Motorcycle Corners: Why is there so much controversy over this???
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- Опубликовано: 28 июн 2024
- What is the proper technique to negotiate a corner on a motorcycle? Is it trail braking or is it slow - look - press and roll? Some coaches and instructors are dead set on what is the correct answer...this week let's talk about it.
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Ive been riding for 40 years and still use both. It depends on the situation, weather traffic, lighting and so on .
Yep
Well said James….
Both, too. SLPR buys options that trail breaking doesn't, I'd argue.
@@davidbrayshaw3529 like what? Can you give some examples of options? Not disputing, just curious.
Only 38 years for me, but what james said.
I think slow, look, press and roll is better for the absolute beginner for one reason. It is much more likely for a brand new rider to grab too much front brake and tuck the front end. With that being said, starting between 6-12 months of solid experience when a rider has learned to have precise control over the front brake at that point they need to be adding the trail braking tool to the toolbox
Well said
Frankly, that beginner needs to spend more time on side streets & the parking lot before he/she spends much time on the highway. ...I'm not encouraging brand new riders to trail brake, but they should probably be exposed to the basic idea of braking in a corner (with the warnings), and should _definitely_ quickly become experienced enough with progressive pressure on the front brake that they wouldn't immediately go down if they did apply it it in the middle of a curve.
Just my opinion. Motorcycles are death machines. Seems foolhardy to ride around for 6-12 months before being introduced to a significant safety tool. (Assuming the main roads are curvy in your region, I guess? I know it helped _me_ survive unexpected surprises in my lane within my first year, at least. 😁)
I am comfortable using either method, but there is one aspect of my riding environment that I feel is a huge factor. I live in Edmonton AB and as a winter city our riding season is short and the roads here are quite bad. Temperature swings due to hot summers and bitter cold winters cause the pavement to heave and crack so roads are rarely smooth here. Also road crush in the winter months means loose gravel on the sides of roads in Edmonton is a constant factor. Get out of the groove and too close to the side and you may hit left over road crush and slide. I can't tell you how many times I've had to deal with a sliding front wheel due to road conditions. Because of this I often avoid trail braking as I do t trust the roads I ride on. I play it safe and roll thru corners without getting on the throttle till just before I stand the bike up. This is just what it's like to ride here.
I trail braked by instinct once when taking the corner faster than I should have; it got me through it.
I agree, Kevin, using the slow look and turn to I had issues with corners, when I didn’t judge the corner correctly and really tightened the old pucker factor. Then I started using trail braking and man what a difference. Thank you again buddy for all that you do.
The one thing I think most useful with trailbraking is that it allows the most flexibility when riding in places I do not know, or if I encounter something unexpected (like say an oncoming car in my lane in the corner). The other method tends to lock you into a trajectory you potentially cannot alter very easily if you misjudge the speed of the corner or encounter a threat mid corner.
What you say is fair, but I think part of the answer is to reduce entry speed so that you can stop within what you can see.
(An advantage of trail braking is that it effectively makes stopping quicker, allowing a faster entry.)
From my personal experience on the twisting roads of N. Idaho, I've found the advice of using trail breaking has saved my but more than once. The advice I was taught in my MSF Basic course, of Slow Look Press & Roll, was fine until I got into linked turns... Very modest trail breaking will always be my go to technique.
It is a rare corner where I actually need to use the brakes. At posted speeds, you can navigate the corner without any slowing down at all, or using micro-adjustments to the throttle to control desired speed
Now, for the corners where you actually do need to slow down for (either because I'm exceeding posted speeds, or it is a downhill grade with forget at the bottom), then:
1. Cut the throttle to 0% !!
2. then, use brakes to slow before entering the corner. Even trail braking requires you to do the MAJORITY of slowing prior to corner tip-in
3. Use trail braking if still over speed entering the corner
4. Once at desired speed, transition off the brakes (completely), and once no longer braking: start throttling up to maintain desired speed.
At no point should you ever use the front brake against the throttle. Never use both at the same time.
I had to chuckle at your first sentence. Maybe it's me and I carry the posted speed (plus 5-10 mph?) closer to the corner, but I use braking with trail braking a lot. They taught us in track school that you are only and good/fast/safe as your skill and confidence on the brakes. Yeah, there's body position, quick-flick turn-in, and throttle control.......but the brakes.....If you don't know how to slow down and continue to slow after turn-in, you can't go anywhere. So I try to practice brake control as much as possible. Plus, it is just plain fun.
@@rhyswilliams254 I'm definitely trail braking (a lot!) if I'm "spirited" riding. 🏍️
If I'm cruising within speed limits, then I'm not touching any brakes.
@@rhyswilliams254 I don't think anyone is saying you can't or shouldn't continue to brake beyond the point at which you start to lean the bike, or use the brakes mid-turn, if you have to. The disagreement is with those influencers who imply you're an idiot if you don't "drag" your brakes into every turn.
In the Cycle World feature "The Pace" Nick Ienatsch described how he and his riding partners would ride in a "spirited" fashion and not flash a brake light for extended periods. Why would those riders need to be dragging their brakes into every turn?
