Music Chat: Streaming vs. Physical Product--Should We Care?
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- Опубликовано: 15 окт 2024
- As a follow up to our chat on the how the industry has made classical music worthless, I offer this brief personal reflection on the current debate between digital delivery services and the alleged death of physical product.
I couldn't agree with you more, Dave. While physical CDs and high quality downloads have the best sound, I constantly use Spotify for research, especially for comparative purposes when writing reviews, or to preview new releases. I love the flexibility and fluidity that all of these format options give me. And I still play LPs with music that's not yet been digitized.
I am finding that some music I want such as jazz is only available on vinyl hence now I have a turntable again! A lot of music by Horace Tapscott has never been on CD and unfortunately difficult to find - The Wire has done a primer on him - and I recently found one of the albums on CD for under a tenner. on the Swiss label Hat Art which has some excellent Morton Feldman in the catalog.
@@davesmusictank1 Don't get me started on impossible-to-find jazz or contemporary music that was only available of vinyl! Horace Tapscott's elusive legacy is a major case in point. Sometimes the surface noise is louder than the music, unfortunately: think about the sparse textures and subtle pedal effects Ran Blake conjured up on his amazing 1969 Milestone solo piano LP "The Blue Potato," you barely can hear them!
You bet! Some items will never be issued on CD or any other medium… Such as Michael Gielen‘s performance of the Eroica with the Vienna State Opera Orchestra on an Audio Fidelity disk from 1957… the most interesting first movement you’ve ever heard due to a microphone set up aberration that allows you to hear every single note that every single woodwind instrument is playing. Absolutely unique and fascinating!
I buy more CDs since Spotify exist. I stream versions that I never knew existed and I add the ones that I like to my collection.
A great deal of what I learned about music, not limited to classical, came from reading album notes on my father’s wonderful collection of LP’s. I like the convenience of streaming and YT but treasure the earlier experience I had back then.
One year ago I found your channel and found Hurwitz, who could inform me on buying great classical music cds. And I listened everyday and bought your suggestions that were availiable. Now I've got a great musical library, thanks to you. Thank you so much, you made me a happy old woman, whose got lots of beautiful music to listened to.
You are very welcome, and thank you for your time and trust!
My 19 year-old daughter, who doesn't listen to classical music apart from Gershwin, has started collecting vinyl records. She had been streaming all of her music - she still does mostly streaming - but a couple of years ago she discovered used records. Now she buys both new and used vinyl records, sometimes at exorbitant prices. I recently asked her why, and she replied that while she enjoys streaming, she started to miss having something she could hold and display. I helped her install some display shelves on a wall where she can display the record jackets. She's even invested in record cleaning products. Oh, the irony! I watched as she put a record on, and the record was slightly warped. I watched the tone arm slide over the record in waves and remembered how cheap bad pressings were the bane of my existence - not to mention the dimples. The NY Times just published an article on the burgeoning demand for vinyl; there's so much demand now that companies can't keep up. She's got a cheap record player and wants to invest in something that sounds a bit better.
Oh yes, I do find cheap classical LPs as here in the UK - and being careful to check condition, etc - they are dead cheap in charity shops and thrift stores.
@@davesmusictank1 having recently retired, I’m looking forward to getting my 500 classical LPs out of storage and enjoying them again for the first time in 30 years. I’m currently a confirmed CD Luddite, and - in the UK at least - this is a golden age for CD collectors. In the past seven months, my CD purchases were as follows (prices converted to USD for the benefit of the majority of DH’s followers):
Amazon: 28 CDs, average price USD 4.90
Retail shops: 17 CDs (mostly secondhand), average price USD 2.89
Charity shops: 129 CDs, average price USD 0.85
Coffee in coffee shop next door while I read the liner notes, average price USD 4.30!
Streaming is no doubt the future of all music, but I'm sure glad I grew up during the era of the big record stores. I would spend hours browsing through Tower Records and HMV, making all kinds of wonderful discoveries and meeting a lot of fellow classical fans. No website and no streaming service will ever offer that experience. And the books! I kept my Penguin Guides and many others related to classical records and cds. Will younger listeners ever have similar items? I'll keep my physical products as long as I breathe; I just hope someone keeps making cd players that long!
