and I might even make some videos explaining some concepts myself (though that's guaranteed to be weird).
I'm going to invite some beta testers to pop up to help me explain things.
Dave."
Limitless is cleaner and wider than the others (maybe not suitable for this particular track, do you agree?) and it sounds like the limiter I've always desired. L2 is snappier and crispier (I have it and I like it), Ozone is in between. I don't really like the others..
Hey hey. Thanks for the comment and insights. About Limitless, I actually prefer it in this case. Although I matched all the limiters, in truth, Limitless can be pushed harder and louder while still sounding acceptably clean. And with drum n bass, that's valuable.
In terms of width, that's easily controlled with other means , such as attenuating the side channel, if you find Limitless is sounding "too wide". I mean, also, keep in mind that Limitless tends to accurately preserve the width in the mix, while Ozone and Pro-L2 alter the width by making the mix sound closed in in this case.
Of course, the potential for loudness is not the only way to evaluate a limiter, and you've aptly pointed out there is a difference in the sound. The name of the game is carefully listening to the impact of the limiter on your master and evaluating if you like what it's doing compared to other limiters.
All the best!
@@warpacademy It's not TOO wide. I like that it's wide because (as you said) even good limiters often slightly "suppress" the stereo image when you really push them so it's a good thing for me!
Exactly :)
smart limit enforces upward compression under the hood, thereby manages to produce less distortion. But, this technique ends up lifting passages that are meant to be soft/relatively quiet to become obviously louder therefore altering the nature of the track itself.
Hey hey. Thanks for the comment. What are you basing that on? I don’t think that is correct. If you allow smart:limit to use the Saturate parameter then it will perform something like upwards compression except it’s not technically compression as it has no attack and release. It will inflate low level material, yes. But if Saturate is at zero then it functions as a traditional downwards limiter AFAIK.
If you think otherwise please let me know where you heard that or if you’ve tested it. I’d be happy to check with their team too as I may be wrong.
@@warpacademy I used the default settings as i wanted just limiting and not alter the track in any which way like engaging saturation or affecting low end. This was part of a testing i had carried out way back, on the same material, that included all of the limiters you picked here. Also, another drawback of smart limit i noticed is that it consumes the same high CPU even when it is idle.
Thanks for the info. I’ll follow up and ask their team if it’s doing any upwards limiting.
@@warpacademy Thanks Drew
@@warpacademy ruclips.net/video/wZRV2H4PK0Q/видео.html
I have Ozone and Sonible smart:limit, but Newfangled Elevate is better than either as a mastering limiter IMO, at least for super aggressive stuff.
I keep hearing that from people. Going to have to check it out. Thanks for the suggestion!
No love for the BX V2 limiter ? Or the Slate digital limiter .. the v2 they rolled out.
Honorable mention.. any of the MELDA PRODUCTIONS limiters are insane .. stupid loud with little artifacts
Right on, thanks for the suggestions. I have my main tools that I use, but each producer is different. There are so many options out there, I've really like to hear people's suggestions here. All the best!
Oh man, DMG Limitless just destroyed all of them.
There is nice movement, the soundstage is more open and wide, each element is held in place across the soundstage, it sounds smoother.
Now to compare with the Elevate and Weiss products, also the IK Stealth Limiter which emulates the Weiss limiter
Thanks for the comments! And those are good recommendations. Elevate has been recommended a lot. I've reached out to Newfangled. Will do the same with IK and maybe Weiss. Cheers!
@@warpacademy Oh sorry, i didn't mean to suggest more work for you !
Please continue whatever you had planned to do.
I am going to test for myself as i have the Weiss and DMG on demo and own the Elevate bundle.
Great videos, thank you !
Oh nice! Post back and let us all know what you think when you test them. Also join up with us in Discord. We chat a lot about production there too: discord.gg/ZwNgZteGKw
When you get Elevate please see if you think it reduces the low end more than other Limiters, that’s my only beef with it. It has an EQ but I don’t want to be adding bass at that stage, I’d rather use a limiter that doesn’t do that.
Okay I got Elevate and will test. Regarding the bass attenuation, I love in Limitless how it has a Weighting control. This allows you to limit the bass less and you have full control with no EQ needed. I wonder if Elevate has some similar parameters.
Ozone sounded clean and punchy. proL2 sounded distorted. Dmg sounded good but too expensive
Dmg is worth it.
^^^^ agree. But yeah, it is a pretty penny. I waited a couple years before I ended up investing in it.
Thanks for the comment!
@@warpacademy their loyalty program is pretty decent if you start with the cheaper plugins, plus things like TrackComp have compressor models for all the classics, so you don't have to download another free LA2A or 76 plugin ever again knowing DMG's model is the best
Clipper is the answer for loudness yo
I love clippers and use them a ton. Did you see the section of the video where I talk about how I use clippers? I use them on the individual tracks first, sub-mixes / busses second, and only very, very carefully on the master. A huge mistake is using clippers to dig in very hard on the master, as you can see in that section of the video where I show K-Clip.
Check out this video for how I use clippers all through a mix: ruclips.net/video/bj7ZNvmfRwA/видео.html
Watch this video to see what I think about clippers in general: ruclips.net/video/YpbV0INpHgc/видео.html
Watch this video if you think clipping your master hard is a good idea: www.youtube.com/watch?
Cheers!
