Guilty Gear: Quality Over Quantity | Design Excellence | Video Essay
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- Опубликовано: 26 сен 2024
- Welcome to the first episode of a new series, titled design excellence! Here, we take a look at some things that make certain fighting games special, and how those design decisions impact the FGC as a whole. As always, if you like the video, liking and subscribing helps out a lot!
Twitch: / eddventur3
Twitter: @NecropolisMemer
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I found him
3:57
I feel this video stopped being about the roster halfway through and more about how cool GG is.
Well the roster interacting with each other is still about the roster.
Chipp do be shmoving doe
@Satyrn Nenji no no it’s true chip do be shmooving
spittin
Is that like schmixing but with schmoving
So basically u really like guilty gear
nonono, it's quite literally the objective best fighting game series of all time
@@pezbot_lopes6651 Yes.
It is one of the best if not the best fighting game since all characters are unique and no need huge roster to be good
Do you like street fighter?
Who wouldn't
I was never worried about the roster size considering this asw we're talking about. They will release 2 season passes on each of the 4 versions with increasing confusing names
@@starbreaker6441 do you have any idea how many versions there are of orignal blazblue
@@mantic5423 yeah there are the mainline games, and then all those side story spinoff games for blazblue
@@starbreaker6441 thank you, we don't talk about BBTAG
Blazblue: Chrono Phantasma EXTEND is an actual, real title of an arcsys game.
@@starbreaker6441 Guilty Gear: Sign -> Guilty Gear: Xrd Revelator... 2.
The GG characters have the Monster Hunter effect, where most of the weapons are so wildly different and deep that they feel like playing different games (in a good way). For the most part, you pick a main and run with it. The size of a GG roster hardly concerns me, because I’m playing Sol 99% of the time regardless. Naga looks sick tho ngl
how can you play any character for 99% of the time? they're all so cool i want to play them all!
@@slkjvlkfsvnlsdfhgdght5447because every character is so unique you need a udemy course for each
@@pploversuckerandhuffer but you're missing out on so much fun!
@@slkjvlkfsvnlsdfhgdght5447 bro, this is my first fighting game and i have enough trouble keeping the combos for one character in my head
@@frozenheartedgiant8330 i wasn't talking to you specifically, i was talking to the fgc in general.
do what's fun for you, but i think that eventually you should try all the characters
From what I understand a major reason that small rosters are looked down up is because of the DLC that is added on later. We all love GG but personally I don’t exactly enjoy buying multiple season passes for to have all the characters.
Even big rosters do that very exact thing with buying multiple season passes to have all of the characters
Still better than buying the same game but with 2 or 3 new characters and maybe some extras.
Yeah like maybe 5 additional characters for five bucks a piece would be nice But having like 15 for $8 a piece that just doesn't work out
We are in the future, fighting game need to grow and need to have long term service so there is DLC
I would be happy to skip characters I don't play, like say if Robo Ky was a DLC, and just get the DLC characters I want. (No Testament, no investament.)
"In recent years, fighting games have launched with fairly large rosters"
Me, looking at dbfz: hmmmm
Same company as guilty gear.
Same developer LoL
@@saitoXamaterasu different teams.
Looks at Granblue Fantasy Versus: hmmmm
@@armortekel same devs.
3:56
Ryu/ken- standard fireball (not much of a difference)
Sakura- shorter range, but can be charged. Also can use an anti air fireball.
Akuma- standard fireball, but can also use another type that hits multiple times, nullifying another fireball as well. Also can use a jumping fireball.
Lucia- has a two stage attack. First she kicks her fire ball up (which can be an anti air), then the player has to time it right to kick it again at the opponent. Not the best in a zoning situation.
Kage- All of his fireballs take time to charge up, but offer multiple hits that can win a projectile battle.
Sagat- has two difference that are used to keep the opponent guessing. A low hitting one, and a high hitting one. A crouching block will block both, but they can be used against a more aggressive player very well.
Short answer:
You won't notice a small roster if you spend months labbing 1 character
The Street Fighter comparison makes no sense. The fact that SF limits you more than GG means you have to think out of the box more when opening up your opponent. It’s not less engaging at all, just different.
Shaking back & forth isn't thinking outside the box. Movement in SF is *limited*
i helped him make that minecraft house!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I agree that a smaller roster comes with it's own design philosophy. However guilty gear strive is trying to be a simpler game and a lot of it's characters have less options as a result. Simpler design spaces are where more characters are nice, along side team based games where you want a lot of characters to cover each others weaknesses. I see both of these as reasons why a bigger roster in strive would be nice. (assuming there is a team based mode like in the most resent trailer) Also a big roster is something the fgc wants whenever a new game comes out. There's nothing wrong with wanting what is more or less an industry standard.
simpler doesn't necessarily mean less options, it just means easier to understand options. Also simpler than guilty gear Xrd isn't saying that much. You are correct in saying there's nothing wrong with wanting a bigger roster though
What character are you referring to when you say "less options"? And yeah the game is supposed to be a simpler game but that refers to the universal mechanics, not the characters and their gimmicks, just look at Nagoriyuki and tell me that character is simple and begginer friendly
It might be a simpler game, yes, but it's still a Guilty Gear
Tbf simple guilty gear is still more complicated than most modern fighting games IMO
Assuming your opinion has changed (if you played the open beta)
I heard it's been simplified to introduce to beginners but the characters have really complex combos. But each character still has a gimmick and still many ways to counter. Except giovanna though. It really seemed like she is a beginner friendly character
I will say this once and only once: From now on, I am always going to hide a picture of Jimbulus the Third somewhere in my videos. The first person who spots him and posts the correct timestamp will get their comment pinned. Not much of a prize, but fun nonetheless! Happy Hunting!
shit, I didn't see this until I finished. welp.. guess I get to see this great video a second time. can't say I'm complaining
Who is Jimbulus the Third?
@@imoj something of a joke character made in Eddventures last posted video. he was just a little throwaway gag... but now he lives on...
edd, my boy.. how are you gonna not pin my comment where I found Jimbulus. I'm like 90% certain mine was first. I feel betrayed 😥
@@MrBoingus I don’t even see a comment from you about the time stamp lmao, could just be RUclips being stupid, but so far the only time stamp I’ve seen is the one I pinned
Good video overall but there are a few points that struck me as incorrect or misleading, don't take what I'm about to say as offensive or aggressive, just wanted to point out a few things to help you improve your video essays. You had the right conclusion but came to it in the wrong ways it seems.
