For monitoring I use ESPAltherma , it does mean removing Heatpump cover and plugging in an esp 32 device. Gives all the info you need updated every 10 seconds
@@JonathanTracey it’s helped me tweak settings so I have a average cop since monitoring in early oct of 3.9 total , space heating is 4.5 . The coldest day here in November was - 1 overnight and Max temp of 4.7 which lead to a cop of 3.37 and Used 18 kWh s on that day so have reduced curve a little lower . I think there’s plenty of headroom to raise efficiency on a standard octopus install
Yeah, I wanna get a couple of months of data on the standard settings before I start adjusting things that way I’ll know if my adjustments are making any difference. One weeks data really isn’t sufficient to know if I’m being good or bad.
Is that similar to the Faikin project? It also uses an ESP32 hooked into the S21 port on Daikin A2A heatpumps. I have a couple installed in my units here and they're pretty useful, though I mostly use them for control and not monitoring.
For performance monitoring I use Open Energy Monitoring with a MID heat meter on the primary flow which gives accurate performance data in realtime which you can access on a mobile device, desktop or online. You can also download any dataset you want.
Definitely look into getting electric elements for the towel rail. We use them on a timer in the summer when the heating is off and the solar is on. Dry towels are a must in our house!
@@JonathanTracey It depends on the model of radiator... but it's defo possible... don't forget that most rads will have a connection at each corner... and the water only uses two of them, the vent uses one, which leaves one spare.
@@JonathanTracey we just drilled a hole into the room next door and installed a fused spur/time switch. Key thing is to make sure you don't use the element when the heat pump is running as it could overheat.
That would probably work in one of our bathrooms, but the other towel radiator is mounted on an outside wall with no cavity that’s easily accessible. I’m not in any rush to do it right now but will come up with a solution. Good call on the running out at the same time, hadn’t thought of that.
I've had a look at the top of my unit, the lip round the top diverts any water landing on top to the run off channels at the front left and right corners of unit. Most likely to stop this water dripping onto the evaporator and causing it to ice up even quicker.
When’s the same however as the unit is completely flat there is no incentive for the water to run towards those places so it just sits on top of the unit until it evaporates leaving the dirt behind
The top surface is easy to put a level on during installation. I built a roof structure for my tall air to air unit, mostly because we get a lot of hail storms, but it helps for all weather. Just allow for air flow.
Agree fully with the first point. Octopus energy offered me a monitoring system when I had mine installed. I said no because I would get consumed looking at the data and now I wish I had had it. 🤣 Not noticed the towel rail issues.
I agree with your first two comments, the towel rail was always going to be an issue with a low flow temperature but they do dry over time. For me the third issue is the location of the control panel as its very hard to access (and clunky as you describe). Crying out for an upgrade of App so all can be done on the App along with automatic COP readout.
On our towel radiator I fitted an electric heater that is only used on a timer in summer when the heating is not on, as our HP is on 24/7 the towels are always dry by the next day anyway so the lower temperature is no bother.
Worth checking if your ASHP model has a modbus interface. If so, this is a pretty easy thing to work with. I use the Waveshare PoE modbus adapter and it’s great.
You can buy heat pump covers which look much more attractive and can help solve the sitting water issue. Not cheap though! £300ish. Guess you could make one😅
I agree water pooling on top of the heatpump seems daft and it means that over time it gets dirty. The app is a bit disappointing as there’s too little info on it, but I’m not too bothered so long as Everything is working. Towel rail yes it takes longer but that’s ok as now my shower room isn’t a sauna. As a retired plumber/ heating engineer I think the pipe work in your airing cupboard could be a bit better especially the one straight in front of the cylinder that shouldn’t left like that as it’s to easy for it to be pulled out and cause a leak. I would definitely get them back to change that. It’s bad practice to leave a pipe unsecured in that way. If one of my chaps had done that he’d be back to alter it.
thanks for the tip. I have a follow-up meeting with them in a couple of weeks to check for any snagging problems. I’ll ask them about the pipework in front of the cylinder.
I agree... and on top of that... from what we can see from the video... the lagging is appalling, they couldn't even be bothered to take the old battens off the wall and the wiring looks like the plumbers done it (and not an electrician). Certainly not the sort of work I'd put my name to...
I agree about point 1. Ours is going green on the top and wipe it down regularly. I would love it to integrate with Agile and use the cheap slots to heat the hot water overnight. My wife would agree with you about the towel rails. We might look at converting electric, but it is a faf.
i’m going to design a cover that funnels the rain off the sides. I see in the daikin app it lets you integrate with intelligent octopus go, but can’t find any details. I probably will wait till we redo the bathrooms and covert towel rails then
I would love to have automations that integrate with Agile - although I'm starting to find that since you need to have it running for long periods to be efficient the erratic pricing (especially recently !) mean a lot of tweaking to avoid losing all the heat during a price spike. Octopus Cosy is starting to look like a good idea now !
@ Octopus Watch says I am £35 a month better off on Agile than Cosy. Hopefully Agile will come down again soon. Saying that I averaged 16p kWh of November. Still miles under the price cap.
The octopus energy integration with Home Assistant allows you to get the 30 minute pricing from our agile, so it’s pretty simple from there to build an automation that turn something on or off based on a threshold price that you set
The app data energy usage is coarse (1kw increments) i have found after a year of data, that the more accurate wall unit shows 79% of energy use shown on app.
