Hopefully, the Outer Harbor train must never be converted to tram/ light rail. It would be a crazy decision if the Outer Harbor line was downgraded to a tram service.
Finally someone with a decent solution. That outer harbour line is so annoying. It's been keeping me up at night but now I can finally fix it! Thanks Aussie Wirraway!
Taperoo train st is used for the school kids. As there was 3 schools right near it. now only 2. Draper st is also close to and old school. And close to bus route. Osborne st is for the shopping centre. Midlunga st is where the train line turns into 1 line.
Interesting video. In my mind the reason behind the Outer Harbor line not receiving a major upgrade to date has been due to the between upgrading the line as heavy rail and converting it to light rail. As you already know, the main driver of the latter option was to have trams running through the centre of Port Adelaide rather than building around the existing (formerly Commercial Road) station. Like you I believe this line should remain as heavy rail (especially given that its length is similar to the rail distance from Adelaide to Salisbury) and electrified to the same 25kV standard as the Seaford and Gawler lines. Regarding the stations, I believe that some of the disadvantage of closely-spaced stations could be overcome through the improved acceleration of electric stock. Also there is the strong connection that many of these stations have to their local communities: while some stations have become community hubs in their own right (like Woodville and Osborne), others have little that rely on a station to remain in the same position. For the Grange line, I believe that it would be best converted to light rail. My idea would be to extend the tram line from Hindmarsh up Port Road before taking over the Grange alignment. This could be the basis for a tram line to West Lakes (possibly with West Lakes Boulevard rebuilt with a central tramway reservation all the way from Port Road to Westfield), while the line could be diverted around Royal Adelaide Golf Club via Trimmer Parade and Frederick Road. Finally, the line has a large number of level crossings, some of them over major roads. Given the success of the Caulfield-Dandenong grade separation in. Melbourne I believe that an elevated line could be the easiest way to achieve grade separation. This could help remove the barrier that the line presents in some areas (as shown by numerous streets cut by the line) and possibly provide a scenic attraction from travellers, especially on Le Fevre Peninsula with views over the Gulf.
Yes, I certainly agree with your opinions on this. The OH line really just needs more trains, this could even be done without electrification to make the line useful to those beyond Woodville. I don't agree that the grange line should be converted to light rail and run up port road. that's far to much infrastructure overlap in my mind and it would be impossible.
For me I voted agents Labor in the last election due to converting the Outer Habor and Grange lines to tram is a down grade. From Bowden, it take 5 minutes to get in to the city by train, where by tram it take a better part of 20 minutes. Having said that. I am still all for having trams run back and forth from Semaphore to Adelaide via Port Adelaide, but treat it more of a bus upgrade for all bu runs that runs between Adelaide and Le Fevre Peninsula/Semaphore/Port Adelaide. All they have to do is to extend the Entertainment Center tram line down in the middle of Port Road, then snake through Port Adelaide then finishing up in Semaphore. With that in mind, rearrange a good percentage of bus runs that use Port Road and go through Semaphore, and or, Port Adelaide to act as local bus runs that that team up with tram and trains, and build decent size bus interchange along with Grange and Outer Habor lines. Like build, or upgrade a bus interchtange at Grange, Woodvile, Port Adelaide(or Port Docks if that sperline get up again), Glanvile, and Outer Habor.
@@aysty5951 I don't know why they didn't think of that.the existing system for bus 155 or 157 ex West Lakes that serves Grange and Surrounds plus all other points in between via Road into town is a Joke.the only advantage that bus which would then continue onwards as 144 or 147 is direct access to Dulwich,Toorak Gardens,Beaumont and Burnside Village plus all areas up to Glen Osmond.If anything It would free up capacity of existing 110,112,h30 and 288 buses ex West Lakes shops to the city.
Adelaide really does need a train upgrade, I was there in October 2022, the trams on the other hand are great but Im surprised to see diesel passenger trains being used when Perth went totally electric over 30 years ago.
This video is certainly interesting - I definitely agree with your statements regarding station facilities and their need for upgrading (although that has been somewhat fixed since this video was released), but your ideas with the Grange line seem to me to not be the best of choices - I would say the requirement to transfer between lines would mean a dip in already low patronage numbers, which would only be able to be rectified with increased capacity, which you have denied the option. I would propose the Grange line service's operating sphere, but increasing the frequency by the 'Belair' method - including a passing loop or two (might I suggest at Albert Park station) and/or the increase of the double track out of Woodville. 4000s operating the line at electrification would also increase capacity from the 2-car 3000 sets.
Great video as always, just thinking about what you were saying where stations are built to close along the grange line, which I agree, why not convert it into one whole long station, meaning adding more cars to the line
while the increase in trains would help as you said and I very much agree with this point the idea that we should remove some stations is a very poor idea. the outer harbor line is more of a metro than say the Seaford line its purpose is to help soften the amount of distance that would need to be walked. for example is that say you live a km or so out from a station and you're not the fittest person ever the removal of their station would double or triple their walk. and whilst you say it would reduce the time the time to travel the whole route is around 30-45 minutes, this is faster than say the bus or cars. as someone who regularly travels the route, I can say that there are two types of the station, low frequency, midlunga, and high-frequency stations like port Adelaide, Bowden, and Alberton, I think a good compromise is to optimize the stations so for the high-frequency stations they should have toilets, CCTV, and destination boards and low frequency should have CCTV and destination boards. as for the train sizes there just aren't enough cars to have all trains be three cars. there's this train it runs at around 3- 3:30ish to outer harbor and it goes down the line and collects all the high school kids down the line so at each school used stop there's a good 100-150 kids ready to catch the train home and I think that that train needs three cars. however, this video is ok but you need to think about the ramifications of removing a station.
