Here’s another idea: Treantmonk’s favorite spell, Tenser’s transformation! Are you suddenly in armor you’re not proficient in? Gain 50 temporary hit points, grab a longbow, and do okay damage until you can get that nasty nasty armor off!
It actually might not be a bad choice assuming you built for it. Pact of the blade, high dex, a couple invocations, sharpshooter, crossbow expert your pact weapon is a magic hand crossbow. For a couple fights you attack with advantage on all attacks, hit for 1d6+17-20depending on stats(+PB on 1 attack and whatever the magic in your hand crossbow is)+2d12 for a couple fights might at least be fun, and if you are down on spells(pretty easy for a warlock) and a short rest isn't in sight hey it works.
Unironically I think this is a decent choice. Warlocks can pick up half plate proficiency pretty easily, if you’re a Tomelock then you can be using Shiellalgh on a quarterstaff to attack with Charisma (though it’s 1minute duration so you have to precast it and it won’t last the whole Transformation). But being locked out of spellcasting is less of a problem for a Warlock than a Wizard. A Warlock may well be out of spell slots and not have a chance to short rest before the next encounter, Tenser’s can be the thing to carry you through that next fight, especially if your usual frontliner is banged up. It’s certainly not a tool for all situations, but it’s better here than just about anywhere else.
IT's very nice if you have the homebrew where attacking with charisma is moved to the pact of the blade from hexblade. In that case tenser is a very good option for it.
My favourite option is: Major Image At Higher Level. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 6th level or higher, the spell lasts until dispelled, without requiring your concentration.
Another one I would add to the list is word of recall. 99% of the time this would be useless, but when its needed it can save everyone in a party. The only crux being you have to designate an area by casting this spell once before (unsure if the requirements of the sanctuary designation would still apply). But if it doesn't, casting this before a long rest if you haven't used limited wish can be an easy option to get a recall point.
This is exactly what I was going to say. It's an almost trivial matter during downtime to set up a small shrine to your genie patron some place safe, and as long a the downtime lasts at least 4 days, the drawback of Limited Wish is also negated. It is a solid option to make sure you always have a get-out-of-jail or even fast travel anchor point.
Wish; "the basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower. You don’t need to meet any requirements in that spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect." limited wish: As an action, you can speak your desire to your Genie's Vessel, requesting THE EFFECT of one spell that is 6th level or lower and has a casting time of 1 action. The spell can be from any class's spell list, and you don't need to meet the requirements in that spell, including costly components: the spell simply takes effect as part of this action. As it is worded the effect should be accounted the same as a normal wish spell, but there are some differences with a wish spell. You need to "speak" to your patron, which means that you at least need to say a word (isn't "subtle" in that way) 'the effect' of a spell means that the limited wish feature doesn't count as using your action to cast a spell. This means that you can bonus action cast even if you use this feature, and because it isn't a spell it can't be counterspelled.
I also think since you aren't actually casting the spell and the effect is taking place rather than with wish essentially turning into the spell. That's your argument for why concentration doesn't apply. It's not a spell which means that it's an ability and concentration on abilities is very rare.
I was about to point that out, it affects concentration as well. Concentration says: “Casting another spell that requires concentration. You lose concentration on a spell if you cast another spell that requires concentration. You can't concentrate on two spells at once.” But you are not casting another spell with limited wish. You however do with wish. It could be argued that limited wish is not affected by any rule under “Casting a spell”. Though, it might be affected by “You can’t concentrate on two spells at once” They really should have clarified this….
@@moto2442 I’d probably argue that since the parameters of the concentration are woven into the language of the spell, that limited wish counts everything past casting requirements, so you’d still have to hold concentration
@@burningwp I see this as a problem. More campaigns need to go above 10th. More so I think more campaigns need to start at a higher level like 10th. Literally half of the game is barely ever played. The part were a lot of the cool abilities are and MC builds can start to get really good or some are just starting to work. Plus if you start at 10th you know get to make a cool fleshed out backstory for an established person in the world, not a level one nobody with their father's sword, a burning hatred of orcs because they killed their mom and the clothes on their back.
Where we diverge in interpreting Limited Wish is, I don't think the Warlock is casting the spell. Maybe it's meant as flavor, but the description has them requesting the effect from their patron via their Genie's Vessel-and then the spell takes effect.
In the rules, concentration is a part of the duration of the spell, not a part of the requirements to cast. If you’re not concentrating on a concentration spell, the spell ends, unless explicitly stated otherwise (such as Fey Wanderer Ranger).
I think there is a reasonable argument that you aren't actually casting a spell though. The effect merely takes place and you probably couldn't end the spell early either.
@@moto2442 that is correct, with limited wish you’re not actually casting the spell. The wording is very similar to the spell storing item the artificer class gets at level 11. The exception being the artificer feature stipulates that concentration is required.
@@moto2442 Well then you also ave no control over the duration. Your patron may get bored and end the spell early whenever they want to. And seeing how genie kind are capricious they will.
@@binolombardi this is exactly where my RAW mental flowchart takes me. “Takes effect” is the key here for me. I look to Artificer for precedent/carve outs, and Artificer requiring concentration leads me to the decision that this Limited Wish request doesn’t use concentration.
Not had chance to watch yet, but one of my favourite 3.5e spells was the Forgotten Realms’ Anyspell. It was a limited limited wish. 3rd level wizard spell. You could cast any arcane 1st or 2nd spell that you had a copy of in a spellbook or scroll.
@@Coid Great spells. They are in the clerical spell domain so a cleric of Azuth, Mystra and others could take these spells and cast arcane spells from spell books 📖 🧙🏻♂️but they would be carrying these books and scrolls around in order to access the wizard magic 😊. There was a nice mechanic in the speciality class for clerics of Azuth in 2nd edition where they could choose one wizard domain and could cast spells from it as a wizard of half their cleric level. Fun mechanics 🧐
Hard agree that the strongest aspect of this feature is the versatility; it's basically a get-out-of-jail-free card. Also, Transport via Plants is a great target - get where you need to go right when you need to go there. Including as an escape from a desperate situation.
Similar idea to Transport via plants I've found, if there's no trees around but you know a person, Galder's Speedy Courier. Just cast the spell, set a destination, have you and your party hop into your genie lamp, have your pact familiar (or another friendly NPC) put it in the chest and close it.
My reading of the rules is that concentration is not a requirement to cast (or activate a spell) but a requirement to maintain it's effect. After all, you can cast a concentration spell while concentrating on another, you just happen to end that previous spell's effect. Since limited wish doesn't give specific rules for what happens after the spell takes effect, then you revert to the general rules. To maintain the spell effect, you need to concentrate on it. To me it's clear only the components are waved in the writing. Maybe they should of used that word instead of the more vague "requirements". Thoughts for future versions.
Fully agree. The wording is also vague enough that it can be used to teach players not to cheese strict RAW. Only the caster can concentrate on a spell, but this spell isn't cast "the spell simply takes effect", thus it cannot be concentrated upon. Interestingly, if you want to go deep into the RAW weeds to teach a player not to pull RAW cheese on you: technically you can only request a spell's effect (different from the wording of Wish in which you duplicate a spell). You can't request the target, there's no mention of the spell taking effect as if you had cast it or any similar language. "The spell simply takes effect" is all you get. RAI we can infer that it casts from you using your spell DC, but that's just an inference. Requesting a Fireball could see it dumped right on your face or on the other side of the planet and who knows what the DC would be. Going nuclear with the RAW can only result in mutually assured destruction.
Concentration is a requirement to cast. Any spell that has a casting time of longer than one action is required to be concentrated on for the entire casting time or the spell fails.
For Leomund's chest, your genie vessel would substitute for the miniature chest, i would feel. Seems thematic, its a tiny version of a container, bigger on the inside
I was just in a battle with Orcus, and my Genie Warlock and the Simulacrum our Wizard made of him both made *great* use of this feature. - My simulacrum used Limited Wish to upcast Immovable Object to 6th level, targeting the Wand of Orcus. Now only the party can move it, and Orcus can no longer attack with it. He was then moved with Repelling Blast, knocking him away from the Wand and disarming him. - The party had cast Forcecage three times to trap Orcus and keep him away from the wand, but he kept teleporting out. After he teleported out for the third time and summoned a bunch of undead as a lair action, I used Limited Wish to cast Scatter, relocating the party into better positions and relocating Orcus and his most powerful minions back into the Forcecage. Anyway, Limited Wish is amazing, and our party is currently doing their best to rest up for a week before going on to the next Big Bad, because getting that feature back is our top priority.
@@normal6483 I didn't catch every bit of audio, looking through comments. Caught a short note on it at the end. Did I miss a section explaining why it should work? If not, it's back to "Up to the DM". I certainly may allow it, just not sure it's RAW
@@ARatherDapperTapir It was in the first 1/3rd of the video, I believe. Basically the wording is similar to the Wish spell, and Sage Advice has stated that it's possible to upcast a spell with Wish.
