Hi 👋. Just wanted to give you a massive thanks for all the information and hard work. Without all the amazing work you do we would all fall for the marketing BS on some brands. It’s totally changed what products I use and can already see great results. Top job and what a superstar. All the very best and please keep up the fantastic work. Tony.
DITTO! Finally made the switch just over a month ago and kicking myself for waiting so long. Been riding & cleaning & lubing chains for 51 years. Only now to try wax? WTF was I thinking? It is amazing so far for me. To just ride and ride and ride in dry, totally dusty off-road conditions and not give second thought to dousing my drive train and entire bike in dust. It.doesn't.matter. This stuff is unreal. And I haven't put any road miles on it yet. Been too busy riding off road to enjoy the benefits of road riding that has a million times less grit, grime and abrasive abuse. I'm thinking a scenario like this, "When did I last lube my road chain? What year is it?" Ha, ha! And ZFC has really exposed the serious drawbacks of "abrasive paste chain lube." The stuff simply DOES NOT WORK. It's so bad, you kinda start thinking it must be a conspiracy or something to boost chain, cassette & chain ring sales. Because the way I see it, there's NO REASON anyone trying to "move units" is gonna be happy about immersion waxing! Kudos to Adam & ZFC for what he's done!
Thanks for your hard work. You’ve been an ongoing source of inspiration and have had a large impact on how I approach the world of bicycle repair for myself, my friends, and my customers. I am a better bicycle mechanic and person because of you. Thanks.
This is crazy. Thank you for your service. Just did my first wax tonight! Used fully refined paraffin wax, which is supposed have less than 0.5% oil content. Will see how that goes.
It's well worth watching for anyone interested in the lube used on your drivetrain. To be totally honest, I usually skip through Adam's videos to the bits I think will be of interest; however, I watched the whole thing this time. Great work; keep them coming.
My commute bike gets ridden in rain and left outside in the wet often while I'm at work. I just swap it out when I get home, dry with an air duster, wipe and re-wax with Silca hot melt wax. So far no problems with corrosion and will try it year-round.
What purpose does the CBN paricles in this wax serve? I know in machining CBN tooling is used for cutting extremely hard materials. It seems like this is literally what's known as 'lapping paste' used for abrading surfaces at very fine levels. Is it possible the abrasion is coming from the CBN not the tungsten?
CBN? do you BN? Boron nitride is there ceramic friction modifier - this is soft and no concerns from that. whether it is as competitive as other friction modifiers is a questions, as the additive is FAR les common, and many other top players have tested it, found it inferior vs say moly, Ws2, graphite etc and so it is much more common to see those friction modifier additives vs BN, which is normally reserved for very high temp applications. My thoughts so far are that BN is used by those who want to go to market with a "ceramic" marketing angle for sales vs it being actually the best additive, but i await FL to prove that BN is superior and why they choose BN
Looking at your pick of the HALO wax i thought maybe you were sharing a pic of your fried fish next to the bag ;-D Once I realized it was the wax, my first thought was I'll just continue with Silca Super Secret as there is no way that the HALO wax was ever going to see my chain! I think maybe Finish Line has a lot of work to do!
i have just got this to do waxing for customers - used silca for a while now but at trade this is a better option, on my personal bike my XTR chain went through 1 cycle with zero wear...ZERO! - just want to know, is it maybe better performing in adverse conditions? Maybe water and grit and grime etc are more where it is targetted like normal weather vs the very occasional bright and sunny day outside!
Thanks james - please keep doing and please keep monitoring. Currently investigating on a bunch of fronts, and overall more information is going to be better. I have completed block one test again on new chain, different test machine, and yep, just as bad (slightly worse) than test one. Potential differences are - a) is that xtr 12spd? If yes they are much more wear durable than 11spd ultegra, so it may take a little longer to first compromise its very hardy wear protection coating - part 2) can you do two chains on rotation, one with silca, one with halo, and check wear on both after circa 1000km? and b) one theory by an industry leader is that it is possible with products like this that batching issues to start are difficult. Ie it has been seen with sealant containing particles - that the particles start to clog the nozzles filling the bottles. Bottle one contains correct amount, bottle 2 less, bottle 3 less again, bottle 4 less again, bottle 5 now hardly any, then from pressure the clog is blown out and bottle 6 contains 5x what it should. It is possible something is going on with this. One bag seen overseas had a golfball size white blob, which mine didnt have. And this would be unusual. So ratio's of BN and whatever the heck this tungsten additive are could be all over the place. Yours might have barely any, i might have a very concentrated blend. I am going to be sending my current one off for analysis and getting another bag from commercial sale soon ish. Suffice to say, we dont have the answers yet, and disappointingly nothing yet from FL. But what i do have is a big concern, as whatever i have is like sand wax..... but if offering as a commercial service... if i was me, i would want to be 100% that the product is as claimed first. If a shop genuinely cares about their customer experience, and ended up with customers with very high wear on chain, and get caught out ripping past 0.5% and wearing cassette etc - does the shop offer to make that right? that could be expensive, and if not, then it could easily cost a good customer. i understand better margins etc - i cant say that in aus selling silca is very profitable as margins are really borderline (around 30% gross margin which post taxes, costs of doing busines etc leaves me with about 5% net margin - so.... for every $100 of silca sold, im left with a net $5 in my pocket. Yeehaa. Really we hope for a minimum 40% gross margin but yeah... silca aint that here) - so for sure a higher margin is tempting - but i personally would hold off until its known this is a genuine top product. I would chat to mspeedwax if you are in USA - you can get from the direct so no importer middle man to pay margin too, and mspeedwax is brilliant.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 I get what you are saying. I have no way of testing durability due to it being mountain bike and I still have lots of silca left in my pot - the plan was to keep the pot topped up with the FL and at the price I can get it for it made a lot more sense than having to buy into Silca where they want you to buy everything in the chain maintenance line up and I just don’t sell enough lube or waxings to make it a worthwhile investment - I am doing waxing as an included part of my service so wanted something that would be good enough without the price tag so I can include it without worrying. People also tend to either over or never lubricate a chain! My go to lubricant before was one called Fenwicks Professional which is a U.K. brand and I have found to be flippin brilliant both for wear and also cleanliness (as clean as wax) I just got a little fed up with the faff of getting it all set up and done and waxing just makes it so much easier and longer lasting - I still use it as a top up every month though to keep it running smoother - Silca drip is £40 here vs Fenwicks which is £17 for the same size bottle, I can’t really believe it would be any better aside from maybe during winter months where the Fenwicks only lasts a couple or weeks.
It would be REALLY interesting to look at their testing setup/routine, and to look at all the metrics measured. Finish Line make deecent products, so something is very, very wrong here.
yes - based on wear coming in, i currently dont have any clue how this could not be picked up in their own testing, so i really need to get information. But i think this marks the first time ever that i am actually concerned that what a company claims they have put in product may actually be in the product!!! Normally its lofty claims and lets see how that holds up against reality. This time its your saying you put WHAT in your lubricant.... and then maybe they have..... holy batman....
On the ProTour waxing topic, I believe that you accurately summarized the key issue, that being that the overarching benefits of immersive waxing for the average cyclist (contamination resistance and drivetrain longevity) don't translate well to the concerns and needs of the ProTour. The other major concern for ProTour teams is sponsorships, it is not hard to see examples of teams using what may not be the optimal setup because of sponsor requirements.
