I feel like literally every issue you listed is just the issue with how 5e has handled adventures outright. Railroad with a final boss that wasn't really in the campaign at all. Tiamat? You spend 2 whole books trying to stop her from succeeding, literally never have a chance to stop it from the get go, and fight her at the end. It's the same thing. It's unfortunate because as a spellcaster, Vecna can be INCREDIBLY involved in the campaign. Project image let's you appear anywhere, look through the illusions eyes, speak, everything. It's perfect for monologuing and threats. He can cast sending, dream, Galdur's Speedy Courier with a note that just says, "Fuck you." Like, it's limitless possibilities.
Lmao I might use this. Imagine being in barovia with strahd. The party kills one of his wives or unfoils one of his plots. A raven or a courier finds you in the middle of nowhere with a letter. The letter just says "Go fuck yourself" in fancy old script 😂
@@hawkname1234the fact is that, being a lich give a lots of leeway, him being blown out means it just reform so you can easily having a story of him regaining his power and becoming more and more powerful and the time the players actually managed to stop him would mean a less magic item or other power he hasn't during the fight, but instead if the players fail it means he gets the power instead of the players.
Vecna's Portfolio as a deity is focused on Secrets. He's referred to as the God of Secrets so having that in there and given some other things in the module without getting spoilery, I can see why they have it.
The whole thing I feel with secrets is a way to tie Vecna with the game and make him feel more present, rather just a guy you see right at the end of the game... Like I already have an idea how I'ma run it... Whenever they get a secret, the players all hear an ear piercing screech, followed by white noise as they see an ethereal version of Vecna commit some sort of evil deed or progressing in the ritual... To give a sense of urgency he's moving along with the ritual - with every secret they get... Because when they first get the Vecna link they see a vision of him - so it would make sense they get a vision of him every time they get the ability to use the Vecna link ability
Just came up with some more stuff lol .. at some point the characters are going to be noticed by Vecna...and then they will witness him making a simulcran (sp?) to send after the players
I also purchased my copy early at my local gamestore and have looked through it since I will be running it at some point for my group. I think I completely agree with this review. Especially the part about all/most pre-written adventures feeling “railroad-y”. I do think, however, this is one of the best linear adventures they have released. I think once D&D players just accept that pre-writtens are linear on their own they won’t be as critical of them. As someone who has used pre-writtens to teach myself to DM, I have been finally taking creative liberties to let my players enjoy these adventures more than if I had just ran them as is. However I do agree with a lot of fans about wanting more and better campaign setting books. WotC really dropped the ball with Spelljammer and Dragonlance, although Planescape was alright.
Made by WotC, perhaps. Alas, the tragedy of 5e is that a large number, possibility the majority, will only ever see published adventures made by WotC and subjected to their design style and restrictions.
@@twistedturns65 Yep, people need to go look at third party adventures like Raiders of the Serpent Sea and Odyssey of the Dragonlords. Both are much better than WotC adventures (have ran most), both are way more sanboxy, and both are from (different) former Bioware developers. Are they perfect? No, they still have the issues of any pre-written adventure, but they have a lot more creativity, originality and most importantly: player freedom.
@@bp6942 I've gone all in on FateForge as my 5e alternate of choice. I could gush about it, and I probably will on my channel soon enough, but one thing that stands out is their adventure design. They seem more... Bare bones isn't what I want to say, but they present a scenario, a cast of characters and their personalities and motivations, the backgrounds have the info you need but don't feel excessive like WotC or Paizo. While some are a tad linear, Agate Studios seems far less rigid in how their adventures are presented than the two big dogs of the fantasy ttrpg scene.
You mention Vecna not showing up very often, and that disapointing you. I gather that Vecna is (to put it lightly) a powerful wizard. Therefore, it would make sense for him to at least occasionally deploy a Simulacrum. If you really want Vecna to be more present, I suppose Simulacra of Vecna with varying levels of resources remaining (since Simulacra can't regain spell-slots etc) could be one way of doing that. Would probably need some careful setup, since the 'gotcha' of "ha it's just a simulacrum" could be annoying. Perhaps if that telepathy/secrets thing were to factor into it somehow to make it knowable in advance where you might encounter a Vecna Simulacrum at a particular location might help?
Vecna isn't a powerful Lich, though... he's a Demigod. Except, his stats in the book are for a "mortal Lich form" which could be beaten by a table of 6 14th level characters... Or, to make it funny... Imagine the Company of Thorin Oakenshield as level 12 characters... THEY could beat Vecna... and that includes "Barrel Bombur"
@saraphys5555 I don't know how you're beating him at level 14, but I ran Vecna for a group of level 20 optimisers from the discord of a youtuber called Treantmonk. Vecna lasted 4 rounds, and the general target (at least for me) for a decent encounter is 3 rounds. The only changes I made to Vecna were giving him access to the abilities of the Book of Vile Darkness, something the description in the Vecna Dossier recommends if you want a more challenging encounter. The book gave him resistance to piercing damage and the ability to cast Shadow of Moil to give disadvantage on attacks against him even if you have devil's sight or true sight. (I got these two changes from rolling the random beneficial properties for the book. I believe his detrimental ones were thwre was a 10% of a death slaad spawning after he cast Shadow of Moil and potions near him became nonmagical). I've never understood people calling Vecna weak.
@@tuomasronnberg5244 Two extra abilities that are recommended if you want Vecna to be more challenging, yes. "While Vecna carries the Book of Vile Darkness on his person- in fact he fashioned his lich form to encompass the Book- he typically has no need to call upon its foul magic in battle. *If the DM wishes to run a more challenging (and more complex) encounter, Vecna may call upon any of the book's abilities* as appropriate" I had him call upon its minor and major detrimental properties, as recommended in the supplement his 5e statblock first appreared in.
The villains being a glorified end boss is a staple of official adventures, I've gotten used to reworking the villain into a bigger presence within the story. But I do wish they fix that in the future, Vecna is an absolute madlad and possibly the most famous dnd villain even outside dnd nerds and could've been an amazing and ever present being, specially with the psychic link.