I agree with a lot of your conclusions but I feel they could run the Grange line as a stop all stations service, while allowing all Outer Harbour services to run express to Woodville. And to be honest, I'd go even further with station removal: West Croydon, Woodville Park, Peterhead, Draper, & Midlunga, with realignment of other stations to better suit spacing. In terms of frequency, I see no reason why trains can't run every 10 minutes to Woodville with 20 minute stop-all services alternating beyond Woodville to Grange and Glanville, with a separate 20 minutes express service to Outer Harbour stopping: Adelaide, (possibly Bowden for events), Woodville, Port Adelaide, Glanville, then all stations to Outer Harbour.
Hi Aussie Wirraway Thanks for mentioning the unacceptable close stop spacing on the Outer Harbor line. Also, the Gawler, Seaford and Belair lines have very close stop spacing too. Close stop spacing makes an all stations train service very slow, inefficient and expensive to operate. Given the fact that Adelaide is spread out, faster train services are greatly appreciated to compete against the car. There're various stopping patterns sharing the same track on Adelaide's train network (except for Belair). Ideally, one stopping pattern with all stations must be preferred for simplicity and a hassle free train commute. There were plans from the previous Labor government in 2016 to convert the existing Outer Harbor train line to a tram/ light rail. The tram/ light rail conversion of the Outer Harbor train is stupid as mentioned in this video. Rationalisation of Adelaide's train network is desperately needed by removing excess stops/ stations to increase train average speed (all stations), high capacity signialling, railway crossing removals, upgrading existing stations (with restrooms and bicycle cages) and enhancing connectivity with frequent buses. Pedestrians and bicycle connections are extremely important with faster train services to solve the first and last kilometre problem. Currently the Outer Harbor line has a single track section from Osborne to Outer Harbor. A 30 minute frequency with single track running for the Outer Harbor line is totally unacceptable. The Outer Harbor line should be electrified in the near future with increased stop spacing. Also, a train depot is needed North of Outer Harbor station to allow increased train frequency of 15 mins and operational flexibility.
As you point out all that stuff is generally needed and I'll be making more videos on that stuff for sure in the short term. Every 15 should be the standard between either Adelaide and Glanville/Osborne depending on how the timetabling works out. What's important is that it could be implemented with some new funding and not much else. stabling upgrades are also very needed, there should easily be space to build new ones at Outer harbour or Port Adelaide
@@AussieWirraway, There's plenty of empty land of North East of Outer Harbor station to build a train depot and stabling yard. The SA government should consider funding for a train depot North East of Outer Harbor station. Transport Orientated Development (TOD) needs to happen near train stations for Adelaide's entire train network with connections to pedestrian and cycling infrastructure (active transport). Train station rationalisation with increased stop spacing is greatly needed. The Outer Harbor line has so much potential for TOD as long the line is double tracked throughout with frequent trains (10 - 15 mins all day), increased stop spacing and adequate station shelters. If these measures of TOD, pedestrians, cyclists and buses are implemented with seamless connections to frequent trains, Adelaide's public transport will have substantially higher patronage to cover its operating and maintenance costs. Since the Outer Harbor line is direct in serving Adelaide's North West, it's imperative that development must occur within 2 km of a train station. Outer Harbor, Seaford and Gawler lines are the most useful train services of Adelaide's rail network. The branch lines of Grange and Flinders with single track running are hopeless. For me, train stations should be 2 km - 5 km apart with train average speeds of 50 km/h - 65 km/h for an all stations train service.
Problem with removing close together stations is that people will be up in arms no matter which way you go. The VR tried to do this on the Clifton Hill line at Collingwood which is only a couple of hundred meters or so to the next station and there was this huge outcry and the VR backed down.
Close it north of port Adelaide, electrify it south of port Adelaide Also close the Grange line and Belair line south of Mitcham and electrify that north of mitcham
I went to Outer Harbor in 1979 and I noted how there was one platform at the terminus where the down track looped in a balloon to form the up track. Years later I was disappointed to see the balloon track removed and the line cut back to the platform and was a simple set of points to the up track. A similar line is the Penfield No. 3 line which had two tracks terminate in a balloon. It serviced a quarry from memory, probably closed. Another innovation which impressed me was the temporary platforms which is like a grandstand the length of the train with a set of steps from train height down to the ground. Not sure if they are still used. Be hard with wheelchairs and people can fall down the steps.
OH won't be electrified for at least a decade. That timetable was basically set once all of the exisitng DMUs had their engines refurbished in recent years to extend thei life by 10-12yrs. So think early 30s for electrification to be done on OH. Also, I wouldn't be merging stations on the inner part of the line. There is huge scope for greater pop density in the next 30 years along the OH & Port rd corridor with new high density infill developments as we've seen at around Bowden and St Clair. Access to local stations on the inner part of the line will be important in the future. An ideal service pattern would be all stop to Glanville (existing platform capacity ) with 15min minimum freq., & semi express to OH stopping at Woodville, St Clair, Pt Adelaide and all stop from Glanville with 20 min freq.
