Hi-Fi sounds fake to me!
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- Опубликовано: 14 окт 2019
- Today, I share my potentially controversial perspective on hi-fi and realism. Some of you will disagree with it. Others may find value in it. . Either way, here are a few reasons why I feel realism is beyond the reach of most stereo systems, and why I feel this observation can be so liberating!
![Cordae - Saturday Mornings (feat. Lil Wayne) [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/z2GYJua09F0/mqdefault.jpg)
Time for a controversial video with a click-baity title. This is when it gets fun! For the record - I genuinely like the gear that you see in the video. Fakeness and all!
Hell, that's my dream system sitting behind you! Well, maybe a PrimaLuna instead of the Luman.
True hi fi is an attempt to reproduce music with realism. It is a failure, but there is equipment that can be found which can bring pleasure to each individual given their budgetary restraints. No, it will never be live or achieve that state, but we can still find solice in gear that reproduces music reasonably well and be happy with it. Music can relax or excite and that is up to each one to find. Fake is correct as the phrase is music reproduction equipment and the perceptions of each person varies. There is no live performance mirror system, that is an illusion! We each must find something that we can enjoy music, whether it is at home or mobile or at work if that is allowed. Find something that works for you and share your happiness!
To be aware of one's limitations is to be free of them! 😉😉😉
I have these speakers too and dearly love them. About understanding those limitations and what this hobby is really about - I got there by myself after years of mad swapping gear and loosing thousands of €, now also fucusing on tonality and when someone finally comes to that point, he will be a much, much happier audiophile. Steve Gutenberg is there too with those fancy small monitors and A-class amps I think. :)
Gotta agree, lol! And add, sometimes the best of the best sounds the least musical. Piano? Yeah, very very hard to capture and reproduce. In fact, this is a go to for me when listening to something new, do I like what I hear or not. For me, I guess, it's all about fatigue. Can I listen to this forever and ever or does it irritate me after a time! Laid back, warm, musical...real? Maybe not.
This is an audiophile that has gone all the way off the deep end and managed to pull himself back to reality. Absolutely correct. If you have ever attended a live string ensemble (violin, viola, cello, double bass), you know that your sound system is only a pale imitation. From the microphone to the pre and post production processes, there is so much processes, conversions and losses before a live concert sound exits your speakers.
When I heard 4 people play bluegrass and I don't like bluegrass, I ran over to hear it closer. They sounded like nothing I ever heard on speakers. The realism vs reproduction are far away from each other.
A good band live in a nice venue is unmatched. Home is nice though, because my whiskey collection, beer and pajamas are close by.
The most honest and accurate video on the subject I have come across so far, congrats, really hoping you are rewarded somehow for all this work! I would never be able to do what you do for free, and I am a pretty enlightened guy! I think for right now I have almost hit my point of diminishing return, where I feel like any extra expenditure is not going to be worth it. There are a few tweaks left to me, but they are all cheap and just require thought and patience. My total outlay for my rig is $18,000 CAD, which for some is crazy, others spend more on cables alone. It is all relative. My audio goals have been clarity, space, resolution, dynamics, low distortion - and under no illusions as to "realism". I am into hair raising entertainment, as you said, so thanks so much for providing kind guidance on my journey!
I like my "fake" sound to be dynamic and lively. Thank you very much lol
I like your take.
As a mediocre gigging musician and hobby engineer, I've never thought that actual reproduction of recorded music was for purpose of recreating that "in person" sound. Typically the mixed & mastered product sounds cleaner, better separation of instruments & tonally more pleasing - if mixed well, of course - than being in room with an electrified band. For example, you don't have amp hiss, awkward snare/tom frequencies, vocal frequencies mixing with other instruments or other ambient sounds in final mixes that are obvious in person at studio & even more so in live performances.
Having a good listening setup definitely is a plus if it achieves a broad frequency range & has minimal noise, but idea that the system should recreate some fairy tale idea of what the band/instruments are actually doing is kinda silly since it is not reality.
High-End enthousiasts would point out that a good system doesn't try to create some fairy tale of what a bandinstruments are actually doing, but tries to reproduce that sound as neutral as possible. You take the finished product; vinyl album, CD or DVD and try to make that sound as best as possible. Naturally each listener has it's own preferences of what sounds "right", so they bias their system towards that. What's on the album, CD or DVD is how the band/producer want's you to hear it, not how it actually sounded when they recorded it, so there's already a huge bias to the sound.
I don't really get the "you can't reproduce a live concert" comment in the video, because who would want to reproduce that at home? Live music sounds like crap when you really listen critically to it, because of all the difficulties a live-venue faces and because of all the compromises that have to be made. They often try to cover that by cranking up the volume to almost insane levels and that's just another thing you wouldn't readily do at home.
So the question to me is "what's the purpose of this video?"
- Is it just, as described "click-bait"?
- Is it to point out that according to the vlogger it doesn't make sense to HIM to spend a lot of money on a sound system at home?
- Or is it an attempt to put the incredible amount of hype that comes with high-end audio systems somewhat into perspective?
@@tjroelsma this video doesn't help at all. It's really not the point what one would call a sound. Real. Almost real. Whatever.
At least there is only one point..Anyone has a limited amount of money. 1 k, 2 k, 10 k. And everyone wants to get as much quality out of his money as he can.
