Comparing the Cleric in D&D 5e to Pathfinder 2e
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- Опубликовано: 19 авг 2024
- In this week's video I continue my exploration of the Pathfinder 2e system and compare a cleric in PF2 to one in D&D 5e to see how different they really are.
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What do you think of the differences between the cleric in 5e and PF2?
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A great video, as always.
One little thing that you missed though, that I've noticed that everyone on RUclips misses when discussing the cleric in PF2:
Your deity matters.
The way 5E handles the relationship between Domains and deities is nice for quick pick up and play- pick a Domain you like, flavor your god to fit, then go.
PF2E's is more involved- and to me, more meaningful. It gives you a skill training, your access to Domain Focus spells, three spells from non-Divine lists available only to clerics of your deity (e.g. Sarenrae's clerics get Fireball), and Gods and Magic even created a whole new background with ability boosts that vary from deity to deity. Finally, the edicts and anathema give a clear sense of the relationship between the cleric and their deity- what's expected of the character, and the lines they should not cross. The downside is that if none of the 200+ gods in PF books/on AoN fit, it will take some thought and work for a GM to homebrew one...
Which is exactly what I did for my table's resident Weydan (a Starfinder god) worshipper when he pitched me his concept, and it was a really fun conversation that only took about 20 minutes.
So yeah. The deity matters to the religious caster character in 2E, and I feel like that gets overlooked a lot.
This exactly
I agree completely. Part of the reason is a lot of 5e players are either used to having the gods have no mechanical impact, or play in a homebrew world, so when you bring up the way gods interact with mechanics in PF2 it can be a barrier almost.
I know in my case, because I run PF2 (and 5e and PF1 before that) in my own homebrew world, I don't even fully register anything that mentions the gods in the system itself.
@@IcarusGames Yeah, I could see it as a barrier for a new GM to design a god block for a player, even with the existing material providing lots of guidance and examples. It's definitely more of a mechanical hill to climb before you get to where it pays off.
For my part, I like seeing the relationship between RP and G being two-way, and this is an example of how PF2 handles it. I can appreciate that it isn't everyone's cup of tea, even if it's very much what I like.
Hello from a new fan! I just discovered this channel a couple days ago and so far I'm loving the PF2 content.
If you're taking suggestions for future content, I'd love to see a video on the classes that perform well in the classic party roles like frontline, blaster/damage, support, healer, and social/OOC utility. Something like - "I'd recommend x and y for reliable fight control" etc. I'm coming over from familiarity with DnD systems and contemplating a switch to PF2. However I'm seeing a bunch of class names I don't recognize as well as differences between classes with the same name (it was your 5e vs PF2 fighter vid that caught my eye initially). It would be helpful to get your take on what classes to dive into when trying to fit into a party lacking a certain role.
Another thing is when I try to look up a class tier list for PF2, the consensus online appears to be that fighter is a bit above everything else, but almost every class is viable. I'd like to hear your thoughts on class power levels and which ones you'd recommend for a new player. Even if you just released a video saying "play what you want, everything works" that could potentially help folks. For instance, you probably wouldn't recommend a new DnD player start with a monk, and I don't know if there are similar classes in PF2 that are easy to mess up or are simply bad. Especially since there's so much crunch/wildly different choices even within the same class in PF systems.
Regardless, thanks for the PF2 content. Hope your channel sees a lot of growth, you deserve it!
Imo, the simplest advice for how to sort classes by complexity is this: Anything from the Core Rulebook (CRB) apart from alchemist is pretty simple, after then Guns & Gears classes are pretty close (and simpler than CRB's spellcasters), then it's kind of a mix of the Advanced Player's Guide, Secrets of Magic, and Dark Archive classes which whilst not all too too complicated are a step above, and finally alchemist sitting way up there in complexity.
For power, fighters & bards are generally considered slightly over-tuned but not too notably so, with all classes being pretty viable as long as you know that casters are designed to have a variety of options + better at support than blasting, with the additional note that with Witches and Alchemists have some slight issues with design making them pretty much the only classes which you need to be careful not to accidentally build them "wrong" (Like, you won't be dead weight, but you might notice the difference still)
There will definitely be more videos along that line coming!