Your point about small stations close to one another I would say is a good thing. Having stations close by to residents so they can walk is much better then having stations so far apart that it requires a major car park to go with new station is a bad outcome. To me the solution is simple and that is to convert the outer harbour line to light rail from the entertainment centre. Certainly facilities should be updated at these stations but light rail is the way to go.
Light Rail means destroying all platforms, ripping up all the track and replacing it with standard gauge, then rebuilding the platforms, then electrification. So quite expensive. Your first point is wrong. Imagine the time savings (I would be thinking 20 minutes), and the inconvenience for passengers is minimal (A bit of a walk). The time savings make it much more competitive with car. Plus, proper bus-rail connections (Like in Perth) are also great and make up for less stations.
My personal opinion on the Woodville-Kilkenny station dilemma would be to simply have fast trains skip over one of the stations, choosing the more patronaged station, with commuter trains still stopping at either station
The Woodville Park and Killkeny are the Closest Station and the Same thing as Mawson Lakes and Greenfields are the Same thing to. But the Mawson Lakes has the Information Screen without Greenfields.
No stations on the outer Harbor line need to be removed, people use them. Public transport is there for the public, re-opening the Port Dock line would be beneficial
Undoubtedly I'll make a video on it one day, but the ideally the line would be fully electrified, and through the tunnel sections trains could operate on only battery power. The line really needs full electrification due to it's very steep grade to allow faster journeys in trains. hopefully one day the line could be extended to Mount Barker one day. The line should also receive at least 20 minute frequency at least in the near future, more crossing loops would however be needed for that level of service
@@AussieWirraway Restoring train services to Mount Barker will require a signficant reroute of the mainline away from Blackwood and Belair to create a faster and shorter service that doesn't slowly wind through the hills. It's part of the reason why the Bridgewater line closed, the trains were just too slow compared to driving along the SEF. The Belair line could still run in it's current form, but the mainline and trains to Mount Barker would run on a different route.
@@Nick-kz6dg whole health agree. For a train service to Mt Barber, there needs to be a totally new line, away from the old steam age line that for political reasons was to serve as many Hills towns as possible and total unsuitable for a model higher speed train service. When ever people talk about a service to Mt Barker there is talk how to route passenger and freight trains together and never about a new line free of freight trains.
Very interesting and i also agree but unfortunately the current government have shown very interest in upgrading the Outer Harbour line and will continue to be neglected under the current government that are too much of a of tight ass which is quite sad really if look at it in reality.
If a train station is more than a 10 min walk away from home, I would definitely drive instead especially for short trip. There are a lot of short trips originating or ending at Port Adelaide Station on the Outer Harbour Line because a high proportion of residents along the line are able to walk to a station within 5 min. Total car free lifestyle is made possible. What they need to do to improve operational efficiency is to electrify the line and purchase EMUs with high acceleration and deceleration ability. It will significantly reduce journey time to the city without removing stations and short trip users.
Hi There has been plans by Renewal SA for the extension of the Seaford line to Aldinga. I assume there will be two train stations at Maslin Beach and Aldinga. Can you please find the alignment of the Seaford line to Aldinga and the placement of train stations. I can't find the exact alignment from Seaford to Aldinga; Your help is greatly appreciated.
I am planning on making a video on it eventually, i am generally aware of where the corridor and stations are supposed to be but I'll have a long search through renewal SA's database too
Very interesting & you make some good points, but I think you need to slow down the speed of your overhead scanning as it was too hard to work out where the train was running & which stations you wanted to cut out...😀
I wonder if it is better to extend the Glenelg tram line to Grange and then convert the Grange line into a tram service that terminates at Woodville, I used a station in Stockholm that light rail converged on a separate platform at one of their metro stations and all you needed to do was swap. This has the benefit of extending coverage along the coast instead of buses and the trams are probably better suited to a lower capacity line.
Trams or trains on a low capacity feeder line are extremely expensive to operate. A bus would be far cheaper to operate as a feeder line when compared to trams or trains.
when the southern suburbs was electrified they complained that the pillars were visible from their houses... I lived next to a brewery and inside a industrial park, lived far away from amenities.... they should stop being NIMBY and be more of a "well, I do hope they add more value to the services other than the dollar to our properties" The alternative is gridlock,
Ok no hate but it would be really cool if they got trams down at semaphore that goes up through Westlake and then goes to the city, it would be so convenient for me and others in the Area because our closest train station is Ethelton. Also great vid btw
Since you have so much info., how about looking into the line from Adelaide to Mt. Barker & Seaford to Sellicks Bch., as there is so much housing development going on now.
Hay aussie yes this would be a great Idea but how do you think thay will do it and get people to work on time that work in the port area and a other whats Adelaides 1st worst rail line as in thumbnail and would love to see the Blair line one day go to mt barker
@@Adelaide_Transit, We'd definitely need a brand new train line in serving Adelaide's south eastern suburbs. Extending the Belair line to Bridgewater with that indirect/ garbage route alignment means that train travel along the steep hills can't be faster than cars along the direct South Eastern freeway. Trains along the Adelaide Hills can't safely travel at high speeds of 100 - 160 km/h on railway tracks on hilly terrain combined with tight twists and turns. In addition, the Belair line has a large number of single track (broad gauge - 1600 mm) sections between Goodwood to Bridgewater which limits train frequency to only 30 minutes per direction. Freight trains run on a single track (standard gauge - 1435 mm) which parallels the Belair trains between Goodwood to Belair then Bridgewater. These reasons above means that extending the Belair train from Belair to Bridgewater with the existing alignment is an unviable option.
yeah I saw that pretty recently, good they're going in but it doesn't change the fact the entire station is pretty garbage and needs to go. At least for the next few years it's excellent progress.
