For decades rim brakes were good enough, why should they be bad now? No matter if rim brakes, disc brakes or any other technical equipment ... we are always responsible for the way how we use them. Unfortunately that`s more and more what people are not willing to accept ... in any situation.
Exactly this. Have been on rim brakes myself for twenty years and they were good enough. Now on disc brakes, I feel like they are better but I ride my bike the same way I used to do with rim brakes.
Rim brakes are great with alloy wheels. I still use them. The problem is the industry wants to sell carbon wheels. When you do long mountain descents I wouldn't trust rim brakes on carbon wheels personally.
Never rode down a steep mountain at speed with rim brakes in the rain. Never considered them "good enough" for that. Also remember a crash in the snow. YMMV.
@@hcw199 The worst kept secret is that carbon was delaminating under some riders (which one could argue lacked common sense to manage glazing/melting/modulation on pads) and it became cheaper for manufacturers to push discs instead of producing better rim compounds. They're making more money now, not having to worry about delaminating. This was all to make the life of rim manufacturers much more comfortable, with marginal gains to riders.
I treated my self with an S-Works Tarmac SL6, back then I had the choice to go Disc or stay Rim. I chose rim. Glad I did after seeing all the stuff my buddies have to deal with. Bent rotors, bleeding kits, squeaking, pinging noises… i love the simplicity of rim brakes and hope it never goes away
I've used rim and disc brake bikes on all types of terrain and weather conditions. The most important thing is understanding both your limits and the machine you're riding. All of my bikes handle differently and require a different input from me. For rim brakes I prefer a softer brake compound for better braking ability such as offered by KoolStop.
I think you’re quite right about the fact regarding the reliance on technology rather than technique which comes from experience. I’ve found SwissStop pads to be the the most effective, maybe worth a try when the Prime pads are worn.
Very balanced video mate, comes down to personal preference whether you run rim or disc. Thanks for not selling out like other channels saying you need disc, truth is rim brake is enough. It worked fine for decades. Have a good weekend Danny from Strava
Rode my old rim brake Cervelo in Mallorca last summer. Isolated I would say i had no problem with my rim brakes. But on one ride i met a local Mallorcan cyclist and a very good British amateur racer. All was good untill we started the decent to Pollenca. They were on discs and I was on rim. Even though I had aluminum rims (dura ace c24) the pads felt like chewing gum. I think disc brakes allow you to get of the brakes faster and that way get more time to cool between corners. I had to brake earlyer and deeper into the corners compared to the guys on discs. This was only a problem in a short part of the decent but still very noticeable and anerving.
Of course. If I were racing downhill I would go discs maybe. I prefer to accept the limitations descending and keep the benefits of a lighter and more responsive bike for my budget.
Nicely done. Modern rim brakes are good in my book. Much better than the ones I learnt on in my youth with steel rims in the wet. Like you driving high performance cars without ABS or any skid control let you learn how to work on the limits of physics, rather than technology. I also learnt to shoot on film and process my images. And today, using my digital cameras, I shoot RAW and manual. Those old skills still very relevant. My current bikes do have disc brakes, but that was due to what was available when I got back into cycling again. Loved the LEGO props. 👌
I remember descending from a bridge in a city on steel rims in the rain when I was just lucky no cars were coming at the next crossing as I wasn't able to stop. 😂
OK, you are a man that thinks the same as I do but you put it in a very eloquent and reasoned way. What I cannot seem to get across to the disc brake crowd, is that a rim brake is a disc brake. There were never any problems as long as the rim was steel or aluminum. Of course, as soon as manufacturers started to produce full carbon wheels, they found out very quickly that bonding an aluminum brake track was either difficult or expensive. Obviously, it is not impossible because snow skis have had metal edges bonded to the plastic for years without issue. Disc brakes free up the wheel manufacturer from having to think about the problems of providing a brake track. Now, on modern disc brake equipped bikes, you have a very thin and delicate disc that can be damaged and warped. I do not think it is quite so easy to widen the pad spacing as on a rim brake so you can still get home if you happen to crash and bend your wheel. I am no longer in the condition to race so there is zero motivation to buy a modern bike. If I really felt the need, I would buy a modern drive train with a wider gear ratio to install on my old bikes.
Refreshing commentary! I like your idea of braking before turning more sharply coming through the corner, and then exiting in a straighter line. Technique, tricks that make riding fun, seems to be overlooked by enthusiasts in favor of more abstract issues such as training schedules, power meters, and mileage goals. What's fun in that? It's true rim brakes aren't as powerful as disc brakes, just grip harder, never brake in the turn, and it's all good! BTW, plain old aluminum rims modulate speed nicely and don't warp like discs or heat up as much. I've heard stories of discs getting so hot, they melt all the lube in the axle. Your insight is right on. Don't ride the brakes, whether rims or discs. The brakes won't fade nor the pads wear down as fast. Mountain descents show ya where it's at.
Another great video Federico! Lots of good advice there. At the end of the day, cyclists all over Europe have been descending technical mountain roads for a very long time. Until 3/4 years ago, everyone had rim brakes! Personally I climbed and descended over 100,000m last year in the south of France on a rim brake bike. Some of the descents I regularly do are very fast and technical coming from 2,000m down to sea level. At no point have I ever felt I didn’t have the braking I needed. I don’t ride carbon wheels though. Aluminium Hunt Race Aero Wides which are about 1400g the pair from memory, a great match to my Emonda SL6, less than 8kg. Rim brakes well set up, good wheels and pads are all you ever need! Keep the excellent videos coming and glad you enjoyed Mallorca!
Glad to hear your trip was a success. For next time just get some decent alloy wheels like a DT Swiss DiCut Oxi, lightweight and the brakes work amazing and your descending confidence will skyrocket. You don't need carbon wheels like you don't need disc brakes.
@@fede1275 don't think you'll feel any difference while climbing and one barely pedals on descents. Psycological difference, maybe, but again you can't see your wheels while riding. The deeper wheels 'may' make a difference on the flats but no one goes to Mallorca for the flats, lol.
Your experience feedback is very interesting Federico, thanks for sharing it. For years, i was conviced that Rim brakes were enough and disc brakes wasn't needed as it add weight, cost and additionnal maintenance on the bikes. I changed my mind recently because there is an argument that close the debate (even i still like rim brakes and disc brakes could be a source of issues like brake freezing) : the safety argument! Indeed, i think disc brakes are much more efficient in case of emergency use. Beside that, yes rim brakes use are all about anticipation, braking power management as you mentionned well. The braking surface quality on carbon wheels could be a "heating" factor considering the use with a lot of elevation. High slope contributes some additionnal heating too. Simon.
Disc brakes on the bicycles might be too much though. You hit a pothole and you suddenly apply too much brake force. You get a dose of adrenaline and you suddenly squeeze brakes too much. It starts to rain and you can easily apply to much brake force with one flick of a finger. To me it feels like I would drive Renault Clio instead of a race car with firm controls. I would also argue that there are more accidents in bicycle races since mass adoption of disc brakes.
Your braking capacity is defined by the friction between the wheel and road. Both rim and disc brakes can lock up the wheel effectively. Therefore, disc brakes, which are heavier, harder to service and more expensive, are an unnecessary complexity.
Ciao Federico Another excellent video.👍🏻 I agree with you, I think the rim/disc argument is fairly mute now. You pay the money, you take the choice, no matter what the “industry” says. Rims are lovely and light going up hill and easy to fix, but not so great in the wet. Discs are great in the wet but can be heavy and are virtually impossible to fix on the road side. People should just buy the bike they want and shut up and enjoy the ride! Alla prossima. Ciao amico mio
it's not that simple, I want a brand new rim brake road bike with dura ace preferably. I cant get one! and I dont want to build my own bike I don't know how and I dont want second hand because i have no idea what I am buying.
I'm a good descender as I've always liked speed. Knowing when to brake and ones line is important to keep in control. Very easy to overcook unfamiliar corners which can unexpectedly hook around further than the entry suggests. I nearly crashed a few months back while racing because of this. I assumed the downhill corner wasn't as sharp as it was (exit hidden by foliage) so very lucky to be able to run wide and rub off speed before hitting the ditch(which I missed with inches to spare).
Huge respect riding those descents with carbon rim brake wheels. I am too unskilled or maybe just worried too much about delamination. Hope one day i will get there. Great video again. Glad to see you had a great time on the island.
It's not a problem. Mallorca's hills aren't steep or long enough to pose a problem & neither are alpine hills to be honest. I've used carbon clinchers in both cases, modern wheels are quite advanced compared with 15 years ago.
