Quick Correction: Grima did want Eowyn’s hand in marriage as will be later revealed in a future chapter. Although the scene in the movie is fabricated, it is there to represent this later point. Thanks to all who noticed this! 🫡 Teamwork makes the dreamwork.
‘Nay, Éomer, you do not fully understand the mind of Master Wormtongue,’ said Gandalf, turning his piercing glance upon him. ‘He is bold and cunning. Even now he plays a game with peril and wins a throw. Hours of my precious time he has wasted already. Down, snake!’ he said suddenly in a terrible voice. ‘Down on your belly! How long is it since Saruman bought you? What was the promised price? When all the men were dead, you were to pick your share of the treasure, and take the woman you desire? Too long have you watched her under your eyelids and haunted her steps.’ Éomer grasped his sword. ‘That I knew already,’ he muttered. ‘For that reason I would have slain him before, forgetting the law of the hall. But there are other reasons.’ He stepped forward, but Gandalf stayed him with his hand. ‘Éowyn is safe now,’ he said. ‘But you, Wormtongue, you have done what you could for your true master. Some reward you have earned at least. Yet Saruman is apt to overlook his bargains. I should advise you to go quickly and remind him, lest he forget your faithful service.’ -Book 3, Chapter 6
I am of the school of thought that... i want to see every single scene from the original writer which adds to the characterization. for example the chase scene gives details of how 'heroic' the three heroes are, but also shows how mortal they are still, like the comment when Gimli complains the pace is too much for him, or aragorn laments all his decisions of late have been amiss. there will always been scenes that are not necessary (like bombadil which adds little to the story other than lore of the world), but its sad to lose characterization scenes. It is clever though when they are able to remove a nameless character in the book and give it to a main character (Eomer delivering the news). optimizations like that is good work.
@@Jonyeyeball How is that unrealistic? A shot in the leg is not deadly, but a knife in the chest often is. Furthermore, armor changes everything. Arrows can pierce ballistic jelly and bullet proof glass more easily than bullets, yet bullets can more easily pierce steel plates than can arrows. Context, my dude. Even in the unrealistic worlds of marvel and DC, what a thing is designed for can be vital. Batman wears bullet proof clothing, designed to stop bullets--not knives.
@@ericaugust1501 Bombadil is there to stop the hobbits from dying to their first real taste of danger. He stops them from sleeping forever beneath the willow, he stops them from going the wrong way to Bree, and he rescues them from the barrow wights. His purpose is to be the hero they need before they've had time to become the heroes themselves. He gives the reader (and characters) hard evidence that no matter how important the hobbits' journey may be, they are simply not ready for it. And then, having served his role by guiding the hobbits to the road, he leaves, forcing the hobbits to try to adapt to this dangerous new world. Skipping the entire journey, as in the original movie version, creates the vibe that these are already capable heroes, no matter how overwhelmed they feel. Rescuing themselves from terrible danger, as in the extended version, emphasizes this even further. Yes, Aragorn could have taken the place of Bombadil, saving them from the willow and guiding them safely across the barrow downs. But, introducing him straightaway as a hero, the hobbits would have grown dependent on him rather than having to determine whether or not he could be trusted to help. They wouldn't have grown to exhibit the independence necessary to send Frodo to Mordor alone and rouse the ents of Fangorn against Isengard. So, sure. It could have been a ranger. It could have been an entwife. It could have been Gandalf or Glorfindel, or any number of other characters who then either betrayed them or had to leave. But they needed to see how dangerous the world outside the Shire was, and that they would have to grow to handle it.
Gimli did have that speedrun exposition line during the first scene with the trio: "Three days and nights pursuit. No food, no rest. No sign of our quarry, but what bare rock can tell!" which I guess at least catches the audience up without using up more than a few seconds.
Exactly! So it's pretty much up to the viewers... would we rather have a much much longer compilation of scenes showing the three days pursuit? Or is this one liner enough to fill us in? Personally, I think it's enough!
Now I don't really know how much you think Grima's lust for Eowyn is "added fluff for the film". The book includes this intricate desire from Wormtongue. Gandalf says: What was the promised price? When all the men were dead, you were to pick your share of the treasure, and take the woman you desire? Too long have you watched her under your eyelids and haunted her steps.' Éomer grasped his sword. 'That I knew already,' he muttered. So of course there is some substance in the fluff.
One geographic continuty error that happens in the movie is in the famous (and memed) "They're taking the hobbits to Isengard" scene, Legolas says "The Uruks turn north-east." before his mentioned line. This is wrong as from where they are located, in the Eastemnet, not too far from Parth Galen and the Falls of Rauros, Isengard is actually south-west, NOT north-east.
It's kind of baffling that they'd include that line at all, since they're heading west, meaning the Uruk-hai would either have turned to the northwest if not simply just northward. The only way they would be turning east is if they ran right past Isengard and then made a u-turn for some reason.
@@MrJakeypakey To slightly play devil's advocate they would potentially have to go south-west to cross the fords of Isen and then turn directly north to get to Isengard. So a sharp turn isn't completely out of the question. But obviously we'd have to see them cross the river first so it still makes no sense.
@eddyd63 But still they have to go west and not east even if they crossed River Isen. It's only north and south that have been switched around AKA latitude, the longitude remains the same.
It is actually confirmed in the book that Wormtongue was after Eowyn. It is mentioned by Gandalf when he and the three companions confront Wormtongue and help Theoden.
This too, I remember something about Grima encountering Eowyn sitting by Theodred's body and trying to convince her to marry him or spend her life alone. Something similar to the scene in the movie where Theodred hasn't died yet I think.
@@PiscatorLager Prop blades are not sharp by design except for where they need to be to demonstrate sharpness in specific shots. This is basic set safety with weapons to reduce risk of injury and therefore to keep their insurance premiums low. (yes film makers take out insurance for this stuff)
Some points here: First, I agree the condensed chase is good, and the areal landscape shots with the glorious fellowship theme music open up the whole movie in an awesome way, at the same time introducing the three characters into the Two Towers. Second, Eomer is hard done by both in terms of plot and screen time. A shame he was cut from all the Edoras and Helms Deep scenes. Third, in terms of location, the landscape of Rohan was supposed to be flat, not beautifully newzealandish.
As far as the flat plains go, I noticed that as well. Not sure why I didn’t mention it. Probably cause I actually like the New Zealand scenery anyway, so no complaints here. 😂
If nothing else, the greatest thing Jackson ever did was cast Andy Serkis as Gollum, who then narrated all of the audio books of The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings, and after having read those many, many times in paper, got to listen to Serkis narrate them all and not only do his famous Gollum voice, but absolutely nail every single character in the books including Gandalf and the sing-songy Tom Bombadil and made probably the best version of Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit ever created. Highly recommend.
One important thing that was left out at the beginning, was that Aragorn says in the books that tracking these Uruk-Hai should not have been as difficult as it was proving to be. The trio realizes that Saruman is lending some sorcery to aid the Uruk-Hai in their speed and hindering the pursuers by producing a "weariness that is in the heart, and not the limb".
Also Legolas mentions that "they run as if the very whips of their masters were behind them." It is made evident by Aragorn and Legolas that there is magic at work giving the uruks speed and advantage.
Gríma did want Eowyn's hand in marriage, that's why he got into Saruman's service i the first place, though this is confirmed later after Théoden is healed from Saurman's inflence and he gives Wormtongue to either ride with him to war to prove his loyaltiy or to go back to his master Saruman. This is also the scene where Eomer's line "What was his promised prize, Gríma? When all the men are dead you get a part of the treasure?", though I forgot who says it in the book but it could be Aragorn, Théoden or Gandalf who says it.
Jackson is often on a hiding to nothing with the scenes in these movies. Purists critique him for removing scenes without thinking that the movies would end up being 9 hours long each. There was also criticism that the movies were too long. I feel he had to make intelligent compromises and he did well all things considered.
Having read the books at least 2 and maybe 3 times by the times the movies came out, I think he did the best he could with an impossibly long "script". He did the opposite with the Hobbit, stretching MAYBE 2 movies into 3. All In all I am not bitter, he did the best to give us Tolkein as he saw it.
No issue with taking stuff out, as film makers do that with adaptations all the time. Where I take issue with Jackson is when he then proceeds to add in about an hour of unneccessary filler, and when he also changes beloved characters for no reason whatsoever. It would be like if, in Shawshank Redemption, Darabont added 35 minutes of extra material unrelated to the original story, and made Andy Dufresne into an arrogant @$$hole to boot.
And yet the extended cut included things THAT WEREN'T IN THE FRICKIN BOOKS! Tell me the logic in the scene with the Witch King breaking Gandalf's staff at Minas Tirith?! What's your explanation for that "intelligent compromise" beyond it looks cool?
@@mnomadvfx it wasn't just the exteneded cut where that BS occurred. The Warg Attack before Helms Deep, the nonsense with Arwen going to the Havens and having that vision, Pippin lighting the beacon, Faramir dragging Frodo and Sam to Osgiliath and encounteting the Nazgul. All scenes which added to the runtime that weren't in the books, added nothing to the narrative and actually undermined very important characters. I get so tired of people defending Jackson's trilogy. I do wonder if the success of the first film went to his head or something?
