MrTom1379 notice how whenever someone talks about women's issues men's issues are brought up and whenever someone talks about men characteristic problems women's characteristics are also brought up this stuff is purposeful
Because traditionalist masculinity is very much based on those things, the issue is, because we aren’t in the 1950s anymore, masculinity is non existent in its traditional forms as the views of stereotypical “manly men” (typically racist, homophobic and sexist views) are no longer accepted by society, so there’s no real modern form of masculinity, and the new, progressive and slightly more feminine masculinity is something that many men don’t understand or wish to be involved in, which is fine but these men will therefore struggle to define their own form of masculinity that is accepted in the 21st century.
I'm going to make a huge assumption here, feel free to comment if you disagree, but, most of the people who view toxic masculinity as a real thing are left leaning. And most who don't see it as a thing are centre to right wing. This is an observation I see a lot in conversation with people and I'm wondering how true it rings.
That would be because the left has traditionally seen social factors shaping individuals, whilst the right would believe that individuals have choice as to who they become.
Rings true to me. They do not believe in the power of the individual. To them there are groups, and your major trait is your group-identity. For example, I belong to the group of white people and men. Some groups are "privileged" and some are "oppressed". The people who belong to those "oppressed" groups (which often just means 'not in the majority') use it as an excuse to not take responsibility for themselves. Therefore they demand special group-laws so that the state can help them. Men > Women = Give women more state power. White > Black = Give black people more state power. "Cis" > "trans" = Give trans people more state power (except neither the left nor right realizes transsexualism is a medical condition and the "trans people" we see in media are identity-confused ideologically driven leftists) Also they disregard the idea that men and women are biologically different, with different motivations and desires. The most gender-equal society there is currently, in Scandinavia (where I am from) has "surprisingly" produced the most clearly divided career-choices ever. MOST Women WANT to work with people, MOST men want to work with things/systems. It has nothing to do with society pushing people either way, men and women are different. We should NEVER attempt to make people equal, or make groups equal. Forget groups. Look at the individual. Look at their talents and their competence. Respect their choices as their own.
Julian I Excellent. Very well expressed. Group identity becomes an issue when it's used for political purposes (i.e. unequal power in society) but people can still be divided into groups, as you have done so when you divide men and women. I think the idea of "equality" has suffered a lot of abuse. Equality is achieved when everyone is contributing to the common good. Individuals will always remain unequal in terms of wealth, power, ability, etc. That is only natural. I would rather define equality in terms of obligations, not rights.
I'm totally with you! A few days ago I celebrated Norways national day. It's a massive celebration where more or less everyone goes out in the streets in their finest clothes, walk in parades and car traffic is stopped. Suddenly you greet total strangers as your brother, everyone is suddenly NORWEGIAN first and foremost, even immigrants walk in the parades and are included. I thought long and hard about why I think this is a very positive thing. It certainly helps immigrants to be integrated, as nothing is as inclusive as excluding those who are not. Having an identity like this, solely based on geographical belonging, really seems to be good. We function like a massive tribe, but yet small enough to be transparent and trustworthy. It presents values and ideas, and all other nations values outside of it are perceived as alternatives. Groups presents alternatives. I don't believe in a one-state world with billions of individuals, either. I do believe in nations. We obviously need to be grouped, as we are social creatures, and geographical and familiar groups seem to produce desired distributions of diverse people (not in race though) so that they can contribute with their different abilities. What are your thoughts on nationality and states as group identities?
Ndi EKWERE Not EVERY heterosexual woman wants a man. I think that’s a serious over generalization. I know plenty of women who are completely capable without help from someone with a penis.
The V Word Hi ya, well of course I agree. That's not what I meant. We don't need a man but those who want men, do want a man that is useful and capable in whatever society or community they belong to.
The V Word also I don't think wanting a man makes any woman incapable. E.g. growing up in healthy home with a mum and dad is great bit if someone didn't it does not make them incable. You don't get a man and loose your brain, it meant to be a bonus. At least that's how I think of it.
I think we all need each other. There are issues for all people, men, women and those who don’t identify as men or women. I think we need to focus on supporting each other.
Men have always been disposable, but there has always been some sort of balance between the genders where everyone knew their place, and somewhat embraced it. Its all going tits up now.
Not Interested hahahaha!!! Tell that to all the divisions the British lost in WWI. They were indeed disposable. Like Bret Weinstein said: “most men have been losers during history”.
That is because whenever there’s a discussion about these topics and somebody frames the issue as an issue of toxic masculinity the men’s rights crowd cries “bloody murder” and try to shut the conversation.
Reality is men are fed mixed messages throughout childhood, on one hand they are told to provide and protect and to "man up" but on the other hand they are told this type of competitive based encouragement is "toxic masculinity", the very same women who say that this kind of masculinity is toxic are the same ones who call for a Man's help when they are in danger and expect men to be better then themselves to be a mate, this isn't equality, this is women degrading themselves and in there insecurities they blame the thing protecting them for being the cause, if we didn't have this culture of men protecting women then women would be in cages, that is the reality of this discussion that nobody wants to talk about, sending men mixed messages throughout childhood whilst also having a lack of a role model is exactly what is casusing these issues. We as men need to realize that the social discussion is so off course in the modern day that we need to stick to what we are good at and block out the bullshit sprewing out of women's mouths, as much as they say they want feminised men, they don't, they want and need you to protect them and always have done, i think the lack of war over the last 60 years is another huge factor as that is where women see the most priveledge, women don't die in wars, they stay at home and there lives are at extremely less risky, by the time we have the next war (which will come, peace will not last forever) we will have the issue of having a generation of men who are not capable or willing to fight, the men of our country need to come together and block out the dogma coming out of the feminist crowd and talk about the real issues here, it's also funny that this is the one instance where higher crime = problems with demographic group for these feminist types, it seems when they look at any other disadvantaged group in any other scenario they scream "victim" but with men they do not, it is hypocrisy at the highest level and it is best for male development to get away from it as fast as possible, if you decide to have kids and you are lucky enough to have a son, do not let them become weak, there whole self worth is based on what they can offer to others and stripping those aspects of masculinity away is only damaging. I'm not going to re-read what i said, this spewed out of me as a rant and will be posted as such, and remember, only in a society without war can this nonsense go on, Men, our time will come again when we are the ones required to fight and protect so remember this, you have a place in society, our culture is just way too privelleged to see it. Before anyone comments on my name being female, throw away account because the discussion has got so toxic i feel the need to hide my identity, take care people.
Like most of these debates, it becomes pointless. The statistics that are thrown out also become obsolete - "statistics are like bikinis.. they reveal a lot, but not everything "
It basically is just invalidating whatever you say past that point. Once you think that "you're a white cis male" is a valid point your so entrenched in your belief system that it doesnt matter what evidence is provided to the contrary. If you disagree this is to be expected because your a white male and on these points therefore automatically biased and misinformed, HOWEVER if you do agree you're a white male that has seen the light.
I am American and a millennial so maybe my viewpoint is different. Throughout all of these changes for women in society, I have not been negatively affected at all. Nothing has stopped me from participating in many "traditional" male behaviors: I play sports, I build stuff, bbq and try my hand at brewing beer. I am married but if I was single, I would feel comfotable approaching women and trying to date. I guess what I am trying to say is that through all these changes, I feel masculine. I feel respected, I feel supported. I feel wholly human. I do not feel women are trying to oppress me. I do not even know what that would look like or feel like.
Well, I have been very affected. I'm in certain ways very supposedly left wing, so I'm also against any bit of actual sexism, as far as I conclude it is.
The thing is, when you have resources like a house, car, decent money, etc, and women flock to you due to your resources, it gets very difficult to see women's hypocrisy in day to day life. Feminism has never been Egalitarian, and never will be. Rich and upper middle class men often make the ultimate feminists, because they don't feel women's dark side, until multiple divorce-grapes occur or she suddenly leaves you for the tennis instructor.
hheyyy a person can be a fan of an intellectual without being a cult member. Though I do see cult-like adoration of the man sometimes where people can't handle criticism of him. but I can. and there are many like me who can see valid criticism of Peterson, and yet he's still one of my favorite modern philosophers.
The audience was very biased in this discussion. The men on the right mentioned many factual and real problems men face in today's world but the audience was very silent. When the gay guy on the left tried to make a point about the gender pay gap despite the fact that this theory has already been debunked many times, the audience applauded in delight.
The show should be seen for what it is: a set-up. Every BBC show of this kind is only allowed to get the women good- men-bad message across, or the continued lie about the "wage gap".
I agree it's very suspicious how these big news corporations like the BBC seem to always be pushing the opinions and ideologies of the left recently. Makes you question the reason behind this agenda...
+ Ard Jerems So, what's the agenda behind the agenda? Or in other words, the real agenda (in your opinion)? I have my theories, like most aware, free-thinking people - although it's difficult to flesh them out as I'm not privy to what is said and done in the corridors of power - but I'd like to hear yours, too.
Thank you and I believe the real agenda is a New World Order (NWO), for this to be established loads of mini agenda's must be met and one of these agenda's is the push of cultural Marxism and the left. Just look at society everything is slowly being turned upside down not by coincidence, by design...
Probably because this just shows how little men have actually been forced to dissect their own gender identity like women have so as a result at this point they only know how to discuss masculinity through referencing relationships to other people and power structures rather than through the complex emotional relationship with themselves and their bodies that masculinity actually is. Hence the crisis.