Bravo, Sean! Keeping it 100. We do love our favorite illusions. It's when we chase something the laws of physics don't allow that we get in too deep. I used to have audiophilia, but I got better. Now I love the music.
Congratulations on your channel and perspective.
I grew up surrounded by HiFi products (my father had a store) and It gave me a very simple and candid opinion about what a good sound meant to me. (BTW, for additional context, I also play piano and other instruments and engineered some original music recordings).
But somewhere in the early 90’s we (as Europeans) were bombarded with magazine reviews like What-HiFi, always preaching theories about what a good sound means, the search for the ultimate “accuracy” (stupid concept for most recorded music, as only a few people heard the sound that the mastering engineer was listening, let alone the real thing), and other BS statements.
Anyone who’s ever listened to a real live drum known that it sounds nothing like 99% of recordings, and I go as far as saying that in most cases the recording sounds better!!
The hi-hats can (and mostly are) equalized during de mixing process in order to get rid of the “ugly” part of them, and most toms and snares are not only equalized but also gated and compressed in order to sound better and clearer in the mix.
This was the norm 40 years ago and for several good reasons, because no one is going to listen to music in a car or living room at the same volume that a real drum (for instance) achieves. Dynamics always had to be tamed in one way or another.
In real life (without electronics) you also can’t achieve something usual like an acoustic guitar and vocals with a nice reverb while the bass is bone dry (as it should, unless you don’t mind all the mud that it creates).
If the guitar, bass and vocal is on the same room, you can’t have selectable reverb...
...but it does sound great and sweet on a good recording, doesn’t it? 😉
Most music recordings were never meant to sound realistic (a little research on the good old RCL panning gives a good insight).
Music recordings are (mostly) made to be fun, to move people, to be exciting and pleasant.
With a few exceptions, accuracy was never the main goal with recorded music.
And that leads to the BS that printed magazines published for decades, where using tone controls were “unacceptable” because it wasn’t the way that the producer meant to be heard, even if nobody else knows what that reference really was, and your unique living room (and possibly speakers) are making truly gigantic changes to the sound!!!
But then again, I’ve come to believe that many reviewers didn’t know jack about the actual process of music recording, or if they did, there was no space in the old printed magazines to tell it like it is.
Looking back, while I lived that insane BS (that I believed was real) I made some poor decisions about gear, spent unnecessary money, and I was less satisfied with music reproduction than when I used mostly my ears (and occasionally tone controls if they made it sound better).
And this is the best advice that I can give people:
- Use your ears, with the music that you usually listen and don’t just assume that it must be sounding “right” just because it’s a product from the brand X or the reviewer Y wrote that it was great.
Maybe it sounded great in it’s room and with some kind of recordings, but it can sound like crap in your room and with your preferred music.
If accuracy was the real goal, most loudspeakers would sound pretty much similar after all these decades of development, and they all sound different (even if we compare the most expensive ones).
Music isn’t about accuracy (any drum machine is really accurate, but it kills any trace of human feel in music).
Music is all about how it makes YOU feel, and that is mostly personal and subjective to begin with.
I don’t usually subscribe audio gear channels, but I’m going to do it with this one.
Keep up the good work without BS, because IMHO that’s the best way to capture more and younger people to this great hobby.
Cheers! 👍
I play both piano and violin and as someone who has loved music and the equipment we play it on, I agree. Thanks for being truthful.
Great video! I was finding myself watching videos and reading about gear a lot more than actually listening to music and enjoying what I have. When I realised this I knew there was a real problem. I've learned to just chill and enjoy my gear.
I have been at this for a few decades and at this point all I want is something that sounds great with the music I like. Don't need approval from any reviewer or measurements. I do appreciate reviewers and measurements as they help introduce me to new stuff and a perspective on its sound. There are always compromises and while these compromises often diminish with higher price they never go away. IMO the most important thing is to discover what you really like and get your sonic priorities straight. Know what compromises you can live with. That will put one on the path to finding the right system for them.
I recorded mostly rock bands for decades and I always thought how am I going to get that sound out of these speakers. The bass player alone was running a 1000w amp with a 4 by 10 and a 15 inch speaker lol.
Thanks for all the great videos
Well said.
No matter who the quote is attributed to.. “Life is a journey, not a destination”
or did I mean how many speakers can I buy on the way
There are definitely components when paired together can fool the ear. Obviously, a person singing or speaking to you will be more audible than anything recorded unless you’re in another room. I think the chase is more about finding the closest thing to realism. I’ve always felt certain vintage pieces overhauled and up to spec sound just as good as modern costing ten times as much. One reason some of the vintage has gone through the roof is because of this. This has never been a debate with me. Whatever floats your boat.
For a brief moment, at a hi-fi show, I thought Christine McVie was actually in the next room I was going in. I quickly told myself that it was speakers. Turns out the speakers were 15" driver Lockwoods. So, speakers can sound almost real when you're not in the room! :D
Ya know - I may give you some credit there. Sometimes giant speakers, particularly PA-type speakers, can sound fairly realistic when you're far enough away from them / in a completely different space. At least from the perspective of an amplified musical event.
I've been playing the piano for 30 years and I've been tricked into thinking I've been listening to a real piano from standing outside a hall a couple times.