@@fede1275 thats great to hear. Some years ago i want out on a rainy ride with some cheap carbon rim brake wheels. Did just slide thru as if i would not have any brakes. Since then i avoided rain with rim brakes. Sounds like i might want to give them another chance with some modern wheels.
I never rode a bike with disc brakes so far, but I can say that my 10 speed ultegra rim brakes coupled with aluminium wheels are always enough to stop safely. And I weigh 82 kg and ride a 9kg bike. In all honesty, the few times I found myself in uncomfortable situations it was because of my misjudgement or excessive confidence. We'll see how it goes when I'll finally purchase a more modern bike with disc brakes, but before pulling the trigger I want a higher FTP 😂. Anyway, excellent piece of advice about the braking technique!! Bravissimo e continua così 😃
The newer high temperature resins they use in a lot of carbon rims now compared to 5 to10yrs ago means less chance of delamination. But always good to check. I delaminated(just the brake track luckily) a carbon rim on a long straight descent with a sharp corner at bottom. 85 to 30kph in 10 to 15seconds. My heavier friend on a more expensive carbon rim wheelset I was following was fine. The replacement rim was a high temp resin and no more issues. However I usually take my training bike with the alloy wheelset when riding lots of hills as braking is excellent.
Great video, my disc brake bike is back in the shop 3rd time now, so for the last week I've been riding my aluminium rim brake bike and I totally forgot how much you have to be alert but the bike feels lighter and disc's definitely give people a false sense of security.
Nice video! loved all your points, nice using photography as example. I remember in 1975, at a bikeshop, a guy came in to tell the owner the brakes on his son's roadbike was set too good, he went over the bars braking too hard! I still use a 1954 Leica M3, used for over 100 weddings, own 7 bikes, one a disc gravel, with 3 sets of carbon wheels, one just learn how to use the technology.
Hello Federico, I would recommend watching peak torques latest video. His disk failed on him, very interesting to see for myself because I’m very pro rim brakes
Good video mate, with solid demonstrations! Love the Lego..😀 When it comes to carrying speed into a corner, the saying “slow in, equals fast out” works whether you’re on a bicycle, motorbike, or car. And the late turn-in is just the cherry on top of the cake💪. Cheers
oh wow I did not expect the Lego demonstration it was perfect! The late turn in and early exit is exactly what I do on blind corners especially, unless I know the corner and can perfectly see the exit. I agree, I drive and ride a lot of old school cars and motorbikes, and I love the old school feel of the shifters and carburetors. however I’m not going back after electronic fuel injection just like I’m all sold on hydraulic disc brakes. i’m a very heavy 200+lbs rider and the difference is huge, especially on the aforementioned long mountain descents that I do a lot of. all of the rest of my vehicles are disc brakes 🎉 why not the road bike? if I flew a lot with my bicycle that might be a factor however.
This year was our first bike trip to Mallorca and I can say two things: 1. Rim brakes are plenty enough. Good pads, good breaking surface and quality parts in general and you're good to go. 70-80 km/h speeds and we're still here to tell the stories ;) 2. Mallorca withdrawal syndrome is real and even after over 4 months I still think about those roads. And people, they are absolutely great to cyclist!
@@fede1275 we're definitely coming back next year. Sure, Cap de Formentor and Sa Calobra are great, but the roads between Valldemossa, Puigpunyent and Calvia were incredible, and definitely less people than those most famous destinations.
Federico, are you trying to convince us this bike is ... USED?!?!? This looks as clean as when its unboxed! I cant remember when my 105 calipers look as clean and shiny as yours! You must be very meticulous in your cleaning routine, i would love to see a video of how you take care of your bike :) As a rim brake user living in a hilly area, i never had an issue with the rims brakes performance, but as a precaution i do take it easier in the hot days, always have the overheating factor at the back of my head.
Hahah, I had it cleaned properly! I try to do a full wash only if really needed after a gritty ride, otherwise wet wipes are very good. You are right, we always need to keep in mind the overheating danger and act accordingly.
A great video and definitely agree. I’ve still stayed on rim brakes still. I just not had the chance to get out and try some long descending yet. One day. 😁
Well done, your video. Solid info on corners and how to negotiate them. I, too, have a ractrack background with motos and a very fast Porsche. Keeping the brake temperature down by alternating front and rear is one I've used with my carbon rims. Late turn in is smart, especially when on strange descents and short sight lines. I ride very long steep routes in the Western US. Disc brake heating IS a problem on all types of vehicles. Heat warped discs cause erratic demands on tire traction. As one nears the end of a long steep descent the disc brakes are going to be different than on a flat road. I'm not certain but I think rim brakes are actually easier to modulate. I know they are certainly simpler. When I raced my car, brake compound selection was important and different, depending on the track. I had to change my brake fluid every few races or risk complete fade due to the moisture creating steam in the brake lines. Same on my track motorcycles. I think I'll stay with my rim brakes that have served me very well. Until I need another bike and I can't find one with rims.
Great video. I have the same fears. It's how I would approach it too. I'm happy to see that decent technique and common sense is enough. Of course pros used rim brakes forever, but in the back of my mind I heard a voice saying, "yes, but their skills are through the roof and they ride on closed circuits. You sre not like they are, you shoukd not do this" And of course, as you say, one can also overheat disc brakes. My other big problem is I live 120 km from anything that could be considered a hill.
I have both types of bikes: a Canyon Ultimate with carbon rim brakes and a newer Aeroad. Disc brakes offer superior stopping power, providing a wider safety margin for a fast yet safe ride on open roads. I've also used alloy rim brakes in Gran Canaria's challenging inclines, which were adequate (slightly less effective than disc brakes but better than carbon rim brakes). Adjusting your riding style to your brakes is crucial. With carbon rim brakes, gaining too much speed and braking harder for longer audibly seems to stress the rims, but they have been fine so far upon inspection. Carbon rim brakes do have the longest braking path. Overheating hasn't been an issue with any brakes, as short, sharp braking before curves and then rolling through bends with minimal adjustments at most are optimal. However, disc brakes can be a lifesaver on unknown roads, as I learned from a crash with wet, sandy alloy rim brakes after a tropical storm. Rim brakes lose significant stopping power on wet, steep declines, necessitating cautious riding. Knowing your brakes and adjusting your riding accordingly is key. Ultimately I prefer disc brakes for a ride that suits my speedy style yet is still within a cautious safety margin.
Good analysis. I still prefer the benefit of the lightweight rim brake bike together with the characteristics of the brakes. I try to be considerate when descending, but I understand what you mean.
Some great images from your trip. Looks like you had a great time. I ride rim brake and run the same prime wheels as you. I did the Fred Whitton recently so I changed back to my aluminium wheels to remove the worry of overheating carbon brake tracks. I am sure the carbon wheels would have survived but, like you, I have been worried by comments in online forums and the like. I see that you're still using the pads that come packaged with the wheels. I changed mine out to swissstop black prince and couldn't quite believe the improvement in feel and stopping power.
Yes, and on top of that I am riding RideNow TPU tubes, they are marked as rim compatible, but again there are fears on overheating them. They also worked very well. I kept the Prime pads as the wear rate is really good and I am happy with the braking. I will think about the black prince, a friend had them and from the wear they seem softer. Thanks for the feedback, they could be an option to improve the braking power.
Interesting, I have ridden in Majorca quite a bit and it is fantastic. I have also come to pretty much come to the same conclusion. Hard braking before the corner, off the brakes, turn in late, being ready to feather brake if the corner radius tightens up. But as you say a benefiit of turning in late is that in the vast majority or cases yous can see the exit. Thanks.
Just like sex, safety sells bikes. I have never heard a salesperson give a balanced argument against disc brakes, as that works against their business model. That is why rim brakes, like manual cars, will never go away. They will just be appreciated by a smaller percentage of the sport. Thanks for the summary and also for your content. I appreciate the honest and thoughtful approach to your topics.
Easier to deal with in the bike bag, dont need to worry about bending, contamination, putting in the pad blocks if the wheel is removed etc. Having sportbike experience I'm sure you can brake along side any disc bike knowing how to set up for turns coming in fast and modulating heat 🤙
According to the comments section of certain publications us rim brake riders just instantly wreck as soon as we get to anything downhill some absolute marketing nonsense being peddled.
Thank you for this video. I’m spending time in South Tirol near Bolzano. I have recently bought a sporting gravel bike with disc brakes from 3T. I a riding the same roads as with my Rim brake Pinarello. I’m finding no real difference in the brakes and the braking ability. Swiss stop Carbon rim pads with Vision 55 carbon wheels are giving me a similar braking performance as SRAM Force Discs. I do agree, that experience does play a role too . About 35 years on rim brakes and a few months on discs, I think there is a lot of hype about discs. 😉
@@fede1275 I also use Prologo Grimpeur rim brake wheels. But have not used them with high speed braking. They have a profiled braking surface which I wonder in dry conditions if more heat is developed…
The Italian shop I bought my Pinarello DogmaF8 new old stock rim brake frame, I took my 3t gravel bike for a service. Got chatting to the owner about brake performance as I personally could not see a great difference. He admitted that he thought that there was little difference and that it was the industry pushing disk brakes. Frame builders not making frames and rim brake parts becoming more difficult to obtain..