8:00 As a DM I’d agree that, yes, thematically it is the Patron/Djin that is casting the spell, not the PC, the PC is only requesting for the spell to be cast The spells are already limited to having to be a 1 Action cast, and we’re talking about a highly limited 1 use ability that is for high level play (14+)
There's only one correct answer here: Fireball. Just fireball. ;) On a serious note, if you can handle some close range enemies for a bit, spirit guardians + eldritch blast/repelling blast/etc can be quite a combo. Word of Recall would take a bit of setup but could be an amazing situational use.
Chris, why does this video have the "World of Warcraft" Game Tag? I always thought that the Limited Wish "Spell" can't be counter-spelled, since technically there is no spell being cast, it merely springs into existence. In any case, great video as always!
Personally, I've viewed Concentration as both duration (it's listed there in the spell description, and lasts as long as concentration does), and a requirement (you only have one 'slot' for concentration, and you are required to maintain it to keep the spell going). I do believe Wish and Limited Wish need some clarification in regards to how they interact with Concentration, since the rules are so open to different interpretations. Even if we assume it's a requirement, does the spell's duration become 0 as there is no concentration? I could see the argument for that, among many other interpretations that would all be run differently and could have different implications when we start modifying the rules or adding homebrew. How does this change if we get a second Limited Wish? Is the Patron concentrating on the spell, and is it bound by the same 'only one concentration spell' rule? Or maybe there is no spell at all, its only the effect of the spell popping into existing through magical force of will. Aside from concentration, spells that have a requirement that is meant to be the enchanted or empowered object also are a bit funky. If you Limited Wish a Booming Blade or something that requires a weapon, what weapon are you using? Or in the case you mentioned, does it make the chest or allow you to use a different chest? RAW, there is no chest but still the effect of the spell. Maybe the 'chest' is simply a space of equivalent volume. Oddities and unclear interactions aside, I really like Limited Wish for the same reason I like Wish: Versatility. My go to would be Conjure Animals upcast (with an honourable mention to CWB), since (debatably) concentration free summoning is incredibly strong and it's not a spell Warlocks usually have access to. Most of the time though, I'd be saving it for that "I NEED WATERBREATHING NOW" type moment. It's always great to be the party member with the clutch save, and being able to do that every 1d4 days is awesome.
I don't think it's that vague on concentration, more that people want to abuse the white room of it doesn't say you have to concentrate so I will assume it won't. I don't think concentration is a requirement at all, concentration is a conditional duration. Under the same assumption, if you assume you don't have to concentrate you can also assume the duration is as long as you want it to be, if it's a requirement. The requirements of a spell are what you need to cast the spell, the components, class levels, prepared and or known spell, the ability to cast a spell say if you'd cast as a bonus action that turn. In fact I could also interpret this the other way, since you aren't casting the spell you can't concentrate on the spell. Therefore since no one is concentrating it's duration is just instantaneous, and so most concentration spells effects would happen and instantly disappear. It seems obvious to me that the limited wish requires your concentration if you wish to maintain the effect. Assuming otherwise is to assume you can bypass a rule simply because it wasn't stated in the ability text.
@@deathtoexistance There's no "white room abuse" about it. This has been coming up at tables since 5e Wish was printed, and as with pretty much every vague or open ended rule in 5e, it's up to individual tables and ultimately DMs to make the ruling. Even non-concentration spells have durations, and concentration spells also have maximum durations. I haven't heard anyone seriously make the argument that the length of time the spell can last is bypassed by avoiding requirements. "The requirements of a spell are what you need to cast the spell." That's part of the debate here. Is Concentration a requirement to cast a spell with Concentration? In my view, yes. We can see this in that if we attempt to cast a Concentration spell while using Concentration, we immediately lose concentration on the previous spell in favour of the new spell. As far as I've been able to read, this is not optional. Either you can cast a Concentration spell without Concentration, in which case you have a zero duration spell that doesn't break your prior Concentration, or you must use Concentration at least for an instant when casting a spell making it a requirement to cast the spell. This has some interesting interactions elsewhere: let's say your Wizard is Concentrating on Hypnotic Pattern, keeping some enemies out of the fight. They cast Fear on the remaining enemies. What happens? If Concentration isn't a requirement, the enemies that fail their save drop everything, and the Wizard maintains concentration on Hypnotic Pattern. Maybe an enemy succeeds and the Fey Wanderer Ranger uses their Beguiling Twist. However, what happens according to the rules on Concentration is that Hypnotic Pattern would immediately cease being Concentrated on in favour of Fear, even if the Wizard immediately drops it for no action. This leads me to believe Concentration is a requirement for the spell, and it is listed under Duration because if Concentration is dropped the spell ends. But again, the fact that this is a debate at all, especially with a high profile premiere spell and an upper tier class feature, says to me that Wizards at least should make some kind of ruling.
@@xInsane333x I think you're wrong. For one thing it's explicitly stated in the rules that one of the things that breaks concentration is casting another concentration spell. As such if something removed the requirements of a spell and you assumed it made the spell instantaneous, it would still drop your concentration of whatever you were concentrating on before because that spell was a concentration spell. Even if you ignore the requirements it would still be a property of the spell, such as its spell school. As such I don't see any value in an arguement based on being able to concentrate on a spell and cast a concentration spell without requirements and keep your original concentration. Also again I don't think this is an unclear topic. I don't see how concentration can be viewed as a requirement at all. As I said a requirement is the need for something, but raw you can already cast a concentration spell and instantly drop it, it just affects the duration. Basically I'd treat concentration like any conditional property of a spell, such as spells with differing effects for different targets. Take wrath of nature for example, the effects of the spell are conditional on what object is affected. Concentration is the same, the duration is instantaneous, or you can concentrate on the spell and it can last as long as you concentrate up to the duration listed. Arguing that you don't need concentration for anything that doesn't state you don't need to concentrate is a baseless arguement anyways. The designers have clearly said that concentration is a core rule you shouldn't overrule because it unbalances the game. It is clearly both design intent and raw that you cannot concentrate on two spells that have concentration at once unless explicitly said in the item or ability description. Again I think you missed the whole point of my arguement. The white room here is saying it doesn't say you have to concentrate, therefore it doesn't. Assuming you can bypass rules because the designers don't want to clutter every ability by posting every possible rule for each ability or spell is quite simply powergaming to the max. If you truly hold that belief you aren't concerned with balance or design intent, you simply want to abuse every rule ambiguity you can possibly come up with. I understand rule of cool is important to the game and to a lot of people, but it's quite clear what the rules are. If you and your dm want to break the one concentration spell rule that's your game, but make no mistake you are breaking that rule.
@@deathtoexistance I don't appreciate the statements that I don't care about the rules, balance, or intent. I've mentioned multiple times now I'd like the devs to give some kind of ruling or clarity on this. Just because you believe there is no ambiguity here at all does not mean others share that belief. I, for one, would like to know what the devs think. You don't have to maintain concentration on a spell. You do need to be able to concentrate on it to cast the spell; at least, that's what I get from the rules surrounding Concentration on cast. If for some reason you were completely incapable of using Concentration (I'm not aware of this ever being a case RAW, but I'm trying to illustrate the point), you wouldn't be able to cast a Concentration spell. "The designers have clearly said that concentration is a core rule you shouldn't overrule because it unbalances the game." In the tweets I could find, Rodney Thompson said it's fundamental to the game being functional, and that he wouldn't touch it. He went on to say that many spells require concentration "Not because of power, but because of how they slow down play." Later, they intentionally introduced ways to get around Concentration and other high level abilities that don't require it. I'm not saying Concentration doesn't exist, I'm questioning what the intention is in a specific case that doesn't specify one way or the other like multiple other features. I believe we will have to agree to disagree on this one, since it's pretty obvious we have wildly different opinions on the subject that aren't likely to be swayed overnight.
Dungeons of Drakkenheim (by the Dungeon Dudes) features an excellent use of Arcane Lock. Not something I would have ever selected given how circumstantial it can be, but my goodness, it completely shut down the entire encounter.
With how many warlocks build for forced movement, Blade Barrier was a choice I thought of. With the limited flying of one of the previous features, you could fly up and down giving yourself 3/4 cover, and being able to move them into the wall, and trapping them with the melee users, who might also being able to push them into the wall themselves.
Interesting vid. Thanks. A few additional suggestions… Circumstantial: Bones of the Earth (for when there is a ceiling and it is low enough) Dispel Evil and Good (in case of possession) Various 5th and 6th level spells with high component costs like Circle of Death and summons spells. And some teleport variants if you don’t have a druid or cleric in your party and want a guaranteed no worries get the party home spell: Transport via plants Word of recall (2 castings of limited wish) Cheers 🍻
I'd rule limited wish is different in that you're not asking for power to cast a spell, which is what you get for other spells, you're asking for the spell to be cast by another entity for you to get the effect. So you're not concentrating on it if it has concentration. The upcost of availability balances this nicely. Also, three patron may or may not want to continue concentrating on the spell depending on your relationship with them up to this point, or the task at hand, but that's getting more into thematic roleplay.