Exactly the same here, brothers from another mother. I still have copies of almost the last Schwann catalogues including the by Artist guide. Since I collect historicals I also have David Hall's Record Book, Gramophone Shop Encylopedia, WERM, and Irving Kolodin's record Guide, 1940, 47, 50. As well as Penguin and volumes of High Fidelity.
Thanks for the clarification. One FYI: Most streams of new classical CDs come with pdf's of the booklet. The majors, wouldn't you know, were among the last to do this and other nice things, such as provide super-duper ultra-HD streams of their product.
I still almost always play my vinyl and CD collection. I like the ritual of it all. Sometimes reading the inserts while listening. I stream only when I'm listening while cleaning the house or cooking.
Apologies for bumping this older video. I’m slowly making my way through your content Dave, and thoroughly enjoying it.
You are 100% correct when you say that it matters not one iota how a person listens to the music they love. It’s their choice.
Lps, 8 tracks,cassettes, CDs, Minidisc, downloads or a streaming services are all available options and people choose which they prefer. More power to them.
Personally I had a collection of lps and CDs around the 1500 mark and sold/donated/gave away all of it, along with my home system just over a year ago before emigrating.
Do I miss it at all? Sometimes. Do I fed the need to start over? No. Do I HAVE to own things? No.
My only option presently is a streaming service used with a small headphone system and also a very decent pair of active speakers. It means I can still listen to all of the music I previously collected, but just as importantly I can discover new music in the classical genre that I’ve fallen in love with.
Keep up the great work mate!
I was at a party once where everyone was talking about how embarrassed they were to have once liked the records that they bought when they were in their early 20s, and hadn't listened to in years. A streaming service is all those people need, because they think music is cottage cheese: once it reaches its expiration date, you throw it out. I can't feel that way about music. I still like the first record I ever bought (Pollini's Chopin Etudes). I'd rather have a CD of it than trust that media corporations will never stop making it accessible to me.
I personally like using streaming services for convenience, so I was very happy the other day when I found out that Amazon Music added lossless audio. I’m no audiophile, but for some reason Amazon’s compression system really bothered me, so it was the main reason that caused me to buy more CDs instead of listening on their app. Now that they have lossless audio, I can listen to Amazon Music more, which is more convenient for me. I still like that feeling of owning a physical product, but especially during the school year I rarely have time to listen to them anyway.
Love your channel, your classical music knowledge really has opened up a box of gems in an endless sea of repertoire recordings (it really delievers, once you compare them , you help trim out the mediocre and even the, sometimes, the profane...). Thank you and keep it up
So here I was, learning about the very existence of Earquake. And ten seconds later, here I am listening to it on Spotify. And man is this enjoyable! Cheers Dave!
Spot on Dave! As for health benefits, a lifetime of listening hasn't done my hearing much good I'm afraid! The changes in medium don't worry me a bit. But I do lament the loss of the bricks & mortar store. I have benefited enormously by the care, interest & knowledge of many record store owners/staff whose suggestions & guidance have been invaluable over the years. I think the value & popularity of your talks is that you fill some of this gap. All power to you!
Thanks for the follow-up David, I think there is a good point here: a physical product well-placed can (potentially) reach a new audience; whereas a streaming product is usually aimed at the already converted on closed platforms. Open platforms, such as pirated videos on RUclips, may be doing the business of publicising classical music in a better way than the major labels. Another thought with streamlining is the difficult (at least I find) to choose what to play next: nothing beats the browsing ability of looking at your shelf for inspiration!
I totally agree. For example, I played four classical, three jazz, and a Dylan CD today.
I’d respectfully disagree with your first point. I’m definitely still a newcomer to the world of classical music. For me the use of a streaming service and the ability to listen to any artist/composer I choose, has greatly helped in my appreciation of the genre.
And it’s so easy to branch out from composer to composer, orchestra to orchestra, artist to artist or era to era. Services use algorithms to recommend music similar to your listening choices also.
as a younger person here's the thing about physical-
I like getting physical product, or at the very least purchasing downloads when it specifically supports the artist, as they see almost no cut from streaming profits. When I see something like the classic recording of the Munch Berlioz Requeim- who am I supporting when I get that? Berlioz? Charles Munch? The BSO, aka the richest orchestra on earth?
It's not that having nice boxes isn't nice in itself but I don't feel the same compulsion as in many cases the artists I'd be financially supporting are long gone, and I don't really feel like I owe like, the Verdi estate or something. I buy physical classical CDs when they aren't available or if something just strikes me about them that seems nice to own.