When the titanic was sinking - the shout was women and children first. Women have, for centuries, been placed on a pedestal, and for good reasons. However, that pedestal is now being used to beat us.
What are the good reasons for allowing a woman onto a boat but not a man :/ from an evolutionary perspective I suppose one man can impregnate multiple women but one woman can only be pregnant for 9months at a time so this may be where the tendency developed. However, from a moral perspective, men are just as deserving of life as women
Noor TM. Biologically I can't argue with that. I just feel men have a natural tendency to support and protect women. Women, by and large, have the same desire. After all, they are wives and mothers. However, although I gave the Titanic example, there is no requirement in maritime law.
I am a gay man and those people, talking about toxin masculinity are talking rubbish. We need more masculinity in society, responsible men who can educate their children and help them become responsible individuals. Also the young lady who is 20, who claims to have suffered sexual arrassment on a daily basis, I say in your dream lady.
Well I AM and a very good one, sweetheart and very proud. You are probably like that demon in the video, that claims to be sexual arrassed every time she walks a funeral home.
And what's wrong with wanting to be like James Bond? He's strong, handsome, charming, witty and does very well with the women. All men should aspire to be like him. (not the killing people part, of course)
@@Achilles94627 Eh...have you read the books? Its like the gentlemen said the actual character was a depressed alcoholic who only slept with married women lol. Not exactly something to aspire to but hes still cool.
Why is he always letting the people who align with his political views speak first, interrupt ( and tell them to keep talking), and get their point through while interrupting the opposite side!?
I used to occupy shit jobs. Never ever saw a feminist complaining to get my shit job with my shit pay check that leave you with a shit health at the end of the day.
lol I love how women act like they don't sexual harass men. You know how many times women have walked up to me and just grabbed my biceps and said, "you must work out a lot huh" I laugh it off and don't get mad about it but could you imagine going up to a girl and doing that? smh
WORK HARD STAY HUMBLE. Men grab (squeeze, playfully hit, etc) my arm all the time. It's not sexual at all (unless he does all that while telling me he wants to do sexual things to me). Now if a man did all that to my butt or boobs I would switch.
For real. It's not just arms either. I can't tell you the amount of times I've had my chest rubbed as a lady walked by or my ass grabbed or hit on. Ladies are not bashful about that stuff
Same here it makes me really angry listening to these no marks,the bbc are so corrupt,this Scottish twat is part of the plot. Makes me want to smash my computer. Grrr
when i first heard the term, "toxic masculinity" it offended me b/c any sane person can see this war on masculinity and men, and I have brothers who I don't want to grow up to be pansies. But then I spoke to a feminist on the matter and she explained to me that masculinity in itself isn't toxic, but there is a form or idea of it that can be toxic to men themselves and to those in his life. Such as the idea that men should never show their emotions or are never allowed to be week and must always dominate others and ignore boundaries. Of course, feminists go too far with this idea and view all masculinity as bad. We need masculinity! Masculine energy channeled in the right direction results in hard work, healthy competition, being an emotional rock (but not b/c he can't deal with his emotions but b/c he can), being a protector and provider, however channeled in a bad direction results in insecurity, being a bully, being an emotional leach, and even to things such as murder, school shootings, rape, and suicide. Social studies have found that there is a direct co-relation btwn distant or absent fathers for boys and insecure, stunted men. And we need the good form of masculinity for almost every aspect of society, including defending against the bad form of masculinity such as ISIS. Not to put everything off on men, there are too good and bad, healthy and unhealthy forms of females as well, but that's not what this video is about.
Notice how the men on the left always get to make their points at length without interrupted but when the men on the right make counter-points or bring up different arguments, they get interrupted by the men on the left and the men on the left get additional speaking time. Also the host seemed to steer the men on the right a hell of a lot while letting the men on the left rant uninterrupted.
how ignorant do you have to be to believe in something without doing any research or possessing any data whatsoever. That rizzle kicks guy is the worst
the host is always bad and biased but this was so frustrating, just emotional people shouting over the people with facts and the host letting it happen, and whenever an actual discussion on the topic arises feminism an conflation angrily butts in....
marccas10 yep I think you've nailed it there, I think my main issue is that he always tries to talk down the people that present factual information in favour of those that might have their feelings hurt, at least the conversation got better later in the show haha
Much of masculinity is responsibility and accountability. When everything is someone else's fault, it's quite clear masculinity is under threat. On a physical level masculinity is in crisis, with men around the world having lower testosterone than previous generations. The question isn't "is masculinity in crisis," the question is in how many ways is it in crisis?
7:36 This is another problem... "Patriarchy, for me.." When you define something so subjectively how do you ever expect anyone to know what the hell you are talking about, or for people to come to a consensus... I feel like language and how people interpret things is so self-centered sometimes. Actual defintion: a system of society or government in which the father or eldest male is head of the family and descent is traced through the male line. He never even mentions the role of men in the idea of patriarchy... smh
Really poor moderation too... every time an interesting point came up (usually the Comedian flannel shirt guy), it was doused out and funnelled back into useless noise. The guy on the far left with the hideous orange hearts shirt kept banging on about diversity and women even when the topic was men under-performing in schools, or men not having good role models, or male suicide rates, or the value of stoicism... He just couldn't have it not be about him, so kept interrupting with tone-deaf, bland feminist catchphrases.
Josh Kirby My point is that boys need male role models who also allow boys to be boys. There is no escaping from the fact that boys and girls differ physiologically and psychologically and as such our boys and I mean black and white working class boys in particular are being damaged by an education system that sees healthy masculine traits such as competitiveness and a will to be the best as some how "Toxic"
Amru how do you identify ... Well i was born a man but now i dont ide- Okay , thankyou no need to tell men how to be men then. 'Patriarchy for me is...' No, it either is or it isn't we cannot all walk around with our own definitions of the most central parts of our society and expect everyone to bend to them when the facts do not hold up.
I made a cup of tea and thought great some of the issues ,as a 46 year old man with 5 children, 4 of them boys, are going to be thrashed out. Alas , the best part of an hour was used up with, " but what about the women?" Is masculinity in crisis? ........ Yes am afraid it still is. Nothing was accomplished here.
James Heyworth I worry for my son. I might lose it if a teacher says my son is suffering from toxic masculinity or he is too "hyper" (not acting like a little girl)
Mushu's Social Madnesss , I understand your worries Mushu, it's like the way they are labelling boys with ADHD in a school environment where there is no losers. In other words there is no competitive exercise to ware-out our young boys. It is a bad analogy, but most young boy are like dogs, if they are a little unruly, or playing up a bit, they need exercise. They do not need drugs or counselling to slow them down, or to emasculate, or feminise ,or just to have them better controlled ....... Like the girls. Boys in school need male role figures. Boys in school need competitive exercise. Boys in school need competition in other areas too, boys need to know where they stand in life. This is a bit controversial, but I think boys and girls should be separated at school, as it used to be. Mixed schools have ONLY benefited girls.
Jaybee, Yes 5 children 4 of which I am the father, my oldest ( I call them all mine) is at university, and is from a former partner of my missus. I know, I know, I was too stupid to see a red flag, even though it was slapping me in the face. But that is not why I'm replying to you. The biggest mistake I've made, and I've made a few, like if I stayed single I would have payed off my first house now.... There is more..... But I do love my partner ( not married) and all my kids. We are now on OUR second house, and I'm mortgaged until I'm dead. But the biggest mistake is having a vasectomy. Why? Because that was my last and only power I believe I had. She no longer looks at me the same. I'm broken now( her words, always said in jest) and I did this FOR her. What do I mean by the only power? If we split up ( and it is looking more and more likely as time goes on) she would have everything ,the house ,the kids, income. The only thing I had was the threat that I could have children with other women, and in her head may love them more than the ones we have now. That threat as gone now....... And now I feel useless. Moral of this ramble...... Never have a vasectomy, ever. Women have sooo many more forms of birth control than men. For me it was an excuse to go bareback anytime I wanted...... But it soon dried up, the sex that is. Vasectomies will make you feel less masculine. Never do it.
I'm sorry you're a part of his cult. Ask Jordan if homosexuals should exist or if they should adopt and his brain glitches out because he cannot conflate his vehement "love" of free speech and his retrograde christian "values" which paint men and women as different species. He's a charlatan, but keep praising him as GOD, by all means.
Voeris clearly u haven't watch an unedited video of him. Go drag yourself out of the mob mentality maybe even educate yourself and start to think as an individual. If not keep watching buzz feed, CNN, BBC and all the other mainstream propaganda news machines
Umm.... My comment is making reference to TWO unedited videos of him. You're one to talk of "mob mentality" lol... The way you speak of him clearly shows cult of personality behavior. (Hey I am sometimes guilty of this too, with Yoko Taro, but he's a game designer so...) I hate Buzz Feed, I don't feed off of mainstream media. Try harder. Sorry I don't fit into your small world-view. (which is expected of Jordan Peterson fans, I mean for them to be amazed by his words, you kind of need to have a small world view)
Voeris your just another zombie lefty worried when people step off your plantation and think for themselves. Every single person who has a different idea to the main stream gets lambasted with attacks and smears on their character but don’t worry keep your eyes closed..... block your ears and keep swallowing up all your PC bullshit.
+Sonai Jesus Christ... Either you're a terrible troll, or you are completely lost. Tell me, where on the doll did the lefty/SJW touch you!?!?! You're just another edgyboi like your daddy Jordan Peterson lol. You do know he took a canadian law looking to mitigate discrimination against transexual people TWISTED IT, LIED about it and WAILED like a baby to attract all the poor lost souls like you still clinging so strongly to gender roles, don't you?