9 months later :) (yeah i subscribed recently and enjoying your videos!) I grew up in Portugal, near "serra da estrela" mountains.. used to go up there on my 90's 3x6 or 3x7 MTB.. 6.000 feet up.. No fancy gear, just rimbrakes, what we called "horseshoe" type, and for those who could afford, cantilever brakes. No fancy disc or hydraulics (at least that we could afford!) Coming down wasn't just one time tat i had to put my shoe against the rear tyre to slow down enough :) Was "funny" getting back home with a hole on my shoe. Point is... know your gear, its strengths and its limitations.. and operate within its operational envelope. Rim brakes suck for people that want to operate them outside their performance envelope... For me, Roadwise, give me a Emonda SL4 rim brake with even dirt cheap madspeed7 alloys and i will be happier than with a modern disc bike :) MTB-Wise.... nahh, disc it is! :) Thanks for your video!
Pros get paid to descend fast, but more to the point, they get paid to use the bikes they're given. The bikes they're given have disk brakes because that's what bike makers are pushing. People argue that rim brake road bikes sales are down, proving riders want disk brakes, but the sales figures are mostly due to rim brake road bike availability being down. Bike makers can't rack up sales for a product they no longer produce, right? In the region where I ride, long road descents are quite rare, so properly maintained and adjusted rim brakes are perfectly fine. They're simpler, easier to maintain, lighter, less expensive, more aerodynamically efficient, and much harder to unintentionally lock up than disk brakes. What advantage does that leave for disk brakes on a road bike?
I am with you, but unfortunately somehow the industry realised the majority of riders wanted discs and they made also the pros to switch. The reality is that the business cannot cope to maintaining both standards and it's a pity
It’s mostly marketing! I have rim brakes on my road bike (Campa Super Record) and TT bike (Campa Record Direct Mount) and with both of them I can completely block the wheels with one finger, even on dry roads. The limiting factor with modern brakes (no matter what type of) is always the tyre/road contact (and the courage of the rider, btw; many riders never experienced the capability of their brakes because of the fear to go over the frontwheel…) and no brake can alter this
thats cool the lego thats old i had that when i was young great visuals hahaha brings back memory,s and you have a smal bicycle great vid savety first and both are good but rims earley brake no problem they did it 25 yours ago and if you got disc if it is not good instakled i heard a moter cycle if the niple breaks and the fluid runs out it wil eats youre discpads and this is bad on the motorcycle
For decades rim brakes were all people had - pros and amatuers alike. And we all made do. Are disk brakes better? Yes. It's a similar discussion to ABS on motorcycles. Is it better to have disks/ABS to lean on in a 'oh no' situation? Yes. It will save you. And sometimes those situations are unavoidable, no matter how much you try to pre-plan it. But does that mean that you can't do certain things because you don't have disks? No. My road bike has rims and the only time I have ever felt them to be totally inadequate was during a ride in Devon down some very, seriously steep hills. Frankly it was utterly terrifying. But that ride also had very long, fast and sweeping decents, and I didn't have any worries about my brakes. I was able to maintain my speed, and maintain control just fine. Ultimately disks, in my experience, are better. But they will only make a difference in the tiny minority of the time. Just like ABS.
I can agree with you that discs are better, but I am not sure if the margin of improvement is as big as the ABS introduction on both cars and bikes. My fear is there is an element of over-estimating discs "betterness" on road bikes.
@@fede1275 Certainly not a totally equal comparison, but as close as I could think of at the time. ABS on bikes was revolutionary to safety and saved thousands and thousands of people from crashing, undoubtedly. To your latter comment, I think it's a person's magpie tendency for shiny and new things. Disks are the shiny and new and people want them.
Nice video! I am quite sensitive to the topic, having a rim brake bike with carbon wheels and being about 85 kg.I found that the braking in the Surrey Hills descent is way more challenging for me because of the steep descents (>10%), narrow lanes, etc. I smell quite often burning pads. On the other hand, when I ride in Sardina (I imagine similar descends as in Majorca) I feel super confident with rim brakes, because of the larger roads and less steep gradients (< 10%). It is important to say that I have there a rim brake bike with alloy wheels though. Summing up, it is true that disc brakes give you better breaking on steep descends, for all the rest rim brakes are fine.
On the Surrey Hills then I would suggest a harder initial braking, but shorter. It seems that this would cause less heat than lower power but longer time. I use Prime pads that came with the wheels, they seems slightly harder and low wear rate.
Of course you survived, we all survived for decades on rim brakes with carbon rims. The difference is that we knew how to use them properly, braking distance, approach and release, and had knowledge of compounds for the pads (Koolstop all day! Every day!) - I don't hate my discs, but I do hate the loss of feel, the weight gain and how bloody ugly they are!
Lol,...with the drought there, the rim brakes should do the trick. But coming from discs and than needing to fall back on these...might feel wacky for sure lol. I can imagine the feel...that isn't there...the trust on the disks...hmmm.. Yes that can be a wake up call of adrenaline and fear lol... What happens when it starts raining...I mean that is when the issues start to be really hitting in...lol.
Yes, I believe it would be almost impossible to adjust to rim brakes coming from hydraulic dics. My Lun Hyper wheels brake well in the rain, considering the carbon surface.
Hi, great advise. I have 2 rim brake bikes and have no intention of switching from my Bianchi as my "good" bike and they look so much better in rim brake format. Did you use TPU inner tubes on this trip? If so had you any issues? I've had varying results with TPU, some manufactures products don't seem to work well with rim brakes even though they claim they're compatible. I'm using the TPU with the carbon Campagnolo WTO if that makes any difference.
Hello, I used RideNow TPU tubes on this trip and I did not have any issues. I was conscious of the rim brakes issues some have reported, but they performed really well.
@@fede1275 Thanks for that. I might go back and try a different batch of RideNow, the original ones cause me issues by dropping pressure overnight on multiple tubes, I may have got a bat batch from Alliexpress. I found Pirelli held up best but they're pricey.
@@MrJwmurphI also tried Pirelli ones, but too expensive to replace if punctured. I noticed you have to be very careful when fitting RideNow and not to pinch the valve sideways when pushing the tyre in. Valves are bit delicate
Rim brakes aren’t a problem, I have rim brakes on my fixed gear. However, on that bike I have aluminium rims. I’ve considered getting carbon wheels but seeing experts that repair carbon say that it’s not a good idea to have carbon rims due to sudden delamination of rim surface and failure, it’s put me off. The first time you find out it fails is when you hit the tarmac. I think I’ll give carbon rims a miss. I have carbon rims on my disc brake bikes though. 😊🤔
Do not forget these carbon experts were all saying 6 or so years ago before disk brakes were eventually allowed in pro cycling that carbon rims are totally safe. You think over the years before disk brakes become the norm, how many people had rode up and down climbs with carbon rims in Mallorca, Spain, Italy, France etc. I could not imagine team sky back in the day doing hill reps then walking back down the mountain with the bikes as the wheels would explode.
Descending like a madman emulating pros in an open road is the problem, not disintegrating rim brakes. You aint a pro, so why descend like them on open roads and brake like crazy? 🤣🤣🤣Discs are for FAT people.
no matter how controverse this topic might be, I just wonder how all the cyclist survived the rides on Mallorca or elsewhere when there was no disc brakes existing on road bikes. I am still alive having ridden rim brake bikes the past 25 years. 🤣 I bet if you ask 10 experts on this matter, you will get 11 opinions on what is seen the better system. In the end the most powerful differentiator sits on the saddle. Nice video Federico 👍
You should try Fred whitton on those rims. People on carbon rim brakes were walking down those descents. Majorca is nothing compared to the lakes descents.
Salut j ai toujours eu du freins sur jante jamais aucun problème sa marche très bien .... le disque c est commercial et renouvellement de technologie pour faire de la vente
Safety first. Cyclists must be always concentrated on the road. Recently we lost our friend during an accident - the bus was taking over some cars on an opposite line and took all the space on the line, all evaded but not him...
They stick disc brakes on even the cheapest entry level bike these days because it sells, in much the same way as shocks and the 24 gears you don't need to commute through town. Looking at it from that aspect rim brakes are actually far more gentle and forgiving, a shame they've become so unpopular these days.