I’m considering 3-D printing some sort of magnetic attached frames, sheet of plastic. It would sit just a few millimetres above the top of the unit having a very slight slope towards the back so that the water would run off
You can tell it's Saturday and I'm not required to be doing anything and I'm allowed to watch RUclips! I had to chuckle on the third 'issue' of the towel rail! We obviously don't wash as often as you do! Our Cosy 6 is running around a COP of 3.2, the App shows the COP and SCOP from the start all the way to live (last 30min). The top of the Cosy is curved so no water, although I am slightly concerned about water ingress through the fan. But it's all guaranteed and there are consumer protections.
that last point was interesting, maybe Octopus have learnt something from feedback because when I had my Survey last week the engineer actually pointed out that the ladder style radiator in my bathroom would be ineffectual in a Heat pump system and put in the configuration to change it to a vertical panel type for the bathroom.
they have definitely got warmer since I bled the radiators but as others have pointed out they’re not really designed to push out large amounts of heat as they don’t have huge surface areas other than the parts covered by towels.
I guess we have gone a bit extreem. We have solar, battery and MVHR. Our towel rails (not radiators) have electric elements and are triggered by motion sensors to come on for 15m if the shower is used. its working very well for us.
" have electric elements and are triggered by motion sensors to come on for 15m if the shower is used" ====== That's got to qualify for 'Master Geek' award 😉
@@sergiotavares8736 I am using Loxone sensors as part of our install, these monitor movement but also light levels and ausio but you really don't need all that smart stuff for this use case.
@@JonathanTracey I think it was probably worth it. We started with a very poor building that had no ventilation and was damp with mould problems. That caused us to go to the extra levels that we have. We would have had to fit 5 extractors (3 bathrooms, kitchen and utility). The MVHR hardware was just over £4k and quite a tricky install. We have changed so much that it is hard to say how much a single tech like MVHR made but I can say that our home is warm and just so comfortable. It is still a building site to be frank but when we go to other houses we realise just how comfortable out home is for temperature and humidity.
On the mmi, note that you were only viewing the heating kwh and therefore COP. If you turn the right dial, you get the figures for hot water, and turn again and it combined data.
I have identical system as you Loving your videos Having issues with the water not reheating when it’s been set to do so. Set to reheat at 44c but dosent and like tonight filled bath MMI said 44c but only got 3 inch of water then water dropped to 21c in 2.43mins
@ Yes called them They been out 3 times now last time was Friday just gone. All they doing is going in MMI telling it to reheat at 44c. I can do that. I’m thinking it must be 1 of 2 things Faulty thermostat in tank Faulty MMI Dose your water reheat Jon with MMI set to do so?
As for the towel rads, what about keeping the rads and adding a supplemental electric element. If your lucky you may be able to swap a 90° elbow for a T and fit the element up from the bottom. You could then have heated rails in the summer when the space heating isn't in op as well as boosting the winter temp? Have a look at Flowmaster 263TF for example, £24 at Screwfix, claims temp range 40°-70°
I agree about App and I get same COP around 3.2 - is it low because it includes hot water? My problem is I have low water flow - 12 litres min from cold tap but less than 7 from one shower. Octopus been back a number of times and are still looking into it. I got my neighbour to time filling my 10 litre bucket - he got 30 seconds so 20 litres a minute. Therefore not a water-board problem. I know they put a pressure restricter on the hot and it only gives 2 bar, but I didn't think they restricted the cold pressure.
i’m sure the COP will improve overtime once we get a bit more data under our belt. it does sound strange to have such a low flow of water. Have octopus been back out to have a look at it.
@@JonathanTracey Yes they have been back a number of times with 'different pairs of eyes' and are still puzzling over it. I am actually wondering now if the stop-cock is faulty - we did have a pressure surge during commisioning, which burst a hand basin flexible pipe - could it also have damaged the stop-cock? Clutching at straws I suppose.
I agree with all the points except I'm not arsed about the towel rail 😂 The unit should slope and its pretty ugly. I've got down the homeassistant route for the cop data I agree, the app should just tell you it all. Feels pretty out of date on day one install
In our house we ended up getting thinner bigger towels and just hang them over the bannister or wherever. The old thick towels were too hard to dry and would clog up the radiators making the room colder. They could go smelly too if left damp for too long and I was getting fed up of having to disinfect them!
Despite having a 4 bed detached, we'd struggle to get a HP near where the old boiler was. Also we have 10 microbore radiator pipes. Finally, it's quite a modestly sized property. Loosing the airing cupboard would be a disaster. Appreciate they may work for a certain people and their homes / circumstances, but I can't help thinking there has to be a better solution? Excluding standing Charge, 2023's gas bill was £493. With being nearly at the end of 2024, we are at £357. I did invest in loft legs, proper non compressed 300mm of insulation in the summer, and maybe that's helped a bit? I just struggle to see how we'd achieve any kind of payback?
@@stuartburns8657 I think the argument is that the work needs doing anyway, so when you sell the house it would be worth more. Saying that I don't have one. I mainly use gas and have a few split AC units. I was going to get one but the install costs were £6.5k, and even then they wanted to specify a flow temp of 55c and convert my vented cylinder to unvented, which would be an issue as we only get 2 bar on our incoming supply
(I'm moaning because it should have been cheaper to fit one to this house because all the pipework is 15mm copper, we've got 28mm pipework between the boiler and water tank, the radiators are already the right size, we have the ideal house!)
@@jamesdcuk There you have it James. Your ideal property and still looking at 6.5K wow. Not sure about the adding value argument. If and when we get to a situation in which renewable electricity is dirt cheap, then where viable they make more sense. Needing both £7k grants and being dependent upon smart tariffs is too delicate a balance. Getting your 3-4 COP great, but with electricity tried to gas pricing, I just can't justify the expected distribution. I'm getting a proper quote after Xmas, as we have a 10 year old combi boiler. Don't have high hopes for the HP option, so we may end up with a new combi which is a shame
Morning JT I'm having my HP installed by Octopus this week, I asked them about how to heat the hot water, should I use Eddi overnight like I I used to or should I use the HP overnight. They suggest I use the HP first to heat water upto 48-50 deg (max from HP apparently) and then use the Eddi (again in the IO cheap rate period) to top up (boost) up to whatever water temp I'm normally used too. I'm wondering if you were given same advice and if you have tried it?
yes except as we use mixer showers we don’t need hot water beyond 48 degrees. it doesn’t make sense to heat the water any hotter just to add cold water to it for the shower. we then use the Eddie in place of the inbuilt booster function to heat the water to 65° once a week for the legionella cycle.
