Why should speaker cables have a minimum length?
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- Опубликовано: 17 окт 2018
- The engineers at Naim Audio want to make sure your speaker cables are not too short. And check out our newest RUclips channel / @octaverecordsanddsdst... Octave Records.
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i found some old high tension wires discarded in the forest and dragged them home . they are about an inch and a half in diameter. my amp is a 500, 000 watt unit run by a diesel engine from a ship . the speakers are old fog horns . i did have a lot of difficulty hooking every thing up but the sound is incredible .
true story .
hahahaha nice...yeah those are cables
Wireless speakers are creating mini black holes all around the world
The reason Naim Audio suggest a certain length of speaker cable is because the series inductance and capacitance in the cable replaces what is normally found in the Amplifier output design, which is not used in their output stage design.
Again, this is the correct answer.
An example of Naim's poor design.
I've always found their amplifiers to sound splashy and all over the place.
Not a fan.
lol@@nathanevans6277
Well, I tried 1m of 14 AWG cable on Proac EBTs & while it was had amazing clarity, it just left my nerves frayed after several hours listening. Now I have about 3.5 m of 12 AWG of a different brand. I can't put my finger on why and what sounds different, but now the music just fills my soul.
The only change was the speaker cable. I have not theories as to why or what specific sound qualities changed.
If they reach the amp and the speaker then it is the right length
Jim Jay @12ft you start to get some losses in dB and capacitance buildup with any AWG lower than 9. speaker cables effects corner frequency. also, if the AWG is greater than 7 the highs roll off.
Hue Hue Hue! JJ make jooooooke!
Just like your legs... should be just long enough to reach the ground, any longer will make you walk funny
Yeah I am honestly amazed by the stupidity of these audiophiles.
Cable length only matters if the length is too long. Especially with thin cables. Since the resistance increases your signal gets weaker. So running crazy short cables is not gonna make an issue.
Tell me how short cables is gonna make it sound worse. If so, every studio monitor must sound horrible since their drivers are almost direcly connected to their amps.
As for really long cables combines with shorter ones for different speakers, this is where room correction comes in from your AVR or stand alone DSP.
It begs the question: how long should the cable be INSIDE the speaker?
If the cables are a significant factor in a given amplifier design, they should provide them with the amplifier.
If the cables are a significant factor in the amplifier design they should redesign the amplifier.
The magic word is "matched" components.
William Lau snake oil magic
Totally agree
You need a turntable to make the phono input work do you suggest they supply that too :)
Hi Paul
Here is the reason
Naim power amplifiers do not have extra inductance networks in the output. Naim prefer the more elegant solution of allowing the speaker cable to provide the correct inductance and capacitance. To do so, a minimum of 3.5 metres per channel of NACA4 or NACA5 cable is required - although the optimum length is around 5-10 metres with a maximum recommended length of 20 metres
Keep safe
Once again without research waffle is the order of the day
@@Borednlonely this is the naim support response , I believe that they know more than of us about their products
The above reply is correct. Surprised Paul was not aware of this design intention by Naim.
@@stephengreene9380 why should he? such a design is a flaw...and the rest NAIM marketing ....to sell their special speaker cables, since they should then have the "RIGHT" inductance to match their amps or? Dynaudio also tried this.....who ever bites the bait....
I put my NAIM system in complete vacuum to insure best sound possible.
Sounds about right 😂
@MP you should be using compressed air. When your nozzle sucks a capacitor you will realize your error.
There is no sound in a vacuum.
‘Ensure’
Try washing your amp - really cleans up the sound
I find dipping audiophiles in liquid nitrogen overnight improves the dynamic range by reducing the useless noise they contribute immensely.
if the cable gets longer, wire gauge being kept constant, the voltage will drop, it will have an effect, that is a fact
how big of an effect it will have is complicated...
@@kirbyman1kanden7pftrue but not hard to calculate using wivvir
Iäm an audiophile, and contrary to your finding, found that being dipped in liquid nitrogen did not help. I think its a myth.
Someone missed the joke
@@billd9667Whooosh! The sound of the joke flying over the head.
From Leo: There are numerous things I can measure on my Oscilloscope that no one can hear in a blind listening test. Too many people spending a lot of money for bragging rights, not sound improvement.
It's ridiculous to claim that speaker wire length affects sound quality. The exception being really long lengths. Audiophiles can be so gullible tricking themselves into hearing differences that aren't there.
@@tac6044 you've said it all.
maybe not audiophiles are involved in this kind of trivialThings.... maybe rare and weirdo wannabes .. (00)!
True. I tend to use pure copper where possible. Guitar leads are a problem there whereas speakers often lend themselves better to a technically better setup but let's face it, it all ends up in a solder joint at some stage which tends to be lead/tin on older equipment nier of which are good conductors.
wow - I sparked a conversation starter there - thank you for answering Paul.
Speaker cables change two main factors, first is voltage drop between the amplifier and the speaker. A long thin cable will act as a resistor. Second is the damping factor of the amplifier. Not to be confused with servo, the amplifier still reacts to voltages generated by the voice coil through its negative feedback loop. Add the "resistor" and the damping factor changes. Both will effect the sound. To a lesser extent, any inductance and capacitance introduced by the speaker cables will also throw a wrench in the works. This is why it is not a good idea to coil extra speaker wire, although most inductance is canceled out in two conductor cable by the fact that they are out of phase with each other (heat buildup on high power systems is another good reason.) All this assumes the amplifier directly drives the speaker and does not go through the rats nest, otherwise known as a crossover network. As for 2 feet vs 4 feet of wire, I would like to do some blind A/B tests for those that say they can hear a difference.
Great explanations.