1:25 You said that a lot of anime fighter characters look bland and blend in with the crowd while picking a fighter that not only doesn't represent a lot of anime fighters, but ignoring the vast majority of anime fighters with distinctly unique and identifiable rosters. UNIST, Blazblue, DBFZ (barring all the Gokus and Vegetas), P4A, Skullgirls, MvC, and even melty blood are great examples of unique rosters where not one character looks like another. It just feels unintentionally dishonest to say anime fighter rosters look samey when something like 19/20 anime fighters in the last 15 years (not including GG) have wholly unique and distinct rosters.
3:53 Saying that SFVs roster features many characters with identical movesets while showing the shoto archetype seems a little unintentionally dishonest. If a character shares the same move as another character it doesn't mean that they're the same or even similar. Sagat plays nothing like Ryu who plays nothing like Ken. But to say they're similar because they share fireballs and DPs doesn't do them service in my eyes.
4:20 you state that GG has one character for each idea. While this isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it can unintentionally ostracize players and create barriers in the name of style. I love quality over quantity but at the same time I, personally, have picked up new fighting games with the intention of playing my favorite character, only to later discover I can't play that character to save my life. I'm sure many other players have experienced the same, but for most average people having options is always better.
Overall it was a pretty decent video, just some key points seemed to take the wrong path to the right conclusion it seems.
The part about picking a character to find out you cant play it was facts.Especially with tekken online; tried to pick up king and bro had 130 moves
*dude blazblue dbfz and P4A are also made by arcsis*
I got a bit triggered when he said that anime fighters characters look bland. For me, anime fighter characters are more eye-catchy because the developers can design the characters however they want. Characters in GG, Blazblue, Skullgirls etc have a lot of unique clothing compared to something like Street Fighter which is normally just a normal clothing.
To be fair, it was clear to me that he was just illustrating a point, I don't know if it happened to the rest of the audience, but It didn't feel like he was talking in absolute terms
3:53
But that was literally his point. Characters sharing moves. Sure they may play differently but they still share similar moves in the end.
Y'know, as interesting as this video is, it's upsets me that you're insinuating that there's no quality in games like Smash and whatnot, because of the big roster.
SmAsh is s party game. It's a makeshift wannabe.
Smash is more like a fighting game but for casuals and guest characters cross fest circlejerk fans. I wouldn't say normies but any people despite their age, gender and experience can get into it cuz "muh game icons and mascots woohoooo".
@@kyon2221 You sound salty
and i also like how he uses guilty gear xrd rev2 like he forgot that GG xrd in lunch was really unbalanced and not as good as revelator with a smaller roster, and he also skip the fact that arcsystem will lunch the game with full price with 15 character to just add more with DLC which at the end would result in a very expensive game if you want the full content day 1 and at the end of the day they will release multiple season passes to end up with a big roster for about 25-30 character where other games offer you the same amount but at a fairly price
i really like arcsys games a lot but their DLCs are abusive wich will end up with half the roster being the base game and this what makes people really reluctant because they can't indulge to pay 80$+ for game and DLCs and get frustrated if they only get thebase game with a lot of character missing
@@chebil_y4967 The Smash Ultimate character roster is small when you actually start the game,you just have to play through to unlock the characters for free, excluding dlc.
Guilty Gear is my favorite fighting game. I agree with it being more complex compared to other franchises, but I'd be lying if I say I want a smaller roster because of uniqueness of each character. Who doesn't want large characters to choose from? I mean, really?
Ask any fighting game fans and I bet one of their "dream" release is a game where it has most, if not all of characters who appeared previously in the franchise. SSB Ultimate is living that dream now. KOF '98 and 2002. Tekken Tag Tournament 2. DBFighterZ is on it's way there.
SFV: Ryu and Ken and every other shoto has never been soo different each shoto plays differently we've given them better defined archetypes and stylized unique tatsus and shoryukens and hadoukens along with new moves while also keeping the classic moves you know and Love.
Eddventure: LUCIA'S HURRICANE SPINNER IS JUST A TATSU. THAT'S NOT UNIQUE AT ALL. ALL SHOTO'S LOOK THE SAME.
ps: i know lucia isnt a shoto thats my main also i like eddventures vids it's just a lil humor also Guilty gear is badass and i will be buying strive i do think he makes some fair points.
yes Ryu and Ken maybe where clones in the first street fighter games but know they diffidently have each their owne style, like in tekken their is king and armor king they may look alike and share some similar moves but they are fundamentally different in their core gameplay that's why i failed to understand this video's logic it's misleading and hides the truth by bringing unrelated facts about guilty gear xrd rev2 as if tekken 7 with it's base roster and SFV didn't have very variants of gameplay archetypes
Lucia is a shoto tho, a heavy altered take in the archetype just like Sagat
Smash has 70+ characters and has lots of variety. To the point some characters even play their own mini games or have a single move that can be used in many ways (botw link's nair, duck hunt's can, wario's bike, etc).
Guilty gear is character design excellency, but Smash demostrates that you can have both quality and quantity
@Zacoc i'm not saying Ultimate's characters are just as deep as SOME Guilty Gear characters (for instance, Giovanna isn't deep at all) but the characters in ultimate are definetely way deeper than most fighting game characters nowadays, probably excluding games like Killer Instinct and Guilty Gear / Blazblue.
Smash in its character complexity is definetely up there.
That's cuz the same dudes who make tekken developed the game and tekken (7) has so many characters but also so much variety on playstyle it only makes sence that smash is like that
@@drowsyspook3455 while i love tekken, the characters are all mostly humans with their different fighting styles. In smash you have characters like game and watch or olimar. There are no games with such variety.
Also Bandai Namco publishes Smash, but it's development falls under Sora Ltd
Japanese designers: “add more belts”
The mind game scenario is exactly what fills my head during matches
My problem with small rosters are knowing half of them are inevitably going be dlc
Guilty Gear is one of the finest fighting game series out there and incredibly influential but I can't help but to feel that you're kinda overhyping some stuff here while making other fighting games look blander than what they truly are. Like that example with how the characters look different from one another is fighting game 101, GG doesn't even do it considerably better than any other fighting game worth it's salt. Most of the top dogs of the genre are a masterclass on how to make distinctive looking characters with very different personalities and visual appeal.