My Daikin 6kW 'low temperature' HP heats the HWC water to 60C without any resistive heating involved. My nominal HWC temperature though is 43C a) for a nice hot bath/shower without mixing, b) lower temp' gives better efficiency c) Heats to that fairly quickly.
Hi there @@JonathanTracey I have the same gripe about half degrees. Intrigued you say that you can alter yours - I can for the main thermometer on the app, but half degrees don't seem to exist when setting/altering a schedule. Can you confirm if this is the same for you?
I think that’s in the installer settings which I don’t appear to have access to. The installer said that because it was going to be under an octopus maintenance agreement that I would be locked out of those settings.
I think it was designed in Japan? I think there's stuff out there that can talk to the Daikin's API to extract data; I've already been looking into it as I know the interface is a bit rubbish - rounded numbers for kWh used and generated is something I've heard. I picked up another Shelly EM in the recent sale which I intend to use to monitor the consumption of the heat pump. I don't even have a heated towel rail; I just let my towels dry naturally. I always have spare ones. And my radiators are not that hot, even now, with gas; I switched to a nest thermostat that uses opentherm to control the flow temperature of my boiler and since then I think it targets 45 degrees most of the time. If anyone out there doesn't want a heat pump or can't get one at the minute but wants to save some money, it's worth looking at, but you need to wire it up to use opentherm. Nest doesn't do pure weather compensation but I think it does factor weather data into its decision when to start the heating and it figures out what works. I also keep my house fairly cool (around 18-19 degrees) and I use around 6500 kWh of gas every year on a 1952-build three-bed terrace with loft insulation, double glazing and cavity wall insulation added in South Wales solely for space heating and hot water, and I think that's pretty low. Unfortunately I don't have comparison data for what I was using before then.
that’s disappointing. I was hoping the API would give more granular data rather than the rounded up numbers that we see in the app. Maybe I need to go down the ESPaltherma route
Yes but that’s because we’re still finding the sweet spot, we have not adjusted the weather curve yet so it’s pretty much factory default. Realistically we would measure the cop over a much larger period than two weeks. I’m already starting to see a edge up even with one more weeks later this is also combined, of the heating and the hot water system. Hot water is generally a little bit lower so the average of the two will be slightly under what would be expected.
@JonathanTracey Shouldn't the standard installation set the optimum heat curve, weather compensation and flow rate? Or is the end user really meant to know how to tune an ASHP?
Short term COP calculations aren't that useful, they will have been designed for a SCOP so youd have to see how it fares over a whole year to know for sure how well it's doing
Yes however the amount of data that I had to calculate the cop at this point is so small that one or two cold or warm days could completely throw it off. Really this should be taken over many months or even a year to get a realistic figure it’s like driving 100 miles and getting an average of 27 mph when at one point you were doing 100 miles an hour, the point in time data shows you were going really fast, but when you average it out over the whole journey you find out you were basically crawling along
That’s combined hot water and heating. It was also the coldest week of the year so the Heat Pump was working quite hard the following week it dropped off massively once I’ve got a full months worth of data I will publish it also I’m not paying 20 to 30p a kilowatt, I’m importing power during the night at 8.5 pence per kilowatt and storing it in batteries so my cost to run it is very low
I don’t hate it though, it’s way more efficient than previous gas boiler & annual energy cost is around 20% what it was. Even though I also now charge our EV 😂
Regarding data, it's most likely because the longer term average HP user will not be a Geek by default as we tend to be now. Water gets pulled through the HP by default when it rains. Towels drying ? Patience required 😇
I have the same complaints about my Samsung ashp. Smart things is a joke in this modern era. Hopefully the advent of octopus cosy with its remote sensors and feedback to the octopus app will give the traditional ashp makers a kick in the bum .
The guys at Homely energy have invented an interface which plugs into modbus Ashp and builds a picture of the house so it can better tune the weather comp based on today's and tomorrow's weather and the heat loss it calculates for the house.
I find the water on the top of the Daikin and irritant and the design could be so easily corrected. My towels dry ok but I agree about the limitations of the monitor. However, my house is lovely and warm and is definitely very comparable with gas but probably cheaper. Need more data to make a valid comparison. Only had my heat pump since End of September.
I understand your desire for data-I’m the same-but the question you really have to ask yourself is: am I gamifying my heating?! I mean, you wouldn’t really expect Daikin to bundle Call of Duty with their heat pumps, would you? ;-)
Not asking them to gamify the system just provide data in a consistent and easy to access manor. It’s interesting the solar industry realised for people to invest they need to see their investment is paying off. Heat pumps should not be any different
Water pooling on the top is simply lazy design. As you say, the top panel sloping backwords would solve the problem but Daikin are effectively legacy manufacturers who have become complacent, sticking to their mantra of "we've always done it that way" . Heatpump/air conditioning units haven't changed their aesthetics for decades, its refreshing to see a departure from that white square box design by Octopus energy.
I fully agree with you however I suspect they’ve got large amount of data from the millions of units deployed worldwide that says water doesn’t get into it so therefore why bother changing the design?
Folk criticise the looks of the Cosy (which I'm hopefully getting fitted in the near future) but I really think the Daikin is the ugly sister. Perhaps you should get an Open Energy monitoring system? Would have been better to fit during the installation though, and they're not too cheap.
yep each into their own i suppose, if we all liked the same thing it would be a bland world :-) i’m going to look at ESPaltherma over the holidays to see if i can make that work for me
@@JonathanTracey Yes I agree. Also I've just realised that the COP that you calculated would be a combined hot water and heating COP. It would nice to be able to break it down.