Yeah, I think Strahd was the only villain who broke that mold as he was meant to be a pseudoomnipresent force that would just keep coming back at every corner as either an illusion or himself
It's important to remember that high-level campaigns are not for newbies. It gives players the wrong kind of idea about D&D. The game is a journey, not a pick-up-and-play.
It's funny that he described the secrets mechanic as very doctor who because i was thinking while listening that you could string together the core of candlekeep mysteries and ths module as a doctor who campaign, using "the joys of extradimentional spaces" as your Tardis introduction
I just started DMing my own campaign and I have Vecna in it as a person the people in the world thinks is the most evil wizard to ever exist but in reality he’s trying to stop an ancient enemy but has lost his memory on how to do that. I have the players searching the world for relics they assume are for evil when in reality are for Vecna to become whole and regain his memory so they can then help him stop the main villain. I have it spanning lvls 3-20
PLOT TWIST: He is the main villain, and the enemy that he's trying to defeat is the hero that stopped him from causing a cataclysm, which made him lose his memories! After defeating the hero, Vecna regains his memories and the knowledge on how to unleash the cataclysm, and the dying hero tells the partu how to stop him. 😂
I liked the video as a review of the book but... from the title I kinda expected a discussion about the "high level D&D" experience from your perspective and from stuff you found online by others.
The book is really pretty. I’m a bit unsatisfied with the map. The large Crystal Palace map feels a bit arty, not as polished as other maps have been. The different aspects of the overall adventure can be pulled out and used separately for individual adventures. I think it’s a great book overall. For the maps, I use an Xacto knife to remove the map, then make a pocket out of heavy paper that matches the color of back cover and attached to it to store the map.
Spoiler!!!!!!: I thought maybe I would scrap that thing that one piece leads to the other and just say after the first piece, there they are u know each location and go wherever u want. So it would be a sandbox and people would be free to explore sigil as they want and continue when they the portal is up again (cooldown of one to two days to planeshift) thoughts?
They did do a big press release a while back saying that they would start releasing all books at the FLGS earlier than big box stores again. So that information was out there, you just didn't see it.
Is it me or do they keep showing the big bad with both eyes and both hands? I can't be the first person to mention this. I have a feeling this will not be a success. Several reasons: 1. Multiverse? You are in a fantasy world, so why have it Multiverse? 2. They wait to the end of the run of the game to do setting support? We have been asking for more setting support for at LEAST 5 years for Eberron, Krynn (which should have been a setting book and not an adventure), and even Ravnica 3. Things they SHOULD have done - A how to make your own mystery in the CandleKeep book. How to set up a heist in GoldenVault. The problem that Radiant Citadel may have just been Sygil. 4. You can tell I have a lot of high expectations for the next DMG and the things they need to add to it.... to include 10 years of mechanics that are in individual books that need to be gathered into the main DMG (Naval Combat from Saltmarsh, MadMax Vehicle Combat from Hell, How to Railroad vs How to Sandbox, How to HexCrawl-Sandbox from Chult, How to PointCrawl-Sandbox from Icewind Dale, "Environment as Enemy" and Survival in your game from both Annihilation and FrostMaiden, how to make a great villain from Guide to Ravenloft, )
I do not understand your point about a multiverse? What does the setting being a fantasy world have to do with having multiple universes of existence? Also, a multiverse, or multiple planes of existence, has always been a feature of D&D. Your other complaints seem to be about things you wished they had done with other adventures, but they are not relevant to this new adventure.
Why are the pages so warped? Every shot shown from the top or bottom of the book shows the pages are horribly warped, with a super wavy pattern from spine to front. I've never even seen it so bad before :(
Im only 2 minutes in so maybe youll prove me wrong, but this adventure is NOT for long time fans. They completely botched Barovia, Dragonlance goes against established lore, we are missing the Hand of Vecna, the Eye of Vecna, the Sword of Kas, and the Book of Vile Darkness. Vecna barely ever shows up and it ignores every single hint and plot point in 5e that led up to this adventure. It threw everything away to make what is essentially a dungeon crawl where every floor is onna different plane of existence
Or you could have secrets be scalable. Instead of granting advantage, maybe they have a dice pool of secrets that the players can pull from and add to their rolls. A small secret is a d4, a slightly bigger secret is a d6, etc.
I've stopped running official adventures completely. Nowadays what I do is strip the adventures for parts, and work in the plot hooks and monsters into my own campaign. And I've wanted Vecna in a physical book for a while now (glad to see he's mostly unchanged from the Vecna Dossier), plus I like the universe-hopping element, so I can use some of these locales if I do a game set in those worlds. I think official adventures are pretty railroady, I genuinely think if you go in expecting to run an adventure EXACTLY as-is, you're GONNA have a bad time. They rely so much on contrivances that do not respect player agency at all.
I run adventure league and just started the book. Problems 1. The villain is hidden behind the scenes until late. But the players know due to the title. 2. The universe hopping is not satisfying. To solve this, I am going Looney Tunes and Magic School Bus inserts. So knock off of Bugs Bunny and other toons to be comic relief. The Magic School bus is the vehicle to hop universes and locations. I will let you know how long it takes my players to get through it. But off the cuff it is looking at 3 four hour sessions per chapter but that is me just scanning the chapters and doing prep. On the secrets, I am printing them out. ONE COPY. IF the player loses it TOUGH. The magic item given out is kind of high. The gold given out is generous IF THEY hit the rooms. My group finished the Shattered Obelisk about early March and it took 21 sessions. Shattered needs some work. Mainly Parts of Chapter 5 need to be in Chapter 2.
In retrospect, I assumed that they held back the digital release for the same reason that movies don't screen their film for critics and embargo reviews, they were expecting bad reviews, I definitely have buyer's remorse.
The clickbait titles are diluting what you're saying, if this was titled as a review then that would be fine. I was expecting a discussion on high level play and maybe how this adventure changes or exemplifies the formula, and now expecting something that I'm not seeing isn't likely to keep people's interest.