A marathon is 26 miles. Aragorn and Legolas managing to run over 5 marathons during a three day period is... understandable, given the power of elves. But Gimli? Surprised he didn't drop dead halfway through the first day, especially with all that armor.
Tolkien's dwarves were certainly capable of such heroic action, but they're not going to enjoy it. (And they'll likely make sure you're aware of the fact as well.) They weren't made from the same stuff humans and elves were.
Surely an impressive accomplisment, but consider the orcs !. They covered a far greater distance in a shorter time, while carrying weapons, provisions and prisoners. And, in the end, were able to fight a running battle against cavalry.
Not sure if anyone else mentioned it. Grima's "Who knows what you have spoken to the darkness" speech came from a scene after Pelennor Fields when Eowyn is healing, spoken by either Gandalf or Aragorn (or Faramir). A herald to her courage and torment. When Jackson has Grima deliver the lines it is outright creepy and lends to the theme that he wants her.
Agreed, other than all the changes in the Gondor arc in return of the king. For the sole reason, they would have upset Tolkien. The weird forgetting that Aragon gives the hobbits Dunedain long knifes to make up for skiping the barrows in the movies, that they seem to forget about is also weird.
Absolutely Jackson's changes here were for the most part very good. If I wanted a little more realism with finding Merry's brooch and maybe a little more realism about the children's mother (even just SOME unlikely way she might've hidden/survived), I can forgive them for time. Well done Mr. Director, you captured this portion of the book expertly for film! I don't mind comic relief for Gimli … I wish they'd not cut a few more of the moments that would've balanced the comedy a bit more. Gimli is a freakin' badass, not a pretender or a clown. Make him funny, sure, but I wanted to see him be the stout warrior he is meant to be as well. Too many of THOSE scenes were cut for time.
I assumed that a group of Rohan's men headed for Helm's Deep came by after the children rode off and took the mom with them. Remember, there were already a large number of people at Helm's Deep when the group from Edoras got there.
This makes sense! Especially in book format… I guess what I get hung up on for the film is that as the children are riding away they look back and the village is pretty much being burned down and plundered at that moment. So unless the Rohirrim showed up literally right when the scene cuts away, I don’t think they would have gotten there in time. Perhaps some of the villagers snuck off or hid in time and weren’t found. 👀
@@factorfantasyweekly Perhaps the reunion of mother and children could've also been a visual representation of Helm's Deep being a (or the only) place of hope and refuge against Isengard? "Even if there's not much hope, hope isn't completely gone" kind of thing.
@@factorfantasyweekly I always understood the scene as expressing that the women of Rohan are fighters, too, and many have shields and swords to use - which is certainly mentioned in the book. So the mother was almost certainly not alone, or defenceless, at that point. The destruction of the village probably means there was a fight in which some of those staying to defend it were slain, but others would have escaped the slaughter and found their way to Helm's Deep after fighting a rearguard action. We're shown a snippet of one of the survivors, rather than one who fell, because that is the style of storytelling common in Hollywood movies.
@@factorfantasyweekly well, she was a local, so maybe she knew the land well enough to avoid the attackers. And the kids went all the way to Edoras and then back to Helm's Deep, she'd only have to go about a third that distance to reach Helm's Deep.
I was never quite happy that they turned Gimli into the laughing stock of the crew. Yeah it was kind of funny, but Gimli for years was my favorite character and I detested PJs treatment of him. Elves out-drinking Dwarves? Yeah right, does anyone remember that Dwarves were made from STONE? How do you get STONE drunk? In Hobbit we find that Elves can't even handle the wine made by the humans of Laketown when Bilbo manages to sneak 13 Dwarves past Thingol's drunken crew that are supposed to see that the wine-casks get back to Laketown. Elves who have only been drinking the dregs of those casks. I believe Saruman's burning of Fangorn is pointed out when Pippin and Merry coerce Fangorn to take them towards Isengard while supposedly taking them back towards home. It's Fangorn seeing Saruman's destruction of Fangorn forest that brings the Ents to war. If I remember accurately the novel points out that Grima is trying to unsuccessfully woo Eowyn by suggesting his fortunes are bound to improve, and unless she binds her fortunes to his (IE marries him), hers are bound to end in loneliness now that her betrothed is dead. - Something like that anyways. Admittedly it's been too long since my last reading.
@@DraconimLt Well it's a bit of mix of Sindarin words. Fang means bearded and Gorne means tree. So essentially his name reflects exactly what he would look like to the elves. The rest of the forest would match given how thick and ancient it is.
You've got me hooked on this journey with you, man. Great job. Your videos are edited and put together very well! Hope to see this channel continue to rise in the fantasy scene!
The one major complaint that I have about PJ's version is that he removed relationship development between Eomer and Theoden. I love that part from the book where Theoden says something like "I'm going to call you my son from now on". And I'm pretty sure that this is right after he released him from the jail. (Unfortunately my mother don't want to give me my books back, so I can't check that myself). And also that scene when he signals that Eomer will be his heir to the throne. Just how loyal Eomer was to both Rohan and Theoden when he wasn't under the influence of Saruman and wormtongue and didn't held any grudges towards Theoden for locking him up in jail... Well, at least PJ kept his relationship with Eowyn in the films.
The film telling was, I thought as I watched and now, pretty close to perfect. The story was NOT about Rohan; it merely included it. As Boyens has often said, the movies were about Frodo and Sam. Anything that didn't directly support their story had to be looked at. If JRRT had a fault, it was a complete inability to edit himself, and the publisher had no interest at all in doing so; he was a formidable figure that few editors would care to stand up to. He included much in the books that he knew was just asking the reader to humor him; he said as much in many of the letters published. While this part of the story is fine in writing, it would have been a disaster in a movie. Too many new characters (with very similar names as well) with a fairly small bit of story spread between them-it would have confused viewers, and lost them completely. As those who have worked their way through all of the variations of these tales JRRT created (thanks to his son) will know, Tolkien often wrote the same story in very different ways, with different characters and events. The STORY matters, not the detail. I think he loved the idea of leaving incompatible variants of stories; this is much like how real legends and histories evolve. I think he'd have fully understood the film versions. He may even have wished he had though of many of the changes himself. On the theme of a story changing without altering the story, JRRT himself would give oral presentations of his writings that were obviously shortened and even changed in major details so that the story would remain the same in that shorter medium. Exactly as the makers of the film did. To anyone reading this far who has only read the published LOTR, you owe it to yourself to dig into Christopher Tolkien's History of Middle Earth series. There is so much more to be had.
There were obvious differences in the LOTR movies that did and did not occur in the Trilogy. This is understandable. Small changes and even large omissions due to production restrictions and the audience consisted of alot of folks who never read the books. On the other hand, the Hobbit was an entertaining set of movies that only vaguely followed the book and included dramatic changes in the storyline meant to pander to a "movie" audience without regard to any limitation of being in any way "faithful" to the book.. Gimli was at a loss for words and overwhelmed by his encounter with Galadriel.. who wouldn't be? In the Hobbit films, there was a love story with an Elf and a Dwarf.. No.. just no.. at least not in a Tolkien based story. Make a cartoon based upon the imagination of the creator that includes unrequited love between a bear and a tiger.. fine.. might be a lesson there.. Dwarf and Elf in Tolkiens amazing world? No... It's not sexist or "racist" or anything like that.. It's just "no".. Just my 2 bits.. Be Well!! 😃
Cutting the chase was definitely the right choice, though I would have preferred if the cuts showed the passage of time more (but that is a constant issue with the trilogy). Removing Pippin's agency is a much worse offense, and other changes and unnecessary additions begin to pile up. The two children are just cheap, clichéd, saccharine plot device. It's 125 miles from Isen to Edoras, a message of such importance would require a tough courier with great stamina to ever hope to reach the place at a time when it would still be relevant. Those children needed to go to Edoras so that Éowyn could be mothering them (because that's what the highest-ranking women at court totally do) and later provide that implausible, tear-jerking reunion. Also, Théodred: book Théodred is Éomer's senior by over a decade, a man grown and an accomplished warrior, not a kid barely out of his teens. This is probably not an important change but I don't understand why they didn't cast someone more age-fitting. In connection with the overdone change to Théoden's exterior, it looked especially jarring.
I agree about Pippin, the children did nothing for me just time wasted. I did miss the discusion between the chasing group, it ads to the tension, slow growth of friendship and Aragorns character. The chases looked like a pretty fun jog for Legolas and Aragorn, like it was just hard for Gimli because he's short. He doubts himself a lot in the books, in the movies he just knows the right choises.
Just wanted to say that i just found your channel this morning, and you have earned my sub in less than 3 videos! I have been a fan of The Hobbit and LOTR since literally before I can remember. The first book my dad read to me (other than like The Pokey Little Puppy) was The Hobbit, when I was like 3. And it was also the first book I read on my own when I was about 5. So Middle Earth holds a very special place in my heart. Thank you for treating my "home away from home" with such respect and reverence. Especially with how much the lore and world have been disrespected and twisted to try to shove in modern day politics and "correct" various viewpoints and characters. But I won't get started on THAT rant here, lol! Amyway, great video, awesome series, and amazing channel. Keep up the fantastic work, and I'll keep coming back to watch it!