Victor Campanaerts instructs the Lotto mechanics to remove his self-waxed chain every day after a race, put it to one side, and reinstall it after they clean his bike(s). He's a waxer through and through. Having been a team mechanic, I can see how many of my erstwhile peers operate: in little grooves, and they only change when forced to by equipment sponsors' or riders' requirements. Jet-washing bikes is surely a stupid indulgence in days of $400 per assembly ceramic bearings.
Olympic track cyclists - riding in pristine conditions - are using immersion wax. Given the attention the bikes get plus the practically "clean room" riding conditions, this is a VERY strong argument for wax. In other words, I'm guessing they've found friction testing results to be so good - especially considering the massive torque loads they put down - that it's a significant benefit. If you want proof, watch the American coverage of women's sprint race from 2-3 days ago. At 21:20 into the broadcast, they zoom in on a few track bike chain rings & chains. Zoom in on the image and you can see the hardened wax around the edges of the outer chain plates. This is what I call "the clincher" as far as wax is concerned. (Nice pun, eh?!!)
Thanks Cat! im a bit worried - its my 299th race, with race 300 should be next weekend at cx state titles, but i am nursing a left calf injury - so lets hope i survive today and the next week of training to get race 300 in the bag, it would be sort of on trend for me to get to 299 and then have to have an injury time out and delay race number 300 and miss the states. Not sure yet how to nurse my calf in all the brutal accelerations and jumping over barriers in a cx race but we shall see.... hunting for my compressing sock shortly..... :)
@@CatManDoSocial Started in 2012. I set myself a frankly silly and likely very unachievable goal of trying to do 1000 bike races. Even trying to do 20 a year, which is hard to do at the moment as main focus is mini me sports and other activities - thats still 50 years hahahaha!! At my current rate i will need to race well into my 90's - possibly longer, which with inevitable injury, illness, life impacting number of races some years - keeping that rate each year will be unlikely - however, i may (MAY) when actually retire and mini me grown up be able to increase - some peeps at racing that are older, retired and all sorted just race oodles locally and around the country doing all the cool events, so if i can stay healthy i might be increase numbers - but still, the goal is very very unlikely - however, i am just going to see how close i can get, its a fun way to try to not get too out of shape as i age :) So yeah, i am planning to DOMINATE master 10 racing in some decades lol!
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Haha. That is absolutely amazing. Good for you. I truly hope you stay healthy and injury free. I raced triathlon for a few years quite a while back and have done a couple MTB races but I finally just accepted that racing isn't for me. I love the training but the racing just isn't fun for me and it just stresses me out. I really wish it didn't but that's life. Certainly glad you enjoy it! Be well my friend.
@@CatManDoSocial yeah i dont do a lot of road racing (actually barely any these days), as although im not stressed about the race, a lot of other people are, and also the officials seem to go to specific training on how to ensure they and everyone else is as tense and stressed as possible. Most of my racing is xc and cx and gravel, and that is lovely and relaxed. And you dont have to faff with wheel suckers, or people not working in the break - it is just your skill, your fitness vs everyone else, and you get to ride lots of really fun courses and events, and whilst i am not very competitive at all these days and my training is thus generally very relaxed and not very focused - i enjoy the different events and the general mix up in training it brings. Ie this weekend is cx state champs, so i will get a good 2.5 to 3hr z2 ride in tomorrow, then intervals and tune taper for that. When i have an xc marathon or a long gravel event, they i change up the training a bit around that - and zoom around to recon the mtb park for the next mtb race etc. And over the years you meet a lot of groovy people at the events that you get to have fun racing and chats with and training with and some fun adventures on some events indeed. It is like a lot of things - if you have 10 races - 2 or 3 of them might be a bit rough or simply meh for one reason or another, 4 or 5 might be just nice groovy fun, and 2 or 3 were a belting ol time and adventure and or grand fun battle with a buddy or two. But yes dont worry you are not alone re stress, i have seen a bunch of peeps over time race for awhile but just struggle for it not to be negative stress on them, whereas for me its all positive fun - it doesnt matter if im 5th or 50th - how fast i am or am not on a bike really doesnt mean anything - i just enjoy the fun and aventure and comeradery of the events and yeah especially the cx / xc / gravel scene - its really relaxed and friendly and a grand ol time out on the trails. So if you ever do think about it again - try gravel and or cx (in adelaide their is a "chonklocross" category now so you dont have to worry about stupid 33mm tire width rules, you just race yr gravel bike, yeehaa. But i do remember in my younger faster days a decade ago, i was pretty nervous for i reckon about my first circa 50 races (which were road... which doesnt help) - i think thats pretty normal, but yeah once you have done your first hundred, you are relaxed from then for the next decades hahahaha
For waxing in protour team i would guess that they just prepare as many chains to last a week. Rewaxing could then be done on rest days in grand tours or simply after any shorter races. Wondering about the Visma proces now they are being sponsored by Silca.
Given the budgets, and the size of the trucks, even for tdf, just pack enough chains for the whole tour. Bike mechanics are often luddites, I wouldn't count on them to melt wax and so on.
yes absolutely, considering the number of chains they have access to - pre prepping a whole lot and breaking them in on machine should be easy for a well set up team - remember the pics we used to see of 200+ tubulars pre glued and then put onto wheelsets - they didnt need to do a lot of gluing, allowing 24hrs, re coat, allow 24hrs, install on wheel etc after a stage, as that is rather difficult - it was all pre done. Waxing chains is a lot easier and quicker than tubular tires were...
in terms of a Team setup, wax makes even more sense really, because then you're talking about one giant wax pot, do them all at once, maybe with hangers that have different colored handles on them so you can keep track of which bike the chain goes to.
BTW, my woodworking machinery has Tungsten Carbide blade teeth/cutters. Certainly goes through even knotty, resinous Aussie hardwood quite easily. Maybe they got the application use case wrong.
Are you sure they are Tungsten Disulphide microspheres and not Tungsten Carbide Microspheres? The former does appear to be a thing the latter is, used as a high surface area product or grinding.
no i didnt mean to conflate ws2 with their tungsten microspheres, they are very different. ws2 additives are soft platelets, for very obvious reasons! FL claimed tungsten sphere additive (that remains spherical and hollow apparently) would be very different, and the concern is that very obviously they might acting exactly like tungsten carbide spheres - how could they not if they are remain spheres at that size and pressure...
So the Halo tungsten hollow spheres... Which you suggested could actually be abrasive... Tested about as well as lubricating your chain with sand? 😬 Poor finish line... From bad to worse 🤣 "They'll read that when they wake up tomorrow". What a great start to the day 😂
Tungsten disulfide is a slam-dunk additive to paraffin. Inert, non-toxic and cheap. Why over-complicate the issue with "spheres?" Dumb. Marketing ad-speak by MBA flunkees if you ask me.
Thank you for saving us all from another terrible lube Adam you rock!!!My Orbea Wild oem kmc chain only lasted 1429Kms(used silca hot melt),after watching your vid on best chain choice I switched to shimano xtr 12 sp and just wore it out at 4200kms using the same wax wow what a difference,my wallet thx you lol...Now I finally get to try the silca wax x,and they don't even list wax x anymore omg...Cheers Adam!!!