I have learned a lot from your videos after 6-1/2 years of returning riding experience. Now I still find myself using basic training methods and occasionally the more experienced methods, still learning and training as I ride. Thank you
Enjoyed the video. I use both techniques at times. Mostly trail braking. When riding in a group, slow look roll works because the speed of riders decreases as the group negotiates a curve. I have found that the key factor in curves is speed.
Well, the speed is important true, but that lunatic behind the bars is actually the key factor.
One thing trail breaking has taught me is to consistently cover the front break lever. This technique has saved my butt on multiple occasions.
You're not just covering it, you have taken up the play in the lever and your brake pads are already in contact with the rotors. That saves you precious time if you have to initiate a hard stop, and has the front tire loaded to increase traction. Definitely the way to go.
Very fair advise, Kevin!!
I went with my girlfriend and took a California motorcycle safety certification class. I’ve been riding for years with 2 fingers on the front brake. Just hovering. A good habit in my mind. The instructor ripped me a new hole for doing that. 🤣
I’ve had too many critters and cars jump out in front of me to ever stop riding that way but in beginner class I was counted points down for doing it😊
Strange instructor it's always good to be ready to brake but 4 fingers are better than 2
I cover my brakes quite a lot also, but I've only got my license and been riding for a couple of months now.
I only ever use 4 fingers for very much anticipated braking, like for speed bumps and tight corners I know of.
Only problem with a 2-finger cover, is when you really need to grab some brake... you're limited on your braking because you have your other two fingers in the way! You end up having to open your hand before you can really grab some brake. Since the flinch reaction already caused you to start braking, you have to momentarily release the brake in order to move your fingers. It's kind of like keeping your left foot under the brake pedal in a car.
@@elconquistador7363 depends on the bike / brakes. If you can do a stoppie with two fingers, then two fingers is all you need. Some bikes need more pressure (bigger cruisers and the like).
@@elconquistador7363 I would offer that having the other two fingers in the way because you are using two fingers to brake means you need to adjust your brake lever. I adjust my lever so I get 100% braking before I smash my ring and pinky fingers, plus I have much better "feel" when using two fingers for braking which really improves bike control like when trail braking. It is even more critical in the dirt. You really need good "feel" on the front brake when off road where traction is sketchy. Proper brake and clutch adjustment is VERY important and often overlooked. Stick the tools you need in your pocket and go out for a brake/clutch adjustment test ride. Try different setups. I think you'll like it.
Depends on the situation and rider skill level. Instructors tell new riders not to trail brake because they are new and it can be dangerous if you get it wrong. But knowing how to trail brake is a good skill to have in the tool box.
I've learned that being a bicyclist, it's not too different from riding my motorcycle regarding corners etc.
It depends is a good theme here. Well said.
SLPR is most of my flat land riding with 30degree to 90degree flat curves and turns.
However it is problematic on steep grade stacked switchbacks and 120degree to 180degree curves with poor banking....trucks or other bikes crossing the line in blind curves....debris appearing....an animal mid curve.
These are my daily trips home, so I am usually trail braking or covering the brakes with light pressure once i get into the twist mountain roads I live above.
Tuned on from Kampala - Uganda. Thanks Kevin.
I've been riding for 50 years. 35 years ago I took the California Superbike School course. Basically I was using the SLPR that learned there. When I heard about trail braking I started to experiment with it and realized that I really had been doing it wrong for decades. It's never too late to teach an old dog new tricks.
A couple of corrections to the description of the methodology.
Trail braking sequence- touch the lever just enough to activate the front brake. When the weight transfers decisively activate the front brake to set corner speed in a very short distance, then progressively release as lean angle increases. You do not “maintain “ pressure on the front brake. Remember you aggressively add pressure after the initial weight transfer, you want the front to compress,then release it at the same rate lean angle is added.
The MSF way has the rider progressively adding pressure as the motorcycle gets closer to the corner. This wastes valuable braking distance Then releasing at the point where lean angle begins. And if the rider feels uncomfortable they continue adding pressure as they enter the corner, instead of releasing it as they enter the corner. If the trail braking rider feels uncomfortable they simply don’t release as quickly and stay on the outside line. And unless your way over the ability of the motorcycle it all works.
If you ride the speed limit or maybe only 5-10 mph over the suggested speed for the curve then don’t worry about it???Maybe not, the MFS procedure works fine, until it doesn’t, then the MSF rider is in foreign territory.
The MFS way is fine until the environment changes to an environment that now requires more braking in the mid corner. Remember that initial weight transfer? Well that is mandatory before adding more pressure at lean. And if your married to the MSF way you WILL NOT get this done midway through a blind corner where the vision is reduced to a degree that even the posted suggested limit puts you in a position to ride in history, not in the future, not in the present, but actually in the past.
In the above scenario we have to use the brakes to catch up to the environment so we are at least perception reaction time riding in the future. There’s just not enough time to perceive and initiate the braking process from the beginning.
