My man Papito COOKED with this video. Fantastic stuff, loved it! It's crazy a man who likely has never heard of Kreia in Tony Gilroy, understands her character more than Leslye Headland, who claims she is her favorite character lol.
I really appreciate that Andor, in some part, did not place Empire as just oofy doofy evil. It showed them as a actual political force and gave us the intricaces. BTW good to see you back, Quinn.
Has it ever occurred to George Lucas the implications and ramifications of the nature of his universe along with it's characters? I like to think that writers like Avellone, Gilroy, Zahn captured the true essence of Star Wars far better than its creator.
Since George changes his mind everytime he steps into this universe, I think it’s safe to say the answer is “no” - George was driven by whatever he wanted in the moment it feels like sometimes.
Honestly due to how flexible Star Wars can be I am still going to say Lucas captured Star Wars best in A New Hope, if we’re considering Star Wars content. It isn’t exactly fair to attribute who represented Star Wars best when Star Wars is so multifaceted. What is Star Wars is a question with many possible answers. Personally I think what Lucas says in interviews is the best to what is Star Wars, what he intended for it to be. The movies, especially the prequels, served to tell their own stories. However I don’t think Lucas ever anticipated what Star Wars would become with his characters now engaged in a grand mythos. And other Star Wars writers can capture/highlight parts more than Lucas did
Luthen kinda reminds me of another character from the current canon, Ferren Barr. He was Jedi Padawan who survived order 66 but would go on to abandon almost everything his order stood for. He lied and manipulated people into helping him, sometimes even using mindtricks. Eventually he deliberately caused a war on Mon Cala by making informing the empire he was there and purposely sabotage any attempt at negotiation between them and the Mon Cala. Ultimately it lead to the destruction of the Mon Cala’s home with millions killed, but ironically also what lead to these people later uprising against the Empire and playing an important role in the rebel fleet. Ferron Barr’s actions would be considered horrific by many but sadly it’s also what played an important part in the fall of the empire. He knew making them suffer under the empire was the push they needed to later stand up.
It's funny that you open by saying that Andor understood what Star Wars really is, considering one of the main complaints that people gave about Andor was that it 'doesn't feel like Star Wars'.
The fact that you put the soundtrack from Deus Ex made my hair standup. I love Kotor II as much as I love Deus Ex: Human Revolution and DE: Mankind Divided. There has to be a connection.
Magnificent soundtrack in all of them. Except for Invisible War. But that's only because I haven't played it in years and I can't get it to run on windows 10.
I find it interesting that despite owning Lucasfilm for twelve years Disney has made two things that I love. That being Andor and the Jedi: Outcast/Survivor games (which weren't even made by Disney). To quote ISB supervisor Blevin "It Took The Combined Ingredients Of Idiocy Ineptitude And Total Disengagement For This farce To Have Reached The Full Apex Of Incredulous Disaster"
Luthen Rael also embodies a lot of World revolutionary figures. From the old IRA in the 1920s. The Commerce Revolution. the troubles in Ireland in the 1960s to 1990s. And then numerous Latin American conflicts. Because many of those figures retired and wrote down what they did. Not to mention the numerous failed revolutions in Europe that were only accomplished an assassination.
I've been seeing comments about Andor and how great it is for years, but I have zero trust in the taste of the average Star Wars fan. They're the same people who said that the Mandalorian was a masterpiece, when I thought it was a turd and a half (and I mean season one, never bothered to watch the rest, or any other live action Star Wars series for that matter). But if a RUclipsr who's dedicated his channel to covering my favorite video game of all time sings praises for this show, then perhaps it's time to reconsider. I'll have to check out Andor sooner or later. Probably sooner.
I gotta give credit where credit's due. Disney actually managed to put out something magnificent. This is the kind of thing we have to reward them for. It's the only way they'll learn. The show actually treats me like an adult. I very much appreciate that.
Excellent video. I'm always happy to see you releasing new content. I have a relaxing Saturday ahead of me, so I think I'll rewatch all Kreia's Conundrums start-to-finish.
Brother, you've outdone yourself here. This is easily one of your best videos (and that's a high bar!) The comparisons are excellent and really reflect why both Andor and kotor2 are the most thoughtful pieces of Star Wars media imo.
