Pathfinder2e Encounter Building
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- Опубликовано: 15 окт 2024
- Let's talk about building encounters in Pathfinder Second Edition, specifically. We will go over the basics, the reference charts, and how to determine what monsters your party will fight.
You can find these charts on page 489 of the Core Rule Book (get yours at amzn.to/3bENz9p) or you can head over to the Archives of Nethys at 2e.aonprd.com/...
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As always, welcome to the Collective!
NEW GM: "Pfeh, my players handled six Deadly encounters in a row in DnD5e! I should make all my encounters Severe AT LEAST in order to challenge them."
SAME GM, TWO TURNS DEEP INTO COMBAT: "Oh no!"
I feel like every veteran GM in 2nd edition has done this, haha.
"I know how to build encounters!"
"Oh no!" is exactly right, haha.
D&D 5e's weakness with CR is largely due to the variability of action economy between classes .
Two additional items I've learned: 1) If running an AP ensure your characters are 1 level above recommend, 2) If home brewing add 1 to the monster level for difficulty calculation. Both ideas are credited to Vanessa Hoskins, and hold true for running Iron Gods in 2e with my group.
Absolutely. Dont be afraid to adjust an AP (or any encounter building) you're running if your players are having trouble or just not enjoying the difficulty! At the end of the day, its your table, and you know what's best for your table.
One thing I like seeing/doing is an extreme encounter where the PCs know they don’t have a chance. Maybe they heard some story about the enemy beforehand. Now add an NPC party member who is a jerk or a “frienemy” who the PCs won’t miss. Preload the encounter so the enemy so that the NPC gets brutally hurt or killed. Instead of trying to kill the enemy then, the focus is instead to run away and survive. Bonus point if, after they are stronger and better, they are now able to tackle this foe.
Absolutely! This is a great tool in a GM's arsenal! I tried to cover this in our Building Better Encounters video!
Love it: Warning, it works!
(Don't fix it, it ain't broke) ;-)
That said, your warning about going HAM on one creature with your budget is serious and can't be stressed enough.
Exactly!
I had 3 giant cockroaches fight off 3 level 2 PCs, so the cave would feel more alive. I thought that they will be able to beat them with ease, but I was wrong and I had to fudge dice rolls so they won't get TPK by cockroaches, but the cockroaches were really lucky as well.
Just after the game I realised that that was a severe encounter. Now my players got PTSD from that fight
Yes, adjusting for party size is often over looked! Even if it's just someone having to miss a game, dont use the same encounters you'd originally planned! Make those adjustments! Haha.
Good video, short and to the point. 🙂
Thanks for watching!
0:23 Hey! Dat was me! Awesome video, thank you. Definitely have a better understanding on encounter building now.
It was you!
I have a high end severe encounter coming up (150XP) but I'm actually pretty sure it'll be fine. I combined the two ghoul fights in Extinction Curse book 1 into one fight spread throughout the whole crypt, added in a strong monster that can be handled more socially (Bone Croupier) that I plan to reveal himself after the ghouls are defeated, all but one of the PCs have darkvision, a couple elves/half-elves, and a couple PCs that can cast Heal (one being a cleric). And with how the corridors are the enemies (7 ghouls, 1 ghast, and the bone croupier for 6 level 4 PCs) can't flood them, they're going to hit and run mostly.
Oh and the Bone Croupier also has a relic for one of the PCs since he needs a bit of roleplay push. He enjoys the game and wants to get into character but has trouble with getting into character being aphantasic. Which I totally get since I am too.
Ghouls can be surprisingly deadly - that paralyze is no joke. But yeah this should be fine at that level. But be ready with a backup plan. A bad first round of fortitude saves can be disastrous with that many ghouls.
@@CollectiveArcana For sure. Fortunately it is in a tight tunnel system. In the first round only one can get to the party and it will almost certainly slam up against the paladin who should have no problem against it. Plus it's a bottle neck so while I plan to have them hit and run they can still only do so much since most of the party has range or reach. And there's a cleric, a healing focused druid, and a couple battle mediciners.