Critique isn't a toxic thing by itself btw, you are engaging with the discussion in bad faith if you think that's what they said was strictly toxic. @@khaylinsnead3420
Since Lolth is a true god, she would generally be far too powerful for any mortal player to challenge, even level 20 players. (Also, Lolth resides in her own plane of existence, the Demonweb Pits, a layer of the Abyss, and this campaign does not go there). The players are only able to challenge Vecna in this adventure because he appears in a lesser non-deity form. For Lolth, the players could potentially have an encounter with one of her less powerful avatars, I agree it would be useful to have stats for one of her avatars, though various third-party/unofficial supplements have good stats for her avatars (e.g. Monster Manual Expanded Vol. II on the DMs Guild website.).
I like the idea of running a high level campaign, but unfortunately my friends and I have only played two campaigns (RotF and CoS) so I feel like the impact of the a lot of the cameos, characters, locations, and characters will be lost on my group
If you give item/feat something else to players instead of secrets as is, what makes you think they wont forget about those too? I play with people that forget about having scrolls of revivify and then they're like "oh yeah I could've used that back then, it was down the list here in the inventory "
Actually bit disappointed as and Eberron player as would have liked to see The Lord of Blades or another named character like the other settings got within the book. That said so far the rest seems ok, it's good they refreshed Death House though the proof will be in when my players get up to that part weather they recognise they've been in it before. It'll be interesting.
"Not for everybody" is a boldly positive rating considering how many objective problems that books have. - Absolutely no room for player creativity is not going to appeal to anybody, I think... - Copycat of Vecna´s statblock from Vecna´s Dossier is a pretty lame move. You end up with CR26 creature that is actually CR18 - players are not gonna have that much challange defeating him on turn one i think... - one of WotC executive (cannot remember which one rn) said that this book is also going to bring a lore on the Obelisks mentioned in previous sourcebooks. That was in fact... a lie... not cool man... - the adventure is kinda trying the same effect as the "Out of the Abyss" adventure - to put players under pressure and keep them moving but as a DM, you will have to put a lot of work into the storytelling and narration to keep your players excited, because the end goal really is not interesting enough for players to actually feel that pressure
The horse-sh*t campaign.This f*cking sh*t,is so loose with any reasonable storyline to fit in,each place is so independent without any damn connection and the finally is just a letdown,I mean MY GOSH,is there any reasonable testing?Who will remember those NPC?AND for those who love the old lore is the big slap in the face.NOT RECOMMAND.
I love high level content. I started reading my digital content copy and….its disappointing. Vecna and Kas didnt sit at a table with flowers and have bro chats. Vecna was an SOB and he made sure Kas executed his plan. The art is pretty “basic”. Its gonna take some work pulling from old sources to give it the edge it deserves. Spoiler alert-And this “secrets” idea….like “wut?”. I can see memories, folks souls as part of the ritual. But “secrets”? Frankly, Doomed Forgotten Realms on DMs Guild is much better written.
I like your take on it, agree with most of it. I also don't expect the story to be the best written story ever and the fun of DMing this kind of campaign for me is to pick apart and make it my own. But usually there's something very interesting about the story that pulls me in, and in this case... There isn't. What is very interesting for me is not anything in the story, just the settings, the monsters, the NPCs. I love the Red Belvedere, the Colossus in Eberron, the quest to the corpse of a dead god... Cool monsters, too. But there's not much about the story that encourages me to create around it... I would integrate the settings in a different story, maybe. I don't hate the idea of secrets having power, especially since that is supposed to be Vecna's godly domain, but I think it should be better used. I would make it about psychic power. The mental energy required to keep a secret is larger the more important the secret is. Then the power is what can be unleashed by whoever was able to collect it, not the secret itself. And I don't like the surprise revelation that Kas is Mordenkainen. I would at least give players the chance to find out, give them clues that the guy might have other motives, then have to go after the rod parts before Kas gets them. I'm DMing an Avernus campaign where they will meet Mordenkainen in the first layer of Hell, so it could be interesting to have him appear later and show some weird behavior, like not remembering something he should.
You are way too positive in your view of this terrible module... Not that I think every review should be negative about WotC's lack of unoriginality and completely lack-luster design; but that you spent the first portion talking about the art and cover... c'mon, man! WotC doesn't deserve credit for making a pretty picture...this book is ment to be about the Adventure, and you said yourself the Adventure has some sharp downsides to it. Its not "evil" criticism to expect WotC to be able to do the bare minimum...I know, Im currently playing in a 3.5 game, and comparing Adventure design from 3.x to 5e; is like Night and Day... Back when they had ACTUAL designers working for them, alot of them from TSR, WotC could produce great adventures that could be plug-and-played in just about anything...with some tweaking. Obviously, an Eberron adventure needs to make some changes if its used in Dragonlance, Greyhawk, or Forgotten Realms...that kinda thing. But Iv been reading this adventure, and it is SOOO railroady! WotC didn't use to make adventures like this... and they didnt use to make such lackluster macguffins with no real point to them... My point on Eberron, for example... 5E DOES NOT EXPLAIN SCHEMA! And I have seen sooo many 5E'ers mindcraft their own version of what a Schema is... from a blueprint, to some history text, to straight up "word walls" from Skyrim! ...apparently, NONE of them just went back to 3.5 Eberron "Magic of Eberron" and read what Schema are... yeah. And does WotC at any point explain what a Schema is in the 5E book? NO! Because they dont care, because like all their setting books, it was more about remaking the setting in *THEIR* eyes, and actually making the book a glorified adventure book! Its ok to say negative things about a company...they're not your friend, they're using you to get your money; and thats all they care about. WotC is no differernt, no matter how much they tote the twin snakes of Perkins and Crawford out... they weren't designers, they were writers back in the day; and if its *writers* who are now designing...well...WotC has gone the way of Bethesda... The bare minimum, because their cult of fans will eat it all up. ...also, "Infinity Gauntlet". The MCU movies were a pale comparison to the Infinity Gauntlet arc, and if you read it, I would suggest taking a pen and pad with you, and jotting down all the notes from it, because the Omnibus of Infinity Gauntlet basically has a roadmap of how Vecna EoR could have been so much better, if WotC would just stop following pop culture trends.