@@AussieWirraway I agree with removing some stations such towards the end but I would keep both Draper and taperoo even though there very close to each other as the walking route between the two is extremely inconvenient and dangerous at night time also I would electrify the entire line including Grange and yeah make Grange trains depart from woodville five or so minutes after any outer harbour train gets to woodville and with increasing services I totally agree with that but keep the current timetable and slot the extra services in and also with woodville park and Kilkenny scrap both stations and build a new Kilkenny where the current one is as it's a bit rundown (but keep the TARDIS of course)
Interesting video. What about a metro line like Sydney is doing. Yes it has a higher cost but in the long term it will be far more cheaper. Also switching from broad to standard guage will attract federal contributions for the cost. (SA often misses out on federal infrastructure money).
For me, "if" the Grange/Outer Habor lines does go elextric. It would be a good time then to lower the whole section of between Kilkenny(You Bastards) station and Woodville stations on the outer Habor line, plus between Woodville and Port Road on the Grange. As part of this, rebuild the Kilkenny and Woodville stations while doing away with Woodvile Park station. In doing so Port Road, Woodvile Road, and Kilkenny Road would allow traffic to better flow without having to deal with trains. And if Labor still wish to have a tram line to Port Adelaide and Semaphor, they can still do so by extending the tram line from the Entertainment Center down the middle of Port Road, snake through Port Adelaide, then on to Semaphor. In doing so the state gov will be upgrading the bus network for busses that runs between Adelaide, Port Adelaide, and Peninsula. As in still have bus runs that cross Port Road, in port Adelaide, and Peninsula, but have it more of a local bus runs that are better tied up with both tram and the train lines.
Why the hell is there so many platforms at Glanville? Shouldn't Port Adelaide be the main station on the entire line? and what's the attraction with Outer Harbor? I think they should terminate the service at North Haven.
Outer Harbor station has a large port nearby which are used for passenger cruise ships (1st link below) and cargo ships. The global cruise ship industry is struggling so much during the Covid outbreak, that it may not recover again; this makes the Outer Harbor station fairly useless. Within 1.2 km - 1.7 km of Osborne station, there's a maritime industry (2nd link below) which builds warships and submarines for the Australian military. Glanville station serves train passengers going to the highly popular Semaphore Beach. www.flindersports.com.au/shipping-cruise/passenger-information/ www.asc.com.au/about-us/ The Outer Harbor train is so underultised throughout the day where 2 carriage 3000 class DMU trains regularly run empty with a 30 minute frequency. There needs to be big incentives by the South Australian government to upgrade the Outer Harbor line and encourage more passengers to use that train service.
@@michaeleverett1479 100% agreed. I'm a Melburnian however I'd like to see some improvement projects on Adelaide's metro train network. And I'd like to see a Suburban train to Virgina and eventually to Two Wells if there's enough demand. Virginia is now populated enough for a passenger train service.
@@jacintaedwards1123 Mostly outer harbor for the cruise ship demand a handful of times a year for tourists is what it exists for.I lived through the Upgrade of Gawler services so put up with city to Elizabeth and back services on the J1 bus for as long as possible for the most part.Off topic what stuns me even though the train is back is why that bus is often packed like a sardine.
obviously the population density along the Port line makes this line marginal at best. A brave state government would convert it into a Bus Rapid Transit system that is more efficient and flexible. Seems like successive state governments are letting this line rot away to the point that a major investment will be required, thats when the bus lobby will get their way.
Yep your right, buses are flexible...they can accommodate multiple bikes prams wheelchairs gophers, and at the same time move massive amounts of ambulant people....oops did I say buses? I meant to say trains can, buses can not move large amounts of people, private bus operators do not run back up buses in peak hour as they did under public ownership...its eats into their profits.
It's a crazy suggestion to convert the Outer Harbor train line to tram/ light rail or busway/ BRT. Leave the Outer Harbor line as a train/ heavy rail and upgrade the train services in the long term through electrification, new electric trains, increase stop spacing and removing railway crossings. The upgraded Outer Harbor line would be a very popular like the NE O'bahn if the trains can achieve high average speed between stations with adequate enough urban development near stations (1 - 3 km), connectivity to cross city bus lines on top of bicycle cages.
The electric trains have much faster accelleration, its just the "waiting game" until it eventually happens.. For the short-distance stops, the line could alternate with which one it stops at, which would work with the more consistent timings.
Very interesting! I fully agree with the need to upgrade the line and electrify it. Hopefully these ideas do get built in some way shape or form!
Hopefully, the Outer Harbor train must never be converted to tram/ light rail. It would be a crazy decision if the Outer Harbor line was downgraded to a tram service.
Finally someone with a decent solution. That outer harbour line is so annoying. It's been keeping me up at night but now I can finally fix it! Thanks Aussie Wirraway!
Taperoo train st is used for the school kids. As there was 3 schools right near it. now only 2.
Draper st is also close to and old school. And close to bus route.
Osborne st is for the shopping centre.
Midlunga st is where the train line turns into 1 line.
Interesting video. In my mind the reason behind the Outer Harbor line not receiving a major upgrade to date has been due to the between upgrading the line as heavy rail and converting it to light rail. As you already know, the main driver of the latter option was to have trams running through the centre of Port Adelaide rather than building around the existing (formerly Commercial Road) station. Like you I believe this line should remain as heavy rail (especially given that its length is similar to the rail distance from Adelaide to Salisbury) and electrified to the same 25kV standard as the Seaford and Gawler lines.