Naim for years considered the speaker cables as part of the output circuit, and cautioned people to not use non-Naim speaker cables because they didn’t provide the proper inductance, resistance, and capacitance. I believe they abandoned that approach years ago though.
Naim is a piece of shit company with a sole purpose of robbing idiots of their money. There's no such thing as "gear based" inductance, resistance and capacitance. Any copper wire will do the trick as long as the minimum is satisfied. After that, no improvement is possible.
since it does not hold up :) and probably got called out for it.
Guitar players have long known that the cords between their guitar and amp have different sound depending the length. This was one of the early complaints with wireless systems for guitar (besides latency). A long cable (20 feet +) has more resistance but also a measurable capacitance (thus the rolling off of highs) that lends to a "darker" tone. Some guitarists use very long coiled cables for this reason. An electric guitar is only really part of the whole instrument. The whole instrument is the guitar, the cable, the amp, and the speaker. They all work together to create a tone that the player conducts. The same goes for any high quality audio system (OK, a guitar and amp is a non-hifi system but it can be a very good non-hifi system). Everything contributes to the tone of the whole system.
Guitar = 50,000 ohm source and 1 Megohm load. HiFi amp = 0.05 ohm source and 8 ohm load. BIG difference. The speaker cable will NOT cause HF loss, and it will NOT affect the sound unless it is too small in gauge, which raises its resistance, loses power, and reduces damping. And there is no such thing as "8 ohm" speaker cable.
only problem is that guitars have very little output.... amplifiers do not.
Spot on ....
Cable length can definitely effect the sound, but unless cables are of an extreme length, it's relatively imperceptible. One thing for certain though, both sides should always be of equal length, that's imperative.
As many have suggested it is to do with maintaining amplifier stability. The standard method with the circuit Naim use is to put an inductor in series with the output. However it was discovered that 3.5m of 4mm² wire as a lightly twisted pair eliminated the need for the inductor. As 3.5m is fairly average length it was decided the inductor could be done away with as the combination of inductor AND cable did affect the sound adversely. So Paul is right about the voicing, as with so many things in high end audio decisions are made that balance engineering and sound considerations.
electron travels at speed of light which is 300,000,000 m/s. I don't think 1m vs 10m cables would make any difference to human ears in terms of time it takes to get from one end to another.
You’d be surprised, advertising want you to purchase a 100ft roll by saying the speaker cables should be the same length for each side. 😂
Unlike most amplifiers, there is no Zobel network (resistor/inductor/capacitor combo)
at the output of Naim amps.
Their own cable are specced to do that job. That is why.
Consider the Naim cable an extended part of the amplifier.
That is the correct answer !!!
Why would they not include a Zobel network to define the asymptote for the high frequency impedance and make stability easy to design? An oscilating output stage would be bad for the amp and speakers.
Congrats “I don’t have a good answer.”
the wire gauge is more important then the length. longer wire bigger gauge. when working with 2 and 4 ohm loads. high power use 12/10 AWG, no extra wire coiled up. keep wire straight and just long enough to hook it up and right size for audio power. no 22ga on a 250 watt amp.
So the smaller the cable is, more resistance peak?
@@robertking1032 double the diameter, halve the resistance
I doubt coiling speaker cable causes any problems, but feel free to explain why it might.
@@rd264 normally coiling speaker wire won't cause problems . there is some exceptions . too many turns makes a coil of choke. that is inductance . this can affect impedance of wire and blocking or attenuating certain audio frequencies'. Also electricity travels at the speed of light. coiling wire makes a delay . if same length to all speakers this is not noticed. but too much delay in 1 side can cause phase distortion. This will take miles of wire for this to happen. Also coiling wire with current passing thru makes a magnetic field . normally not a problem at speaker level power. But with a compass It can affect it.
Naim has been selling a house brand relatively inexpensive cable for ages. One type to fit all products. In that sense I think they wanted to match the impedance of said cable to their optimum specs for best results.
Naim has engineered their power amplifiers in such a way that they rely on the length of the cable with specific specifications.These are: Capacitance: 16pF per metre, Resistance: 9 milliohms per metre, Inductance: 1uH per metre. The inductance is the important parameter here. If the cable specifications and length don't match up, you can overheat a Naim power amplifier. But this has been taken out of context (as usual happens in the audio world) and has become a 'thing' on its own. For anything that isn't a power amplifier, it does not matter that much.
@@jmtennapel That is ridiculous. A few milliohms, picofarads or microhenrys aren't going to do much at all to an amp, let alone over heat it. Only in very long cables will these numbers be significant enough to cause any problems. The speaker wire just becomes an extension to the crossovers in the speakers and they use MUCH higher values. If a speaker crossover uses a 6-8 ohm resistor, adding 0.009 ohms/meter isn't going to do jack shit to change the sound. Same with adding tiny capacitance or inductance, because much higher values are used in crossovers.
All audiophiles should learn the basics of electronics and then no one could sell them snake oil products. If there are any small changes from different cables, they will be noticed on interconnects where the signal will be amplified many times.
@@gordthor5351 Could be, but I just copied and pasted their information. Maybe you have to call Naim and tell them they are ridiculous :)
@@jmtennapel remember the corporations want to sell you things. That's how they make money. In the 70s Ricardo Montalbon was a spokesperson selling a cars. He said , in the commercial, the car comes with real "corinthian leather ". There is no such thing as Corinthian leather. They just want you to buy the car. I see this type of thing on packaging all the time. Even manuals have some nonsense in it. It's designed to protect the corporation and not the user.
@@SocialistDistancing I don't get this kind of rhetoric, it has nothing to do with the question asked, nor the answer given.