Devil's advocate here ... the first time I read LotR, I found myself getting a little bored during the Rohan section and getting all the Eowhatever names confused. This (and Bombadil) were clearly the best things to cut, if you've got to cut something, and the fact that Jackson trimmed this (and cut Bombadil completely) and STILL wound up with like 9 hours of movie meant he DEFINITELY needed to cut something. I don't love a lot of the changes, and I particularly don't love what Jackson did to Gimli, but I think the most egregious change is something that we haven't gotten to yet, namely the fate of Sauruman and Grima.
There might be one timeline change in PJ's The Two Towers. Aragorn tells Eowyn that he is 87 years old. Either: A) The Three Hunters encounter Gandalf the White and reach Edoras before the beginning of March (March 1st being Aragorn's birthday) or B) Peter Jackson has outright changed Aragorn's age, making him 86 years old when he meets Frodo in Bree. Come to think of it, this is really a timeline change either way, isn't it?
Aragorn would have turned 87 in 3018 when the "Great Years" began. Then he turned 88 the next year on the day he met Gandalf the White. So Jackson probably figured out that he was 87 when the movie began and didn't take into account that a new year had started, especially since the new year began during their stay in Rivendell, which Jackson sped up for the movie.
I'm in my 60s and frequently get my own age off by a year one way or the other. Certainly Aragorn could make the same mistake in the middle of a pretty awkward conversation, no?
@@OldWhitebelly Conceivably! After all, escaping from the Wood-elves Bilbo seemed to have not noticed that he and the Dwarves reached Lake-town on his own birthday.
Gríma very much had his eye on Éowyn in the book as well. From Chapter 6: The King of the Golden Hall: “'Nay, Éomer, you do not fully understand the mind of Master Wormtongue,’ said Gandalf, turning his piercing glance upon him. ‘He is bold and cunning. Even now he plays a game with peril and wins a throw. Hours of my precious time he has wasted already. Down, snake!’ he said suddenly in a terrible voice. ‘Down on your belly! How long is it since Saruman bought you? What was the promised price? When all the men were dead, you were to pick your share of the treasure, and take the woman you desire? Too long have you watched her under your eyelids and haunted her steps.’ Éomer grasped his sword. ‘That I knew already,’ he muttered. ‘For that reason I would have slain him before, forgetting the law of the hall. But there are other reasons.’ He stepped forward, but Gandalf stayed him with his hand. ‘Éowyn is safe now,’ he said. ‘But you, Wormtongue, you have done what you could for your true master. Some reward you have earned at least. Yet Saruman is apt to overlook his bargains. I should advise you to go quickly and remind him, lest he forget your faithful service.'"
I'm not too worried upset that Peter Jackson did the hunt across Rohan the way he did it. However, I thought I should let you know you were mistaken about Grima's interest in Eowyn being made up. In the chapter "The King of the Golden Hall," Gandalf says to Grima, "How long is it since Saruman bought you? What was the promised price? When all the men were dead, you were to pick your share of the treasure, and take the woman you desire? Too long have you watched her under your eyelids and haunted her steps." Eomer then states he was ready to slay Grima for his interest in the princess, the Marshal's sister.
the actors for legolas, aragorn and gimli were also wounded during shooting, viggo with his broken toe after punting an orcs head (the one we see in the film is when he breaks his foot), orlando with cracked ribs after he fell off a horse and the scale double for gimli had a dislocated knee so its understandable why there were a lot less shots of the chase
Yes, a simple discussion composed entirely of arguments put forth by different characters for the purpose of persuading the others that it was either better to rest or better to continue. So....they were arguing over whether they should sleep. That's literally what was happening.
While the kids that is sent away by their mom when the Wildmen and Uruks attack Westfold, are made up for the movie (as well as their mom), the boy and the mom's names does come from the books. The boy is named Éothain, which is one of Eomer's men who is surrounding Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli in the upcoming chapters, while the mom is named Morwen (though her name isn't mentioned in the movie, she is listed in the credits, like with Lurtz), who was Théoden's mother (there's also another Morwen in The First Age, mentioned in The Silmarillion).
@@factorfantasyweekly Only half-good. Éothain is a Rohirric name but Morwen is not, Théoden's mother was from Gondor. Rohirric commoners picking names of foreign-born royalty is highly unlikely.
@@DraconimLt It is certainly not _entirely_ impossible. However: all of Queen Morwen's (known) descendants had Rohirric names, but a commoner of Westfold, who most likely never even set foot in Edoras, would give their child this foreign name? Highly implausible.
@@irena4545 not really, if the commoner hears good things about that Queen and likes the name. The Queen's descendents have Rohirric names precisely because they are Rohirric Royalty. It's a dynastic - keeping traditional family style names - thing.
In the trilogy the long run was a huge tension builder. Major sense of struggle right down to eating lambas bread as they run, its ability to be digested in battle sustaining them without stopping.
Having read all Tolkiens Middle Earth books in the eighties, the best thing i ever did was to not re read them before seing the movies. My biggest and pretty much only disappointment however was leaving out the battle of Bywater. Feels like the movies never really Finished the storyline.
18:05 Well actually he does, it just doesn't come up until later, when Grima is being confronted by Gandalf on the front steps of Edoras after Gandalf healed the King's mind. It's shortly after the King has Eomer released from prison and brought to him, right after Grima offers to stay behind and govern Edoras while the King goes off to war.
Have you already stated the order in which you'll be doing this movie (Scene by scene or chapter by chapter)? Since the films switch between the merry/pippin, aragorn trio, and frodo/sam storylines so much while the books basically skip frodo's journey for half of a book. I'm ok with either approach but it does make a little difference (occasional timeline reference points being named in the books, the very obvious exclusion of the shelob scenes until next movie, etc). I may have missed you mentioning this at the beginning, but I'm curious
My first time watching your content. Very nicely done, thank you. I first read The Hobbit and The Trilogy 52 years ago and was hooked. I've read every last scrap of paper I could find which had Tolkien's name attached to it. I'm sure others have made this observation, but it should be said regardless. While as a purist I could bemoan Jackson's inaccuracies, but it does not for one instant take away from the fact that Jackson is the only person who has successfully brought the LOTR to the screen. In order for him to have a truly comprehensive rendition of Tolkien's masterpiece, he would have had to produce nine movies instead of a mere Trilogy. Was I disappointed in some areas of Jackson's work? Of course I was. I was greatly disappointed by his treatment of the death of Saruman. It spoiled the ending of The Return of the King. I knew there would be no rousing of the Shire. Does it for one instant take away from the fact that this is a rousing film adaptation? Not in the least. This is a splendid work. I greatly appreciate your handling of it. Again, thank you.
The thing that always nettled me was Legolas saying "The Uruks turn north-east!" The only way you can get to Isengard by traveling northeast is by being back on the Western side of the Misty Mountains and all the way PAST the gap of Rohan. The Uruks would've been turning southwest at best.
Jackson simplified the story, the characters and the world. He had to. Mass market movies aimed at kids and casual viewers are very different from dense novels
14:28 is it really unrealistic for a few villagers to manage to hide in the hills/country/caverns while the pillagers are distracted with the business of looting the village and murdering the villagers who are close at hand? I don't think so.
omg!! Gollum falls down into Mount Doom not only because he is too focused on the Ring, but also because he betrays his Oath to Frodo on the Ring. Which kinda causes "the good Forces" in middle Earth to intervene and make gollum fall. i remember Gandalf talking about how theres "good at work in middle earth", even tho we cant actually see it. it took me embarassingly many years to realize that...
I agree, the entire hunt would have not worked in the movie, just like the scenes of Sam & Frodo in the Emyn Muil would have been unnecessary and too drawn for a film adaption.
Even as a massive fan of the books, I honestly prefer the Movie's banishment vs imprisonment, it means when Gandalf returns to save the day at Helms Deep, it's Eomer who we know, not Erkenbrand who we've never yet met who shows up. It might be less realistic, but s a story, it reads better. Plus, it acts as an ultimate vindication of Eomer and his men who were still loyal to their king.
The opening scene (after Gandalf versus Balrog and Frodo, Sam & Gollum, of course) of Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli is brilliant. The way the camera focuses on each of them individually as if to say to the audience who has waited a whole year “Remember him? And him? And don’t forget him!” The only film sequel I can equate it to doing it just as brilliantly is the Echo Base scene from the beginning of The Empire Strikes Back. Shots of Luke, Han, Chewbacca, and Leia that are meant to be specific reminders but don’t feel forced. (No pun intended. 🥸)
Grima DID have his eye on Eowyn and Eomer knew and threatened to kill Grima because of it. Wormtongue is the kind of man my maternal grandpa would describe as "oily." Sleazy, untrustworthy, sly, not someone you want to spend any time with, not someone who was fit to be around your wife or daughter, Someone who'd give you "the creeeps."