@@sirgeilington sure... "Infinity Guantlet" is the actual comic story the MCU used for their Infinity Stone story...but, poorly. Here's the beats... The gods suddenly go dark. It turns out, Odin, Zeus, the Jade Emperor, and the others are all at a summit, because the "Allfathers" have sensed that the Gems of Creation have been gathered. This coincides with Odin revealing someone stole an Artefact from his Vault (the Gauntlet). Meanwhile on Earth, The Illuminate have gathered their respective groups for a combined meeting, because (Professor X, I think it was) a powerful force is heading towards Earth. Preparations are made, and the current Thor is even there (a human who accidentally gained Thor's power), so they go out into space to confront the looming threat. This is the first introduction to Thanos, the Mad Titan. After a short conversation, the heroes attack, and it does not go well... The take-away survivors here, and the ongoing key characters are... Silver Surfer Doctor Strange Adam Warlock Doctor Doom They formulate a plan to dislodge the gauntlet from Thanos, but Doom does a Doom, and screws it all up, getting destroyed in the process... By this time, alot of the Heroes are dead... mostly Wolverine and Thor are holding the line against Thanos... Further support arrives, however, when Thanos reaches the point on the Moon from where he wishes to wipe out all life from... the Celestial-level beings arrive... Galactus, Ego, etc... Thanos is held back, but he wields all the Infinity Gems, so they can't hold out forever. With reinforcements from alien Allies now, a new plan of action is concocted to get the Gauntlet off...and after a hard battle, the heroes win... Except, Nebula has been part of this, and her hatred for Thanos causes her to grab the Gauntlet, and put the Mad Titan through the same pain he put her through... She uses the Infinity Gauntlet...and messes up the entire Universe. The gods are gone The Celestial's are gone And where Nebula was, is now the husk of a living corpse that won't die, because of the power from the Gems. Strange, Surfer, and Warlock come up with a plan, basically they're all that's left, and they are finally able to get the Infinity Gauntlet away from Nebula. Adam Warlock is given the Gauntlet, and entrusted to undo the damage and then secure the Infinity Gems from ever being misused. ...that's a story for another time, but he does succeed. My point here is, these basic key moments and players, can be retooled to make a better plot for EoR. Instead of Strange, Surfer, and Warlock... have Mordenkainen, Iggwilv, Elminster, and Fistandantalus... Instead of Galactus and the others... have the Primordial Multiverse Gods, like Tarkhisis, Ymir, and others. Have the common gods disappear for this summit to figure out too late that it's Vecna, but have Divine Casters get their power from the Lady of Pain. Oh, and have each of the Heroes be from a different Setting... one from Greyhawk, one from Forgotten Reslms, one from Dragonlance, one from Dark Sun, one from Rokugan, one from Eberron, one from Ghostwalk, etc...there's literally dozens of official settings. Play the ending as a sacrifice by the players to defeat Vecna, but when all is fixed, their selves that saved the Multiverse, are immortalised in the Wizards Sanctum in Sigil. That's how I'd rewrite this adventure...atleast, that's my 20+ year DM'ing thought on it. As I said, current WotC are unoriginal and lazy, with no creativity... the fact the book is called "Vecna", and yet he barely factor's into it, is proof they were aiming at the pop culture market. Also, Vecna's stat's suck. Use the god-lich stat's from 3e's Dieties & Demigods...
WotC are unoriginal but your fix is to have them rip off a decades old comic whole cloth. It's tiresome having creatively bankrupt fanboys criticising creatively bankrupt companies
Nice cover but boring story with too many forced inclusive and woke characters. I prefer the original Vecna Lives adventure! by David "Zeb" Cook. Interesting review!
I don't see the issue with more inclusive characters, it doesn't seem they are forced. If they were forced then their whole character would be their sexuality/gender/race. It's not, they're just people who happen to be a certain minority.
@@RealHughMan If you're a lifelong D&D player, you'll have already seen some of the old adventures rewritten, censored, and modified to be more inclusive. If you haven't seen it yet, you'll see it in the new rulebook coming out in June.
@@henryhill7856 tbf your most probably right, and I get the struggle of having something you love changed before your eyes, I personally don't see the problem with including more inclusive characters but I do understand that censoring something that doesn't need to be censored can be frustrating
@@Zantonny😂 Even in 2e, we had people complaining that all drow should be evil and characters like drizzt are forced political correctness/woke/ect that was ruining D&D (I don’t remember what terms we were using but it’s the same argument)
![Lethal Company Music Video 🎵 "Follow The Orders" [VERSION A]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/QeooZB4Z7RA/mqdefault.jpg)
It's funny that the very next video on my feed is titled "How to fix Vecna: Eve of Ruin" 😂
Ha, me too!
me too! ahahah!
As per WotC tradition, their products suck and players have to fix them.
Where is that video? 😂
I feel like literally every issue you listed is just the issue with how 5e has handled adventures outright. Railroad with a final boss that wasn't really in the campaign at all. Tiamat? You spend 2 whole books trying to stop her from succeeding, literally never have a chance to stop it from the get go, and fight her at the end. It's the same thing. It's unfortunate because as a spellcaster, Vecna can be INCREDIBLY involved in the campaign. Project image let's you appear anywhere, look through the illusions eyes, speak, everything. It's perfect for monologuing and threats. He can cast sending, dream, Galdur's Speedy Courier with a note that just says, "Fuck you." Like, it's limitless possibilities.
Lmao I might use this. Imagine being in barovia with strahd. The party kills one of his wives or unfoils one of his plots. A raven or a courier finds you in the middle of nowhere with a letter. The letter just says "Go fuck yourself" in fancy old script 😂
@@hawkname1234the fact is that, being a lich give a lots of leeway, him being blown out means it just reform so you can easily having a story of him regaining his power and becoming more and more powerful and the time the players actually managed to stop him would mean a less magic item or other power he hasn't during the fight, but instead if the players fail it means he gets the power instead of the players.
Vecna's Portfolio as a deity is focused on Secrets. He's referred to as the God of Secrets so having that in there and given some other things in the module without getting spoilery, I can see why they have it.