Perfect time alignment of driver signals can contribute significantly to that excellent result at distance. Not paying attention to that factor is a major cause for frustration among newbie / lesser-educated sound reinforcement folks, especially, trying to understand why their system isn't living up to audience expectations for clarity and range during performances.
mrpositronia when I was a teenager I walked into SIR on Sunset while they were mastering The Thrill is Gone. Sounded live from the studio to the hall. It was impressive.
True, always sounds great when you're in a different room.
Couldn’t appreciate more how you can bring this hobby back to reality and why we have fun listening to the systems we do ✌🏼
This is the best video on HiFi in the last two years. Awesome. I feel exactly the same way about stereo. I'm a devoted audio junkie, but I have always thought of the stereo as a musical instrument for playing recordings, not a faithful reproducer of live sound. I'll even go so far as to say that I like the sound of home stereos better than most live shows. Sure I too seek more real sounding setups for the recordings that were made to sound real in the first place, but in the end it's just not very interesting to me to try to imagine that my 15'x20' room is a stadium with 70,000 screaming fans. I like the sounds that speakers make in a living room. I don't see anything wrong with that.
As someone who has enjoyed live performances ranging from a solo guitarist, pianist or violinist, to full blown classical ensembles and rock/metal concerts, I wholeheartedly agree with you. I have my opinions as to what I like, and of course that changes, but hi-fi is a luxury entertainment medium. Nothing beats, or even comes close to a tight, live performance.
Can't disagree with you. As a pianist, I've never heard anything but a real piano sound like a real piano.
Exactly. There is no system that will fool you that there is a piano playing in the next room. You are always aware the sound comes from speakers no matter how good it is.
Piano is the first thing I listen to check the sound quality of a speaker. Liniarity is one thing however phase and delay is as important. Ks digital hast the c8 that makes the job. I just order a pair. The Pino sounds like it in the fake room. It was the first time for me and this is why they have my money.
I auditioned some very expensive high-regarded systems lately. Ome of ghem specificially: piano sounds like an artificial synthetic widget .... I can’t even bear to listen through a single song. Price ≠ Musical enjoyment
No system sounds like it when you are sitting behind a piano and playing it. You hear all these overtones and sustained sounds... But, when you are listening in the audience you hear none of that. What good speakers produce is what the one in the audience hears, not the pianist.
Pianists just have to play something themselves to enjoy it properly. it's a skill I wish I had, all my pianist friends are better musicians than me :(
I love you, man. These are my thoughts exactly. I'm planning to buy some Yamaha amplifier with probably Dali or KEF speakers and the amount of BS I've heard from the "audiophiles" and hifi dealers in discussion forums is overwhelming. "Don't match these speakers with this amp, because it's too warm" or "because its too sharp" etc. The speaker cable scam, etc. All this makes me laugh, because ultimately it's just music and unless your stereo system is very bad/broken, you can enjoy music anyway.
That is a very useful point of view. I also agree with your POV about tone. Faithful tone and accurate spacing of instruments are two primary concerns for me when it comes to hifi. Thank you for sharing.
I have had a yearly subscription to a symphony in each major city I've lived in. I have never ever heard a system in a high end audio store, show or home system that comes close to sitting there.
You're right. It's not possible.
Going to be hard especially in a room that isn’t huge lol
I would rather enjoy music in my living room than go to a live performance. The only exception that would make me put my pants on and go through the traffic and parking hassle is a symphony or opera. Hell, if it's a piece from the Baroque era, I would go alone so I can enjoy the experience without any distractions.
@@TWiiZA Me too. I saw every rock concert in my younger days. Now it"s 99% classical.
@@TWiiZA I agree - I very rarely attend a modern music concert except someone in the Madeleine Peyroux or Tracy Chapman genre.
Good one. Well said of something I've been realizing and trying to put into words and still occasionally wrestling with. Your thoughts along this line changed my whole audio journey when I first heard some of them last winter. Frankly, I coulda used the insight 47 years or so ago, and yeah, I know that's asking a lot of you to go back in time and find me as wee lad and set my audio course off in the right direction, so I'm not gonna hold that against you.
If you want to believe that your home system sounds like live music, you have to avoid live music. I love being reminded how good a live performance can be.
Stated otherwise:
*"How Ya Gonna Keep ''Em Down On The Farm, When They Just Seen Paree?"*
Yeah and we need to remember that not all "true" sounds are "good" sounds . Comparing to audio hifi , a live performance can sound very good or very bad .
Personally i don't really enjoy hearing high note violin sounds near me in person , it's kinda irritating .
@@rekkiesbub423 Well, yeah. Or bagpipes.
@@russelhaxby6194 burn them all, they make me want to cut my ears off and bury them far away.
Sean as a guy who plays acoustic and electric guitars as well as a 6 piece drum kit each and every day for the past three decades......I totally agree with you. Great video man.
It’s all about balance and perspective. For myself I’ve got to find my point of “my” diminishing return and hope that brings me a little closer to realism, less fake that is.
It's taken me 10 years to figure out what I want out of a stereo system. And the answer is that I want to listen to lo-fi metal recordings loud with low fatigue factor, and be involved enough with ambient music that my mind is picturing natural landscapes like they've got on the album art. So a relaxing lo-fi system with volume and some soundstage tricks.. not far off the average Best Buy customer who wants 'bass & loud.' And if that big box system has better detail than mine that's ok too, your average non-audiophile probably has better mastered music than I do too.