There is no way that Gimli kept up with the fastest pace that Aragorn and Legolas could set. We kind of have to ignore that. To have shown it as reality, it would have been comical, as Aragorn and Legolas would constantly have gotten way out in front of Gimli, and had to sit down and wait for him.
I prefer Andy Serkis overall but some people don’t like his style. So the best alternative is Rob Inglis! Rob is a much older style and probably more “Tolkien” ish.
@@factorfantasyweekly thank you sire! I like Andys work on the Silmarillion, but i find it a bit hard to follow, that could just be how the Silmarillion is written but i will check out both!
I still like the book's descriptions better, but I do understand it would never have worked in film format and I agree with Petey's changes...unlike some other things he changed.
135 miles in three days = 45 miles per day, 72.42 km per day. 6 km per hour is brisk walk, so, if they walked, they were walking 12 hours per day, excluding pauses.
135 miles seems a lot but 3 days & 3 nights is 72 hrs so assuming they ran the whole time that's an average speed of less than 2 mph. Since even Gimli was running faster than that, I think they had time for 1st and 2nd breakfast each day.
I didn’t like most of the changes here. Cutting down the length of the description of the chase is one thing but the key events both from Merry and Pipin’s perspective and those of Aragorn et al could have been shown by dropping the pointlessly confusing depiction of Saruman building up an army in days which in the story is of stage and takes years (the rebuilding of Isengard is complete when Gandalf arrives the previous summer). The only thing we really need, and are missing, is the clash between the orc scouts and the Eastfold scouts as part of the Merry/Pippin sequence. If Jackson really wanted to show something going on in Rohan then it should have been Eomer receiving his scouts report and a clash with Theoden/Wormtounge over his plan to respond to the orcs. All we need of the death of Theodred is a mention in a conversation. The power dynamics between Theoden/Eomer/Wormtounge needed far more subtle and creative handling in a way that such a limited director as Jackson just can’t handle even though his actors could.
Making the chase scene longer would have made it cinematically boring. What make a good book and what make a good movie is different, so it was a good decision to shorten it. Also, I didn't really know how long the chase was, 135 miles in 3 days is impressive, but not super human in any way. Well trained ancient soldiers often have a maximum of about 30 miles marching per day, but that includes transporting weapons and equipment, including siege weapons. Running about 45 miles per day is basically on average lightly jogging and still have time to take fair pauses for eating and long nights sleep. Tracking while doing this add to the impressiveness though. Also the terrain they traverse, although the terrain in the book seem a bit smoother to travel.
As much as I loved the audio books read by Andy Serkis, I couldn't get through them. I listen to audio books at night while in bed and the volume was not normalised at all. One minute it's super quiet and the next it's speaker blasting as he starts to sing, yet another song. The sad truth is that it's a rough read despite the content of it being incredible. (I await the book purists crying and calling me a "fake fan")
Damn, 135 miles in three days? When hiking, it’s considered crazy good progress to travel 20 miles per day… most hikers average around 10-12 miles/day.
I once quit a job and I walked home about 13 miles in four and half hours. If they walked at that same pace as I did, they could cover 45 miles in about 15 hours. That leaves 9 hours free, which is plenty for food and rest and sleep... Then do the same the next day, and then the same thing the third day. That's a 135 miles with plenty of sleep and resting and feasting in-between....and no running. It's easy.
For anyone saying the distance and time is not realistic: If you walk for 15 hrs per day u will (3miles/hr) u will make 135 mi in 3 days.. nothing strange.. armies have done similar things in history many times. No need to run, humans are made to walk for long distances. far more economical than running. King Harold marched his forces, most on foot and in full gear, 185 miles in 4 days. And this after first having marched to Stanford and fighting a war. When humans do manual labor every day we have extraordinary stamina. This is something Tolkien would be very aware of and probably was thinking about when writing this section since his numbers are so similar.
It is weird. The Rohirrim are said in the books not to keep written histories, but preserve their past in song. I suppose they could have picked up some system of written law from Gondor over the years, but it is unlikely.
Little to none. Having Éomer jailed like in the books and then, say, secretly released by Éowyn and accompanied by his faithful to exile would have made more sense. It would also give Éowyn something in-character to do, instead of mothering the two kids and cooking terrible dinners.
Loving these, thank you! I’m rereading the book and so confused as to why I’m seeing Saruman confronted in the Two Towers sectionby Gandalf when I’m sure it was from ROTK in the film? And he doesn’t die by Wormtongue 😮
@MissGelly, in both the film and the book, he does get killed by Wormtongue but the locations are different. I won't spoil the book version too much but the context is about the same, Saruman abuses him and something in Wormtongue snaps, he attacks Saruman.
Just looked up the self-supported FKT for the Arizona trail and it's like 55+ miles a day. Most hiking plans for the big trails assume you'll hike at least 20 to 30 miles every day for weeks if not months on end.
Quick Correction: Grima did want Eowyn’s hand in marriage as will be later revealed in a future chapter. Although the scene in the movie is fabricated, it is there to represent this later point. Thanks to all who noticed this! 🫡 Teamwork makes the dreamwork.
‘Nay, Éomer, you do not fully understand the mind of Master Wormtongue,’ said Gandalf, turning his piercing glance upon him. ‘He is bold and cunning. Even now he plays a game with peril and wins a throw. Hours of my precious time he has wasted already. Down, snake!’ he said suddenly in a terrible voice. ‘Down on your belly! How long is it since Saruman bought you? What was the promised price? When all the men were dead, you were to pick your share of the treasure, and take the woman you desire? Too long have you watched her under your eyelids and haunted her steps.’ Éomer grasped his sword. ‘That I knew already,’ he muttered. ‘For that reason I would have slain him before, forgetting the law of the hall. But there are other reasons.’ He stepped forward, but Gandalf stayed him with his hand. ‘Éowyn is safe now,’ he said. ‘But you, Wormtongue, you have done what you could for your true master. Some reward you have earned at least. Yet Saruman is apt to overlook his bargains. I should advise you to go quickly and remind him, lest he forget your faithful service.’
-Book 3, Chapter 6
I am of the school of thought that... i want to see every single scene from the original writer which adds to the characterization. for example the chase scene gives details of how 'heroic' the three heroes are, but also shows how mortal they are still, like the comment when Gimli complains the pace is too much for him, or aragorn laments all his decisions of late have been amiss. there will always been scenes that are not necessary (like bombadil which adds little to the story other than lore of the world), but its sad to lose characterization scenes. It is clever though when they are able to remove a nameless character in the book and give it to a main character (Eomer delivering the news). optimizations like that is good work.
Batman was shot at the start of the movie and was fine, was stabbed at the end and nearly died. This is fine
@@Jonyeyeball How is that unrealistic? A shot in the leg is not deadly, but a knife in the chest often is. Furthermore, armor changes everything. Arrows can pierce ballistic jelly and bullet proof glass more easily than bullets, yet bullets can more easily pierce steel plates than can arrows. Context, my dude. Even in the unrealistic worlds of marvel and DC, what a thing is designed for can be vital. Batman wears bullet proof clothing, designed to stop bullets--not knives.
@@ericaugust1501 Bombadil is there to stop the hobbits from dying to their first real taste of danger. He stops them from sleeping forever beneath the willow, he stops them from going the wrong way to Bree, and he rescues them from the barrow wights. His purpose is to be the hero they need before they've had time to become the heroes themselves. He gives the reader (and characters) hard evidence that no matter how important the hobbits' journey may be, they are simply not ready for it. And then, having served his role by guiding the hobbits to the road, he leaves, forcing the hobbits to try to adapt to this dangerous new world. Skipping the entire journey, as in the original movie version, creates the vibe that these are already capable heroes, no matter how overwhelmed they feel. Rescuing themselves from terrible danger, as in the extended version, emphasizes this even further.
Yes, Aragorn could have taken the place of Bombadil, saving them from the willow and guiding them safely across the barrow downs. But, introducing him straightaway as a hero, the hobbits would have grown dependent on him rather than having to determine whether or not he could be trusted to help. They wouldn't have grown to exhibit the independence necessary to send Frodo to Mordor alone and rouse the ents of Fangorn against Isengard.
So, sure. It could have been a ranger. It could have been an entwife. It could have been Gandalf or Glorfindel, or any number of other characters who then either betrayed them or had to leave. But they needed to see how dangerous the world outside the Shire was, and that they would have to grow to handle it.
Gimli did have that speedrun exposition line during the first scene with the trio: "Three days and nights pursuit. No food, no rest. No sign of our quarry, but what bare rock can tell!" which I guess at least catches the audience up without using up more than a few seconds.
Exactly! So it's pretty much up to the viewers... would we rather have a much much longer compilation of scenes showing the three days pursuit? Or is this one liner enough to fill us in? Personally, I think it's enough!
I agree it's sufficient
Very well said to all (before this) on this thread. I remember feeling conflicted when I watched this montage in the cinema.
Now I don't really know how much you think Grima's lust for Eowyn is "added fluff for the film". The book includes this intricate desire from Wormtongue.
Gandalf says: What was the promised price? When all the men were dead, you were to pick your share of the treasure, and take the woman you desire? Too long have you watched her under your eyelids and haunted her steps.'
Éomer grasped his sword. 'That I knew already,' he muttered.
