@@justinoboyle5767 I never met OS/2 in the wild here in Hungary but I met Windows XP countless times to this day on parking meters, POS systems, ATMs and other embedded devices. Fun fact: the parking meters were setup waaay after official XP support ended, some of them take credit/debit cards, same goes for stores like Tesco and Spar and Interspar with their self checkout POS systems. And oh boy, do they suck big time.
15:54 maybe the ibm os/2 shell is searching "notepad.exe" or "control.exe" in the system32 or windows folder of the otvdm virtualized folder and the C drive. Obviously because otvdm doesn´t come with win 3.11 apps preinstalled in the virtualized windows\system folder and because windows 10s system folder is now system32 it can´t find these files. Only WordPad opens because it is still under C:\Windows\write.exe in Windows 10
I discover this later on in the video. It is searching for the files inside of WineVDM's WINDOWS folder. The interesting thing is that write.exe is not in that folder.
@@uwu_peter I think this is such a strange Windows thing and has nothing to do with the application. When Microsoft Write was replaced by Wordpad in the 90´s, it was easier for the Write users to get used to Wordpad. I don't know how this is done. I suspect that the write.exe is no longer a proper application. Probably the developers have simply changed the program code in the EXE to wordpad.exe using a forwarding command. The new Windows search reveals this a little. write.exe is found twice, once as an app and once only as a command.
@@Spoudey 😮There is no Windows operating system with which you can watch RUclips videos with Write.exe in this folder. 😁😁 You mean WordPad. WordPad has replaced Write with Windows 95. write.exe has not yet been deleted from Windows. Although probably nobody uses that anymore.
Great video! The most likely reason why your WPShell 1.5.1 failed to install is because that source was indeed corrupted. I did a search for WPShell 1.5.1 in Google and downloaded the first hit for download and encountered the very same error with License.TXT when attempting to install WPshell in Win3.1 running in DosBox.(I tried installing it in a Win 3.11 VirtualBox VM and it too failed the same way) I ended up finding a copy from another site and it worked correctly. (ETA: I just noticed that your link points to WinWorldPC... that is where I originally downloaded it from and failed)
I used to program with IBM's Visual Age, it created Windows executables with the look and feel of OS/2. Maybe we could recreate what the Workplace Shell did in the 90's but now for Win10.
Hey MJD... I love these kind of videos, and I love doing retro stuff with modern equipment. I really appreciate your content, and you're always good at providing quality. So, will the WineVDM launch modern apps from the old interface? And, I'm assuming it would launch the era-appropriate apps, too, if they were put in folders within the VDM directory structure. Correct?
@@longlashcoffeecatcoffeecat7551 it would be the same as Windows XP with OTVDM it probs would be harder since there doesn't seem to be an open source alternative packaged with ReactOS either too. and ReactOS is too unstable to daily drive or even use once.
@@MichaelMJD But you did mention that some of the files that were needed had to be in the virtual folder. If it's modifying the actual files where they are it may be more compatible.
@@RodrigoBadin its not native its a neglected piece of software kept in from the start of the NT days in a older video ntvdm fails to do some applications processes that otvdm does aswell.
it works fine for Windows 98 and Windows XP. i think they also made a version for Windows NT 3.5. if you want a cool command prompt try 4NT by JP software. (they also had 4OS/2. I think you can still buy 'take command'
Thanks!!!! Been debating OS to install on an old Thinkpad. Think may have a winner. XP would be interesting as got DOS mode, or keep the 98 install. Quick question do you know if NT 4.00 will work?
The "Write.EXE" in c:\Windows is the real app, while most others, like "Notepad.EXE" don't have an icon and are stubs that run the real program, now stored in a different location than they were since Windows 3 through Windows 7 (possibly 8.x)
OS/2 was ahead of its time. It had all the things we wish Windows would be until Windows XP that is, that is how long MS took to make a good OS for the PC.
Hence why after Microsoft and IBM parted ways during the development of OS/2, Microsoft basically developed their copy of OS/2 2.0 aka NT OS/2 into what we all knew today as Windows NT
you could actually follow a tutorial from a guy named siam alam and he did a tutorial on how to install the 16-bit comptibility layer directly into windows 10 with some of those dlls required
The reason why the "Shutdown" option didnt shutdown the PC is that its not supposed to, as Win 1-3 have to be ran manually from DOS, they arent supposed to shutdown the PC, instead they are supposed to exit back to DOS and that happens when the shell terminates
write.exe in Windows 10 is in c:\windows, but it just opens wordpad.exe which is in "c:\Program Files\windows NT\Accessories". Perhaps it's somehow able to locate wordpad.exe even though it can't actually see write.exe because of OTVDM.