Signs not to take someone serious when arguing with: - nose ring - extremely colorful attire - random bandana - switching argument to begin defensive - attacks men
Somebody who was born in the Middle East, and who would likely be killed for being gay, and be unable to present themselves as a Drag Queen, and would in no way have the ability to use they/them pronouns, and has moved to the UK, and been granted the rights and freedoms to express themselves as they see fit, has the utter, unbelievable cheek to call the white people of the nation who help uphold those freedoms wicked, and privileged, and for essentially making life difficult for minorities is unbelievable. The fact that they won't even seem to criticise the Middle East - one of the most brutally misogynistic regions on Earth, for their toxic anything, is blood boiling.
Lion yeah you’re high, it’s nothing to do with socials or schools it’s to do with dumb ideas being allowed to surface and the critique of those ideas being not allowed as it’s “offensive” etc Btw both sides here are absolute shit
The conversation devolved pretty quickly in this discussion. From my understanding (and from the brief bit of clarification you get early on from the first speaker), toxic masculinity is used to refer to aspects of stereotypically masculine traits that can cause harm to oneself and/or others. Examples of such traits are: Dealing with situations via violence (leading to much higher levels of violent crime among men - although, Testosterone and other biochemistry/neuroanatomy may play a part in that), not confronting one's emotions (which can lead to depression or anger outbursts), Dominance (leading to feelings of inadequacy when not achieved), womanising (possibly a side-effect of the dominance stereotype) etc. I think that these are the 'toxic' parts of masculinity that people talk about. There are some great aspects of 'masculinity' which should not be forgotten, and also some toxic parts of 'femininity' (the over-emphasis on beauty for example) that can lead to damage, too. I think the important thing is that people are not blaming men/women for these attributes, just pointing out the effects of them, and asking us to look at them sceptically and possibly change our outlook on how we conduct ourselves as a society.
It was annoying when they were more focused on getting their word in rather than realizing that the same issues were plaguing "both sides". But they were so self-driven by their ego they couldn't be self-aware.
On a vacation to London years ago, a young lady pinched my bottom. I didn't care about it and did not turn it into a problem (meaning complain about sexual harassment). I was pleased that a lady had done that and required no effort for me. I love London.
Semantics are important. It’s annoying when toxic-masculinity is femsplained as to why it’s use justified instead of using misandry or internalised misandry. It always leads back to patriarchy and thus completely ignores women’s role in established gender norms. Feminists seem to care more about using and explaining the term rather than actually making any progress for men.
You know who carried you for 9 months and then gave birth to you and all those other men? I'm serious, because you seem to have forgotten. We're all in this together, stop trying to divide us up. Also search for "inventions by women". I've worked with men and women and there's no difference in ability or output.
By you? Your very lack of any sense of person achievement radiates through your comment. Nothing wrong with that - I can't say I've any plans to cure cancer - but I don't hide behind those who do and attack women for not being men.
I suggest you start work on that 'artificial womb' because the chance of any consensual impregnation of a human female on your part presumably drops exponentially when you violate the terms of any active restraining orders and initiate verbal contact. Perhaps you can sculpt one from concrete and after your inevitable 'episode' it will go on display in an outsider art exhibit ironically providing you with the recognition and status you craved in your life pre-incarceration, thereby adding to the piece's artistic merit.
My father and now my brother have run electric companies for over fifty years. They have several times tried to have women work for them but the women just cannot keep up physically. Its not that they are dumb or not wanting to work but physically just cannot do the job. It is unfortunate but we are just products of evolution. Men evolved physically, mentally and emotionally to fill role in society. Women evolved to fill other roles. Sorry sjws but evolution doesn't respect your "feelings" on the matter. I believe 100% in equality of opportunity where feminism and other social justice types have failed is in trying to deny basic biology. Both men and women have important roles to fulfill in our society and you are doing a disservice to us all in trying to force an "equality of outcome". Personally I love that men and women are different. There are things i get from other men (and from being a man). As there are things I get from women. I'm not surprised to hear that testosterone levels are falling in the west. I cannot imagine how attacking men and masculinity wouldn't effect us. I remember being young and trying to live the sjw version of a man. What it led to for me was suicide attempts and drug addiction. In my mid 20"s I "manned" up, cleaned up, no more suicide attempts and I started getting laid on a regular basis.. Funny how that is.
the very fact that they took the question "is masculinity in crisis?" and spend most of what i saw talking about feminine issues. this confirms to me that feminists are so self centered there is no point in debating them.
The black kid at the end makes a valid point on masculinity. The fact that males may not like to talk emotionally about there problems to one another. Afraid to be vulnerable, is seen as weakness in the masculine world. It doesn't surprise me that suicide is high.
When did a man wanting to protect his wife or girlfriend or partner become a bad thing? And protecting a man protecting a woman doesn't necessarily mean on a physical level, but on an emotional one as well. It's like my father has previously said, you hurt my wife's feelings then you hurt me as well. While I can't speak for all women I think you'll be hard pressed to find a woman who wouldn't want a partner that was willing to fight for them. And believe, me it's not as if there aren't women who wouldn't be willing to fight for their man as well. It's not a one way street in the modern western world. Both sexes want someone who is going to be there for them no matter what.
i am not espousing feminist talking points i am just answerthe question i rather have my eye digged with a spoon than be feminist thank you not that weak of human being
I was agreeing with you, and adding the point that ethnic minorities espousing feminist talking points is just another way to attack whites, particularly white men.
that is so true and i find it weird as tohow bad it has become it seem like we have gone back to 1930s with better technology. and also in democratic country where the minorities have more say that major is even more crazy
So I thought this big Q was supposed to be about about men but the first half seemed to be only about women's issues. Don't get me wrong, both sexes have there problems but this was supposed to be a platform to discuss men's issues!
It's what happens when the people you get to oppose the notion have no knowledge, insight or ideas on the topic so they have to fall back onto what they know: Playing the victim and dodging the questions asked. Like seriously, how did those 2 young "men" in particular get invited on, especially as representatives. They provided nothing to the discussion and only served to waste time and spout catchphrases they think sound smart.
I imagined during the middle of this debate that Christopher Hitchens just walks out, everybody shuts the fucks up, he quietly scans the audience with a whiskey in one hand and a cigarette in the other and then drops a Hitch Slap then leaves. God, i miss that man so much. Unapologetic masculine and intelligent.
Ugh the comments are just as cringey as I thought. I keep hearing about the lack of “intelligence” but no actual counterpoints or citations. But this moderator is kinda bad at his job too. Idk like even if I was conservative leaning I would still find his moderator too interruptive and poor timing
The big questions is such a good show!! They truly openly discuss very interesting topics - we wouldn't see that sort of show on american tv anytime soon
Men ARE strong! Men DO protect! Men DO govern! These are inherent, biologically predetermined feature of maleness. We are not all equal, we can never be! However we can be equally treated under the law!! Women select men based on biological unconscious predisposition. If they can't respect or in some cases fear you, they can't love you or be loyal to you.
I'm sorry but since I was born, I felt like I should treat every women like a piece of glass that can be shattered if I don't behave well. I didn't felt this way about men. And I'm fed up with it, especially that women that I know are not fragile. In this day and age women, in the eyes of the government are treated equally to men, even privilege in some case. And as for the guy that said that 11% of director are women, What's wrong with that? Don't you think it's about different interest between men and women? Men and Women have different interest, different behavior and personalities. That's why you have a lot of Women directed towards cares and social, is there an injustice that there is more Nurse women than men ? no... It's just how it is. Look at stem fields, they do a lot of programs to get girl into science, same for coding., They are privilege whit those programs.But it don't work much... why? Because difference of interest, and that's fine...
JocTer exactly. I work at an elementary school. And have worked at many of them during my career. (A lot of different ones when I did summer school.). Out of about 20-30 teachers at each building there have been maybe 1 or 2 that are male. That's it. Yet I don't see feminists fighting for more men to teach k-5. Most men just don't want to. And that's ok.
Some of these traits associated with masculinity like this having to "man up", could simply be rephrased to "the need to be strong", which is not necessarily bad advice but should of course not exclusively apply to men, but for all humans, because if a person doesnt learn how to deal with problems it will have a negative on their lives and make them have to depend on others. The reason, I believe, that this "being strong" is/was mostly associated with masculinity is, because, in the recent past, men were considered to be the provider and protector of the family and therefore said values were more important for men. Long story short: not all values associated with masculinity are bad, but should not be limited to men, but rather any person who wants to be independant and succeed in life, also rape is bad. And please excuse my somewhat bad english.
Self harming is primarily a female thing so I have read. I wonder would this kid have the balls to call that toxic femininity since "behaviour that harms oneself and others" is gendered toxicity according to him? Well when men do it anyway...
3/4 of all suicides in Britain is done by males between the ages of 15 to 40. The expectations on males causes them so much grief, so they end up killing themselves. THAT is toxic masculinity.
Qq Perfect Your reasoning is definitely part of why men/boys kill themselves, but its also because of douche bags who call them "toxic males" in the first place, simply for being themselves rather than accept them as they are. Again I will reiterate the point I was trying to make, since you appear to have missed it... Is it "toxic femininity" when women attempt suicide then, since women attempt suicide more often than men and because you people who use terms like "toxic masculinity" believe in equality? Also wouldn't it be more accurate rather than victim blaming, to target the actual perpetrators who drive these men to commit suicide?? You know, like bullies that attempt to control them via shaming language such as "toxic masculinity"??? And by the way, go fuck yourself!