So of course there is some substance in the fluff.
One geographic continuty error that happens in the movie is in the famous (and memed) "They're taking the hobbits to Isengard" scene, Legolas says "The Uruks turn north-east." before his mentioned line. This is wrong as from where they are located, in the Eastemnet, not too far from Parth Galen and the Falls of Rauros, Isengard is actually south-west, NOT north-east.
It's kind of baffling that they'd include that line at all, since they're heading west, meaning the Uruk-hai would either have turned to the northwest if not simply just northward. The only way they would be turning east is if they ran right past Isengard and then made a u-turn for some reason.
@@MrJakeypakey To slightly play devil's advocate they would potentially have to go south-west to cross the fords of Isen and then turn directly north to get to Isengard. So a sharp turn isn't completely out of the question. But obviously we'd have to see them cross the river first so it still makes no sense.
In which case it becomes inexplicable that they end up on the outskirts of Fangorn ;)
@eddyd63 But still they have to go west and not east even if they crossed River Isen. It's only north and south that have been switched around AKA latitude, the longitude remains the same.
@@MrJakeypakey @mevb Yer it doesn't work in reality, I don't even get why that error occurred
It is actually confirmed in the book that Wormtongue was after Eowyn. It is mentioned by Gandalf when he and the three companions confront Wormtongue and help Theoden.
Thanks for pointing this out!
This too, I remember something about Grima encountering Eowyn sitting by Theodred's body and trying to convince her to marry him or spend her life alone. Something similar to the scene in the movie where Theodred hasn't died yet I think.
They removed 90% of it probably because Viggo broke his foot kicking a helm.
While deflecting a super-sharp dagger with an even super-sharper sword.
@@PiscatorLager
Prop blades are not sharp by design except for where they need to be to demonstrate sharpness in specific shots.
This is basic set safety with weapons to reduce risk of injury and therefore to keep their insurance premiums low.
(yes film makers take out insurance for this stuff)
@@mnomadvfx I had hoped my exaggerations made the irony clear enough
@@PiscatorLager Text is a poor format for sarcasm, sadly
Im sorry i am not familiar with that occurrence. Please elaborate!
Karl Urban played Eomer Perfectly.
Looking back this was an all time great cast. One of the greatest ever assembled.
Everyone in the trilogy played their part perfectly.
I cant believe lord of the rings came out before riddick... I could of swore I remember seeing him as vaanko before eomer. But I was so wrong lol
his spear throw is just *chefs kiss*
I always think of Xena when I see him. He played Cesar and Cupid.
Some points here:
First, I agree the condensed chase is good, and the areal landscape shots with the glorious fellowship theme music open up the whole movie in an awesome way, at the same time introducing the three characters into the Two Towers.
Second, Eomer is hard done by both in terms of plot and screen time. A shame he was cut from all the Edoras and Helms Deep scenes.
Third, in terms of location, the landscape of Rohan was supposed to be flat, not beautifully newzealandish.
As far as the flat plains go, I noticed that as well. Not sure why I didn’t mention it. Probably cause I actually like the New Zealand scenery anyway, so no complaints here. 😂
@@factorfantasyweeklyIn idaho that would count as a flat plain, but then again I am a potato. God bless
If anyone is interested, after they release the Hunt For Gollum they will release its immediate sequel The Hunt For Farmer Maggot's Lost Carrots.
A better idea would be the hunt for Bill the Pony.
Both please
@@keithtorgersen9664 Why not both?
Isn't it obvious? They eloped, jumped a boat to the west, and live happily ever after ;)
@gregmason, they’re cousins. 🤦♂️
If nothing else, the greatest thing Jackson ever did was cast Andy Serkis as Gollum, who then narrated all of the audio books of The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings, and after having read those many, many times in paper, got to listen to Serkis narrate them all and not only do his famous Gollum voice, but absolutely nail every single character in the books including Gandalf and the sing-songy Tom Bombadil and made probably the best version of Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit ever created. Highly recommend.
One important thing that was left out at the beginning, was that Aragorn says in the books that tracking these Uruk-Hai should not have been as difficult as it was proving to be. The trio realizes that Saruman is lending some sorcery to aid the Uruk-Hai in their speed and hindering the pursuers by producing a "weariness that is in the heart, and not the limb".
Doesnt Aragorn say something like ”something gives speed to these creatures. Sets them against us”? Not sure. Long since I saw it.
Also Legolas mentions that "they run as if the very whips of their masters were behind them."
It is made evident by Aragorn and Legolas that there is magic at work giving the uruks speed and advantage.
Gríma did want Eowyn's hand in marriage, that's why he got into Saruman's service i the first place, though this is confirmed later after Théoden is healed from Saurman's inflence and he gives Wormtongue to either ride with him to war to prove his loyaltiy or to go back to his master Saruman. This is also the scene where Eomer's line "What was his promised prize, Gríma? When all the men are dead you get a part of the treasure?", though I forgot who says it in the book but it could be Aragorn, Théoden or Gandalf who says it.
Jackson is often on a hiding to nothing with the scenes in these movies. Purists critique him for removing scenes without thinking that the movies would end up being 9 hours long each. There was also criticism that the movies were too long. I feel he had to make intelligent compromises and he did well all things considered.
Having read the books at least 2 and maybe 3 times by the times the movies came out, I think he did the best he could with an impossibly long "script". He did the opposite with the Hobbit, stretching MAYBE 2 movies into 3. All In all I am not bitter, he did the best to give us Tolkein as he saw it.
@@gregmason2434 I can't agree more
No issue with taking stuff out, as film makers do that with adaptations all the time. Where I take issue with Jackson is when he then proceeds to add in about an hour of unneccessary filler, and when he also changes beloved characters for no reason whatsoever. It would be like if, in Shawshank Redemption, Darabont added 35 minutes of extra material unrelated to the original story, and made Andy Dufresne into an arrogant @$$hole to boot.
And yet the extended cut included things THAT WEREN'T IN THE FRICKIN BOOKS!
Tell me the logic in the scene with the Witch King breaking Gandalf's staff at Minas Tirith?!
What's your explanation for that "intelligent compromise" beyond it looks cool?
@@mnomadvfx it wasn't just the exteneded cut where that BS occurred. The Warg Attack before Helms Deep, the nonsense with Arwen going to the Havens and having that vision, Pippin lighting the beacon, Faramir dragging Frodo and Sam to Osgiliath and encounteting the Nazgul. All scenes which added to the runtime that weren't in the books, added nothing to the narrative and actually undermined very important characters. I get so tired of people defending Jackson's trilogy. I do wonder if the success of the first film went to his head or something?
The scream from Aragon was real . When the actor kicked the orc helmet he broke a couple toes.🧝♂️🧙♂️🤴
A marathon is 26 miles. Aragorn and Legolas managing to run over 5 marathons during a three day period is... understandable, given the power of elves. But Gimli? Surprised he didn't drop dead halfway through the first day, especially with all that armor.
Yea I’m not sure how he survived. 😂
Dwarves are very resilient. Aulë made them like this to endure Melkor's attacks.
Tolkien's dwarves were certainly capable of such heroic action, but they're not going to enjoy it. (And they'll likely make sure you're aware of the fact as well.) They weren't made from the same stuff humans and elves were.
I am pretty sure they were aided by Lembas.
Surely an impressive accomplisment, but consider the orcs !. They covered a far greater distance in a shorter time, while carrying weapons, provisions and prisoners. And, in the end, were able to fight a running battle against cavalry.
Not sure if anyone else mentioned it. Grima's "Who knows what you have spoken to the darkness" speech came from a scene after Pelennor Fields when Eowyn is healing, spoken by either Gandalf or Aragorn (or Faramir). A herald to her courage and torment. When Jackson has Grima deliver the lines it is outright creepy and lends to the theme that he wants her.
Tolkien: Legendary classic
Jackson: Magnificient interpretation
Amazon: Absolute trash
Hear hear!!!!
Agreed, other than all the changes in the Gondor arc in return of the king. For the sole reason, they would have upset Tolkien.
The weird forgetting that Aragon gives the hobbits Dunedain long knifes to make up for skiping the barrows in the movies, that they seem to forget about is also weird.
I enjoy watching Rings of Power.
Absolutely Jackson's changes here were for the most part very good. If I wanted a little more realism with finding Merry's brooch and maybe a little more realism about the children's mother (even just SOME unlikely way she might've hidden/survived), I can forgive them for time. Well done Mr. Director, you captured this portion of the book expertly for film!
I don't mind comic relief for Gimli … I wish they'd not cut a few more of the moments that would've balanced the comedy a bit more. Gimli is a freakin' badass, not a pretender or a clown. Make him funny, sure, but I wanted to see him be the stout warrior he is meant to be as well. Too many of THOSE scenes were cut for time.
I assumed that a group of Rohan's men headed for Helm's Deep came by after the children rode off and took the mom with them. Remember, there were already a large number of people at Helm's Deep when the group from Edoras got there.
