There's some joke about the "Cat" sol ring being Schrodinger's double faced card, that plays on the fact that existing in two states at once is kind of like having two faces: this joke is left as an exercise to the reader to formulate.
Ooh, let me try: Erwin Schrödinger draws for turn, flips a coin, then pulls this Sol Ring out of its sleeve, flips it around, and puts it back in. Amy asks what he's doing. Schrödinger replies, "I'm collapsing a wave function."
If he wants to have me on, I'll gladly fly out to make it happen. Until then, everyone will have to settle for this ruling he helped me with: ruclips.net/video/7QwpT65C0DM/видео.html
My own soapbox here is that I am not a fan of MDFCs not saying how they work anywhere on them. Most MTG interactions can be puzzled out from the card text, but the fact that MDFCs can't transform is just something you have to know.
The rules would be a little simpler and a little easier to intuit if MDFCs could transform, but you would need to add the caveat that no permanent can transform into an instant and sorcery. Would that still be easier to intuit with the exception? What other consequences would come from changing the rules in that way? Would those consequences be bad for the game?
My most favorite question I'd love to have covered just because it's funny, it was posted to the Swedish MTG web page back in the day when I was training to become a judge. Sorry for butchering the names typing on mobile. Abby controls a Glissa the traitor and a Grafted exoskeleton. Ben controls a Melira sylvok outcast. Abby equips Glissa with the exoskeleton and attacks. Ben blocks with his melira, what happens? Spoiler after this part, Melira dies, having no damage nor any -1-1 counters on her from Glissas death touch. If Dave covers this topic you will know why :) judges in the comments can probably figure it out but it's a funny one
I saw an interesting deck built around transforming double-faced cards by animating them, equipping them with a blade of shared souls, turning them into an incubator token and using its transform ability.
Yeah, as long as the Saga you're trying to remove counters from is, or has become, a creature (and the counters are still on it i.e. it hasn't left the battlefield in the process), then those lore counters are ripe for the removing with Tayam (who incidentally, I just learned about thanks to you, seems like a cool card!) Tayam + Sagas + Starfield of Nyx/Opalescence/Similar sounds like a pretty cool (if a bit janky) deck idea. Anything that removes counters is always fun with Sagas; may I recommend Power Conduit
I try to avoid editorializing as much as possible because I think most people don't (and shouldn't) really care about my opinions, just the educational content. Still, I think a little humor from time to time is important to keep the videos from being too heavy and as a reminder not to take things too seriously.
A little bit sad we didnt talked about planeswalkers thats transofrmable, such as Jace, but I guess its ultimatly the same. Honesty If this was part of lvl 1 exam back when I was doing them (never become one had no mentor)..I think I wouldnt exactly successed lol. Thanks for the video very informative.
If an Elesh Norn with a lore counter on it is then transformed back into The Argent Etchings, still with one lore counter on it, does the first chapter ability trigger immediately, when the next lore counter is put on it, or not at all? Or does something else happen? edit: CR 107.15a means that the first chapter ability means "When one or more lore counters are put onto The Argent Etchings, if the number of lore counters on it was less than one and became at least one..." Since no lore counters are put on it as it transforms, no chapter abilities trigger. When a second lore counter is put on it, the number of lore counters on it was one and became two, so the first chapter ability will never trigger.
Unfortunately, the text given in Scryfall makes it appear to be a modal dfc, and there isn't a convenient way I could find to get Gatherer to show me the Oracle text for _this_ Secret Lair Sol Ring.
@@JudgingFtW Ah, should've checked my sources before making such an argument. So, although there is an argument based on oracle text (same (English) card name = same card, and Sol Ring is obviously not a DFC per its normal Oracle text), it's a difficult argument to make visually/in a video. Scryfall... really didn't need to program that printing's entry that way, did they? Kind of inconvenient. Well, anyway, while you're here, can I just say I love your videos and you're a really cool guy and have a great day!!!
What about if your Toralf's Hammer becomes a copy of Huntmaster of the Fells while there's a Mycosynth Lattice in play? Can you transform it to the front side then and end up with a Toralf when the copy effect wears off?
So, if i understand correctly, if i have a melding card on the battlefield (like the mightstone and the weakstone) i can target it with the ability, but nothing will happen right? Because it is not considered a transforming card?