I'm not interested in your links or legitimizing your false notions of bullshit. But I did notice your failed to answer my question... Is it toxic femininity when women do it?
when that guy says 'toxic femininity' i knew there was no longer any point in this discussion and nothing said would sink into this man at all. He literally can't have a conversation with men, about men talking about men's issues and what men do to each other, without somehow finding some way to blame women, whom have NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.
Half way through this debate and almost all of it so far has been concerning problems with women and the existence of the patriarchy. Very thorough debate so far...
I'm a woman and I can honestly say that 25% of the month, I am not able to perform as well as the rest of the month because of my hormones. Should I be paid as much as a man because my tummy hurts and I can't work? HECK NO! Can I lift up the same heavy loads as my fellow men? NO. Should I also get paid while I got on maternity leave?! We cannot reach equality, because WE ARE DIFFERENT. I'd like to add that I enjoy playing the cis-woman role within a my patriarchal couple... am I oppressing other women? The 3rd wave feminism, in its effort to be inclusive and anti-oppressive, is actually doing 'levelling down' to accomodate a small minority of trans/non-binary/gender fluid people, and many have issues with using words such as 'women', 'gyne-' but do not mind saying 'men' and 'masculinity'... they'll even use the word 'feminist' despite it being (according to their own requirements) oppressive... oh but because men are on top, we'd be allowed to slash them?!! Bunch of confused people who were given too many participation prizes.
28:20 “I’ve experienced multiple accounts of sexual harassment” lmao.. sure you have... Also why do all these feminists have such god awful eyebrows?..
Attacking how someone looks is low regardless of wether they are a feminist or not. As a woman she probably has experienced sexual harassment- it’s very common.
He was very close to the truth. I believe he claimed that money was the only factor determining a man's sexual market value. There are a few other things but mostly he's right about hypergamy
The 20 year old woman who spoke is a great example of inequality led on by feminism. In this debate, everyone was talking over everyone and interrupting everyone, but when it happens to her, she plays the woman card. That makes me doubt the daily experiences she speaks of.
If masculinity is in crisis,it may have something to do with the fact that men,with no instruction nor support, are supposed magically to be experts at earning,leading,initiating,work,sex,dating,approaching women,conversation,being stable,expressing emotion in the right way(too much=cissy,too little=closed off),troubleshooting everything,self-defence,maintaining status,being wealthy,being a rock,loving rejection and failure to show strength,competing against men for women's attention.....all the while being ridiculed by radfems,accused of perversions constantly in msm,mocked for lack of confidence,excoriated if seen as sexually confident and able to attract women,ridiculed for weakness,aspersed for not showing approved feelings only,expected to be sexually confident whilst being told you are a potential creep if nervous or a caveman if you are not....with few role models to admire.Please feel free to add more ridiculous expectations..I may have overlooked one.I also love the idea that some women don't enjoy enormous sexual power.The singer Lana del Ray had a song called'F...ed my way to the top 'and admitted she used her sexual charm to attempt to better herself. Total respect to her for honesty!!Oh no,a woman has just said I'm privileged to be a white cis male.Thank you for that,you are raising my consciousness.Why do feminists insist they have been facing lots of sexual assault all the time,without being required to define exactly what they mean?I am so fed up with men being accused of vague crimes that are never defined properly.I thought sexual assault meant someone pinned you down or groped you.Does this feminist woman get groped multiple times a day?Does a shop assistant grope her as she pays?Does her neighbour wish her good morning as he gropes her?Does the mailman stick his hand through her letterbox for a quick grope?When she asks for stamps at the post office,is she told 'That'll be £2.50 and a grope please.'?
So there's one thing I have been a female for a very long time (because I am a female born a female). Us women have dark disgusting sides. I didn't like the fact that one of the contestants stated that it is the patriarchy that makes you believe women are bad. No some women just need help and so do men. That takes away accountability from those women who are evil.
being a man isn't about dressing a certain way or talking in a certain way. it's about being who i am. as long as there are men around there will always be masculinity too.
I'm a 17-year-old woman, and when I was 13 years old, I killed my family's pit-bull puppy. His name was Poppy. I killed him by tying a rope to his collar and than putting in over a large branch on a tree which had a hunting post on it. I got up onto the hunting post, grabbed a hold of the rope, and then began pulling the rope down. As I pulled the rope down, Poppy was lifted up in the air. My hands were shaking while i did the deed; and I watched as his body shacked ferociously until, finally, I heard his neck snap. I then got down from the hunting post, untied the rope from his collar, put his leash on his collar, and grabbed a hold of the leash while dragging him through the woods. I put his body underneath some bushes. I left the body there for about a month and then went back to the site, and all that was left was bones (it was summer). I kept going back to the spot almost everyday, and then I took his canine teeth from his skull and put them in my room. Not too long after I did this, I took his head and put it on a tree branch. I then brought my sister into the wood, showed her the head, and told her it was a coyote's head.
Reading the comments about people not believing this girl was harassed almost every day, I have now reached that part of the video. It has become quite clear to me, that I agree. As one comment or wrote, “not without copious amounts of alcohol”
Notice how any debate on men’s issues gets quickly swung back to women’s issues .
MrTom1379 they take the worst issues that a very tiny minority of men in the west have an make out like that’s how the majority are
It’s a joke !!!
the victim' card that feminist like to play. the guy with the grey beard on the right states the fact.
MrTom1379 notice how whenever someone talks about women's issues men's issues are brought up and whenever someone talks about men characteristic problems women's characteristics are also brought up this stuff is purposeful
It's like a pendulum.
So true!!
I just wanted to hear a talk about masculinity, and everyone on the left is talking about racism, homophobia, and feminism.
Almost as if they are interlinked
Yeah, exactly my thoughts
Because traditionalist masculinity is very much based on those things, the issue is, because we aren’t in the 1950s anymore, masculinity is non existent in its traditional forms as the views of stereotypical “manly men” (typically racist, homophobic and sexist views) are no longer accepted by society, so there’s no real modern form of masculinity, and the new, progressive and slightly more feminine masculinity is something that many men don’t understand or wish to be involved in, which is fine but these men will therefore struggle to define their own form of masculinity that is accepted in the 21st century.
Is Intelligence in Crisis?
Quinn Rafferty
Clearly, it is.
Always
Yes
YES!!!!!!
Very well said !
I'm going to make a huge assumption here, feel free to comment if you disagree, but, most of the people who view toxic masculinity as a real thing are left leaning. And most who don't see it as a thing are centre to right wing.
This is an observation I see a lot in conversation with people and I'm wondering how true it rings.
That would be because the left has traditionally seen social factors shaping individuals, whilst the right would believe that individuals have choice as to who they become.
"Toxic masculinity" is a far left buzz phrase.
Rings true to me. They do not believe in the power of the individual. To them there are groups, and your major trait is your group-identity. For example, I belong to the group of white people and men. Some groups are "privileged" and some are "oppressed". The people who belong to those "oppressed" groups (which often just means 'not in the majority') use it as an excuse to not take responsibility for themselves. Therefore they demand special group-laws so that the state can help them.
Men > Women = Give women more state power.
White > Black = Give black people more state power.
"Cis" > "trans" = Give trans people more state power (except neither the left nor right realizes transsexualism is a medical condition and the "trans people" we see in media are identity-confused ideologically driven leftists)
Also they disregard the idea that men and women are biologically different, with different motivations and desires. The most gender-equal society there is currently, in Scandinavia (where I am from) has "surprisingly" produced the most clearly divided career-choices ever. MOST Women WANT to work with people, MOST men want to work with things/systems. It has nothing to do with society pushing people either way, men and women are different.
We should NEVER attempt to make people equal, or make groups equal. Forget groups. Look at the individual. Look at their talents and their competence. Respect their choices as their own.
Julian I Excellent. Very well expressed. Group identity becomes an issue when it's used for political purposes (i.e. unequal power in society) but people can still be divided into groups, as you have done so when you divide men and women. I think the idea of "equality" has suffered a lot of abuse. Equality is achieved when everyone is contributing to the common good. Individuals will always remain unequal in terms of wealth, power, ability, etc. That is only natural. I would rather define equality in terms of obligations, not rights.
I'm totally with you! A few days ago I celebrated Norways national day. It's a massive celebration where more or less everyone goes out in the streets in their finest clothes, walk in parades and car traffic is stopped. Suddenly you greet total strangers as your brother, everyone is suddenly NORWEGIAN first and foremost, even immigrants walk in the parades and are included. I thought long and hard about why I think this is a very positive thing. It certainly helps immigrants to be integrated, as nothing is as inclusive as excluding those who are not. Having an identity like this, solely based on geographical belonging, really seems to be good. We function like a massive tribe, but yet small enough to be transparent and trustworthy. It presents values and ideas, and all other nations values outside of it are perceived as alternatives. Groups presents alternatives. I don't believe in a one-state world with billions of individuals, either. I do believe in nations.
We obviously need to be grouped, as we are social creatures, and geographical and familiar groups seem to produce desired distributions of diverse people (not in race though) so that they can contribute with their different abilities.
What are your thoughts on nationality and states as group identities?
I want men watching this to know they are wanted and still regarded. Every heterosexual woman wants a useful and capable man in society.
Ndi EKWERE problem is there's no masculinity without women it's inevitable
Ndi EKWERE Not EVERY heterosexual woman wants a man. I think that’s a serious over generalization. I know plenty of women who are completely capable without help from someone with a penis.