This makes sense! Especially in book format… I guess what I get hung up on for the film is that as the children are riding away they look back and the village is pretty much being burned down and plundered at that moment. So unless the Rohirrim showed up literally right when the scene cuts away, I don’t think they would have gotten there in time. Perhaps some of the villagers snuck off or hid in time and weren’t found. 👀
@@factorfantasyweekly Perhaps the reunion of mother and children could've also been a visual representation of Helm's Deep being a (or the only) place of hope and refuge against Isengard? "Even if there's not much hope, hope isn't completely gone" kind of thing.
Wasn't there a mention in the additional "making of" material on the dvds that there was an incident involved with the blazing village.
@@factorfantasyweekly I always understood the scene as expressing that the women of Rohan are fighters, too, and many have shields and swords to use - which is certainly mentioned in the book. So the mother was almost certainly not alone, or defenceless, at that point. The destruction of the village probably means there was a fight in which some of those staying to defend it were slain, but others would have escaped the slaughter and found their way to Helm's Deep after fighting a rearguard action. We're shown a snippet of one of the survivors, rather than one who fell, because that is the style of storytelling common in Hollywood movies.
@@factorfantasyweekly well, she was a local, so maybe she knew the land well enough to avoid the attackers. And the kids went all the way to Edoras and then back to Helm's Deep, she'd only have to go about a third that distance to reach Helm's Deep.
I was never quite happy that they turned Gimli into the laughing stock of the crew. Yeah it was kind of funny, but Gimli for years was my favorite character and I detested PJs treatment of him. Elves out-drinking Dwarves? Yeah right, does anyone remember that Dwarves were made from STONE? How do you get STONE drunk? In Hobbit we find that Elves can't even handle the wine made by the humans of Laketown when Bilbo manages to sneak 13 Dwarves past Thingol's drunken crew that are supposed to see that the wine-casks get back to Laketown. Elves who have only been drinking the dregs of those casks.
I believe Saruman's burning of Fangorn is pointed out when Pippin and Merry coerce Fangorn to take them towards Isengard while supposedly taking them back towards home. It's Fangorn seeing Saruman's destruction of Fangorn forest that brings the Ents to war.
If I remember accurately the novel points out that Grima is trying to unsuccessfully woo Eowyn by suggesting his fortunes are bound to improve, and unless she binds her fortunes to his (IE marries him), hers are bound to end in loneliness now that her betrothed is dead. - Something like that anyways. Admittedly it's been too long since my last reading.
Fangorn seeing it? You mean Treebeard?
@@DraconimLt Treebeard essentially is Fangorn. It's one of his "many names."
@@JerseyWolf really? So the Forest is named after him, and means Treebeard Forest? Weird! Didn't know that one!
@@DraconimLt Well it's a bit of mix of Sindarin words. Fang means bearded and Gorne means tree. So essentially his name reflects exactly what he would look like to the elves. The rest of the forest would match given how thick and ancient it is.
You've got me hooked on this journey with you, man.
Great job. Your videos are edited and put together very well! Hope to see this channel continue to rise in the fantasy scene!
Thanks for your support! Welcome aboard. 🫡
The one major complaint that I have about PJ's version is that he removed relationship development between Eomer and Theoden. I love that part from the book where Theoden says something like "I'm going to call you my son from now on". And I'm pretty sure that this is right after he released him from the jail. (Unfortunately my mother don't want to give me my books back, so I can't check that myself). And also that scene when he signals that Eomer will be his heir to the throne. Just how loyal Eomer was to both Rohan and Theoden when he wasn't under the influence of Saruman and wormtongue and didn't held any grudges towards Theoden for locking him up in jail... Well, at least PJ kept his relationship with Eowyn in the films.
The film telling was, I thought as I watched and now, pretty close to perfect. The story was NOT about Rohan; it merely included it. As Boyens has often said, the movies were about Frodo and Sam. Anything that didn't directly support their story had to be looked at. If JRRT had a fault, it was a complete inability to edit himself, and the publisher had no interest at all in doing so; he was a formidable figure that few editors would care to stand up to. He included much in the books that he knew was just asking the reader to humor him; he said as much in many of the letters published. While this part of the story is fine in writing, it would have been a disaster in a movie. Too many new characters (with very similar names as well) with a fairly small bit of story spread between them-it would have confused viewers, and lost them completely.
As those who have worked their way through all of the variations of these tales JRRT created (thanks to his son) will know, Tolkien often wrote the same story in very different ways, with different characters and events. The STORY matters, not the detail. I think he loved the idea of leaving incompatible variants of stories; this is much like how real legends and histories evolve. I think he'd have fully understood the film versions. He may even have wished he had though of many of the changes himself.
On the theme of a story changing without altering the story, JRRT himself would give oral presentations of his writings that were obviously shortened and even changed in major details so that the story would remain the same in that shorter medium. Exactly as the makers of the film did.
To anyone reading this far who has only read the published LOTR, you owe it to yourself to dig into Christopher Tolkien's History of Middle Earth series. There is so much more to be had.
Thank you random stranger - I will
There were obvious differences in the LOTR movies that did and did not occur in the Trilogy. This is understandable.
Small changes and even large omissions due to production restrictions and the audience consisted of alot of folks who never read the books.
On the other hand, the Hobbit was an entertaining set of movies that only vaguely followed the book and included dramatic changes in the storyline meant to pander to a "movie" audience without regard to any limitation of being in any way "faithful" to the book..
Gimli was at a loss for words and overwhelmed by his encounter with Galadriel.. who wouldn't be?
In the Hobbit films, there was a love story with an Elf and a Dwarf.. No.. just no.. at least not in a Tolkien based story.
Make a cartoon based upon the imagination of the creator that includes unrequited love between a bear and a tiger.. fine.. might be a lesson there..
Dwarf and Elf in Tolkiens amazing world? No...
It's not sexist or "racist" or anything like that..
It's just "no"..
Just my 2 bits..
Be Well!! 😃
This is the most absurd take ever, lmao
@@pyropulseIXXI Absurd is when people say "lmao" when there wasn't a joke and no one is laughing. :rolleyes:
So what I get out of it is…
They’re taking the Hobbits to Isengard.
To Isengard?
@@ErwinPommel
What did you say?
@@rong1924 They're taking the hobbits to Isengard?
To Isengard gard gard
Just binged this entire series up to this point. Loving it, my dude. Keep up the goated work!
Awesome! 🙏🏼 Thanks for watching, and welcome to the community!
Cutting the chase was definitely the right choice, though I would have preferred if the cuts showed the passage of time more (but that is a constant issue with the trilogy). Removing Pippin's agency is a much worse offense, and other changes and unnecessary additions begin to pile up. The two children are just cheap, clichéd, saccharine plot device. It's 125 miles from Isen to Edoras, a message of such importance would require a tough courier with great stamina to ever hope to reach the place at a time when it would still be relevant. Those children needed to go to Edoras so that Éowyn could be mothering them (because that's what the highest-ranking women at court totally do) and later provide that implausible, tear-jerking reunion.
Also, Théodred: book Théodred is Éomer's senior by over a decade, a man grown and an accomplished warrior, not a kid barely out of his teens. This is probably not an important change but I don't understand why they didn't cast someone more age-fitting. In connection with the overdone change to Théoden's exterior, it looked especially jarring.
I agree about Pippin, the children did nothing for me just time wasted. I did miss the discusion between the chasing group, it ads to the tension, slow growth of friendship and Aragorns character. The chases looked like a pretty fun jog for Legolas and Aragorn, like it was just hard for Gimli because he's short.
He doubts himself a lot in the books, in the movies he just knows the right choises.
Just wanted to say that i just found your channel this morning, and you have earned my sub in less than 3 videos! I have been a fan of The Hobbit and LOTR since literally before I can remember. The first book my dad read to me (other than like The Pokey Little Puppy) was The Hobbit, when I was like 3. And it was also the first book I read on my own when I was about 5. So Middle Earth holds a very special place in my heart. Thank you for treating my "home away from home" with such respect and reverence. Especially with how much the lore and world have been disrespected and twisted to try to shove in modern day politics and "correct" various viewpoints and characters. But I won't get started on THAT rant here, lol! Amyway, great video, awesome series, and amazing channel. Keep up the fantastic work, and I'll keep coming back to watch it!
A run thats lasts half the middle book was an outrageous omission.
Devil's advocate here ... the first time I read LotR, I found myself getting a little bored during the Rohan section and getting all the Eowhatever names confused. This (and Bombadil) were clearly the best things to cut, if you've got to cut something, and the fact that Jackson trimmed this (and cut Bombadil completely) and STILL wound up with like 9 hours of movie meant he DEFINITELY needed to cut something. I don't love a lot of the changes, and I particularly don't love what Jackson did to Gimli, but I think the most egregious change is something that we haven't gotten to yet, namely the fate of Sauruman and Grima.
@ptorq as a kid it WAS the hardest part to read... kept thinking about all the other plots going on.
There might be one timeline change in PJ's The Two Towers. Aragorn tells Eowyn that he is 87 years old. Either: A) The Three Hunters encounter Gandalf the White and reach Edoras before the beginning of March (March 1st being Aragorn's birthday) or B) Peter Jackson has outright changed Aragorn's age, making him 86 years old when he meets Frodo in Bree. Come to think of it, this is really a timeline change either way, isn't it?