Thanks Glenn! and yes too date ive only ever seen not great lifespans from kmc chains. They have always tested fast with ceramic speed testing, but wear life from everything i have seen has always been a concern. And yes i believe hot wax X is discontinued. To me that product was just too hard to use overall. I am not sure why they had to change the base wax so much for the use on Nanene, but that base was was just so hard to break in. For a product at that very high price, to me it really needs to be both very high performing and a pleasure to use, and the brutal break in kinda nixed that. After testing it was a product that ZFC was never going to stock as i wasnt confident of customer satisfaction, and then its a high support + warranty risk as people paying circa $250 for 300 grams of wax will want to be having a good time vs a tough time. But i am sure Silca learned some groovy stuff from this product launch, i dont expect every product from every manufacturer to be nailed - all genuinely great mfg in the space will have some smash hits and some misses, but once one is afraid to fail, they can get to conservative vs innovative - and silca are clearly more in the innovative space which is great. Ie i think CS wet conditions is a miss at the moment, but i will be shocked if they arent working on an improved version already from feedback on v1.
Apparently they did a lot a lot - so yeah, i dont know either how it could be missed if my bag is representative of all Halo IM wax. But i think this marks the first time ever that i am actually concerned that what a company claims they have put in product may actually be in the product!!! Normally its lofty claims and lets see how that holds up against reality. This time its your saying you put WHAT in your lubricant.... and then maybe they have..... holy batman....
the crank based strain gauge would work for a "before and after" scenario as long as the only thing that changed is the lubricant. I don't even think it matters if you start off with everything brand new, as long as you reset the chain properly. my guess is that's exactly what happened: used the same chain but didn't clean it properly prior to waxing. just because they are a pro rider doesn't mean they know how to do research
Erm no that will not work at all. You could run a belt drive and geared up - the crank PM is measuring the riders power, not losses in any system. If the cyclist is doing 90 cadence at X newtons avg force = X power. What is happening after that the crank has no idea nor care. Ie FTT machine loss testing there is a torque sensor on drive shaft (equivalent to crank pm), and one on the braking shaft. Then you have a measure at crank end, and the wheel end, and a loss difference between the two. If you took away the torque sensor at the wheel end, all you have is input power, thats it. You cannot assess any losses that way.
50:22 Why not just do away with factory greased chains and do only factory waxed chains? Would the wax not prevent the storage corrosion that the grease is meant to prevent?
there is a few reasons - one it is simply higher cost and change in process from what they currently do, and that has cost. And so what level of chain do they look to do this for - top two tiers, or all the way down to budget? 2) Fresh waxed chains are more difficult to set up new bike build and tune shifting until the wax treatment has been broken in, adding faff and time at the bike store 3) not everyone wants a wax chain, some people are very anti wax. I doesnt matter what a product or position is - there will be people for it, and people against it. This means it is unlikely large mfg would move entirely to wax for any model, and without that, they are doubling the SKU's for everyone, doubling the ordering and stock balance challenge for everyone etc which is a right pain in the butt already I think from a storage perspective wax would be fine for a long time, but some chains can sit on shelves for years and years, and so long long term this is not sure - FG has anti corrosion agent in it for this reason.
Yep, victor is a legend who knows how to ensure his bike is not the limiting factor! And yes i tested Dynamic Speed Potion for Team Jumbo visma but there was issues across 3 tests with 3 different bottles. I really need to try again from different batch, but Dynamic didnt send, and alas it is not very high global market distribution or interest really vs many other products, so a re test from a different batch is a low priority. I havent published the test results even thought i was not a private paid test, just TJV requested me to test if i could - but the results were just way off (not Halo off, but way off) such that the main concern was potentially transit damaged, which is actually not that unknown for wax emulsion drip lubricants as they are a bit transit fragile.
A very reputable company in Colorado is switching from Silca to Finish Line Halo for their immersive waxed prepped chains. And they wrote the book on bike maintenance… literally.
See if you can get them to check wear some customer / athlete chains after approx 1000km - i really want to see what others are finding. I am getting some more commercial Halo from QBP but it will be a bit till i can re test, and am very keen to see what this is doing in the real world....
so far yes indeed, but...... their traditional line up does look really dated nowadays, and if ZFC opinion, far from competitive vs the best products released in the last approx 5 years. hence why i was hoping halo line up was big step forward with updated, modern and competitive products - a company like FL coming out with an IM wax and wax emulsion lubricant - brilliant. But then.... the marketing - we are now at a place where i think for the first time i am actually concerned that what a mfg says they have put in the product might actually be in the product!! normally it is hmm lets see if claims match reality as i think things will fall short here, but yeah - this whole micron hollow tungsten sphere thing (with exfoliation) is currently looking like a fascinating path....
i dont think so, but i will try to see what the athlete normally rides. Point is though it is measuring the athletes output, it cannot measure what is happening after that. So if he was minus 15w one day - he was down on his own performance. If he was up 4w vs avg or expected - the athlete was having a groovy day. but far out mr athlete, how is he thinking that measure has anything to do with his chain and or lubricant, or his bb, or his pulley wheels, or his free hub bearings and so on. Again a non mechanically minded cyclist playing around can make this mistake but then be easily corrected over a post ride espresso, how this thinking went on longer than 5 minutes at that level between a pro athlete and pro mechanic, and as best we know its still going on - it should be impossible - and normally i wouldnt believe it could happen except the source is solid as bedrock! But that can help paint the picture re where some riders / mechanics / teams are at re their thinking acumen on making best lubricant decisions....
@@zerofrictioncycling992 The world is possibly slooowly turning. I made a point that the powermeters from Shimano are absolute shite. Should be recalled... Oh, wait.. Rgr
@@borano2031 yeah the coverage on them over literally years now by the best in the world like DC rainmaker and GP Lama - i dont get it. I dont get it at all. I am generally a big shimano fan on a lot of things (but somethings seriously wtf is going on.... like their PM's). How does a company with the resources and engineering depth as shimano STILL not have this sorted. And i would say customers made right / whole for their purchase - but then again we see how they have tried to avoid making customers whole, and safe, with the crank failure issue - which if they acted what circa 7 years ago when they absolutely already knew they had an issue - they would have had a small situation to resolve, not a global cluster faark. As the saying i personally like to live by goes - you want to wrong for the least amount of time. As soon as you realise you are wrong about something - change your position and if necessary act on whatever you need to. Continuing to defend a position you now know to be wrong is just ...... I dont get why it is so bloody common! There are worse things to being temporarily a bit embarrassed - have the backbone to just wear it, move off the wrong position vs defend it, and then you build trust and integrity vs break it. I don't get it!!! It is exactly stuff like this as to why i quit corporate life quite some time ago. All large companies have systemic issues, and everyone is pushed to defend frankly immoral and wrong positions / decisions by the company that hurts the customer. I cant stand that.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 With that background, it´s easy to tell why you do your ZFC channel your way. I´m not a Shimano fan but following bike industry in the past 30 years, you can´t miss their belly flops. PMs, cranksets and the biggest, their cassette body. Some say Japanese people can´t stand to lose their face, you don´t make a better figure because your rabbit hole is deeper... But with the Chinese just around the corner, maybe Shimano doesn´t care anymore?? Keep up the good work, Alan!! Rgr
@@borano2031 Yes the losing face thing in some cultures is for sure a huge impediment to simple, basic, and morally correct decisions and actions being taken when they should be. There is far too much emotional thinking on many fronts getting in the way of simply the right and logical thing to do, we see this at omg levels in politics, but it is very present too in big companies where X senior exec has to defend a tin pot fiefdom that they have built up. Oh if only could be a fly on the wall and some meetings discussion X situation at some companies and then the decisions they make - it would be fascinating! Alas for some reason these companies dont record and release these meetings hahahaha
maybe chat gpt can give you the cliff notes? not sure - and sorry yeah im terrible. i keep promising to work on it then i keep being terrible at it. I will keep working on it :)
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Confucius say: "Pupil needs to travel through all the outer and middle courts of the Temple and listen to all the prayers and incantations of the temple attendants before Pupil reaches the Inner Temple where The Master resides, & attains Enlightenment."