The V Word Hi ya, well of course I agree. That's not what I meant. We don't need a man but those who want men, do want a man that is useful and capable in whatever society or community they belong to.
The V Word also I don't think wanting a man makes any woman incapable. E.g. growing up in healthy home with a mum and dad is great bit if someone didn't it does not make them incable. You don't get a man and loose your brain, it meant to be a bonus. At least that's how I think of it.
I think we all need each other. There are issues for all people, men, women and those who don’t identify as men or women. I think we need to focus on supporting each other.
Let‘s talk about masculinity. First 2 topics: rape and Feminism. Very telling how males are viewed on society.
no wonder so many young men commit suicide, we're seen as disposable in this society and our issues aren't taken seriously
Men have always been disposable, but there has always been some sort of balance between the genders where everyone knew their place, and somewhat embraced it. Its all going tits up now.
Not Interested hahahaha!!! Tell that to all the divisions the British lost in WWI. They were indeed disposable. Like Bret Weinstein said: “most men have been losers during history”.
That's cause most women want to play the victim and are feminists... unfortunately.
That is because whenever there’s a discussion about these topics and somebody frames the issue as an issue of toxic masculinity the men’s rights crowd cries “bloody murder” and try to shut the conversation.
This debate has missed its mission. talking about masculinity but all i here is women women women. I came here to hear about masculinity.
Ndi EKWERE the masculine men are under attack ny the global metropolitan elites! They want us to be ashamed to be heterosexual males, end of days.
DJ FX absolutely!
yup. and my balls hurt when i think about the situation in the west
Ndi EKWERE lol yes
Reality is men are fed mixed messages throughout childhood, on one hand they are told
to provide and protect and to "man up" but on the other hand they are told this type
of competitive based encouragement is "toxic masculinity", the very same women who
say that this kind of masculinity is toxic are the same ones who call for a Man's
help when they are in danger and expect men to be better then themselves to be a mate,
this isn't equality, this is women degrading themselves and in there insecurities they
blame the thing protecting them for being the cause, if we didn't have this culture of
men protecting women then women would be in cages, that is the reality of this discussion
that nobody wants to talk about, sending men mixed messages throughout childhood
whilst also having a lack of a role model is exactly what is casusing these issues.
We as men need to realize that the social discussion is so off course in the modern day
that we need to stick to what we are good at and block out the bullshit sprewing out of
women's mouths, as much as they say they want feminised men, they don't, they want
and need you to protect them and always have done, i think the lack of war over the last 60
years is another huge factor as that is where women see the most priveledge, women
don't die in wars, they stay at home and there lives are at extremely less risky, by the
time we have the next war (which will come, peace will not last forever) we will have the
issue of having a generation of men who are not capable or willing to fight, the men
of our country need to come together and block out the dogma coming out of the feminist
crowd and talk about the real issues here, it's also funny that this is the one instance
where higher crime = problems with demographic group for these feminist types, it seems
when they look at any other disadvantaged group in any other scenario they scream "victim"
but with men they do not, it is hypocrisy at the highest level and it is best for male
development to get away from it as fast as possible, if you decide to have kids and
you are lucky enough to have a son, do not let them become weak, there whole self worth
is based on what they can offer to others and stripping those aspects of masculinity away
is only damaging.
I'm not going to re-read what i said, this spewed out of me as a rant and will be posted as
such, and remember, only in a society without war can this nonsense go on, Men, our time
will come again when we are the ones required to fight and protect so remember this, you
have a place in society, our culture is just way too privelleged to see it.
Before anyone comments on my name being female, throw away account because the discussion has got so toxic i feel the need to hide my identity, take care people.
Ok, I'm losing brain cells watching this ... intelligence is in crisis
Like most of these debates, it becomes pointless. The statistics that are thrown out also become obsolete - "statistics are like bikinis.. they reveal a lot, but not everything "
its a good one Dave!
24Pdaddy Exactly. No one cares about intelligence.
Its all about left vs right or liberals vs conservatives.
Pointless really...
That's just what happens when you watch the BBC
no wonder russia wants to hbomb us lol
"you're a white cis male". - throws phone off wall.
It basically is just invalidating whatever you say past that point.
Once you think that "you're a white cis male" is a valid point your so entrenched in your belief system that it doesnt matter what evidence is provided to the contrary.
If you disagree this is to be expected because your a white male and on these points therefore automatically biased and misinformed, HOWEVER if you do agree you're a white male that has seen the light.
I am American and a millennial so maybe my viewpoint is different. Throughout all of these changes for women in society, I have not been negatively affected at all. Nothing has stopped me from participating in many "traditional" male behaviors: I play sports, I build stuff, bbq and try my hand at brewing beer. I am married but if I was single, I would feel comfotable approaching women and trying to date.
I guess what I am trying to say is that through all these changes, I feel masculine. I feel respected, I feel supported. I feel wholly human. I do not feel women are trying to oppress me. I do not even know what that would look like or feel like.
Well, I have been very affected. I'm in certain ways very supposedly left wing, so I'm also against any bit of actual sexism, as far as I conclude it is.
simp
The thing is, when you have resources like a house, car, decent money, etc, and women flock to you due to your resources, it gets very difficult to see women's hypocrisy in day to day life. Feminism has never been Egalitarian, and never will be. Rich and upper middle class men often make the ultimate feminists, because they don't feel women's dark side, until multiple divorce-grapes occur or she suddenly leaves you for the tennis instructor.
Jordan Peterson would have wrapped this up in 5 mins flat!
karen Shepprd yep he would have.
hheyyy a person can be a fan of an intellectual without being a cult member. Though I do see cult-like adoration of the man sometimes where people can't handle criticism of him. but I can. and there are many like me who can see valid criticism of Peterson, and yet he's still one of my favorite modern philosophers.
haha Yes I'm in the lobster camp
karen Shepprd
That's why Jordan Peterson was NOT invited.
er lo
Nothing wrong with following the irrefutable truth.
The audience was very biased in this discussion. The men on the right mentioned many factual and real problems men face in today's world but the audience was very silent. When the gay guy on the left tried to make a point about the gender pay gap despite the fact that this theory has already been debunked many times, the audience applauded in delight.
The show should be seen for what it is: a set-up. Every BBC show of this kind is only allowed to get the women good- men-bad message across, or the continued lie about the "wage gap".
I agree it's very suspicious how these big news corporations like the BBC seem to always be pushing the opinions and ideologies of the left recently. Makes you question the reason behind this agenda...
+ Ard Jerems
So, what's the agenda behind the agenda? Or in other words, the real agenda (in your opinion)? I have my theories, like most aware, free-thinking people - although it's difficult to flesh them out as I'm not privy to what is said and done in the corridors of power - but I'd like to hear yours, too.
Thank you and I believe the real agenda is a New World Order (NWO), for this to be established loads of mini agenda's must be met and one of these agenda's is the push of cultural Marxism and the left. Just look at society everything is slowly being turned upside down not by coincidence, by design...
Would channel 4 do a better job with this debate?
Why does a conversation about men and masculinity always end up circling around to women and feminism.
Matriachy I guess.
klubsoda 2nd/3rd wave feminism is the root of the masculinity crisis
Probably because this just shows how little men have actually been forced to dissect their own gender identity like women have so as a result at this point they only know how to discuss masculinity through referencing relationships to other people and power structures rather than through the complex emotional relationship with themselves and their bodies that masculinity actually is. Hence the crisis.
It's about women and feminism because toxic masculinity was coined by feminists, it's a blanket term aimed specifically against men.
Because most problems around me and masculinity come back to the patriarchy which is something feminism tries to break down shocking I know!
The Masculine Man talks at these times:
20:50
32:12
44:40
57:45
The gay Arab guy avoiding talking about Arab nations. Like they're not even for you.
When the titanic was sinking - the shout was women and children first. Women have, for centuries, been placed on a pedestal, and for good reasons. However, that pedestal is now being used to beat us.
for no good reason
phil a golden cage is still a cage...
Megan, provide one example how women are caged in the west.
What are the good reasons for allowing a woman onto a boat but not a man :/ from an evolutionary perspective I suppose one man can impregnate multiple women but one woman can only be pregnant for 9months at a time so this may be where the tendency developed. However, from a moral perspective, men are just as deserving of life as women
Noor TM. Biologically I can't argue with that. I just feel men have a natural tendency to support and protect women. Women, by and large, have the same desire. After all, they are wives and mothers. However, although I gave the Titanic example, there is no requirement in maritime law.
I am a gay man and those people, talking about toxin masculinity are talking rubbish. We need more masculinity in society, responsible men who can educate their children and help them become responsible individuals. Also the young lady who is 20, who claims to have suffered sexual arrassment on a daily basis, I say in your dream lady.
She classes sexual harassment as just looking at her, twisted mind.
Michael Johnson Lol
By her standard, we've probably both been sexual harassed by more men than her
noneofurbusiness you are definitely a closet homosexual.
Well I AM and a very good one, sweetheart and very proud. You are probably like that demon in the video, that claims to be sexual arrassed every time she walks a funeral home.
the title of this debate was "is masculinity in crisis?" it became a debate about women lol
Well this was a very good men's issues conversation that focused on feminism, wage gap, women in STEM, women's role.. Wow! Took my breath away.
When you use a thumbnail like that, you have answered the question
What an endless opera of cultural decay..
Spot fucking on.