That's interesting as far as the Invasion of Ravnica. I would've expected it to just see 0 counters and just flip back. A little surprised it goes to the graveyard instead if it just starts with 0 counters.
Oi 😂 norn with lore counters as a creature is kinda funny to think about.... But that also means other creature sagas can be flipped this way 🤔 Fable of the mirror breaker 😳 Seems like a cool trick
I'm now fascinated by the design decision for the Gnome backface effect to cause TDFCs to ONLY transform, and not exile and return transformed. Because while I personally would prefer if every transform effect ONLY transformed without exile, they have clearly shifted to preferring the "exile and return transformed" pattern in most cases INCLUDING ON THE "CRAFT" ABILITY ON THE FRONT FACE OF THE GNOME ITSELF! The fact that there are two patterns at all means it could never work for everything without smaller card text, but the fact that even this SINGLE CARD is schizophrenic about which pattern is preferred just seems like a self-mockery of the transform design guidelines!
JUDGE! I have a new screwy situation thanks to the new cards. I cast Artisan of Kozilek, by emerging it, sacrificing Herigast, Erupting Hellkite. Can I bring back Herigast with Artisan's cast trigger? I'm pretty sure I know the answer, only a 2 star day at worst I believe, but it's something that may come up in some formats now :)
What if I [Threaten]ed my opponent's [Creeping Inn] and then flipped it with [The Golden-Gear Colossus]? Do I still lose control of the [Hostile Hostel] at the end of the turn? Or I guess generally if I gain control of an opponent's object until the end of turn, but it transforms during my turn (like if I took an [Elbrus, the Binding Blade] and hit them or a human werewolf and cast a [Moonmist]), is the control still tracked across transformation?
Short answer; transforming will not make a difference to Threaten-type effects. Control tracked across transformation, as is the end of limited-duration control effects. Transformed/untransformed, tapped/untapped, face-up/face-down (which is usually morphed, manifested, disguised, cloaked, or something weird like Ixidron), and flipped/unflipped (from Kamigawa block), are the four states that any permanent can be in, and iirc none of those will shake any continuous effects (like control, power/toughness buffs/debuffs, colour/type changes, abilities granted/removed... anything that is processed within layers (except of course the card's innate abilities and properties likely change when you transform it, flip it, or turn it face down)). They also won't shake off counters or Auras/Equipments. Um, that's probably *more* info than you need, but yeah-
No, a Saga triggers when one or more lore counters are put on it. (As per CR 714.2b) And it compares the number of lore counters that were on it before and after one was put on, and only triggers those abilities in between. So transforming Elesh Norn//Argent Etchings back and forth with Golden Gear Collossus will trigger each chapter ability only once at the beginning of your upkeep, or if you put Lore counters on it some other way (but the last triggered chapter ability would stil exile it and then return it as Elesh Norn with no counters)
712.2. Transforming double-faced cards have a Magic card face on each side and include abilities on one or both of their faces that allow the card to either “transform” or “convert” (turn over to its other face) and/or allow the card to be cast or enter the battlefield “transformed” or “converted” (with its back face up).
There's some joke about the "Cat" sol ring being Schrodinger's double faced card, that plays on the fact that existing in two states at once is kind of like having two faces: this joke is left as an exercise to the reader to formulate.
Ooh, let me try: Erwin Schrödinger draws for turn, flips a coin, then pulls this Sol Ring out of its sleeve, flips it around, and puts it back in. Amy asks what he's doing. Schrödinger replies, "I'm collapsing a wave function."
The Professor needs to have him on a shuffle up and play of judges tower or something
If he wants to have me on, I'll gladly fly out to make it happen. Until then, everyone will have to settle for this ruling he helped me with: ruclips.net/video/7QwpT65C0DM/видео.html
My own soapbox here is that I am not a fan of MDFCs not saying how they work anywhere on them. Most MTG interactions can be puzzled out from the card text, but the fact that MDFCs can't transform is just something you have to know.
The rules would be a little simpler and a little easier to intuit if MDFCs could transform, but you would need to add the caveat that no permanent can transform into an instant and sorcery. Would that still be easier to intuit with the exception? What other consequences would come from changing the rules in that way? Would those consequences be bad for the game?
reading the card explains the card. They don't say "transform" on them anywhere, so they don't transform
@@FransLebin That's not what that phrase means, that's not how it works, and that's not the reason they can't transform.