While I agree that on the whole GG'ss approach over smaller, more focused rosters and trying to make every character entirely different from one another is way better than not-so-different variations/clones you are being really disingenuous by using the Xrd series as an example, which had a lot of characters with cookie-cutter "throw multi-hitting projectile" during oki.
Lastly, a lot of these points don't apply well to Strive considering that so far none of the characters appear to have more tech than in previous games and in the worst case scenario they're like May who lost most of the moveset for no good reason other than making her super simple and easy to get.
rest in peace GGX2 May multi directional chain hitting Blanka ball.
May also had her main mechanic she worked with removed, all of her moves did high stun to set up for a strong combo off of dizzy
This video actually explains why I dont care for Guilty Gear. Too many character specific mechanics and match up knowledge required.
I prefer fighting games that share universal mechanics across all its characters and the difference comes into how they utilize them.
For instance a game like virtua fighter or smash melee. Endlessly complex while not being bogged down by layers of character specific tech.
You prefer stick figure bland fighting.
You like casual fighters. Not true fighting game player. New-gen baby. Hold my hand!!!!
@@containeduniverselow4790
A game that is not filled to the brim with character specific mechanics it's not bland lol.
@@edlerkrieger8045
SFV took steps backwards from SF4. 5 is Mario Kart.
@@containeduniverselow4790 Lol did you just call someone who likes melee a new gen baby? Dude that games like 20 years old and still kicking, it's the mutliplayer equivalent of a dinosaur at this point.
@@Little_b0t
Smash isn't a fighting game.
Being afraid of mechanics is casual-talk.
Just because the roster is small doesn't mean the roster is anymore dense with quality.
"Guilty Gear is quality over quantity"
The thumbnail: *Leo*
Exactly. Everything bad about Guilty Gear in one character
Why is Leo so bad? I’m not a fighting game expert but he’s a unique rush down character with a simple plan. Shouldn’t be to bad to play around once you get beyond beginner level right?
@@theonewhouploadsnothing1704 I have two words for you and that is Unga and Bunga
@@Hermit025 ngl, I don't see any issue with unga bungs characters
@@HollowPurple-if2co I don’t either but a lot of people do
Not gonna lie, the fact your entire point rests under "other fights bad GG good" is kinda of bad.
But it's true. GG more dynamic.
I think this video is pretty good but i think he should change that title
You didn't understand what he actually meant,did you?
@@containeduniverselow4790 gg sucks play better games
@@odddump3771 Also you... Play easier games.
I really like the video man but i gotta say it seems like you have a tendency to strawman other fighting games to praise guilty gear (not talking bad about GG but still). For example that Sfv character comparison was... not good to say the least while yes those characters do have moves that seem and in occasion act similar or the same you skim over the fact that a lot of those characters utilize those moves in completely different ways for example akuma and Kage have fireballs that break after being out for a certain amount of time plus both have another fireball, ryu ken and sakura all have a fireball that mostly functions the same other than sakura who has more options like charge or anti air fire ball, sagat’s fireballs has low fireball and stand fireball plus he has a vtrigger that makes both multi hit, and laura i dont even know why she was on there the only comparison that makes sense to me is the hurricane spinner. And while yes the DPs do function essentially the same the tatsus dont necessarily function the same, for ryu tatsu is more of a combo ender while for essentially everyone else it is either a extender/ender or just an extender and sagats thing isn’t even a tatsu. Also that vega grab loop is kinda a weird comparison to me because it also happens in Gear with Potemkin. Also i do agree with that interactivity thing Gear has way more options than Sfv. Overall i do agree with you about gear an amazingly designed game series however i feel like you can make way better arguments against other games especially Sfv (Sfv is in my opinion as a game barely even a comparison to any gear game up to sign) like for example you could say that the abundance of characters with similar moves while they do giving lore, add little to nothing and can even damage the game overall and it would be better to design a character that actually has a more unique moveset that adds something new to the game instead of stagnating on the same few moves. i use that argument a lot when talking about DB fighterz and its tendency to release literally the same few characters with different transformations instead of getting another character from the series that can have a different moveset that add to the game. Either way i feel that you can make a way better argument for GG if you simply be more careful to not misrepresent the game you compare it to because i agree Sfv is nowhere near as complex or well made as GG but i feel that you kind of strawman Sfv in this video in order to praise GG some more and most of the praise is well deserved but if you were to make a stronger argument against Sfv the praise would be way more revealing of just how good GG is.
I think the point he is trying to make is that with street fighter, while yes all those moves have differences, they are not as drastic and unique as the differences in the movesets of GG characters. For example, let's say you play Ryu, and your gameplan is to zone with fireball and anti air dp when they get close. If you decide to switch to sagat, you can keep pretty much the exact same game plan and not have a problem. You could never use the same gameplan you use with sol with Ky, or any gg character really.
@@alexjimenez7562 Not a fighting game player but that's how I took it. Guilty Gear has more diverse move sets where other games have more similar move sets. Not that they're exactly carbon copied. And not that GG doesn't have any similar move sets but that in general GG is more diverse. And SF was only an example.
I don't know if it's necessarily true, or if it's even a good thing. I imagine you could argue that there is benefit in being able to focus on one general strategy while having variety for better match ups against different opponents.
Holy cow I never noticed that thing about Sin and his flag being used as the backdrop. That’s actually really smart of the devs in order to make him stand out. Really cool stuff :)
@@СвенКаллуров i think this one of those cases where youre not supposed to notice consciously. In sins example, if they kept the same background, his character select panel would stick out in a bad way and then you woulc notice it. But you dont want that. You want it to be different and stand out but in a subtle way
5:00~ knockdown, projectile, wait if opponent has reversal, force opponent into a series of coinflip guesses while blocking, react to the jump out or option select with back or forward j.HS to get the throw and assert dominance.... isn't much different from generic throw mixup in SFV, it just looks like it has more to it because it has more steps. A more fair comparison would be to Sol, where his main mixup tool without meter is going for Wild Throw off of a tick crouching jab. You can't reversal the jab because it's active until it recovers, so Sol can toss it out over someone's wakeup and be safe. The risk of trying to evade Wild Throw after the jab is about the same as it is in SFV. 2K to catch you doing reversal inputs, delay close Slash to catch you trying to jump, either to catch backdashes.