On that topic, I also like the trend of self publishing as it allows listeners to specifically support (or get guilted into buying) recordings of the local orchestra, and hey, I got the really good Seattle Symphony Dutilleux box out it, so everyone wins!
I totally agree that availability is the key. As of today, you can stream individual discs from the DG and Decca (Philips) Markevitch boxes but can only purchase downloads from the Decca box. What happens if the streaming service decides to "discontinue" the stream in the future? When the Szell Columbia box came out, some the discs were made available to purchase as downloads and on streaming services, but others were not.
This "discontinuance"of streams already happens as licensing per geographic market changes.I've lived on three continents and the availability via streams of music is almost as bad as availability of physical product. That's why I generally preference digital downloads that I have "forever" but can still stream wherever I need it.
I like owning CDs precisely because I indeed OWN them, some for almost 40 years. No computer can ever take them from me. I can rip them to my hard drive, store them as files on my phone, or anything else I like. I need never worry about bit rates, etc. So I do care to that extent. If streamed content can be downloaded and kept without restriction, that's fine.
Long live physical media! The music is actually yours and not being rented from a company. And you have the consistent lossless audio on CD and don't have to worry about unreliable internet connections. However streaming is amazing for discovering new music and very economical. There's room for both. I'd love to hear a CD vs Vinyl video on which physical format lends itself best to the classical genre.
I detested vinyl from the start, and I still do. Limited playing time, fragile medium, scratches, clicks, pops, swish, pricey equipment...it was and remains a nightmare.
David, don't let the LP cult hear that! They insist that an inferior technology somehow sounds better than any other medium.
@@mrwelch2004 Sigh.
@@mrwelch2004 A couple of years back, when I had to replace an ailing cd player, I had to endure the tirade of one hi-fi salesman on the joys and superiority of vinyl. Bull. I still have, and play, hundreds of lps on what was considered a near-state-of-the-art turntable/arm/cartridge combo, and I can count on one hand the number of vinyl discs that offer better sound than their cd counterpart. And then there are the other downsides described by DH plus poor pressings, unavoidable inside-groove distortion and cat-hair collecting on the needle. As for downloads, they have their own issues. One I bought from a well-respected classical music vendor included a split-second break between tracks that were supposed to run seamlessly. I was told it is, or was, a problem they were working on.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I'm so glad you don't buy into the "vinyl is superior" nonsense. I remember thinking what a godsend CDs were when they came out.
Another excellent chat. Yep, I still prefer and buy physical products but do stream for researching. I love both classical and jazz equally as well as other kinds of music. I hate pigeonholing music, it is either good or bad. Oh, but I do like the Dorito analogy. Earquake is to classical as Sex Pistols is to rock.
What's earquake?
You cannot stroke, cuddle and pet your virtual box sets! 😉
I would certainly miss that opportunity, and it would be a traumatic loss, when I'm thinking of not only the recent great SONY publications (Walter, Szell, Casadesus, Serkin...continue the list yourselves) but also those from Australian Eloquence, divulging material not seen since the days of vinyl LPs, especially hurtfull for me personally, though, would be to miss out on the wonderful vocal and instrumental boxes from that incomparable wizzard of sound restoration, Ward Marston, on his own label. Oh, the Chaliapin box - if ever a box deserved the prize for 'Box of the year', this certainly did: the ne plus ultra transfers of the recordings; the splendid commentaries in the accompanying book (we are not talking booklet, but a hardcover book - beating the hardcover books of the SONY publications with several lengths, due to the high (not high brow) level of the notes and introductions); the faultless documentation; all the way down to the aesthetics and quality of the box itself!
I'll spare you my ramblings along the same lines about the Battistini (has recordings dating from 1907 ever sounded so remarkably good?), the Lotte Lehmann, the Fernando de Lucia, etc. etc boxes from that same source. Yes, I know, we have probably entered the territory of a somewhat specialized niche repertoire here. But what a wonderful niche - and, I would opine, because of the quality of Ward Marston's transfers made accesible for a wider audience than music archeologists or sound masochists!
However, why not, instead of playing different possibilities, when it comes to medias and formats, off against each others, be happy and joyfull about their manifold, that opens up for a multitude of listening experiences? Leaving room for us to follow the maxime, wisely stated by the Prince Orlofsky in Johann Strauß' 'The bat': "Chacun à son gôut"!