Additionally the above described trail braking technique works with the motorcycle geometry and design, so as to maximize the engineering for cornering. The MSF way is relying on suspension performance, mostly rebound control to achieve a state of balanced control. We all know how horrible stock suspensions are on 95% of motorcycles are at controlling dive and rebound, and now your asking for that control at lean? That over the top stroke causes a significant weight transfer to the rear which is the worst thing possible for a turning motorcycle.
In the end always remember you chose a hobby that when you make a mistake it could injure or kill you. You should always be a student of the sport, and always be “that” student who would be willing to spend thousands, if at least you had it to spend, on training. If not go play golf.
“It depends” is exactly right Kevin. And as usual you’ve nailed this subject. A combination of SLPR and trail braking in one’s riding arsenal is paramount while riding on the street. New riders with little actual riding experience can grasp the SLPR concept easier - in my humble opinion - than trail braking based solely on the complexity of riding itself. This is why we need continuous practice.
Another great video Kevin. It will likely generate many differing opinions. My introduction to the trail braking advantages and technique were gained through a Total Control Advanced Riding Clinic. The inclusion of this technique certainly increased my road-speed cornering ability and greatly increased my confidence level through the turn. As you know, riders should learn this technique by practicing at lower speeds (about 20mph) in a straight line, concentrating on smooth applications of throttle and brake controls. There are many good books out for riders who want to know more, Lee Parks Total Control is just one of them. Keep up the good work.
Great video. I use both methods depending on speed but always use front brake on the road.
I've started assisting at the MSF ranges in my town. I'd have to say the new riders are so overwhelmed by the amount of skills and information they are being taught. But, I think more could be said about being smooth, where that is taught the students seem to pick it up quicker. push/counter steer and smooth throttle-smooth break are probably the primary things they should learn, and not to try and push limits until they receive more formal training. I've only seen 4 MSF coaches now, Still learning myself how best to coach the material, that will probably take a life time. Glad people like you are out there for those seeking to improve. Trail braking was eye opening to me, and that you can shift from 5% break progressively to a full break in a corner, SMOOTHLY.
You never know HOW MUCH braking a corner asks for beforehand, so you wanna be on them until you are happy with speed and direction 🎉
Bingo!!!
Deer! I've found in high deer traffic area trail braking is a life saver.
This was completely new to me, after a couple of years of riding. Stoked to get out and practice a different technique. Thanks
ruclips.net/video/hcXyB3vfv4U/видео.htmlsi=T9XWSbhhbuwNQ_xX
Thank you for the video. I feel like this topic is starting to gain some traction, finally. About time.
All the things you said made me go - this is exactly why the curriculum should change to go into the details of why we do certain things when riding. Not just what we do.
Right out of the MSF course I felt like oh, this stuff is easy. However, some things did not make a lot of sense, e.g. always accelerating through the corner. But I convinced myself that it must be one of those weird things with motorcycles like counter-steering. Except that it was constantly not producing results I was told it would… Instead of gaining confidence thru increased stability, I felt like I was always guessing how much throttle is appropriate for going through a given corner (especially the blind ones) which was leading to throttle modulation which, you probably guessed it, invariably led to bike instability.
It took me a nasty crash, many years of hiatus and some focused work with qualified instructors to rediscover a better way to ride.
I was talking to a friend of mine, the other day, a brand new rider, who was made to believe that touching a brake while leaned even slightly would make you go down immediately. I kid you not, there was a real fear and disbelief in his eyes when I told him there a better way to ride.
There’s nothing wrong with introducing new riders to the subject of grip and grip levels and what it depends on (surface type and condition, tire and suspension load, etc.) Teaching trail breaking is easy - you just have your students learn it in a straight-line braking to develop the feel for it. They should learn ramping the lever pressure up and then ramping it down while getting stopped before/at the target. That is it! It could be all you do for starters. Introducing *some* lean angle together with *some* trail braking is a natural next step. And pretty safe, too.
Telling students that braking in the corner is a 100% cardinal sin and should never be done is irresponsible and potentially harmful.
Instead of the scare tactic, show all the tools available and explain the limitations and dangers as appropriate.
Clearly, only two days of classes and parking lot drills is just not enough to forge a confident, knowledgeable and safe rider. But I get it, it is an appealing format. Maybe mandating a stage 2 training course with a deep dive into more advanced techniques as a precondition for graduating from a permit to a full license could be a good option.
Ride safe, everyone!
trail braking on the highway, changed every thing. Its so much more fun, safer and teaching you how to be ready for any thing.
I’ve been riding since 1979. The slow, look, press, and roll was the primary way I used to ride for many years. In recent years I naturally gravitated toward trail breaking. I still feel that both techniques are useful. But trail breaking allows me to enter the turns much faster with more control.
Well said.