Even more relevant today, and not even factoring the pandemic
Comedian guy nailed it
being completely honest I wanted to be like James Bond growing up.
I still do now
Now at 27, I still do
And what's wrong with wanting to be like James Bond? He's strong, handsome, charming, witty and does very well with the women. All men should aspire to be like him. (not the killing people part, of course)
@@Achilles94627 Eh...have you read the books? Its like the gentlemen said the actual character was a depressed alcoholic who only slept with married women lol. Not exactly something to aspire to but hes still cool.
You're not James Bond, Jeremy
Why is he always letting the people who align with his political views speak first, interrupt ( and tell them to keep talking), and get their point through while interrupting the opposite side!?
I used to occupy shit jobs. Never ever saw a feminist complaining to get my shit job with my shit pay check that leave you with a shit health at the end of the day.
'A woman's 'toxicity' is not her fault - it's because of the patriarchy'. Just mind blowing!! How do these people actually get through the day?
lol
lol I love how women act like they don't sexual harass men. You know how many times women have walked up to me and just grabbed my biceps and said, "you must work out a lot huh" I laugh it off and don't get mad about it but could you imagine going up to a girl and doing that? smh
tameone so we're comparing arms vs privates?
Just One Time so what you saying grabbing a woman's arm is ok then 🤔 interesting! So why calling it sexual harassment
WORK HARD STAY HUMBLE.
Men grab (squeeze, playfully hit, etc) my arm all the time.
It's not sexual at all (unless he does all that while telling me he wants to do sexual things to me).
Now if a man did all that to my butt or boobs I would switch.
For real. It's not just arms either. I can't tell you the amount of times I've had my chest rubbed as a lady walked by or my ass grabbed or hit on. Ladies are not bashful about that stuff
you said it yourself " playfully " meaning u are familiar with those men , how about getting squeeze by a complete stranger ?
I sat through 2 hours of Jack and Jill at the cinema and yet I can't bear to sit through an hour of this shit.
Same here it makes me really angry listening to these no marks,the bbc are so corrupt,this Scottish twat is part of the plot. Makes me want to smash my computer. Grrr
when i first heard the term, "toxic masculinity" it offended me b/c any sane person can see this war on masculinity and men, and I have brothers who I don't want to grow up to be pansies. But then I spoke to a feminist on the matter and she explained to me that masculinity in itself isn't toxic, but there is a form or idea of it that can be toxic to men themselves and to those in his life. Such as the idea that men should never show their emotions or are never allowed to be week and must always dominate others and ignore boundaries. Of course, feminists go too far with this idea and view all masculinity as bad. We need masculinity! Masculine energy channeled in the right direction results in hard work, healthy competition, being an emotional rock (but not b/c he can't deal with his emotions but b/c he can), being a protector and provider, however channeled in a bad direction results in insecurity, being a bully, being an emotional leach, and even to things such as murder, school shootings, rape, and suicide. Social studies have found that there is a direct co-relation btwn distant or absent fathers for boys and insecure, stunted men. And we need the good form of masculinity for almost every aspect of society, including defending against the bad form of masculinity such as ISIS.
Not to put everything off on men, there are too good and bad, healthy and unhealthy forms of females as well, but that's not what this video is about.
This world scares me. I hope men continue to be men! Manly, manly men. This “toxic masculinity” shit needs to stop.
Notice how the men on the left always get to make their points at length without interrupted but when the men on the right make counter-points or bring up different arguments, they get interrupted by the men on the left and the men on the left get additional speaking time. Also the host seemed to steer the men on the right a hell of a lot while letting the men on the left rant uninterrupted.
That’s because the BBC is lefty
how ignorant do you have to be to believe in something without doing any research or possessing any data whatsoever. That rizzle kicks guy is the worst
rizzle kicks looool
the host is always bad and biased but this was so frustrating, just emotional people shouting over the people with facts and the host letting it happen, and whenever an actual discussion on the topic arises feminism an conflation angrily butts in....
Agreed. This show can be fantastic but the host sways the discussions too much instead of staying neutral.
LazyGoose872 Nicky Campbell is a fully paid up leftist who plays the occasional (his own definition of) devils advocate.
marccas10 yep I think you've nailed it there, I think my main issue is that he always tries to talk down the people that present factual information in favour of those that might have their feelings hurt, at least the conversation got better later in the show haha
He's always a bit of a cock!
Much of masculinity is responsibility and accountability. When everything is someone else's fault, it's quite clear masculinity is under threat. On a physical level masculinity is in crisis, with men around the world having lower testosterone than previous generations. The question isn't "is masculinity in crisis," the question is in how many ways is it in crisis?
Exactly. Well said.
7:36 This is another problem... "Patriarchy, for me.." When you define something so subjectively how do you ever expect anyone to know what the hell you are talking about, or for people to come to a consensus... I feel like language and how people interpret things is so self-centered sometimes.
Actual defintion: a system of society or government in which the father or eldest male is head of the family and descent is traced through the male line. He never even mentions the role of men in the idea of patriarchy... smh
Really poor moderation too... every time an interesting point came up (usually the Comedian flannel shirt guy), it was doused out and funnelled back into useless noise. The guy on the far left with the hideous orange hearts shirt kept banging on about diversity and women even when the topic was men under-performing in schools, or men not having good role models, or male suicide rates, or the value of stoicism... He just couldn't have it not be about him, so kept interrupting with tone-deaf, bland feminist catchphrases.
Civil Owl that’s what nicky Campbell does, I hate him.
The ex editor of the lads mag was spot on we need more men in schools but young boys need men to be Men and not some androgynous pc faux man.
Neanderthal.
They also need men educators that won't sexually abuse students.
Josh Kirby
My point is that boys need male role models who also allow boys to be boys. There is no escaping from the fact that boys and girls
differ physiologically and psychologically and as such our boys and I mean black and white working class boys in particular are being damaged by an education system that sees healthy masculine traits such as competitiveness and a will to be the best as some how "Toxic"
Amru how do you identify ... Well i was born a man but now i dont ide- Okay , thankyou no need to tell men how to be men then. 'Patriarchy for me is...' No, it either is or it isn't we cannot all walk around with our own definitions of the most central parts of our society and expect everyone to bend to them when the facts do not hold up.
The host is complicit in the destruction of men. This is a bbc program. Expect complete bias in the favour of women.
Women: “I’ve had men speak over me which is....”
Men: *interrupt and speak over her *
I made a cup of tea and thought great some of the issues ,as a 46 year old man with 5 children, 4 of them boys, are going to be thrashed out. Alas , the best part of an hour was used up with, " but what about the women?"
Is masculinity in crisis? ........ Yes am afraid it still is. Nothing was accomplished here.
James Heyworth I worry for my son. I might lose it if a teacher says my son is suffering from toxic masculinity or he is too "hyper" (not acting like a little girl)
Mushu's Social Madnesss ,
I understand your worries Mushu, it's like the way they are labelling boys with ADHD in a school environment where there is no losers. In other words there is no competitive exercise to ware-out our young boys. It is a bad analogy, but most young boy are like dogs, if they are a little unruly, or playing up a bit, they need exercise. They do not need drugs or counselling to slow them down, or to emasculate, or feminise ,or just to have them better controlled ....... Like the girls.
Boys in school need male role figures. Boys in school need competitive exercise. Boys in school need competition in other areas too, boys need to know where they stand in life.
This is a bit controversial, but I think boys and girls should be separated at school, as it used to be. Mixed schools have ONLY benefited girls.
James Heyworth
5 kids? What are you? Black?
Jaybee,
Yes 5 children 4 of which I am the father, my oldest ( I call them all mine) is at university, and is from a former partner of my missus.
I know, I know, I was too stupid to see a red flag, even though it was slapping me in the face.
But that is not why I'm replying to you. The biggest mistake I've made, and I've made a few, like if I stayed single I would have payed off my first house now.... There is more..... But I do love my partner ( not married) and all my kids. We are now on OUR second house, and I'm mortgaged until I'm dead.
But the biggest mistake is having a vasectomy. Why? Because that was my last and only power I believe I had. She no longer looks at me the same. I'm broken now( her words, always said in jest) and I did this FOR her.
What do I mean by the only power? If we split up ( and it is looking more and more likely as time goes on) she would have everything ,the house ,the kids, income. The only thing I had was the threat that I could have children with other women, and in her head may love them more than the ones we have now. That threat as gone now....... And now I feel useless.
Moral of this ramble...... Never have a vasectomy, ever. Women have sooo many more forms of birth control than men. For me it was an excuse to go bareback anytime I wanted...... But it soon dried up, the sex that is.
Vasectomies will make you feel less masculine. Never do it.
Hardly going to see Jordan Peterson on this. Debate would be over.
I'm sorry you're a part of his cult. Ask Jordan if homosexuals should exist or if they should adopt and his brain glitches out because he cannot conflate his vehement "love" of free speech and his retrograde christian "values" which paint men and women as different species. He's a charlatan, but keep praising him as GOD, by all means.
Voeris clearly u haven't watch an unedited video of him. Go drag yourself out of the mob mentality maybe even educate yourself and start to think as an individual. If not keep watching buzz feed, CNN, BBC and all the other mainstream propaganda news machines
Umm.... My comment is making reference to TWO unedited videos of him. You're one to talk of "mob mentality" lol... The way you speak of him clearly shows cult of personality behavior. (Hey I am sometimes guilty of this too, with Yoko Taro, but he's a game designer so...) I hate Buzz Feed, I don't feed off of mainstream media. Try harder. Sorry I don't fit into your small world-view. (which is expected of Jordan Peterson fans, I mean for them to be amazed by his words, you kind of need to have a small world view)
Voeris your just another zombie lefty worried when people step off your plantation and think for themselves. Every single person who has a different idea to the main stream gets lambasted with attacks and smears on their character but don’t worry keep your eyes closed..... block your ears and keep swallowing up all your PC bullshit.