Interesting as usual Paul i have a Naim setup with 10 metre cable(,part of the deal) and the length drives me crazy! love the CD though build quality is top notch and just love the solid CD drawer with the disc put in like a record deck
Probably they're counting on the inductance of the cable as part of the protection for their tweeters against destructive ultrasonic spikes. To be even more perfectionistic, they probably also have compensated the inductance-capacitance of the cable and treated them as transmission lines hence the minimum length.
I dont know if it applies to this, but in circuit boards the traces (wires) are meticulously measured and routed so that the signals will arrive at the correct time. If a signal needs to be sent to 2 places on a board at the same exact time, one close and one far away, you kinda need to make the close one have a trace as long as the other one, which is why they tend to route them in zigzags and whatnot.
CHORD SPEAKER COMPANY done quite a bit of testing on speaker cable lengths and what they found was a difference in length of not more than 40% worked pretty well. So a 5m/3m pair, 7m/4m pair and a 10m/6m pair were good. There are a couple of important points here though. Whilst the vast majority of amplifiers will be completely happy with a different length pair of speaker cables, some amplifiers use the speaker cable as part of the circuitry and in this case, cable lengths should be kept the same. Before using different lengths of speaker cable, it is important to check with the manufacturer of the amplifier.
Thanks Paul, was always wondering if those 50' runs on my pro reinforcement rig ..werent costing me a wee bit of signal along the way ...they were
Years ago, in an `open,' medium sized book & record store, one large room, sort of divided up into separate areas for the various types of products, but no interior walls, the owner had 4 good, good sized speakers. We decided to place one of these up in each corner of the room. As I had some familiarity with electronics & audio, he asked me to help him. I decided to use the same length of cable, from the one amp to each speaker, even though the closest speaker was pretty close, about 15 to 20' of cable needed, & the furthest speaker was much longer, between 50 to 70' of cable needed. So, 4 X 70' of cable, good sized lamp cord, purchased = yes, 280 feet. I was worried about, `phasing,' would a much shorter length of cable make a difference? The end result: it sounded pretty good! All of the speakers were high up, on top of display cabinets, book shelves, above anyone's head, so the sound wasn't blocked by anything. In about the middle of the room, it sounded good! Actually, in terms of phase, standing on one side of the room, in one corner, if you calculate the speed of sound, the difference, delay in the sound from a farther away speaker, should be more important than different cable lengths. This was just an idea, & it worked well! He didn't question my idea, didn't say that, `Couldn't we save some $ by buying less cable?' {`True audiophiles' don't worry about cost, do we? Isn't only the sound what's important? Worrying about cost is so, `tacky!' Simply buy everything from Paul - you'll be alright! Go ahead - let's take out your checkbook, right now! Here's a pen!}
spot on there
At last someone from the UK , made some very good speakers back in the day .
For many years I lusted after the Celestion Ditton 25s and still do to some extent. My VAF DC-Xs fill the gap superbly, but the Celestions were the first speakers that "blew my mind" as we used to say; back in the day...
Us Yankees have always been jealous of all y'all Brit's expertise with audio systems. I got no problem with the best, wherever it comes from.
Ditton 15 XRs I ad 2 , the first set I made a floor standing box , Twice the depth on the back with a black marble finish , yep thats nuts , but not ruin .
I kept one set , still here today , NOT FOR SALE .
Celestion changed there magic wand with the DL range and did not disappoint , DL6 hooked up now .
Emmm to much to tex on this one about 2 way WARFDALE but the Audax tweeter dose the base driver justice , pulls everything together .
Its hard to fined these Vintage speakers , the ones I have I keep .
"Us Yankees have always been jealous of all y'all Brit's expertise with audio systems."
Why? All I could afford in the mid 70s was a pair of AR bookshelf speakers and they were very good indeed. I used them quite close to my head and called them my "nearphones". My current DAC is manufactured by Schiit and is also an excellent product. Well-constructed and inexpensive.
Hay You started it off anyway so you are in all the way to this day , others have left it all out and not bothered anymore .
I started with a little pocket radio , I got another bigger speaker & wired it in the radio to bypass that tity thing built in , made a box to hold the speaker up , well I was only a kid in the 70s , that was my first move .
I got a bit of stick from my MUM & DAD for doing stuff but thats was normal lol
Naim olive amps and earlier chrome bumper amps needed long lengths.
According to Naim, "early Naim gear doesn't use an inductor at the output stage to prevent oscillations and relies on the speaker cable's inductance to keep the amp stable under load. The olive and chrome bumper era amps req. a minimum of 13 ft pairs of Naim's own NAC A5 cable." see also Naim FAQ. Cable inductance is not needed for the new style XS etc because such has “a different output section and Zobel circuits”, according to Naim tech support, 2024.
My guess? Maybe to prevent oscillation given the added inductance with increased cable length. Amp output stage may be Unstable other wise. Lots of EMI RFI out there going every which way. Homework: Can you see multiturn air core inductors in your amp at the output transistors? Hmmm. Have fun! -Sandy
Because naim amp didnt have output inductor in the circuit, so naim introduce their Nac A5 with higher inductance per metre, the cable is said to be part of the circuit, by using other cable it might cause the amp to oscilate, its not snake oil, its something that fits their amp design, their cable is not recommended to be used with non naim amp.
As a naim user, i can assure you that with their speaker cable the rythm do improve significantly
Plus their cable is not expensive like the other after market
Exposure which emphasize on PRAT in their design also use their version of similar cable, you can see the cable is hard and not flexible, probably due to the high inductance value
@iamspyvspy the later model didnt make it compulsory as the earlier model but, if use Naca5 it still improve the rythm and PRaT IMHO
How long a cable should I use for connecting my Naim Uniti to my wireless speakers?