My thought, about half way through the video, is just put the install files in a folder on the root of C: so it doesn't have to deal with the long file path.
I have copies of OS/2 versions 3 and 4, and have the latest version of Arca 5 which is OS/2 and also have a version of eComstation 1.0 which worked fine. The only problem which I have so far with Arca 5.0 is finding the printer driver which will work with the OS.
Wpshell.ini problem you had been having is due to this file is expected to be created from Program Manager's current config either as a part of installation (but you had unchecked this option) or later on with pmtowp.exe and convini.exe utilities. Thing is these probably won't work on W10 as there's no Program Manager in it. So when you took wpshell.ini from 3.11 VM you ended up with program groups and icons configured as they were on your 3.11 VM with an expected consequence of most of them missing on W10.
One thought of why Notepad might have not worked that's different from what others said about System32, Windows 10 just very recently replaced Notepad with a Microsoft Store updatable version, there's a very good chance since it's now "wrapped" with the UWP Desktop Bridge and delivered though the Store that this old app can't launch it.
Try installing Win 2.0 under OTVDM. Also, I'm wondering if that shutdown shortcut would work on Windows 7. Didn't some other program you tried in the past shut down Windows 7 but not 10?
Yes! That was in my “Upgrading from Windows 1.0 to Windows 10” video. I was able to launch the MS-DOS executive and use the shut down command from there and it actually shut down Windows 7. Pretty cool! As for the 2.0 programs, I ran some of those in another video. It’s called “Running Windows 1.0 Apps on Windows 10”
@@MichaelMJD Ah yes that was the video! As for the Win 2.0 stuff, what I meant was seeing if it was possible to run the MS-DOS Executive itself under OTVDM. I might give it a try myself.
I wonder if I should do this for everyday use on a Modern Windows? Even a old 25-year old interface from OS/2 is still professionally relevant to today's standards.
back in the '90s System32 wasn't the system directory, it was only storing a few drivers. *:\WINDOWS was the directory with system executables, and as of now, there are very few applications in the Windows path.
The program for my and XP is Microsoft workplace she'll for Windows NT. It does more than make Windows look like os/2 it let's os/2 1.x program's run under Windows
I would suspect the windows 16 bit subsystem emulator needs administrator access to write to the C:\ drive. Perhaps that is why there are so many errors (I know some are due to the INI being replaced by reg etc).
~at 7:54 you probably answer this later in the video, but have you tried using ntvdm on a 32bit version of windows 10? I'm wondering if NTVDM would do a better job of handling this then otvdm/winevdm (maybe not, come to think of it because otvdm usually uses NTVDM as it's benchmark of "won't fix" issues, but it might still be worth a try) EDIT: make sure you use a 32 bit install of windows 10, otherwise it would fail , due to 64bit windows not having the ability to run 16 bit apps (I think there's a kludge linux can use to run 16bit code in 64bit mode, but noone uses it as it's ugly and virtual x86 / emulators just work better)
I don't like Windows 10 that much, but I can really appreciate the backwards compatibility it has (even considering you need some kind of helper application to use 16 bit apps). Meanwhile, I can't even run 32 bit applications on macOS Catalina anymore.
Now that 1.4 is running I'd try upgrading to 1.5 (or just copy all the files over from the working Win3.1 installation). Copy over the old accessories exes from the Win3.1 install too?
I would like to see a video of BeOS, which was a very cool, stable OS sms could be installed from within windows (sort of trial) and from a cd (Professional version).