In February 2019 I rented a Honda CB500X in Chiang Mai, Thailand to ride the 4-day loop to Mae Hong Son. A bucket list trip. On the 3rd day in the mountains west of Pai I approached a sharp left downhill corner. Carrying a little front brake into the turn I leaned the bike over, the front tire lost traction and I immediately went down. Numerous people stopped to help me. (Thais are great people.) The bike's bars were slightly bent, and I got 2 broken ribs. When I got up while several people were getting the bike to the side of the road I ran my foot over the pavement - it was slick, almost like the black ice we get in early Spring in Pennsylvania. February in Thailand is the middle of the summer, it had not rained for at least 3 months, making the pavement extremely slippery. From then on I went back to slow-look-press-roll. Trail braking works fine, assuming you know for certain that the pavement in a turn is free of debris and has normal grip. On the track that is a safe assumption. On the street, not so much.
I just learned trail breaking about 5 yrs ago. I have used it a lot since then depending on the situation. For example going into the curve a little too fast. I apply about 3-5% of my breaking power and it tightens the curve right up. To me it’s just another tool in the toolbox.
Thanks, Kevin. This was one of the best descriptions of Trail Braking, especially in context of the Slow, Look, Press & Roll that the MSF teaches. I'm now going to check out your Trail Braking videos!
To me it makes sense when learning then advancing with experience later, more tools in your belt the better. Thanks for the discussion.
IMO, with curves usually comes hills. Big twisties = Big hills. SLPR is great going up hill... Down hill um, not so much. Trail braking provides much more control especially in downhill situations. I use both methods, it really "depends" on can i see the exit of the curve before commiting to the entrance of that turn. If i can see all the way through the turn, SLPR wins. If i can not see the exit, trailbrake 100%. Yep, DEPENDS!
There is a third technique that no-one seems to know or talk about. As a motorcycle instructor myself in Australia, as I come to a corner, lets say I am doing 60kms per hour (this of course depends on the corner type you are coming up to) lets say a 75 degree, I push on the back brake while still maintaining the throttle generally I drop 5 to 8 km's through the rear brake riding and if I need, because I am going too fast and am going wide, I can push firmer on the rear or if I am turning to tight I can let the rear off a little. As I come out of the corner I let go of the rear brake and the bike picks back up to 60km per hour without me having to do anything other than remove my foot from the brake.
Now this technique DOES rely on people doing the recommended speeds for the corners, and for them not to be a moron trying to go as low and as fast as humanly possible around a 180 degree u-turn, but I have applied this technique to corners ranging from 10 degrees to a complete 360 (entering a freeway corkscrew turn) and everything in between and never once have I ever come close to crashing or under turning a corner.
I teach this to people who have been riding for 30 years and they go why didn't someone tell me this 3 decades ago. Go try it... Put your throttle on lock it to the speed you should be doing around the corner, apply the rear brake (as much as you need to do the corner DONT be gentle push as firm as you need to and feel the friction on the rear brake) drop 5 to 10 kms via rear brake, as you come out of corner release rear brake and go back to speed.
THE ONLY DOWNSIDE to this technique is you do tend to go through rear brake pads.
I love it when someone consistently makes content that is concise and clear. There have been other explanations which I felt didn't make as much sense to me. Thank you for keeping us on our toes and making responsible content.
One other thing I'd add to this is to get to know your bike as a new rider, or if your bike is new to you. I replaced my previous non-ABS bike with a different style bike which happens to have a basic ABS system. I realized quickly that it feels different in the wet. If a bike feels different straight up and down under braking, it's going to to feel a lot different tipped over in a corner under any braking. Take the time to practice at lower speeds.
I completely agree with your assessment. I actually use both when riding. Depending on the situation that I am in and where I am riding. I think I may have mentioned this, But I am also in the North Texas. area. Always look forward to your content.
Thanks again.
I use both, depending on my speed and frame of mind. They are both great tools for our riding arsenal.
On mountain roads with downhill curves it can be impossible to use slow look press roll because you'll corkscrew into the bend accelerating at too high a speed by the apex.
Roads are generally so bad here in Michigan, I’m afraid to trail brake.
I have only been riding a couple of years. Judging speed before the corner can be challenging. I practice braking and have found that speed correcting after initial turn in a crucial tool. This is more important in faster corners where one can misjudge the speed and run wide. I can also attribute this to my lack of skill in cornering. I would rather have higher skills in braking than crashing Ina corner.
Great video. I think trail braking is actually an advanced rider technique.
New riders may have difficulty initially judging corner speeds.
As you point correctly point out you need to have more speed to actually use trail braking, the last thing you want new riders doing is approaching corners too fast for their ability. 👍
I work for Washington Motorcycle Safety Training, and our new curriculum (supplanting MSF) has the students putting two fingers over the front brake from the very first time they get on the bike. Smooth brake and smooth throttle use is emphasized by literally dozens of reps of static, then moving, practice. So far this curriculum has almost eliminated novice crashes from improper brake use. You should know that Champ School had considerable influence in the curriculum development. As a long-standing MSF instructor, I believe that graduates of this new curriculum are better prepared to practice and gain experience in skills that are critical to safe riding. We teach for the street, not the track, but knowledge from the track can build better street skills, at street speeds. Too many MSF instructors graduate students who have no idea that there are skills that were not taught, but are vital for street safety.