Generally though, all classes are viable, it just depends on what you're looking for. A lot of wizard players I find come from 5e to PF2 expecting to be blast casters and deal super high damage, but then get disappointed when the fighter outshines them in damage output, but I'd argue the PF2 wizard is more designed for utility rather than pure damage. A sorcerer would probably be a better blaster caster choice than a wizard!
My favourite class, for example, is the Thaumaturge, which is like a van helsing style character that uses their knowledge of monsters to defeat them. Typically you'll only be making 1 attack a turn, but that attack will hit like a truck if the other special abilities you have go off properly.
@@IcarusGames Good to know, I'm really enjoying the PF2 content from the few people doing it (relative to DnD). I look forward to more from you, especially regarding classes like Thaumaturge that you're passionate about.
I'm glad you think all classes are viable. The more I read the more I realize how much more balanced PF2 is. By that I mean there doesn't feel as if there's clear "right" choices, like if you play 5e Barbarian you're almost certainly going Totem. Granted that's from the perspective of never having actually played it. However, a lot of people seem to agree and that apparent balance really frees people up to play whatever character type they'd like and still feel useful.
@@zachariahmerry2396 Thanks for the reply :) I have been doing some reading in the days since. I haven't had a chance to do deep dives but from what I have come across you are preaching gospel. Fighter rocks, bards are basically always handy, witches and alchemists are a fun 2nd or 3rd character if you like the flavor.
Clerics don’t need to learn spells to prepare them in both systems, but in PF2e, they still need to learn them using a spellbook if it is an uncommon or rare spell.
No? Uncommon and rare just means you should ask the gm first. Clerics still have access to all their spells as long as they meet the prerequisites.
@@flameloude Nope they don't. They don't exactly learn them but they do need to gain acces to them somehow. GMs might decide that gainning access simply means they say "OK you can prepare this spell" to the player (btw DMs can do this for other classes as well, even those that do learn spells, if they so want), but they work much better as rewards. For example a GM can grant one spell or two to a cleric because he helped a temple of their god, defeated a powerfull enemy of their deity, learned a specific prayer in a book that grants them a spell they could not get with their old rituals and prayers etc.
@@flameloude No, they very explicitly don't. The GM can give them access to more, but the intended route is using the Learn a Spell activity (which is why there's language describing how repertoires work even for non-spellbook prepared casters).
The whole point of the rarity system is give GMs an easy benchmark to be able to freely offer common elements to players knowing they are unlikely to cause any problems with system balance or story elements. By gating uncommon and rare elements behind GM discretion, it allows the GM to control power levels and potentially game or story breaking elements more easily.
The cleric's spellcasting section reads "Your deity bestows on you the power to cast divine spells." so a GM could have a cleric's deity bestow them with uncommon or rare spells without using the Learn a Spell activity, or they could use the Learn a Spell activity to have the cleric acquire the spell without divine intervention.
@@IcarusGames Ye but that is true to classes that have to learn spells as well, GMs can simply let players pick those spells when they level up to add to their repertoires if they so chose. It is not the intended way to do it tough, for either case, the intended way to do it is for casters to use in game methods of gaining access to these spells, whatever you decide it looks like (the Learn a Spell activity is the standard but not the only way) is up to you, but just telling a divine caster they can now prepare X or Y spell is not the intended way.
These spells wouldn't be rare or uncommon if the cleric's deity simply granted them to everyone without any sort of conditions, be it research or gaining favor with your deity in some way.
I think a magor difference between them is also in the healing spells. Pf2e has heal, a variable spell that changes based on how many actions are used on it. This means that even though you have to pick your spells ahead of time, you do not have to have both healing word and cure wounds spells. I have also found that pf2e heals are WAY more powerful and with Devine font spells always being your highest spells level a 2 action spells can take your front line fighters for half hitpoints to full in a single spell.
Also I like that your divine font is tied to your charisma score. In pf2e a cleric is the voice of their divine power, having high cha is rewarded in more healing spells.
In 5E, a cleric can use a shield emblazoned with their deities holy symbol as a spell focus. This eliminates the need for them to take the war caster feet.