The whole thing I feel with secrets is a way to tie Vecna with the game and make him feel more present, rather just a guy you see right at the end of the game... Like I already have an idea how I'ma run it... Whenever they get a secret, the players all hear an ear piercing screech, followed by white noise as they see an ethereal version of Vecna commit some sort of evil deed or progressing in the ritual... To give a sense of urgency he's moving along with the ritual - with every secret they get... Because when they first get the Vecna link they see a vision of him - so it would make sense they get a vision of him every time they get the ability to use the Vecna link ability
Just came up with some more stuff lol .. at some point the characters are going to be noticed by Vecna...and then they will witness him making a simulcran (sp?) to send after the players
I also purchased my copy early at my local gamestore and have looked through it since I will be running it at some point for my group. I think I completely agree with this review. Especially the part about all/most pre-written adventures feeling “railroad-y”. I do think, however, this is one of the best linear adventures they have released. I think once D&D players just accept that pre-writtens are linear on their own they won’t be as critical of them. As someone who has used pre-writtens to teach myself to DM, I have been finally taking creative liberties to let my players enjoy these adventures more than if I had just ran them as is. However I do agree with a lot of fans about wanting more and better campaign setting books. WotC really dropped the ball with Spelljammer and Dragonlance, although Planescape was alright.
Made by WotC, perhaps. Alas, the tragedy of 5e is that a large number, possibility the majority, will only ever see published adventures made by WotC and subjected to their design style and restrictions.
@@twistedturns65 Yep, people need to go look at third party adventures like Raiders of the Serpent Sea and Odyssey of the Dragonlords. Both are much better than WotC adventures (have ran most), both are way more sanboxy, and both are from (different) former Bioware developers. Are they perfect? No, they still have the issues of any pre-written adventure, but they have a lot more creativity, originality and most importantly: player freedom.
@@bp6942 I've gone all in on FateForge as my 5e alternate of choice. I could gush about it, and I probably will on my channel soon enough, but one thing that stands out is their adventure design. They seem more... Bare bones isn't what I want to say, but they present a scenario, a cast of characters and their personalities and motivations, the backgrounds have the info you need but don't feel excessive like WotC or Paizo. While some are a tad linear, Agate Studios seems far less rigid in how their adventures are presented than the two big dogs of the fantasy ttrpg scene.
You mention Vecna not showing up very often, and that disapointing you.
I gather that Vecna is (to put it lightly) a powerful wizard. Therefore, it would make sense for him to at least occasionally deploy a Simulacrum.
If you really want Vecna to be more present, I suppose Simulacra of Vecna with varying levels of resources remaining (since Simulacra can't regain spell-slots etc) could be one way of doing that. Would probably need some careful setup, since the 'gotcha' of "ha it's just a simulacrum" could be annoying. Perhaps if that telepathy/secrets thing were to factor into it somehow to make it knowable in advance where you might encounter a Vecna Simulacrum at a particular location might help?
Vecna isn't a powerful Lich, though... he's a Demigod.
Except, his stats in the book are for a "mortal Lich form" which could be beaten by a table of 6 14th level characters...
Or, to make it funny...
Imagine the Company of Thorin Oakenshield as level 12 characters... THEY could beat Vecna... and that includes "Barrel Bombur"
I personally made an Avatar of Vecna stablock because he's a god, but it's the same general ideam
@saraphys5555 I don't know how you're beating him at level 14, but I ran Vecna for a group of level 20 optimisers from the discord of a youtuber called Treantmonk. Vecna lasted 4 rounds, and the general target (at least for me) for a decent encounter is 3 rounds.
The only changes I made to Vecna were giving him access to the abilities of the Book of Vile Darkness, something the description in the Vecna Dossier recommends if you want a more challenging encounter.
The book gave him resistance to piercing damage and the ability to cast Shadow of Moil to give disadvantage on attacks against him even if you have devil's sight or true sight. (I got these two changes from rolling the random beneficial properties for the book. I believe his detrimental ones were thwre was a 10% of a death slaad spawning after he cast Shadow of Moil and potions near him became nonmagical).
I've never understood people calling Vecna weak.
@@The_Crimson_WitchYou gave Vecna extra abilities that make him stronger, and you wonder why people think he's weak?
@@tuomasronnberg5244 Two extra abilities that are recommended if you want Vecna to be more challenging, yes.
"While Vecna carries the Book of Vile Darkness on his person- in fact he fashioned his lich form to encompass the Book- he typically has no need to call upon its foul magic in battle. *If the DM wishes to run a more challenging (and more complex) encounter, Vecna may call upon any of the book's abilities* as appropriate"
I had him call upon its minor and major detrimental properties, as recommended in the supplement his 5e statblock first appreared in.
The villains being a glorified end boss is a staple of official adventures, I've gotten used to reworking the villain into a bigger presence within the story. But I do wish they fix that in the future, Vecna is an absolute madlad and possibly the most famous dnd villain even outside dnd nerds and could've been an amazing and ever present being, specially with the psychic link.
Yeah, I think Strahd was the only villain who broke that mold as he was meant to be a pseudoomnipresent force that would just keep coming back at every corner as either an illusion or himself
Huh. So basically the “Secret” mechanic is equivalent to the Avernus soul tokens. We need more just like them.
It's important to remember that high-level campaigns are not for newbies. It gives players the wrong kind of idea about D&D. The game is a journey, not a pick-up-and-play.
It's funny that he described the secrets mechanic as very doctor who because i was thinking while listening that you could string together the core of candlekeep mysteries and ths module as a doctor who campaign, using "the joys of extradimentional spaces" as your Tardis introduction
I just started DMing my own campaign and I have Vecna in it as a person the people in the world thinks is the most evil wizard to ever exist but in reality he’s trying to stop an ancient enemy but has lost his memory on how to do that. I have the players searching the world for relics they assume are for evil when in reality are for Vecna to become whole and regain his memory so they can then help him stop the main villain. I have it spanning lvls 3-20
PLOT TWIST: He is the main villain, and the enemy that he's trying to defeat is the hero that stopped him from causing a cataclysm, which made him lose his memories! After defeating the hero, Vecna regains his memories and the knowledge on how to unleash the cataclysm, and the dying hero tells the partu how to stop him. 😂
I liked the video as a review of the book but... from the title I kinda expected a discussion about the "high level D&D" experience from your perspective and from stuff you found online by others.