My DM let's me do the no concentration on the limited wish because we see it as not so much a spell being cast but the genie granting a wish and so we think the flavoring is cooler, same reason for it not being counterspellable etc. We base it more on a flavor thing than a spell thing in that wish is a spell you are casting and limited wish isn't a spell at all instead is a genie wish ability. I totally still support this ruling on mechanics tho!
I'm really happy you agree that using limited wish still requires concentration. The amount of discussions and downvotes I've had making the same argument on reddit is crazy. Even when making the same arguments based on the actual wish spell. Concentration isn't a requirement of any spell. It's part of the duration. There's instances where the book says "the duration is concentration, 1 minute" or the like. And neither wish nor limited wish affects the duration of the spell in any way.
I like the idea of not requiring concentration tbh, even the actual 9th lvl wish would be fine if it doesn't. However, RAW I'd say that both require, that's mostly because concentration is listed on the duration of the spell and not the components, if I happen to run a table tho I'd allow double concentration
Have you run a table before? Because preventing double concentration is on of the absolute biggest balancers in the game, no contest, it exists for a big reason.
@@ARatherDapperTapir my motto is to throw balance to the window lmao. Also wish can do much more than double concentration, it's not something I typically allow, but in the wish circumstances I doubt it'd break the game.
I would really love errata for the concentration aspect. I think the arguements for and against it are both really strong. Specifically, for me, unlike the wording in Wish, "duplicate a spell..." Limited Wish states you are requesting "The effects of a spell". To me, this would make Limited Wish something you could use while raging (assuming no concentration required) since you aren't actually carrying a spell. The rules on concentration state, "some spells require you to maintain concentration" and the key word "require" here makes me think of is one of the "requirements" that Limited Wish circumvents. It's interesting that the same book that specified with Favored Foe "as tho concentrating on a spell" (which Jeremy Crawford confirmed was intended to disqualify barbarians from using Favored Foe whilst raging, when the wording of Rage specifies spell) didn't clarify the point on Limited Wish. That specific instance makes a case for both interpretations: an example of a non-spell requiring concentration but also setting the precedence of explicitly calling that out. So, by my interpretation, when using Limited Wish, you aren't actually casting a spell. As such a limited use ability (1d4 days), I think it's reasonable to allow for "free concentration". I also agree with your metapoint that the most likely use case for this feature is as a "get out of jail free" card, as it's limited use makes me not want to build an attack strategy around it (despite loving the idea of dual casting Spirit Shroud, Spirit Guardians (via Lorehold), Spike Growth, or some other aura/control nightmare to shove creatures around with Repelling Blast.) Hopefully we get official errata at some point, or sage advice at the very least. I suspect it will be nerfed at that point. One day, I'll get Spirit Guardians on my Raging Barbarian...
Concentration is both a requirement for casting a spell and part of the duration of a spell. So while Limited Wish could allow you to avoid the concentration requirement for casting the spell (i.e. casting it doesn't break your concentration on another spell), it does not affect the duration which specifies the spell ends unless you maintain concentration on it. So yes you could absolutely cast a second concentration spell without breaking concentration on the first with Limited Wish, but you could not maintain the second concentration spell for more than that instant of casting it.
I will propose this argument about concentration. The spell isn't actually being cast, the effects of said spell are being produced as part of the resolution of the Limited Wish ability. There is another class feature that works very similarly: the Artificer's Spell-Storing Item. There are some minor differences in which spells can be used, but both of the features _produce_ the effects of a spell - not cast it. Spell-Storing item specifically states, "If the spell requires concentration, the creature must concentrate," which is telling us when we are producing the effects of a spell without casting it, concentration is not required unless stated in the effect's description. Also (now that I'm writing this), while I never liked reading Concentration as a requirement of a spell, because WotC's own words in the description above are "requires concentration" we're being told concentration is a requirement. Even under Concentration in the PHB the first line is "Some spells require you to maintain concentration." If we continue this method of validation and we go to the Spellcasting section of the PHB and search 'require' it appears under the following parts of spellcasting: Casting Time, Components, Concentration, Targets, Attack Rolls. - Casting Time is specifically constrained by the description of Limited Wish. - Components (VSM) are ignored both implicitly and explicitly. - Concentration is ignored implicitly. - Targets are ignored implicitly; meaning we can ignore that a spell can normally only target self, objects, willing creatures, etc. This section also covers needing a clear path to the target, which would also be implicitly ignored by Limited Wish. - Attack Rolls are ignored implicitly. This seems a bit strong, but the PHB does state "Some spells require the caster to make an attack roll", so this seems to imply that spells with attack rolls produced by Limited Wish automagically hit. Looking at the list of applicable spells this is honestly probably fine, especially considering the potential cooldown on Limited Wish. Interestingly Range is excluded as they switch to saying "The target of a spell must be within the spell's range" instead of using the word "require." However I wouldn't consider it much of a stretch to say Range is also a requirement that is ignored by Limited Wish. That makes sense to me even more-so than Target and Attack Rolls. Though I would maaaybe limit it to needing to be on the same plane of existence.
@@samuelbroad11 I'm not entirely concerned with fairness or balance when trying to make sense of the rules. I was just saying Range seems like something that would be listed as a requirement more than Target (Heat Metal on stone) or Attack Roll. But this is what happens when you have spells and features that say they ignore spell requirements, but what is and isn't a spell requirement isn't clearly defined. Personally if I were coming up with a solution I would break it into two categories: Requirements and Constraints. Requirements being anything needed to cast or maintain a spell; components, target, concentration. Constraints being anything that defines the effect of a spell; range, duration, size, shape, attack type, save type, damage type, etc.
@@samuelbroad11 Do you really debate these stupid semantics at the table? I would never allow it in my game, the DM makes a quick ruling based on their interpretation of the fictional world and it is settled and we move on. Arguing about word choice in a game book that explicitly is written in natural language and not rigorous symbolic logic is just asinine. It's a role playing game! So imagine the world and how spellcasting works in that world and come to a conclusion about how a feature works. Limited Wish is one of the few features where there are two obvious in-world interpretations: (1) the warlock wishes for the ability to cast the spell and does so - thus the spell uses the warlock's DC, the warlock chooses the targets and location of the spell, and uses their concentration to maintain it. - This is basically a nerfed Wish spell. (2) the warlock asks their patron to cast the spell for them - thus the DM roleplaying as the patron determine what spell is cast, when, where and using what DC and for how long it lasts. - This is basically a warlock version of Divine Intervention.
In regards to the concentration query: I think Limited Wish isn't _just_ thematically the Genie Patron casting the spell. I think it is literal. "You entreat your patron to grant you a small wish. As an action, you can speak your desire to your Genie's Vessel, requesting the effect..." Nowhere does it say _you_ can then cast a spell "...of 6th level...". It specifically states that you entreat your Patron and request the effect. To me this sounds like the Patron is casting it. You get the effect of the spell, but I do not see a reason your PC would be the one concentrating upon it. I think the Wish spell does require concentration because *you* are specifically casting Wish as another spell. Mystra isn't casting it for you. Mystra isn't manipulating The Weave *you* are. But, Limited Wish specifically states you are requesting the effect from your Patron. So The Patron is manipulating the Weave; not *you* The reason it is different than regular spell casting from your warlock is that the Patron grants you Pact Magic which allows _you_ to cast spells. They don't cast spell for you. That would only be for flavor and be a table by table decision.
The way I look at this feature is that it is the patron casting the spell effectively and will hold any concentration needed. But they are not actually there at least not physically. They are seeing through you their servant or the vessel or just generic "higher power magical vision" around their followers that doesn't need explaining because DM said so. (Side note to me warlocks are kinda like familiars to their patrons in a sense. So you could easily say your patron can easily see through your eyes at any given point. Although you could say you know when they are doing it unless they are actively trying to hide their use of your senses.) And through your link to your patron they would know when you want to release the spell other wise just concentrating on it until it times out.
Watched and enjoyed the video (as always!) and read the comments and your rebuttals. While I can see your point, I still think I would rule concentration differently than you. Limited Wish is taking an action to speak, not cast a spell. The casting is done by someone else. Therefore the concentration requirement would be on the genie, not you. In my mind it's more comparable to giving orders to a summoned spellcasting creature than to the Wish spell in that way. I'm really hoping JC speaks up to let us know how the feature was meant to work. Totally open to being wrong!
I had made that mistake about the one action cast and had to correct myself a couple of times on RUclips (yes I am a fool that goes back and changes things or says I am wrong). I agree with you about concentration on wish and limited wish because Wish can have ANY effect or simulate the lower level spell. Limited wish does not have an open ended effect. That is my 2cents.
When in doubt, they say to follow the fundamental rules of the game, unless specifically told to ignore a specific rule by a specific feature. Concentration isn't one of things listed that you can ignore with Limited Wish, unlike say Glyph of Warding where it does say the effected target doesn't concentrate on the spell.