If you increase the length you increase the resistance. However, getting a minimum gauge will allow for losses over distance.
A lot has to do with the gauge of the cable, the longer the cable more signal loss you suffer, so bigger the gauge is more important. I also agree never heard of a minimum cable length, but both cables right and left (Pair) must be the same exact length, this as well if you use surround and so on, R-L always same length.
Except OCOS ........
@@frankgeeraerts6243 this is a rule with not exceptions in my opinion and expertise.
It is because Naim Amps didn't have coils on the outputs to keep the amp stable, therefore a minimum of 10 feet has enough inductance to keep the amp stable. Best regards, mark from Dorset, England.
Older Naim gear required minimum naca5 cable length because it needed minimum inductance in the cable which is achieved using 3.5 m length. Newer gear has no such strict requirements, Supernait included.
The rule still applies even on newer Naim amps when it comes to using their own speaker cable. But is no longer required, when you're using a different manufacturers speak cable.
@@alvin19391 well, before I got 3,5 m naca5 myself, I used Chord 2 m cable set without issues. What is more important, that is avoiding hi capacitance cables or any sort biwiring (capacitance in parallell) what will make bigger impact on SQ.
Cable capacitance is a non-issue given the very low impedance and sub-20kHz frequencies involved. I find it astonishing that serious audiophiles willing spend so much for their gear have apparently never looked into the relevant LCR math governing cable losses.
@@editorjunoi suggest you to try to listen before you find out something or anything... I had proac cable 2m long before 4m naca5 and the difference is the like I bought a class higher stereo. Then it came the surface for the componenets and finally I plug them directly into wall sockets each and what a huge improvement that was. Every step made significant improvement. Then I mount at speaker's stand supplied spikes and footers replacing the rubber feet for hardfloor and the result was similar to the recent PS audio clip with Focal Kanta and some special footers. After that I follow guidelines for positioning in Focal guide and lots of Paul's and other inputs like front firing instead toe in and several bookshelfs for difraction and carpet in front of the listening area. Unfortunately I can not remove my tv but at least I put it on the wall I will try to get some sound-absorbent cover. That are the steps I made and each and every step did improvement- but naca5 and direct plug into the wall socket made HUGE improvements and stabilise the sound. I asked for ps audio wall socket but it is still not available for Europe but importer say that it will come soon, so I will wait...
Confirmation bias rooted in investment justification is a powerful psychological phenomenon upon which the "high-end" audio industry depends.
It's really simple. Any amplifier that specifies a minimum speaker cable length is unstable. Stay away from it! We have been able to make audio amplifiers that are unconditionally stable for at least the past 35 years. No excuse for such a restriction these days.
That's what I was thinking. There is some wonky engineering going on when a request like that is made by the manufacturer.
So why not just add output resistor.....
So you are suggesting Naim make poor audio equippment mmm. I dont have Naim equippment but i used to and its far from unstable
Andy Delle The amp is only unstable if you don't add the required inductance to the output stage. Once the inductance is met they become very stable into even difficult loads.
Could it be that shorter speaker cables just "sound" different because of reduced I square R loss?
Thanks Paul for a relaxing yet honest video. I'm currently putting together a small stereo system and returning to include vinyl since 1985 when I went into cds only. I've only owned one of your products, the GCPH Headphone amp I would love to be able to afford more of your products starting with your power conditioners. I have also owned my absolutely best speakers ever Genesis 300s I also had Infinity Delta Gammas another of Arnies creations. I will be doing my first ever bookshelf speaker system. I'm going to be using the MIT MH770 speaker cables I used with the two Arnie speakers. Any suggestions would be much appreciated sir.
I remember that i once had a job as an Active loudspeaker cable company. It didn't last long as i could not sell any speaker cable. ;-]
I took waveguide and transmission theory back in school... that certainly doesn't make me an expert though lol. With the "low" frequencies we're talking about I find it difficult to believe that with any reasonable quality wire that any distance under 50-100ft has any practical or noticeable effect. A super short wire might have some effect depending on the impedances (due to reflections being more pronounced). What will probably have the most effect are: gauge, insulator type, insulator thickness, distance to other adjacent wires, conductor material, speaker impedance, amplifier output impedance, and whether there's an output capacitor on the amplifier to help eliminate DC and sub-audible noise.
Whoa, whoa. Who do you think you are using science to explain reality to "audiophiles" with more money than anything else? 😉
@@scottcampbell76 lol yeah I'm not really sure why I felt compelled to make a comment in the first place. Like I'm going to convince anyone of anything lol!
if I recall correctly And please correct me if I'm wrong but the answer to the gentleman's question outside of a sound quality perspective really comes from more of a historic perspective. naim back in the day and as I understand it we're talking '80s and the '90s specified a particular speaker length because the output stages on their amplifiers worked best at a particular ohm level or maybe inductance or something, be honest with you I really can't remember when I read a long time ago. suffice it to say the output stage worked best because that particular length of speaker cable created that particular inductance or what have you and so that's what was specified. now the amplifier would still work with other lengths of cable obviously but it would not sound how the company intended the amp to sound. And I think anymore their products and amplifiers aren't designed around the same principle per se however I kind of get the feeling they do it now more as a throwback kind of historical feature of their products.
I have worked in the audio industry for many years and this question never goes away. If the cable reaches the speakers its the right length just make sure the cables are the same length and dont use low grade 'bell' wire or other cheap small diameter cable you should be fine. I have seen ridiculously overpriced cables which claim all sorts of questionable 'improvements'. It just is all smoke and mirrors really. Also MP3 files for audio playback dont get me started lol!!