Yeah, once I’ve got a good months worth of data or more, I will look at breaking it down, I will then also be able to compare the energy usage and the reduction in my gas bill
I thought as part of MCS you should have an external energy meter. And if the Daikin unit is anything like the Samsung then it will be telling you all sorts of rubbish. The Samsung tells you hours run and some days it says 30hours plus
Heat pumps take getting used to. To run effectively you need to: 1) reduce the flow temperatures both both heating and hot water 2) run them all the time - with a set back at night and 3) optimise the controls/timing. Hot bathroom towels I miss. I don't miss how noisy the gas boilers are. If you move to a suitable electricity tariff, a COP of 3.2 overall still beats gas costs. If you want a lot of data - this isn't necessary but is useful (no one needed this with gas boilers) - there is the ESPAltherma route (possibly voiding warranty), Open Energy Monitor (plumbing and electrical work) or, if they have an API I bet someone has already written an app.
I’m starting to look at the API myself as I’m sure I can knock something together, but I’m also going to investigate the ESPaltherma. The COP is already starting to improve as we get more usage I’m sure once we get a few months it will creep up closer to 4.
3 Problems with Daikin heatpumps: 1) Daikin heatpumps produce a terrible noise. 2) Daikin doesn't know nor tell how much noise their machines produce in silent mode. 3) You will find out, when it breaks down. Daikin support sucks.
Haven’t heard a terrible noise yet when you say silent mode do you mean switched off? Luckily I get my support for the next five years from octopus rather than from Daikin direct
@@JonathanTracey Daikin heat-pumps have multiple sound modes: 1) Terrible noise, that's normal operation mode 2) Awful noise, that 's a somewhat reduced sound mode, for daytime usage. 3) Abominable noise, that's a little more reduced noise, to keep your neighbors awake at night-time. Daikin calls 2 and 3 quiet mode or silent mode, but they are miles away far from being quiet. And nobody at Daikin can tell how loud these sound modes are.
@@reallyme3573Sounds like the installer didn't remove the transport shim, or it's broken. Daikins aren't the quietest on the market but I can't hear mine indoors.
For monitoring I use ESPAltherma , it does mean removing Heatpump cover and plugging in an esp 32 device. Gives all the info you need updated every 10 seconds
thanks will look into it over the holidays when i get some time.
@@JonathanTracey it’s helped me tweak settings so I have a average cop since monitoring in early oct of 3.9 total , space heating is 4.5 .
The coldest day here in November was - 1 overnight and Max temp of 4.7 which lead to a cop of 3.37 and Used 18 kWh s on that day so have reduced curve a little lower .
I think there’s plenty of headroom to raise efficiency on a standard octopus install
Yeah, I wanna get a couple of months of data on the standard settings before I start adjusting things that way I’ll know if my adjustments are making any difference. One weeks data really isn’t sufficient to know if I’m being good or bad.
Is that similar to the Faikin project? It also uses an ESP32 hooked into the S21 port on Daikin A2A heatpumps. I have a couple installed in my units here and they're pretty useful, though I mostly use them for control and not monitoring.
Nice project! I will be looking to put this in soon, I think 🥳
For performance monitoring I use Open Energy Monitoring with a MID heat meter on the primary flow which gives accurate performance data in realtime which you can access on a mobile device, desktop or online. You can also download any dataset you want.
thanks will take a look
Definitely look into getting electric elements for the towel rail. We use them on a timer in the summer when the heating is off and the solar is on. Dry towels are a must in our house!
Will do, I didn't know you could have both systems in one radiator.
@@JonathanTracey It depends on the model of radiator... but it's defo possible... don't forget that most rads will have a connection at each corner... and the water only uses two of them, the vent uses one, which leaves one spare.
Yep I checked online and mine can take an electric heater, now just have to figure out how to get power to them without ruining the tiles
@@JonathanTracey we just drilled a hole into the room next door and installed a fused spur/time switch. Key thing is to make sure you don't use the element when the heat pump is running as it could overheat.
That would probably work in one of our bathrooms, but the other towel radiator is mounted on an outside wall with no cavity that’s easily accessible. I’m not in any rush to do it right now but will come up with a solution. Good call on the running out at the same time, hadn’t thought of that.
I've had a look at the top of my unit, the lip round the top diverts any water landing on top to the run off channels at the front left and right corners of unit.
Most likely to stop this water dripping onto the evaporator and causing it to ice up even quicker.
When’s the same however as the unit is completely flat there is no incentive for the water to run towards those places so it just sits on top of the unit until it evaporates leaving the dirt behind
The top surface is easy to put a level on during installation. I built a roof structure for my tall air to air unit, mostly because we get a lot of hail storms, but it helps for all weather. Just allow for air flow.
I’m planning to do something similar,
Agree fully with the first point. Octopus energy offered me a monitoring system when I had mine installed. I said no because I would get consumed looking at the data and now I wish I had had it. 🤣 Not noticed the towel rail issues.
yeah data is addictive. ours are ok, just not as good as they were before
I agree with your first two comments, the towel rail was always going to be an issue with a low flow temperature but they do dry over time. For me the third issue is the location of the control panel as its very hard to access (and clunky as you describe). Crying out for an upgrade of App so all can be done on the App along with automatic COP readout.
i’m hoping that octopus will integrate it into their tool set using the new Mercury platform then we won’t have to use the Daikin app anymore
@@JonathanTracey Hope so too, so if you are watching Octopus !!
i’m not holding out any hope for a solution in the near term but maybe in a year if they can get mercury adopted by daikin
On our towel radiator I fitted an electric heater that is only used on a timer in summer when the heating is not on, as our HP is on 24/7 the towels are always dry by the next day anyway so the lower temperature is no bother.