This is true for spells with Material components. If a spell has Somatic components without Material components, however, a free hand is still necessary, regardless of the holy symbol being on the shield
One of the most interesting topics coming from the channel so far
The spellcasting thing is in fact incorrect for 5e, specifically for clerics. Clerics cast using a holy symbol and the holy symbol item description states: " A cleric or paladin can use a holy symbol as a spellcasting focus. To use the symbol in this way, the caster must hold it in hand, wear it visibly, or bear it on a shield.", so the cleric and paladin in fact do not need a free hand.
edit: minor spelling mistake
Only if the spell has a s and m component. A spell focus does not work if its an s but not an m component.
No, they still need a free hand available to manipulate or touch the amulet. If they use a shield, however then they have it in their hand already.
They need warcaster to deal with the somatic components of spells. It’s a feat tax if they want to use a weapon and shield or a two handed weapon.
On the shield would fine for the material components of any spell, but somatic components still require a free hand. It's a strange interaction with the rules that is easy to overlook (and to be honest, I bet less than half of tables actually micromanage the free hand/material part of spellcasting anyway).
@@IcarusGames Yeah, most of the tables that I have played with don't even bother with materials unless they are the costly ones like the diamonds needed for the revive of vice bell et cetera.
Cleric, pfft
Try comparing ranger *I DARE YOU*
It's on the list ;)
👏👏👏
One personal thing I'd note is that while PF2's Cleric has 30 choice points, a lot of them are less important skill feats. It's the class feats that really set builds apart from each other, which are considerably fewer (but still a lot) than the promised 30.
Of course, not all choice points are equally as impactful, but between skill and general feats alone you could still make two clerics in PF2 much more distinct from each other than 2 clerics in 5e I feel.
Cleric in PF2e really sucks. I recently played one-shot, we have cleric in our team, his healing skills were really great but his character was completely forgetable. After that I checked rulebook and reason for that became obvious.
Gods and religion in PF2e are boring, especially if you have any religion knowledge. Say I want to play cleric of Mars-like god of war. It's impossible, not only there is no war domain. Yes, you hear right, one of most common domains throughout whole humans history just doesn't exist. Splendid, but let's say I'm really stubborn and I push my Mars ripoff through. In PF2e he gets nerfed. Deities are obliged to be patrons of 4 domains, so Mars cannot be god of war, you must water him down with three useless ones like might or zeal or.... hmmm we're short of fitting ones, well maybe passion, yeah put passion there. And in a second from legendary Mars the Warbringer we have Mars the Warbringer, the Mightbringer, the Zealbringer and also the Passionbringer.
And that isn't even most absurdal combination.
Gorrum is the god of war
@@thewerewizard6721 Really? Nowhere in rulebook he is called this way. In other systems he certainly would be just straight Gorum, god of war, but PF2 is not like other systems, it must be absurdaly convoluted.
@@andrzejc.9572 "He is the god of battle above all other pursuits and is believed to be present in every iron weapon of war." Everything about him describes a god of war. His title isn't "god of war" but he very much is one.
@@thewerewizard6721 I just write about it in previous comment. It's obvious that his function in this pantheon is being a god of war. But this is Pathfinder, you can't call him god of war, you must be "original" and "ground-breaking" and invent something like god of battles. Other benefit of this is that you can make him really sanitazed deity. Just like Cayden Cailean is sanitazed (to absurdal american PG level) Dionysus, Shelyn is sanitized Aphrodite mixed with sanitized Apollo. But the worst is probably Pharasma, her domains are death / afterlife, fate and knowledge, in real religions it would be divided into three deities, completely different, very iconic deities, but in PF2e you have this something.
By sanitized you mean not overly cruel to their followers? The evil deities would cover that aspect.
Are you just paid by PF to advertise for them? I mean I get you like it, but every video seems about how you are just a big fanboy. But something isn't really adding up, because both of the game shops by me have either NO PF stuff or moved it to clearance. Both say it doesn't sell.
If you've been watching the videos for a while you've seen that my switch from 5e to PF2 as my system of choice has been happening for the last year.
Paizo have never given me a cent. I get some of the PDFs for free, but I bought all the physical books I own with my own money because I AM a big fanboy.