No it's true, you can play MP3 files for audio.
MP3 for ME...
Wires make a huge difference in the sound, but the amount of difference they make is directly related to the quality of your system, mainly your speakers and amps. Just raise the quality of your wires to the quality of your system, it's not that hard to figure out. Formula 1 racing cars can take advantage of very expensive tires but that same tire quality would be a waste on a mini van, that doesn't mean that the racing tires are
"snake oil" just because they don't improve the handling of the mini van very much or at all. Get It?
Now you can go to Wire World and buy the wires that go with your system and budget, I like the mid priced stuff, just don't use lamp cord or the wires that came with your equipment for free. The latest wire designs can make a huge improvement in your system if you have a "Formula 1" type system. 20,000 bucks and up. Once you get into the area of 50,000 for amps and speakers, upgrading the wires to a thousand bucks for speaker wires and another thousand for the interconnects will completely change your world over spending just 200 bucks for both sets of wires. I've seen the look on faces when the switch is made and each time, it gives me a great feeling to see them freak out at how much better their system sounds. I don't sell them, I just hook them up, incase you were wondering. It's not just the materials like better copper and added silver, it's the design of Wire Worlds cables, it's one guy engineering one product for a long time, he's good. I'm sure lot's of companies can make great stuff, I only use his now if possible.
Hi Bill, I read your post here and just recently got to know about wire world cables. I appreciate you are serious as I see most people's posts being very silly. Can you reccomend if one should be okay with their entry level cables? I am just recently started to try cables as my new improved system clearly expose weaknesses in the chain. But I don't know where to start with the cables.
The analogy with tires is risible.
I have a Naim Nait 1 that does not have an inductor on the output and it becomes unstable without enough cable inductance or too much capacitance.
I'd almost wonder if, in addition to length, they have other specs too. Gauge, capacitance/ft.
Two things that I'd suggest.
1) capacitance of the cable - will possibly have an effect as Paul suggests of high frequency roll-off.
2) Resistance - this is so minimal I don't know how much effect it might have. But, if you consider the speaker and cable as one complete system, the resistance of the cables will have an effect on the Qes of the woofers. Additional resistance will increase the Qes, thusly Qts, thusly the optimum box size for that woofer.
Perhaps they are accounting for some FR profile, but (I can't recall the formula/relationship for how wire resistance affects Q) I have to imagine such a small amount of additional R of a specific cable length would be almost nothing.
Yep. Blanket advice on speaker cable length to set FR and damping profiles is incredibly naive. _In theory,_ you could use a speaker cable's length to ... sigh ... fine tune? .. some of this. But you would have to measure the actual properties of THAT amp, THAT speaker, in THAT location of THAT room, and model it to see whether the difference is even significant enough to see on a graph -- much less hear it.
Naim recommend NAC A4 or A5 of at least 3.5m in length (both channels should have the same length). If you want to save money though, you can use Linn K20 cable (it's the same and was even made to the same spec by the same manufacturer and rebranded...until Naim found out and terminated their contract).
Naim's designs made the speaker and cables an integral part of the out put circuit.
I had the impression the capacitance and resistance of the cable is treated like a component of the amplifier, and the amplifier is voiced accordingly taking this into account.
The larger the cables the less the resistance, and the cooler your amp will run, but this is slight, however I use 12 gage to be on the safe side. They don't affect the sound, a double bind test between a high end (expensive) cable and a coat hanger resulted in thecoat hanger winning, high end speaker cables are whats called snake oil. Good for paying for college for the children of the sellers, but just a pretty decoration for the buyer, better bang for your buck is just about anyting
I could certainly see the inductance of the cable taming the high end and a very detailed designer using that as a component of voicing, but if they do that they must also specify more qualities of the cable such as it's geometry in order for that to have any validity.
My opinion in amplifier design is that the cable should be specified such that it essentially disappears from the analysis of the circuit.
they do specify - buy naim!
yes - a lot of snake oil in cables. my post is what I think naim believes, and I might be wrong(?) - like Paul says - they're pretty whacky...
Billy Grinstead and also frequency has impact, with DC utilising the whole core of the cable, and the higher frequencies goes more and more towards the outer edge of the cable. I do however doubt it has much impact on low frequency signals like audio is. When we are talking outer shell of a wire, we’re talking gigahertz of frequency.
1 meter or six meters makes absolutely no difference to the sound quality, 2.5mm 4mm and 6mm pure copper stranded cable with a decent outer jacket is all you need when it comes to speaker cable, the rest is pure bling.
Different cable lengths produce a quantifiable but very slight variation at different frequencies. (Probably due to wire capacitance). The reason why some manufacturers specify a certain length is only because that's the length they test their speakers at. In order for the speaker to reproduce sound as-advertised, it needs to be connected as-tested.
The HUGE caveat, they don't specify which amplifier you should use. The amp and the room makes such a big difference to the sound, cable length is a very distant and ultimately negligible factor unless you're in a studio.
Wrong. Lesser lengths of the NACA5 don't sum to enough inductance for older Naim amplifiers. Research the products before you recommend burning up someone else's amp.
@@vikassm "slight variation at different frequencies" maybe show us your measurements to support?,,,,lol
I'm glad I found this vid. I know to avoid a naim amp if they tell me I need 20ft speaker cables
they recomend a minimun of 3.5M at 1uH per Meter.
Naim amps don’t have Zobel networks in the output stage. They use specific cables to compensate for this and maintain amplifier stability and cable length is needed, I think, to ensure sufficient resistance again to balance amp/speaker load. Or at least that’s what the aliens told me.