Congrats on figuring out what will make ya happy! Sometimes it takes awhile. Othertimes, our tastes and priorities change as life goes on and we accrue more experience. Enjoy ze metal!
I think it's a useful way to think of it. Any system is just a window into what happened on the day of the recording. It's fine if you want to look for the clearest, cleanest window. Also fine if you want to look through carnival glass. The moment of recording, regardless how high quality it might be, will miss a large percentage of what is occurring. It can't catch the energy in the room, the looks on the musician's faces. It's catching a bit of what they are playing, and a bit of the room, and the microphones, and the mechanics of the recording medium. Then it's being shaped and twisted to whatever extent the recording engineer wishes. At best, by the time we're listening to the disk or stream or album, we're looking at the shadow of a shadow. The idea of the event. We're then filtering it through all the idiosyncrasies of our system. Find what wrings the most joy out of that figment, that ghost of what was. Be happy. Try not to harsh other people's mellow if they think differently. Those are my thoughts at this hour.
Dude. If I hadn't already subscribed to your channel a couple of weeks ago, I think I would've done it just for this one video alone. Like your chutzpah, man. Keep on keeping it real and happy listening!
@ Z. Thank you for putting your thoughts out there. I could not agree more. I also have yet to hear any music system that can realistically reproduce a Piano or Drum Kit, especially the Kick Drum. I think some of the deception within the audio community occurs, because fewer folks get to actually hear live music. Concert ticket s are so expensive now days, and many local arts venues that used exist have evaporated. Sadly, I fear for many, the majority of the musical experience they have access to is what is reproduced from a car radio or a stream off their cell phone.
I get what you are driving at - and oddly the least "fake" listening ive enjoyed is standing virtually in between ( just forward ) of my towers - facing same direction as speakers and running them hard - kind of like being on stage :) or wearing a very big set of cans . And yes I've tried every other traditional set up . Glass of wine makes it even better.
This is why speaker designers are so important.A beautiful looking speaker tower in your house goes a long way to making one happy and enjoying the sound. No, looks are not the end game but if you love to look at those new towers in your living room you are half way to a sound you will enjoy.
AWESOME im,glad you .made this. I've been preaching this forever! I played in a death metal / hard-core band playing infront of 10k people. NOTHING comes close to that,which why i enjoyed reviewing for AVS and working in a recording studio. Bravo bro.
Thank you Sean! Very nicely put. I'm so put off by all the 'anger' and 'bickering' on both RUclips and Audio forums that for the most part I simply stay out of the conversations... chiming in here and there when I am hopeful of Helping out others A.) Not make the same mistakes that I have, or B.) Food for thought so that they can make the Best decision that suits themselves.
I had a projector home theater that me and my buddies would watch concert DVDs on, and having visual with the Audio would make a much bigger difference in emotional impact than sitting and listening in the dark ( which I do and like). Seemed the sound was much more live when you could see the performers.
nugs.tv
I agree.
Ever tried a 3D blue-ray?
I agree totally.
I willingly give up just a touch of sound quality, in order to additionally have the video. (CD vS DVD)
Why just stimulate the ears, when you can stimulate the ears AND eyes?
Much more rewarding!
This is a very known psychological effect where multinsensoru integration enhances the overall perception of a stimulus
The more I listen to you ideas, the more I appreciate them. Good job.
AWESOME Sean! :) Thank you man. I'm 71 and it's ALWAYS been about "tone" for me. I see/feel tone as the primary "emotional" conduit in and for ALL of the music,.. of my life..
The Amazon Echo in our kitchen supplies that special "tone" that makes me and my wife Vicki happy whenever we hear it..those old Altec ACS41 powered computer monitors are evidently still keeping both my wife and grandson Luke pretty damn happy in the living room and on their computers! Neither comes even close to a LIVE performance! :O ..but they convey/induce enough of the "emotion" to make us happy. :)
Thank you for this! Its what i have thought all along. When i am happy with the sound of my system i am good, i feel the music.
Sean, one of the best video's I have seen so far on this channel. You completely nailed it.
I'll give just an example to illustrate the 'fakeness' of hi-fi. My son plays the piano. His acoustic piano is in our living room. Before that the only sound we had in our living room was the one that came from my hi-fi speakers. But boy when my sons plays the piano he made me realize how incredible dynamic this instrument is. I told him what comes out of his instrument would never even come close to what my current or any future hi-fi speakers I own could reproduce. You should have seen the smile on his face :)
Yes! I've stopped chasing the "absolute sound" and simply go with my preferred flavor of fake. After reading hifi mags and forums for so many years it makes you feel like some kind of deviant, but it really is so freeing, in a first world problems sort of way.
Totally agree with you there....it just comes down to "how do you like your coffee?"
Also agree, i actually often prefer my flavoured fake over real thing..
Thanks for this sharing. I think it's very true. And it's good to have this objectivity in your reviews !