They'd have been specific in the wording of Limited Wish if it were intended to allow free concentration, like they have done to the 11th Fey Reinforcements feat from the Fey Wanderer Ranger subclass.
the difference between wish and limited wish is that wish involves casting a spell, but nowhere in the mechanics of limited wish does it say you cast the spell, it just says you pick a spell and it takes effect
I feel like they should have clarified that you still need to concentrate on spells cast this way. The combination of not needing to meet the requirements and your patron casting the spell thematically, it can be reasonably understood either way, and I feel like either choice isn't hugely problematic. Casting one spell every 1d4 days without needing to concentrate on it at 14th level is not gamebreaking, but I can see why one could think it is too strong in combination with everything else they get
@@JonathanMandrake IMO it is mostly a problem with the Invocations, Warlocks scale exceptionally well compared to other spellcasting classes as they get new stuff every other level like martial classes do, and they get full spell progression as well. The only problem is that the stuff they get isn't super exciting after level 5 because so many of the invocations are just.. bad.
@@agilemind6241 I didn't mean when they get features, but the scaling of their spell slots. Somewhere between 1 and 3 levels of Warlock tend to have the best ratio between power and level investment, because 2 spell slots per short rest are already there, the level they are at only increases a bit, and at that point you can go into another caster class and use these spell slots as fuel for Smite, Sorcery Points etc.
@@JonathanMandrake The level increases just as fast as a full caster class, and you get them back on a SR so you can effectively double the number of slots you have. Spell power increases exponentially with spell level so getting those higher level slots and higher level spells is generally much more powerful than filling out your low level slots by MCing unless you are playing a martial-warlock.
But nobody is casting a spell, you are using a feature(it would be SU in older editions). That'd be like claiming a Rune Knights runes require concentration to maintain their passive effects, even though nowhere in the class feature is that stated.
I'm not sure how this "Consensus" was reached, maybe a remnant of the early days when fewer people fully understood the RAW, but it seems obviously incorrect to me. Wish and limited Wish are worded very broadly but clearly. when reading about the elements of spell casting Casting times, Concentration, and Components are all deacribed as requirements of a spell. Part one of limits your spell selection to single action cast times how ever after that it removes ALL of the spells requirements which includes not only components and concentration it even removes the casting time as made clear by the addition of the line "the spell simply takes effect" present in both spells. in both cases you technically aren't even casting the spell and it's effects would be immune to any spell disrupting effects that don't also specify magical effects. the denotation of the costly components I believe was differentiate it from casting a spell with a spell focus which let you ignore material components except for those with a monetary cost.
I found a little bonus thing you can do is use limited wish while raging. Imagine the barbarian casting disintegrate while it runs at you in a frothing fury.
This is actually a really good multiclass. Warlock invocations give you lots of magical features which can be used while raging because they're not spells, and warlock also gets lots of good setup spells that don't require concentration, like Armour of Agathys. That one in particular is great, because temp hp on a raging barbarian is essentially doubled. On top of all that, barbarians get con save proficiency, which is great for all those hugely impactful warlock control spells when you're not raging. And 6th level eagle aspect from totem warrior + eldritch spear + spell sniper is a very fun combo, and when else are you going to use something like that? Overall, barbarian/warlock is a really fun and versatile multiclass that plays like every martial class ought to play in 5e - with interesting, meaningful, and flavourful options! Obviously, going to barb 6 makes limited wish your capstone feature, but honestly it's a pretty amazing feature to finish on so that's ok.
@@saltypork101 I totally agree, that warlock/barbarian is a very interesting multiclass. Genie (fire) might be 1 of the best choices, if you don't want to sell your soul (fiend also gets fire shield) and because warlock gets an invocation for extra attack you could just stay at barb 3. Another warlock/barbarian I really like is with celestial and the gift of the ever-living one invocation. Heals yourself for 5d6 with automatic max roll from healing and resistance. If you don't need the healing at that moment, you can heal/bring back party members from the frontline with your bonus action, which depending on your build (greatsword/maul) youwould otherwise not do anything with anyway. Or with 9 lvls of celestial you can finally frenzy twice per short rest.😅
@@TreantmonksTemple Absolutely, but starting Barbarian and going to 2/3 gives you early game resilience, and if you go blade you really don't lack much of what a Barbarian can do late game. I wrote up a full 1-20 Ancestral Guardian/Fiend multiclass I've played to level 5 and it was a ton of fun! (if you'd have any interest in looking over I'd love to send it!)
Whether the warlock counts as the spell's caster (or the creator of the magical effect if we want to get pedantic?) seems like it's pretty fundamental to the concentration question. If you're not the caster of the spell, you can't very well concentrate on it yourself unless you're specifically conferred the ability to do so, like the Chronurgist's Arcane Abeyance feature which specifies that they count as the spell's caster except for any save DCs or attack bonuses.
There's a section of the DMG where they advise DMs on homebrewing abilities and class features. They strongly caution against any ability which would allow players to concentrate on more than one spell at once. I think they'd have been much more specific in the wording of Limited Wish if it were intended to allow this. The way I would rule it, concentration is part of the effect of the spell, not a requirement of it. It's the part which defines how long the effect lasts. Otherwise, a "requirement" of Fog Cloud is that there is no wind, for example. It's a condition under which the effect persists, not a requirement to manifest the effect. I hope that makes sense?
Thanks for sharing, Chris! Great discussion. I have a question, please. What if a Sorlock character has limited wish and quickens the spell. Does that improve the casting time in any way?
"As an ACTION, you can speak your desire to your Geine's vessel, REQUESTING THE EFFECT of one spell that is 6th level or lower and has a casting time of 1 Action... The spell simply takes effect AS PART OF THAT ACTION." I don't think you have to concentrate because there is no spell being cast, you're merely requesting the effects of a spell. For instance if you were to request a wall of force, no one is casting wall of force, the effect is simply taking place.
Great video making some great discussion! On cases like these, I tend to look around the game and see if what the player is requesting has parity anywhere else. In the case of not requiring concentration, I would say that in absence of clear wording, is there anywhere else that a spell can be cast without concentration, and what level feature is it? In this case: artificer and chronurgy wizard can both pass concentration off to another creature with a (sub)class feature. The features are 10th and 11th level, respectively, Limited Wish is 14th. So, I’d say the character could not forego concentration completely, but could pass it to a familiar, for instance, like those other features.
Purely for flavour, as a DM I would rule it needs a verbal component where you vocalise the wish to your patron out loud. Otherwise completely agree on the concentration feature. I forget where it is, but I think the DMs guide specifically warns against homebrew features which remove the concentration requirements as they would break the game. So I definitely can't see the creators intending this interpretation.
Taken to the literal extreme, if you think the spell just spontaneously happens and so you're not concentrating on it, then a concentration spell just immediately ends if you use limited wish to have it take effect.
Having so much fun playing a Harrengon Daolock with crusher and telekinesis feat. Playing him as bugs bunny, basically. Haven’t gotten to 14 yet but looking forward to it.
Hi Chris, thanks for the video. On the point of it being casted as subtle spell/counterspell: wouldn't the fact that you are formally NOT casting a spell invalidate any chance of counterspelling? In a way, it is similar to the new "Spell-like" abilities from the MMotM; on the other hand, once the spell is cast, how is it possilble to interact with its effect?
Surprised that Bones of the Earth wasn't mentioned. Non-concentration wall if you put the pillars next to each other (although not a huge one). Circumstantially if you're fighting under a ceiling can pin some people to the ceiling. Both uses are a little circumstantial but definitely the kind of spell you want to be thinking about with limited wish. Also, if you have a party with a lot of forced movement, Wall of Thorns is a perfectly reasonable staple spell to just toss out there. It's like wall of fire, but thicker (5ft thick), with an almost never resisted damage type, blocks line of sight, and reduces enemy movement to 1/4. I would probably look to Wall of Thorns before Steel Wind Strike in most parties (33 vs 31.5 initial damage by starting enemies in the wall, even if you lose concentration right away before any forced movement happens). Word of Recall is also an excellent panic button, but you would need to use limited wish once in advance to set up a sanctuary for Word of Recall.
If the Patron concentrates for you, how long do they maintain that concentration? If that spell must be cast in a single action, wouldn't indicate that the Patron wouldn't concentrate longer than that single action, either? So, hooray, you can cast a spell that needs concentration, but that concentration is immediately dropped after the single action of casting has elapsed.
Wanted to add some spells. Transport Via Plants, Summon Draconic Spirit, Summon Celestial, Seeming, Mass Cure Wounds, Circle of Power, & Polymorph. These also would be good spells, all 6th level or less, and 1 action to cast.
i was of the opinion that you can use a concentration spell without keeping concentration up, but because this feature, in no line of the description, says that you cast the spell. as an action you can ask to your vessel for a wish for the effect of a spell of 6th level or lower. nobody else had this impression? nowhere is written "you cast"
Hell this would work for my timemancer that I’ve wanted put together someday. Have the ability to have slow always up during bbeg boss battle and maintain haste both at the same time.