Regarding the stations, I believe that some of the disadvantage of closely-spaced stations could be overcome through the improved acceleration of electric stock. Also there is the strong connection that many of these stations have to their local communities: while some stations have become community hubs in their own right (like Woodville and Osborne), others have little that rely on a station to remain in the same position.
For the Grange line, I believe that it would be best converted to light rail. My idea would be to extend the tram line from Hindmarsh up Port Road before taking over the Grange alignment. This could be the basis for a tram line to West Lakes (possibly with West Lakes Boulevard rebuilt with a central tramway reservation all the way from Port Road to Westfield), while the line could be diverted around Royal Adelaide Golf Club via Trimmer Parade and Frederick Road.
Finally, the line has a large number of level crossings, some of them over major roads. Given the success of the Caulfield-Dandenong grade separation in. Melbourne I believe that an elevated line could be the easiest way to achieve grade separation. This could help remove the barrier that the line presents in some areas (as shown by numerous streets cut by the line) and possibly provide a scenic attraction from travellers, especially on Le Fevre Peninsula with views over the Gulf.
Yes, I certainly agree with your opinions on this. The OH line really just needs more trains, this could even be done without electrification to make the line useful to those beyond Woodville. I don't agree that the grange line should be converted to light rail and run up port road. that's far to much infrastructure overlap in my mind and it would be impossible.
For me I voted agents Labor in the last election due to converting the Outer Habor and Grange lines to tram is a down grade. From Bowden, it take 5 minutes to get in to the city by train, where by tram it take a better part of 20 minutes. Having said that. I am still all for having trams run back and forth from Semaphore to Adelaide via Port Adelaide, but treat it more of a bus upgrade for all bu runs that runs between Adelaide and Le Fevre Peninsula/Semaphore/Port Adelaide. All they have to do is to extend the Entertainment Center tram line down in the middle of Port Road, then snake through Port Adelaide then finishing up in Semaphore. With that in mind, rearrange a good percentage of bus runs that use Port Road and go through Semaphore, and or, Port Adelaide to act as local bus runs that that team up with tram and trains, and build decent size bus interchange along with Grange and Outer Habor lines. Like build, or upgrade a bus interchtange at Grange, Woodvile, Port Adelaide(or Port Docks if that sperline get up again), Glanvile, and Outer Habor.
The Grange line needs to routed to Westlakes shopping centre, probably best above the road system.
would be cool to have an underground subway system from grange line to westlakes! ahah imagine tho
@@aysty5951 I don't know why they didn't think of that.the existing system for bus 155 or 157 ex West Lakes that serves Grange and Surrounds plus all other points in between via Road into town is a Joke.the only advantage that bus which would then continue onwards as 144 or 147 is direct access to Dulwich,Toorak Gardens,Beaumont and Burnside Village plus all areas up to Glen Osmond.If anything It would free up capacity of existing 110,112,h30 and 288 buses ex West Lakes shops to the city.
Adelaide really does need a train upgrade, I was there in October 2022, the trams on the other hand are great but Im surprised to see diesel passenger trains being used when Perth went totally electric over 30 years ago.
This video is certainly interesting - I definitely agree with your statements regarding station facilities and their need for upgrading (although that has been somewhat fixed since this video was released), but your ideas with the Grange line seem to me to not be the best of choices - I would say the requirement to transfer between lines would mean a dip in already low patronage numbers, which would only be able to be rectified with increased capacity, which you have denied the option. I would propose the Grange line service's operating sphere, but increasing the frequency by the 'Belair' method - including a passing loop or two (might I suggest at Albert Park station) and/or the increase of the double track out of Woodville. 4000s operating the line at electrification would also increase capacity from the 2-car 3000 sets.
Great video as always, just thinking about what you were saying where stations are built to close along the grange line, which I agree, why not convert it into one whole long station, meaning adding more cars to the line
while the increase in trains would help as you said and I very much agree with this point the idea that we should remove some stations is a very poor idea. the outer harbor line is more of a metro than say the Seaford line its purpose is to help soften the amount of distance that would need to be walked. for example is that say you live a km or so out from a station and you're not the fittest person ever the removal of their station would double or triple their walk. and whilst you say it would reduce the time the time to travel the whole route is around 30-45 minutes, this is faster than say the bus or cars. as someone who regularly travels the route, I can say that there are two types of the station, low frequency, midlunga, and high-frequency stations like port Adelaide, Bowden, and Alberton, I think a good compromise is to optimize the stations so for the high-frequency stations they should have toilets, CCTV, and destination boards and low frequency should have CCTV and destination boards. as for the train sizes there just aren't enough cars to have all trains be three cars. there's this train it runs at around 3- 3:30ish to outer harbor and it goes down the line and collects all the high school kids down the line so at each school used stop there's a good 100-150 kids ready to catch the train home and I think that that train needs three cars. however, this video is ok but you need to think about the ramifications of removing a station.
I agree with a lot of your conclusions but I feel they could run the Grange line as a stop all stations service, while allowing all Outer Harbour services to run express to Woodville. And to be honest, I'd go even further with station removal: West Croydon, Woodville Park, Peterhead, Draper, & Midlunga, with realignment of other stations to better suit spacing.