Sean, you are so one hundred percent right. Technology simply isn't there yet with recording or playback. One summer evening I walked by a small music hall in a small town. Crickets chirping, humans murmuring on the street, birds settling in for the night and I could hear the Quartet in the music hall. I walked closer and stood by the open door and listened....it was awesome. I pursued that moment through the acquisition of stereo equipment for years when I discovered the TRUTH that you are mentioning in your video. I have a good set up now that is under $10,000 and am satisfied with the sound that emanates from the speakers...is it REAL? Nope
I wholeheartedly agree with you! I also very much appreciate the advancements in sound reproduction that have been made by people who are willing to chase after the illusion!
I applaud the intent to add perspective to this hobby.
Great video. Reminds me of one of Guttenberg’s about listening expectations,
Recorded music is a self contained art form. The whole process results in a stand alone creation.
For me, what I want, is a sense that the studio is present, just on the other side of the studio glass.
Or not exactly. I want the art created by the musicians, producer and engineers to feel like its transparently present, sounding as they intended or better than they intended.
Or.... never mind.
Live music is a very different art form.
Agree 100 percent with your point. It is like photography spend lot of money on accurate calibrated screens . Then do color correction. Color correction most of time is faking the real color so final photos looks good. And each camera applies faking curves so color looks good. Because people loves fake things. Most people doesn't eat RAW food without sugar or salt. Same applies for music
In this whole live vs. recorded debate, I've got a different opinion. I've heard recordings that I loved and then saw the band live and preferred the recording. I've also heard live bands performing from a current album and had them sound similar enough where I didn't mind listening to a recording because it was of very high, realistic quality.
It should be about enjoying music. This year I challenged myself to expand my listening by only listening to unique albums and not the same stuff over and over. (I'm up to about 525 different albums at the moment.) Stepping out into the vastness of the music available really helped me to gain appreciation for different genres, different musicians, and to either delve more into what I already loved, but also finding new things to love. I didn't matter if the source was vinyl, or digital, via headphones, or a car radio, etc. It's about the music first.
If you're not in this to appreciate the art people produce, you're just a tech enthusiast that happens to listen to music. That's OK! I'm not diminshing your value in that assessment, I'm also a tech enthusiast about a lot of things including music, movies, computers, photography, etc. It's just a different form of appreciation.
First comment on any of your videos in the couple years I've been watching.
If I could give this video a thousand thumbs up I would.
We all like to eat. Some prefer a filet mignon and some won't touch meat at all but we all want to be full and satisfied after a meal.
Keeping eating but eat what you want. This is now my favorite video of yours and you didn't review a single freaking thing. Thanks for your voice in this eclectic community.
indeed a great video and honest oppinion on the matter. there really is no "true" sound but "sound" we like/prefer....and we, hi-fi enthusiasts, spend long time seeking :) i've spend most of my quest with headphones (although I have a system I built long time ago that I can only listen to once a year, it being too far from where I live now), but now exploring the amp/speaker area again (with the IotaVX and BR03s) not without the "help" of this channel videos (thanks for which though) :)
This is the best audio RUclips video advice ever.. Thank you.
Great video. Honestly to my ears the best live sound to me is Klipsch haha. That was the closest I came to the alter bridge concert I went to. ☺️ The concert used some big jbl horn speakers. I am just happy someone came out here and said something about this topic
Nailed it. I’m in it for the love of gear and enjoyment of music.
Good video Sean this is exactly why I have been able to live with the same speakers for 17years. The only thing I have upgraded is my HT preamp. Having been married to a music teacher I attended hundreds of live performances and there is no way any speakers can reproduce exactly the sound of a Steinway grand piano or a live full orchestra.
I heard a system with the big, four-cabinet Wilson WAAM speakers costing hundreds of thousands. It didn't fool me into believing I was hearing a live orchestra. It just sounded like a "big stereo system."
Wilson is as over-rated as it is overpriced - nice paint job ( pity about the sound...) as are the wimpy LS5A's or the "new" NS10's aka LS50's - delivering what the artist intended - sounds great, provided the artist does not live in the confines of an mp3 prison ;-)
Excellent 'ramblings' Sean, another thoughtful & leftfield vid.
I don't have much to add here (most unusual for me 😁), that hasn't been said by many of those who have commented positively and insightfully.
I've been at it a bit longer than you & I often think, when checking forums, RUclips etc: do some of these people actually listen to their music for the sake of musically enjoyment or are they too busy analysing the sound of their gear?
Instrumental music aside (and yes I listen to plenty of instrumental music: classical, jazz, post-rock and electronic in large doses); however I love lyrics in other forms of music (typically non commercial, but that's neither here nor there).
So, the question arises: How can somebody listen to the lyrics and really get to know what the artist is trying to say (if anything at all), when they're so busy listening for nuances in their system? The mind simply isn't capable of doing both (even though we may think we can).
For example...think about being younger and listening to music and all those songs and lyrics people retain. Those tracks if they were still played many years later, people can still sing along with. Fast forward...what about today? How many so called audiophiles can say the same about current/new music they listen to? I doubt the answer would be the equivalent. Why is this so? I'd suggest because the music is not being 'properly' listened with a greater emphasis on sound rather than the music.
Oh....ffs...I wasn't gonna add anything. 👻
Just food for thought..maybe a little off topic, possible an extension or detour whichever way one views things.
Keeping it real ✊🏽....digging these vids!!!
Sean, my gosh you are so on point! In so many ways.