Hahaha, at the wrong side of the road. You’re right, pro riders en amateurs made millions of descents in the past with rim brakes. And they’re not all dead. I think when you’re braking you schould do this on and of (pumping)to cool everything down. Your apexmethode is a smart one. Have nice rides 🤸♀️
'Sa Legobra'... dude you kill me. 🤣 Otherwise, I agree with you on many points. Scrubbing speed early and apexing late is safer and gives greater margin for error, it might be slower but I'd rather not crash and/or be alive than go a couple seconds faster on a decent. One of the things that causes me to avoid group rides and group rides in the mountains is people descending like there is 0% chance of on-coming traffic. I'm not responsible for scraping you out of the grill of a car due to your lack of appropriate caution. And people now have this view that descending on rim brakes is a death sentence... like people haven't been doing that in general for decades and on carbon clinchers for 10-15 years. yes there were some delamination issues in the early carbon clincher years, but I haven't heard of any major problems since the first couple years. Just don't ride the brakes with a death grip for 20min straight.
Absolutely, very well explained. I did not mention it in the videos, but on the first day going to Formentor there was an ambulance attending a cyclist that came off at the end of the descend near the tunnel. He was in a collar, fingers crossed for him. During Sa Calobra we kept hearing sirens and there were fire 4x4 pickups going up and down: rescue team were trying to find a cyclist that came off the road. We need to be careful indeed!
Yes, ride uphill fast and descend safely esp. on open roads. Thats where the discs marketing fails 🤣🤣🤣 bRaKiNg LaTe my A🤣🤣🤣 just encouraging reckless behavior
Let's all very quickly lose all the unhelpful anxieties ! Generations of cyclists have managed to win Paris Roubaix climb Alpe D'Huez and me well cycle to work in Irish weather !! All of us are still alive - there are people very well paid people out there whose only care is to influence you to buy buy buy and will tell you your wont be happy or safe or comfortable without this or that new product !
Lol, how long did professional riders use rim breaks for? 100% safe and no problem descending. Bikes are becoming MTB now. Rim breakes are perfect for fast descending. Great video by the way!!
Yes, as long as we understand the limitations 😀. I can see the benefit os discs, especially for the lever fatigue, but they also need to be understood properly.
@@fede1275 I have both disc and rim..only benefit of disc in my opinion is in wet weather on fast descents. I don't ride in the rain though so a non issue for me personally. If you do a lot of fast wet weather riding, sure disc may be the better choice. For dry conditions I have never felt like rim breaks were not enough stopping power. Also much lighter and maintenance free.
@@fede1275 if it's a question of safety in wet for you then disc 100% I just don't like them for dry weather climbing. I do a lot of climbing and it's a disadvantage with the extra weight.
Hypothetical. If disc brake tech existed before rim brakes, people would be complaining about the braking performance of rim and never switch. It would be a hard sell.... save small amount of weight for poorer braking. I don't think so.
Disc brakes are more powerful and get locked up easy in a stressful situation. They are too strong for so light bikes, inertia is also present and very dangerous if not calculated
@@fede1275 that’s a fact, also anti locking sensors will be placed on the brakes. More weird gear, more business and parts to be replaced. Anyway, we keep on cycling! 💪🏼💪🏼💪🏼
Nothing wrong with rim brakes on Road Bikes what so ever. Look back through history . Stick some quality alloy rims on if you are worried about carbon.. Discs for dirt . Rim for Road . .
Unsurprisingly: Yes. If rim brakes were good enough to race until the 2010s, how should they not be for a *holiday* trip on Mallorca? With traffic and average technical abilities, you'll be riding way below what has been safely done on rim brake bikes before, so "surviving" casual riding is a bit of a clickbaity title. It's a bit of a shame that people who started riding on disc brakes perhaps think it was a ride on a cannonball. No, it absolutely isn't ... even 20 year old bikes with fresh pads and intact braking surfaces stop absolutely fine and I would assume getting at the material's limit is hard enough even with rim brakes. It might be that it is easier to cook rim brakes if you mistreat them on 20k alpine descent but I'd say that's more of a problem with your technique than technology.
@@fede1275 Yeah, please don't take it as a offense, the video was an excellent dive into the topic from a practical perspective. Marketing (and marketing-driven media) is just overweighing the advantages of disc brakes for most riders. I ride for serveral years and due to market availability my next bike will be disc but I've never had a situation where I felt unsafe or couldn't stop with my rim brake bikes, except when I was too lazy about wear and maintenance in the early days... 😜
![Eminem - Fuel (feat. JID) [Official Lyric Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/t5H_CewqpKA/mqdefault.jpg)
For decades rim brakes were good enough, why should they be bad now? No matter if rim brakes, disc brakes or any other technical equipment ... we are always responsible for the way how we use them.
Unfortunately that`s more and more what people are not willing to accept ... in any situation.
Exactly this. Have been on rim brakes myself for twenty years and they were good enough. Now on disc brakes, I feel like they are better but I ride my bike the same way I used to do with rim brakes.
Rim brakes are great with alloy wheels. I still use them. The problem is the industry wants to sell carbon wheels. When you do long mountain descents I wouldn't trust rim brakes on carbon wheels personally.
@@hcw199exactly this…
Never rode down a steep mountain at speed with rim brakes in the rain. Never considered them "good enough" for that. Also remember a crash in the snow. YMMV.
@@hcw199 The worst kept secret is that carbon was delaminating under some riders (which one could argue lacked common sense to manage glazing/melting/modulation on pads) and it became cheaper for manufacturers to push discs instead of producing better rim compounds. They're making more money now, not having to worry about delaminating. This was all to make the life of rim manufacturers much more comfortable, with marginal gains to riders.
I treated my self with an S-Works Tarmac SL6, back then I had the choice to go Disc or stay Rim. I chose rim. Glad I did after seeing all the stuff my buddies have to deal with. Bent rotors, bleeding kits, squeaking, pinging noises… i love the simplicity of rim brakes and hope it never goes away
Great bike, possibly peak road bike performance!
I've used rim and disc brake bikes on all types of terrain and weather conditions. The most important thing is understanding both your limits and the machine you're riding. All of my bikes handle differently and require a different input from me.
For rim brakes I prefer a softer brake compound for better braking ability such as offered by KoolStop.
Yes, absolutely!
I use those also
I think you’re quite right about the fact regarding the reliance on technology rather than technique which comes from experience.
I’ve found SwissStop pads to be the the most effective, maybe worth a try when the Prime pads are worn.
campagnolo red pads for carbon rims are very good too ... available for campagnolo brakes or shimano brakes ( different reference then )
@@pennetierphilippe8529agreed! I use both the Campagnolo and SwissStop pads and they are absolute fine
Very balanced video mate, comes down to personal preference whether you run rim or disc. Thanks for not selling out like other channels saying you need disc, truth is rim brake is enough. It worked fine for decades. Have a good weekend
Danny from Strava
Yes, absolutely. I’m also happy for the praise given to new technology, as long as it is balanced and relevant.
Rode my old rim brake Cervelo in Mallorca last summer. Isolated I would say i had no problem with my rim brakes. But on one ride i met a local Mallorcan cyclist and a very good British amateur racer. All was good untill we started the decent to Pollenca. They were on discs and I was on rim. Even though I had aluminum rims (dura ace c24) the pads felt like chewing gum. I think disc brakes allow you to get of the brakes faster and that way get more time to cool between corners. I had to brake earlyer and deeper into the corners compared to the guys on discs. This was only a problem in a short part of the decent but still very noticeable and anerving.
Of course. If I were racing downhill I would go discs maybe. I prefer to accept the limitations descending and keep the benefits of a lighter and more responsive bike for my budget.
@@fede1275 We older guys need to keep the rim brake bikes alive!
Nicely done. Modern rim brakes are good in my book. Much better than the ones I learnt on in my youth with steel rims in the wet. Like you driving high performance cars without ABS or any skid control let you learn how to work on the limits of physics, rather than technology.
I also learnt to shoot on film and process my images. And today, using my digital cameras, I shoot RAW and manual. Those old skills still very relevant.
My current bikes do have disc brakes, but that was due to what was available when I got back into cycling again. Loved the LEGO props. 👌
I remember descending from a bridge in a city on steel rims in the rain when I was just lucky no cars were coming at the next crossing as I wasn't able to stop. 😂
OK, you are a man that thinks the same as I do but you put it in a very eloquent and reasoned way. What I cannot seem to get across to the disc brake crowd, is that a rim brake is a disc brake. There were never any problems as long as the rim was steel or aluminum. Of course, as soon as manufacturers started to produce full carbon wheels, they found out very quickly that bonding an aluminum brake track was either difficult or expensive. Obviously, it is not impossible because snow skis have had metal edges bonded to the plastic for years without issue. Disc brakes free up the wheel manufacturer from having to think about the problems of providing a brake track. Now, on modern disc brake equipped bikes, you have a very thin and delicate disc that can be damaged and warped. I do not think it is quite so easy to widen the pad spacing as on a rim brake so you can still get home if you happen to crash and bend your wheel. I am no longer in the condition to race so there is zero motivation to buy a modern bike. If I really felt the need, I would buy a modern drive train with a wider gear ratio to install on my old bikes.