I was hoping for the same
Digging the more uploads you’ve been churning out. Keep up the hard work
The book is really pretty. I’m a bit unsatisfied with the map. The large Crystal Palace map feels a bit arty, not as polished as other maps have been. The different aspects of the overall adventure can be pulled out and used separately for individual adventures. I think it’s a great book overall.
For the maps, I use an Xacto knife to remove the map, then make a pocket out of heavy paper that matches the color of back cover and attached to it to store the map.
It's important to avoid the bbeg to be an evil lamp. He has to be present in the campaign and actively oppose the players to advance his plans.
So it's our generation's "Die Vecna Die"
Spoiler!!!!!!:
I thought maybe
I would scrap that thing that one piece leads to the other and just say after the first piece, there they are u know each location and go wherever u want. So it would be a sandbox and people would be free to explore sigil as they want and continue when they the portal is up again (cooldown of one to two days to planeshift) thoughts?
I like this idea a lot!
i got my copy (game store release) 2 weeks early lol def wasn't expecting that
They did do a big press release a while back saying that they would start releasing all books at the FLGS earlier than big box stores again. So that information was out there, you just didn't see it.
Is it me or do they keep showing the big bad with both eyes and both hands? I can't be the first person to mention this.
I have a feeling this will not be a success. Several reasons:
1. Multiverse? You are in a fantasy world, so why have it Multiverse?
2. They wait to the end of the run of the game to do setting support? We have been asking for more setting support for at LEAST 5 years for Eberron, Krynn (which should have been a setting book and not an adventure), and even Ravnica
3. Things they SHOULD have done - A how to make your own mystery in the CandleKeep book. How to set up a heist in GoldenVault. The problem that Radiant Citadel may have just been Sygil.
4. You can tell I have a lot of high expectations for the next DMG and the things they need to add to it.... to include 10 years of mechanics that are in individual books that need to be gathered into the main DMG (Naval Combat from Saltmarsh, MadMax Vehicle Combat from Hell, How to Railroad vs How to Sandbox, How to HexCrawl-Sandbox from Chult, How to PointCrawl-Sandbox from Icewind Dale, "Environment as Enemy" and Survival in your game from both Annihilation and FrostMaiden, how to make a great villain from Guide to Ravenloft, )
I do not understand your point about a multiverse? What does the setting being a fantasy world have to do with having multiple universes of existence? Also, a multiverse, or multiple planes of existence, has always been a feature of D&D. Your other complaints seem to be about things you wished they had done with other adventures, but they are not relevant to this new adventure.
Why are the pages so warped? Every shot shown from the top or bottom of the book shows the pages are horribly warped, with a super wavy pattern from spine to front. I've never even seen it so bad before :(
Great review and first look at the book! Can't wait to pick it up myself.
Im only 2 minutes in so maybe youll prove me wrong, but this adventure is NOT for long time fans. They completely botched Barovia, Dragonlance goes against established lore, we are missing the Hand of Vecna, the Eye of Vecna, the Sword of Kas, and the Book of Vile Darkness. Vecna barely ever shows up and it ignores every single hint and plot point in 5e that led up to this adventure. It threw everything away to make what is essentially a dungeon crawl where every floor is onna different plane of existence
Or you could have secrets be scalable. Instead of granting advantage, maybe they have a dice pool of secrets that the players can pull from and add to their rolls. A small secret is a d4, a slightly bigger secret is a d6, etc.
I've stopped running official adventures completely. Nowadays what I do is strip the adventures for parts, and work in the plot hooks and monsters into my own campaign. And I've wanted Vecna in a physical book for a while now (glad to see he's mostly unchanged from the Vecna Dossier), plus I like the universe-hopping element, so I can use some of these locales if I do a game set in those worlds. I think official adventures are pretty railroady, I genuinely think if you go in expecting to run an adventure EXACTLY as-is, you're GONNA have a bad time. They rely so much on contrivances that do not respect player agency at all.
Aren't the symbols on the back the runes of the pieces of the rod??
I recognize at least one as very very similar to the symbol of Bhaal, idk if they are connected
I run adventure league and just started the book.
Problems 1. The villain is hidden behind the scenes until late. But the players know due to the title.
2. The universe hopping is not satisfying. To solve this, I am going Looney Tunes and Magic School Bus inserts. So knock off of Bugs Bunny and other toons to be comic relief. The Magic School bus is the vehicle to hop universes and locations. I will let you know how long it takes my players to get through it. But off the cuff it is looking at 3 four hour sessions per chapter but that is me just scanning the chapters and doing prep.
On the secrets, I am printing them out. ONE COPY. IF the player loses it TOUGH.
The magic item given out is kind of high. The gold given out is generous IF THEY hit the rooms.
My group finished the Shattered Obelisk about early March and it took 21 sessions. Shattered needs some work. Mainly Parts of Chapter 5 need to be in Chapter 2.
In retrospect, I assumed that they held back the digital release for the same reason that movies don't screen their film for critics and embargo reviews, they were expecting bad reviews, I definitely have buyer's remorse.
The clickbait titles are diluting what you're saying, if this was titled as a review then that would be fine. I was expecting a discussion on high level play and maybe how this adventure changes or exemplifies the formula, and now expecting something that I'm not seeing isn't likely to keep people's interest.
The title says “eye of Vecna REVIEW” review is literally the 4th word. But hey thanks for commenting, helps his channel grow.
@@khaylinsnead3420it wasn't. Author changed name of the video
Original thumbnail and title said "I disliked high level play: Until Now." I will probably be changing it a few times to see what works best.
Critique isn't a toxic thing by itself btw, you are engaging with the discussion in bad faith if you think that's what they said was strictly toxic.