Besides, you could easily find a clip of someone getting Potemkin Bustered 3 or 4 times in a row. A bit of this vid comes off as strong ignorance.
I love ur avatar
I mean Sol *is* a less gimmicky character than most, and was always considered one of the most simple/unga charas. As for getting several Pot Busters off, it *has* happened but like... How often? When was the last time Pot was good before Strive beta anyway?
Now was the SF example we saw a bad one? Hell fucking yes, but fact is that SF is a fairly straightforward affair where you want to outperform the enemy at the basics rather than beat him over the head with your unique moveset like Venom, Jack-O, Dizzy, Eddy and a bunch of other GG charas get to, but it doesn't mean GG is a game revolving entirely about gimmicks (but it does heavily, just look at Xrd Chipp players struggle in Strive without their Teleports).
"It just has more steps". Actually it's not about how many steps it takes but the amount of options you have. Which is always good in my book.
I can always watch a Guilty Gear match and 90% of the time, I'm never bored! The crazy character designs, fluidity of animation and a hyper competitive atmosphere makes for a grand experience! Guilty Gear is here to stay!
You also forgot that they gave Leo a completely different background color too, by strategically placing his hair behind him!
You may notice that several of these Arcana Heart characters have brown hair. But look! One of them has puppy ears and a kunoichi headband and a red bandana, and the other has a yellow/white/blue outfit and fights with a cross, and this one has a maid outfit and massive gauntlets and this one has guns and a big frilly dress, wow! This is how Arcana Heart distinguishes itself from other fighting games (cue snip of GG roster grayed out with 'anime boy/girl' reading over every character). This unique trend is further exemplified when you hover over these characters, as you can even see an unprecedented full body artwork when you do so! Eko's even includes her fucking green doodle monster thing, showing that there's more to her than initially meets the eye.
Sin's hair is desaturated, so it's actually a lot closer to a cold color. In general, I think you're really reaching here. You barely see the blue of the flag; if they didn't put it there, nothing would've really changed. If you wanted to talk about placement in the select screen, something I like more about GG is the symmetry between related characters story-wise. You could try talking about the wacky weapons used by GG characters--I mean, an anchor, a flag, a sword shaped like a giant lighter, a wedding bouquet, a fucking bed, come on.
I am glad you talked about the belts, though. And I fully agree that the characters themselves are very distinct and cool and interesting and what not playstyle-wise (and with the premise of the video; that's why I clicked on it, lol), on top of the fact that Gear's universal mechanics help rein in most of those wacky tools.
Guilty Gear is a phenomenal game, my second favorite fighter of all time after Blazblue. But so many GG players are so dismissive of other games for very shallow reasons with very silly justifications. I've never even fucking played or watched Arcana Heart and I could tell from the picture you yourself used that the design were clearly more distinct than you were giving them credit for. It's just frustrating to hear these kinds of things.
Edit: I watched some Arcana Heart gameplay. Designs/weapons are wonky, kinda reminds me of GG if anything. Gameplay seems pretty fun too.
"Notice how every single character is placed in such a way that they stand out from the rest of the cast"
Me who doesn't play guilty gear*
Huh!? They all look pretty standard anime characters ..
Me who plays Guilty Gear:
I second that !
But more srsly although they're on the nose and look like generic anime character in personnality and sometime designs, theyre still pretty stand out in their own way and they have a something that makes them more endearing despite leaning on a lot of anime tropes
@@axeljulesetienne3917 yes of course they'd have their personalities but on the character select screen they look pretty generic.. and he's like look how they intentionally put his country flag behind him that makes him stand out.. no it doesnt
@@ehsun7822 they look standard but also batshit insane designs at the same time (Faust for example), but forget it he just circle jerk GG for the most part
@@axeljulesetienne3917 the design might be good .. but these fg content creators talk toooo highy of this game ... Like they're finding depth in character select screen which is not even there.."you have a precious few seconds to select a character look how incredible of a job guilty gear did with its character select screen every character pops out " no they do not.. you'd probably pick the handsome looking dude mostly the main character
And all the characters look like simple anime characters nothing going on with them
@@ehsun7822 As someone who only recently started playing, And who has seen a crap ton of anime to understand a lot of tropes and fet tired of them i have one thing to say.
He isnt saying they stand out from other fighting. I dont know if thats what you mean but its what it sounds like. What he is saying is they stick out from each other.
I have played fighting games where all the characters constantly blend in with each other in an annoying or obnoxious way.
Guilty Gear is one of the few fighting games i could from the start pick out and find every character from a glance.
And i still dont even understand any single character in personality or even design.
However within GG from the character select screen, I never have a hard time seeing who is where when selecting them. Thats what he is talking about
It's not a small roster compared to other fighting games; it's a small roster compared to its own final roster.
I'm sick of buying incomplete games. I'm waiting for the inevitable complete edition.
Tekken7 started with less than 20 on arcade. The ps4 version which released was already a 3 year old version of tekken7. Also Under night, Skullgirls, SFV, SF4, GBVS, Samsho, all launched with sub 20 character lists on release
You can only lump Strive with SFV from what you listed. Both come with disappointing rosters with obvious intentions of selling you the rest of the game through dlc. Why would you want to defend this practice that milks fans while driving away new players?
@@hyunchong02 because without it fighting games wouldn't be made since these teams barely get a budget (netherrealm being the exception) and they are expected to work on the game for year's to come with no extra income from sales. Do you see why it's necessary now.
@@calebmarshall5739 Tekken 7 was released on one of the lowest budgets in the series but it came out with 37 characters and didn't even charge $60. Crazy how full a roster can feel when you're not using a business model that sells your game in parts for ultimately more than any triple-A game. I think it's fine for a fighting game to have DLC; I get as hyped as anyone else when new characters are announced, but that's not an excuse to allow a game to come out incomplete because you plan to finish it in the form of paid content.
@@hyunchong02 that ver. of t7 was 3 years old or smth...
@@altokia2724 You're pretending as if the arcade version is anything more than an exclusive alpha test for Japan and Korea that only cost 10 cents per play. It also continued to add free characters until the "real" release available to everyone.