The most realistic hi fi sound I have ever heard was at a hi fi show it must of been 25 years ago. It was Revel speakers and proceed electronics playing BB King, I closed my eyes and it actually gave me the illusion that the guy was in front of me playing live the sensation was so realistic... you could probably pick up that system for peanuts now, second hand I think a lot of the older kit is better than the new stuff, sometimes hi fi seems to go backwards.
You're so right, about the "older kit is better than the new stuff." I have a theory as to why this is true... When a new manufacturer of high-end gear initially starts a company, they'll want to earn a good reputation and make a big splash in the marketplace with their best product lines. So, they typically build their products using the best parts available, and often their lucky if they can just break even. As time goes by and their reputations are secured, that's when many manufactures get fat and lazy and their newer stuff isn't anywhere near as good as their original products.
I have an old cheap ass set of Sony speakers from the late '90s that are very unique. It has a 'Quick Edge Woofer' design where the all the Bass comes out of a huge U-shaped Port around the 5-1/4" Woofer. The actual cabinet housing the sound is technically terrible and cheaply made. But to me it sounds better and more exciting than other speakers that are braced much better.
Even though technically on paper it's a horrible speaker, I love the way it makes all songs sound. The Bass is phenomenal with a massive sound stage. I doubt it's technically accurate by any measure but it sounds better to me than more expensive and better made speakers I'd tested. I think the point is we all have different tastes and sound quality is very subjective depending on the person.
Good post. My ears are tested to have better response toward the lower frequencies, and personally I like to hear more bass and appreciate a sound with more lower harmonic for me to tingle. Most nowadays HiFi and HiRes recordings and equipments fail to move me badly. I have already given up searching and gone back appreciating only the music but not the sound.
YES thank you! I've noticed the same thing in headphones. The stuff people usually describe as ultra detailed and realistic usually ends up having waaaay more treble detail than you would ever get IRL and no bass. Let me clarify I am not treble sensitive I play the friggin flute and piccolo for crying out loud and not all that well =). When you do a direct comparison with a recording taken from a nice binaural mic and the original track the detail oriented hifi cans audiophiles tend to drool over do indeed have lots of detail in the upper end but the original recording does not. Therefore the detail is fake since its not present in the source material. Also interesting you brought up mental health since I have definitely noticed a good sound system at least for me usually works several fold better than anti-depressants for everyday management.
So my golden rule is above all else go with what sounds good to you. Its really hard to get a good headphone recording since everyone's ear canals are different so what sounds good is very unique to the individual a lot like foot shape. Shoes only work because they are soft and flexible. Cram your foot into a rigid ski boot or speed skate and you'll quickly realize a universal last design is a pipe dream. Also not to mention there's nothing natural about the recording and mixing process itself so what does it really matter. Even with live music its not all equal. There are venues with good acoustics and venues with acoustics so bad its beyond me why you'd want to reproduce it.
Once you figure out what sounds good to you then you just try to build on it and screw anyone who would put you down for not having an expensive or realistic enough of a system. If you happen to enjoy the shit out of something cheap how the hell is that a bad thing? At a certain point the more you throw down on a system the more you are setting yourself up to be disappointed because no system is perfect and its pretty subjective.
LMAO Awesomeness !!!! I am constantly amazed by what is considered to be a, "true audiophile systems", just because of whatever is the vague nonsensical criteria of the current rage. Audiophiles are even worse than the computer/gaming community with all their trolls. I work on the philosophy of; do you like it, can you afford it, and most importantly ....... is your experience enjoyable and do you find value in the time/money you have invested in it. In the end that's all that really matters.
Well said, I going to set up a home theater room just to experience music in surround sound of music I don't really care about, it's not even like that in concert, it'll be similar to an IMAX experience for music, excellent video
Great thinking, You are perfecly on the money to say the least. True to the original is an elusion and that search for as served the manufacturing industry quite well for decades. The closest that one may perhaps achived is what maybe what the recording engineer intended to grasp/capture and how well that as been achived.
Amen. Hifi sounds way different, not necesarly "not as good as" or "better than". Certainly pleasant if you know what you are looking for.
Well done - the messages that resounded most for me: "We're all chasing a type of sound... I like tone... so that's what I chase after... if it connects you to the music in a meaningful way, great, that's awesome... You increase the odds of attaining better performance. And if that's what makes you happy, that's wonderful." - Amen!
I agree wholeheartedly and thanks for the Candor and honesty
Absolutely spot-on just enjoy the system you’ve got otherwise go to live concerts but for me I’d sooner stop at home and listen to my hifi in the comfort of my music room
Grew up with a dad that's in to "hi-fi" music. At 8 yrs old I was taught to play the violin. Taught myself to play the guitar along with that. In high school we had an elective class that's an introductory to electronic engineering. Part of our project was building pre amp and power amp. Later part of high school I was in a band playing bass and carried on all the way to college. Had a few studio time along the way. I'm in my late 40s now and still play the guitar. All these has influenced the type of sound my system has to be. My system is a mix of pro audio and hifi gear. I love the sound of "fake" music and love listening to them loud but that's what I do not have at home. I prefer the sound of my system to reproduce as close to real musical instruments/vocals so an EQ is an integral part of my system and the midrange is the most critical part to me. I don't listen loud, I'm more a near/mid field listener. I am not an audiophile, I just like to sit in my corner to hear and listen to my music. If I need the feel for hifi fake music, I grab my headphone.