Thinking that the chain makers should test the water with one or two (popular) sku's at first to see how popular the new waxed purchases would be. Not the whole range as you mention. Then roll from there. * but maybe not economical to do that, small numbers with high cost?
yes i think that is how it will go, but it is right pain for the big mfg to set up production line change to have chains waxed vs FG, and for limited run on limited models. I think the big OEMS will be watching whats happening with other factory wax popularity, and then maybe dip a conservative toe in
If you get another batch from finish line and get better results, would it be possible to compare the concentration and size of particles between the batches?
Not with the equipment and budget that ZFC's got ( we are talking X0000 AUD ). At a minimum you need something called a " laser diffraction particle size analyser " ( I used to test lab samples with one ). Really you also need to know what the particles are made of as well, so you know if you had a contaminated batch. These things need a computer to run the operating / analysis software so more expense. It's possible to send samples away to a testing lab but that is also not cheap. Have a look at the ... " Malvern Panalytical Particle size analyzers " to give you an idea of what is needed.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 I’m barely an amateur with this stuff but I could see having too many particles in the wax or particles too large causing excessive wear. Might be worth exploring if it’s feasible.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 I made an assumption and was wrong ! Also I will try to remember to wait a couple of days to see if you give an answer before I add anything ( don't always know if you will ).
hahaha yeah i know! trust me in the old days with a triple and 9spd cassette and as a teenager i would also never think about lubricant or chain wear and just ride until the drivetrain wouldnt ride anymore and then replace everything. but nowadays.... life is too short to ride shite riding drivetrain, and omg parts cost for many groupsets is such that wow wow wow it makes sense to just a) run a proven good lubricant and b) regularly use a chain checker and then save heaps you can then spend on things you may be coveting like new glasses, helmet, shoes, winter layers etc etc vs just burning those hard earned $$ on replacing Drivetrain, again.
Well they're linked attributes right? Like a pro cyclist might run a waxed chain because it's more efficient and a consumer might the same waxed chain because it lasts longer. But it's lasting longer because it's more efficient.
@@thrawed the chain lasts longer, cause the chain stays clean, yes. And this is more efficient in a long run. But a clean lubed chain !could! be more efficient in dry and wet conditions. But I wax my chain not because it's more efficient, I wax my chain because it's similar efficient and the wear is more less. Maybe we should ask Indoor cyclists at the Olympics, what they use. But that was not my question. 😉
@@TnFruit Well you should be waxing your chain *because* it's more efficient. Have you ever noticed how loud an oil lubed chain is compared to a waxed chain? That sound you're hearing is also an indicator of being less efficient because that sound energy has to come from somewhere. Did you not notice all the teams at this last TDF using waxed chains? They're not doing it because they can get 10000km out of a chain. They do it because it's more efficient/faster.
@@thrawed the chain with wet lube is quieter. If I cycle 250km, my waxed chain get noisier after, let's say 150km. With a clean lubed chain, this doesn't happen.
Adam , you look exhausted . You need to have a leisure ride with friends . We had a mild temperature spell in the eastern states this week . Good time for cycling .
lol thanks robert, i actually feeling great at the moment! not as rushed this week without balancing a mini me on school holidays, and made some progress in the mountain of zfc test work backlog. All up been a fun week of work, training, family and chillax time - it is quite likely my natural look is haggard hahahahaha
@zerofrictioncycling992 Just wondering if you've had any issue with shimano chains flash rusting after initial degrease. Have experienced it with 105 and Ultegra level chains. I usually do 2 x white spirits bath, 1 x methylated spirtis bath and a cold clean water rinse. Then 30mins - 1hr air dry in summer and 1hr air plus heat gun on low in winter to dry off before immersion in wax. Never had issues with Sram or KMC chains.
Why would you rinse with water after methylated spirits? This leaves it spotless. Seems like a waste of time, only to ask things to rust. Plus, if you have hard water, you're only asking for dissolved solids to stick to your chain (aka "water spots"). I'm doing similar, but 2X mineral spirits, then 2X 91% isopropyl alcohol. I blow out the chain after each cleaning with compressed air. After the alcohol, it's pristine. Blow it out, put it in the sun for 10 minutes, and then into the wax pot.
@@dudeonbike800 The methylated spirits/IPA baths are ment to dissolve/remove the white spirits and are ideal because they fully evaporate from the chain. Indeed, rinsing with water can only give problems. Water will add some dissolved salts, which accelerate corrosion. If using water, I would also recommend using boiling water instead of cold because it aids in evaporation from the chain.
yeah...... who knew that (possibly....) putting something really abrasive in your product would outwear products that simply dont even penetrate if rubbed on the outside..... i really want to understand what is going on here!
ha wow - never knew just a thumbnail could be so.....triggering. Do you prefer the ones where people pull dumb expressions to convey the video (shock, surprise, confusion...). Hope your day is not to difficult with the emotional turmoil from thumbnails on YT vids :)
Finish Line Product Development Team: "I know, we'll go off on some pseudo-scientific tangent about 'spherical tungsten particles', & confuse them with graphite buckyballs, or sumfin', with our new hastily-cobbled-together product and expect people to buy our malarky" Real world, as sussed out by ZFC: product completely marmalizes chains and performs worse than sewing machine oil. ZFC: (being very diplomatic about what is obviously a huge crock of poo): "FL management, I think you'd better take a look at this, guys. I think you might have made an error" FL: " . . . " (frantic corporate arse-covering, garment rending and teeth-gnashing. Demotions and sackings on the corporate horizon). Q: if I can buy slabs of good quality high purity paraffin wax for $20/kg, a lifetime's worth of .5 micron MoS2, WS2, and PTFE powder for $50, a slow cooker for $30, and make my own really quite good chain wax, how the living #$&% did they get it so catastrophically wrong? You're right Adam, it looks like soggy sandcastle ruins. Perhaps a metaphor for the whole sorry enterprise.
Hi 👋. Just wanted to give you a massive thanks for all the information and hard work. Without all the amazing work you do we would all fall for the marketing BS on some brands.
It’s totally changed what products I use and can already see great results.
Top job and what a superstar.
All the very best and please keep up the fantastic work.
Tony.
DITTO!
Finally made the switch just over a month ago and kicking myself for waiting so long. Been riding & cleaning & lubing chains for 51 years. Only now to try wax? WTF was I thinking? It is amazing so far for me. To just ride and ride and ride in dry, totally dusty off-road conditions and not give second thought to dousing my drive train and entire bike in dust. It.doesn't.matter. This stuff is unreal. And I haven't put any road miles on it yet. Been too busy riding off road to enjoy the benefits of road riding that has a million times less grit, grime and abrasive abuse. I'm thinking a scenario like this, "When did I last lube my road chain? What year is it?" Ha, ha!
And ZFC has really exposed the serious drawbacks of "abrasive paste chain lube." The stuff simply DOES NOT WORK. It's so bad, you kinda start thinking it must be a conspiracy or something to boost chain, cassette & chain ring sales. Because the way I see it, there's NO REASON anyone trying to "move units" is gonna be happy about immersion waxing!