@@khaylinsnead3420
@@khaylinsnead3420 imagine being so self righteous yet blatantly wrong lmao
I did get early access to the digital content in Europe. Wondering if that was a regional thing?
Skimming through my copy, I noticed it didn't give stats for Loloth in case of a boss encounter.
Since Lolth is a true god, she would generally be far too powerful for any mortal player to challenge, even level 20 players. (Also, Lolth resides in her own plane of existence, the Demonweb Pits, a layer of the Abyss, and this campaign does not go there). The players are only able to challenge Vecna in this adventure because he appears in a lesser non-deity form. For Lolth, the players could potentially have an encounter with one of her less powerful avatars, I agree it would be useful to have stats for one of her avatars, though various third-party/unofficial supplements have good stats for her avatars (e.g. Monster Manual Expanded Vol. II on the DMs Guild website.).
I'm wondering how you might tweak the Strahd chapter.
I like the idea of running a high level campaign, but unfortunately my friends and I have only played two campaigns (RotF and CoS) so I feel like the impact of the a lot of the cameos, characters, locations, and characters will be lost on my group
If you give item/feat something else to players instead of secrets as is, what makes you think they wont forget about those too? I play with people that forget about having scrolls of revivify and then they're like "oh yeah I could've used that back then, it was down the list here in the inventory "
I got the digital early on the 7th.
The maps are good? They are not. There is serious tonal whiplash between chapters as well.
Actually bit disappointed as and Eberron player as would have liked to see The Lord of Blades or another named character like the other settings got within the book. That said so far the rest seems ok, it's good they refreshed Death House though the proof will be in when my players get up to that part weather they recognise they've been in it before. It'll be interesting.
I was hyped for Barovia part, then read it, and oh my, they really fucked up with this module
"Only available in game stores" and the sellers who sell on Amazon of course. 😛
Nice video dude!
Thanks for the warning...passing on this product as well.
Did you change the title
I guess it is the "Eve of Ruin" after all~
"Not for everybody" is a boldly positive rating considering how many objective problems that books have.
- Absolutely no room for player creativity is not going to appeal to anybody, I think...
- Copycat of Vecna´s statblock from Vecna´s Dossier is a pretty lame move. You end up with CR26 creature that is actually CR18 - players are not gonna have that much challange defeating him on turn one i think...
- one of WotC executive (cannot remember which one rn) said that this book is also going to bring a lore on the Obelisks mentioned in previous sourcebooks. That was in fact... a lie... not cool man...
- the adventure is kinda trying the same effect as the "Out of the Abyss" adventure - to put players under pressure and keep them moving but as a DM, you will have to put a lot of work into the storytelling and narration to keep your players excited, because the end goal really is not interesting enough for players to actually feel that pressure
Put me off when they said hed destroy the gods. So the other gods are cool with that then? Hes a god, he doesnt get to brake the rules scott free now.
The horse-sh*t campaign.This f*cking sh*t,is so loose with any reasonable storyline to fit in,each place is so independent without any damn connection and the finally is just a letdown,I mean MY GOSH,is there any reasonable testing?Who will remember those NPC?AND for those who love the old lore is the big slap in the face.NOT RECOMMAND.
It saddening to hear a campaign that's a year long is tiring.
Secrets definitely Chris Perkins influence
Personally I'm underwhelmed
Pretty much the same as all of the official D&D 5E Adventure modules
I love high level content. I started reading my digital content copy and….its disappointing.
Vecna and Kas didnt sit at a table with flowers and have bro chats. Vecna was an SOB and he made sure Kas executed his plan.
The art is pretty “basic”.
Its gonna take some work pulling from old sources to give it the edge it deserves.
Spoiler alert-And this “secrets” idea….like “wut?”. I can see memories, folks souls as part of the ritual. But “secrets”?
Frankly, Doomed Forgotten Realms on DMs Guild is much better written.
It essentially sucks as written, no different from the rest. It can be made playable.
I've read it and it's awfull. Refunded.
48 years.
So you think secrets are daft, but you're okay with the Vecna link 🙄🤗
I like your take on it, agree with most of it.
I also don't expect the story to be the best written story ever and the fun of DMing this kind of campaign for me is to pick apart and make it my own. But usually there's something very interesting about the story that pulls me in, and in this case... There isn't. What is very interesting for me is not anything in the story, just the settings, the monsters, the NPCs. I love the Red Belvedere, the Colossus in Eberron, the quest to the corpse of a dead god... Cool monsters, too.
But there's not much about the story that encourages me to create around it... I would integrate the settings in a different story, maybe.
I don't hate the idea of secrets having power, especially since that is supposed to be Vecna's godly domain, but I think it should be better used. I would make it about psychic power. The mental energy required to keep a secret is larger the more important the secret is. Then the power is what can be unleashed by whoever was able to collect it, not the secret itself.
And I don't like the surprise revelation that Kas is Mordenkainen. I would at least give players the chance to find out, give them clues that the guy might have other motives, then have to go after the rod parts before Kas gets them. I'm DMing an Avernus campaign where they will meet Mordenkainen in the first layer of Hell, so it could be interesting to have him appear later and show some weird behavior, like not remembering something he should.
I'd watch more of this vid but I'm getting visual whiplash from the editing :/
Well, I suppose we can just all hope this book fails catastrophicly.
You are way too positive in your view of this terrible module...
Not that I think every review should be negative about WotC's lack of unoriginality and completely lack-luster design; but that you spent the first portion talking about the art and cover... c'mon, man! WotC doesn't deserve credit for making a pretty picture...this book is ment to be about the Adventure, and you said yourself the Adventure has some sharp downsides to it. Its not "evil" criticism to expect WotC to be able to do the bare minimum...I know, Im currently playing in a 3.5 game, and comparing Adventure design from 3.x to 5e; is like Night and Day... Back when they had ACTUAL designers working for them, alot of them from TSR, WotC could produce great adventures that could be plug-and-played in just about anything...with some tweaking.
Obviously, an Eberron adventure needs to make some changes if its used in Dragonlance, Greyhawk, or Forgotten Realms...that kinda thing.