In terms of frequency, I see no reason why trains can't run every 10 minutes to Woodville with 20 minute stop-all services alternating beyond Woodville to Grange and Glanville, with a separate 20 minutes express service to Outer Harbour stopping: Adelaide, (possibly Bowden for events), Woodville, Port Adelaide, Glanville, then all stations to Outer Harbour.
only issue about changing trains for Grange line riders is during winter when cold winds blowing and raining
Hi Aussie Wirraway
Thanks for mentioning the unacceptable close stop spacing on the Outer Harbor line. Also, the Gawler, Seaford and Belair lines have very close stop spacing too. Close stop spacing makes an all stations train service very slow, inefficient and expensive to operate. Given the fact that Adelaide is spread out, faster train services are greatly appreciated to compete against the car.
There're various stopping patterns sharing the same track on Adelaide's train network (except for Belair). Ideally, one stopping pattern with all stations must be preferred for simplicity and a hassle free train commute.
There were plans from the previous Labor government in 2016 to convert the existing Outer Harbor train line to a tram/ light rail. The tram/ light rail conversion of the Outer Harbor train is stupid as mentioned in this video.
Rationalisation of Adelaide's train network is desperately needed by removing excess stops/ stations to increase train average speed (all stations), high capacity signialling, railway crossing removals, upgrading existing stations (with restrooms and bicycle cages) and enhancing connectivity with frequent buses. Pedestrians and bicycle connections are extremely important with faster train services to solve the first and last kilometre problem.
Currently the Outer Harbor line has a single track section from Osborne to Outer Harbor. A 30 minute frequency with single track running for the Outer Harbor line is totally unacceptable.
The Outer Harbor line should be electrified in the near future with increased stop spacing. Also, a train depot is needed North of Outer Harbor station to allow increased train frequency of 15 mins and operational flexibility.
As you point out all that stuff is generally needed and I'll be making more videos on that stuff for sure in the short term. Every 15 should be the standard between either Adelaide and Glanville/Osborne depending on how the timetabling works out. What's important is that it could be implemented with some new funding and not much else. stabling upgrades are also very needed, there should easily be space to build new ones at Outer harbour or Port Adelaide
@@AussieWirraway, There's plenty of empty land of North East of Outer Harbor station to build a train depot and stabling yard. The SA government should consider funding for a train depot North East of Outer Harbor station.
Transport Orientated Development (TOD) needs to happen near train stations for Adelaide's entire train network with connections to pedestrian and cycling infrastructure (active transport). Train station rationalisation with increased stop spacing is greatly needed.
The Outer Harbor line has so much potential for TOD as long the line is double tracked throughout with frequent trains (10 - 15 mins all day), increased stop spacing and adequate station shelters. If these measures of TOD, pedestrians, cyclists and buses are implemented with seamless connections to frequent trains, Adelaide's public transport will have substantially higher patronage to cover its operating and maintenance costs.
Since the Outer Harbor line is direct in serving Adelaide's North West, it's imperative that development must occur within 2 km of a train station. Outer Harbor, Seaford and Gawler lines are the most useful train services of Adelaide's rail network. The branch lines of Grange and Flinders with single track running are hopeless.
For me, train stations should be 2 km - 5 km apart with train average speeds of 50 km/h - 65 km/h for an all stations train service.
Problem with removing close together stations is that people will be up in arms no matter which way you go. The VR tried to do this on the Clifton Hill line at Collingwood which is only a couple of hundred meters or so to the next station and there was this huge outcry and the VR backed down.
Close it north of port Adelaide, electrify it south of port Adelaide Also close the Grange line and Belair line south of Mitcham and electrify that north of mitcham
I went to Outer Harbor in 1979 and I noted how there was one platform at the terminus where the down track looped in a balloon to form the up track. Years later I was disappointed to see the balloon track removed and the line cut back to the platform and was a simple set of points to the up track.
A similar line is the Penfield No. 3 line which had two tracks terminate in a balloon. It serviced a quarry from memory, probably closed.
Another innovation which impressed me was the temporary platforms which is like a grandstand the length of the train with a set of steps from train height down to the ground. Not sure if they are still used. Be hard with wheelchairs and people can fall down the steps.
OH won't be electrified for at least a decade. That timetable was basically set once all of the exisitng DMUs had their engines refurbished in recent years to extend thei life by 10-12yrs. So think early 30s for electrification to be done on OH. Also, I wouldn't be merging stations on the inner part of the line. There is huge scope for greater pop density in the next 30 years along the OH & Port rd corridor with new high density infill developments as we've seen at around Bowden and St Clair. Access to local stations on the inner part of the line will be important in the future. An ideal service pattern would be all stop to Glanville (existing platform capacity ) with 15min minimum freq., & semi express to OH stopping at Woodville, St Clair, Pt Adelaide and all stop from Glanville with 20 min freq.
Your point about small stations close to one another I would say is a good thing. Having stations close by to residents so they can walk is much better then having stations so far apart that it requires a major car park to go with new station is a bad outcome. To me the solution is simple and that is to convert the outer harbour line to light rail from the entertainment centre. Certainly facilities should be updated at these stations but light rail is the way to go.
Light Rail means destroying all platforms, ripping up all the track and replacing it with standard gauge, then rebuilding the platforms, then electrification. So quite expensive. Your first point is wrong. Imagine the time savings (I would be thinking 20 minutes), and the inconvenience for passengers is minimal (A bit of a walk). The time savings make it much more competitive with car. Plus, proper bus-rail connections (Like in Perth) are also great and make up for less stations.