Speaking of counterspell I don’t think you are actually casting a spell with this effect. I don’t think anyone’s casting the spell. It takes an action to activate and simply states that the spells effect takes place never once that the spell is being cast. Idk any thoughts?
I believe this was pointed, but I couldn't find, so: Feature description says "requesting the effect of one spell that is 6th level or lower and has a casting time of 1 action". So there is no spellcasting at all, only effect. And no concentration, because of this.
About Concentration: One argument is that the patron casts the spell, but can't be bothered to concentrate on it, effectively taking concentration spells out of the realm of working options. On your list of spells, especially the low-level options, this is also a list of scrolls that are useful to have. Of course scrolls are class-restricted and (Limited) Wish is not.
8:15 At that point the spell also ends when your patron no longer feels liek concetrating on it. And we don't have any control over the duration of a cocnentraiton spell.
Most of the comments are about Concentration, but to address another matter... RAW, I sadly don't think you can actually upcast anything using this feature. Upcasting for greater effect doesn't have any general rules, but rather a specific rule stated in each spell that can have additional effects when upcast. That effect text always reads: "When you cast this spell using a spell slot of Nth level..." meaning that you have to cast a spell using a spell slot to get that effect. When you cast Wish, you can upcast a chosen spell, as you are casting the spell using the spell slot spent on Wish. Limited Wish, however, does not share any mechanical similarities with Wish. It is not the "Cast a Spell" action, nor does it use any spell slots, so the spell requested by taking the Limited Wish Action would be cast at its lowest level, in the same way any other feature that allows you to cast a spell without a spell slot works (unless specified differently, which Limited Wish doesn't.) As for whether it requires Concentration or not, that's more nebulous, but I think that RAW, you can't upcast any spells with Limited Wish.
So you actually don’t need to concentrate on the spell, bur for different reasons. It replicates the spell effect, your not casting it, which does 2 things. 1. The spell can’t be counterspell as it is not being cast. 2. Since it’s a spell like effect, but a spell, and since you’re not casting it, it doesn’t require concentration. The only time a spell like effect requires concentration is when they effect says it needs it, look at the option feature of Ranger for there non-spell hunters mark.
What spells have requirements other than components, and how could we exploit that? Is a requirement that you choose a target "you can see" a requirement we can ignore with Limited Wish? Does Transport Via Plants requirement that you must have seen the target plant before count? Does Wall of Stone's requirement that the panels be contiguous count? Can you Tree Stride through dead trees with Limited Wish? Can you use Rary's Telepathic Bond to communicate with an unwilling creature? Can you Dominate Person a non-humanoid?
I'd not worry about concentration just because this is a 14th level class feature and it seems pretty cool but I'm a pretty casual GM and it just sounds more fun.
You’re looking at the wrong line when it come to concentration. The line that matters is “…requesting the effect of one spell…” You’re not casting the spell, you’re simply gaining the effect of it.
There are no mechanics in that line. It's just flavor text. It would need something like "you request the effect of a spell that is cast by your patron" or something like that.
@@TreantmonksTemple I still disagree that that sentence has no mechanical value. Casting a spell is different than creating its effect, as with Spell-Storing item. However, I’m no longer convinced about concentration. We see similar wording on Spell-Storing Item and on Potion of Speed, but one specifically says you need concentration and the other specifically says you don’t. I’m leaning towards your argument that it does require concentration. I tweeted at JC, but I doubt he’ll answer. On a totally unrelated note, when is your game with Colby and the Dudes?
@@theresnoracelikegnome May 17th. 6 EST on the DD twitch channel. Both those other items represent a change from standard concentration. In one case, specifying no concentration, in the other case whom is concentrating. With no mechanical guidance, the base assumption should probably be it works as per normal.
That would remove all personal spells as options then. It also doesn't specify that your patron maintains the spell, you could argue that it takes effect for 1 round and then drops under the someone else maintains it logic.
@@Ahglock i don't think there is a concentration spell that last forever. it usually last up to certain point like a minute or hour. So it would last that long regardless if you want it too or not.
Does the fact that Limited Wish is a class feature & not spell make any difference? Class features that need concentration specify that you have to concentrate on them like you would a spell.
That's a little different, we don't have mechanics in place for whether a Trickery Clerics Invoke Duplicity feature requires concentration until it's listed in the feature, we already know which spells require concentration.
Question: If concentration were not a requirement of casting when would a spell currently concentrated on cease? If like all other concentration spells it ceases at casting, then it would seem concentration was a requirement after all, wouldn’t it?
The way I’m interpreting it, wish and limited wish don’t require concentration. For more comparison purposes, maybe we should also look into the artificers spell-storing item feature which has very similar wording and clarifies that it does require concentration.
to Treantmonk. Bottled respite - how far away would you say the warlock could be before entering the bottle? the description gives no distance. so say someone steals bottle and you already used your bottle for the day. Why can't they wait until they long rest and enter bottle from distance and just leave bottle and they are right with their bottle and try to get away from there?
My argument for why limited wish may not require concentration and wish does is pretty simple. You still cast the wish spell it simply duplicates the effects of another spell. Whereas Limited Wish the Spell merely takes effect. To me this implies you aren't actually the caster of the spell (and therefore you could not end it early either) you merely choose the spell and the targets.
Ah, but I still wonder which of those spells are best for a genie warlock to cast, rather than anyone else? Based on their other features and typical build, that is. Like which of those would you want to look to regularly, rather than situationally.
I am fairly confused on where anyone got the idea that the spell was upcast to 6th level since it doesn't seem to say anything like that (for this feature or the wish spell). It seems like both need an errata to clarify them a bit.
honestly i would debate if the casting time is actually required to be a action. since other components and requirements don't exist. does that also not mean that the time of casting requirement is ignored as well? the spell just happens as part of the action of the wish, it does not say that it limited to only spells that can be cast in the same amount of time. just that it happens as part of the "wish" action.
What about contingency? Or did you mention it and I missed it? Although finding a good contingent spell in the Warlock spell list might be an issue, having certain spells that can be cast with simple triggers can be useful. For example, a dimension door appears when you yell a phrase like "Open Sesame". Simple "things are getting hairy, imma scram button". You can do this end of the day when you have a 4th level spell slot to spare and gives you an extra casting of a super useful spell that is pretty useful in many situations. And while this seems wasteful as you can use your limited wish to cast dimension door anyways, this maneuver has some advantages. One, after 4 days (max) you will have your limited wish back and have 6 more days on a free dimension door. Two, helps with action economy: You would still have your action and bonus action. So on your turn do take your action and/or bonus action, then yell a phrase and skedaddle; assuming speaking a phrase is a free action. Downside would be on those 4 days (max) you won't have a get out of jail free card for situations where something like water-breathing would have helped better.
I will say this EVERYTIME genie wishing is mentioned: I will now ruin wishing for you and your friends; only continue for the correct wishes. Standard Genie rules apply. Wish 1: I, the wisher of this wish, wish for this wish, each past, present and future wish, all timeless wishes, real, imagined, and/or unimaginable wishes, and/or with, within and/or without time, space and/or any and/or any lack of descriptors and/or dimensions not forementioned, as I, the wisher of this wish, would wish for this wish to act in accordance to how I, the wisher of this wish, wish for wishes to occur, act, react, and/or function; which cannot be undone by any entity, non-entity, and/or otherwise undefined sentience or nonsentience, other than myself, the wisher of this wish; even so far as to exclude duplicates of myself, multiversal and/or omniversal variants and/or past, present, future, and/or timeless versions of the same entity that I consider myself, as the wisher of this wish. Wish 2: I wish for omnipotence and omniscience with self paradox correcting capabilities: such that I _can_ (for example) create an object too heavy for myself to lift until I wish to be able to lift it and also am fully capable of entertaining the concept of knowing pure morality and pure immorality simultaneously. Wish 3: Free the Genie P.S. It is my firmly held belief that I am the reason that wishing is not allowed, by whatever deity(s) may or may not exist, have existed or will have existed, in our shared reality, simply due to my own current, former and/or eventual existence. That or those bastards just found the genie first.
I used this on a mass cure wounds to bring a clericless party back from the brink of a tpk 3 making death saves and 2 in the teens for hp. Would do it again.
It is probably verbal in regards to having to speak the wish, but I don't think it can be counterspelled while I do think you could stop it with silence.
Would go spell by spell. Like ifbyou need a bonus action feature to deal damage but arent concentrating then no way to trigger it. Id be fine concentrating on some but. So copy of hex no, bestow curse yes. Moonbeam needs it but spike growth or sleet storm no.
I think that concentration is a Matter of duration, and not of the requirements. Fun Fact, Hahaha, how to Stop a concentration spell willingly if you have no concentration on it?