Refreshing commentary! I like your idea of braking before turning more sharply coming through the corner, and then exiting in a straighter line. Technique, tricks that make riding fun, seems to be overlooked by enthusiasts in favor of more abstract issues such as training schedules, power meters, and mileage goals. What's fun in that? It's true rim brakes aren't as powerful as disc brakes, just grip harder, never brake in the turn, and it's all good!
BTW, plain old aluminum rims modulate speed nicely and don't warp like discs or heat up as much. I've heard stories of discs getting so hot, they melt all the lube in the axle. Your insight is right on. Don't ride the brakes, whether rims or discs. The brakes won't fade nor the pads wear down as fast. Mountain descents show ya where it's at.
Thanks Paul, great feedback!!
Another great video Federico! Lots of good advice there. At the end of the day, cyclists all over Europe have been descending technical mountain roads for a very long time. Until 3/4 years ago, everyone had rim brakes! Personally I climbed and descended over 100,000m last year in the south of France on a rim brake bike. Some of the descents I regularly do are very fast and technical coming from 2,000m down to sea level. At no point have I ever felt I didn’t have the braking I needed. I don’t ride carbon wheels though. Aluminium Hunt Race Aero Wides which are about 1400g the pair from memory, a great match to my Emonda SL6, less than 8kg. Rim brakes well set up, good wheels and pads are all you ever need! Keep the excellent videos coming and glad you enjoyed Mallorca!
Thank you, Mallorca was really a dream!!
Glad to hear your trip was a success. For next time just get some decent alloy wheels like a DT Swiss DiCut Oxi, lightweight and the brakes work amazing and your descending confidence will skyrocket. You don't need carbon wheels like you don't need disc brakes.
Carbon wheel maintain the speed so much better, they are addictive!
@@fede1275 don't think you'll feel any difference while climbing and one barely pedals on descents. Psycological difference, maybe, but again you can't see your wheels while riding. The deeper wheels 'may' make a difference on the flats but no one goes to Mallorca for the flats, lol.
@@cosinus_square maybe not while climbing, but my friends insisted on 42Km/h chaingang going back to the finca every day 😅
Your experience feedback is very interesting Federico, thanks for sharing it. For years, i was conviced that Rim brakes were enough and disc brakes wasn't needed as it add weight, cost and additionnal maintenance on the bikes. I changed my mind recently because there is an argument that close the debate (even i still like rim brakes and disc brakes could be a source of issues like brake freezing) : the safety argument! Indeed, i think disc brakes are much more efficient in case of emergency use. Beside that, yes rim brakes use are all about anticipation, braking power management as you mentionned well. The braking surface quality on carbon wheels could be a "heating" factor considering the use with a lot of elevation. High slope contributes some additionnal heating too. Simon.
Disc brakes on the bicycles might be too much though. You hit a pothole and you suddenly apply too much brake force. You get a dose of adrenaline and you suddenly squeeze brakes too much. It starts to rain and you can easily apply to much brake force with one flick of a finger. To me it feels like I would drive Renault Clio instead of a race car with firm controls.
I would also argue that there are more accidents in bicycle races since mass adoption of disc brakes.
I’m off to Viarreggio in June, this is really useful. Loved the Lego Diorama 😊
Your braking capacity is defined by the friction between the wheel and road. Both rim and disc brakes can lock up the wheel effectively. Therefore, disc brakes, which are heavier, harder to service and more expensive, are an unnecessary complexity.
Well, were you running you hookless 38mm at 4 psi for more stopping power. I love road bike themed comfort bikes 😂
Your conclusion is wrong because "being able to lock the wheels" (which both can do) is not a good metric for a braking system.
@@matteo.ceriotti Explain mate. You sound dumb
@@matteo.ceriotti Explain mate. You sound dumb
They allow for wider tires which can both reduce rolling resistance (lower pressure) and increase braking friction.
As Clint Eastwood in the 1973 movie “Magnum Force” appropriately says “A man's got to know his limitations” 🙂
Love your videos Federico.
This "made my day" 😄
Ciao Federico
Another excellent video.👍🏻
I agree with you, I think the rim/disc argument is fairly mute now. You pay the money, you take the choice, no matter what the “industry” says. Rims are lovely and light going up hill and easy to fix, but not so great in the wet. Discs are great in the wet but can be heavy and are virtually impossible to fix on the road side. People should just buy the bike they want and shut up and enjoy the ride!
Alla prossima.
Ciao amico mio
Grazie mille!!
it's not that simple, I want a brand new rim brake road bike with dura ace preferably. I cant get one! and I dont want to build my own bike I don't know how and I dont want second hand because i have no idea what I am buying.
I'm a good descender as I've always liked speed. Knowing when to brake and ones line is important to keep in control. Very easy to overcook unfamiliar corners which can unexpectedly hook around further than the entry suggests. I nearly crashed a few months back while racing because of this. I assumed the downhill corner wasn't as sharp as it was (exit hidden by foliage) so very lucky to be able to run wide and rub off speed before hitting the ditch(which I missed with inches to spare).
Huge respect riding those descents with carbon rim brake wheels. I am too unskilled or maybe just worried too much about delamination. Hope one day i will get there.
Great video again. Glad to see you had a great time on the island.
It's not a problem. Mallorca's hills aren't steep or long enough to pose a problem & neither are alpine hills to be honest. I've used carbon clinchers in both cases, modern wheels are quite advanced compared with 15 years ago.
Thank you. Might give it a try on my next ride there as well 🫶
I have to say that my new Winspace 23 Hyper R45 braking is amazing. The grooved brake track also worked really well in the wet.
@@fede1275 thats great to hear. Some years ago i want out on a rainy ride with some cheap carbon rim brake wheels. Did just slide thru as if i would not have any brakes. Since then i avoided rain with rim brakes. Sounds like i might want to give them another chance with some modern wheels.
keep buying what they are selling,10 speed 105 rim brake for life,baby!!!
I never rode a bike with disc brakes so far, but I can say that my 10 speed ultegra rim brakes coupled with aluminium wheels are always enough to stop safely. And I weigh 82 kg and ride a 9kg bike. In all honesty, the few times I found myself in uncomfortable situations it was because of my misjudgement or excessive confidence. We'll see how it goes when I'll finally purchase a more modern bike with disc brakes, but before pulling the trigger I want a higher FTP 😂. Anyway, excellent piece of advice about the braking technique!! Bravissimo e continua così 😃
Grazie mille!
The newer high temperature resins they use in a lot of carbon rims now compared to 5 to10yrs ago means less chance of delamination. But always good to check. I delaminated(just the brake track luckily) a carbon rim on a long straight descent with a sharp corner at bottom. 85 to 30kph in 10 to 15seconds. My heavier friend on a more expensive carbon rim wheelset I was following was fine. The replacement rim was a high temp resin and no more issues. However I usually take my training bike with the alloy wheelset when riding lots of hills as braking is excellent.
I realise that and I'm careful descending, I am not racing anyone going down
Great video, my disc brake bike is back in the shop 3rd time now, so for the last week I've been riding my aluminium rim brake bike and I totally forgot how much you have to be alert but the bike feels lighter and disc's definitely give people a false sense of security.
Definitely it's a different way of riding, yes
Nice video! loved all your points, nice using photography as example. I remember in 1975, at a bikeshop, a guy came in to tell the owner the brakes on his son's roadbike was set too good, he went over the bars braking too hard! I still use a 1954 Leica M3, used for over 100 weddings, own 7 bikes, one a disc gravel, with 3 sets of carbon wheels, one just learn how to use the technology.
Wow, Leica M3, what a masterpiece. Used to capture maybe the most iconic portrait ever.
Hello Federico, I would recommend watching peak torques latest video. His disk failed on him, very interesting to see for myself because I’m very pro rim brakes
Will have a look, I love his channel!
Good video mate, with solid demonstrations! Love the Lego..😀
When it comes to carrying speed into a corner, the saying “slow in, equals fast out” works whether you’re on a bicycle, motorbike, or car.
And the late turn-in is just the cherry on top of the cake💪.