Great video young man!! I’ll get pathfinder game eventually 😊
I hope you do!
Great video!
Thanks so much!
I find that while for a lot of creatures the encounter builder is accurate, for others it's really not that true. Lower level creatures I think are a little over budgeted (i.e. they are weaker than their points suggest). I ran an encounter with 4 Kobold warriors, 2 Scouts and 1 dragon mage (very much over budget, 220 xp points) against a party of level 1 noobies, and they cleared the encounter reasonably easily.
The session opened with a fight against one Scout and 4 warriors and it wasn't even close, the players wiped the floor with the Kobolds in a matter of 2-3 rounds.
Whereas as you mention, spending all your points on a single creature makes for a SCARY encounter. Send a Harpy after a party of level 1 characters and see what happens :X
It definitely gets more accurate at higher levels, thats for sure, kobolds are famously a bit weak at their level in 2e. I haven't decided if this is an intentional meta joke or not, haha
On a more serious note, I had an encounter with 2 hyenas (total creature level 2) kick my level 2 4 person party's ass.
I had 2 people go down, one of them twice. It was balanced as Creature 2 vs Level 2. Heed the balance well. Pathfinder 2e is deadly.
Yes, especially at low levels when players have fewer tools (and are more likely to not know the ropes and use less than stellar tactics) encounters can definitely get away from you!
So what you're saying is this formula:
((CR * Party Members)/(Party Total XP * Creature Level)^2) + Creature Level - Number of Creatures = 3.14159
As long as it balances to Pi, the encounter is balanced.
Maybe... I flunked math. Haha
Thanks for the video! Quick question, how would you handle something like goons or minions. Something the players can just sorta cleave through, but can still be a bit of a threat if not taken care of.
Well, there are some monsters that fit this bill. You want to look for monsters that have really high attacks for their levels, but are a few levels below the party. You can then sort of build normally with threats that can hit, but are easily crit qnd have low HP.
Alternatively, you could use the monster creation rules (in the GMG but also released as a free .pdf) to create some creatures with extremely high attack, moderate to low damage, and extremely low AC & HP.
If all that seems like too much work, take the monsters you want to use, give them a very small amount of HP (or literally 1), leave all other stats and abilities the same. Use the budget as if they were their full stats but only award half the xp.
Or, you could take a much weaker creature, say 5 levels lower, and add only the attack bonus of the elite adjustment just to get it up to say a party -3 creature, and then build the encounter for a low or moderate budget.
Either of those should result in enemies that are dangerous but paper thin.
Finally, there will be hordes in Bestiary 3, like swarms of units. We'll see how they handle it, I imagine it will be something pretty creative.
@@CollectiveArcana Ooo, I forgot about monster creation. Thank you so much, this helps out a lot!
It works from level 3+. Level 1 characters facing a level 3 threat is deadly. I’ve been playing Edgewatch and hated the ridiculous encounter level.
Yeah. Low levels everything is cranked to 11! Those severe encounters are VERY severe for new adventurers. Good point!
@@CollectiveArcana Besides that, a 3rd level monster has 2 to 3 times the HP of a 1st level character! One or two attack are enough to bring a char down. One full round of attacks with a crit and half the party is down. I think you should address this issue. Cheers and keep up the good work!
This is interesting. How many encounters should I throw at my players in a dungeon?
It can vary. Generally fewer at lower levels and more at higher levels.
The reason for this is that PF2e assumes your players will get some chance to patch themselves up between most fights with small rests, that is recover focus points and most of their HP.
This can be harder to justify in a dungeon, so keep in mind if you aren't letting them rest, they will likely die if you try to throw too many, or multiple non-trivial encounters at them.