Thanks for your input, good to hear.
as always a voice of balanced reason. there usually is a pro and con on most things.... and yea, it just depends ;-) always a joy watching your vids MC...thank you for what you do.
This comparison is good because I’ve read in other forums confused discussion of maintenance throttle and trail breaking.
"That's a neverending debate... So let's discuss the best oil to use. "
Golden! 😂👍
Good video! "It depends" is the absolute best answer to this issue! I had a couple bikes when I was 16-20yrs old. I'm now 62 and just last year got a bike again. Somewhat of a learning curve but not to much. Watched a lot of your videos and have used your advice, got right up to speed on technique. First videos that mentioned trail braking had me wondering exactly what you (and others I watched) were talking about. Once I watched several and got the concept, it was like, duh, doesn't everyone do that? It was just natural to brake like that for me. I grew up farming and farmed until 2006, now drive truck full time. I guess running equipment for that many years ingrained how to operate any kind of machine (bikes included). Great explanation in your video on this.
My MC (RE 650) has a lot of engine braking even in 6th gear so that if I am to use 'trail braking' at all, I have to enter the turn really hot with some throttle. For me, this is a bother and makes me feel unsafe therefore I nearly always wait until I'm very near the corner to reduce the throttle to zero, and use the front brake to that last bit. By this time, I have dumped all the speed I want to and any further braking is superfluous. I zoom through the corner by counter steering and if going a tiny bit wide, I just counter steer a bit more, but rarely use the front brake. When I can see the exit, I gently roll on the throttle. I do have my hand near the brake and I'm looking through and at the corner for road hazards and am ready to swerve or apply progressive braking.
It is my opinion (in my present state of training and knowledge) that genuine trail braking is not a technique that I or my particular kind of MC is adapted to or meant to use. However, there are bikes (specifically sports bikes) and their riders who get a lot of enjoyment from that feeling of "Cheating Death" that actually WANT to enter a corner super hot and therefore NEED to use trail braking and I'll leave it to them to develop it and use it.
On my favorite country twisty road, three motorcyclists in the last couple of years have been killed entering curves too hot and I have no idea how many have been injured. I myself, two years ago entered a curve on that road too hot and ended up with an extensive knee operation and 12 days in the hospital (and it totaled my old bike). Only by sheer luck of timing did I avoid a head-on with the van (that I sideswiped) that would have killed me. No, entering hot and pretending a country road is a track with the devil behind me is something I've had knocked out of me.
I used SLPR for many years. The way I learned trail braking was when I got into a corner to hot. Now I use it any time I am out in the twisties.
Thanks again Kevin for the excellent videos. Been riding for over 50 years and trail braking is only 1 of the tools that I use that you have taught in your videos. Thanks to your training I am riding better than ever. I feel more confident, safer and enjoy the ride so much more. I use the front brake in turns regularly and if trouble pops out onto the road in front of me I am ready to brake to avoid hazards. With practice I can now stop in a shorter distance than ever straight or in a curve.
Loved the training wheel analogy. Sums it up perfectly!
Ya know those of us that learned to ride half a century ago are still learning and take some of these helpful tips. But find a lot of habits good and bad have been doing many of these techniques. But learning why is nice to know…
I believe it is good to mention it at the beginning. As riders get faster, they will start applying the trail breaking technique without thinking, it is good to teach it early, just as we teach push steering. We use it driving, so folks should practice it and not just use it when a panic mid corner happens and they jump on the brakes.
Excellent presentation. Logically explained and presented as a “both” rather than an “either or”. Now, about the best oil to use…
Full synthetic
@@MCrider😂
@@MCriderIt depends.
"It Depends" applies to a lot of scenarios. When my wife rides with me, I prefer the S-L-P-R. If her weight shifts while in the corner, it is easier to manage going through the turn. However, the trail-braking is always a tool I keep handy when I need it. Some mountain roads change the arc from when you enter the turn to just before you exit the turn. I feel an experienced rider needs to be able to switch tools on the fly as they navigate ever changing environments as they need. Good lesson! I am glad to see someone tackle this heavily debated topic. Now what's this thing about oil...?😄
Although I had been riding all sorts of motorcycles for 30 years, I feel perfect understanding and balance eluded me until I got an electric unicycle. An electric unicycle, after you stop crashing it a zillion times, imparts perfect knowledge and feel as to how a gyroscopically-stabilized vehicle behave in turns, under braking, in acceleration, and while being counter-steered at low and high speeds.
Also, being able to back up and turn a motorcycle down an incline with feet on pegs is always going to be hugely impressive, yet it's a simple skill that an electric unicycle will teach you.
A great balanced approach to this debate Kevin. Well explained pros and cons of both techniques and good diagrams. 👍🏻
Valuable insight, I am practicing trail breaking primarily to get myself used to using the brakes in a corner so if I need to I can, I also think there is benefit having your hands already on the brakes. But when I first got on a bike there was way too much happening to throw in trail breaking.