Lately I've been fan of changing it to light rail as there will be opportunities to connect to Semaphore and West Lakes and centre of Port
Omg I couldn’t agree more! I just commented about that topic.
Why not build new crosstown lines and reroute some trains to the new line transfers are not an issue
My personal opinion on the Woodville-Kilkenny station dilemma would be to simply have fast trains skip over one of the stations, choosing the more patronaged station, with commuter trains still stopping at either station
The Woodville Park and Killkeny are the Closest Station and the Same thing as Mawson Lakes and Greenfields are the Same thing to. But the Mawson Lakes has the Information Screen without Greenfields.
No stations on the outer Harbor line need to be removed, people use them. Public transport is there for the public, re-opening the Port Dock line would be beneficial
Great video! I'm interested to hear your thoughts on the future of the Belair line.
Undoubtedly I'll make a video on it one day, but the ideally the line would be fully electrified, and through the tunnel sections trains could operate on only battery power. The line really needs full electrification due to it's very steep grade to allow faster journeys in trains. hopefully one day the line could be extended to Mount Barker one day. The line should also receive at least 20 minute frequency at least in the near future, more crossing loops would however be needed for that level of service
@@AussieWirraway what about the sections where the trains have to wait for the other train to pass
@@AussieWirraway Restoring train services to Mount Barker will require a signficant reroute of the mainline away from Blackwood and Belair to create a faster and shorter service that doesn't slowly wind through the hills. It's part of the reason why the Bridgewater line closed, the trains were just too slow compared to driving along the SEF. The Belair line could still run in it's current form, but the mainline and trains to Mount Barker would run on a different route.
@@Nick-kz6dg whole health agree. For a train service to Mt Barber, there needs to be a totally new line, away from the old steam age line that for political reasons was to serve as many Hills towns as possible and total unsuitable for a model higher speed train service. When ever people talk about a service to Mt Barker there is talk how to route passenger and freight trains together and never about a new line free of freight trains.
Very interesting and i also agree but unfortunately the current government have shown very interest in upgrading the Outer Harbour line and will continue to be neglected under the current government that are too much of a of tight ass which is quite sad really if look at it in reality.
Ur comments on the grange to woodville section if u check history u will find that happen most of the time changing trains
If a train station is more than a 10 min walk away from home, I would definitely drive instead especially for short trip. There are a lot of short trips originating or ending at Port Adelaide Station on the Outer Harbour Line because a high proportion of residents along the line are able to walk to a station within 5 min. Total car free lifestyle is made possible. What they need to do to improve operational efficiency is to electrify the line and purchase EMUs with high acceleration and deceleration ability. It will significantly reduce journey time to the city without removing stations and short trip users.
yea i have to walk 20 mins for my closest train station.
Hi
There has been plans by Renewal SA for the extension of the Seaford line to Aldinga. I assume there will be two train stations at Maslin Beach and Aldinga. Can you please find the alignment of the Seaford line to Aldinga and the placement of train stations.
I can't find the exact alignment from Seaford to Aldinga; Your help is greatly appreciated.
I am planning on making a video on it eventually, i am generally aware of where the corridor and stations are supposed to be but I'll have a long search through renewal SA's database too
Very interesting & you make some good points, but I think you need to slow down the speed of your overhead scanning as it was too hard to work out where the train was running & which stations you wanted to cut out...😀
I wonder if it is better to extend the Glenelg tram line to Grange and then convert the Grange line into a tram service that terminates at Woodville, I used a station in Stockholm that light rail converged on a separate platform at one of their metro stations and all you needed to do was swap. This has the benefit of extending coverage along the coast instead of buses and the trams are probably better suited to a lower capacity line.
Trams or trains on a low capacity feeder line are extremely expensive to operate. A bus would be far cheaper to operate as a feeder line when compared to trams or trains.
when the southern suburbs was electrified they complained that the pillars were visible from their houses... I lived next to a brewery and inside a industrial park, lived far away from amenities.... they should stop being NIMBY and be more of a "well, I do hope they add more value to the services other than the dollar to our properties"
The alternative is gridlock,
They just gotta electrify the damn thing, hopefully with Labor in government now as well this shit can finally be sorted out.
Ok no hate but it would be really cool if they got trams down at semaphore that goes up through Westlake and then goes to the city, it would be so convenient for me and others in the Area because our closest train station is Ethelton. Also great vid btw
Since you have so much info., how about looking into the line from Adelaide to Mt. Barker & Seaford to Sellicks Bch., as there is so much housing development going on now.
The 12km extension from Seaford to Aldinga is already planned and the ROW reserved. However, it won't start work until the end of decade.
Hay aussie yes this would be a great Idea but how do you think thay will do it and get people to work on time that work in the port area and a other whats Adelaides 1st worst rail line as in thumbnail and would love to see the Blair line one day go to mt barker
Belair is our worst line by far, and a very tricky one to solve
@@AussieWirraway, When was the Bridgewater line reverted to Belair?
@@michaeleverett1479 30 years ago or more.