Yeah a lot of people seem to have done the same, may have to look at that
Worth checking if your ASHP model has a modbus interface. If so, this is a pretty easy thing to work with. I use the Waveshare PoE modbus adapter and it’s great.
Thanks, I’ll take a look into it
You can buy heat pump covers which look much more attractive and can help solve the sitting water issue.
Not cheap though! £300ish. Guess you could make one😅
Funny you should mention making one, that's exactly what I am doing :-)
I agree water pooling on top of the heatpump seems daft and it means that over time it gets dirty. The app is a bit disappointing as there’s too little info on it, but I’m not too bothered so long as Everything is working. Towel rail yes it takes longer but that’s ok as now my shower room isn’t a sauna. As a retired plumber/ heating engineer I think the pipe work in your airing cupboard could be a bit better especially the one straight in front of the cylinder that shouldn’t left like that as it’s to easy for it to be pulled out and cause a leak. I would definitely get them back to change that. It’s bad practice to leave a pipe unsecured in that way. If one of my chaps had done that he’d be back to alter it.
thanks for the tip. I have a follow-up meeting with them in a couple of weeks to check for any snagging problems. I’ll ask them about the pipework in front of the cylinder.
Absolutely right. With a bit more thought, effort and pipe, you will very able to use some of that space for towels again!
I agree... and on top of that... from what we can see from the video... the lagging is appalling, they couldn't even be bothered to take the old battens off the wall and the wiring looks like the plumbers done it (and not an electrician). Certainly not the sort of work I'd put my name to...
I agree about point 1. Ours is going green on the top and wipe it down regularly. I would love it to integrate with Agile and use the cheap slots to heat the hot water overnight. My wife would agree with you about the towel rails. We might look at converting electric, but it is a faf.
i’m going to design a cover that funnels the rain off the sides. I see in the daikin app it lets you integrate with intelligent octopus go, but can’t find any details. I probably will wait till we redo the bathrooms and covert towel rails then
I would love to have automations that integrate with Agile - although I'm starting to find that since you need to have it running for long periods to be efficient the erratic pricing (especially recently !) mean a lot of tweaking to avoid losing all the heat during a price spike. Octopus Cosy is starting to look like a good idea now !
@ Octopus Watch says I am £35 a month better off on Agile than Cosy. Hopefully Agile will come down again soon. Saying that I averaged 16p kWh of November. Still miles under the price cap.
The octopus energy integration with Home Assistant allows you to get the 30 minute pricing from our agile, so it’s pretty simple from there to build an automation that turn something on or off based on a threshold price that you set
@@JonathanTracey Indeed. BottleCapDave does an excellent job.
The app data energy usage is coarse (1kw increments) i have found after a year of data, that the more accurate wall unit shows 79% of energy use shown on app.
Did you install your own wall unit or are you referring to the MMI?
I agree with the water on top of the heat pump, even when it dries it leaves water marks.
We see that once we’ve had a couple of dry days, the water evaporates leaving behind dirty residue
Temu do heat pump top covers for just such an issue
🤦 of course they do
@@maureenandjohnwhite6228 I'd rather let the heat pump have free air flow... I don't want to risk the efficiency by using a cover from Temu
I’m considering 3-D printing some sort of magnetic attached frames, sheet of plastic. It would sit just a few millimetres above the top of the unit having a very slight slope towards the back so that the water would run off
it’s the Daikin wall unit supplied/fitted by Octopus with kit same as one you show.
an ok, do t know if it’s just me but seems a very kludgy interface
You can tell it's Saturday and I'm not required to be doing anything and I'm allowed to watch RUclips!
I had to chuckle on the third 'issue' of the towel rail! We obviously don't wash as often as you do!
Our Cosy 6 is running around a COP of 3.2, the App shows the COP and SCOP from the start all the way to live (last 30min).
The top of the Cosy is curved so no water, although I am slightly concerned about water ingress through the fan. But it's all guaranteed and there are consumer protections.
lol let’s not get into how often we wash as i’m told by my wife i’m obsessive 😂 how long have you had the cosy 6?
@JonathanTracey 15th of November, so 3 weeks. All working fine.
Good to hear
that last point was interesting, maybe Octopus have learnt something from feedback because when I had my Survey last week the engineer actually pointed out that the ladder style radiator in my bathroom would be ineffectual in a Heat pump system and put in the configuration to change it to a vertical panel type for the bathroom.
they have definitely got warmer since I bled the radiators but as others have pointed out they’re not really designed to push out large amounts of heat as they don’t have huge surface areas other than the parts covered by towels.
I guess we have gone a bit extreem. We have solar, battery and MVHR. Our towel rails (not radiators) have electric elements and are triggered by motion sensors to come on for 15m if the shower is used. its working very well for us.
i will probably convert to electric shower rails as they will be powered from our batteries. how’s rhe MVHR working for you?
What motion sensors are you using, can you say?
" have electric elements and are triggered by motion sensors to come on for 15m if the shower is used"
======
That's got to qualify for 'Master Geek' award 😉
@@sergiotavares8736 I am using Loxone sensors as part of our install, these monitor movement but also light levels and ausio but you really don't need all that smart stuff for this use case.
@@JonathanTracey I think it was probably worth it. We started with a very poor building that had no ventilation and was damp with mould problems. That caused us to go to the extra levels that we have. We would have had to fit 5 extractors (3 bathrooms, kitchen and utility). The MVHR hardware was just over £4k and quite a tricky install. We have changed so much that it is hard to say how much a single tech like MVHR made but I can say that our home is warm and just so comfortable. It is still a building site to be frank but when we go to other houses we realise just how comfortable out home is for temperature and humidity.