Good video. With just about anything you do in life, It's better to have more than one tool in your toolbox. That's why training and practicing is so important. For simplicity, the examples assumed constant radius turns, level roads, consistent surface conditions and local knowledge, but none are guaranteed. It's best to know how to do both, know when to do either and, above all, don't come into an unknown corner too hot.
Great video. Thank you!
Excellent advice and video. Instructor from Australia.
Great points. I agree with you 💯, you hit all the key points in the topic
I did training on a car park, leading to a basic handling skills test, this has to be passed before you can sit the theory test and get a learners licence. About 2 months later I purchased my first bike and the following morning I had a 2 hour 1 on 1 lesson on the road. We spent a bit of time getting the slow speed stuff covered off, down the highway street and in the suburbs before heading out of town. The instructor took me out to a twisty section of road with a 100km speed limit. He had me follow him, talking to me about picking the line and road position, then he followed me, again talking to me. As my confidence grew I was able to pick up speed and choose good lines around bends.
That first road lesson I was definitely not thinking about trail braking, but I continued with developing my riding, attending further training days over the next 12 months and learning more advanced skills including trail braking.
I don't consider myself a fast learner, or particularly confident, I was in my late 40s when learning to ride so I did have reasonable road knowledge, albeit from a driving perspective, and I think that this is a technique that other riders should develop.
I'm sure some riders may be able to pick it up as soon as they start riding, but not all. However it probably should be worked on within the first 12 months of riding to give all riders another skill to keep them safe, its better done with personal training not off an internet video.
I feel it helps to lean forward and bend the inside elbow too.
The controversy never ends until your in the corner and speed and gravity step into the discussion. Those two….well, they always win.
Riding since 1970 with some racing in there, currently sitting at home nursing my new knee implant as a result of getting cut off by a car 11 years ago! Yep, I broke my knee in a slow speed accident, but I managed to make it last till now….I guess I should be thankful for that.
Good points. There are many corners which need less speed at its middle section than its entry section. But, can not be seen and evaluate the middle section from the entry point (obstacles, changing radius, etc.). So need to break further at the middle section. Without trail breaking technics, and without pre-loaded front tyres, a sudden front breaking on a leaned motorcycle may cause front wheel lock up. However I do not prefer trail breaking, because am not so profi. I use a lower shift gear before the corner to increase the effect of engine break if necessary. Font break lever covered 2 fingers in case of rolling of the gas not enough.
Good video Kevins.....as you stated Depends as in your speed into the turn and the conversion points. I personally like to accelerate while I'm in and coming out of turns. I feel more in control of my bike.
It’s no surprise running wide is the most common motorcycle accident. If you’re adding throttle throughout the turn, you’re running a high risk of running wide.
This has blown my mind . I have been on harleys for 30 years and have never heard of trail braking. I will play with trail braking
Excellent Description!!
Use both methods. I learned the trail breaking method from you and another instructor's videos. Had to actually practice/apply the trail breaking on solo rides in rural twistes before I would use in urban or group riding. I will use in urban riding then turning left or right at an intersection when NOT starting from a stop. Now let's talk engine oil!
Another awesome video
I feel like the slow, look, pres, roll is more thinking ahead and being prepared. I've tried both but having the front suspension loaded is more beneficial for that surprise around the bend. Thanks for getting me thinking about it.
Always set your suspension when going into a corner. It’s taught in the pursuit schools I’ve been in and also is a better control choice. What I haven’t heard addressed is those with ABS usually have linked breaking. I’ve a BMW R1200 RT which uses both brakes when you use front brake but only rear brake if using the pedal. Slow going and using front brake will drop the bike if any lean is going on. So I had to unlazy myself (yes I made that word up) and return to just using rear brake when going slow and my world is so much better.
Thanks!
I use the It Depends!, simple, thanks from Montreal!
Great video. I agree it depends. In a perfect world every new rider could be mentored/trained from novice to expert individually, but it's not a perfect world. I imagine a new rider trying to trail brake on a corner, hitting the brakes so hard they lock up and the rider wipes out. So yes look, press and roll is good for basic riders.
Well put. I was fine with the old ways, but going fast - wasn't nearly as fast as I wanted, and it was dangerous in an incompetent way, not a cool way. Trail braking was the safe way to feel closer to Valentino Rossi (or in my age group - Eddie Lawson). Now I do It every time I reach a corner that will require slowing down. Learning trail braking was like learning how to improvise guitar solos in the right key - like riding a bike. It felt like another level of riding expertise.
I am curious about your preference when corner may have gravel or be wet.
YEP been doing both for years. I am a former MSF Instructor. Depends on the situation. Nothing replaces experience and awareness.
Good info like you always said (practice make perfect)
Practice makes permanent.