+Sonai Jesus Christ... Either you're a terrible troll, or you are completely lost. Tell me, where on the doll did the lefty/SJW touch you!?!?! You're just another edgyboi like your daddy Jordan Peterson lol. You do know he took a canadian law looking to mitigate discrimination against transexual people TWISTED IT, LIED about it and WAILED like a baby to attract all the poor lost souls like you still clinging so strongly to gender roles, don't you?
The topic is "Masculinity in Crisis" but the (non) debate was all about women; replete with the same stale "patriarchy" blather. Disappointing.
It's pathetic.
It's not about toxic masculinity or toxic femininity. It's about narcisism
Signs not to take someone serious when arguing with:
- nose ring
- extremely colorful attire
- random bandana
- switching argument to begin defensive
- attacks men
Somebody who was born in the Middle East, and who would likely be killed for being gay, and be unable to present themselves as a Drag Queen, and would in no way have the ability to use they/them pronouns, and has moved to the UK, and been granted the rights and freedoms to express themselves as they see fit, has the utter, unbelievable cheek to call the white people of the nation who help uphold those freedoms wicked, and privileged, and for essentially making life difficult for minorities is unbelievable. The fact that they won't even seem to criticise the Middle East - one of the most brutally misogynistic regions on Earth, for their toxic anything, is blood boiling.
the gay guys points are outrageous
18:42- "What is the problem with being a feminist?"
Because people end up like you...
Lion yeah you’re high, it’s nothing to do with socials or schools it’s to do with dumb ideas being allowed to surface and the critique of those ideas being not allowed as it’s “offensive” etc Btw both sides here are absolute shit
In other words the more educated you are the more stupid your views are... that makes sense.. to the uneducated.
The conversation devolved pretty quickly in this discussion. From my understanding (and from the brief bit of clarification you get early on from the first speaker), toxic masculinity is used to refer to aspects of stereotypically masculine traits that can cause harm to oneself and/or others.
Examples of such traits are: Dealing with situations via violence (leading to much higher levels of violent crime among men - although, Testosterone and other biochemistry/neuroanatomy may play a part in that), not confronting one's emotions (which can lead to depression or anger outbursts), Dominance (leading to feelings of inadequacy when not achieved), womanising (possibly a side-effect of the dominance stereotype) etc.
I think that these are the 'toxic' parts of masculinity that people talk about. There are some great aspects of 'masculinity' which should not be forgotten, and also some toxic parts of 'femininity' (the over-emphasis on beauty for example) that can lead to damage, too. I think the important thing is that people are not blaming men/women for these attributes, just pointing out the effects of them, and asking us to look at them sceptically and possibly change our outlook on how we conduct ourselves as a society.
Where's Jordan Peterson when you need him!!
Hiding from the zionists.
I agree with you
It was annoying when they were more focused on getting their word in rather than realizing that the same issues were plaguing "both sides". But they were so self-driven by their ego they couldn't be self-aware.
There is no pay gap and no inequality. All these victims, it's pathetic
"...its conducted by the patriarchal system! its not a Woman's fault!!" equal right but not equal responsibilities! Bravo Sir!
Pedro Nunes its not the same...if women don’t have the same level on influence....then they shouldn’t have more responsibility...thats dumb
The guy from rizzlekicks chats so much shit looool
that resolved nothing
On a vacation to London years ago, a young lady pinched my bottom. I didn't care about it and did not turn it into a problem (meaning complain about sexual harassment). I was pleased that a lady had done that and required no effort for me. I love London.
Semantics are important. It’s annoying when toxic-masculinity is femsplained as to why it’s use justified instead of using misandry or internalised misandry. It always leads back to patriarchy and thus completely ignores women’s role in established gender norms. Feminists seem to care more about using and explaining the term rather than actually making any progress for men.
Wait... Wasn't this a discussion on Men? Why has it been brought back to Women?
You know that house you live in? Built by a man. That road you drive on? Built by a man, etc etc etc.
You know who carried you for 9 months and then gave birth to you and all those other men? I'm serious, because you seem to have forgotten. We're all in this together, stop trying to divide us up. Also search for "inventions by women". I've worked with men and women and there's no difference in ability or output.
By you? Your very lack of any sense of person achievement radiates through your comment. Nothing wrong with that - I can't say I've any plans to cure cancer - but I don't hide behind those who do and attack women for not being men.
Because working class girls are guided into low paid, insecure work like hair and beauty and childcare instead of construction :)
I suggest you start work on that 'artificial womb' because the chance of any consensual impregnation of a human female on your part presumably drops exponentially when you violate the terms of any active restraining orders and initiate verbal contact. Perhaps you can sculpt one from concrete and after your inevitable 'episode' it will go on display in an outsider art exhibit ironically providing you with the recognition and status you craved in your life pre-incarceration, thereby adding to the piece's artistic merit.
My father and now my brother have run electric companies for over fifty years. They have several times tried to have women work for them but the women just cannot keep up physically. Its not that they are dumb or not wanting to work but physically just cannot do the job. It is unfortunate but we are just products of evolution. Men evolved physically, mentally and emotionally to fill role in society. Women evolved to fill other roles. Sorry sjws but evolution doesn't respect your "feelings" on the matter.
I believe 100% in equality of opportunity where feminism and other social justice types have failed is in trying to deny basic biology. Both men and women have important roles to fulfill in our society and you are doing a disservice to us all in trying to force an "equality of outcome".
Personally I love that men and women are different. There are things i get from other men (and from being a man). As there are things I get from women. I'm not surprised to hear that testosterone levels are falling in the west. I cannot imagine how attacking men and masculinity wouldn't effect us.
I remember being young and trying to live the sjw version of a man. What it led to for me was suicide attempts and drug addiction. In my mid 20"s I "manned" up, cleaned up, no more suicide attempts and I started getting laid on a regular basis.. Funny how that is.
the very fact that they took the question "is masculinity in crisis?" and spend most of what i saw talking about feminine issues. this confirms to me that feminists are so self centered there is no point in debating them.
I know. I am so tired of wasting my breath, time and energy on these already overprivileged assholes.
The black kid at the end makes a valid point on masculinity. The fact that males may not like to talk emotionally about there problems to one another. Afraid to be vulnerable, is seen as weakness in the masculine world. It doesn't surprise me that suicide is high.
When did a man wanting to protect his wife or girlfriend or partner become a bad thing? And protecting a man protecting a woman doesn't necessarily mean on a physical level, but on an emotional one as well. It's like my father has previously said, you hurt my wife's feelings then you hurt me as well. While I can't speak for all women I think you'll be hard pressed to find a woman who wouldn't want a partner that was willing to fight for them. And believe, me it's not as if there aren't women who wouldn't be willing to fight for their man as well. It's not a one way street in the modern western world. Both sexes want someone who is going to be there for them no matter what.
Is it strange that everyone got mad when the man interrupted the woman, but no one seems to mind when everyone yells over the man?
Not really surprising to me. It would be strange if we were living in a patriarchy.
How is it possible that feminist can brain-wash men to this extent? It's really baffling. Something I just can't get my head around it.
R. O-T it took a hundred years to do it the drip drip effect
i am not espousing feminist talking points i am just answerthe question i rather have my eye digged with a spoon than be feminist thank you not that weak of human being
I was agreeing with you, and adding the point that ethnic minorities espousing feminist talking points is just another way to attack whites, particularly white men.
that is so true and i find it weird as tohow bad it has become it seem like we have gone back to 1930s with better technology. and also in democratic country where the minorities have more say that major is even more crazy
R. O-T there not men They are males.big difference
So I thought this big Q was supposed to be about about men but the first half seemed to be only about women's issues. Don't get me wrong, both sexes have there problems but this was supposed to be a platform to discuss men's issues!
It's what happens when the people you get to oppose the notion have no knowledge, insight or ideas on the topic so they have to fall back onto what they know: Playing the victim and dodging the questions asked. Like seriously, how did those 2 young "men" in particular get invited on, especially as representatives. They provided nothing to the discussion and only served to waste time and spout catchphrases they think sound smart.
I imagined during the middle of this debate that Christopher Hitchens just walks out, everybody shuts the fucks up, he quietly scans the audience with a whiskey in one hand and a cigarette in the other and then drops a Hitch Slap then leaves. God, i miss that man so much. Unapologetic masculine and intelligent.
Ugh the comments are just as cringey as I thought. I keep hearing about the lack of “intelligence” but no actual counterpoints or citations. But this moderator is kinda bad at his job too. Idk like even if I was conservative leaning I would still find his moderator too interruptive and poor timing
WESTERN SOCIETY IS DOOMED LOL
The big questions is such a good show!! They truly openly discuss very interesting topics - we wouldn't see that sort of show on american tv anytime soon
The right side of the room articulated their thoughts very well.
misogynistic thoughts
thehoneyeffect how so?
Yes it is in crisis, the testosterone (male hormone) levels on men just answered that question
a debate about masculinity and women get annoyed when they don't talk about their experiences, says it all
Men ARE strong! Men DO protect! Men DO govern! These are inherent, biologically predetermined feature of maleness. We are not all equal, we can never be! However we can be equally treated under the law!!