I miss the liner notes that come with the physical product (though as I age, they are getting harder and harder for me to read), but the advantage of streaming is that it allows me to be more adventurous and try things I might not ordinarily try if I had to drop $20 for a CD.
I wholeheartedly agree . . . with just a couple caveats.
My major criticism of digital downloads is that the moment you've purchased the product, it becomes worthless, has no resale value. Granted, hardcopy media pretty substantially depreciates at the moment of purchase, but it's still worth *something*. One of my great pleasures remains taking a stack of CDs and/or vinyl that contain replaced repertoire to the local used shop and using the credit I receive towards the purchase of an entirely different stack of new-to-me CDs and/or vinyl. As soon as a download materializes in my hard drive, it has no resale value. None. I don't like that shift in equilibrium that devalues the consumer.
You could also argue that hardcopy media have greater longevity, but that's a little beside the point if you have the foresight to take care of and back up digital media.
I don't like the pittance that streaming services return to artists. I know composers who receive periodic royalties from streaming services that amount to less than US$1 after cycles that span several years. Sure, if you happen to be the Red Hot Chili Peppers or Kanye, the bajillion streams of a handful of your singles might generate enough kickback to pick up a few burritos at the local Chipotle each year, but less-popular products-products like so-called classical music, products that are often very costly to generate-aren't likely to return even noticeable income to individual, independent artists.
I use streaming services, but I use them like I used radio of old. If I hear something that I really like, it prompts purchase of the product in whole, ideally as hard copy, but digital if that's the only option available. I almost feel it's an obligation to help provide professional-level income/incentive for professional-quality musicians.
However, note that nothing above amounts to a criticism of how a consumer chooses to consume. Consumers should be informed and then be free to make their choice. The ultimate goal is that they consume, indeed, to keep listening.
Yes, it’s been a mystery to me why record labels don’t treat streaming like radio. I mean it makes some sense to put large back-catalogs there for the risk-free, slow, steady, passive income from the accumulation of long-tail plays across thousands of tracks. But new releases? It feels like financial suicide.
The resale value of CDs is mostly gone anyway as all the shops with the right customers have long since shuttered.Or if you live somewhere like Australia the cost of postage is way more the value of the item for anyone interested.
Mostly, but I still sell CDs to the local used shop with regularity . . . to then buy more devalued CDs.
And the resale value of devalued CDs is still way more than the totally non-existent resale value of a download, which was my initial point.
I’ve never ever bought lps, cassettes, or CDs considering the resale values. Only because it was something I wanted in my collection.
@@2134yanto, I don't buy *for* resale value. Physical media almost universally and substantially depreciates following the initial purchase. I also buy material only because I want in my own collection. That fact doesn't detract in any way from anything I wrote above.
This is a terrific talk! As is the earlier one using Toscanini as an example. I've two thoughts. First, on physical vs. streaming/downloading, I prefer physical products largely because I feel like I don't 'own' something unless I can actually hold it, and because collecting CDs is really like collecting a library of books. Being able to actually 'look' at one's collection on a shelf (or shelves) is different than being able to 'scroll' through it. But I began collecting around two-three years before RUclips became popular and before streaming/downloading became widespread. So maybe people who are young enough to not remember a time before RUclips and streaming/downloading have a different attitude towards ownership.
Second, on 'selling' classical music, part of the problem is that some of the people who are doing the selling are simply condescending. I agree that classical music requires a degree of refinement and knowledge. But if we begin with the attitude that we are somehow 'better' because we have a taste for classical music, then inevitably we are going to end up either: (1) glorifying the fact that classical music is only accessible to 'the intellectual and cultural elite'; or (2) doing ridiculous things to 'dumb classical music down', to make it 'hip', and to sell it on its 'instrumental benefits.' Classical music is a taste, and it is what it is. So I think we, as well as record labels and performance companies, would be much better off trying to share what we love instead of trying to teach or browbeat. This of course doesn't mean that we shouldn't be strategic; its not well-advised to introduce people to the medium with Meistersinger or Berg (or Brrruckner). But we'd be more successful if people didn't feel that we have superiority complexes, and dumbing things down or attempting to make classical music hip don't help. And we'd be more successful if we actually placed our faith in our product, and let it speak for itself.
David- what will become of your physical collection when the time comes? Will it be willed to someone or multiple people? Donated to charity? Given to a library? Auctioned off ?