I really like the video. Just enjoy what"s in your budget. Have fun experimenting ! Try tubes,ss,horns,ribbons,new or vintage. I have a 10k system but the best complement I got on a system was a garage sale/flee market system that cost a whopping $120 lol. My personal fave was a "fun" system that was under $1000. Now I am thinking of building my own speakers and amp...
Yes, Steve Guttenburg enlightened me one day when he interviewed a freelance recording engineer about the tricks of trade. There is a lot of compression and other processing that goes into a recording to make it “musical”. Surprising most people would not like the “raw” sound that is actually recorded. Having said that a recording should be true to what the artist intended.
I found that interview to be pretty disenchanting actually.
And with this, Dorothy pulls back the curtain on the Wizard. I'm glad you did this video. *Apportez la controverse.*
...
Still happy with the RP600M's, btw. They are my new musical instruments.
Sean,
This is excellent...and you’re wise well beyond your years! 👍🏼
Really insightful stuff Sean, diggin' the new format too. Agree that listeners often loose perspective, we've all done it. Is it real enough? For me at about $2500, yeah. But I always watch reviews thinking , one day, we'll achieve perfect reproduction and Sean or one of our other much loved reviewers turn us on to it - wonder how much that'll cost and when.
So true. I've rotated a lot of different gear through my main setup over the years. I was a bit of a speaker junkie too. My current setup is nothing fancy, and my speakers are big JBLs. I just like the way it all works together. It's punchy, dynamic, fun, and sounds great playing a wide variety music, which is what I listen to, a wide variety of music. I know it's fake, but I love it.
All that other stuff that I've owned? There is nothing wrong with it. It sounds good too. In fact, I give it away to people who only listen to their music on laptops. Their minds are blown at first listen. They don't look back. Job done.
You are so right.
After all the years I have had hifi I have a similar attitude to hifi, the difference is that I build my stereo devices and can say that most expensive audio components are meaningless after all that you have to pay for an illusion. There are certainly those who will think that I am wrong, but it is up to each one to decide what is right for them not for me, since the sound experience is subjective.
I have a friend who spent a lot of money on his system one day he told me he had been to a concert one day but thought his system sounded better, hmmm. He told me there was no stereo image sitting in the wrong spot no treble, no dynamic and they were playing way too loud. Funny or what.
I agree mostly but once in a while a recording comes along that really sounds close with a good powerful hi-fi system. The recording has to have all the right elements. I’ve had the experience just a week ago. Check out the Steve Gadd drum solo Java Jazz fest 2008 on RUclips. I cranked it to live levels bass and all having 2000 watts of clean power and my Legacy Focus SEs. Wow couldn’t believe what I was experiencing. Very close to the recent Peter White concert I attended in the vineyards.
Gave me chills and was so much fun. That’s all I’m after once in a while. Great tone, realistic vocals and solid bass.
Doesn’t matter it fake or real . Just matter of you like it or not
So true,relax and enjoy😁!
Bravo! And the truth shall make you free! Thanks bro.
Sean you are spot-on. My audiophile buddy and I have talked about this exact same stuff. I'd like to add another piece of information though that also changes if it sounds real or not. Not to the scale of what you just pointed out but it definitely makes a difference. Recording quality. It's hard to come by Stellar recording quality. Mainly I'm talking about soundstage and imaging. Speaking of soundstage and imaging. I do believe some speakers do it better than others but I truly believe that it needs to be in recording for the most part. I haven't listened to as much gear as you but if probably heard about 15 different pairs of speakers and for the most part they all have some good Imaging and soundstage. But I will agree some of them had better than others. The whole thing of some speakers having tremendous soundstage and imaging and others having horrible or none or terrible is a farce. Every manufacturer that's been around for a good 20 to 40 years has some speakers that will sound stage and image pretty good. Thanks for the video is very interesting :-)
i like your thoughts on this topic Sean :)
also love those harbeth's, was on my list when i was looking for speakers, found a good 500 dollar deal on some spendor sa-1, those looks very similar to those harbeth's, same size and sealed cabinet, but do i dear to say that spendor's soft dome tweeter with no mesh in front of it looks much better.
i took some weeks to get the subwoofer integrated properly and now i have bass also :) 15" sealed aluminium woofer is really impactful when done right.
wish i could say more about the spendor's but my hifi experience is limited. i just know i like sealed boxes and reviews the have nothing bad to say about a speaker :P
your review of The P3ESR are on the official harbeth website if you did not know :)
I 100% agree with this, on my home system I like to add a little more bass and treble which causes audiophiles I know to have fits due to not staying true to the recorded media, I play and listen to music for pleasure and if my system.the way I have it setup is enjoyable to ME that's all that matters.
THANK YOU. That's what I thought. You are my hero.
Thanks for sharing this honest assessment. I would humbly add that the single most important complainant in terms of creating a realistic sound is the listening room. The best sound I ever heard was at a now defunct stereo shop in Pittsburgh. Micheal Green of room tunes totally rebuilt the room at great cost to the owner. Adjustable walls and the whole room tunes package. I heard "For Blue" Miles Davis great classic whenever I was auditioning a modest cd player. I never heard anything like it before or since. So amazing. But you know what - it still didn't sound like real music . Close but no cigar.