I am sure if you copy a working installed directory of DOS and WINDOWS 3.1 it will works. Also could you make a weirdest thing? run winos/2 window or full screen! hehehehe
The installer failed because it's limited to 8 character file and directory names. When you had it in the original Windows 10 extended folders the names got truncated and were thus invalid. C:\users\vm\desktop was all made up from 8 character directory names and so it succeeded. ( Seeing this video now because someone posted it on a Facebook OS/2 users page :) )
I clicked genuinely hoping this would make Windows 10 not suck, like maybe progress was made replacing the shell. Interesting video, but disappointing.
does make me wonder if some of he OS/2 apps ... not sure what the program manger file manger were called... could work under Win10? after all they are 32bit and essentially NT apps... mmmm
OS/2 and Win32 handle memory allocation very differently. In addition, Windows would probably totally freak the first time an OS/2 program tried to execute at Ring1. While many of the API calls function identically, their names are different.
Wasn’t Notepad made a Windows Store app in a recent update, I might be wrong and also I didn’t watch the whole video, but that might be the reason it wasn’t launching.
The reason the installation found so many default applications that don't exist on Windows 10 is because they are linked in the copy of WPSHELL.INI that you copied over.
The source code for WPS for Windows is on Github (unlike the source code for the OS/2 Workplace Shell, which apparently even IBM can't find any more), so....... Anyone daring enough to get it running on Windows 10?
Businesses or other groups who used to run critical systems on OS/2 that aren't able to run on other systems that need something more secure and modern
i interact with OS/2 every day sadly. the NYC Subway uses it for fare payment
Hey, if it ain't broke...
... don't fix it
I'd rather not rely on 30 year old tech for handling credit/debit card payments.
Agree... "PLEASE SWIPE AGAIN AT THIS TURNSTILE"
@@justinoboyle5767 I never met OS/2 in the wild here in Hungary but I met Windows XP countless times to this day on parking meters, POS systems, ATMs and other embedded devices. Fun fact: the parking meters were setup waaay after official XP support ended, some of them take credit/debit cards, same goes for stores like Tesco and Spar and Interspar with their self checkout POS systems. And oh boy, do they suck big time.
BRB, updating all of our work Windows 10 PCs.
LOL
lol
15:54 maybe the ibm os/2 shell is searching "notepad.exe" or "control.exe" in the system32 or windows folder of the otvdm virtualized folder and the C drive.
Obviously because otvdm doesn´t come with win 3.11 apps preinstalled in the virtualized windows\system folder and because windows 10s system folder is now system32 it can´t find these files.
Only WordPad opens because it is still under C:\Windows\write.exe in Windows 10
I discover this later on in the video. It is searching for the files inside of WineVDM's WINDOWS folder. The interesting thing is that write.exe is not in that folder.
@@MichaelMJD maybe it's searching the files in both folders. that would explain why write opens
Peter Strick write.exe is at C:\Program Files (x86)\Windows NT\write.exe
@@uwu_peter I think this is such a strange Windows thing and has nothing to do with the application.
When Microsoft Write was replaced by Wordpad in the 90´s, it was easier for the Write users to get used to Wordpad. I don't know how this is done. I suspect that the write.exe is no longer a proper application. Probably the developers have simply changed the program code in the EXE to wordpad.exe using a forwarding command.
The new Windows search reveals this a little. write.exe is found twice, once as an app and once only as a command.
@@Spoudey 😮There is no Windows operating system with which you can watch RUclips videos with Write.exe in this folder. 😁😁 You mean WordPad. WordPad has replaced Write with Windows 95. write.exe has not yet been deleted from Windows. Although probably nobody uses that anymore.
Somehow, the colour scheme of the Workplace Shell blends well with Windows 10’s system colour (especially the taskbar)
Great video! The most likely reason why your WPShell 1.5.1 failed to install is because that source was indeed corrupted. I did a search for WPShell 1.5.1 in Google and downloaded the first hit for download and encountered the very same error with License.TXT when attempting to install WPshell in Win3.1 running in DosBox.(I tried installing it in a Win 3.11 VirtualBox VM and it too failed the same way) I ended up finding a copy from another site and it worked correctly. (ETA: I just noticed that your link points to WinWorldPC... that is where I originally downloaded it from and failed)
Most built-in applications are in SYSTEM32, maybe thats why all the apps wont run :)
Yeah, or SysWOW64 for 64-bit x86 builds. On DOS based releases, it was just "SYSTEM".
I used to program with IBM's Visual Age, it created Windows executables with the look and feel of OS/2. Maybe we could recreate what the Workplace Shell did in the 90's but now for Win10.
Sooo....basically I spent ovewr 20 minutes watching you install an OS that does NOTHING!