I don't care. I'll be dead.
I want the physical CD with liner notes when possible. There's something about a piece of classical music. You hear something different everytime you play it.
While I am a child of the 70s and love physical music (LPs, CDs, etc.) as much or more than the next person, the classical streaming service I'm listening to is incredible and infinitely convenient.
I was looking forward that chat! Thank you so much!
As a music addict, i agree. I use both. However, I like these big boxes, collector's items when they are well designed. At a certain level, beyond the music, I am more concerned with the container than the content because for the latter, I can always access it on streaming. That's why I like, beyond the musical content, when you talk about the quality of the libretto or the production when it comes time to talk to us about these big boxes
Nothing will show you the value of hard media when you cant find what you used to own streaming anywhere.
This gives the industry too much power. We used to vote with our dollars. Now? They can regulate what we listen to and watch and when we do so. Younger people are content with their art being spoonfed to them. Older people, not so much.
Good points.
I have Amazon unlimited music streaming and using it with your videos is fantastic as I can check out your recommendations almost in real time.
Streaming listeners are able to find anything and listen to it for little or no money, which means artists can potentially reach larger new audiences. It also means their music is buried in the obscurity of soooo many tracks available, so it really depends on promotion, PR, marketing, advertising, and luck. A shocking percentage of tracks on Spotify apparently have ZERO plays, or effectively zero in terms of audience reached and money earned. (10 plays when 5 are by the artist listening to their own track is effectively zero.) Some platforms systematically scrub low-performing tracks from their service, meaning their music could get taken down entirely.
Mood and study playlisting means people may hear classical pieces they’d never have thought to look for. Large proportions of young people actually listen to some classical on their playlists (again, if it gets successfully promoted for inclusion on them. Playlist maintainers also aren’t going to know about a track that’s not actively promoted to them)
Over time, small amounts of streaming can accumulate and add up once an artist has a sufficient back catalog. It’s slow and steady passive income. Even this RUclips channel is an example: a few thousand views of each video adds up to millions of total channel views once you have hundreds to thousands of videos. It’s still usually not a LOT of money, but more than nothing.
However, besides the disadvantages you mentioned (no liner notes etc.) and the lack of an “album presentation” of track sequencing in most listening scenarios, streaming is a very, very slow way for artists to make money: the label gets about $0.004 per stream (about $0.001 per view on RUclips), and artists (as a group) get their maybe 15-50% of that. (Composers/publishers of copyrighted works are paid separately.) You need to have millions of streams for anyone to make anything worthwhile from streaming, tens of millions of streams per year for even a solo artist working entirely alone and self releasing their music to begin making a reasonable living from it. (This can be across their entire catalog of course, but it’s very hard for new artists just starting out.)
Therefore, if there is a present-day artist that you love and you want to support them, buying their physical product (CDs, LPs, t-shirts etc.) or downloads, and attending their concerts, (and donating directly) is going to give them far, far more money than streaming will (depending on their record deal of course, since they could be getting ripped off on their physical albums too). The more indie/self-released, the more money they’ll be making.
Realize that few classical artists get advances or other financial support from record labels any more (and it usually goes to the ones who don’t need it in the first place). In fact labels often don’t even pay for recording expenses any more, being more of a marketing/distribution partnership once you pay for making your own recording. There’s little or no artist development; with only rare exceptions, labels and managers are only interested in people who are already making money. If you paid thousands of dollars, often tens of thousands, to make a recording, then get a few hundred back from streaming, it’s obvious that making classical recordings is a money losing venture for most artists. For orchestras it’s almost always a donor-supported vanity project, which brings us to donations as the other way to support the arts and artists: especially if you habitually support your local orchestra, also consider supporting individual musicians whom you like who have a Patreon or KoFi or Buy Me a Coffee or Kickstarter or Indiegogo or RUclips channel subscription, or an option to pay more on their Bandcamp. Besides teaching, it’s how they eat, particularly in pandemic times of no concerts. Not many established classical artists have gone this route yet, but I expect more of it in the future, especially from younger musicians.
Of course classical collectors preferring dirt-cheap used copies of recordings by long-dead musicians, plus a little streaming, doesn’t really put any money in the pockets of current-day working musicians.