On the mmi, note that you were only viewing the heating kwh and therefore COP. If you turn the right dial, you get the figures for hot water, and turn again and it combined data.
thanks, I’ll take a look, still getting used to the MMI it’s a bit of a clunky interface
I have identical system as you
Loving your videos
Having issues with the water not reheating when it’s been set to do so.
Set to reheat at 44c but dosent and like tonight filled bath MMI said 44c but only got 3 inch of water then water dropped to 21c in 2.43mins
Thanks, not sure what would cause that, is your tank up to pressure ? Have you called octopus?
@
Yes called them
They been out 3 times now last time was Friday just gone. All they doing is going in MMI telling it to reheat at 44c. I can do that.
I’m thinking it must be 1 of 2 things
Faulty thermostat in tank
Faulty MMI
Dose your water reheat Jon with MMI set to do so?
Yes pressure ok 1.5bar
yeah sounds like a bigger issue, hopefully they will get it sorted
As for the towel rads, what about keeping the rads and adding a supplemental electric element. If your lucky you may be able to swap a 90° elbow for a T and fit the element up from the bottom. You could then have heated rails in the summer when the space heating isn't in op as well as boosting the winter temp?
Have a look at Flowmaster 263TF for example, £24 at Screwfix, claims temp range 40°-70°
Oh, I didn’t know that was possible. I thought it was one or the other will take a look, thank you.
Won't the heat just escape into the rest of the system if the water is being pumped around (i.e. during winter)?
@@BrendonBoshell Yes it would, but it may turn out to be the best solution by perhaps closing the flow valve in the space heating months.
You could potentially use a smart TRV and a smart switch or relay to close the radiator and heat it up morning/evening as desired @@BrendonBoshell
Hmm hadn’t considered that
I agree about App and I get same COP around 3.2 - is it low because it includes hot water? My problem is I have low water flow - 12 litres min from cold tap but less than 7 from one shower. Octopus been back a number of times and are still looking into it. I got my neighbour to time filling my 10 litre bucket - he got 30 seconds so 20 litres a minute. Therefore not a water-board problem. I know they put a pressure restricter on the hot and it only gives 2 bar, but I didn't think they restricted the cold pressure.
i’m sure the COP will improve overtime once we get a bit more data under our belt. it does sound strange to have such a low flow of water. Have octopus been back out to have a look at it.
@@JonathanTracey Yes they have been back a number of times with 'different pairs of eyes' and are still puzzling over it. I am actually wondering now if the stop-cock is faulty - we did have a pressure surge during commisioning, which burst a hand basin flexible pipe - could it also have damaged the stop-cock? Clutching at straws I suppose.
Yeah maybe get one of the heat geek people to look at it
Another great video
thanks
I have had some 3rd party monitoring equipment installed and it shows that the data reported on the Daikin interface is very inaccurate.
that’s what i am starting to see, what 3rd party system did you install?
I agree with all the points except I'm not arsed about the towel rail 😂
The unit should slope and its pretty ugly. I've got down the homeassistant route for the cop data I agree, the app should just tell you it all. Feels pretty out of date on day one install
How are you getting the COP via home assistant, I can get kWh input, but can’t see the kWh of heat output
In our house we ended up getting thinner bigger towels and just hang them over the bannister or wherever. The old thick towels were too hard to dry and would clog up the radiators making the room colder. They could go smelly too if left damp for too long and I was getting fed up of having to disinfect them!
thanks for the tip
Despite having a 4 bed detached, we'd struggle to get a HP near where the old boiler was.
Also we have 10 microbore radiator pipes.
Finally, it's quite a modestly sized property.
Loosing the airing cupboard would be a disaster.
Appreciate they may work for a certain people and their homes / circumstances, but I can't help thinking there has to be a better solution?
Excluding standing Charge, 2023's gas bill was £493.
With being nearly at the end of 2024, we are at £357.
I did invest in loft legs, proper non compressed 300mm of insulation in the summer, and maybe that's helped a bit?
I just struggle to see how we'd achieve any kind of payback?
@@stuartburns8657 I think the argument is that the work needs doing anyway, so when you sell the house it would be worth more. Saying that I don't have one. I mainly use gas and have a few split AC units. I was going to get one but the install costs were £6.5k, and even then they wanted to specify a flow temp of 55c and convert my vented cylinder to unvented, which would be an issue as we only get 2 bar on our incoming supply
(I'm moaning because it should have been cheaper to fit one to this house because all the pipework is 15mm copper, we've got 28mm pipework between the boiler and water tank, the radiators are already the right size, we have the ideal house!)
@@jamesdcuk There you have it James. Your ideal property and still looking at 6.5K wow.
Not sure about the adding value argument. If and when we get to a situation in which renewable electricity is dirt cheap, then where viable they make more sense.
Needing both £7k grants and being dependent upon smart tariffs is too delicate a balance.
Getting your 3-4 COP great, but with electricity tried to gas pricing, I just can't justify the expected distribution.
I'm getting a proper quote after Xmas, as we have a 10 year old combi boiler.
Don't have high hopes for the HP option, so we may end up with a new combi which is a shame
Didn’t you install a CT based energy monitor for the heat pump?
yes a shelly version, have had a lot of people asking for a video about it, hope to do one soon
Morning JT
I'm having my HP installed by Octopus this week, I asked them about how to heat the hot water, should I use Eddi overnight like I I used to or should I use the HP overnight. They suggest I use the HP first to heat water upto 48-50 deg (max from HP apparently) and then use the Eddi (again in the IO cheap rate period) to top up (boost) up to whatever water temp I'm normally used too.
I'm wondering if you were given same advice and if you have tried it?
yes except as we use mixer showers we don’t need hot water beyond 48 degrees. it doesn’t make sense to heat the water any hotter just to add cold water to it for the shower. we then use the Eddie in place of the inbuilt booster function to heat the water to 65° once a week for the legionella cycle.