Let's Make Music at 810 South Aiken. Store was owned by Michail Klein. At first it was just he and I. I was in charge of making things sound good. I remember when Michael Green came and did that work to the walls. The room was actually pretty bad sounding. Michael Green helped it some but not that much. We played the Thiel speakers there most of the time with a Sony SCD-1 which was $6000 or a Linn LP-12 with Mark Levinson electronics. I did sales and repairs.
He was a good guy. I loved the sore and the one in Squirrel Hill too.
I think the system I heard had Mark Levinson electronics and Joseph audio speakers I think.
@@robertshorthouse1017 Yes that was called The Audio Gallery and I was there too. 1708 Shady Ave.
Great video. I love your opinions, especially on this subject. If we all spent more time listening to our system rather than trying to obtain the unobtainable, we'd probably be better off.
@Zero Fidelity Your doing a great job & your been help me out on my way to hi-f keep it up! ;-)
Cheers!
Stereo is fake because it sounds better than the real thing in a lot of instances. Most drummers kits sound trashy live. I’ve never had my bass sound as rich as I’ve heard it on many recordings. And live rock shows can sound down right awful in some music halls.
I needed to hear this. Thanks.
Couldn't agree more! Plus recordings themselves do not aim to be real but to sound good through speakers or headphones.
It's the way it's been for a while - Mr Producer " what!!! no one commented of my 12Hz infrabass organ crescendo!!?? " :-) Things could be done better using thinking brains, technology & DSP - BUT instead we have not-thinking brains, crap tech that's well marketed & DSP used badly/poorly &/or by the same imbeciles who think that bad recordings are to be sent out to be fixed by the mastering geeza :-)
i was not sure what to expect by this video but it really begins to put this whole passion in perspective. Being a person who is passionate about music and audio equipment since the 80's, I can really relate to this message. For one thing, there is a point of diminishing returns in terms of actual money spent and a ton of variables. If you like a ribbon sound like Apogee or Magnepan, you may not be satisfied by an equally expensive dynamic driver system. Tube vs solid state, and just the wide differences in cost. In my journey 10,000 dollars doesn't always sound better than 4000. All the issues Sean talks about relating to recreating a live show in a home room space is so relevant here. In general however, there is big differences in good to great quality sound vs. poor sound coming from poorly executed design.This also addresses why listening to reference source material is so significant; source material you enjoy and are familiar with. last point; A speaker like Wharfdale can be very polarizing. They are really non fatiguing, balanced but not bright. well again it really depends on what moves you.
One of the best videos that I've seen! Thanks
And that mindset will also prevent a little bit of the addiction and to dig that rabbit hole to deep. ;)
i am proud to say that i use the dreaded loudness control on my amp...and i am not ashamed of using a kenwood ka-4040r. i have listened to several fancy amps on a specially built room from a friend of mine and i still prefer my setup. i have a dynacord tube amp with 4 el84's 2x2 in push pull and 6 12ax7's as preamp tubes, very beefy output xfromers etc and i still prefer the freaking kenwood... other thing is why so many expensive audiophile speakers are so small? i need to have atleast 10 inch woofers but that is not all, i want tweeters that dont have sibilance problems because that annoys me as hell....i cannot stand bookshelf speakers, i feel like i need air displacement in order to feel the fake sensation of realism in music
While I agree with you for the most part, I have to diverge on your impression of flat panel speakers (electrostatic, ribbon, magnestatic).
I've owned several pairs of electrostatic speakers in my life time, and the pinpoint imaging was always spot on. No huge mouths, etc. Early Magneplanars had a bit of that problem, but not so much in the newest models. I recently heard the 4 panel 30.7, and despite being so large, their imaging was pretty impressive. No oversized images that I was aware of.
100+ musicians at the symphony. how much air is being moved to get to your ears? way more than any box. STEREO is a CONSTRUCT.
I once heard a million dollar system. It sounded amazing, but not "real" for a second.
Well said. It should be encouraged to find your proper sonic preferences
Excellent discussion starter. Some go for Volume, some for “accuracy”, some for value, some for spaciousness, some just to show off what they can afford ...... it goes on and on. Find a point of view and embrace it, if you change your perspective and your goals change through experience embrace that as well. I’m fortunate that I started long ago in this hobby and have seen the changes over decades. THIS is the gilded age for sound reproduction. No matter your budget one can create a very pleasurable experience by NOT trying to recreate the sound of the live music experience. Of course one has to actually have experience with live music venues and understand they come in as many flavors as can be imagined.
Very well said. Now that I know where you are coming from I can sub!
Many things come into play perhaps the fact that music venues sound wildly different from 1 to the next . The best sounding venue in my 45+ years of live and hifi music was a show at One World Theater outside of Austin , Tx . The band for sure had impact too Otmar Liebert . So paper bass /full range drivers are a start . I have Tekton Lores with a vintage Luxman integrated and this setup while not to scale of a live venue has many of the characteristics and flavor. We just get as close as we can , if that's our goal.
You know, I like your perspective. And I think your right, spend to the limit that makes you happy with what your hearing.
It be fun to hear your thoughts on stuff like the 5 most overhyped hi-fi improvements and the 5 best real improvements over the last 40 years.
Best video on the topic I ever saw on RUclips and I have seen thousands of videos myself!🤗🤔😨🤓😉😁