Aragorn would have turned 87 in 3018 when the "Great Years" began. Then he turned 88 the next year on the day he met Gandalf the White. So Jackson probably figured out that he was 87 when the movie began and didn't take into account that a new year had started, especially since the new year began during their stay in Rivendell, which Jackson sped up for the movie.
@@Agatha-s4h Technically, the Fellowship had already departed from Rivendell (on 25 December) when the new year began.
I'm in my 60s and frequently get my own age off by a year one way or the other. Certainly Aragorn could make the same mistake in the middle of a pretty awkward conversation, no?
@@OldWhitebelly Conceivably! After all, escaping from the Wood-elves Bilbo seemed to have not noticed that he and the Dwarves reached Lake-town on his own birthday.
Gríma very much had his eye on Éowyn in the book as well. From Chapter 6: The King of the Golden Hall:
“'Nay, Éomer, you do not fully understand the mind of Master Wormtongue,’ said Gandalf, turning his piercing glance upon him. ‘He is bold and cunning. Even now he plays a game with peril and wins a throw. Hours of my precious time he has wasted already. Down, snake!’ he said suddenly in a terrible voice. ‘Down on your belly! How long is it since Saruman bought you? What was the promised price? When all the men were dead, you were to pick your share of the treasure, and take the woman you desire? Too long have you watched her under your eyelids and haunted her steps.’
Éomer grasped his sword. ‘That I knew already,’ he muttered. ‘For that reason I would have slain him before, forgetting the law of the hall. But there are other reasons.’ He stepped forward, but Gandalf stayed him with his hand.
‘Éowyn is safe now,’ he said. ‘But you, Wormtongue, you have done what you could for your true master. Some reward you have earned at least. Yet Saruman is apt to overlook his bargains. I should advise you to go quickly and remind him, lest he forget your faithful service.'"
I'm not too worried upset that Peter Jackson did the hunt across Rohan the way he did it. However, I thought I should let you know you were mistaken about Grima's interest in Eowyn being made up. In the chapter "The King of the Golden Hall," Gandalf says to Grima, "How long is it since Saruman bought you? What was the promised price? When all the men were dead, you were to pick your share of the treasure, and take the woman you desire? Too long have you watched her under your eyelids and haunted her steps." Eomer then states he was ready to slay Grima for his interest in the princess, the Marshal's sister.
The "mother" is played by Robyn Malcolm, in NZ a well known actress.
the actors for legolas, aragorn and gimli were also wounded during shooting, viggo with his broken toe after punting an orcs head (the one we see in the film is when he breaks his foot), orlando with cracked ribs after he fell off a horse and the scale double for gimli had a dislocated knee so its understandable why there were a lot less shots of the chase
Nothing is better than Tolkiens story
They weren't arguing over whether they should sleep; it was a simple discussion
Yes, a simple discussion composed entirely of arguments put forth by different characters for the purpose of persuading the others that it was either better to rest or better to continue. So....they were arguing over whether they should sleep. That's literally what was happening.
While the kids that is sent away by their mom when the Wildmen and Uruks attack Westfold, are made up for the movie (as well as their mom), the boy and the mom's names does come from the books. The boy is named Éothain, which is one of Eomer's men who is surrounding Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli in the upcoming chapters, while the mom is named Morwen (though her name isn't mentioned in the movie, she is listed in the credits, like with Lurtz), who was Théoden's mother (there's also another Morwen in The First Age, mentioned in The Silmarillion).
Well that’s good they at least used authentic names!
@@factorfantasyweekly Only half-good. Éothain is a Rohirric name but Morwen is not, Théoden's mother was from Gondor. Rohirric commoners picking names of foreign-born royalty is highly unlikely.
@@irena4545 but naming a daughter after a woman who married their king (if she was a good queen) seems less unlikely...
@@DraconimLt It is certainly not _entirely_ impossible. However: all of Queen Morwen's (known) descendants had Rohirric names, but a commoner of Westfold, who most likely never even set foot in Edoras, would give their child this foreign name? Highly implausible.
@@irena4545 not really, if the commoner hears good things about that Queen and likes the name.
The Queen's descendents have Rohirric names precisely because they are Rohirric Royalty. It's a dynastic - keeping traditional family style names - thing.
Your videos are very well produced! Stylish and subtle.
And the details you go into are great 👍🏻
Thanks. Next episode please.
Thanks for supporting! There’s plenty to binge if you’re new to the series 👀 check out the playlist.
In the trilogy the long run was a huge tension builder. Major sense of struggle right down to eating lambas bread as they run, its ability to be digested in battle sustaining them without stopping.
Having read all Tolkiens Middle Earth books in the eighties, the best thing i ever did was to not re read them before seing the movies.
My biggest and pretty much only disappointment however was leaving out the battle of Bywater. Feels like the movies never really Finished the storyline.
Yea I reaaaally wish we could’ve seen the true ending.
Please do The Souring Of The Shire . Mankind needs it right now !!!!
Excited to get there at the end of the series! One of my favorite parts of the books.
Having adhd, I very much appreciate how fast you talk and cut. Good work!
bIah bIah mentaI iIIness bIah
Fun fact. Bara Dur was not the other tower. It was Minas Morgul.
loving these videos dude ✌
Wonderful Informative videos on Lord of the rings. Keep it up🙏
Thanks for watching!
Holy cow. This is the first of your videos I've watched. This is episode 21?! Yes! I have so much lore to go through! Oh happy day!
Time to binge 👀 enjoy! Thanks for supporting. 🙏🏼
The chase had this wonderful titanic struggle feel, like the feats of Hercules.
Jackson turned the Ents into Mr. Snuffleupaguss.
I love watching Aragon use his ranger skills in the movie. As we know, rangers lead the way
I just binged all these episodes today and now I’m sad I have to wait for more great job on these
That’s awesome! Glad you’re enjoying them. 🙏🏼
18:05 Well actually he does, it just doesn't come up until later, when Grima is being confronted by Gandalf on the front steps of Edoras after Gandalf healed the King's mind. It's shortly after the King has Eomer released from prison and brought to him, right after Grima offers to stay behind and govern Edoras while the King goes off to war.
-Do we really want two extra minutes of them...?
-Yes
Have you already stated the order in which you'll be doing this movie (Scene by scene or chapter by chapter)? Since the films switch between the merry/pippin, aragorn trio, and frodo/sam storylines so much while the books basically skip frodo's journey for half of a book. I'm ok with either approach but it does make a little difference (occasional timeline reference points being named in the books, the very obvious exclusion of the shelob scenes until next movie, etc). I may have missed you mentioning this at the beginning, but I'm curious
My first time watching your content. Very nicely done, thank you.
I first read The Hobbit and The Trilogy 52 years ago and was hooked. I've read every last scrap of paper I could find which had Tolkien's name attached to it.
I'm sure others have made this observation, but it should be said regardless. While as a purist I could bemoan Jackson's inaccuracies, but it does not for one instant take away from the fact that Jackson is the only person who has successfully brought the LOTR to the screen. In order for him to have a truly comprehensive rendition of Tolkien's masterpiece, he would have had to produce nine movies instead of a mere Trilogy.
Was I disappointed in some areas of Jackson's work? Of course I was. I was greatly disappointed by his treatment of the death of Saruman. It spoiled the ending of The Return of the King. I knew there would be no rousing of the Shire. Does it for one instant take away from the fact that this is a rousing film adaptation? Not in the least.
This is a splendid work. I greatly appreciate your handling of it. Again, thank you.
The thing that always nettled me was Legolas saying "The Uruks turn north-east!" The only way you can get to Isengard by traveling northeast is by being back on the Western side of the Misty Mountains and all the way PAST the gap of Rohan. The Uruks would've been turning southwest at best.
I thought that the most famous line from this scene was "not idly do the leaves of Lorien fall" not "they're taken the hobbits to Isengard"
Jackson simplified the story, the characters and the world. He had to. Mass market movies aimed at kids and casual viewers are very different from dense novels
14:28 is it really unrealistic for a few villagers to manage to hide in the hills/country/caverns while the pillagers are distracted with the business of looting the village and murdering the villagers who are close at hand? I don't think so.
The most impressive part of 135 miles in 3 days is Gimli to be honest. A dwarf, one of the few characters that also routinely wears armour too.
I learn a lot from these videos 😊
When the movie came out i remember clearly my literature teacher mentioning this specific part in this book, its that much of a thing
Which version of the film are you comparing? The theatrical release or one of the extended editions?
Extended only! The extended editions are the only right way to do it. 👀 They’re pretty much the only ones available to watch nowadays.
One big geographic change is where in the books they are chasing the orks through Rohan, but in reality it was New Zealand
omg!! Gollum falls down into Mount Doom not only because he is too focused on the Ring, but also because he betrays his Oath to Frodo on the Ring. Which kinda causes "the good Forces" in middle Earth to intervene and make gollum fall. i remember Gandalf talking about how theres "good at work in middle earth", even tho we cant actually see it.
it took me embarassingly many years to realize that...
This channel is dope. I forgot how much I loved these films. Really need to see the extended additions.