Cheers
Yes, I believe it is the safest technique
Gracias Federico !! ⭐️🚲⭐️🚲⭐️
Great photos shown throughout the video, love it
Thank you, I believe this was from Paul at Moloko Cycling
oh wow I did not expect the Lego demonstration it was perfect! The late turn in and early exit is exactly what I do on blind corners especially, unless I know the corner and can perfectly see the exit.
I agree, I drive and ride a lot of old school cars and motorbikes, and I love the old school feel of the shifters and carburetors.
however I’m not going back after electronic fuel injection just like I’m all sold on hydraulic disc brakes. i’m a very heavy 200+lbs rider and the difference is huge, especially on the aforementioned long mountain descents that I do a lot of.
all of the rest of my vehicles are disc brakes 🎉 why not the road bike? if I flew a lot with my bicycle that might be a factor however.
Yes, I understand your point!
This year was our first bike trip to Mallorca and I can say two things:
1. Rim brakes are plenty enough. Good pads, good breaking surface and quality parts in general and you're good to go. 70-80 km/h speeds and we're still here to tell the stories ;)
2. Mallorca withdrawal syndrome is real and even after over 4 months I still think about those roads. And people, they are absolutely great to cyclist!
Very true!! I can't stop dreaming about it! Already re-booked...
@@fede1275 we're definitely coming back next year. Sure, Cap de Formentor and Sa Calobra are great, but the roads between Valldemossa, Puigpunyent and Calvia were incredible, and definitely less people than those most famous destinations.
@@kitka1990 absolutely, the West Coast ride and back to Andratx was probably the best ride I have ever done.
Federico, are you trying to convince us this bike is ... USED?!?!? This looks as clean as when its unboxed! I cant remember when my 105 calipers look as clean and shiny as yours!
You must be very meticulous in your cleaning routine, i would love to see a video of how you take care of your bike :)
As a rim brake user living in a hilly area, i never had an issue with the rims brakes performance, but as a precaution i do take it easier in the hot days, always have the overheating factor at the back of my head.
Hahah, I had it cleaned properly! I try to do a full wash only if really needed after a gritty ride, otherwise wet wipes are very good. You are right, we always need to keep in mind the overheating danger and act accordingly.
A great video and definitely agree. I’ve still stayed on rim brakes still. I just not had the chance to get out and try some long descending yet. One day. 😁
Well done, your video. Solid info on corners and how to negotiate them. I, too, have a ractrack background with motos and a very fast Porsche. Keeping the brake temperature down by alternating front and rear is one I've used with my carbon rims. Late turn in is smart, especially when on strange descents and short sight lines.
I ride very long steep routes in the Western US.
Disc brake heating IS a problem on all types of vehicles. Heat warped discs cause erratic demands on tire traction. As one nears the end of a long steep descent the disc brakes are going to be different than on a flat road.
I'm not certain but I think rim brakes are actually easier to modulate. I know they are certainly simpler.
When I raced my car, brake compound selection was important and different, depending on the track. I had to change my brake fluid every few races or risk complete fade due to the moisture creating steam in the brake lines. Same on my track motorcycles.
I think I'll stay with my rim brakes that have served me very well. Until I need another bike and I can't find one with rims.
Great input, especially coming from such an in depth experience!
Love your tips
Great video. I have the same fears. It's how I would approach it too. I'm happy to see that decent technique and common sense is enough. Of course pros used rim brakes forever, but in the back of my mind I heard a voice saying, "yes, but their skills are through the roof and they ride on closed circuits. You sre not like they are, you shoukd not do this" And of course, as you say, one can also overheat disc brakes. My other big problem is I live 120 km from anything that could be considered a hill.
I have both types of bikes: a Canyon Ultimate with carbon rim brakes and a newer Aeroad. Disc brakes offer superior stopping power, providing a wider safety margin for a fast yet safe ride on open roads. I've also used alloy rim brakes in Gran Canaria's challenging inclines, which were adequate (slightly less effective than disc brakes but better than carbon rim brakes). Adjusting your riding style to your brakes is crucial. With carbon rim brakes, gaining too much speed and braking harder for longer audibly seems to stress the rims, but they have been fine so far upon inspection. Carbon rim brakes do have the longest braking path. Overheating hasn't been an issue with any brakes, as short, sharp braking before curves and then rolling through bends with minimal adjustments at most are optimal. However, disc brakes can be a lifesaver on unknown roads, as I learned from a crash with wet, sandy alloy rim brakes after a tropical storm. Rim brakes lose significant stopping power on wet, steep declines, necessitating cautious riding. Knowing your brakes and adjusting your riding accordingly is key. Ultimately I prefer disc brakes for a ride that suits my speedy style yet is still within a cautious safety margin.
Good analysis. I still prefer the benefit of the lightweight rim brake bike together with the characteristics of the brakes. I try to be considerate when descending, but I understand what you mean.
Some great images from your trip. Looks like you had a great time.
I ride rim brake and run the same prime wheels as you. I did the Fred Whitton recently so I changed back to my aluminium wheels to remove the worry of overheating carbon brake tracks. I am sure the carbon wheels would have survived but, like you, I have been worried by comments in online forums and the like.
I see that you're still using the pads that come packaged with the wheels. I changed mine out to swissstop black prince and couldn't quite believe the improvement in feel and stopping power.
Yes, and on top of that I am riding RideNow TPU tubes, they are marked as rim compatible, but again there are fears on overheating them. They also worked very well. I kept the Prime pads as the wear rate is really good and I am happy with the braking. I will think about the black prince, a friend had them and from the wear they seem softer. Thanks for the feedback, they could be an option to improve the braking power.
Interesting, I have ridden in Majorca quite a bit and it is fantastic. I have also come to pretty much come to the same conclusion. Hard braking before the corner, off the brakes, turn in late, being ready to feather brake if the corner radius tightens up. But as you say a benefiit of turning in late is that in the vast majority or cases yous can see the exit. Thanks.
Yes, safest line in my opinion
Just like sex, safety sells bikes. I have never heard a salesperson give a balanced argument against disc brakes, as that works against their business model.
That is why rim brakes, like manual cars, will never go away. They will just be appreciated by a smaller percentage of the sport.
Thanks for the summary and also for your content. I appreciate the honest and thoughtful approach to your topics.
Good points!!
safety? you mean inexperience 🤣🤣🤣
😄 👍 really nice and interesting another video
Very nice video - helpful advices!
Easier to deal with in the bike bag, dont need to worry about bending, contamination, putting in the pad blocks if the wheel is removed etc. Having sportbike experience I'm sure you can brake along side any disc bike knowing how to set up for turns coming in fast and modulating heat 🤙
Yes, getting the bike into the bag was very easy!
That mini road hahaha this is brilliant!
😄😄
I trust snd more confidence with rim brake Takk!
According to the comments section of certain publications us rim brake riders just instantly wreck as soon as we get to anything downhill some absolute marketing nonsense being peddled.
Thank you for this video. I’m spending time in South Tirol near Bolzano. I have recently bought a sporting gravel bike with disc brakes from 3T. I a riding the same roads as with my Rim brake Pinarello. I’m finding no real difference in the brakes and the braking ability. Swiss stop Carbon rim pads with Vision 55 carbon wheels are giving me a similar braking performance as SRAM Force Discs. I do agree, that experience does play a role too . About 35 years on rim brakes and a few months on discs, I think there is a lot of hype about discs. 😉
Very true. I'm finding the braking to be very good on the Vision, slight edge on the Prime. Maybe next year I'll try them in Mallorca instead.
@@fede1275 I also use Prologo Grimpeur rim brake wheels. But have not used them with high speed braking. They have a profiled braking surface which I wonder in dry conditions if more heat is developed…
@@tobimaxx maybe also pad wear is increased?
@@fede1275 We will see😉
The Italian shop I bought my Pinarello DogmaF8 new old stock rim brake frame, I took my 3t gravel bike for a service. Got chatting to the owner about brake performance as I personally could not see a great difference. He admitted that he thought that there was little difference and that it was the industry pushing disk brakes. Frame builders not making frames and rim brake parts becoming more difficult to obtain..
In the "olden days", cyclists only rode on flat terrain or only did climbs. No descending, EVER. You know.....because of rim brakes.
Yes, I believe there are still some old school cyclists stuck on the Stelvio, unable to come down...
Does that mean they walked down . duh
9 months later :)
(yeah i subscribed recently and enjoying your videos!)
I grew up in Portugal, near "serra da estrela" mountains.. used to go up there on my 90's 3x6 or 3x7 MTB.. 6.000 feet up.. No fancy gear, just rimbrakes, what we called "horseshoe" type, and for those who could afford, cantilever brakes. No fancy disc or hydraulics (at least that we could afford!)
Coming down wasn't just one time tat i had to put my shoe against the rear tyre to slow down enough :) Was "funny" getting back home with a hole on my shoe.