Brilliant.
wordpad is the most resilient piece of software ever written lol
Wow.That"s actually very interesting also I like the video alot
Glad to hear it!
windows11
@@nazifemehmed1859 for what
This is bringing back some deep memories from my dad's work computer.
Awesome video,Michael!
Hey MJD... I love these kind of videos, and I love doing retro stuff with modern equipment. I really appreciate your content, and you're always good at providing quality.
So, will the WineVDM launch modern apps from the old interface?
And, I'm assuming it would launch the era-appropriate apps, too, if they were put in folders within the VDM directory structure.
Correct?
Nobody:
Michael MJD: Check~ that~ out~
install it on a 32bit win10, it'll probably work
Can it be used with React OS??
@@longlashcoffeecatcoffeecat7551 it would be the same as Windows XP with OTVDM it probs would be harder since there doesn't seem to be an open source alternative packaged with ReactOS either too. and ReactOS is too unstable to daily drive or even use once.
Why didn't you use a Windows 10 32bit VM to run 16-bit apps?
Because WineVDM accomplishes that on a 64 bit system
@@MichaelMJD But maybe your issues running with WineVDM could be avoided with native 16-bit suppport. MAYBE
Worth a try
@@RodrigoBadin He can try, but 32 bits run 16 bit trough an emulation, and historically it was much worse than 32 bit emul, so chances are slimmer
@@MichaelMJD But you did mention that some of the files that were needed had to be in the virtual folder. If it's modifying the actual files where they are it may be more compatible.
@@RodrigoBadin its not native its a neglected piece of software kept in from the start of the NT days in a older video ntvdm fails to do some applications processes that otvdm does aswell.
Yes! I'm a sucker for anything OS/2 related.
You may not believe it, but this is the optimal way to run windows 10
it works fine for Windows 98 and Windows XP. i think they also made a version for Windows NT 3.5. if you want a cool command prompt try 4NT by JP software. (they also had 4OS/2. I think you can still buy 'take command'
Thanks!!!! Been debating OS to install on an old Thinkpad. Think may have a winner. XP would be interesting as got DOS mode, or keep the 98 install. Quick question do you know if NT 4.00 will work?
The "Write.EXE" in c:\Windows is the real app, while most others, like "Notepad.EXE" don't have an icon and are stubs that run the real program, now stored in a different location than they were since Windows 3 through Windows 7 (possibly 8.x)
OS/2 was ahead of its time. It had all the things we wish Windows would be until Windows XP that is, that is how long MS took to make a good OS for the PC.
Hence why after Microsoft and IBM parted ways during the development of OS/2, Microsoft basically developed their copy of OS/2 2.0 aka NT OS/2 into what we all knew today as Windows NT
3:31 maybe you must run OTVDM as administrator...to setup properly.
you could actually follow a tutorial from a guy named siam alam and he did a tutorial on how to install the 16-bit comptibility layer directly into windows 10 with some of those dlls required
Wine? For Windows?? What is this?
Windows compatibility layer for Windows
Can... not... EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
I was friends with OS/2, we did everything together. but one day, he got murdered by IBM ;-;
Microsoft shot OS/2. IBM put it out of its misery.
and OS/2 went to heaven
I never knew os/2, but windows 98 told me about him.
Nah, he retired. He is on life support now. He did have a grandson called ArcaOS.
Thank you for the pointer towards winevdm/otvdm.
The reason why the "Shutdown" option didnt shutdown the PC is that its not supposed to, as Win 1-3 have to be ran manually from DOS, they arent supposed to shutdown the PC, instead they are supposed to exit back to DOS and that happens when the shell terminates
THIS.. IS.. AWESOME!
So it's sorta like Program Manager in Win 3x? I never got a chance to use OS/2 back in the day.
You could run that skin on Win 3.1 that's installed with OS/2 :)
write.exe in Windows 10 is in c:\windows, but it just opens wordpad.exe which is in "c:\Program Files\windows NT\Accessories". Perhaps it's somehow able to locate wordpad.exe even though it can't actually see write.exe because of OTVDM.
My thought, about half way through the video, is just put the install files in a folder on the root of C: so it doesn't have to deal with the long file path.
and i still can't find a 9x taskbar texture for classic shell
Super nice :)
I have copies of OS/2 versions 3 and 4, and have the latest version of Arca 5 which is OS/2 and also have a version of eComstation 1.0 which worked fine. The only problem which I have so far with Arca 5.0 is finding the printer driver which will work with the OS.