Because Daisuke is an artist first. The man is literally goals. I’m surprised he doesn’t have a wife.
I very much like the approach to your videos, however there’s a trend where, while discussing GG, you’ll reference other games and do it in a somewhat.. ignorant way on purpose it seems
IE. DBFZ and having only 1 character archetype, or all the characters in SF having similar (or eerily similar) movesets
I understand it’s not too extreme, but I think it’s an ineffective way to get your point across when you’re trying to reach out to multiple audiences
Liked and shared the video anyway though, hope to see this work continue!
Like I REEEALLY don’t agree with your SFV analogies, and I don’t think they supported your point much since that exact scenario (command throw looped to death) will happen IN STRIVE. Sol’s WT is a 40% command throw, happen 3 times and you die
I think that’s probably the best example of purposeful ignorance I was speaking to, and really detracted to your point
My thoughts exactly. Why even add Lucia to the SFV's shoto comparisons?
@@ShaudL Heck getting command throwed to death can still happen in xrd and accent core, potemkin exists and while it is difficult some good reads by the pot player and he will command grab you to death.
@@arcfieri5965 Uhm,my guy,Pot is a grappler,that's their thing,but what he was talking about was the universal playstyle of the game,then their is a different story.
@@rachetmarvel931 except getting command thrown to death isn't universal in sfv it's really only the grapplers that can do that to any degree of consistency, also g but hes just really good. A large portion of sfv characters don't have command grabs and won't command grab loop you to death so that being a complaint against sfv is dumb
Sorry dude, while i think you have a point about quality over quantity, your overly bias to Guilty gear really makes it look you just want to talk how good guilty gear is and how bad the other fighting games are.
Just because a single situation have a shit ton of responses from both players, it doesn't take the fact that each game have situations that leads to others situations with more options making the flow of the game still be interesting.
On that same note, while yeah, making every character completly different is good, this does not mean making characters that have similar or identical moves, but may have different playstyles automatically bad.
I mean for GGs case having 5 ways to play 1 character is a whole lot'ta more memorable than 5 characters with 4of which you ain't ganna play as
He says in a later video that… its a guilty gear video, of course hes gonna praise guilty gear in a guilty gear video, hes not saying the other games dont do this or do this poorly. Hes just trying to point out what gear does particularly good.
So Guilty Gear is the only good video game ever created and all other games need to be thrown under the bus because of how superior GG is.
We not gonna talk about the fact this guy put ricter with rushdowns in the thumbnail? Like...wha
I would argue that the fact each character is unique is detriment to it having a small roster not a plus. If this was the first game in its series then it wouldn't be an issue because no one has a main yet but by downsizing a roster where there is no similar characters, you are forcing people who play day 1 to learn a new playstyle/character on top of new tech. Atleast with clones you are able to play a similar game until your preferred clone arrives. For people who's mains aren't in the base game it's gunna be learning a character they aren't fully invested in hoping their main comes sometime soon.
My thoughts exactly, for a first entry of a franchise 15 at launch is very respectable, however, gg is part of the old guard of the genre.
Nobody wants clones. SFV released with them trying avoid that. The other shotos came years later.
Excuses.
I'm just not going to buy the game at all until I see how they handle DLC. If we don't like something, let's not reward it.
@@containeduniverselow4790 I never said clones were good. All I was saying is having a similar character to the one you want to play would be a better alternative to having no character you want at all. An example is before akuma released in sfv tokido played Ryu.
I like GG's character designs and am a fan of the lack of clones but I am willing to argue the benefits of the other side.
To continue that we can also argue that anything that isn't only a cosmetic change does count as a unique character. You said no one likes clones but people like Ken and Akuma. ken started as a literal clone of Ryu before they altered his kit, raging demon is hype. Momochi's ken and tokido's Akuma wouldn't exist If people didn't like the clones. Furthermore, none of those characters have the exact same tech. Ryu and Ken can't air fireball and Ryu and Akuma can't step kick.
@@containeduniverselow4790 I like clones when they aren't being used as a excuse to fill a character slot. A little variation can be nice and small changes can have drastic changes to how a character plays like King and Armour King.
3:57 so you can choose character based on both your playstyle preference and your design preference
i like all arounder like ky but cant play It thanks to his toy r u plastic sword
And also a big thing in GG is the rooster pruning, basically unless you are using a OG or a fan favorite you need to switch main every single game because they never bring back the other characters, which imo is pretty stupid but ti each their own
But maybe I am in the minority choosing main caring both about design and gameplay
"unless you are using a OG or fan favorite"
Unless you're Testament, then fuck you. lol
I'm pretty much in the same boat where I've never found a character I like in GG either. I like all rounders with a bit of a focus on range but nobody's ever felt quite right in GG to me so even though I really want to love GG games I always just get bored without a main.
@@Xeroxthebeautiful I used to play Zappa and Bridget in Accent Core, and that was actually fun for me. I also used to play some of Testament. All of those characters are gone now, and no other character really interests me much more
And he didn’t even mention Faust projectiles
Nani ga deru ka na?
I agree with quality over quantity. But you can also have some characters that have overlapping strengths to differentiating then from one another. Like marduk and king are both grapplers but play TOTALLY different from one another. Even kazuya and heihachi etc etc
But you can see similality on king and armor king, and all the mishimas.
When i saw a thumbnail, i was scared to see a SoulCalibur character in a bad side. As a SC fan, i was scared but interested. I was curious, what to have to criticize about my favorite series i always ingore or missed because i get used to this game's rules. But there's no SoulCalibur in this video... Shame
Clickbait in the thumbnail lol
Even tekken 6 Bob lmao
This makes no sense to me. Blazblue Centralfiction launched on console with 34 characters. And every single character looks and more importantly plays completely different from the entire rest of the cast. There's probably more differences between BB characters than GG ones with the Drive button.
Strive's roster is pathetic. People will argue that BB just has it's old characters, well why the hell doesn't GG keep the old characters from game to game? Strive should at least have the entire roster of Rev2 baked in, with only new characters added.
As a blazblu fan i feel cheated that guilty gear strive is looking so smooth while bb's character models look like they haven't been upgraded since calamity trigger and the future of the franchise looks bleak as more time passes.
Probably because 3d models and all the shading they do for just a single one is unique.