Kudos to Adam & ZFC for what he's done!
Thanks for your hard work. You’ve been an ongoing source of inspiration and have had a large impact on how I approach the world of bicycle repair for myself, my friends, and my customers. I am a better bicycle mechanic and person because of you. Thanks.
Well said, agreed, and me too...
This is crazy.
Thank you for your service.
Just did my first wax tonight! Used fully refined paraffin wax, which is supposed have less than 0.5% oil content. Will see how that goes.
Halo Hot Melt Grinding Paste. If you can’t fix it, feature it.
@@RyonBeachner maybe it grinds the chain down so fast it disappears... Zero friction!
It's well worth watching for anyone interested in the lube used on your drivetrain. To be totally honest, I usually skip through Adam's videos to the bits I think will be of interest; however, I watched the whole thing this time. Great work; keep them coming.
My commute bike gets ridden in rain and left outside in the wet often while I'm at work. I just swap it out when I get home, dry with an air duster, wipe and re-wax with Silca hot melt wax. So far no problems with corrosion and will try it year-round.
What purpose does the CBN paricles in this wax serve? I know in machining CBN tooling is used for cutting extremely hard materials. It seems like this is literally what's known as 'lapping paste' used for abrading surfaces at very fine levels. Is it possible the abrasion is coming from the CBN not the tungsten?
CBN? do you BN? Boron nitride is there ceramic friction modifier - this is soft and no concerns from that. whether it is as competitive as other friction modifiers is a questions, as the additive is FAR les common, and many other top players have tested it, found it inferior vs say moly, Ws2, graphite etc and so it is much more common to see those friction modifier additives vs BN, which is normally reserved for very high temp applications. My thoughts so far are that BN is used by those who want to go to market with a "ceramic" marketing angle for sales vs it being actually the best additive, but i await FL to prove that BN is superior and why they choose BN
@@zerofrictioncycling992 I had the CBN mixed up. I was thinking of Cubic Boron Nitride instead of Ceramic Boron Nitride.
Looking at your pick of the HALO wax i thought maybe you were sharing a pic of your fried fish next to the bag ;-D
Once I realized it was the wax, my first thought was I'll just continue with Silca Super Secret as there is no way that the HALO wax was ever going to see my chain! I think maybe Finish Line has a lot of work to do!
i have just got this to do waxing for customers - used silca for a while now but at trade this is a better option, on my personal bike my XTR chain went through 1 cycle with zero wear...ZERO! - just want to know, is it maybe better performing in adverse conditions? Maybe water and grit and grime etc are more where it is targetted like normal weather vs the very occasional bright and sunny day outside!
Thanks james - please keep doing and please keep monitoring. Currently investigating on a bunch of fronts, and overall more information is going to be better. I have completed block one test again on new chain, different test machine, and yep, just as bad (slightly worse) than test one.
Potential differences are - a) is that xtr 12spd? If yes they are much more wear durable than 11spd ultegra, so it may take a little longer to first compromise its very hardy wear protection coating - part 2) can you do two chains on rotation, one with silca, one with halo, and check wear on both after circa 1000km?
and b) one theory by an industry leader is that it is possible with products like this that batching issues to start are difficult. Ie it has been seen with sealant containing particles - that the particles start to clog the nozzles filling the bottles. Bottle one contains correct amount, bottle 2 less, bottle 3 less again, bottle 4 less again, bottle 5 now hardly any, then from pressure the clog is blown out and bottle 6 contains 5x what it should.
It is possible something is going on with this. One bag seen overseas had a golfball size white blob, which mine didnt have. And this would be unusual. So ratio's of BN and whatever the heck this tungsten additive are could be all over the place. Yours might have barely any, i might have a very concentrated blend. I am going to be sending my current one off for analysis and getting another bag from commercial sale soon ish.
Suffice to say, we dont have the answers yet, and disappointingly nothing yet from FL. But what i do have is a big concern, as whatever i have is like sand wax.....
but if offering as a commercial service... if i was me, i would want to be 100% that the product is as claimed first. If a shop genuinely cares about their customer experience, and ended up with customers with very high wear on chain, and get caught out ripping past 0.5% and wearing cassette etc - does the shop offer to make that right? that could be expensive, and if not, then it could easily cost a good customer.
i understand better margins etc - i cant say that in aus selling silca is very profitable as margins are really borderline (around 30% gross margin which post taxes, costs of doing busines etc leaves me with about 5% net margin - so.... for every $100 of silca sold, im left with a net $5 in my pocket. Yeehaa. Really we hope for a minimum 40% gross margin but yeah... silca aint that here) - so for sure a higher margin is tempting - but i personally would hold off until its known this is a genuine top product.
I would chat to mspeedwax if you are in USA - you can get from the direct so no importer middle man to pay margin too, and mspeedwax is brilliant.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 I get what you are saying. I have no way of testing durability due to it being mountain bike and I still have lots of silca left in my pot - the plan was to keep the pot topped up with the FL and at the price I can get it for it made a lot more sense than having to buy into Silca where they want you to buy everything in the chain maintenance line up and I just don’t sell enough lube or waxings to make it a worthwhile investment - I am doing waxing as an included part of my service so wanted something that would be good enough without the price tag so I can include it without worrying. People also tend to either over or never lubricate a chain!
My go to lubricant before was one called Fenwicks Professional which is a U.K. brand and I have found to be flippin brilliant both for wear and also cleanliness (as clean as wax) I just got a little fed up with the faff of getting it all set up and done and waxing just makes it so much easier and longer lasting - I still use it as a top up every month though to keep it running smoother - Silca drip is £40 here vs Fenwicks which is £17 for the same size bottle, I can’t really believe it would be any better aside from maybe during winter months where the Fenwicks only lasts a couple or weeks.
It would be REALLY interesting to look at their testing setup/routine, and to look at all the metrics measured. Finish Line make deecent products, so something is very, very wrong here.
yes - based on wear coming in, i currently dont have any clue how this could not be picked up in their own testing, so i really need to get information. But i think this marks the first time ever that i am actually concerned that what a company claims they have put in product may actually be in the product!!! Normally its lofty claims and lets see how that holds up against reality. This time its your saying you put WHAT in your lubricant.... and then maybe they have..... holy batman....
On the ProTour waxing topic, I believe that you accurately summarized the key issue, that being that the overarching benefits of immersive waxing for the average cyclist (contamination resistance and drivetrain longevity) don't translate well to the concerns and needs of the ProTour.
The other major concern for ProTour teams is sponsorships, it is not hard to see examples of teams using what may not be the optimal setup because of sponsor requirements.
Victor Campanaerts instructs the Lotto mechanics to remove his self-waxed chain every day after a race, put it to one side, and reinstall it after they clean his bike(s). He's a waxer through and through. Having been a team mechanic, I can see how many of my erstwhile peers operate: in little grooves, and they only change when forced to by equipment sponsors' or riders' requirements. Jet-washing bikes is surely a stupid indulgence in days of $400 per assembly ceramic bearings.
Olympic track cyclists - riding in pristine conditions - are using immersion wax. Given the attention the bikes get plus the practically "clean room" riding conditions, this is a VERY strong argument for wax. In other words, I'm guessing they've found friction testing results to be so good - especially considering the massive torque loads they put down - that it's a significant benefit.
If you want proof, watch the American coverage of women's sprint race from 2-3 days ago. At 21:20 into the broadcast, they zoom in on a few track bike chain rings & chains. Zoom in on the image and you can see the hardened wax around the edges of the outer chain plates.