That said, as long as you're letting them rest up (recovering focus spells and most of their HP) before and after every moderate or larger encounter, many parties can potentially go a long time without a long rest. It will really come down to spell slots (and how frivolous the casters are with them) and other supplies. I would start at 2-3 low or moderate encounters, and then build up until you've seen how your party manages resources, again allowing them to generally have focus spells and about 80% hp going into any moderate or above encounter.
even it's moderate budget encounter, it could be very dangerous to the party sometimes. usually it happens when a GM or a scenario puts a lot of small weak creatures that fights more tactically at their favorable terrain situation. seriously, every single time my party encounter a group of kobolds, it turns out it is the most toughest encounter even it is a moderate encounter..... I really think pathfinder 2e needs different encounter budget formula for only kobolds....
Absolutely! Aa you said, lower levels are where multiple enemies are most impacted. Primarily because the players have fewer tools - specifically - martials will have fewer action economy/MAP hacks, and spellcasters will have fewer AOE effects. And if the GM is running the enemies tactically - every enemy taking advantage of flanking for example - its a recipe for disaster.
Shouldn't some encounters be extreme(not in the beginning) to teach the characters its ok to retreat so you can fight another day. I'm not talking about retreating just because the players are rolling really crappy and the monsters aren't, but after a round maybe 2 the characters realize they're outmatched and shouldn't stick around.
There's nothing wrong with that if you know your players will. But this isn't something you can always count on. Its something you should talk to your players about in a session 0. How dangerous do they want the world to be. If they ask for full danger, let them know that things will be too much for them and they need to be ready to lose the character or run away. If you've covered those bases, and your players are down for danger, then absolutely!
But I stand by my recommendation of using them sparingly at least until you know how your party will handle them, whether its using tactics and teamwork to carry through, or running away if needed.
@@CollectiveArcana I definitely agree it should be done sparingly.
Love how you constantly politely point out people should read the rules 🤣 its my biggest bug bear with how people engage with these games. I've seen GM's flunk 5e rules and run a bodged 3rd ed game. I've personally found how close but how far you can be from 2e rules by assuming its probably 1st ed pathfinder. Also you're spot on. Don't be flippant with encounter design. Its simple and easy so use them.
I think a lot of folks got turned off of 2e early on due to assumptions brought from other games, and it hurts their games and their view of the system, so I try to drop those reminders often! Haha
2:53 DANGER WILL ROBINSON, DANGER!!!
Sorry, it HAD to be done!
Hello, in a situation with solo party or an encounter with only one player, how it can been handled? Example. Encounter with a level one player and goblins that are - 1 encounter, can someone explain how to manage it? Thanks a lot
The encounter building rules tell you how to do this, just subtract a certain number of points from the encounter for each person less than 4.
Whats throwing you off is likely that level 1 can't afford any base creatures. You could either: start your player at level 2 or 3, or apply a weak template to a -1 level creature, thereby making it a level -2, and now its three total levels below 1, and worth 15 XP.
Your player will only be fighting single creatures for awhile. But this is how to handle it.
@@CollectiveArcana thanks!!!
All hail the algorithm. The Encounter Building Algorithm. Yes. That one. No other algorithms are being hailed. Nothing to see here. Move along.
Your algorithm snacks are greatly appreciated!
Also, with altering the level of monsters. Do you believe that looking at the level of the monster, looking at tables 2-1 through 2-11 in the GMG, and adjusting the stats based on the relevant category/level intersections would work if you're wanting to adjust the levels by 2 or more?
I havent tested it, but it SHOULD work, if you can correctly identify how the base creature was built & level it up accordingly. You might still run into occasional aberrations (no pun intended), but likely much less often than you would just stacking 5 elite adjustments would do!
Its allegedly the same rules they used to make the monsters in the first place, so barring whatever variables that aren't always well represented by a stat blocks math, there's no reason this shouldn't work.
@@CollectiveArcana Thank you for your feedback. I'll keep an eye out for those aberrant situations, but I feel as if what would potentially tip the scales out of balance the most would be special action
design.
BIG ALGORITHM COMMENT
yesssss feeed it!
😃
First!
+2 to your next roll!