@@ThatFedoraGuyyy BB uses hand drawn sprites. Which are much harder to do than 3D models off Unreal Engine that every single fighting game from Tekken to SamSho uses now.
If ArcSys is going to be lazy and use 3D models the least they should do is include a butt ton of characters.
If they put the same amount of work into the characters as they did in GGXXAC+R it would be understandable to have a small roster, but they went the easy route of 3D models.
@@MadDragonify
No it's not. You need to educate yourself on the subject by watching the Guilt Gear design video on this site.
@@richardpankow4714 Except BB uses 2D sprites for its characters, not 3D models.
The problem with the amount of decisions shown with the Guilty Gear is the issue of learning them and recognizing them in a match. If I'm playing Cammy against Dhalsim in the SFV situation, while I might be limited in my options, I can be more decisive in my choice, unlike Guilty Gear. And learning these options and practicing them will be less time consuming, due to the fact that there aren't as many.
This isn't a criticism of Guilty Gear, however, but a difference. You said something along the lines of, "Your game could have a bunch of mediocre rundown characters, or it could have someone like Leo." And while characters like Leo are the pinnacle of what you want, for those not entrenched in fighting games, they may look at the mediocre options and ask for that instead. Simpler to learn, simpler to figure out what they do and don't like, right? With design like Leo, you run the risk of alienating someone who wants to play rundown but learns that Leo isn't their cup of tea, especially if that's the only offer the game makes. (Again, not saying that's not necessarily bad, right, but companies that make fighting games may not want to do that, especially if they want to expand their audience to more casual oriented players)
Now, is a small roster bad? Eh, it could be. As someone who played Power Rangers BTFG at launch, I know depending on the game, it can be a valid criticism. But I think it's way more game-specific.
Songs used in this video:
1-Suck a sage
2-Fuuga
3-A slow walker
4-Enough is enough (~2 minutes into the song)
I am going to buy Guilty Gear Strive when it comes out April 2021 guys, it's gonna be my second fighter after DBFZ (which I suck at). Wish me luck. I just fell in love with the art style and mechanics and it looks so fun to play.
I love how Guilty Gear XX didn't add many new characters(sometimes there were no new characters) when they did a big update, they just kept on expanding on what the character who were already in could do, not only by changing there properties and giving them new combo/pressure routes but entirely new normals, specials and supers that drastically changes how there played, which is unthinkable today where fighting games rely on DLC hype cycles to keep people playing but in my opinion, for a game like Guilty Gear XX it was the better choice
3:56 Lucia being there feels like kind of a reach
Nice vid tho
You remind me in a unique way "Every frame a painting" channel, nice work.
Strives launch just kinda reminds me of vanilla SFV'S in a way. Just SFV dropped with an extra character and universal 8 frame input lag, and terrible netcode lol
i really like this video tbh
but i'm going with the crowd, sf isn't that shallow--
Just for some people, he’s not saying similar move set characters and all are bad, it just means you’re more likely to find the one you like within a play style, but he’s just stating how no one character has any similarity where you could go from one character to another and pull of similar strategies.
It means that the characters that are added truly add more to the table instead of tweaking what already exists to a slightly different play style.
is that not something that can be done with a larger roster though? if you have a game wt a roster of 50 charecters and 20 of them are variations of a charecter that is still 30 unique charecters + 20 more for different play styles that make it more customizable
Rivals of Aether is another good example of a game that chooses quality over quantity in their rooster.
No smash or brawlhalla character will ever have rock
I was wearing headphones when he said Chipp wants to
* S H H HMO VVV E~*
Almost blew my eardrums
Alternative video title: Guilty gear fanboy explain us why his game is better than others. 🧠
The belts are also a tectnic used to drive the viewer/player eyes to the focus point, a body part the designer wants to enphasize or pop out from the bigger picture.
Meanwhile BlazBlue:CS started out with 32 characters and they still all look and play completely differently.^^
Personally i think 15 is a bit small even if each character is really unique. Id prefer 20 unique characters.
I believe when people say that GGST has a smaller roster is because of the price
Its gonna cost around $80 to get the full roster from what we know about the Season 1 pass
Maybe there is a another one coming after SSN1
as the cost builds up and you buy these passes to try out these "new/old chars" you realize its not worth it maybe because you'll only play 2 characters from the base rosters and now you regret spending $80+ dollars in a game that's gonna be $30 2-3 years down the line during sales
Rev 2 Released in 2016 but you can get it for $6.75 during sales nowadays
DBFZ released in 2018 but it drop down to $30 during sales for the bundled version nowadays and I've seen it go as low as $8.10 for the base game
One problem with this philosophy is it makes it harder to play multiple characters as skills dont transfer over as effectively, creating a significant barrier of entry for new players. nuns is like the complete opposite of this.
And then you can have Quality and Quantity cough cough Blazblue Centralfiction.
or ggacr, and you get ggpo in the package, as well as good PC port, both of these bbcf sadly lacks
CF is, quite honestly, more comparable to the “final version” of a game than a new one entirely. Each version built off of the previous one’s system and characters. Calamity Trigger was released in 2008; CF was released 2015 and got Jubei as DLC in 2017. Central Fiction is a game that took over a decade to actually make, released in smaller parts several times to be profitable.
@@uzernamefail
Yes. Central Fiction just last version as they kept adding characters.
Strive's character models are completely new from Xrd's.
Xrd has more interesting character gimmicks and design in general. It does stuff I’ve never seen before. (maybe only in Blazblue) The character design is better to boot, and there is a lot of freedom of expression in your play style.
Strive, though, has freedom in places Xrd lacked it. You don’t have to learn 100 combos to be mediocre, but at the cost of lowering the amount of options and player expression. Nearly every character has substantially worse movement, air to air neutral is sparse and no character really thrives in the air. Despite this, you can’t really overlook how good the base of the game is.
I was hoping DLC would include some more complicated characters, it could make higher level players happier and help new players ease in to higher level play, but so far that isn’t looking good. Goldlewis is just unviable and Jack-O having her gimmick removed isn’t helping despite the fact her gimmick was broken.
This was pretty unrelated but I don’t really know where else you could post a rant like this and have actual discussion.
Imagine if they had to animate unique reaction to the destroyeds for over 50 characters.