This is what I call "the clincher" as far as wax is concerned. (Nice pun, eh?!!)
Thanks as always Adam. Great stuff. Good luck with your race!
Thanks Cat! im a bit worried - its my 299th race, with race 300 should be next weekend at cx state titles, but i am nursing a left calf injury - so lets hope i survive today and the next week of training to get race 300 in the bag, it would be sort of on trend for me to get to 299 and then have to have an injury time out and delay race number 300 and miss the states. Not sure yet how to nurse my calf in all the brutal accelerations and jumping over barriers in a cx race but we shall see.... hunting for my compressing sock shortly..... :)
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Holy cow! 300 races? That is amazing. When did you start racing?
@@CatManDoSocial Started in 2012. I set myself a frankly silly and likely very unachievable goal of trying to do 1000 bike races. Even trying to do 20 a year, which is hard to do at the moment as main focus is mini me sports and other activities - thats still 50 years hahahaha!! At my current rate i will need to race well into my 90's - possibly longer, which with inevitable injury, illness, life impacting number of races some years - keeping that rate each year will be unlikely - however, i may (MAY) when actually retire and mini me grown up be able to increase - some peeps at racing that are older, retired and all sorted just race oodles locally and around the country doing all the cool events, so if i can stay healthy i might be increase numbers - but still, the goal is very very unlikely - however, i am just going to see how close i can get, its a fun way to try to not get too out of shape as i age :)
So yeah, i am planning to DOMINATE master 10 racing in some decades lol!
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Haha. That is absolutely amazing. Good for you. I truly hope you stay healthy and injury free. I raced triathlon for a few years quite a while back and have done a couple MTB races but I finally just accepted that racing isn't for me. I love the training but the racing just isn't fun for me and it just stresses me out. I really wish it didn't but that's life. Certainly glad you enjoy it! Be well my friend.
@@CatManDoSocial yeah i dont do a lot of road racing (actually barely any these days), as although im not stressed about the race, a lot of other people are, and also the officials seem to go to specific training on how to ensure they and everyone else is as tense and stressed as possible. Most of my racing is xc and cx and gravel, and that is lovely and relaxed. And you dont have to faff with wheel suckers, or people not working in the break - it is just your skill, your fitness vs everyone else, and you get to ride lots of really fun courses and events, and whilst i am not very competitive at all these days and my training is thus generally very relaxed and not very focused - i enjoy the different events and the general mix up in training it brings. Ie this weekend is cx state champs, so i will get a good 2.5 to 3hr z2 ride in tomorrow, then intervals and tune taper for that. When i have an xc marathon or a long gravel event, they i change up the training a bit around that - and zoom around to recon the mtb park for the next mtb race etc.
And over the years you meet a lot of groovy people at the events that you get to have fun racing and chats with and training with and some fun adventures on some events indeed. It is like a lot of things - if you have 10 races - 2 or 3 of them might be a bit rough or simply meh for one reason or another, 4 or 5 might be just nice groovy fun, and 2 or 3 were a belting ol time and adventure and or grand fun battle with a buddy or two.
But yes dont worry you are not alone re stress, i have seen a bunch of peeps over time race for awhile but just struggle for it not to be negative stress on them, whereas for me its all positive fun - it doesnt matter if im 5th or 50th - how fast i am or am not on a bike really doesnt mean anything - i just enjoy the fun and aventure and comeradery of the events and yeah especially the cx / xc / gravel scene - its really relaxed and friendly and a grand ol time out on the trails. So if you ever do think about it again - try gravel and or cx (in adelaide their is a "chonklocross" category now so you dont have to worry about stupid 33mm tire width rules, you just race yr gravel bike, yeehaa.
But i do remember in my younger faster days a decade ago, i was pretty nervous for i reckon about my first circa 50 races (which were road... which doesnt help) - i think thats pretty normal, but yeah once you have done your first hundred, you are relaxed from then for the next decades hahahaha
For waxing in protour team i would guess that they just prepare as many chains to last a week. Rewaxing could then be done on rest days in grand tours or simply after any shorter races. Wondering about the Visma proces now they are being sponsored by Silca.
Given the budgets, and the size of the trucks, even for tdf, just pack enough chains for the whole tour. Bike mechanics are often luddites, I wouldn't count on them to melt wax and so on.
yes absolutely, considering the number of chains they have access to - pre prepping a whole lot and breaking them in on machine should be easy for a well set up team - remember the pics we used to see of 200+ tubulars pre glued and then put onto wheelsets - they didnt need to do a lot of gluing, allowing 24hrs, re coat, allow 24hrs, install on wheel etc after a stage, as that is rather difficult - it was all pre done. Waxing chains is a lot easier and quicker than tubular tires were...
Silca released a video a few minutes after this one saying they're working with Visma to try get them to wax on tours.
in terms of a Team setup, wax makes even more sense really, because then you're talking about one giant wax pot, do them all at once, maybe with hangers that have different colored handles on them so you can keep track of which bike the chain goes to.
BTW, my woodworking machinery has Tungsten Carbide blade teeth/cutters. Certainly goes through even knotty, resinous Aussie hardwood quite easily. Maybe they got the application use case wrong.
Are you sure they are Tungsten Disulphide microspheres and not Tungsten Carbide Microspheres? The former does appear to be a thing the latter is, used as a high surface area product or grinding.
could be a thing
They just went with what was on sale
no i didnt mean to conflate ws2 with their tungsten microspheres, they are very different. ws2 additives are soft platelets, for very obvious reasons! FL claimed tungsten sphere additive (that remains spherical and hollow apparently) would be very different, and the concern is that very obviously they might acting exactly like tungsten carbide spheres - how could they not if they are remain spheres at that size and pressure...
So the Halo tungsten hollow spheres... Which you suggested could actually be abrasive... Tested about as well as lubricating your chain with sand? 😬
Poor finish line... From bad to worse 🤣
"They'll read that when they wake up tomorrow". What a great start to the day 😂
Tungsten disulfide is a slam-dunk additive to paraffin. Inert, non-toxic and cheap. Why over-complicate the issue with "spheres?" Dumb. Marketing ad-speak by MBA flunkees if you ask me.
Poor is as poor does. It's a race, in more ways than the obvious. The also-rans get relegated.
Thank you for saving us all from another terrible lube Adam you rock!!!My Orbea Wild oem kmc chain only lasted 1429Kms(used silca hot melt),after watching your vid on best chain choice I switched to shimano xtr 12 sp and just wore it out at 4200kms using the same wax wow what a difference,my wallet thx you lol...Now I finally get to try the silca wax x,and they don't even list wax x anymore omg...Cheers Adam!!!
Thanks Glenn! and yes too date ive only ever seen not great lifespans from kmc chains. They have always tested fast with ceramic speed testing, but wear life from everything i have seen has always been a concern.
And yes i believe hot wax X is discontinued. To me that product was just too hard to use overall. I am not sure why they had to change the base wax so much for the use on Nanene, but that base was was just so hard to break in. For a product at that very high price, to me it really needs to be both very high performing and a pleasure to use, and the brutal break in kinda nixed that. After testing it was a product that ZFC was never going to stock as i wasnt confident of customer satisfaction, and then its a high support + warranty risk as people paying circa $250 for 300 grams of wax will want to be having a good time vs a tough time.