My Daikin 6kW 'low temperature' HP heats the HWC water to 60C without any resistive heating involved.
My nominal HWC temperature though is 43C a) for a nice hot bath/shower without mixing, b) lower temp' gives better efficiency c) Heats to that fairly quickly.
Agree 43 makes for a nice shower, and it’s reheat is fairly quick, so we always have 43 degree water available for anyone to use
Hopefully, when octopus gets Mercury up and running, you'll be able to view it on the octopus app like the cosy
possible but mercury is still years away as far as i can see
@JonathanTracey I hope not, I'm currently trying to figure out home assistant unsuccessfully 😂
What are you trying to figure out with it? I’m by no means an expert but I might be able to help.
@JonathanTracey thank you, octopus have sent an electrician out today to change the wiring. Our house/heatpump/battery is now separate from ev charger
that makes more sense, glad you could get it resolved
Hi Jon, have you got a discount code for a heat pump?
I cannot find it.
I’m enjoying your videos and presentation 😊
Dave
yep just give this to your octopus team 24607664613 and they will give us both £100, thanks for using it really appreciated
My neighbour complains they can only set the temperature in whole degrees, 21 is too hot and 20 too cold. They'd like a 20.5. it is a Deakin.
I wonder if it’s a firmware issue as mine allows half degree increments using the thermostat same if I change the temperature using the app
Hi there @@JonathanTracey I have the same gripe about half degrees. Intrigued you say that you can alter yours - I can for the main thermometer on the app, but half degrees don't seem to exist when setting/altering a schedule. Can you confirm if this is the same for you?
I have a Daikin Altherma and you can set half degree increments on the thermostat (and app) but annoyingly not in the schedule !
Yeah that’s an over sign in Daikin’s part, seems one part of the app UX team didn’t know what the other was doing.
JT, what heat emitter did Octopus set up on your system, they told me Fancoil rather than Radiator works better.
to be honest i have no idea, do you know how i can check?
In MMI under the zone settings, you'll see emitter type
i just been through every setting but can’t find that setting, any idea which menu it’s buried in?
ruclips.net/video/wBjx_WqXj6Q/видео.html
I think that’s in the installer settings which I don’t appear to have access to. The installer said that because it was going to be under an octopus maintenance agreement that I would be locked out of those settings.
I think it was designed in Japan? I think there's stuff out there that can talk to the Daikin's API to extract data; I've already been looking into it as I know the interface is a bit rubbish - rounded numbers for kWh used and generated is something I've heard.
I picked up another Shelly EM in the recent sale which I intend to use to monitor the consumption of the heat pump.
I don't even have a heated towel rail; I just let my towels dry naturally. I always have spare ones. And my radiators are not that hot, even now, with gas; I switched to a nest thermostat that uses opentherm to control the flow temperature of my boiler and since then I think it targets 45 degrees most of the time. If anyone out there doesn't want a heat pump or can't get one at the minute but wants to save some money, it's worth looking at, but you need to wire it up to use opentherm. Nest doesn't do pure weather compensation but I think it does factor weather data into its decision when to start the heating and it figures out what works. I also keep my house fairly cool (around 18-19 degrees) and I use around 6500 kWh of gas every year on a 1952-build three-bed terrace with loft insulation, double glazing and cavity wall insulation added in South Wales solely for space heating and hot water, and I think that's pretty low. Unfortunately I don't have comparison data for what I was using before then.
that’s disappointing. I was hoping the API would give more granular data rather than the rounded up numbers that we see in the app. Maybe I need to go down the ESPaltherma route
Just to be clear, I don't know what precision you get from the API; I've only heard that you get rounded numbers in the Daikin apps.
Yep it appears so
So the COP is only 3.28.
based on 1 week it was, for december it was 4.1
Chrome radiators give off about 30% less heat than white or black ones
why is that, surely the chrome is just a finish, the radiators will be the same material underneath?
@JonathanTracey Radiation. Think of foil emergency blankets, or foil insulation.
even if 30% is lost they still used to make toasty warm towels, now they are just warm
The pipes up the outside wall install still gives me nightmares....
Why they work fine, at least they are vertical, have seen some installs with crazy pipe runs
So the COP is only 3.28. Isn't that a bit disappointing?
Yes but that’s because we’re still finding the sweet spot, we have not adjusted the weather curve yet so it’s pretty much factory default. Realistically we would measure the cop over a much larger period than two weeks. I’m already starting to see a edge up even with one more weeks later this is also combined, of the heating and the hot water system. Hot water is generally a little bit lower so the average of the two will be slightly under what would be expected.
@JonathanTracey Shouldn't the standard installation set the optimum heat curve, weather compensation and flow rate? Or is the end user really meant to know how to tune an ASHP?
Short term COP calculations aren't that useful, they will have been designed for a SCOP so youd have to see how it fares over a whole year to know for sure how well it's doing
Yes however the amount of data that I had to calculate the cop at this point is so small that one or two cold or warm days could completely throw it off. Really this should be taken over many months or even a year to get a realistic figure it’s like driving 100 miles and getting an average of 27 mph when at one point you were doing 100 miles an hour, the point in time data shows you were going really fast, but when you average it out over the whole journey you find out you were basically crawling along
164 kWh, is that your house total or just heating/hot water? That seems really high, especially if you're paying 20-30p per kW.
That’s combined hot water and heating. It was also the coldest week of the year so the Heat Pump was working quite hard the following week it dropped off massively once I’ve got a full months worth of data I will publish it also I’m not paying 20 to 30p a kilowatt, I’m importing power during the night at 8.5 pence per kilowatt and storing it in batteries so my cost to run it is very low
I don’t hate it though, it’s way more efficient than previous gas boiler & annual energy cost is around 20% what it was. Even though I also now charge our EV 😂
I agree, but I just miss getting out of the shower picking up a warm towel off the radiator
Oversight 1:15
yep third time lucky :-)
Regarding data, it's most likely because the longer term average HP user will not be a Geek by default as we tend to be now.