Women select men based on biological unconscious predisposition. If they can't respect or in some cases fear you, they can't love you or be loyal to you.
I'm sorry but since I was born, I felt like I should treat every women like a piece of glass that can be shattered if I don't behave well. I didn't felt this way about men. And I'm fed up with it, especially that women that I know are not fragile.
In this day and age women, in the eyes of the government are treated equally to men, even privilege in some case. And as for the guy that said that 11% of director are women, What's wrong with that? Don't you think it's about different interest between men and women?
Men and Women have different interest, different behavior and personalities. That's why you have a lot of Women directed towards cares and social, is there an injustice that there is more Nurse women than men ? no... It's just how it is. Look at stem fields, they do a lot of programs to get girl into science, same for coding., They are privilege whit those programs.But it don't work much... why? Because difference of interest, and that's fine...
JocTer exactly. I work at an elementary school. And have worked at many of them during my career. (A lot of different ones when I did summer school.). Out of about 20-30 teachers at each building there have been maybe 1 or 2 that are male. That's it. Yet I don't see feminists fighting for more men to teach k-5. Most men just don't want to. And that's ok.
This is literally NOTHING. Actually NOTHING. Meaningless nothingness.
Some of these traits associated with masculinity like this having to "man up", could simply be rephrased to "the need to be strong", which is not necessarily bad advice but should of course not exclusively apply to men, but for all humans, because if a person doesnt learn how to deal with problems it will have a negative on their lives and make them have to depend on others.
The reason, I believe, that this "being strong" is/was mostly associated with masculinity is, because, in the recent past, men were considered to be the provider and protector of the family and therefore said values were more important for men.
Long story short: not all values associated with masculinity are bad, but should not be limited to men, but rather any person who wants to be independant and succeed in life,
also rape is bad.
And please excuse my somewhat bad english.
Why ask someone who can't even decide what sex he is about masculinity?
Fed up of this shit.
That Jordan could not go 2 minutes without interrupting, I bet he's a laugh to hang out with.
Mark86Co He’s on his period. You must excuse him.
yeah i noticed that. hes a bit of a brat.
"Is masculinity in crisis?"
Thumbnail of a dude wearing a polka-dot shirt
Self harming is primarily a female thing so I have read. I wonder would this kid have the balls to call that toxic femininity since "behaviour that harms oneself and others" is gendered toxicity according to him? Well when men do it anyway...
I said self harming fucktard. So what of it?
3/4 of all suicides in Britain is done by males between the ages of 15 to 40. The expectations on males causes them so much grief, so they end up killing themselves. THAT is toxic masculinity.
Qq Perfect
Your reasoning is definitely part of why men/boys kill themselves, but its also because of douche bags who call them "toxic males" in the first place, simply for being themselves rather than accept them as they are.
Again I will reiterate the point I was trying to make, since you appear to have missed it... Is it "toxic femininity" when women attempt suicide then, since women attempt suicide more often than men and because you people who use terms like "toxic masculinity" believe in equality? Also wouldn't it be more accurate rather than victim blaming, to target the actual perpetrators who drive these men to commit suicide?? You know, like bullies that attempt to control them via shaming language such as "toxic masculinity"??? And by the way, go fuck yourself!
BurtMeister3000 ruclips.net/video/y_CZ9AJnAu4/видео.html
I'm not interested in your links or legitimizing your false notions of bullshit. But I did notice your failed to answer my question... Is it toxic femininity when women do it?
Too many inexperienced men talking.
when that guy says 'toxic femininity' i knew there was no longer any point in this discussion and nothing said would sink into this man at all. He literally can't have a conversation with men, about men talking about men's issues and what men do to each other, without somehow finding some way to blame women, whom have NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.
Half way through this debate and almost all of it so far has been concerning problems with women and the existence of the patriarchy. Very thorough debate so far...
Toxic Femininity
I'm male - ish.
This is a just a pissing contest to see who can come up with the most buzz-words.
I'm a woman and I can honestly say that 25% of the month, I am not able to perform as well as the rest of the month because of my hormones. Should I be paid as much as a man because my tummy hurts and I can't work? HECK NO! Can I lift up the same heavy loads as my fellow men? NO. Should I also get paid while I got on maternity leave?! We cannot reach equality, because WE ARE DIFFERENT.
I'd like to add that I enjoy playing the cis-woman role within a my patriarchal couple... am I oppressing other women?
The 3rd wave feminism, in its effort to be inclusive and anti-oppressive, is actually doing 'levelling down' to accomodate a small minority of trans/non-binary/gender fluid people, and many have issues with using words such as 'women', 'gyne-' but do not mind saying 'men' and 'masculinity'... they'll even use the word 'feminist' despite it being (according to their own requirements) oppressive... oh but because men are on top, we'd be allowed to slash them?!! Bunch of confused people who were given too many participation prizes.
18:40 - how can you even ask what's the problem with being a feminist? **EVERYTHING!!!!**
28:20 “I’ve experienced multiple accounts of sexual harassment” lmao.. sure you have...
Also why do all these feminists have such god awful eyebrows?..
attacking appearance? sit down
lol as if feminists dont attack men's and non-feminist women's looks all the time
Attacking how someone looks is low regardless of wether they are a feminist or not. As a woman she probably has experienced sexual harassment- it’s very common.
39:33 He hit the nail on the head
Hamish Rev calm down reverend
He was very close to the truth. I believe he claimed that money was the only factor determining a man's sexual market value. There are a few other things but mostly he's right about hypergamy
It's Looks, Money, Status. Have a look at this video of this guy breaking it down on what women want. ruclips.net/video/EFnJMPQow7A/видео.html
Yeah basically. Money and status begin to matter more after a women has peaked in her sexual market value.
he made a great point
love how they fill the audience with feminist and give a biased feminist presenter... seems to be an agenda going on here
The guy with the grey beard and the checkers shirt has made the most sense through out all of this!
The 20 year old woman who spoke is a great example of inequality led on by feminism. In this debate, everyone was talking over everyone and interrupting everyone, but when it happens to her, she plays the woman card. That makes me doubt the daily experiences she speaks of.
All beta males
After watching this I feel like everyone should stop using the term "toxic" and exchange it for something meaningful and precise.
If masculinity is in crisis,it may have something to do with the fact that men,with no instruction nor support, are supposed magically to be experts at earning,leading,initiating,work,sex,dating,approaching women,conversation,being stable,expressing emotion in the right way(too much=cissy,too little=closed off),troubleshooting everything,self-defence,maintaining status,being wealthy,being a rock,loving rejection and failure to show strength,competing against men for women's attention.....all the while being ridiculed by radfems,accused of perversions constantly in msm,mocked for lack of confidence,excoriated if seen as sexually confident and able to attract women,ridiculed for weakness,aspersed for not showing approved feelings only,expected to be sexually confident whilst being told you are a potential creep if nervous or a caveman if you are not....with few role models to admire.Please feel free to add more ridiculous expectations..I may have overlooked one.I also love the idea that some women don't enjoy enormous sexual power.The singer Lana del Ray had a song called'F...ed my way to the top 'and admitted she used her sexual charm to attempt to better herself. Total respect to her for honesty!!Oh no,a woman has just said I'm privileged to be a white cis male.Thank you for that,you are raising my consciousness.Why do feminists insist they have been facing lots of sexual assault all the time,without being required to define exactly what they mean?I am so fed up with men being accused of vague crimes that are never defined properly.I thought sexual assault meant someone pinned you down or groped you.Does this feminist woman get groped multiple times a day?Does a shop assistant grope her as she pays?Does her neighbour wish her good morning as he gropes her?Does the mailman stick his hand through her letterbox for a quick grope?When she asks for stamps at the post office,is she told 'That'll be £2.50 and a grope please.'?
This is a great example of facts vs feelings.
Divorce is going down? What world are you living in?
Look. I am not a feminist, but the dude in the gray suit absolutely BLEW it by not allowing the young lady to speak.
So there's one thing I have been a female for a very long time (because I am a female born a female). Us women have dark disgusting sides. I didn't like the fact that one of the contestants stated that it is the patriarchy that makes you believe women are bad. No some women just need help and so do men. That takes away accountability from those women who are evil.
being a man isn't about dressing a certain way or talking in a certain way. it's about being who i am. as long as there are men around there will always be masculinity too.
I'm a 17-year-old woman, and when I was 13 years old, I killed my family's pit-bull puppy. His name was Poppy. I killed him by tying a rope to his collar and than putting in over a large branch on a tree which had a hunting post on it. I got up onto the hunting post, grabbed a hold of the rope, and then began pulling the rope down. As I pulled the rope down, Poppy was lifted up in the air. My hands were shaking while i did the deed; and I watched as his body shacked ferociously until, finally, I heard his neck snap. I then got down from the hunting post, untied the rope from his collar, put his leash on his collar, and grabbed a hold of the leash while dragging him through the woods. I put his body underneath some bushes. I left the body there for about a month and then went back to the site, and all that was left was bones (it was summer). I kept going back to the spot almost everyday, and then I took his canine teeth from his skull and put them in my room. Not too long after I did this, I took his head and put it on a tree branch. I then brought my sister into the wood, showed her the head, and told her it was a coyote's head.
Reading the comments about people not believing this girl was harassed almost every day, I have now reached that part of the video. It has become quite clear to me, that I agree. As one comment or wrote, “not without copious amounts of alcohol”