It's possible that the crossover was designed with a small resistance in mind between the amplifier and the speaker. The minimum length may take into account an expected gauge of wire, to present this resistance. However, some setups will have longer cable lengths, than others, and it would be expected that you'd use thicker cables for the longer runs.
I have B&W speakers and love them, and use quite long (potentially room spanning) cables. I don't find issues with the bright tweeters; could the longer cables be why??
No.
I think somebody has amps and speakers confused with guitars, where the difference actually _can_ matter. But it only matters because you've got a very low signal level source driving a high impedance input at close to 0 current, so the cable's reactive influence on the frequency response is actually relatively significant. Even then, it's subtle.
A speaker cable will have resistance, but it's a fraction of a sliver of that of the speaker itself (unless you're using line-level RCA cables on the speaker-level RCA outputs of your low-cost HiFi stack.) Reactance _is_ a thing, but if the difference in TWO METERS of cable is the threshold between a stable amp and one that is oscillating, your amp is defective.
I also have Naim. When I was going to buy only 2 meter, he said "NO", it must be 3m something.
The right answer is b) I don't have no idea.
Those double negatives mean a positive
Longer cables introduce resistance which will change the impedance. High frequencies need wider cable widths over long distances. velocity factor of the cable
dear paul,
I have been doing sound for decades. Also, my mom has a nice McIntosh set up with klipsh heresy II speakers from around the late 70s that I look after. I take car of my cables. I have some that are over 30 years old and still work, but not sure if I should trust them. many are OFC, some are not. can you explain a simple way, maybe using a scope and an audio generator, how to check if they are passing 20-20khz well? I want to separate out the cables that may be coloring the sound too much. some of the cable types are:
RCA
XLR
1/4" instrument
Speaker (various jacks)
I've had a few old guitar and RCA cables get really dead sounding. I noticed when I stripped back the insulation that the copper was badly tarnished.
thanks for the great info!
Casey
Raritan, NJ
been catching up on all your videos, shouldnt all the speaker cables be the same length as the longest run?
thank you for all your great info!
Powered speakers have very short speaker cables running from the internal amps and the speaker drivers.
dcfincher the amplifiers have an inductor to keep the amp stable in those. a naim amp forgoes this in exchange for speaker wire.
x21 But I find it kind of stupid to rely on the cable to keep the amp stable. Most amplifier designs don't rely on a certain inductance of the cables to remain stable. The best cable is no cable obviously doesn't work for naim cables. But it also means that Naim will sound a bit less puchy in the bass and the top will be slightly less pronounced. Simply because of having longer cables with more inductance.
Good question..
How does one deliver the best amp damping to a subwoofer? I was told to use the shortest cable run possible, and 10 gage high strand count rope lay design. Parts Express sells it cheap.
Looking at the schematic for the NAP200 amplifier you'll see that there is no inductor that makes up a part of the usual Zobel network that is found in nearly all solid state amplifiers. Could it be that Naim rely on the length of the loudspeaker cables to provide the inductance of a Zobel network, and that cable needs to be at least nn feet?
"early Naim gear doesn't use an inductor at the output stage to prevent oscillations and relies on the speaker cable's inductance to keep the amp stable under load. The olive and chrome bumper era amps req. a minimum of 13 ft pairs of Naim's own NAC A5 cable." see also Naim FAQ. Cable inductance is not needed for the new style XS etc because such has “a different output section and Zobel circuits”. Naim tech support, 2024.
I'll take a guess. When you send a signal to the speaker it tries to send one back to the amp as the voice coil moves. The longer the cable the more time it takes for the counter signal to return to the amp. It should be desirable that you want the sent signal to have moved on so it's not simultaneously opposed by the counter emf. OK, I pulled this out of my butt but it seems slightly logical.
The effect you're describing exists at RF but is essentially nonexistent in AF.
This was an interesting thought.
@@hubbsllc interesting reply.
I indicated I a previous comment on Kenwood products that I own the complete L-07 line that they were sold originally including speaker cables. In fact these are 3 feet long
The interconnect are some 20 feet long. I also have a Linn Naim system from the late 70's and can' recall a minimum lenght. I do recall however of a minimum 4.6 ft for s digital cable. Regard d
I thought this was only with old Naim gear but I just check out some manuals and they all say minimm 3.5 meter so around 10 feet. That is crazy when you really don't need that long and more expensive too. I actually thought the shorter the better for speaker cable. For mains power boxes there is actually a minumum of 1.5 meters / 5 feet and a technician did confirm it but could not explain.
Paul if you don't like B&W tweeters maybe you should test the tweeters against the ones you do like and show us why they are so bad. I have B&W speakers some with Diamond Tweeters some without. But I hear nothing wrong with my tweeters on any of these speakers. But I would love to see you compare them for us. I'm always looking to be educated on these topics.
What happens if you wrap excess cable together. Will this course problems? Can you show the differences with your testequipment?
I think an answer to this cable length question just occurred to me. If the cable is 3.3 meters long, it will allow the speaker to be moved around without damaging connectors. Seems like that is a good reason.
I would have thought it be down to the inductance and capacitance of the cable the greater the length of the cable the greater inductance and capacitance. So when they were making their circuitry they designed it for this type of capacitance and inductance minimum. There is a difference on the output stage as well with MOSFET the way they have them configured can't remember exactly how it's done now. That's not true Paul the length of cable doesn't necessarily if it's good cable affect the frequencies it shouldn't do
And by doing so, they ensure that they sell their own cables.
@@oysteinsoreide4323 not necessarily so chord cables work fine with their products it's to do with more capacitance and inductance then resistance on the cable they are not twisted I think they are straight wires
The reason for the minimum length cable is impedance to reduce oscillation.
Perhaps this is true for inherently unstable amplifiers, but not for the vast majority of competently designed gear.