But Iv been reading this adventure, and it is SOOO railroady! WotC didn't use to make adventures like this... and they didnt use to make such lackluster macguffins with no real point to them...
My point on Eberron, for example...
5E DOES NOT EXPLAIN SCHEMA! And I have seen sooo many 5E'ers mindcraft their own version of what a Schema is... from a blueprint, to some history text, to straight up "word walls" from Skyrim!
...apparently, NONE of them just went back to 3.5 Eberron "Magic of Eberron" and read what Schema are... yeah. And does WotC at any point explain what a Schema is in the 5E book? NO! Because they dont care, because like all their setting books, it was more about remaking the setting in *THEIR* eyes, and actually making the book a glorified adventure book!
Its ok to say negative things about a company...they're not your friend, they're using you to get your money; and thats all they care about.
WotC is no differernt, no matter how much they tote the twin snakes of Perkins and Crawford out... they weren't designers, they were writers back in the day; and if its *writers* who are now designing...well...WotC has gone the way of Bethesda... The bare minimum, because their cult of fans will eat it all up.
...also, "Infinity Gauntlet".
The MCU movies were a pale comparison to the Infinity Gauntlet arc, and if you read it, I would suggest taking a pen and pad with you, and jotting down all the notes from it, because the Omnibus of Infinity Gauntlet basically has a roadmap of how Vecna EoR could have been so much better, if WotC would just stop following pop culture trends.
Elaborate on your last point please 🥲
@@sirgeilington sure...
"Infinity Guantlet" is the actual comic story the MCU used for their Infinity Stone story...but, poorly. Here's the beats...
The gods suddenly go dark. It turns out, Odin, Zeus, the Jade Emperor, and the others are all at a summit, because the "Allfathers" have sensed that the Gems of Creation have been gathered. This coincides with Odin revealing someone stole an Artefact from his Vault (the Gauntlet).
Meanwhile on Earth,
The Illuminate have gathered their respective groups for a combined meeting, because (Professor X, I think it was) a powerful force is heading towards Earth.
Preparations are made, and the current Thor is even there (a human who accidentally gained Thor's power), so they go out into space to confront the looming threat.
This is the first introduction to Thanos, the Mad Titan. After a short conversation, the heroes attack, and it does not go well...
The take-away survivors here, and the ongoing key characters are...
Silver Surfer
Doctor Strange
Adam Warlock
Doctor Doom
They formulate a plan to dislodge the gauntlet from Thanos, but Doom does a Doom, and screws it all up, getting destroyed in the process...
By this time, alot of the Heroes are dead... mostly Wolverine and Thor are holding the line against Thanos...
Further support arrives, however, when Thanos reaches the point on the Moon from where he wishes to wipe out all life from... the Celestial-level beings arrive... Galactus, Ego, etc...
Thanos is held back, but he wields all the Infinity Gems, so they can't hold out forever.
With reinforcements from alien Allies now, a new plan of action is concocted to get the Gauntlet off...and after a hard battle, the heroes win...
Except, Nebula has been part of this, and her hatred for Thanos causes her to grab the Gauntlet, and put the Mad Titan through the same pain he put her through...
She uses the Infinity Gauntlet...and messes up the entire Universe.
The gods are gone
The Celestial's are gone
And where Nebula was, is now the husk of a living corpse that won't die, because of the power from the Gems.
Strange, Surfer, and Warlock come up with a plan, basically they're all that's left, and they are finally able to get the Infinity Gauntlet away from Nebula.
Adam Warlock is given the Gauntlet, and entrusted to undo the damage and then secure the Infinity Gems from ever being misused.
...that's a story for another time, but he does succeed.
My point here is, these basic key moments and players, can be retooled to make a better plot for EoR.
Instead of Strange, Surfer, and Warlock... have Mordenkainen, Iggwilv, Elminster, and Fistandantalus...
Instead of Galactus and the others... have the Primordial Multiverse Gods, like Tarkhisis, Ymir, and others.
Have the common gods disappear for this summit to figure out too late that it's Vecna, but have Divine Casters get their power from the Lady of Pain.
Oh, and have each of the Heroes be from a different Setting... one from Greyhawk, one from Forgotten Reslms, one from Dragonlance, one from Dark Sun, one from Rokugan, one from Eberron, one from Ghostwalk, etc...there's literally dozens of official settings.
Play the ending as a sacrifice by the players to defeat Vecna, but when all is fixed, their selves that saved the Multiverse, are immortalised in the Wizards Sanctum in Sigil.
That's how I'd rewrite this adventure...atleast, that's my 20+ year DM'ing thought on it.
As I said, current WotC are unoriginal and lazy, with no creativity... the fact the book is called "Vecna", and yet he barely factor's into it, is proof they were aiming at the pop culture market.
Also, Vecna's stat's suck.
Use the god-lich stat's from 3e's Dieties & Demigods...
WotC are unoriginal but your fix is to have them rip off a decades old comic whole cloth. It's tiresome having creatively bankrupt fanboys criticising creatively bankrupt companies
CATS!
Genderbended vecna sounds interesting
The maps suck.
How much Wizard paid you, to try and sell us that shit!
Nice cover but boring story with too many forced inclusive and woke characters. I prefer the original Vecna Lives adventure! by David "Zeb" Cook.
Interesting review!
I don't see the issue with more inclusive characters, it doesn't seem they are forced. If they were forced then their whole character would be their sexuality/gender/race. It's not, they're just people who happen to be a certain minority.
@@RealHughMan If you're a lifelong D&D player, you'll have already seen some of the old adventures rewritten, censored, and modified to be more inclusive. If you haven't seen it yet, you'll see it in the new rulebook coming out in June.
@@henryhill7856 tbf your most probably right, and I get the struggle of having something you love changed before your eyes, I personally don't see the problem with including more inclusive characters but I do understand that censoring something that doesn't need to be censored can be frustrating
Someone is still mad they altered the Vistani
@@Zantonny😂 Even in 2e, we had people complaining that all drow should be evil and characters like drizzt are forced political correctness/woke/ect that was ruining D&D (I don’t remember what terms we were using but it’s the same argument)