@@FransLebin They also don't say "you can play either side" on them anywhere, which kinda goes against the aphorism there.
@@Yesnomu That's what the little bar in the bottom means. Also the DFC in the upper left corner is slightly different, but that's a lot more subtle
Okay, the Sol Ring bit gave me a good chuckle.
My most favorite question I'd love to have covered just because it's funny, it was posted to the Swedish MTG web page back in the day when I was training to become a judge.
Sorry for butchering the names typing on mobile.
Abby controls a Glissa the traitor and a Grafted exoskeleton. Ben controls a Melira sylvok outcast.
Abby equips Glissa with the exoskeleton and attacks. Ben blocks with his melira, what happens?
Spoiler after this part, Melira dies, having no damage nor any -1-1 counters on her from Glissas death touch. If Dave covers this topic you will know why :) judges in the comments can probably figure it out but it's a funny one
I like this question. I think it would make a good short because the answer is pretty simple, if unintuitive.
I was with you until you said Melira dies without being dealt damage
@@williamdrum9899 Melira was dealt damage. She just doesn't have any damage marked on her.
@@OMGclueless wat
I saw an interesting deck built around transforming double-faced cards by animating them, equipping them with a blade of shared souls, turning them into an incubator token and using its transform ability.
Oh that last part about sagas and no counters gave me a fun idea for Tayam if it'll work in regards to it's ability.
Yeah, as long as the Saga you're trying to remove counters from is, or has become, a creature (and the counters are still on it i.e. it hasn't left the battlefield in the process), then those lore counters are ripe for the removing with Tayam (who incidentally, I just learned about thanks to you, seems like a cool card!)
Tayam + Sagas + Starfield of Nyx/Opalescence/Similar sounds like a pretty cool (if a bit janky) deck idea. Anything that removes counters is always fun with Sagas; may I recommend Power Conduit
Really REALLY like hearing Dave's editorializing, deeply good bit
I try to avoid editorializing as much as possible because I think most people don't (and shouldn't) really care about my opinions, just the educational content. Still, I think a little humor from time to time is important to keep the videos from being too heavy and as a reminder not to take things too seriously.
A little bit sad we didnt talked about planeswalkers thats transofrmable, such as Jace, but I guess its ultimatly the same.
Honesty If this was part of lvl 1 exam back when I was doing them (never become one had no mentor)..I think I wouldnt exactly successed lol. Thanks for the video very informative.
Thanks, another commander I get to annoy my pod with so they can learn these intricate rules as I have.
If an Elesh Norn with a lore counter on it is then transformed back into The Argent Etchings, still with one lore counter on it, does the first chapter ability trigger immediately, when the next lore counter is put on it, or not at all? Or does something else happen?
edit:
CR 107.15a means that the first chapter ability means "When one or more lore counters are put onto The Argent Etchings, if the number of lore counters on it was less than one and became at least one..."
Since no lore counters are put on it as it transforms, no chapter abilities trigger. When a second lore counter is put on it, the number of lore counters on it was one and became two, so the first chapter ability will never trigger.
Um, I feel like a much simpler answer for why the Sol Ring is not considered a DFC is by citing its oracle text.
Unfortunately, the text given in Scryfall makes it appear to be a modal dfc, and there isn't a convenient way I could find to get Gatherer to show me the Oracle text for _this_ Secret Lair Sol Ring.
@@JudgingFtW Ah, should've checked my sources before making such an argument. So, although there is an argument based on oracle text (same (English) card name = same card, and Sol Ring is obviously not a DFC per its normal Oracle text), it's a difficult argument to make visually/in a video.
Scryfall... really didn't need to program that printing's entry that way, did they? Kind of inconvenient.
Well, anyway, while you're here, can I just say I love your videos and you're a really cool guy and have a great day!!!
Nice long episode. Good stuff! Loved the bit about sol ring (I totally agree)
What about if your Toralf's Hammer becomes a copy of Huntmaster of the Fells while there's a Mycosynth Lattice in play? Can you transform it to the front side then and end up with a Toralf when the copy effect wears off?