The image was the black color, so only the blue was on the "border"
Wpshell.ini problem you had been having is due to this file is expected to be created from Program Manager's current config either as a part of installation (but you had unchecked this option) or later on with pmtowp.exe and convini.exe utilities. Thing is these probably won't work on W10 as there's no Program Manager in it. So when you took wpshell.ini from 3.11 VM you ended up with program groups and icons configured as they were on your 3.11 VM with an expected consequence of most of them missing on W10.
One thought of why Notepad might have not worked that's different from what others said about System32, Windows 10 just very recently replaced Notepad with a Microsoft Store updatable version, there's a very good chance since it's now "wrapped" with the UWP Desktop Bridge and delivered though the Store that this old app can't launch it.
OS/2 used to have its own INIEditor to deal with those binary INI files.
Try installing Win 2.0 under OTVDM. Also, I'm wondering if that shutdown shortcut would work on Windows 7. Didn't some other program you tried in the past shut down Windows 7 but not 10?
Yes! That was in my “Upgrading from Windows 1.0 to Windows 10” video. I was able to launch the MS-DOS executive and use the shut down command from there and it actually shut down Windows 7. Pretty cool! As for the 2.0 programs, I ran some of those in another video. It’s called “Running Windows 1.0 Apps on Windows 10”
@@MichaelMJD Ah yes that was the video! As for the Win 2.0 stuff, what I meant was seeing if it was possible to run the MS-DOS Executive itself under OTVDM. I might give it a try myself.
I wonder if I should do this for everyday use on a Modern Windows? Even a old 25-year old interface from OS/2 is still professionally relevant to today's standards.
back in the '90s System32 wasn't the system directory, it was only storing a few drivers. *:\WINDOWS was the directory with system executables, and as of now, there are very few applications in the Windows path.
Just an idea - could you symlink the OTVDM WINDOWS folder to the host folder?
11:26 Yeah, that's not how to copy 😅
also that ini file is an OS/2 style settings file
The program for my and XP is Microsoft workplace she'll for Windows NT. It does more than make Windows look like os/2 it let's os/2 1.x program's run under Windows
Like it, also it should run under full screen win os2 making it look closer to os/2 thanks
I would suspect the windows 16 bit subsystem emulator needs administrator access to write to the C:\ drive. Perhaps that is why there are so many errors (I know some are due to the INI being replaced by reg etc).
Should still be a path command (Edit the system environment variables) in Windows 10. Just add a few. Maybe reinstall.
Thanks Michael
please bring the windows 7 aero shell to 10, thank you :)
Notepad is in the program files accessories folder where all the other programs are in the windows
~at 7:54 you probably answer this later in the video, but have you tried using ntvdm on a 32bit version of windows 10? I'm wondering if NTVDM would do a better job of handling this then otvdm/winevdm (maybe not, come to think of it because otvdm usually uses NTVDM as it's benchmark of "won't fix" issues, but it might still be worth a try)
EDIT: make sure you use a 32 bit install of windows 10, otherwise it would fail , due to 64bit windows not having the ability to run 16 bit apps (I think there's a kludge linux can use to run 16bit code in 64bit mode, but noone uses it as it's ugly and virtual x86 / emulators just work better)
you really should switch to the 32 bit windows 10 for testing software like this, it might be a bit easier
I don't like Windows 10 that much, but I can really appreciate the backwards compatibility it has (even considering you need some kind of helper application to use 16 bit apps). Meanwhile, I can't even run 32 bit applications on macOS Catalina anymore.
Yeah backwards compatibility is a huge plus on Windows, as I've demonstrated in other videos like this haha
What happens if you reinstall it and check all options.
Why don't you install OTVDM properly, with the registry edits and all. That way you can run files normally instead of drag'n'dropping.
Idea: Make a shortcut to the actual apps inside the OTVDM Windows folder. Will it work?
You need to set the execution path environment variable using set from cmd (command.com), in the days of os2, you would have done it in autoexec
That is the set command. Set path="c:\windows\system32\" and so on. 👍
Now that 1.4 is running I'd try upgrading to 1.5 (or just copy all the files over from the working Win3.1 installation). Copy over the old accessories exes from the Win3.1 install too?