That's a little different, we don't have mechanics in place for whether a Trickery Clerics Invoke Duplicity feature requires concentration until it's listed in the feature, we already know which spells require concentration.
Here’s another idea: Treantmonk’s favorite spell, Tenser’s transformation! Are you suddenly in armor you’re not proficient in? Gain 50 temporary hit points, grab a longbow, and do okay damage until you can get that nasty nasty armor off!
LOL
It actually might not be a bad choice assuming you built for it. Pact of the blade, high dex, a couple invocations, sharpshooter, crossbow expert your pact weapon is a magic hand crossbow. For a couple fights you attack with advantage on all attacks, hit for 1d6+17-20depending on stats(+PB on 1 attack and whatever the magic in your hand crossbow is)+2d12 for a couple fights might at least be fun, and if you are down on spells(pretty easy for a warlock) and a short rest isn't in sight hey it works.
i had thought of this and forgot about not needing to meet requirements... lets say i had a strange wildmagic sword and wanted to cause some chaos
Unironically I think this is a decent choice. Warlocks can pick up half plate proficiency pretty easily, if you’re a Tomelock then you can be using Shiellalgh on a quarterstaff to attack with Charisma (though it’s 1minute duration so you have to precast it and it won’t last the whole Transformation). But being locked out of spellcasting is less of a problem for a Warlock than a Wizard. A Warlock may well be out of spell slots and not have a chance to short rest before the next encounter, Tenser’s can be the thing to carry you through that next fight, especially if your usual frontliner is banged up.
It’s certainly not a tool for all situations, but it’s better here than just about anywhere else.
IT's very nice if you have the homebrew where attacking with charisma is moved to the pact of the blade from hexblade. In that case tenser is a very good option for it.
My favourite option is: Major Image At Higher Level. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 6th level or higher, the spell lasts until dispelled, without requiring your concentration.
What an entertaining episode of _Everyone is Illiterate on Internet Forums_ with Treantmonk.
It's literally a case of a request to cover this topic, so I go online for ideas and find crap.
Another one I would add to the list is word of recall. 99% of the time this would be useless, but when its needed it can save everyone in a party. The only crux being you have to designate an area by casting this spell once before (unsure if the requirements of the sanctuary designation would still apply). But if it doesn't, casting this before a long rest if you haven't used limited wish can be an easy option to get a recall point.
This is exactly what I was going to say. It's an almost trivial matter during downtime to set up a small shrine to your genie patron some place safe, and as long a the downtime lasts at least 4 days, the drawback of Limited Wish is also negated. It is a solid option to make sure you always have a get-out-of-jail or even fast travel anchor point.
That’s a really great suggestion.
Wish; "the basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower. You don’t need to meet any requirements in that spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect."
limited wish: As an action, you can speak your desire to your Genie's Vessel, requesting THE EFFECT of one spell that is 6th level or lower and has a casting time of 1 action. The spell can be from any class's spell list, and you don't need to meet the requirements in that spell, including costly components: the spell simply takes effect as part of this action.
As it is worded the effect should be accounted the same as a normal wish spell, but there are some differences with a wish spell.
You need to "speak" to your patron, which means that you at least need to say a word (isn't "subtle" in that way)
'the effect' of a spell means that the limited wish feature doesn't count as using your action to cast a spell. This means that you can bonus action cast even if you use this feature, and because it isn't a spell it can't be counterspelled.
This is probably true, but limited in scope.
@@gavinerickson9392 This is huge. Being able to bonus action cast is super significant. Being immune to counterspell is super signifigant.
I also think since you aren't actually casting the spell and the effect is taking place rather than with wish essentially turning into the spell. That's your argument for why concentration doesn't apply. It's not a spell which means that it's an ability and concentration on abilities is very rare.
I was about to point that out, it affects concentration as well.
Concentration says: “Casting another spell that requires concentration. You lose concentration on a spell if you cast another spell that requires concentration. You can't concentrate on two spells at once.” But you are not casting another spell with limited wish. You however do with wish. It could be argued that limited wish is not affected by any rule under “Casting a spell”. Though, it might be affected by “You can’t concentrate on two spells at once”
They really should have clarified this….
@@moto2442 I’d probably argue that since the parameters of the concentration are woven into the language of the spell, that limited wish counts everything past casting requirements, so you’d still have to hold concentration
I'm playing a genie warlock now. Only 10 more levels until this comes into play.
I feel this comment
I'm at the same exact level on mine.
"ONLY" 10 more levels XD
Every time Treantmonk does a video on features above 10th level, I groan internally to myself: "alright, I'll watch it, but I'm not going to like it!"
@@burningwp I see this as a problem. More campaigns need to go above 10th. More so I think more campaigns need to start at a higher level like 10th. Literally half of the game is barely ever played. The part were a lot of the cool abilities are and MC builds can start to get really good or some are just starting to work. Plus if you start at 10th you know get to make a cool fleshed out backstory for an established person in the world, not a level one nobody with their father's sword, a burning hatred of orcs because they killed their mom and the clothes on their back.
Where we diverge in interpreting Limited Wish is, I don't think the Warlock is casting the spell. Maybe it's meant as flavor, but the description has them requesting the effect from their patron via their Genie's Vessel-and then the spell takes effect.
That was my first thought. "Who counts as casting this spell?" Especially considering the number of spells where that's kinda important.
The feature is not casting a spell. The wording similar to how the spellstoring item feature is worded from the artificer.
In that case, are we using the stats (spell save DC 17, +9 to hit with spell attacks) from the Djinni stat block?
In the rules, concentration is a part of the duration of the spell, not a part of the requirements to cast. If you’re not concentrating on a concentration spell, the spell ends, unless explicitly stated otherwise (such as Fey Wanderer Ranger).
I think there is a reasonable argument that you aren't actually casting a spell though. The effect merely takes place and you probably couldn't end the spell early either.
@@moto2442 that is correct, with limited wish you’re not actually casting the spell. The wording is very similar to the spell storing item the artificer class gets at level 11. The exception being the artificer feature stipulates that concentration is required.
@@moto2442 Well then you also ave no control over the duration. Your patron may get bored and end the spell early whenever they want to. And seeing how genie kind are capricious they will.
@@binolombardi this is exactly where my RAW mental flowchart takes me. “Takes effect” is the key here for me. I look to Artificer for precedent/carve outs, and Artificer requiring concentration leads me to the decision that this Limited Wish request doesn’t use concentration.
@@DaDunge the duration would probably be just however long the spell usually lost if concentration is never broken.
Not had chance to watch yet, but one of my favourite 3.5e spells was the Forgotten Realms’ Anyspell. It was a limited limited wish. 3rd level wizard spell. You could cast any arcane 1st or 2nd spell that you had a copy of in a spellbook or scroll.
There was also a Greater Anyspell that was 5th level, too, as I recall.
@@Coid Great spells. They are in the clerical spell domain so a cleric of Azuth, Mystra and others could take these spells and cast arcane spells from spell books 📖 🧙🏻♂️but they would be carrying these books and scrolls around in order to access the wizard magic 😊.
There was a nice mechanic in the speciality class for clerics of Azuth in 2nd edition where they could choose one wizard domain and could cast spells from it as a wizard of half their cleric level.
Fun mechanics 🧐
Hard agree that the strongest aspect of this feature is the versatility; it's basically a get-out-of-jail-free card. Also, Transport via Plants is a great target - get where you need to go right when you need to go there. Including as an escape from a desperate situation.
Similar idea to Transport via plants I've found, if there's no trees around but you know a person, Galder's Speedy Courier. Just cast the spell, set a destination, have you and your party hop into your genie lamp, have your pact familiar (or another friendly NPC) put it in the chest and close it.
My reading of the rules is that concentration is not a requirement to cast (or activate a spell) but a requirement to maintain it's effect. After all, you can cast a concentration spell while concentrating on another, you just happen to end that previous spell's effect. Since limited wish doesn't give specific rules for what happens after the spell takes effect, then you revert to the general rules. To maintain the spell effect, you need to concentrate on it. To me it's clear only the components are waved in the writing. Maybe they should of used that word instead of the more vague "requirements". Thoughts for future versions.
Fully agree. The wording is also vague enough that it can be used to teach players not to cheese strict RAW. Only the caster can concentrate on a spell, but this spell isn't cast "the spell simply takes effect", thus it cannot be concentrated upon.
Interestingly, if you want to go deep into the RAW weeds to teach a player not to pull RAW cheese on you: technically you can only request a spell's effect (different from the wording of Wish in which you duplicate a spell). You can't request the target, there's no mention of the spell taking effect as if you had cast it or any similar language. "The spell simply takes effect" is all you get. RAI we can infer that it casts from you using your spell DC, but that's just an inference. Requesting a Fireball could see it dumped right on your face or on the other side of the planet and who knows what the DC would be. Going nuclear with the RAW can only result in mutually assured destruction.
Concentration is a requirement to cast. Any spell that has a casting time of longer than one action is required to be concentrated on for the entire casting time or the spell fails.