So, if i understand correctly, if i have a melding card on the battlefield (like the mightstone and the weakstone) i can target it with the ability, but nothing will happen right? Because it is not considered a transforming card?
That's interesting as far as the Invasion of Ravnica. I would've expected it to just see 0 counters and just flip back. A little surprised it goes to the graveyard instead if it just starts with 0 counters.
wait yeah what why the heck does that happen
wasnt there a combo in standard that was all about flipping a battle it having no defense counters on it and it automatically flipping back
Battles trigger to transform when you *remove* the last defense counter.
Oi 😂 norn with lore counters as a creature is kinda funny to think about.... But that also means other creature sagas can be flipped this way 🤔
Fable of the mirror breaker 😳
Seems like a cool trick
I'm now fascinated by the design decision for the Gnome backface effect to cause TDFCs to ONLY transform, and not exile and return transformed. Because while I personally would prefer if every transform effect ONLY transformed without exile, they have clearly shifted to preferring the "exile and return transformed" pattern in most cases INCLUDING ON THE "CRAFT" ABILITY ON THE FRONT FACE OF THE GNOME ITSELF! The fact that there are two patterns at all means it could never work for everything without smaller card text, but the fact that even this SINGLE CARD is schizophrenic about which pattern is preferred just seems like a self-mockery of the transform design guidelines!
JUDGE!
I have a new screwy situation thanks to the new cards.
I cast Artisan of Kozilek, by emerging it, sacrificing Herigast, Erupting Hellkite. Can I bring back Herigast with Artisan's cast trigger?
I'm pretty sure I know the answer, only a 2 star day at worst I believe, but it's something that may come up in some formats now :)
Herigast will already be in your graveyard by the time you put Artisan's triggered ability on the stack, so it's a valid target for that ability, yes.
This was quite a ride wasn't it?
What if I [Threaten]ed my opponent's [Creeping Inn] and then flipped it with [The Golden-Gear Colossus]? Do I still lose control of the [Hostile Hostel] at the end of the turn? Or I guess generally if I gain control of an opponent's object until the end of turn, but it transforms during my turn (like if I took an [Elbrus, the Binding Blade] and hit them or a human werewolf and cast a [Moonmist]), is the control still tracked across transformation?
Short answer; transforming will not make a difference to Threaten-type effects.
Control tracked across transformation, as is the end of limited-duration control effects. Transformed/untransformed, tapped/untapped, face-up/face-down (which is usually morphed, manifested, disguised, cloaked, or something weird like Ixidron), and flipped/unflipped (from Kamigawa block), are the four states that any permanent can be in, and iirc none of those will shake any continuous effects (like control, power/toughness buffs/debuffs, colour/type changes, abilities granted/removed... anything that is processed within layers (except of course the card's innate abilities and properties likely change when you transform it, flip it, or turn it face down)). They also won't shake off counters or Auras/Equipments.
Um, that's probably *more* info than you need, but yeah-
What happens if Tetzin is face up and a battle flips and the back side is an artifact?
What about if, in the Elesh Norn example, you flip it again with one lore counter? Does the first chapter trigger?
No, a Saga triggers when one or more lore counters are put on it. (As per CR 714.2b)
And it compares the number of lore counters that were on it before and after one was put on, and only triggers those abilities in between. So transforming Elesh Norn//Argent Etchings back and forth with Golden Gear Collossus will trigger each chapter ability only once at the beginning of your upkeep, or if you put Lore counters on it some other way (but the last triggered chapter ability would stil exile it and then return it as Elesh Norn with no counters)
oh nice, I got everything right!
Do the Transformers cards count as transforming DFCs? The cards themselves specifically say that they convert rather than transform.
712.2. Transforming double-faced cards have a Magic card face on each side and include abilities on one or both of their faces that allow the card to either “transform” or “convert” (turn over to its other face) and/or allow the card to be cast or enter the battlefield “transformed” or “converted” (with its back face up).
Not if you ask Hasbro's lawyers. (But all joking aside, yes, they do count as transforming DFC's for the reason the other commenter pointed out.)
that sol ring being legal in sanctioned play is honestly a disgrace
What a headache
Elesh Norn with Lore Counters?
Well, thanks for a really janky idea.