Also as others have pointed out, the now decade-long vinyl revival is huge, with continuing robust growth year after year. They have surpassed CDs in dollar sales and are on the way to matching them in unit sales too. I think CDs may have also reversed their long decline in sales in the last year or so. Not many classical artists put out new vinyl though (it is hugely expensive especially in small quantities, with manufacturing costs that can easily reach or even exceed $15 for even a single lp plus overseas shipping that can exceed $20 per lp, and often has 6-12 month lead times on production, meaning they need to invest tens of thousands of dollars and won’t see any return from that until a year or so later, assuming it even sells enough to break even).
I enjoy a well-designed, high-quality, physical product. Please tell me how it's possible that a label like Hänssler or MDG feels the need to use CD sleeves with gummed flaps? The self-stick flaps only increase the chances of leaving some residue on the disc and transporting it into the CD player. These gummed flap sleeves appeared in the Hänssler 60 CD CPE Bach Box, as well as the MDG Beethoven String Quartets box with the Leipziger. Other labels wisely use a flap without adhesive or simply omit the flap altogether.
Tell me about it! Ridiculous.
Dave, just curious if the Earquake marketing contretemps is reflected in the two covers I've seen for the cd - the one I have with the guy and his boom box, and the one without...? Was that, too, a discussion?
No, had nothing to do with it.
I have a nice CD library (not anything close to yours, Dave), and while I do appreciate the CDs, it would be nice to not have so much "stuff" to have to move or store, which is why streaming would be an advantage. However, I have many recordings that simply aren't in print anymore and may not necessarily be available for streaming.
What about sound quality?? Is streaming equivalent to a physical product? This I would’ve loved to of heard about it. I mean, we are talking about music which we listen to with our ears. Sound quality matters!
Digits are digits.
Did your “fun” classical music include Carmina Burana? Thanks for video.
Check out the CD. It's available.
I like to "collect" rare neglected operas like other people take in stray puppies. The Bru Zane French opera series, the CDs + BOOKS are irreplaceable to me. Five or six excellent articles, illustrations, libretti with translations. Streaming can't replace that.
Loved the Earquake story! P.S. Remember the RCA album(s) "Classical music for people who hate classical music?" I wonder if those won any converts or sold at all well?
They did sell well--to people who already liked classical music. My mother bought them. She said it was convenient to have a disc of top tunes to listen to now and then.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Interesting, thanks. P.S. Off Topic--would you consider a segment about, say, the 10-20 top- best-unmissable Haitink discs?
Hi Dave, this is unrelated to this video. Will you do a video dedicated to Bernard Haitink now that he's passed away?
I don't do obituaries, and I don't see why death should matter if I do a video or not.
@@DavesClassicalGuide aaah sorry I was thinking more about something like Haitink's greatest recordings but I understand.
@@vjekop932 Whatever you do, don't mention Vaughan Williams! I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it :)
@David Hurwitz - but David, your algorithm and RUclips analytics would looooove it! ;)
@vjekoP- I’ll save you the trouble and summarize David’s recommendations to the best of my recollection. On the whole he would recommend his Shostakovich cycle with the recordings done by the Concertgebouw being preferable to the recordings done with the London Philharmonic. He also recommends his Tchaikovsky symphony cycle also with the RCO. His earliest Mahler and Bruckner cycles are commendable by and large- both w/RCO. He tended to record and record many times over Bruckner and Mahler with many orchestras, which was a noted complaint. Lastly, I think he thought his LSO Live cycle of Beethoven symphonies were okay. Beyond that he doesn’t think he is an all that persuasive in Brahms. He thinks his Vaughan Williams cycle with the LPO is dull as ditchwater. If memory serves there’s some good quality discs of him doing some Debussy and Ravel Orchestra stuff with the Concertgebouw. Hope I didn’t miss anything.
When physical is gone ill stream.i have earquake. It was fun. Weren't other labels trying to emulate the premise?
Here and there.
I concur with Jed Distler, CDs do offer the best sound quality most of the times. The non-remastered direct to CD transfers major companies relied on for reissues in the early days of the CD, not really. But that's been fixed with remastered reissues in most cases.
As for the LP revival, in most part this is due to the "underground music" and "electronic music" labels only releasing stuff in LP format for the last 20 years or more, with the occasional digital download. Hence, if you were interested in that kind of aural experiences, you had to own a record player and purchase LPs. When CD sales started to plummet whilst LPs did not, it gave the impression that the LP market was thriving. It just didn't collapse; for a good reason. The majors jumped at the opportunity, started releasing LPs again (even reissuing on LP what was formerly only released on CD), and with the underground crowd providing continued support to the format, a new fad caught on.