Audiophile purists are so against in-built tone controls on hi-fi equipment, But then use cables (often expensive) as a form of tone control...
Yes, so ironic, totally agree!
I saw a system in a nightclub designed with the amplifiers on top of the cabinets to reduce the amount of speaker cable and what they did was run a long set of rcas to the amp engineer said degradation through composite RCA cables is less than the loss through speaker cables.
Ask Richard Dane at hifi corner - naim forum site. I have naim/focal and I can witness that is great difference in cable lenght. They suggest optimum between 5 to 10m long and that is certainly justified in sound. As a electronic lay person I can offer this kind of explanation - they cast away a component at the out so you have crossing in channel, left channel is on the right side and vice versa. Supernait would benefit from electra series of Focal and Naim source such as cd x2 or ndx2.
According to our Naim dealer in Sudbury, Naim recommends people to put the electronics in a separate room, so Naim amps are tuned counting on the extra cable capacitance and inductance to mellow out the sound - exactly as Paul suspected.
H Cheu I’ve never heard that one before. It has to do with providing enough cable inductance to keep the amplifier stable, it’s a well known Naim quirk.
@@Si1983h The dealer is a good friend and he loves Naim. I was looking for a pair of cables for my new Brodmann VC7 and I asked about Naim cables. I asked about the length and he told me that the minimum length rule would not apply to me because my amp is a McIntosh. TheN he explained to me why Naim designed its amps for long cables.
H Cheu it’s the first time I’ve heard that said. Some Naim amps need long cables for stability, not to tailor the presentation.
@@Si1983h I think "stable" is just another way, perhaps less accurate, to say the same thing. Less accurate because I used Naim to drive electrostatics at 0.8 ohm. There was no instablility.
H Cheu no, they can go into oscillation if they don’t have sufficient inductance on the outputs.
All high end audio manufacturers have their preferred way of doing things, I`m sure some of Naims customers/followers think PS audios equipment such as the power regenerators are ridiculous. To quote Marantz`s Ken Ishiwata - "Trust your own ears"
Well said that man, so true. Also if you are over 50, your ears are not performing at the top end anywhere near as good. All the cable upgrades, power regents etc.. and noticing a difference in the presentation, trust your own ears. I listen and would genuinely say there is an improvement if there really was. However, as an example power strips made no difference to me, apart from being told by the person doing the demo, you can hear the difference now, improved bla bla bla🤔
@@a0r0a7 Well. Why people don't understand that eyesights are different and some are even color blind. But not ears, or neurons? Hearing the highest frequency isn't the only aspect of human auditory system.
@@johnyang799 understood. However, to pick out nuisances through change is very debatable, particularly at the high end.
@@a0r0a7 Actually speaker cable is one of the less snake oil thing. The reactive load and the amplifier's interaction is real. First of all output impedance will certainly change the frequency response of the speaker, because the impedance curve is not flat. Speaker cable is essentially extra resistor+inductor+parallel capacitor at output. It not only changes the frequency response it also isolates the amplifier slightly from the load causing less control over the speaker (signal across the speaker itself can vary without the amplifier to correct it.) Hence it will change the sound. It's measurable and audible.
Power conditioner does similar thing, it allows the amplifier to work at best condition. Even though well designed amplifier will give some sort of power supply rejection. But that's depending on the amplifier, and you can only do so much sometimes. The powerplant constantly corrects its output making the power supply going into the amplifier with constant amplitude. Amplifier will perform better under ideal condition.
The results will always be measurable, but how much is not consistent some will benefit from it some would unlikely to.
@@johnyang799 so what you are saying is different speaker cables behave differently with an amplifier so much and therefore will sound different? 🤔 I do understand how a speaker cable will react, thank you. The snake oil is different cables i.e. very expensive speaker cable will sound better. No sorry do not agree. I have tested many and audible difference is just not audible. I have even tested with other people and no one person picked out the expensive cable as the better cable every time. Power conditioners are a good thing. I do feel clean power is a positive. I have designed and built a mains surge, filter conditioner which I use. However, claims they improve bass, imaging and detail are extremely negligible. If you are in the UK would you be willing to prove the differences to me. I can also then swap cables and you should be able to pick out the best cable each time, time and again?
paul is the copper beeing removed from your speaker cabel due to the AC-signal ? and where does that copper that is missing from the cables go? does it travel and add copper to to the transformer, or is it lost due to the chemisty of usually copper and electrons, and it is reactions between electrons and copper that over time degrades the copper in the speaker cable ??
just like the positive+ and negative- cabels that's inside your car, gets degraded over time..
Hi Paul, I've been into vinyl and hi fi now for 50+ years and bought my first "real" system at the age of 15. In all these years of buying numerous amplifiers and speakers not once in any user manual did it mention a minimum length or a specification for speaker cables. It may have said use good quality cables, but that's about it. Even hi fi dealers and distributors do not mention these specification issues when buying equipment or cables. I cannot imagine for one minute a 2 metre length will sound different to a 4 metre length (same cable) especially when the signal is travelling at the speed of light (186,000 miles per second). Isn't it a coincidence that these amps that require "specific" speaker cables, and the speaker cables themselves are manufactured/supplied by the same company.
Naim specified minimum lengths of speaker cable before they even produced their own version. Earlier Naim power amps cerrtainly seemed to need that inductance, and I have known stability problems when customers used very short lengths. I am not convinced it matters so much these days, but Naim still state this requirement for all the latest kit.
Did the speaker designer assume a minimum resistance in the speaker cable as part of the RLC values used in the crossover design?