Point is... know your gear, its strengths and its limitations.. and operate within its operational envelope.
Rim brakes suck for people that want to operate them outside their performance envelope...
For me, Roadwise, give me a Emonda SL4 rim brake with even dirt cheap madspeed7 alloys and i will be happier than with a modern disc bike :)
MTB-Wise.... nahh, disc it is! :)
Thanks for your video!
Very well said!!
Pros get paid to descend fast, but more to the point, they get paid to use the bikes they're given. The bikes they're given have disk brakes because that's what bike makers are pushing. People argue that rim brake road bikes sales are down, proving riders want disk brakes, but the sales figures are mostly due to rim brake road bike availability being down. Bike makers can't rack up sales for a product they no longer produce, right? In the region where I ride, long road descents are quite rare, so properly maintained and adjusted rim brakes are perfectly fine. They're simpler, easier to maintain, lighter, less expensive, more aerodynamically efficient, and much harder to unintentionally lock up than disk brakes. What advantage does that leave for disk brakes on a road bike?
I am with you, but unfortunately somehow the industry realised the majority of riders wanted discs and they made also the pros to switch. The reality is that the business cannot cope to maintaining both standards and it's a pity
@@fede1275 Did riders' desire for disk brakes come first, or did the industry and social media push for disk brakes come first?
@@rangersmith4652 I guess the request came from riders with the bigger spending power, so the industry quickly adjusted and went with the money
@@fede1275 That sounds about right.
You hit the nail
It’s mostly marketing! I have rim brakes on my road bike (Campa Super Record) and TT bike (Campa Record Direct Mount) and with both of them I can completely block the wheels with one finger, even on dry roads. The limiting factor with modern brakes (no matter what type of) is always the tyre/road contact (and the courage of the rider, btw; many riders never experienced the capability of their brakes because of the fear to go over the frontwheel…) and no brake can alter this
Indeed, that is why there is all this push for wider tyres, to cater for the hydro disc power...
For the majority I sense a move back to Rim brakes on the basis of diy maintenance and utility.
I hope, but I feel the majority is happy with discs and it's okay. I wish the industry could offer more differentiation.
Ecxellent! TY. what type of travel case is that?
I rented a bike box Alan, my Ultimate large fitted very well. I did not remove the rear derailleur, it felt very secure.
thats cool the lego thats old i had that when i was young great visuals hahaha brings back memory,s and you have a smal bicycle great vid savety first and both are good but rims earley brake no problem they did it 25 yours ago and if you got disc if it is not good instakled i heard a moter cycle if the niple breaks and the fluid runs out it wil eats youre discpads and this is bad on the motorcycle
Great video Federico. Can I ask what brake pads you use? I think you have carbon rims.
Thank you, they are Prime carbon rims pads that came with the wheels, I only used these and performed very well.
Love both but I favor disk for safety, if I know it’s a climb only then rim all the way
For decades rim brakes were all people had - pros and amatuers alike.
And we all made do.
Are disk brakes better? Yes.
It's a similar discussion to ABS on motorcycles.
Is it better to have disks/ABS to lean on in a 'oh no' situation? Yes. It will save you. And sometimes those situations are unavoidable, no matter how much you try to pre-plan it.
But does that mean that you can't do certain things because you don't have disks? No.
My road bike has rims and the only time I have ever felt them to be totally inadequate was during a ride in Devon down some very, seriously steep hills. Frankly it was utterly terrifying.
But that ride also had very long, fast and sweeping decents, and I didn't have any worries about my brakes. I was able to maintain my speed, and maintain control just fine.
Ultimately disks, in my experience, are better. But they will only make a difference in the tiny minority of the time. Just like ABS.
I can agree with you that discs are better, but I am not sure if the margin of improvement is as big as the ABS introduction on both cars and bikes. My fear is there is an element of over-estimating discs "betterness" on road bikes.
@@fede1275 Certainly not a totally equal comparison, but as close as I could think of at the time.
ABS on bikes was revolutionary to safety and saved thousands and thousands of people from crashing, undoubtedly.
To your latter comment, I think it's a person's magpie tendency for shiny and new things. Disks are the shiny and new and people want them.
Nice video! I am quite sensitive to the topic, having a rim brake bike with carbon wheels and being about 85 kg.I found that the braking in the Surrey Hills descent is way more challenging for me because of the steep descents (>10%), narrow lanes, etc. I smell quite often burning pads.
On the other hand, when I ride in Sardina (I imagine similar descends as in Majorca) I feel super confident with rim brakes, because of the larger roads and less steep gradients (< 10%). It is important to say that I have there a rim brake bike with alloy wheels though.
Summing up, it is true that disc brakes give you better breaking on steep descends, for all the rest rim brakes are fine.
btw, which pads are you using? Mine seems butter
On the Surrey Hills then I would suggest a harder initial braking, but shorter. It seems that this would cause less heat than lower power but longer time. I use Prime pads that came with the wheels, they seems slightly harder and low wear rate.
@@fede1275 yes I'll try next time, another technique recommended is the pumping brake technique, alternating front and rear brake pressure
@@mighelone I do always brake with both and adjust the pressure from front and rear. It feels odd to just do front or rear to me.
Hello, hope you are doing well. Can you pls tell me where did you purchased the front light? and the bike computer holder?
Thank you
Hi, the front light is an Exposure Trace. The mount is a straight carbon one I got from Aliexpress, to fit the bars with 2 inline bolts.
Thank you :)@@fede1275
Would you mind sending the link for both products?@@fede1275
I never had any issues with overheating with disc brakes. Also, you can get a bigger disc to dissipate more heating if needed.
you aint riding enough mate 🤣🤣🤣🤣 bigger discs? you mean Rim Brakes? 🤣🤣🤣
May I ask how much you weigh and what kind of descends (distance and percentage) you ride, so you never had any issues with discs?
Of course you survived, we all survived for decades on rim brakes with carbon rims. The difference is that we knew how to use them properly, braking distance, approach and release, and had knowledge of compounds for the pads (Koolstop all day! Every day!) - I don't hate my discs, but I do hate the loss of feel, the weight gain and how bloody ugly they are!
Understandable!
Lol,...with the drought there, the rim brakes should do the trick. But coming from discs and than needing to fall back on these...might feel wacky for sure lol. I can imagine the feel...that isn't there...the trust on the disks...hmmm.. Yes that can be a wake up call of adrenaline and fear lol... What happens when it starts raining...I mean that is when the issues start to be really hitting in...lol.
Yes, I believe it would be almost impossible to adjust to rim brakes coming from hydraulic dics. My Lun Hyper wheels brake well in the rain, considering the carbon surface.
I actually think the power of disc brakes with 25 or 28mm tyres is somewhat disconcerting!
Yes, tyre patch is small for that power.
Disc brakes is a practical example of the Peter principle where the marketing department were allowed to design bikes.
Hi, great advise. I have 2 rim brake bikes and have no intention of switching from my Bianchi as my "good" bike and they look so much better in rim brake format.
Did you use TPU inner tubes on this trip? If so had you any issues? I've had varying results with TPU, some manufactures products don't seem to work well with rim brakes even though they claim they're compatible. I'm using the TPU with the carbon Campagnolo WTO if that makes any difference.
Hello, I used RideNow TPU tubes on this trip and I did not have any issues. I was conscious of the rim brakes issues some have reported, but they performed really well.
@@fede1275 Thanks for that. I might go back and try a different batch of RideNow, the original ones cause me issues by dropping pressure overnight on multiple tubes, I may have got a bat batch from Alliexpress. I found Pirelli held up best but they're pricey.
@@MrJwmurphI also tried Pirelli ones, but too expensive to replace if punctured. I noticed you have to be very careful when fitting RideNow and not to pinch the valve sideways when pushing the tyre in. Valves are bit delicate
i use rim brakes with stainless steel rims, doesn't wear (rims) and somewhere between alloy and chrome in the wet.
Great video. I had also some
concerns about taking my carbon wheel bike to the alps, but now I feel more confident. How heavy are you, if I may ask?
Around 86Kg or 87Kg depending on the pasta I had the night before 😄
@@fede1275
We have some similarities 😀
Common sense old school which applies to day slower in faster out thank you DD.
Absolutely 👍
Rim brakes aren’t a problem, I have rim brakes on my fixed gear. However, on that bike I have aluminium rims. I’ve considered getting carbon wheels but seeing experts that repair carbon say that it’s not a good idea to have carbon rims due to sudden delamination of rim surface and failure, it’s put me off.
The first time you find out it fails is when you hit the tarmac. I think I’ll give carbon rims a miss. I have carbon rims on my disc brake bikes though.