Just goes to show how deeply rooted the codebase is
I would like to see a video of BeOS, which was a very cool, stable OS sms could be installed from within windows (sort of trial) and from a cd (Professional version).
Perhaps it's a permission error. Since before Vista. Programs could kinda do as they please.
I wonder if it is possible to use the shell elements from windows NT 3.x on windows XP to make it look like windows 3.x..
i lovwe these videos
Cool. Perhaps if you killed explorer you wouldn't have any desktop conflicts?
I am sure if you copy a working installed directory of DOS and WINDOWS 3.1 it will works. Also could you make a weirdest thing? run winos/2 window or full screen! hehehehe
Weird how Write works, but not Notepad. Both files exist in the C:\Windows folder.
Perhaps it is looking for the files in the virtual windows folder.
There's a sponsor at the beginning
What's the latest Windows version that still supports 16 bit applications?
32 bit Windows 10
The installer failed because it's limited to 8 character file and directory names. When you had it in the original Windows 10 extended folders the names got truncated and were thus invalid. C:\users\vm\desktop was all made up from 8 character directory names and so it succeeded. ( Seeing this video now because someone posted it on a Facebook OS/2 users page :) )
Windows 10 is Windows 3.1 or OS/2
try installing Windows 1.0 in a folder called C:\win1 while windows 10 is running
no kid thats impossible unless you use ntvdmx64
@@vistaman1 shit!
@@macecail but then i think you still cant install it bc you need floppy disk images and you cannot insert one in ntvdmx64
Tey putting bat with otvdm for old programs and put in the otvdm windows folder. That might work.
Can You run sonic's schoolhouse in windows 10?
It’s 2020, Microsoft. Why are you still tying the GUI to the kernel?
They aren't. They just don't make another shell for NT. Explorer is a separate application, and it can be replaced.
WRITE.EXE is in capital letters, but notepad.exe not in Windows 10.
then how do you open notepad
I would bet the name of the folder you were running the setup from was the issue. Too long and spaces.
Idk if you accept requests but use the 50 mb windows 7 cd on the windows 98 computer
Can someone send me a link to download otvdm master?
Search for "WineVDM" on Google. It's the first GitHub link
Michael MJD Found it. Thanks!
I clicked genuinely hoping this would make Windows 10 not suck, like maybe progress was made replacing the shell. Interesting video, but disappointing.
does make me wonder if some of he OS/2 apps ... not sure what the program manger file manger were called... could work under Win10? after all they are 32bit and essentially NT apps... mmmm
OS/2 and Win32 handle memory allocation very differently. In addition, Windows would probably totally freak the first time an OS/2 program tried to execute at Ring1. While many of the API calls function identically, their names are different.
Wasn’t Notepad made a Windows Store app in a recent update, I might be wrong and also I didn’t watch the whole video, but that might be the reason it wasn’t launching.
Only on Windows 11.
The reason the installation found so many default applications that don't exist on Windows 10 is because they are linked in the copy of WPSHELL.INI that you copied over.
maybe it shows the task bar and start menue becuse it may think that those are progman.exe witch it program manager for windows 3.1
You should've tried to kill explorer.exe
Might have been interesting to see if you could get Windows 10 running under OS/2.
The source code for WPS for Windows is on Github (unlike the source code for the OS/2 Workplace Shell, which apparently even IBM can't find any more), so.......
Anyone daring enough to get it running on Windows 10?
Try to do the opposite.
Running windows 10 interface on IBM OS/2
i like your vid
thanks!
I only realised now that arcaos exists and still a closed system, who is it made for?
Businesses or other groups who used to run critical systems on OS/2 that aren't able to run on other systems that need something more secure and modern
Nice
Try this in windows 7, XP or vista
Well I'm developing a old program compatibility one so it might help ya if u want
You should try running OS2 apps on Your $5 Win 95 machine.
OS2 there would be very cool...
I think notepad and stuff don't work cause they used to be in %windir% and now they're in %windir&\system32 .
I think notepad is lowercase now which is why it doesn't work
💭 But can you run this interface on Windows 98? 🤔
OS/2 on Windows 11!!
one of the first comments (i didnt watch the video yet (a few frames or a second or a second and a few frames