HOWEVER, there are things you can do with turntables and record players you can't do with either cd or streaming, such as playing a recording backward, playing with rpm speeds, modifying pitch, or watching a vinyl pancake turn round and round, and round and round. It can be loads of fun.
Ideally, we should have access to all the options: vinyl, CD and streaming. I wouldn't listen to "Memory of a free festival" by D. Bowie at normal speed, it's only good if you listen to it at 45 rpm or slightly lower (which is even better). I'd prefer listening to a Mahler symphony on CD because sound quality as well as continuity is essential. As for records which are out of print, a streaming service will be your sole option, if any. But a stream can run dry, and digital data can easily be deleted.
So yes, we should care. Being left with only one option is not an option. Viva la diversidad!
While you may not be wrong about the core markets driving the survival of vinyl a decade or two ago, in fact vinyl sales have been on a steady and massive upswing for the last decade or more, with no signs of letting up, to levels well beyond what EDM etc. could support. The year-on-year increases in both unit and dollar sales have been eye-popping year after year after year, now surpassing CDs in dollars and soon in units as well. (CDs have also arrested their decline in sales in the last year or so.) New record manufacturing plants are popping up all over (including new companies making presses to equip them, see Newbilt for instance) and working overtime, and they still can’t keep up with demand, with 6-12 month lead times globally on production at this point (but demand consistently outstripping supply predated the pandemic). Now there’s even a global shortage of the polyvinyl chloride used to make them. There are lots of reissues of rock and jazz classics selling very well, as well as a lot of new releases (though not so many in the classical field). You can even buy vinyl records in Barnes and Noble bookstores. Manufacturers are designing and releasing new lines of turntables and cartridges/styluses to meet demand as well (see Rega and Pro-ject for two examples, also Ortofon). It’s become a legitimately huge market across a broad range of genres. One of its more convincing and influential advocates is Michael Fremer of Analog Planet, who has an amusing, opinionated, and informative youtube channel (and yes he also talks about classical releases sometimes, including for instance the Berlin Phil’s direct-to-disk Bruckner, though he’s far from a classical-focused expert).
(Of course you’re also not wrong about sound quality, but vinyl is a different kind of experience which lots of people really seem to appreciate.)
Agree. CD is great and the best medium but then as I am also into underground music and jazz some of these are vinyl-only or download. Also, some old jazz albums have not seen a CD release such as many by Horace Tapscott.
@@matthewv789 i know and i appreciate the experience as well. In point of fact I've enjoyed the vinyl experience for far longer than CDs, but facts are facts. Thanks for sharing your update on the vinyl market
@@davesmusictank1 You're absolutely right; Some Tapscott recordings are available on streaming services, but a lot is missing. A question of time I suppose (perhaps legal issues too). Cheers.
While streaming is both convenient and practical, I don't trust those who own and control the streaming channels. Eventually, people will be forced to pay for it. I think they'll eventually consider most of the classical stuff redundant and not 'sales worthy' enough too. Spotify already breaks up your listening with tons of ads, unless you pony up for 'premium service'. I think people should hang on to their physical discs, or get them downloaded on to a hard drive, or whatever - you folks know all that tech stuff better than I do.
Completely concur with what DH said - however you consume your music that's fine. Sound quality wise there's no issues now, because if you so wish there is a way for most audiophiles to get streaming or download services that satisfy their requirements. My only disappointment with streaming services was that Primephonic essentially sold out to Apple on the flimsiest of excuses (stating that this was the only way they could reach a wider (younger) audience, essentially ignoring the fact that their key demographic is never going to be that).
I was also pretty stunned by Primephonic’s abrupt disappearance. Still, I am curious how Apple will launch an enhanced version it under their umbrella in early ‘22.
@@Godbluffer I'm not holding my breath on that. I'm using the six months freebie to Apple the demise of Primephonic got me, but I'm not loving it up to now. Let's face it classical music (whatever that nebulous concept means) will always be a niche market by and large. Thank goodness we can download and get physical media from the independents (I'm downloading Alkan's Brilliant Classics edition - all fifteen hours of it for a little over five UK pounds from Presto classics. That sort of economics isn't going to keep the major corporations happy!).