😊🤔
Do not forget these carbon experts were all saying 6 or so years ago before disk brakes were eventually allowed in pro cycling that carbon rims are totally safe. You think over the years before disk brakes become the norm, how many people had rode up and down climbs with carbon rims in Mallorca, Spain, Italy, France etc. I could not imagine team sky back in the day doing hill reps then walking back down the mountain with the bikes as the wheels would explode.
It is true that discs became very popular due to the introduction of carbon wheels.
Good point on the Sky - Ineos team!
Descending like a madman emulating pros in an open road is the problem, not disintegrating rim brakes. You aint a pro, so why descend like them on open roads and brake like crazy? 🤣🤣🤣Discs are for FAT people.
no matter how controverse this topic might be, I just wonder how all the cyclist survived the rides on Mallorca or elsewhere when there was no disc brakes existing on road bikes. I am still alive having ridden rim brake bikes the past 25 years. 🤣 I bet if you ask 10 experts on this matter, you will get 11 opinions on what is seen the better system. In the end the most powerful differentiator sits on the saddle. Nice video Federico 👍
Thank you! Above all understanding how and where to brake is still essential no matter what system we are using!
@@fede1275 wise words. could not be worded any better. stay safe 👍
You should try Fred whitton on those rims. People on carbon rim brakes were walking down those descents. Majorca is nothing compared to the lakes descents.
Maybe if I ever do Fred Whitton I will rent a disc bike and use mine for everything else
Rim brakes have been fine for how long? Ride what you like and own.
Long live rim brakes. I rode the Mt Ventoux on rim brakes
Absolutely! Would love to ride Mount Ventoux!
I survived 40 odd years on rim brakes and I'm still using them now...............and so far surviving.
👍👍
It's been done before. I imagine it will be done again. No big deal.
Salut j ai toujours eu du freins sur jante jamais aucun problème sa marche très bien .... le disque c est commercial et renouvellement de technologie pour faire de la vente
Safety first. Cyclists must be always concentrated on the road. Recently we lost our friend during an accident - the bus was taking over some cars on an opposite line and took all the space on the line, all evaded but not him...
@@vadymvv so sorry to hear that, my condolences
They stick disc brakes on even the cheapest entry level bike these days because it sells, in much the same way as shocks and the 24 gears you don't need to commute through town. Looking at it from that aspect rim brakes are actually far more gentle and forgiving, a shame they've become so unpopular these days.
Hahaha, at the wrong side of the road.
You’re right, pro riders en amateurs made millions of descents in the past with rim brakes. And they’re not all dead. I think when you’re braking you schould do this on and of (pumping)to cool everything down. Your apexmethode is a smart one. Have nice rides 🤸♀️
I am glad it made sense!!
@@fede1275 like your realistic,calm approach in the brake discussion ( which we’ve already lost)) .
Fast bikes, fast cars, sun kissed locations! how your not the next James Bond will be a travesty of injustice.
I do have Martini in my bottles 😂😂
That disc brake lever problem would only happen with old brake fluid or a system leak.
This was a new model Ultimate, rented in Mallorca. It happened after 2 days he had it and it was fine after the shop bled the fluid.
You just described motorcycle braking :)
@@donuthole7236 I guess braking is braking 😀. And yes, I used to ride a motorbike
'Sa Legobra'... dude you kill me. 🤣 Otherwise, I agree with you on many points. Scrubbing speed early and apexing late is safer and gives greater margin for error, it might be slower but I'd rather not crash and/or be alive than go a couple seconds faster on a decent. One of the things that causes me to avoid group rides and group rides in the mountains is people descending like there is 0% chance of on-coming traffic. I'm not responsible for scraping you out of the grill of a car due to your lack of appropriate caution. And people now have this view that descending on rim brakes is a death sentence... like people haven't been doing that in general for decades and on carbon clinchers for 10-15 years. yes there were some delamination issues in the early carbon clincher years, but I haven't heard of any major problems since the first couple years. Just don't ride the brakes with a death grip for 20min straight.
Absolutely, very well explained. I did not mention it in the videos, but on the first day going to Formentor there was an ambulance attending a cyclist that came off at the end of the descend near the tunnel. He was in a collar, fingers crossed for him. During Sa Calobra we kept hearing sirens and there were fire 4x4 pickups going up and down: rescue team were trying to find a cyclist that came off the road. We need to be careful indeed!
Yes, ride uphill fast and descend safely esp. on open roads. Thats where the discs marketing fails 🤣🤣🤣 bRaKiNg LaTe my A🤣🤣🤣 just encouraging reckless behavior
@@laurenceraygatchalian6108 yes, it's safer to use the same approach to the bend, regardless of the type of brakes. The tyre patch is narrow enough.
I have a reliant robin shoe brakes (no disc) and only three Wheels 😂😂😂
Let's all very quickly lose all the unhelpful anxieties !
Generations of cyclists have managed to win Paris Roubaix climb Alpe D'Huez and me well cycle to work in Irish weather !!
All of us are still alive - there are people very well paid people out there whose only care is to influence you to buy buy buy and will tell you your wont be happy or safe or comfortable without this or that new product !
What bike is that?
Mine is a Canyon Ultimate CF SL 7 rim brakes, the one with discs was the new model Ultimate CF SLX
@@fede1275 cool❤. it looks like Polygon Stratos S5.
@@oldschool9449 similar design, yes
Lol, how long did professional riders use rim breaks for? 100% safe and no problem descending. Bikes are becoming MTB now. Rim breakes are perfect for fast descending. Great video by the way!!
Yes, as long as we understand the limitations 😀. I can see the benefit os discs, especially for the lever fatigue, but they also need to be understood properly.
@@fede1275 I have both disc and rim..only benefit of disc in my opinion is in wet weather on fast descents. I don't ride in the rain though so a non issue for me personally. If you do a lot of fast wet weather riding, sure disc may be the better choice. For dry conditions I have never felt like rim breaks were not enough stopping power. Also much lighter and maintenance free.
@@MarcraM82 I am in the exact same situation!
@@fede1275 if it's a question of safety in wet for you then disc 100%
I just don't like them for dry weather climbing. I do a lot of climbing and it's a disadvantage with the extra weight.
@@MarcraM82 I now use rim brakes with alloy wheels for the wet commute. I try not to go out on a ride if it's going to rain for sure
Hypothetical. If disc brake tech existed before rim brakes, people would be complaining about the braking performance of rim and never switch. It would be a hard sell.... save small amount of weight for poorer braking. I don't think so.
Who knows, let’s see if it happens 😃
Disc brakes are more powerful and get locked up easy in a stressful situation. They are too strong for so light bikes, inertia is also present and very dangerous if not calculated
I do agree, however it seems that the majority of the users like the lighter lever action and the market has decided for us.
@@fede1275 that’s a fact, also anti locking sensors will be placed on the brakes. More weird gear, more business and parts to be replaced. Anyway, we keep on cycling! 💪🏼💪🏼💪🏼
@@gabrielfernandeztattoos there is an Italian video on RUclips where Mario Cipollini says exactly the same thing about disc brakes.
Tires and roads can not take any more the braking can he in racing and extre,e riding...mtb ... braking takes finesse too
I suppose like all the cyclists who rode with them before disc brakes came around
Old school 😄
Nothing wrong with rim brakes on Road Bikes what so ever. Look back through history . Stick some quality alloy rims on if you are worried about carbon.. Discs for dirt . Rim for Road . .
I heard that somewhere... 😂
Unsurprisingly: Yes. If rim brakes were good enough to race until the 2010s, how should they not be for a *holiday* trip on Mallorca? With traffic and average technical abilities, you'll be riding way below what has been safely done on rim brake bikes before, so "surviving" casual riding is a bit of a clickbaity title. It's a bit of a shame that people who started riding on disc brakes perhaps think it was a ride on a cannonball. No, it absolutely isn't ... even 20 year old bikes with fresh pads and intact braking surfaces stop absolutely fine and I would assume getting at the material's limit is hard enough even with rim brakes. It might be that it is easier to cook rim brakes if you mistreat them on 20k alpine descent but I'd say that's more of a problem with your technique than technology.
Yes, exactly, my title was in relation with all the recent bad press about rim brakes that suddenly came out
@@fede1275 Yeah, please don't take it as a offense, the video was an excellent dive into the topic from a practical perspective. Marketing (and marketing-driven media) is just overweighing the advantages of disc brakes for most riders. I ride for serveral years and due to market availability my next bike will be disc but I've never had a situation where I felt unsafe or couldn't stop with my rim brake bikes, except when I was too lazy about wear and maintenance in the early days... 😜
Thing i don't like about disc brakes is all the garbage that comes with it.
Expensive junk .