I gave up on star wars a few years ago, and watched Andor this year. Oh was i wrong not watching it earlier, and as a huge fan of KOTOR2 i have to say it checked all boxes for me. Especially the philosophy
I'm currently going through For Whom The Bell Tolls, and its a book that hits upon this very much. The honorless, destitute fighting in which you need to use your enemy's weapons against them, even if it is for a rightsheous cause. The knowing that a guard you strangle might just be doing that because he feels he might be shot if he refuse and yet you still need to take out that position.
The question is, who is right? Luthen or Luke? Kreia or the (light side) Exile? They cannot both be right. For Luke and the Exile, there is value to doing good and acting out of love, even if it might fail or backfire. For Luthen and Kreia, everything must be subordinated to and can be sacrificed for their cause and their plan. I sometimes call Andor the anti-Star Wars, because as it stands now (we'll see about season 2) its ethics are on a fundamental level incompatible with the ethics of the Original Trilogy. According to this video, the main characters in the OT were merely a cogs in Luthan's revolution and the rebellion realized Luthen's vision. But it is also possible that (indirectly and implicitly), the OT shows the Rebellion turning away from Luthen's plan and decided to trust the Force and do what is good instead of what seems necessary. Perhaps Luthen's vision would have lead to a reign of terror - after all, what do you do when you gain power and now have to deal with a huge section of the galactic population that collaborated with the Empire. KotOR II is also somewhat open to interpretation: Kreia says that helping people makes them weaker, but most of the Exile's companions and most of the planets she visits become stronger because she helps. So if Kreia is wrong in this regard, then it is very well possible that she misunderstands what the Force is doing and the the balancing the Force does is a balancing that overall moves the Galaxy into the direction of the good.
Just the couple of points that came to my mind about Luthen immediatly: 1. Its not "Luthens Revolution", there are many different figures and groups behind the Rebellion, luthen its just one of them. He obviously is very influentual and well connected, but he is not "the leader" of the whole thing. 2. We ofcourse have to wait and see for Season 2, but in episode 12, Luthen listening to Marvaas speech, his reaction to it and taking Cassian in instead of killing him as he had planned and worked towards up to this point, seems to indicate to me that his mind has already been changed a bit and he is on the path of change.
8:24 Yes. If you have the heart for the truth. If you survive such a thing, I mean literally. As long as you draw breath, you have options. You can always leave through the door you've entered rather than to stay in the worse room ( I could have said the "wrong" room). The reason why they did it has it's justifications, hence leaving the worse room not the wrong one will flourish some measure of peace. The wound can heal with a poroper framework (the trauma). It doesn't erase history though. So from a moral questioning do you deserve to exist after so much damage done? In it's most non-conforming form, probably not. But you can make some amends without sacrificing your "self", your character. We all know one who has fallen so far and done so much evil does not deserve redemption. In a way such a turning from ones nature is cowardly, a betrayal of the self. Redemption is merely a form of spiritual collapse, a fall few recover from. I am in a similar situation as Kreia. I have an enemy I fight with that is much more powerful then me. Though it's not an external being much more powerful then myself, so I can speak only in parallel. No manner of thougness can help. It's my body. Chronic pain, chronic fatigue. It's in all of my cells hah. So Hypervigilance will make it worse. Our nervous system is already in a hypersensitive state, more vigilance will make it even worse. So what helps is allowance, not acceptance, big difference. We don't accept. Intrusive thoughts are similar to the force trying to manipulate you, so you use your focus on a thought pattern interuption and relaxtion of the body, than pivot your focus back on your purpose. It is much more powerful than resistance and hypervigilance. Then you manipulate the enviroment indirectly to create enough signals of safety to your nervous system and bam you win. Same as with fat loss. Resistance and hypervigilance would be like wanting to remove the fat from your body with your bare hands. We do it indirectly with creating the enviroment in which the body will do it itself. That's nutrition, exercise and rest. If Kreia succeded, killed the force and survived, she could finally freely connect with others. She could do it with her integrity intact (she is wise enough to find a way). This labor of hers is multifaceted in motivation. It is out of necessity for victory, nonadhering freedom and in the end even love. Which means that no matter how she denies it, even to her, hope is not a forgone conclusion.