I wish you would have explained real quick what Channel linking is... Had to look it up, it treats mono/stereo loudness equally.... Please when you use terminology or mention a feature just give a 2 sentence description of it
Hey hey. I mean, I kind of did explain channel linking. Not sure if you saw the text box where I noted that unlinked limiters function like dual mono, where the L channel cannot induce gain reduction in the right. That's the explanation. When you have unlinked settings, you have 2 independent limiters for L and R.
The way I do my videos is to focus on specific topics. Not each one is an exhaustive masterclass. This video is already 47 minutes long, can you imagine if I explained every piece of terminology and every feature? I cover as much ground as I can, but I often split up the lessons across multiple videos.
In this case, I'm doing a full playlist series on limiters and rolling the videos out over time.
@@warpacademy oh right you did write it in the descriptions, either way I appreciate your content and these videos
Thanks man. Yeah sometimes I miss explaining something in the video so I use the text boxes a lot in post. I realize how important it is to explain terminology but sometimes I goof and miss something. All the best and thanks for the kind words.
Clipper sounded best!!
Logic Pro stock limiter
Sometimes the native plugins are really good! And you can't argue with the price.
DMG and Ozone win
Thanks for the comment!
Side note;
If you're making Heavy DnB, Don't be afraid to achieve louder results than -6 LUFS... Most Neuro/Dancefloor labels put out tracks that peak around -3 LUFS... This is why the mixdown stage is so important in modern bass music... So you can match other producers loudness without destroying your dynamics or distorting the track. Erb N Dub just put out a really cool series of videos on the topic if anyone out there is interested. Big ups man!
Hey hey. Thanks for the comment. Yes, I've seen the levels of loudness pushed in the genre. I always investigate claims that you can create a song and master it to -3 LUFS or louder and still have it sound "clean". I have never once heard a song that loud that I feel is loudness done well. It's always been a bit of a mess to my ears. I am open to changing my mind on this, so send examples please with links.
Also, I'd love to check out the video series you mentioned. Link me to it? Cheers!
@@warpacademy Oh man... There are a few amazing Neurofunk producers that can push into -2 LUFS and sound absolutely amazing (Which I still wonder how tf they do it).
Burr Oak, for example, have some of the cleanest and heaviest mixdowns in the genre at the moment: ruclips.net/video/YDtR1KYYGZM/видео.html
Also Mefjus and Camo & Krooked - Sientelo is a masterpiece: ruclips.net/video/gOpAr0UiT6Q/видео.html
The Erb n Dub video about loudness and mixdowns in DnB: ruclips.net/video/0n0HUQANlls/видео.html
Hope you enjoy what I sent bro! Cheers!
Thanks for the links. Now, to preface my comments, I'm not in the slightest trying to insinuate that I'm a better producer or mixer than any of these guys. I'll make observations based on my personal taste and experience.
The Burr Oak track, while impeccably produced, sounds fatiguing to listen to and the drums are paying the price for the loudness. Listen to it. Do you hear how quiet sounding, how pushed back, and rather small the drums are? That's what I hear in most songs pushed this loud. That's the sound of a master that's been squeezed hard into a limiter and personally, I don't like it. I think it's chasing loudness rather than mastering the song to what sounds the best.
The Mefjus and Camo and Krooked tune sounds better to me. The drums have more impact and the tune feels a bit more dynamic. Mefjus is an inspiration. Top notch producer there. I wonder which version I would like more though if it was mastered a little less loud and then you A/B compared the two versions with loudness normalized. Doing that type of test is important.
Some food for thought. Skrillex used to have his songs mastered to -4 LUFS (more or less). Now he's having them mastered to be less loud. Consider why that is? He's capable of extremely loud mixes and masters, so why would he back that off? More food for thought. His song Rumble won the 2024 Grammy for best electronic / dance recording with Flowdan and Fred Again. He didn't master it, it was Lucas Pretolesi from Studio DMI. Luca is the top mastering engineer (and mix engineer ) in the world, IMO, for electronic music, and the Grammys agree with that statement. He's the top tog. Guess what that song was mastered to in the drops? -6 LUFS. Why would the world's top electronic engineer master to that, when he could have pushed it to -2, -3?
Thanks for the link to the videos on DnB. I'm stoked to check those out. Cheers!
-2? -3? No. Why.
@@whiskyngeets Drum&Bass is naturally a very loud genre of music. You can reach -2 LUFS and still maintain your dynamics and sound clean. Its all about your mix and gain staging, which is a lot easier said than done. Now, this may not apply to other genres such as House or Trap... But for DnB and Bass music, you need to be able to compete against other producers' mixdowns/levels.
I think you are a high grade technical and savvy dude... i just don't agree with the material somehow. Thabns for the input tho, subscribed.
Thanks for subscribing. Drum n Bass isn't for everyone. Glad you enjoyed the video.
@@warpacademy your videos are on point, information very well explained. Thank you.
@@xaosm_os Cheers!
Its over
Dude, way to much adds.
RUclips does that just so ya know. I don’t control how many ads there are or where they are. And you can pay for a RUclips premium account to make things add free if you want.
I think you picked a really bad music for this conversation. The whole sound is full of distortion even without limiters involved.
I gave you the heads up at the beginning that I was going to use drum n bass. That’s the sound. If you don’t like that style don’t watch the video. I love this genre. And this is the style of music I mix and master.