For Leomund's chest, your genie vessel would substitute for the miniature chest, i would feel. Seems thematic, its a tiny version of a container, bigger on the inside
Great point!
I was just in a battle with Orcus, and my Genie Warlock and the Simulacrum our Wizard made of him both made *great* use of this feature.
- My simulacrum used Limited Wish to upcast Immovable Object to 6th level, targeting the Wand of Orcus. Now only the party can move it, and Orcus can no longer attack with it. He was then moved with Repelling Blast, knocking him away from the Wand and disarming him.
- The party had cast Forcecage three times to trap Orcus and keep him away from the wand, but he kept teleporting out. After he teleported out for the third time and summoned a bunch of undead as a lair action, I used Limited Wish to cast Scatter, relocating the party into better positions and relocating Orcus and his most powerful minions back into the Forcecage.
Anyway, Limited Wish is amazing, and our party is currently doing their best to rest up for a week before going on to the next Big Bad, because getting that feature back is our top priority.
While wishes obviously should be powerful, and your table is your table, I don't believe you can upcast through them by RAW
@@ARatherDapperTapir There's a whole section on that in the video
@@normal6483 I didn't catch every bit of audio, looking through comments. Caught a short note on it at the end. Did I miss a section explaining why it should work? If not, it's back to "Up to the DM". I certainly may allow it, just not sure it's RAW
@@ARatherDapperTapir It was in the first 1/3rd of the video, I believe. Basically the wording is similar to the Wish spell, and Sage Advice has stated that it's possible to upcast a spell with Wish.
@@normal6483 Ah, yep, the part where I trawl comments. Well, my mistake, thank you for calling it out.
8:00
As a DM I’d agree that, yes, thematically it is the Patron/Djin that is casting the spell, not the PC, the PC is only requesting for the spell to be cast
The spells are already limited to having to be a 1 Action cast, and we’re talking about a highly limited 1 use ability that is for high level play (14+)
There's only one correct answer here: Fireball. Just fireball. ;)
On a serious note, if you can handle some close range enemies for a bit, spirit guardians + eldritch blast/repelling blast/etc can be quite a combo.
Word of Recall would take a bit of setup but could be an amazing situational use.
Chris, why does this video have the "World of Warcraft" Game Tag?
I always thought that the Limited Wish "Spell" can't be counter-spelled, since technically there is no spell being cast, it merely springs into existence.
In any case, great video as always!
Personally, I've viewed Concentration as both duration (it's listed there in the spell description, and lasts as long as concentration does), and a requirement (you only have one 'slot' for concentration, and you are required to maintain it to keep the spell going). I do believe Wish and Limited Wish need some clarification in regards to how they interact with Concentration, since the rules are so open to different interpretations. Even if we assume it's a requirement, does the spell's duration become 0 as there is no concentration? I could see the argument for that, among many other interpretations that would all be run differently and could have different implications when we start modifying the rules or adding homebrew. How does this change if we get a second Limited Wish? Is the Patron concentrating on the spell, and is it bound by the same 'only one concentration spell' rule? Or maybe there is no spell at all, its only the effect of the spell popping into existing through magical force of will.
Aside from concentration, spells that have a requirement that is meant to be the enchanted or empowered object also are a bit funky. If you Limited Wish a Booming Blade or something that requires a weapon, what weapon are you using? Or in the case you mentioned, does it make the chest or allow you to use a different chest? RAW, there is no chest but still the effect of the spell. Maybe the 'chest' is simply a space of equivalent volume.
Oddities and unclear interactions aside, I really like Limited Wish for the same reason I like Wish: Versatility. My go to would be Conjure Animals upcast (with an honourable mention to CWB), since (debatably) concentration free summoning is incredibly strong and it's not a spell Warlocks usually have access to. Most of the time though, I'd be saving it for that "I NEED WATERBREATHING NOW" type moment. It's always great to be the party member with the clutch save, and being able to do that every 1d4 days is awesome.
I don't think it's that vague on concentration, more that people want to abuse the white room of it doesn't say you have to concentrate so I will assume it won't.
I don't think concentration is a requirement at all, concentration is a conditional duration. Under the same assumption, if you assume you don't have to concentrate you can also assume the duration is as long as you want it to be, if it's a requirement.
The requirements of a spell are what you need to cast the spell, the components, class levels, prepared and or known spell, the ability to cast a spell say if you'd cast as a bonus action that turn.
In fact I could also interpret this the other way, since you aren't casting the spell you can't concentrate on the spell. Therefore since no one is concentrating it's duration is just instantaneous, and so most concentration spells effects would happen and instantly disappear.
It seems obvious to me that the limited wish requires your concentration if you wish to maintain the effect. Assuming otherwise is to assume you can bypass a rule simply because it wasn't stated in the ability text.
@@deathtoexistance There's no "white room abuse" about it. This has been coming up at tables since 5e Wish was printed, and as with pretty much every vague or open ended rule in 5e, it's up to individual tables and ultimately DMs to make the ruling.
Even non-concentration spells have durations, and concentration spells also have maximum durations. I haven't heard anyone seriously make the argument that the length of time the spell can last is bypassed by avoiding requirements.
"The requirements of a spell are what you need to cast the spell." That's part of the debate here. Is Concentration a requirement to cast a spell with Concentration? In my view, yes. We can see this in that if we attempt to cast a Concentration spell while using Concentration, we immediately lose concentration on the previous spell in favour of the new spell. As far as I've been able to read, this is not optional.
Either you can cast a Concentration spell without Concentration, in which case you have a zero duration spell that doesn't break your prior Concentration, or you must use Concentration at least for an instant when casting a spell making it a requirement to cast the spell.
This has some interesting interactions elsewhere: let's say your Wizard is Concentrating on Hypnotic Pattern, keeping some enemies out of the fight. They cast Fear on the remaining enemies. What happens? If Concentration isn't a requirement, the enemies that fail their save drop everything, and the Wizard maintains concentration on Hypnotic Pattern. Maybe an enemy succeeds and the Fey Wanderer Ranger uses their Beguiling Twist.
However, what happens according to the rules on Concentration is that Hypnotic Pattern would immediately cease being Concentrated on in favour of Fear, even if the Wizard immediately drops it for no action. This leads me to believe Concentration is a requirement for the spell, and it is listed under Duration because if Concentration is dropped the spell ends.
But again, the fact that this is a debate at all, especially with a high profile premiere spell and an upper tier class feature, says to me that Wizards at least should make some kind of ruling.
@@xInsane333x I think you're wrong. For one thing it's explicitly stated in the rules that one of the things that breaks concentration is casting another concentration spell. As such if something removed the requirements of a spell and you assumed it made the spell instantaneous, it would still drop your concentration of whatever you were concentrating on before because that spell was a concentration spell. Even if you ignore the requirements it would still be a property of the spell, such as its spell school. As such I don't see any value in an arguement based on being able to concentrate on a spell and cast a concentration spell without requirements and keep your original concentration.
Also again I don't think this is an unclear topic. I don't see how concentration can be viewed as a requirement at all. As I said a requirement is the need for something, but raw you can already cast a concentration spell and instantly drop it, it just affects the duration. Basically I'd treat concentration like any conditional property of a spell, such as spells with differing effects for different targets. Take wrath of nature for example, the effects of the spell are conditional on what object is affected. Concentration is the same, the duration is instantaneous, or you can concentrate on the spell and it can last as long as you concentrate up to the duration listed.
Arguing that you don't need concentration for anything that doesn't state you don't need to concentrate is a baseless arguement anyways. The designers have clearly said that concentration is a core rule you shouldn't overrule because it unbalances the game. It is clearly both design intent and raw that you cannot concentrate on two spells that have concentration at once unless explicitly said in the item or ability description.
Again I think you missed the whole point of my arguement. The white room here is saying it doesn't say you have to concentrate, therefore it doesn't. Assuming you can bypass rules because the designers don't want to clutter every ability by posting every possible rule for each ability or spell is quite simply powergaming to the max. If you truly hold that belief you aren't concerned with balance or design intent, you simply want to abuse every rule ambiguity you can possibly come up with. I understand rule of cool is important to the game and to a lot of people, but it's quite clear what the rules are. If you and your dm want to break the one concentration spell rule that's your game, but make no mistake you are breaking that rule.
@@deathtoexistance I don't appreciate the statements that I don't care about the rules, balance, or intent.
I've mentioned multiple times now I'd like the devs to give some kind of ruling or clarity on this. Just because you believe there is no ambiguity here at all does not mean others share that belief. I, for one, would like to know what the devs think.
You don't have to maintain concentration on a spell. You do need to be able to concentrate on it to cast the spell; at least, that's what I get from the rules surrounding Concentration on cast. If for some reason you were completely incapable of using Concentration (I'm not aware of this ever being a case RAW, but I'm trying to illustrate the point), you wouldn't be able to cast a Concentration spell.