Andor's real good, but it and Rogue One sure lose their quality with The Book of Boba Fett, Battlefront 2 2017, and Battle Scars in mind. Such is the problem of media gems in a wonky shared universe. Granted, KotOR II is hampered by the existence of The Old Republic MMO and the Denning-verse, but even then, at least those can be expelled from neat headcanons. Anyways... At least Kreia's legacy has worth, considering how the galaxy survived from her suspected s****de-by-cop sacrifice to the Legacy era a few millennium later, regardless if the Exile ended a true Jedi or a true Sith by way of the game's endings. Luthen's hard work, among other folks' like Cal Kestis and Caleb Dume, sure feels wasted on a galaxy where the New Republic is no more, the First Order has accomplished its Pyrrhic objectives, and some surprisingly untrustworthy neo-Jedi named Rey is about to lead it to obvious oblivion with her reckless madcap existence. Can agree that fictional rebellions need more scrutiny against them. Believe me, what we really need are more truly benevolent fictional government police, and military forces that feel like a breath of fresh air from the sinning world we live in... and the occasional TIE Fighter video game and Battlefront II 2005 campaign, because it's sometimes fun to play as "the wrong side".
I guess these 2 rely push the limit of "The end don't justify the means". I used to "believe" there is a tipping point one should not compromise their integrity and morality, an example if anyone is willing to look into is the DCU "Injustice" series or even prior to that the "Justice Lords" parallel from Justice League. Where the goal was to have peace and 'justice' but to that end to sacrifice so many things to achieve that. I guess it must always be weighed in the amount of 'bad' you need to combat to justify using extreme means, but when can someone freely consider themselves "Judge, Jury and Executioner" for a situation. I honestly wish we had more media (both gaming and movies/shows) that made us question right and wrong, to see a bigger picture of the human mind and what is it capable of. Its fine to sometimes have simple black and white (actually we kinda need that because getting mirred in gray is sometimes bad) but it doesn't hurt to have more thought provoking content.
There is something disturbing with glorifying people like Kreia and Luthen. I know much more about Kreia and the bottom line is - she is wrong. She chose to waste her life on a quest that does not need to (and likely cannot) be done at all - to destroy the Force. I know she believes The Force manipulates her life and caused the bad events in her life, but as per all the lore in EU, she is deluded and wrong. She made her choices and the Force did not make her do it. The person she should blame is herself, instead, she embarks on this fuitile vendetta that is doomed to failure and wastes her life in the process. I am aware Kotor 2 writer Chris Avellone might genuinelly believed some things he put in Kotor 2 but it contradits most of other SW material. E.g, the Dark side did not manipulate or "made" Anakin to kill the younglings. He first, on his own free will, chose to embrace it and let it in.
My man Papito COOKED with this video. Fantastic stuff, loved it! It's crazy a man who likely has never heard of Kreia in Tony Gilroy, understands her character more than Leslye Headland, who claims she is her favorite character lol.
Hey, he said it. Not me.
Fantastic video indeed. You guys should do something together.
@@PapitoQinn Bro truly did absolutely cook I love you and 100StarWars you've earned a Sub would love to see more star wars content from you
Excellent video.
Absolutely love KOTOR2, which is why I clicked. Your great analysis is why I stayed. I think you nailed both characters beautifully.
Thank you very much! Although the two are similar. I'm leaning on the side of Tony Gilroy not being familiar with Kreia at all.
He lives. He lives ladies and gentlemen. He's actually still alive. XD
Yes I am. Decided to take my time with this one.
I really appreciate that Andor, in some part, did not place Empire as just oofy doofy evil. It showed them as a actual political force and gave us the intricaces. BTW good to see you back, Quinn.
Putting those clips side by side really makes transparent what was otherwise obscured. Neat
Has it ever occurred to George Lucas the implications and ramifications of the nature of his universe along with it's characters?
I like to think that writers like Avellone, Gilroy, Zahn captured the true essence of Star Wars far better than its creator.
Since George changes his mind everytime he steps into this universe, I think it’s safe to say the answer is “no” - George was driven by whatever he wanted in the moment it feels like sometimes.