But i am sure Silca learned some groovy stuff from this product launch, i dont expect every product from every manufacturer to be nailed - all genuinely great mfg in the space will have some smash hits and some misses, but once one is afraid to fail, they can get to conservative vs innovative - and silca are clearly more in the innovative space which is great.
Ie i think CS wet conditions is a miss at the moment, but i will be shocked if they arent working on an improved version already from feedback on v1.
That wear rate is insane, how do you screw up a hot wax product? They’ve must’ve done zero testing
Apparently they did a lot a lot - so yeah, i dont know either how it could be missed if my bag is representative of all Halo IM wax. But i think this marks the first time ever that i am actually concerned that what a company claims they have put in product may actually be in the product!!! Normally its lofty claims and lets see how that holds up against reality. This time its your saying you put WHAT in your lubricant.... and then maybe they have..... holy batman....
Think I'll stick to silca hot melt 😂
Laws of Physics enters the chat
the crank based strain gauge would work for a "before and after" scenario as long as the only thing that changed is the lubricant. I don't even think it matters if you start off with everything brand new, as long as you reset the chain properly. my guess is that's exactly what happened: used the same chain but didn't clean it properly prior to waxing. just because they are a pro rider doesn't mean they know how to do research
Erm no that will not work at all. You could run a belt drive and geared up - the crank PM is measuring the riders power, not losses in any system. If the cyclist is doing 90 cadence at X newtons avg force = X power. What is happening after that the crank has no idea nor care.
Ie FTT machine loss testing there is a torque sensor on drive shaft (equivalent to crank pm), and one on the braking shaft. Then you have a measure at crank end, and the wheel end, and a loss difference between the two. If you took away the torque sensor at the wheel end, all you have is input power, thats it. You cannot assess any losses that way.
50:22 Why not just do away with factory greased chains and do only factory waxed chains? Would the wax not prevent the storage corrosion that the grease is meant to prevent?
there is a few reasons - one it is simply higher cost and change in process from what they currently do, and that has cost. And so what level of chain do they look to do this for - top two tiers, or all the way down to budget? 2) Fresh waxed chains are more difficult to set up new bike build and tune shifting until the wax treatment has been broken in, adding faff and time at the bike store 3) not everyone wants a wax chain, some people are very anti wax. I doesnt matter what a product or position is - there will be people for it, and people against it. This means it is unlikely large mfg would move entirely to wax for any model, and without that, they are doubling the SKU's for everyone, doubling the ordering and stock balance challenge for everyone etc which is a right pain in the butt already
I think from a storage perspective wax would be fine for a long time, but some chains can sit on shelves for years and years, and so long long term this is not sure - FG has anti corrosion agent in it for this reason.
Holy flipping duck shit Batman..... major fail..... finish line
Halo - Take your drivetrain to the Finish Line
love the barbed condom analogy😆🤣
Jumbo Visma were using Dynamic speed potion wax.
Victor Campenaerts likes chain wax.
Yep, victor is a legend who knows how to ensure his bike is not the limiting factor!
And yes i tested Dynamic Speed Potion for Team Jumbo visma but there was issues across 3 tests with 3 different bottles. I really need to try again from different batch, but Dynamic didnt send, and alas it is not very high global market distribution or interest really vs many other products, so a re test from a different batch is a low priority. I havent published the test results even thought i was not a private paid test, just TJV requested me to test if i could - but the results were just way off (not Halo off, but way off) such that the main concern was potentially transit damaged, which is actually not that unknown for wax emulsion drip lubricants as they are a bit transit fragile.
A very reputable company in Colorado is switching from Silca to Finish Line Halo for their immersive waxed prepped chains. And they wrote the book on bike maintenance… literally.
See if you can get them to check wear some customer / athlete chains after approx 1000km - i really want to see what others are finding. I am getting some more commercial Halo from QBP but it will be a bit till i can re test, and am very keen to see what this is doing in the real world....
FL dry red It looks best product of company lineup.
so far yes indeed, but...... their traditional line up does look really dated nowadays, and if ZFC opinion, far from competitive vs the best products released in the last approx 5 years. hence why i was hoping halo line up was big step forward with updated, modern and competitive products - a company like FL coming out with an IM wax and wax emulsion lubricant - brilliant. But then.... the marketing - we are now at a place where i think for the first time i am actually concerned that what a mfg says they have put in the product might actually be in the product!! normally it is hmm lets see if claims match reality as i think things will fall short here, but yeah - this whole micron hollow tungsten sphere thing (with exfoliation) is currently looking like a fascinating path....
The gravel powermeter.... Wasn´t a Shimano, was it?? Rgr
i dont think so, but i will try to see what the athlete normally rides. Point is though it is measuring the athletes output, it cannot measure what is happening after that. So if he was minus 15w one day - he was down on his own performance. If he was up 4w vs avg or expected - the athlete was having a groovy day. but far out mr athlete, how is he thinking that measure has anything to do with his chain and or lubricant, or his bb, or his pulley wheels, or his free hub bearings and so on. Again a non mechanically minded cyclist playing around can make this mistake but then be easily corrected over a post ride espresso, how this thinking went on longer than 5 minutes at that level between a pro athlete and pro mechanic, and as best we know its still going on - it should be impossible - and normally i wouldnt believe it could happen except the source is solid as bedrock!
But that can help paint the picture re where some riders / mechanics / teams are at re their thinking acumen on making best lubricant decisions....
@@zerofrictioncycling992 The world is possibly slooowly turning. I made a point that the powermeters from Shimano are absolute shite. Should be recalled... Oh, wait.. Rgr
@@borano2031 yeah the coverage on them over literally years now by the best in the world like DC rainmaker and GP Lama - i dont get it. I dont get it at all. I am generally a big shimano fan on a lot of things (but somethings seriously wtf is going on.... like their PM's). How does a company with the resources and engineering depth as shimano STILL not have this sorted. And i would say customers made right / whole for their purchase - but then again we see how they have tried to avoid making customers whole, and safe, with the crank failure issue - which if they acted what circa 7 years ago when they absolutely already knew they had an issue - they would have had a small situation to resolve, not a global cluster faark.
As the saying i personally like to live by goes - you want to wrong for the least amount of time. As soon as you realise you are wrong about something - change your position and if necessary act on whatever you need to. Continuing to defend a position you now know to be wrong is just ...... I dont get why it is so bloody common! There are worse things to being temporarily a bit embarrassed - have the backbone to just wear it, move off the wrong position vs defend it, and then you build trust and integrity vs break it. I don't get it!!!
It is exactly stuff like this as to why i quit corporate life quite some time ago. All large companies have systemic issues, and everyone is pushed to defend frankly immoral and wrong positions / decisions by the company that hurts the customer. I cant stand that.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 With that background, it´s easy to tell why you do your ZFC channel your way. I´m not a Shimano fan but following bike industry in the past 30 years, you can´t miss their belly flops. PMs, cranksets and the biggest, their cassette body. Some say Japanese people can´t stand to lose their face, you don´t make a better figure because your rabbit hole is deeper... But with the Chinese just around the corner, maybe Shimano doesn´t care anymore?? Keep up the good work, Alan!! Rgr
@@borano2031 Yes the losing face thing in some cultures is for sure a huge impediment to simple, basic, and morally correct decisions and actions being taken when they should be. There is far too much emotional thinking on many fronts getting in the way of simply the right and logical thing to do, we see this at omg levels in politics, but it is very present too in big companies where X senior exec has to defend a tin pot fiefdom that they have built up. Oh if only could be a fly on the wall and some meetings discussion X situation at some companies and then the decisions they make - it would be fascinating! Alas for some reason these companies dont record and release these meetings hahahaha
Is there a tldr of these videos somewhere? he takes so long to get to the point.
maybe chat gpt can give you the cliff notes? not sure - and sorry yeah im terrible. i keep promising to work on it then i keep being terrible at it. I will keep working on it :)
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Confucius say: "Pupil needs to travel through all the outer and middle courts of the Temple and listen to all the prayers and incantations of the temple attendants before Pupil reaches the Inner Temple where The Master resides, & attains Enlightenment."