Good practice makes perfect (permanent)
Very well spoken
This was very interesting. I’m going to practice this.
ruclips.net/video/hcXyB3vfv4U/видео.htmlsi=T9XWSbhhbuwNQ_xX
I believe most of the controversy is due to different reference points and approach to risk management. There is the crowd that defends the aggressive techniques that will lead to fastest laps but forget to stress these techniques are better suited to the race track, given the uncontrolled nature of the "real world". Trail braking, for example, is a great technique but can lead to accidents, if not well executed. Many content creators neglect to mention that. You did mention in previous videos (Thank you). Cornering in general must take into account speed, effective braking, visibility, road conditions, obstacles, etc. The key for a fun and safe ride is to practice and adapt your ridding and usage of techniques according to your experience and environment. I am still haunted by some accidents I saw involving young riders who start w/ 1000cc sport bikes and wanted to mimic what they saw professionals doing on race tracks. We all want to keep ridding for many years and certainly not injure anyone either. My best wishes to the community!
I use trail braking most of the time, and only in urban setting do I brake straight up and down. But it's not a high-risk technique if you move the risk of trail braking over to lean angles. That is, if you mess up trail braking then simply lean further over but still within your comfort lean angle. Leave that margin of safety.
It's of my opinion that trail braking versus straight line braking is just not very important compared to how far and how hard riders are willing to run into the turns.
I strongly prefer to only trail-brake in most situations because tire wear then becomes even between front and rear tires, and the "press and roll" crowd has really high rear tire wear (like 2 rears for every front). But I also have confidence in myself to lean a lot more over if I misjudge the turn, as I'm not going into the turn with all that much speed. Bombing through turns is a bad idea no matter what kind of braking or lean angle you're willing to risk.
Although I've owned I4 liter bikes, I find them too difficult to ride even with rider aids. 95 mph is still second gear on them, and they don't feel fast because they're so well-behaved, but that also makes it very difficult to judge speed and get the timing right. Although I haven't ridden a racetrack in many years, I'm forever grateful for starting on tiny bikes instead of these huge 1000cc bikes (which are weirdly cheap, by the way).
@@langhamp8912 I can agree with most of what you stated. Again, to me (and your comments seem to also lean on that direction) experience is a key factor for effective and safe technique use (i.e.: Trail braking). Cheers.
@@corujariousa It may be training and not really experience even thought training is a type of experience. I say this because my first trackday showed how much I simply didn't knowing didn't practice with despite having a fair number of miles and years riding (since I was 14). That's why I'm skeptical of riders who say they've been riding for X number of years...unless they have a fair number of trackdays (they don't even have to be fast) on a variety of motorcycles (road bikes or dirt bikes), then their opinion of things like trail braking aren't of much use because they haven't actually ridden a motorcycle at much beyond cruising speed.
@@langhamp8912 I get your point. Motorcycling is like sports, if you do not challenge yourself with variety (play against better players, try more weight, try more challenging circuits, etc) you slow learning to almost a stop. Most riders are perfectly OK with that but if we want to take on riskier and more difficult situations/terrains, we must ensure we add variety like track days, courses, try different bikes, etc. All the best to you!
I usually use my front brake but just slowing down in a straight line I usually use the rear brake.
One Trail Braking video refers to downhill switch backs (staircase). All riders keep the brakes on until they’ve begun straightening the bike up after passing the apex.
The point here is even new riders are practicing trail braking whether they know it or not.
I think it’d be good for MSF courses to make new riders aware of this even if they can’t practice it on the course.
I was also told not to use the rear brake apart from when coming to a stop, but on a downhill bend, I frequently apply some rear just to stabalise the back wheel seeing as it goes very light being downhill, already front braking and cornering.
That said, I recently completed level 3 of a RAPID training course (BIKEMASTER) and they never said use trail braking and these are ex police and ex racing riders - their philosophy was that you should have done all of your braking prior to entrance (walk in, run out) and during the corner was to "maintain" so there should be high revs, no brake, keeping even weight between front and rear tyres, looking for the limit point starting to go away in order to open back up. Their method does not change with weather (other than obvs. taking "wet lines"), so it does work ALL the time.
All of that said, I do find myself "feathering" the front brake VERY occasionally (an old mountain biking habit), but that tends to be on unfamiliar roads where I'd rather not have to surprise the tyre if I did have to re-apply mid corner / unexpectedly. If I do, I tend to also hover over the rear in order to balance the weight between front and rear if need be.
I'm no expert, but I was one of the faster riders on their track days (did 4) - just to add context.
It depends, I use trail braking most of the time, slow down for the corner, pick a path, an exit then accelerate, remember, gravel is not your friend and vehicles that don't know what a yellow line is. My motto; I'm not going into a corner to see how fast I can go but to survive! Trail braking is one of the most beneficial things I've learned for riding a motorcycle. Good subject.
I'm nearing 60 years on motorcycles. For street riders, do any braking, if needed, before entering a turn. Hold 'maintenance' throttle (the rear tire is neutral, no forward drive or braking )to the apex, then start applying throttle exiting the turn. This directs 100% of grip to holding the bike up. Trail braking is for racers on the track.
I'm an msf guy who's highly safety conscious and I use both. On a casual ride, slpr is more than enough if your observation skills are good enough. When we get a little more playful at the twisties, trail braking gives me more confidence with my ride. I still do extensive observation, limit point tracking, positioning and all that but the small psychological boost trail braking provides makes the experience more enjoyable, comfortable and safe.