@@ForsakenKrios so he IS the Force for a lack of better description
Honestly due to how flexible Star Wars can be I am still going to say Lucas captured Star Wars best in A New Hope, if we’re considering Star Wars content. It isn’t exactly fair to attribute who represented Star Wars best when Star Wars is so multifaceted. What is Star Wars is a question with many possible answers. Personally I think what Lucas says in interviews is the best to what is Star Wars, what he intended for it to be. The movies, especially the prequels, served to tell their own stories. However I don’t think Lucas ever anticipated what Star Wars would become with his characters now engaged in a grand mythos. And other Star Wars writers can capture/highlight parts more than Lucas did
@@GrandVizierPestage indeed but what he wanted at times ended up causing more problems than it solved
This made me want to rewatch andor and replay both kotors.
If you have the time, do it. Maybe play while having Andor playing on a loop on another screen.
Luthen kinda reminds me of another character from the current canon, Ferren Barr. He was Jedi Padawan who survived order 66 but would go on to abandon almost everything his order stood for. He lied and manipulated people into helping him, sometimes even using mindtricks. Eventually he deliberately caused a war on Mon Cala by making informing the empire he was there and purposely sabotage any attempt at negotiation between them and the Mon Cala. Ultimately it lead to the destruction of the Mon Cala’s home with millions killed, but ironically also what lead to these people later uprising against the Empire and playing an important role in the rebel fleet. Ferron Barr’s actions would be considered horrific by many but sadly it’s also what played an important part in the fall of the empire. He knew making them suffer under the empire was the push they needed to later stand up.
It's funny that you open by saying that Andor understood what Star Wars really is, considering one of the main complaints that people gave about Andor was that it 'doesn't feel like Star Wars'.
The fact that you put the soundtrack from Deus Ex made my hair standup. I love Kotor II as much as I love Deus Ex: Human Revolution and DE: Mankind Divided. There has to be a connection.
Magnificent soundtrack in all of them. Except for Invisible War. But that's only because I haven't played it in years and I can't get it to run on windows 10.
A big mistake I made: Not watching Andor. Good for me though that I can still watch it for the first time!
You're gonna have to correct that. And then come back and watch this video again.
@@PapitoQinn Oh I will, I love your content about Kreia 😄
I find it interesting that despite owning Lucasfilm for twelve years Disney has made two things that I love. That being Andor and the Jedi: Outcast/Survivor games (which weren't even made by Disney). To quote ISB supervisor Blevin "It Took The Combined Ingredients Of Idiocy Ineptitude And Total Disengagement For This farce To Have Reached The Full Apex Of Incredulous Disaster"
It's like poetry sort of they rhyme.
Luthen Rael also embodies a lot of World revolutionary figures. From the old IRA in the 1920s. The Commerce Revolution. the troubles in Ireland in the 1960s to 1990s. And then numerous Latin American conflicts. Because many of those figures retired and wrote down what they did. Not to mention the numerous failed revolutions in Europe that were only accomplished an assassination.
You bring up a good point. Failed revolutions. I think we should study them just as much as the successful ones.
@@PapitoQinn that's what the showrunner and the main actor Andor help inspired the characters
…somehow Papito returned
Great vid Qinn.
Thank you! I really wanted to take my time with this one.
RUclips recommending a quality video? Impossible; there has been a glitch in the matrix.
He-Hey! RUclips algorithm doing it's thing for me. Magnificent!
I've been seeing comments about Andor and how great it is for years, but I have zero trust in the taste of the average Star Wars fan. They're the same people who said that the Mandalorian was a masterpiece, when I thought it was a turd and a half (and I mean season one, never bothered to watch the rest, or any other live action Star Wars series for that matter).
But if a RUclipsr who's dedicated his channel to covering my favorite video game of all time sings praises for this show, then perhaps it's time to reconsider.
I'll have to check out Andor sooner or later. Probably sooner.
I gotta give credit where credit's due. Disney actually managed to put out something magnificent. This is the kind of thing we have to reward them for. It's the only way they'll learn. The show actually treats me like an adult. I very much appreciate that.