Thinking that the chain makers should test the water with one or two (popular) sku's at first to see how popular the new waxed purchases would be. Not the whole range as you mention. Then roll from there.
* but maybe not economical to do that, small numbers with high cost?
yes i think that is how it will go, but it is right pain for the big mfg to set up production line change to have chains waxed vs FG, and for limited run on limited models. I think the big OEMS will be watching whats happening with other factory wax popularity, and then maybe dip a conservative toe in
If you get another batch from finish line and get better results, would it be possible to compare the concentration and size of particles between the batches?
Not with the equipment and budget that ZFC's got ( we are talking X0000 AUD ). At a minimum you need something called a " laser diffraction particle size analyser " ( I used to test lab samples with one ). Really you also need to know what the particles are made of as well, so you know if you had a contaminated batch. These things need a computer to run the operating / analysis software so more expense. It's possible to send samples away to a testing lab but that is also not cheap. Have a look at the ...
" Malvern Panalytical Particle size analyzers "
to give you an idea of what is needed.
i wont be able to but i think i will be able to send to someone who can.
@@dawn_rider thanks for the info :)
@@zerofrictioncycling992 I’m barely an amateur with this stuff but I could see having too many particles in the wax or particles too large causing excessive wear.
Might be worth exploring if it’s feasible.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 I made an assumption and was wrong ! Also I will try to remember to wait a couple of days to see if you give an answer before I add anything ( don't always know if you will ).
What do you expect from us mountain bikers? We were raised playing in the dirt and never stopped. "If youre gonna be dumb, you better be tough"
hahaha yeah i know! trust me in the old days with a triple and 9spd cassette and as a teenager i would also never think about lubricant or chain wear and just ride until the drivetrain wouldnt ride anymore and then replace everything. but nowadays.... life is too short to ride shite riding drivetrain, and omg parts cost for many groupsets is such that wow wow wow it makes sense to just a) run a proven good lubricant and b) regularly use a chain checker and then save heaps you can then spend on things you may be coveting like new glasses, helmet, shoes, winter layers etc etc vs just burning those hard earned $$ on replacing Drivetrain, again.
Technically, should your channel be named Zero wear cycling? Cause you measure wear, not friction loss?
Well they're linked attributes right? Like a pro cyclist might run a waxed chain because it's more efficient and a consumer might the same waxed chain because it lasts longer. But it's lasting longer because it's more efficient.
@@thrawed the chain lasts longer, cause the chain stays clean, yes. And this is more efficient in a long run.
But a clean lubed chain !could! be more efficient in dry and wet conditions.
But I wax my chain not because it's more efficient, I wax my chain because it's similar efficient and the wear is more less.
Maybe we should ask Indoor cyclists at the Olympics, what they use.
But that was not my question. 😉
@@TnFruit Well you should be waxing your chain *because* it's more efficient. Have you ever noticed how loud an oil lubed chain is compared to a waxed chain? That sound you're hearing is also an indicator of being less efficient because that sound energy has to come from somewhere. Did you not notice all the teams at this last TDF using waxed chains? They're not doing it because they can get 10000km out of a chain. They do it because it's more efficient/faster.
@@thrawed the chain with wet lube is quieter. If I cycle 250km, my waxed chain get noisier after, let's say 150km. With a clean lubed chain, this doesn't happen.
@@TnFruit That's a sign you should be rewaxing by then.
HOLY MOLY 🤣
8:30 the video looks a bit
TLDR
Looked like wet sand, performed like wet sand ... hmmm...
Adam , you look exhausted . You need to have a leisure ride with friends . We had a mild temperature spell in the eastern states this week . Good time for cycling .
lol thanks robert, i actually feeling great at the moment! not as rushed this week without balancing a mini me on school holidays, and made some progress in the mountain of zfc test work backlog. All up been a fun week of work, training, family and chillax time - it is quite likely my natural look is haggard hahahahaha
@zerofrictioncycling992 Just wondering if you've had any issue with shimano chains flash rusting after initial degrease. Have experienced it with 105 and Ultegra level chains. I usually do 2 x white spirits bath, 1 x methylated spirtis bath and a cold clean water rinse. Then 30mins - 1hr air dry in summer and 1hr air plus heat gun on low in winter to dry off before immersion in wax. Never had issues with Sram or KMC chains.
Why would you rinse with water after methylated spirits? This leaves it spotless. Seems like a waste of time, only to ask things to rust. Plus, if you have hard water, you're only asking for dissolved solids to stick to your chain (aka "water spots").
I'm doing similar, but 2X mineral spirits, then 2X 91% isopropyl alcohol. I blow out the chain after each cleaning with compressed air. After the alcohol, it's pristine. Blow it out, put it in the sun for 10 minutes, and then into the wax pot.
No problems with XTR chain. Some minor rusting with the XT.
@@dudeonbike800 The methylated spirits/IPA baths are ment to dissolve/remove the white spirits and are ideal because they fully evaporate from the chain. Indeed, rinsing with water can only give problems. Water will add some dissolved salts, which accelerate corrosion. If using water, I would also recommend using boiling water instead of cold because it aids in evaporation from the chain.
@@woutervanderdoes5163evaporate?! You mean you're missing out on the fun of setting your chains on fire to get rid of the meths? 😂
@@alexgold1981 fuck you're right 😂 I'm using the ufo clean nowadays so I won't have this amazing experience
Wow, worse than Wend Wax!
yeah...... who knew that (possibly....) putting something really abrasive in your product would outwear products that simply dont even penetrate if rubbed on the outside..... i really want to understand what is going on here!
Worse than wend wax needs some kind of participation medal
This thumbnail is garbage. Good thing you can hide videos i guess
ha wow - never knew just a thumbnail could be so.....triggering. Do you prefer the ones where people pull dumb expressions to convey the video (shock, surprise, confusion...). Hope your day is not to difficult with the emotional turmoil from thumbnails on YT vids :)
Finish Line Product Development Team: "I know, we'll go off on some pseudo-scientific tangent about 'spherical tungsten particles', & confuse them with graphite buckyballs, or sumfin', with our new hastily-cobbled-together product and expect people to buy our malarky"
Real world, as sussed out by ZFC: product completely marmalizes chains and performs worse than sewing machine oil.
ZFC: (being very diplomatic about what is obviously a huge crock of poo): "FL management, I think you'd better take a look at this, guys. I think you might have made an error"
FL: " . . . " (frantic corporate arse-covering, garment rending and teeth-gnashing. Demotions and sackings on the corporate horizon).
Q: if I can buy slabs of good quality high purity paraffin wax for $20/kg, a lifetime's worth of .5 micron MoS2, WS2, and PTFE powder for $50, a slow cooker for $30, and make my own really quite good chain wax, how the living #$&% did they get it so catastrophically wrong? You're right Adam, it looks like soggy sandcastle ruins. Perhaps a metaphor for the whole sorry enterprise.