7:40 This is probably my favorite section in the whole video. I love how you showed a comparison between GGXrd and SFV, and specifically state that SFV's style isn't bad for what SFV wants to achieve, just that it is very different from the insanity that takes place in GG. This section alone details a huge part of what makes GG special to me.
SFV is horizontal. GG's neutral is everywhere.
your level of understanding of these games is awesome! and the quality of the vids too! great job man! can't wait for the next one! your archetypes video got me interested in fighting games!
I didn't know Ben Shapiro was so knowledgeable about fighting games 😲
He does sound similar to him huh
4:00 Sweeping Order-Sol under the rug huh.
it s about in how many ways a player can express themselves. The roster can have 200 characters. It wouldn't matter if they all feel the same or need to be played in only one or two specific ways.
I still kinda struggle to get into gg. Not because of a small Roster, but i kinda dislike how most characters have some kind of gimmick that define their win conditions.
Sounds like a home-problem.
There are literally only 2 characters I'd say even feel remotely similar.
At lower levels ky feels like true shoto with extra tools
Then Sol feels like extra unga bunga shoto.
Everything else feels very very different.
Bedman even has that trap setup with an 8-way airdash
Another great video. Appreciate the effort that went in to making this. Keep up the good work.
Also, even if some moves are very similar in function, ie projectile used for spacing, they are all very unique in graphical style, this makes them very distinct and allows you to understand that even if they have the same goal you need to deal with it differently since the person using it has a different set of moves to deal with your response.
idk man if the game ends with a large roster then what's really the point of saying quality over quantity if the quantity still ends up being 20-30 somethin characters anyway. if anything it just exemplifies that quantity still matters quite a bit. also, while I don't play street fighter, it's disingenuous to oversimplify all that goes into playing and making street fighter 5 and its roster just to raise up guilty gear
Means it takes time to make characters and one's that aren't clones.
@@containeduniverselow4790 there are barely clones for SFV you could make that argument for SF TWO maybe, but not 5. similar move set =/= a clone lol.
@@unnaturalunderground
The way character projectiles function for the shotos and their DP and hurricane kick and very similar (very slight different applications). SFV is slow, limited and extremely horizontal.
A lil shake n bake (slow neutral) then stick out a move...
The elitism is what i'm getting from this video
I get what you’re saying and I agree that the roster size of GG is good since the characters are so unique and fleshed out. But I can’t agree with your sf examples. In the Cammy vs Dhalsim for example, Sim can float, teleport, buff his fireball, ex Fireball, tk yoga fire, etc. Cammy also has options like v skill through fireballs, hooligan combination which has a plethora of follow ups, and so on. Even the Shotos who share similar special moves have different functions, and I think it’s cool.
Can’t wait for Strive
man reading these comments really got me thinking...
why cant we all just play fighting games we like without throwing a fucking baby rage tantrum if somebody has the audacity to play a game you personally dislike? case and point, y'all need to grow up
I came into this pessimistic but now I'm wanting to play Guilty Gear.
Though, it is a bit weird saying only this series has characters with smaller goals rather than dealing damage. That's the case with...a lot of fighting game series
After watching your character archetypes videos, it really made me itch for more of your video essays. Sad to see so few on your channel, but looking forward to much more from you. Your essays are not only informative and easy to digest, but also oozing with your passion, and there's really nothing better than that. Needless to say, I've got the bell turned on for you from now on. Keep it up man!
"Quality"
Uses Leo in the thumbnail.
🤔
Most games with large rosters end up feeling bled thin. If you go back to older games that had smaller rosters they were the most solid and fun. Also unlocking characters was actually funnest part of fighting games for me.
Tbh you talking madshit about Arcana Heart 3 was very misleading, literally the only similar thing was the eyes, you didn't even show the full art like you did on the Guilty gear Rev 2
Man look, I love Guilty gear a lot, is my favorite Fighting game but don't disrespect Arcana Heart 3 so much, the series is very niche and underground by itself when it has a really cool moveset and at the same time different roaster with a lot of variety as well.
Heart is really the only shoto Character in the game for example, the most common archetype of fighting game char
On top of that there's the arcanas as well who make the gameplay a huge variety
Ok lolicon
This is fucking good. Very well structured. I wish I could get this fluidity in my own videos instead shitty memes and half baked essay lol. If I could subscribe twice I would
4:34 And with this singular statement. You now have a new subscriber Eddventure.
Most 3D fighting games and even some 2D games get to recycle assets at launch, taking the same rigging or even the same model and just updating the textures, animations or the model itself. Smash Ultimate gets to have such a massive starting roster because they already have a metric ton of models and animations to update and tweak, so they don't have to reinvent each character from scratch. Marvel vs. Capcom 2 got to have such a massive roster because the majority of their sprites were just ripped from previous games. KoF got away with yearly installments with large rosters because they just took sprites from the previous games and tweaked the shading sometimes. Even Marvel vs. Capcom 3 ripped some of its Capcom assets from Tatsunoko vs. Capcom. Strive is in the unique position where it's technically a game with 3D assets, but due to the nature of how it uses them, it CAN'T recycle anything.
Mortal kombat having both: "Am I a joke to you?
Yes it is
It feels like I'm seeing GG rise up in content creation and I love it. I didn't notice some of those things about GG and it's Blonde solution. Thank you for this wonderful and interesting video Edd.
Okay but imagine all of this with more than just 15 characters tho. We’ll probably be sold another 10 on the back end.
exactly they are already selling the season pass that includes 5 character as if the base game isn't sold at full price and we will end up with 25-30 characters after a year or two which at the end it's what other fighting games offer you at a reasonable price
Their is alot of assumptions going on in this thread.
What you said is right, but there is one thing you didn't mention if favor of larger, less diverse rosters: there is a higher chance a new player will find someone they like. For example, I'd love to jump into Guilty Gear once Strive launches, since I love BlazBlue and many of the mechanics are shared. However, there is no character in Strive that piqued my interest. When I did a bit of research, I was looking for characters with traits similar to my main in BBCF, Hakumen. I wanted a character with long normals to poke safely in neutral, good defensive tools (ideally a counter) and an incentive or a reward of some sort to play defensively. None fit the bill. Ky has a good neutral and slightly longer range, but no specialized defensive tool or a real incentive to play defensively. Axl has an incentive to play defensively, but I always found zoners pretty boring.