@@Adelaide_Transit, We'd definitely need a brand new train line in serving Adelaide's south eastern suburbs. Extending the Belair line to Bridgewater with that indirect/ garbage route alignment means that train travel along the steep hills can't be faster than cars along the direct South Eastern freeway. Trains along the Adelaide Hills can't safely travel at high speeds of 100 - 160 km/h on railway tracks on hilly terrain combined with tight twists and turns. In addition, the Belair line has a large number of single track (broad gauge - 1600 mm) sections between Goodwood to Bridgewater which limits train frequency to only 30 minutes per direction. Freight trains run on a single track (standard gauge - 1435 mm) which parallels the Belair trains between Goodwood to Belair then Bridgewater. These reasons above means that extending the Belair train from Belair to Bridgewater with the existing alignment is an unviable option.
Woodville park is a very unnecercary station, there is nothing around it and it should be demolished
Woodville park just got disability ramps
yeah I saw that pretty recently, good they're going in but it doesn't change the fact the entire station is pretty garbage and needs to go. At least for the next few years it's excellent progress.
@@AussieWirraway I agree with removing some stations such towards the end but I would keep both Draper and taperoo even though there very close to each other as the walking route between the two is extremely inconvenient and dangerous at night time also I would electrify the entire line including Grange and yeah make Grange trains depart from woodville five or so minutes after any outer harbour train gets to woodville and with increasing services I totally agree with that but keep the current timetable and slot the extra services in and also with woodville park and Kilkenny scrap both stations and build a new Kilkenny where the current one is as it's a bit rundown (but keep the TARDIS of course)
Interesting video. What about a metro line like Sydney is doing. Yes it has a higher cost but in the long term it will be far more cheaper. Also switching from broad to standard guage will attract federal contributions for the cost. (SA often misses out on federal infrastructure money).
SA's only likely mega rail infra project in the next decade will be a CBD underground rail link, much like Brisbane's cross river rail
They need to get trains going to Barker 1st. Belair line is in a worse state than outer Harbour
For me, "if" the Grange/Outer Habor lines does go elextric. It would be a good time then to lower the whole section of between Kilkenny(You Bastards) station and Woodville stations on the outer Habor line, plus between Woodville and Port Road on the Grange. As part of this, rebuild the Kilkenny and Woodville stations while doing away with Woodvile Park station. In doing so Port Road, Woodvile Road, and Kilkenny Road would allow traffic to better flow without having to deal with trains. And if Labor still wish to have a tram line to Port Adelaide and Semaphor, they can still do so by extending the tram line from the Entertainment Center down the middle of Port Road, snake through Port Adelaide, then on to Semaphor. In doing so the state gov will be upgrading the bus network for busses that runs between Adelaide, Port Adelaide, and Peninsula. As in still have bus runs that cross Port Road, in port Adelaide, and Peninsula, but have it more of a local bus runs that are better tied up with both tram and the train lines.
Lol the station was there long before the Southpark Joke.but have it rebranded as Kill Kenny featuring the kid from southpark on it.
Why the hell is there so many platforms at Glanville? Shouldn't Port Adelaide be the main station on the entire line? and what's the attraction with Outer Harbor? I think they should terminate the service at North Haven.
Outer Harbor station has a large port nearby which are used for passenger cruise ships (1st link below) and cargo ships. The global cruise ship industry is struggling so much during the Covid outbreak, that it may not recover again; this makes the Outer Harbor station fairly useless. Within 1.2 km - 1.7 km of Osborne station, there's a maritime industry (2nd link below) which builds warships and submarines for the Australian military. Glanville station serves train passengers going to the highly popular Semaphore Beach.
www.flindersports.com.au/shipping-cruise/passenger-information/
www.asc.com.au/about-us/
The Outer Harbor train is so underultised throughout the day where 2 carriage 3000 class DMU trains regularly run empty with a 30 minute frequency. There needs to be big incentives by the South Australian government to upgrade the Outer Harbor line and encourage more passengers to use that train service.
@@michaeleverett1479 100% agreed. I'm a Melburnian however I'd like to see some improvement projects on Adelaide's metro train network. And I'd like to see a Suburban train to Virgina and eventually to Two Wells if there's enough demand. Virginia is now populated enough for a passenger train service.
@@jacintaedwards1123 Mostly outer harbor for the cruise ship demand a handful of times a year for tourists is what it exists for.I lived through the Upgrade of Gawler services so put up with city to Elizabeth and back services on the J1 bus for as long as possible for the most part.Off topic what stuns me even though the train is back is why that bus is often packed like a sardine.
Electrify it
obviously the population density along the Port line makes this line marginal at best. A brave state government would convert it into a Bus Rapid Transit system that is more efficient and flexible. Seems like successive state governments are letting this line rot away to the point that a major investment will be required, thats when the bus lobby will get their way.
Yep your right, buses are flexible...they can accommodate multiple bikes prams wheelchairs gophers, and at the same time move massive amounts of ambulant people....oops did I say buses? I meant to say trains can, buses can not move large amounts of people, private bus operators do not run back up buses in peak hour as they did under public ownership...its eats into their profits.
It's a crazy suggestion to convert the Outer Harbor train line to tram/ light rail or busway/ BRT. Leave the Outer Harbor line as a train/ heavy rail and upgrade the train services in the long term through electrification, new electric trains, increase stop spacing and removing railway crossings. The upgraded Outer Harbor line would be a very popular like the NE O'bahn if the trains can achieve high average speed between stations with adequate enough urban development near stations (1 - 3 km), connectivity to cross city bus lines on top of bicycle cages.
No buses thx...
The electric trains have much faster accelleration, its just the "waiting game" until it eventually happens.. For the short-distance stops, the line could alternate with which one it stops at, which would work with the more consistent timings.
"2nd worst" not worse.