All cables, of any length and gauge, will have LCR impacts (inductance, capacitance and resistance) on the load it is carrying... it is the fundamental laws of electronics in general and electricity in particular. Will the average person hear or able to determine those impacts? Probably not, as long as the lengths are of reasonable deployments (anything under say 50 feet). Stick with manufacturer's recommendations when possible, but also take any extremes with a grain of salt. ;)
if you have a shorter cable, could you not manually add an inductor in series and capacitor in parallel to get to the same result?
“HEY MY AUDIO EQUIPMENT IS NAIM BRAND!” Lol
Longer cable will very slightly affact dampening factor I think, making it worse with longer restive cables. If the amp is unstable increasing the resistance might help slightly. With thick cables I dont think you will hear a difference.
affect - to change
effect - a result
affect - ?
YOU EXCEEDED YOUR "SO" QUOTA OF THE DAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My favourite cable brand is QED. Genesis Spiral Silver would be my pick in systems under 50k.
I personaly tried 4mm (kable direkt) found it had very powerful detail, but cold sound and the bass punch wasnt there, pure copper, then tried 2.5mm had more mids but also cold and not musical , bass was better, but not as detailed and not musical also, that was QED 79 strand, went back to a pair of really old wire that I had i think is probably 1.5 mm wire copper and my systems sounds muscial again, voices seems nice, and bass is good too, not always is a better conductor better sound, the wire made such a difference I was thinking of selling my system before. I think with the minimum length, Niam know that the balance of sound will be how they intended it to be , if you ignore the logic of having more power from less resistance from a shorter length, and use the power control from you amp you might find that the ratio of balance of frequencies is effected by the wire, and some sound too harsh, the 4mm wire i tried i could hear distortion in the recording , and sounds that probably didnt need to be heard, only on a good recording it sounded good, but compared to my 1.5 mm wire it was nothing, also too much treble can sound harsh with too much detail, test wires for yourself to see, my system is, Sony FA50es, soundblaster 24bit usb external sound card, and bose 201 series 3 speakers, or sony ss85E, i also noticed where i positioned the speakers made a large difference, but non more than the wire, which i think now is more important in a setup than even the amp as in the long run i couldn't get it to sound good without the 1.5mm copper cable. The ratio and balance of sound and how harsh it is will be affected by the length and thickness of the wire. The soundblaster is better than the asus 24 bit model equivalent.
Could it be that long cables “sound different” because the speakers are wide apart enough to produce a more intense stereo effect?
Lololol
“Im not making fun of wackiness. Just cables.”
I have an NAD 3130 stereo amplifier and am having issues with either my speaker wire, or something else. Recently, no matter how I adjust the wire in the terminals, they go in and out. Any advice before throwing away money?
banana plugs
This kind of of breaks my brain, but was wonderfully explained. IMO if brand are not saying what the exact cable lengths and specific cabling, that should use to achieve peak performance, there is some voodoo'ing going on.
Not sure if it’s related but I know Ethernet cables and many RF signal cables have minimum lengths because if you go under that threshold there is internal reflections that can produce noise and reduce reliability, or even in some circumstances damage equipment. That said, minimum length for the average Ethernet cable is like 3m/10’ but plenty of people use much shorter lengths and there’s no noticeable difference 99% of the time
How did you come up with that design on the feets?
When running in new speakers, using longer braided thick cores 3m cables can mellow the heights. Otherwise so painful in a year for the ears, so non musical sounds. When burned in, changed the cables for shorter custom lengths.
I have always ran the same length cables for speakers no matter how far each was from the amp.
I was going to say the same thing. Just the same length. I also try not to make any tight coils if there is extra.
I try to put some more mystery to that. Just guessing. In my opinion speaker electrical response is not exactly coherent with input signal (badly) . Due to phase shift(s) of current. That is send back as feedback. Could it be possible that some shifts in above listening range of frequencies can in that product affect stability? That would be important to gear transmitting them. Adding some minimum reactance may work effectively in high range and may be flattens the problem? I don't know if its possible because I never had like this - my amps know 20 kHz rule :).
This makes me wonder what Naim Audio think about active speakers; they usually have a short length of decent gauge _equipment_ wire between the amp output and actual drivers which wouldn't even qualify as proper "speaker cable".
I prefer balanced interconnects and no more than 3 or 4 inches of solid core 12 awg between the (mono) amp and the speaker . This usually involves putting the amp on some kind of stand or stool to line up the terminals . My current set up uses klipschorns with Volti crossovers sitting on top of the speaker so there s room to back the amp right up to the speaker terminals .
You do know that your crossover has inductors with thirty feet or more of thin wires in it, right? So why are you worried about a couple of feet of thick wire in addition? ;-)
Do the equipment with integrated speakers have a minimum length of cables inside?
I think we should put the length needed for the placement of speakers and have the same length of cable from amplifier to each channels so the minimum cable length will be that of the farthest speaker.
I had 2.5m cables on a naim NAP150X - there was a audible crackle on sibilant sounds. I switched to 3.5M and the sound disappeared.
It is true, I have used one Kilometer of speaker cables which the sound was much better than using 1 foot cable.
Hi Professor :)
Do you agree that using any kind of wire plugs (i.e. banana) would introduce a restriction to the signal, unless it is a perfect conductor?
My logic is simple: connecting a bare wire to the posts (receiver and speakers) is the best solution. Am I wrong?
Not necessarily "a restriction to the signal," but every point of contact between two conductive materials introduces some risk of potential failure. I use bare wire ends "tinned" with solder for a reliable connection -- this works well with both (firmly tightened!) binding posts and the cheap spring connectors that were so common back in the previous century and are still used on many low-cost speakers today.
Learned something about Naim amplifiers today, but not from Paul.