Excellent video. I'm always happy to see you releasing new content.
I have a relaxing Saturday ahead of me, so I think I'll rewatch all Kreia's Conundrums start-to-finish.
This is easily your greatest video yet! Sharing it rn!
Thanks, man! I hope the numbers reflect that as true.
Love that you have begun doing video essays. You have a knack for it
Brother, you've outdone yourself here. This is easily one of your best videos (and that's a high bar!)
The comparisons are excellent and really reflect why both Andor and kotor2 are the most thoughtful pieces of Star Wars media imo.
I gave up on star wars a few years ago, and watched Andor this year. Oh was i wrong not watching it earlier, and as a huge fan of KOTOR2 i have to say it checked all boxes for me. Especially the philosophy
Two of my favorite characters!!! I'm so glad you made this video or I likely wouldn't've realized I liked them both so much for the same reason!!!
I'm currently going through For Whom The Bell Tolls, and its a book that hits upon this very much. The honorless, destitute fighting in which you need to use your enemy's weapons against them, even if it is for a rightsheous cause. The knowing that a guard you strangle might just be doing that because he feels he might be shot if he refuse and yet you still need to take out that position.
He's back...
Indeed. I didn't want to rush this one.
@@PapitoQinn And it shows, as usual.
Brilliantly executed.
this is incredible, as per usual, Qinn
Peak video essay
Thanks! I decided to take my time with this one.
Ok, you got me. Mauler constantly praising this show didn't quite do it for me, but that was the last straw.
I will go watch Andor.
Ooo excited for this one
The question is, who is right? Luthen or Luke? Kreia or the (light side) Exile? They cannot both be right. For Luke and the Exile, there is value to doing good and acting out of love, even if it might fail or backfire. For Luthen and Kreia, everything must be subordinated to and can be sacrificed for their cause and their plan.
I sometimes call Andor the anti-Star Wars, because as it stands now (we'll see about season 2) its ethics are on a fundamental level incompatible with the ethics of the Original Trilogy. According to this video, the main characters in the OT were merely a cogs in Luthan's revolution and the rebellion realized Luthen's vision. But it is also possible that (indirectly and implicitly), the OT shows the Rebellion turning away from Luthen's plan and decided to trust the Force and do what is good instead of what seems necessary. Perhaps Luthen's vision would have lead to a reign of terror - after all, what do you do when you gain power and now have to deal with a huge section of the galactic population that collaborated with the Empire.
KotOR II is also somewhat open to interpretation: Kreia says that helping people makes them weaker, but most of the Exile's companions and most of the planets she visits become stronger because she helps. So if Kreia is wrong in this regard, then it is very well possible that she misunderstands what the Force is doing and the the balancing the Force does is a balancing that overall moves the Galaxy into the direction of the good.
Just the couple of points that came to my mind about Luthen immediatly:
1. Its not "Luthens Revolution", there are many different figures and groups behind the Rebellion, luthen its just one of them. He obviously is very influentual and well connected, but he is not "the leader" of the whole thing.
2. We ofcourse have to wait and see for Season 2, but in episode 12, Luthen listening to Marvaas speech, his reaction to it and taking Cassian in instead of killing him as he had planned and worked towards up to this point, seems to indicate to me that his mind has already been changed a bit and he is on the path of change.
muy bueno el análisis papito
yet another banger video
Thank you!
8:24 Yes. If you have the heart for the truth. If you survive such a thing, I mean literally. As long as you draw breath, you have options. You can always leave through the door you've entered rather than to stay in the worse room ( I could have said the "wrong" room). The reason why they did it has it's justifications, hence leaving the worse room not the wrong one will flourish some measure of peace. The wound can heal with a poroper framework (the trauma). It doesn't erase history though. So from a moral questioning do you deserve to exist after so much damage done? In it's most non-conforming form, probably not. But you can make some amends without sacrificing your "self", your character. We all know one who has fallen so far and done so much evil does not deserve redemption. In a way such a turning from ones nature is cowardly, a betrayal of the self. Redemption is merely a form of spiritual collapse, a fall few recover from.