Regardless of preference's. It is fare more beneficial to learn how to do both and any other techniques as a rider. Knowing how to do something in an emergency is better than not knowing if you need it.
I live in hilly terrain so a lot of turns and curves are at steep angles with narrow roads. So i use a mix of trail braking and counter weight to maintain safe distance from the opposite lane.
I'm not sure if I'm using one or the other - I think I'm using a combination of both. Both hands and right foot working at the same time, a little rear brake, a little front brake and a little clutch, throttle on at apex - maybe riding for a fall?
Well said.
I just took the course this week, and my instructor was great. He taught us SLPR but also talked about trail braking. He allowed us to brake in the turn, but advised against it so we didnt lock up the front wheel.
The front brake on a low speed turn is very risky. At road speeds it is perfectly fine -- just be gradual with it and not grab a handful of brake suddenly.
@beepbop6697 he did mention the speed, but in everything he stressed never grabbing a fistful of brake. He also mentioned that the brand new ones like us may not have the skill and control to not lock it up and that it's something to work towards. I'm brand new, so videos and helpful tips like yours are much appreciated.
I use both, in town, Slow look press roll in the city, starts and stops, traffic 15-30 mph. Tailbraking on the open road because of the speed approaching and entering into the corner
thank you for the video.
"press and roll" never made sense to me, passed msf a few yrs ago and only watching this video do i understand what "press and roll" means. nothing against the technique, just seems unclear way to describe it for some ppl (or at least me). not sure i have better suggestion, since that was probably chosen because its easy to remember and the - press right go right, counter phrase they use to teach counter steering
. maybe something like - slow look aim, throttle is clearer?
This may sound odd but I never really thought about the technique.
Lets start with I never really road a bicycle with traning wheels. Before I had my own I jumped on a cousin's bike with trainers. Road maybe a half block. Hated it, felt out of control. There were no parents worried back then. Pushed the bike back. Got on different bike no trainers. Fell once and that was all. Never fell again unless xoing something stupid.
So now older, jump on first mini bike off I went. Road it a few times one summer. Then just had bike.
Next step several years later. Road a friends dirt bike one day in a pasture. Decided I wanted a street bike. Went out over the next two weeks looking. I test road a couple no lessons. Bought second one. Took it home on Friday. I know what was in the license testing books. Practiced in my small neighborhood including emergency braking, cone manuvering, shifting and slow speed balance. Spent maybe 4 hours.
First day DMV was open I took written test, passed. With learners permit came back with bike and a friend. Asked to take road test. The instructor was shocked. Said if I failed I would have to wait 6 weeks to try again. I said I know. Took test passed.
So I bought, my first bike and passed tests in under 1 week. That was in 1981. Still have my bike license, no formal training. Don't ride much im my big town now. But the point is, I never took classes, I was never questioned about skills other than doing test by the book. Never even thought about exact details of which type of braking would be best. I just did what ever felt right for the situation.
Well that was 42 summers ago. Amazing how much different the world is today. I personally think modern society has taken all experimental experiences away from the average person. I mean it is what it is. One last note, my first driving experience was actually on the interstate in the snow. Go figure.
When an area where corners are more prevalent than straight roads, what about staying in a gear that allows the motor torque helps slow down the motorcycle?
Engine braking is an option if performed correctly and in the right circumstance
I got my licence in 2019. In Melbourne, Australia, they never taught any of these techniques. Unless I wasn't paying attention, the only thing we learnt was to avoid braking while in the turn, so it was ideal to do most of your braking before entering the corner and accelerate out when we were exiting the corner. Other than that, we should start the corner wide and finish tight. I only heard of slow, look, press, roll whatever and trailbraking on RUclips (plus from other riders who also heard it on RUclips).
The first one was way too many moves and steps to think about when cornering. I know it's only 4 steps when you break it down, but to me, I always hear "slow, look, press, roll, this, that, up, down, yada, yada" whenever I hear a RUclipsr bring it up.
With the second one, trailbraking, I did attempt it a few times but because I had slowed down to a comfortable speed for the corner, if I maintained any pressure on the brake, I would stop and tip over so I found I would actually have to enter the corner faster than I was comfortable with to be able to execute the corner while still having some slight braking, increasing my risk of running wide if I misjudged the speed.
So I just do the most basic, slow down and reduce to a comfortable gear before actually entering the corner, and powering out. Only if I misjudged and went in too hot I might maintain some gentle. consistent braking. If I misjudged and started going too slow, I'd just add a gradual steady throttle and power out a bit earlier to balance.
I've learned and practiced trail breaking in an advanced MSF course and have not used it outside of that class. I'm never going fast enough through curves for it to be useful. I get that it preloads the front end of the bike, but since I'm going slower I don't need nearly as much braking distance anyways so I will just use the braking in a curve techniques I learned in the same class.
Where I disagree with you is that TrailBraking should be taught from the very begining and do away with the antiquated Slow Look Press & Roll.
Have you taught a new rider class on a confined parking lot with a class full of students?
These are riders who lack brake and throttle control. Crash rates would skyrocket.