Water gets pulled through the HP by default when it rains.
Towels drying ? Patience required 😇
I’m an impatient data geek that doesn’t like water in my electronics😂
I got octopus move my MMI out of cupboard and put on the landing top of stairs
I asked for mine to be in there, less temptation for little hands to try and touch it
I have the same complaints about my Samsung ashp. Smart things is a joke in this modern era.
Hopefully the advent of octopus cosy with its remote sensors and feedback to the octopus app will give the traditional ashp makers a kick in the bum .
Hopefully, the data is all there it just needs an easy interface to visualise it and export if needed
The guys at Homely energy have invented an interface which plugs into modbus Ashp and builds a picture of the house so it can better tune the weather comp based on today's and tomorrow's weather and the heat loss it calculates for the house.
Dare I mention Paul Hibbert and the Home Assistant meme.
sorry you lost me :-)
@JonathanTracey if you like tech and a laugh Paul Hibbert is worth a watch.
He has a lighthearted look at tech on his youtube channel
haha, must be said with a good amount of hip thrusting 😉
I find the water on the top of the Daikin and irritant and the design could be so easily corrected. My towels dry ok but I agree about the limitations of the monitor. However, my house is lovely and warm and is definitely very comparable with gas but probably cheaper. Need more data to make a valid comparison. Only had my heat pump since End of September.
Thanks will take a look, haven’t come across him yet
I understand your desire for data-I’m the same-but the question you really have to ask yourself is: am I gamifying my heating?! I mean, you wouldn’t really expect Daikin to bundle Call of Duty with their heat pumps, would you? ;-)
Not asking them to gamify the system just provide data in a consistent and easy to access manor. It’s interesting the solar industry realised for people to invest they need to see their investment is paying off. Heat pumps should not be any different
Water pooling on the top is simply lazy design.
As you say, the top panel sloping backwords would solve the problem but Daikin are effectively legacy manufacturers who have become complacent, sticking to their mantra of "we've always done it that way" .
Heatpump/air conditioning units haven't changed their aesthetics for decades, its refreshing to see a departure from that white square box design by Octopus energy.
I fully agree with you however I suspect they’ve got large amount of data from the millions of units deployed worldwide that says water doesn’t get into it so therefore why bother changing the design?
All,good, so long as the house is warm then the rest I can deal with
Folk criticise the looks of the Cosy (which I'm hopefully getting fitted in the near future) but I really think the Daikin is the ugly sister. Perhaps you should get an Open Energy monitoring system? Would have been better to fit during the installation though, and they're not too cheap.
yep each into their own i suppose, if we all liked the same thing it would be a bland world :-) i’m going to look at ESPaltherma over the holidays to see if i can make that work for me
You could look into a Homely system if that would work?
@@JonathanTracey Yes I agree. Also I've just realised that the COP that you calculated would be a combined hot water and heating COP. It would nice to be able to break it down.
I’m not familiar with homely, but will go and take a look. Thanks for the tip.
Yeah, once I’ve got a good months worth of data or more, I will look at breaking it down, I will then also be able to compare the energy usage and the reduction in my gas bill
I thought as part of MCS you should have an external energy meter. And if the Daikin unit is anything like the Samsung then it will be telling you all sorts of rubbish. The Samsung tells you hours run and some days it says 30hours plus
i do t think it is anymore, i fitted my own energy monitor in the consumer unit so o can at least get accurate power usage
I agree in this year and app/data heavy world its poor.
Pretty sure it's because they CBA.
You could put electric elements into the wet radiators just to boost them?
seems a lot of people have done that, would be a pain for us as just finished tiling the bathrooms
Heat pumps take getting used to. To run effectively you need to: 1) reduce the flow temperatures both both heating and hot water 2) run them all the time - with a set back at night and 3) optimise the controls/timing. Hot bathroom towels I miss. I don't miss how noisy the gas boilers are. If you move to a suitable electricity tariff, a COP of 3.2 overall still beats gas costs.
If you want a lot of data - this isn't necessary but is useful (no one needed this with gas boilers) - there is the ESPAltherma route (possibly voiding warranty), Open Energy Monitor (plumbing and electrical work) or, if they have an API I bet someone has already written an app.
I’m starting to look at the API myself as I’m sure I can knock something together, but I’m also going to investigate the ESPaltherma. The COP is already starting to improve as we get more usage I’m sure once we get a few months it will creep up closer to 4.
3 Problems with Daikin heatpumps:
1) Daikin heatpumps produce a terrible noise.
2) Daikin doesn't know nor tell how much noise their machines produce in silent mode.
3) You will find out, when it breaks down. Daikin support sucks.
Haven’t heard a terrible noise yet when you say silent mode do you mean switched off? Luckily I get my support for the next five years from octopus rather than from Daikin direct
@@JonathanTracey
Daikin heat-pumps have multiple sound modes:
1) Terrible noise, that's normal operation mode
2) Awful noise, that 's a somewhat reduced sound mode, for daytime usage.
3) Abominable noise, that's a little more reduced noise, to keep your neighbors awake at night-time.
Daikin calls 2 and 3 quiet mode or silent mode, but they are miles away far from being quiet.
And nobody at Daikin can tell how loud these sound modes are.
@@reallyme3573Sounds like the installer didn't remove the transport shim, or it's broken. Daikins aren't the quietest on the market but I can't hear mine indoors.
Must be something wrong with your as mine is quiet, I can hear it if i go within 2m i can hear it.
Once I get 2-3m away its background noise
Man up!
And how would you suggest I do that?
@ Just joshing you, water on top of the unit though🙄😂