The extended editions are a must! 🙏🏼
It is the only way to watch the movies. You'll never go back!
Eomir? Really? Sounds so jarring every time.
I agree, the entire hunt would have not worked in the movie, just like the scenes of Sam & Frodo in the Emyn Muil would have been unnecessary and too drawn for a film adaption.
"...keep breathing...that's the key...!"
One thing that I never understood WHY Saruman flipped on all of them, those who were meant to be helped by him?
Even as a massive fan of the books, I honestly prefer the Movie's banishment vs imprisonment, it means when Gandalf returns to save the day at Helms Deep, it's Eomer who we know, not Erkenbrand who we've never yet met who shows up. It might be less realistic, but s a story, it reads better. Plus, it acts as an ultimate vindication of Eomer and his men who were still loyal to their king.
The opening scene (after Gandalf versus Balrog and Frodo, Sam & Gollum, of course) of Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli is brilliant. The way the camera focuses on each of them individually as if to say to the audience who has waited a whole year “Remember him? And him? And don’t forget him!” The only film sequel I can equate it to doing it just as brilliantly is the Echo Base scene from the beginning of The Empire Strikes Back. Shots of Luke, Han, Chewbacca, and Leia that are meant to be specific reminders but don’t feel forced.
(No pun intended. 🥸)
Love this!
That thumbnail forced me to start singing "They're taking the hobbits to Isengard!.. the hobbits... the hobbits ... the hobbits..."
😂💀
Can you create a playlist of this series on your channel?
Would love to binge watch it
It should be there already. I have a playlist for Harry Potter and a playlist for LOTR! 🙏🏼 Enjoy!
Grima DID have his eye on Eowyn and Eomer knew and threatened to kill Grima because of it. Wormtongue is the kind of man my maternal grandpa would describe as "oily." Sleazy, untrustworthy, sly, not someone you want to spend any time with, not someone who was fit to be around your wife or daughter, Someone who'd give you "the creeeps."
There is no way that Gimli kept up with the fastest pace that Aragorn and Legolas could set. We kind of have to ignore that. To have shown it as reality, it would have been comical, as Aragorn and Legolas would constantly have gotten way out in front of Gimli, and had to sit down and wait for him.
Do you have a recommendation for the best audio book version/narrator, to purchase for each of the books?
I prefer Andy Serkis overall but some people don’t like his style. So the best alternative is Rob Inglis! Rob is a much older style and probably more “Tolkien” ish.
@@factorfantasyweekly thank you sire! I like Andys work on the Silmarillion, but i find it a bit hard to follow, that could just be how the Silmarillion is written but i will check out both!
Ah yes, that might just be the Silmarillion haha you almost need the book to read as you listen. It can get quite confusing.
I still like the book's descriptions better, but I do understand it would never have worked in film format and I agree with Petey's changes...unlike some other things he changed.
Those elves in helms deep had to run even FASTER than these guys lol.
135 miles in three days = 45 miles per day, 72.42 km per day.
6 km per hour is brisk walk, so, if they walked, they were walking 12 hours per day, excluding pauses.
If I had the gumption, I'd organise an ultramarathon race in tribute of this chase 😂
135 miles seems a lot but 3 days & 3 nights is 72 hrs so assuming they ran the whole time that's an average speed of less than 2 mph. Since even Gimli was running faster than that, I think they had time for 1st and 2nd breakfast each day.
You should do a video on the differences for Helm's Deep
You’re wrong about one thing, I would’ve totally watched a 72 hour movie about them hunting Merry and Pippin.
Grimbold at least gets a mention in Return lol
I didn’t like most of the changes here. Cutting down the length of the description of the chase is one thing but the key events both from Merry and Pipin’s perspective and those of Aragorn et al could have been shown by dropping the pointlessly confusing depiction of Saruman building up an army in days which in the story is of stage and takes years (the rebuilding of Isengard is complete when Gandalf arrives the previous summer). The only thing we really need, and are missing, is the clash between the orc scouts and the Eastfold scouts as part of the Merry/Pippin sequence. If Jackson really wanted to show something going on in Rohan then it should have been Eomer receiving his scouts report and a clash with Theoden/Wormtounge over his plan to respond to the orcs. All we need of the death of Theodred is a mention in a conversation. The power dynamics between Theoden/Eomer/Wormtounge needed far more subtle and creative handling in a way that such a limited director as Jackson just can’t handle even though his actors could.
Making the chase scene longer would have made it cinematically boring.
What make a good book and what make a good movie is different, so it was a good decision to shorten it.
Also, I didn't really know how long the chase was, 135 miles in 3 days is impressive, but not super human in any way.
Well trained ancient soldiers often have a maximum of about 30 miles marching per day, but that includes transporting weapons and equipment, including siege weapons.
Running about 45 miles per day is basically on average lightly jogging and still have time to take fair pauses for eating and long nights sleep.
Tracking while doing this add to the impressiveness though.
Also the terrain they traverse, although the terrain in the book seem a bit smoother to travel.
As much as I loved the audio books read by Andy Serkis, I couldn't get through them. I listen to audio books at night while in bed and the volume was not normalised at all. One minute it's super quiet and the next it's speaker blasting as he starts to sing, yet another song. The sad truth is that it's a rough read despite the content of it being incredible. (I await the book purists crying and calling me a "fake fan")
11:38 Uhm... Yes.
I've never heard of someone referring to any of Tolkien's dialogs as "fluff" before.
Damn, 135 miles in three days? When hiking, it’s considered crazy good progress to travel 20 miles per day… most hikers average around 10-12 miles/day.
You say they run day and night for 3 days and cover 120 miles? Average walk speed is like 5 miles per hour. So 3 days of 8h walk.
You changed the title and thumbnail already, or did a video disappear from my feed before I opened it?
I usually test a few different versions in the first few hours to see what resonates best!
@@factorfantasyweekly O.k., I admit to being a bit worried I missed something.
I once quit a job and I walked home about 13 miles in four and half hours.
If they walked at that same pace as I did, they could cover 45 miles in about 15 hours. That leaves 9 hours free, which is plenty for food and rest and sleep...
Then do the same the next day, and then the same thing the third day.
That's a 135 miles with plenty of sleep and resting and feasting in-between....and no running.
It's easy.
How do you pronounce Éomer again?
"Dave"
AY-oh-mer
Homer
For anyone saying the distance and time is not realistic:
If you walk for 15 hrs per day u will (3miles/hr) u will make 135 mi in 3 days.. nothing strange.. armies have done similar things in history many times. No need to run, humans are made to walk for long distances. far more economical than running. King Harold marched his forces, most on foot and in full gear, 185 miles in 4 days. And this after first having marched to Stanford and fighting a war. When humans do manual labor every day we have extraordinary stamina. This is something Tolkien would be very aware of and probably was thinking about when writing this section since his numbers are so similar.
Grima holding the signed warrant is an odd moment - how much of a paper based beurocracy are the Rohirrim expected to have, exactly???
It is weird. The Rohirrim are said in the books not to keep written histories, but preserve their past in song. I suppose they could have picked up some system of written law from Gondor over the years, but it is unlikely.
@@LordVulcanus747 I suspect it was just there as visual shorthand, with little more thought put into it
Interesting point… 😂 never thought of it
Little to none. Having Éomer jailed like in the books and then, say, secretly released by Éowyn and accompanied by his faithful to exile would have made more sense. It would also give Éowyn something in-character to do, instead of mothering the two kids and cooking terrible dinners.
@LordVulcanus747 now I want to see a version where Grima has to sing the banishment to solidify it.
Loving these, thank you! I’m rereading the book and so confused as to why I’m seeing Saruman confronted in the Two Towers sectionby Gandalf when I’m sure it was from ROTK in the film? And he doesn’t die by Wormtongue 😮
Oh yea… once we get to that part there’s gonna be a LOT to unpack. 😂 Thanks for watching!
@@factorfantasyweekly I was about to comment on that whole kerfuffle, but if you're covering it in a future vid I'll say no more.
Oh yea, we’re going scene by scene through ALL the movies! 👀 So we’ll get there.
@MissGelly, in both the film and the book, he does get killed by Wormtongue but the locations are different. I won't spoil the book version too much but the context is about the same, Saruman abuses him and something in Wormtongue snaps, he attacks Saruman.
@@keithtorgersen9664 Thank you.!
The best Trilly ever!!!
I was looking forward to a 72 hour footrace showing every painful mile.
I suppose the theaters wouldn't appreciate a movie with a 3 day run time.
About the kids, the little girl says the brother isn’t to ride the big horse. Implying there are other horses they can ride.
I always kinda thought that was more of a "dad told us never to ride the dangerous horse, we're supposed to learn on the ponies"
135 miles in three days on foot is mid at best, even with all the gear. the best runners can travel well over 400 miles in the same time.
Yes, the new record for the Appalachian Trail is faster than that, and involved maintaining a pace of over fifty miles a day for 41 consecutive days.
Just looked up the self-supported FKT for the Arizona trail and it's like 55+ miles a day. Most hiking plans for the big trails assume you'll hike at least 20 to 30 miles every day for weeks if not months on end.