I am in a similar situation as Kreia. I have an enemy I fight with that is much more powerful then me. Though it's not an external being much more powerful then myself, so I can speak only in parallel. No manner of thougness can help. It's my body. Chronic pain, chronic fatigue. It's in all of my cells hah. So Hypervigilance will make it worse. Our nervous system is already in a hypersensitive state, more vigilance will make it even worse. So what helps is allowance, not acceptance, big difference. We don't accept. Intrusive thoughts are similar to the force trying to manipulate you, so you use your focus on a thought pattern interuption and relaxtion of the body, than pivot your focus back on your purpose. It is much more powerful than resistance and hypervigilance. Then you manipulate the enviroment indirectly to create enough signals of safety to your nervous system and bam you win. Same as with fat loss. Resistance and hypervigilance would be like wanting to remove the fat from your body with your bare hands. We do it indirectly with creating the enviroment in which the body will do it itself. That's nutrition, exercise and rest.
If Kreia succeded, killed the force and survived, she could finally freely connect with others. She could do it with her integrity intact (she is wise enough to find a way). This labor of hers is multifaceted in motivation. It is out of necessity for victory, nonadhering freedom and in the end even love. Which means that no matter how she denies it, even to her, hope is not a forgone conclusion.
Andor's real good, but it and Rogue One sure lose their quality with The Book of Boba Fett, Battlefront 2 2017, and Battle Scars in mind. Such is the problem of media gems in a wonky shared universe.
Granted, KotOR II is hampered by the existence of The Old Republic MMO and the Denning-verse, but even then, at least those can be expelled from neat headcanons. Anyways...
At least Kreia's legacy has worth, considering how the galaxy survived from her suspected s****de-by-cop sacrifice to the Legacy era a few millennium later, regardless if the Exile ended a true Jedi or a true Sith by way of the game's endings. Luthen's hard work, among other folks' like Cal Kestis and Caleb Dume, sure feels wasted on a galaxy where the New Republic is no more, the First Order has accomplished its Pyrrhic objectives, and some surprisingly untrustworthy neo-Jedi named Rey is about to lead it to obvious oblivion with her reckless madcap existence.
Can agree that fictional rebellions need more scrutiny against them. Believe me, what we really need are more truly benevolent fictional government police, and military forces that feel like a breath of fresh air from the sinning world we live in... and the occasional TIE Fighter video game and Battlefront II 2005 campaign, because it's sometimes fun to play as "the wrong side".
I guess these 2 rely push the limit of "The end don't justify the means". I used to "believe" there is a tipping point one should not compromise their integrity and morality, an example if anyone is willing to look into is the DCU "Injustice" series or even prior to that the "Justice Lords" parallel from Justice League. Where the goal was to have peace and 'justice' but to that end to sacrifice so many things to achieve that. I guess it must always be weighed in the amount of 'bad' you need to combat to justify using extreme means, but when can someone freely consider themselves "Judge, Jury and Executioner" for a situation.
I honestly wish we had more media (both gaming and movies/shows) that made us question right and wrong, to see a bigger picture of the human mind and what is it capable of. Its fine to sometimes have simple black and white (actually we kinda need that because getting mirred in gray is sometimes bad) but it doesn't hurt to have more thought provoking content.
Rogue one and Andor are the very best disney star wars to demonstrate the will of the force and echoes through the force. Quite ironic.
I love Luthen Rael
Why every time i watch one of your videos i get to urge to replay a game? time to do another Mankind Divided run
fantastic
never have i clicked so fast
There is something disturbing with glorifying people like Kreia and Luthen.
I know much more about Kreia and the bottom line is - she is wrong.
She chose to waste her life on a quest that does not need to (and likely cannot) be done at all - to destroy the Force.
I know she believes The Force manipulates her life and caused the bad events in her life, but as per all the lore in EU, she is deluded and wrong.
She made her choices and the Force did not make her do it. The person she should blame is herself, instead, she embarks on this fuitile vendetta that is doomed to failure and wastes her life in the process.
I am aware Kotor 2 writer Chris Avellone might genuinelly believed some things he put in Kotor 2 but it contradits most of other SW material.
E.g, the Dark side did not manipulate or "made" Anakin to kill the younglings. He first, on his own free will, chose to embrace it and let it in.