@@curseofmillhaven1057 You’re absolutely right that Apple Music cannot compare with Primephonic as an experience suited for classical music lovers, and they’re well aware of it, which is what drove them to devour Primephonic to eventually present it to their much larger existing audience, in which a niche market could still be a considerable one. I won’t hold my breath for anything 😉, but I do hope it’s going to work!
all mediums are welcome. but a physical disk is preferable because it remains a private property.
I have 1000s of CDs. I can’t count how many times I bought a CD only to listen to it once. With Spotify, I can audition a CD and buy it after knowing I really like it. I have saved tons of money.
Interesting that this video was posted the day before the 20th Anniversary of the Ipod, that digital-file player which basically eclipsed the CD player for millions.
We should ABSOLUTELY care. We should REALLY CARE about our speakers. And yes, streaming is inferior. Maybe I have excellent ears lol.
Even though I have thousands of vinyl and cds, I see that streaming is definitely the future. For the cost of less than a dozen lps or cds, one can have access to entire streaming catalog for a year. Are we to expect the public to choose to only listen to the same dozen recordings rather than have the ability to access so much more (esp. since nowadays the sound quality of online music is (supposedly) equal or even surpasses its physical counterpart)?
You shouldn’t underestimate the health benefits of music. Playing Jonas Kaufmann recordings to cows can make them pregnant without having to resort to a bull.
😁
The bumper box sets may CDs economic again. Have just bought Gidon Kremer's DG Concerto Collection. A lot of pieces there I don't know and am looking forward to exploring.
George Szell's Columbia Collection is on sale for £1,000, so a profit might be made from buying and selling these limited editions.
Keep musicians alive, Streaming is theft! Musician friends had >2million hits on spotify last year, they were paid £35 to be shared between 5, The current streaming model is wrong and unsustainable. Streaming is THEFT
Sorry, but until streaming services get their sh*t together, I think it does matter how you consume classical music. Context matters. Has anyone tried listening to a multi-movement work on RUclips? Enter your search terms - composer, performer, orchestra - and good luck getting results that enable you to hear entire pieces or albums in order, as the artists intended. Broken-up arias and recitatives in an opera? A theme and variations, with 30-second tracks on each variation? Forget it. Because streaming services have made deals with the media conglomerates, it's all automated, and the listener is left trying to make sense of it. Sure, a younger listener has the convenience of access to any number of recordings for free online, but at what cost? The artist gets no money from it, the music is broken up and spit out like a randomized jukebox, and the listener ends up confused as hell.
And don't get me started on the tracklist for albums sold on Amazon...
Try spotify instead of youtube
@@davidbo8400 I don't want to pay for something that gives zero back to the artists
@@joshgrumiaux6820 Artists get something on spotify, but I don't know how much. I understand your point though
I listen to classical music almost exclusively on RUclips I cast the RUclips on my phone to my big screen TV.... I usually try to find a video that also has the score so I can follow along with the score on my screen as it's playing which I love doing ... I have not bought a CD a physical CD in 20 years probably..
Just so you know, RUclips is the delivery mechanism that pays artists the least, our of all the major options in the US/Europe (though it depends on whether you pay for a subscription; but the vast majority of listeners/viewers do not, which these figures represent). The record label gets about $0.001 per stream (on RUclips music) or view (on regular RUclips), of which the musicians, as a group, may only get 15-50% (and maybe none until they’ve recouped any advance the label may have given). So for instance, even if recouped, each member of a string quartet which has a 20% royalty from the label may be getting about $0.00005 per stream per musician on RUclips. Of course Spotify (or RUclips streams from a paid subscription) is a bit better, but not much (maybe 4x as much). If they get a total of, say, 1000 streams on RUclips, it still adds up to just a few cents per musician. A million streams would net them each only about $50.
Would that it were people abstained from these interminable arguments. There is nothing more tedious in this world than audiophiles debating the merits of high-res streaming v. SACD v. CD v. LP, and on and on. I have and enjoy them all for different purposes at different times. If one enjoys the music, no one else should bother telling him the format of choice is “wrong” or lesser than. Wasted breath, wasted space, wasted time.
Yep!
Well, let's get one thing straight-we classical music enthusiasts *are* better than the rest of the human race. Now, with that firmly established, there's a proviso by which we can all benefit. For me, personally, it's the most valuable message Mr. Hurwitz has consistently shared-Music is entertainment. Above all else, it's for our enjoyment.