What I'm saying is, if they just put a clone of Hakumen is Strive, I'd be a character with significant design overlap to existing characters. But they'd have one more player in their community.
Ultimately, big rosters are if you want more people to enjoy your game, whereas small rosters are if you want people to enjoy your game more, but nowadays I feel like 25 or 30 characters is a better middle ground than 15.
What about nagoriyuki?
@@facelessguy23
Maybe, but from what I heard his main gimmick is that he's good at playing defensively until his bloodlust forces him to get aggressive. Which is basically the opposite of Hakumen, who is rewarded with aggressive potential if he plays defensively correctly
@@chazaqiel2319 I will just wait for the lunch and try every character and see if a character is fun
@@chazaqiel2319 Nagoriyuki is rather an interesting Robo-Ky revamped. He has some benefit when you went full bloodlust BUT he could not use special move at all and take more damage as a result. So, he needed to exist that mode as soon as possible despite the gimmick by using command grab.
For Robo-Ky, he's a very interesting character, like Order Sol, he had 2 gauge with a completely new Tension gauge interface. Robo-Ky is an extremely gimmicky character since like Hakumen, he cannot gain meter by normal means. Only through Instant Block, placing an Electric Mat, running tackle and command Throw. You can feel that Hakumen is generally built from Robo-Ky. Yes, his specials cost meter as well but depending on how long your meter is, the specials will come out differently. His second gauge is Heat gauge. This will fill up every action you do except the Heat control normal 6HS. The more the Heat, the better with your normals frame, damage and can even do chip damage. The downside is that when that gauge hit 100%, Robo-Ky will explode, knocked down, and take damage. Stop every momentum you got. At round starts, Robo-Ky is very defensive since he is very weak until he got meters much like Hakumen (Though Hakumen's life is easier since he got counters and auto regen meter.)
Rivals of Aether: *looks away with it's 18 character roster*
Smash is also a game with a lot of options and counter options.
Let's say.... cloud and sephiroth. If cloud charges limit then sephy can fish for flares. Cloud can approach sephiroth and then the mind games begin. Sephy can predict cloud doing a down tilt or dash attack and shield. But cloud can dash grab,if that's the case then sephy can prediction jump and down air and so on... it keeps going
No.
@@containeduniverselow4790 wat do yu mean?
Yeah i'd like more characters in my fighting games please.
it's fine to be biased to gg, I love the game but this just comes off as dismissive, reductive and hypocritical towards other games.
He really short shifts SF, in particular, in quite a few different areas. If he's being hyperbolic to make a point, it's not obvious and it just comes across ad poorly considered.
And I actually agree with some of the general ideas and praise he gives to GG, I also prefer GG to SFV, but point still stands.
Wdym lol this is a guilty gear video ofc he's gonna praise guilty gear
@@drowsyspook3455 sure, but can't that be done without being reductive, dismissive, and hyperbolic at the expense of others?
@@zakpodo you clearly lack common sence. This is a video about gg so he's gonna talk about gg, he never said that gg was the only game that does those things right. He has made other videos where he praises other games. I just dont get how its hypocrytical to praise gg when you're making a video about gg
@@zakpodo since you're lacking common sense and you're still complaining that a video about gg doesn't give an in depth explanation about sfv's mechanics this is the last time that I will ever respond to your nothing arguments
@@drowsyspook3455 what you got out of that is that I'm upset for not having an in depth discussion of sv5 mechanics?
This conversation is crazy. It'd as if you're arguing with yourself, because you're batting 1.000 so far at taking issue with things I haven't said and positions I don't hold.
Let me try to make it extra simple for you. He chose to include references to other games in a video mostly about GG. It's possible to do this, and have the comparisons in a way that is not reductive and dismissive. This does not require an in depth analysis of SFV mechanics.
Make sense? There's a concept called nuance. I'd suggest you look it up once you're old enough to think critically.
Nice, I think you need to cover Blazblue as well, because BB has the same fundamental with GG but with different style
Id argue these guys are over designed and too busy. It's just a different kind of too much quantity, and if prefer more characters that have some sameness, because in the end it covers just as much ground, and I have more option as far as subtle design choices I prefer. Like Lucina and Marth in Smash, virtually the same character, but I can pick Marth because I prefer to play as a guy and I like his higher sword tip damage better.
Sameness. Sounds boring. Vanilla. Lazy.
@@containeduniverselow4790 Those aren't synonyms at all, but if we're listing words we find relatable I'd say, elegant, intuitive, and flexible. I'll take a warm slice of bread and butter over a chocolate cake with sprinkles any day. And while I'd still like to try Guilty Gear one day, the characters generally have to many sprinkles for my taste.
I don’t know why people care about big rosters because unless your a very high level player, most people only learn like 3-6 characters. The only exception I’ve really seen is smash because learning characters in that game is really easy while in other games you have to lab out a character to do really well
yep , and the larger roster of Smash Ultimate is only a result of Sakurai copying and paste those characters from previous smash. So pretty much only 3-4 characters from original roster and the DLC characters are the actual worthy to learn and everyone else is ignorable..
@@phantasosxgames8488 so you’re saying pickachu, bowser, Mario, mewtwo, Roy, marth, ganon, bayonetta, snake, fox, falco, wolf, Kirby, pichu, and jigglypuff all play the exact same as previous games and that all new characters that aren’t dlc are the same. If you actually believe your comment you definitely don’t understand smash
The fact that this video started with Chipp's theme, hooked me
Smash does not deserve this solely because it has a big roster. That's the point, and there is still a ton of work that goes into them. Somehow, it's the most balanced smash game there is.
Technically, Smash Ultimate's roster was carried over from Smash 4 which was carried over from Brawl, and so on. So that example is a little unfair. Also, 10-16 for a new fighting game has always been the standard, unless it's anime arena fighters (which are almost always quantity over quality) or tag team fighters like FighterZ or Mahvel. Generally, if a game starts with a bigger roster, it's because it was brought over from the last game. GGS is being built from scratch with a new look and mechanics, making it essentially a new sub-series, so the starting roster is fine. Also because I just want a reason to mention it, Kill La Kill If's roster is designed pretty similarly. It's small, but every single character (aside from DW Satsuki and Ryuko who still feel somewhat distinct) feels completely unique.
Thought these video essays would be boring but it wasnt and i learned something too.