"The designers have clearly said that concentration is a core rule you shouldn't overrule because it unbalances the game."
In the tweets I could find, Rodney Thompson said it's fundamental to the game being functional, and that he wouldn't touch it. He went on to say that many spells require concentration "Not because of power, but because of how they slow down play." Later, they intentionally introduced ways to get around Concentration and other high level abilities that don't require it. I'm not saying Concentration doesn't exist, I'm questioning what the intention is in a specific case that doesn't specify one way or the other like multiple other features.
I believe we will have to agree to disagree on this one, since it's pretty obvious we have wildly different opinions on the subject that aren't likely to be swayed overnight.
@@xInsane333x OK. More clarification is never bad so I'm not opposed to that opinion. Hope you have a good day.
Dungeons of Drakkenheim (by the Dungeon Dudes) features an excellent use of Arcane Lock. Not something I would have ever selected given how circumstantial it can be, but my goodness, it completely shut down the entire encounter.
It’s not any stretch of grand photoshop or anything, but you making the genie “hey bud, lemme get that spell for ya” panel was pretty hilarious 😂
With how many warlocks build for forced movement, Blade Barrier was a choice I thought of. With the limited flying of one of the previous features, you could fly up and down giving yourself 3/4 cover, and being able to move them into the wall, and trapping them with the melee users, who might also being able to push them into the wall themselves.
Interesting vid. Thanks.
A few additional suggestions…
Circumstantial:
Bones of the Earth (for when there is a ceiling and it is low enough)
Dispel Evil and Good (in case of possession)
Various 5th and 6th level spells with high component costs like Circle of Death and summons spells.
And some teleport variants if you don’t have a druid or cleric in your party and want a guaranteed no worries get the party home spell:
Transport via plants
Word of recall (2 castings of limited wish)
Cheers 🍻
I see Bones of the Earth and Word of Recall in another comment too - great minds thinking alike :)
I'd rule limited wish is different in that you're not asking for power to cast a spell, which is what you get for other spells, you're asking for the spell to be cast by another entity for you to get the effect.
So you're not concentrating on it if it has concentration. The upcost of availability balances this nicely. Also, three patron may or may not want to continue concentrating on the spell depending on your relationship with them up to this point, or the task at hand, but that's getting more into thematic roleplay.
My DM let's me do the no concentration on the limited wish because we see it as not so much a spell being cast but the genie granting a wish and so we think the flavoring is cooler, same reason for it not being counterspellable etc.
We base it more on a flavor thing than a spell thing in that wish is a spell you are casting and limited wish isn't a spell at all instead is a genie wish ability. I totally still support this ruling on mechanics tho!
I'm really happy you agree that using limited wish still requires concentration. The amount of discussions and downvotes I've had making the same argument on reddit is crazy. Even when making the same arguments based on the actual wish spell.
Concentration isn't a requirement of any spell. It's part of the duration. There's instances where the book says "the duration is concentration, 1 minute" or the like. And neither wish nor limited wish affects the duration of the spell in any way.
LOL. You talked me out of then into playing a Genie Warloc in 1 video. Kudos to you.
I like the idea of not requiring concentration tbh, even the actual 9th lvl wish would be fine if it doesn't. However, RAW I'd say that both require, that's mostly because concentration is listed on the duration of the spell and not the components, if I happen to run a table tho I'd allow double concentration
Have you run a table before? Because preventing double concentration is on of the absolute biggest balancers in the game, no contest, it exists for a big reason.
@@ARatherDapperTapir my motto is to throw balance to the window lmao. Also wish can do much more than double concentration, it's not something I typically allow, but in the wish circumstances I doubt it'd break the game.
After 40 years, I just discovered how to pronounce "geas." Better later than never. Thank you, Treantmonk.
I have multiple comments telling me I pronounced it wrong. Pretty sure it's correct though, if google didn't steer me wrong.
I would really love errata for the concentration aspect. I think the arguements for and against it are both really strong.
Specifically, for me, unlike the wording in Wish, "duplicate a spell..." Limited Wish states you are requesting "The effects of a spell".
To me, this would make Limited Wish something you could use while raging (assuming no concentration required) since you aren't actually carrying a spell.
The rules on concentration state, "some spells require you to maintain concentration" and the key word "require" here makes me think of is one of the "requirements" that Limited Wish circumvents.
It's interesting that the same book that specified with Favored Foe "as tho concentrating on a spell" (which Jeremy Crawford confirmed was intended to disqualify barbarians from using Favored Foe whilst raging, when the wording of Rage specifies spell) didn't clarify the point on Limited Wish. That specific instance makes a case for both interpretations: an example of a non-spell requiring concentration but also setting the precedence of explicitly calling that out.
So, by my interpretation, when using Limited Wish, you aren't actually casting a spell. As such a limited use ability (1d4 days), I think it's reasonable to allow for "free concentration". I also agree with your metapoint that the most likely use case for this feature is as a "get out of jail free" card, as it's limited use makes me not want to build an attack strategy around it (despite loving the idea of dual casting Spirit Shroud, Spirit Guardians (via Lorehold), Spike Growth, or some other aura/control nightmare to shove creatures around with Repelling Blast.) Hopefully we get official errata at some point, or sage advice at the very least. I suspect it will be nerfed at that point.
One day, I'll get Spirit Guardians on my Raging Barbarian...
That's a tough multiclass, since it requires 14 levels of genie warlock in addition to barb
Concentration is both a requirement for casting a spell and part of the duration of a spell. So while Limited Wish could allow you to avoid the concentration requirement for casting the spell (i.e. casting it doesn't break your concentration on another spell), it does not affect the duration which specifies the spell ends unless you maintain concentration on it. So yes you could absolutely cast a second concentration spell without breaking concentration on the first with Limited Wish, but you could not maintain the second concentration spell for more than that instant of casting it.
I will propose this argument about concentration.
The spell isn't actually being cast, the effects of said spell are being produced as part of the resolution of the Limited Wish ability. There is another class feature that works very similarly: the Artificer's Spell-Storing Item. There are some minor differences in which spells can be used, but both of the features _produce_ the effects of a spell - not cast it. Spell-Storing item specifically states, "If the spell requires concentration, the creature must concentrate," which is telling us when we are producing the effects of a spell without casting it, concentration is not required unless stated in the effect's description.
Also (now that I'm writing this), while I never liked reading Concentration as a requirement of a spell, because WotC's own words in the description above are "requires concentration" we're being told concentration is a requirement. Even under Concentration in the PHB the first line is "Some spells require you to maintain concentration."
If we continue this method of validation and we go to the Spellcasting section of the PHB and search 'require' it appears under the following parts of spellcasting: Casting Time, Components, Concentration, Targets, Attack Rolls.
- Casting Time is specifically constrained by the description of Limited Wish.
- Components (VSM) are ignored both implicitly and explicitly.
- Concentration is ignored implicitly.
- Targets are ignored implicitly; meaning we can ignore that a spell can normally only target self, objects, willing creatures, etc. This section also covers needing a clear path to the target, which would also be implicitly ignored by Limited Wish.
- Attack Rolls are ignored implicitly. This seems a bit strong, but the PHB does state "Some spells require the caster to make an attack roll", so this seems to imply that spells with attack rolls produced by Limited Wish automagically hit. Looking at the list of applicable spells this is honestly probably fine, especially considering the potential cooldown on Limited Wish.
Interestingly Range is excluded as they switch to saying "The target of a spell must be within the spell's range" instead of using the word "require." However I wouldn't consider it much of a stretch to say Range is also a requirement that is ignored by Limited Wish. That makes sense to me even more-so than Target and Attack Rolls. Though I would maaaybe limit it to needing to be on the same plane of existence.
yep, Range, can you just 6th level magic missle that mayor you rubbed up the wrong way months ago from another continent?
@@samuelbroad11 I'm not entirely concerned with fairness or balance when trying to make sense of the rules. I was just saying Range seems like something that would be listed as a requirement more than Target (Heat Metal on stone) or Attack Roll.
But this is what happens when you have spells and features that say they ignore spell requirements, but what is and isn't a spell requirement isn't clearly defined.
Personally if I were coming up with a solution I would break it into two categories: Requirements and Constraints. Requirements being anything needed to cast or maintain a spell; components, target, concentration. Constraints being anything that defines the effect of a spell; range, duration, size, shape, attack type, save type, damage type, etc.
@@PiroMunkie yep, they could write stuff a little clearer, and save a lot of gamers a lot of time, at the table and online!
@@samuelbroad11 Do you really debate these stupid semantics at the table? I would never allow it in my game, the DM makes a quick ruling based on their interpretation of the fictional world and it is settled and we move on. Arguing about word choice in a game book that explicitly is written in natural language and not rigorous symbolic logic is just asinine. It's a role playing game! So imagine the world and how spellcasting works in that world and come to a conclusion about how a feature works. Limited Wish is one of the few features where there are two obvious in-world interpretations:
(1) the warlock wishes for the ability to cast the spell and does so - thus the spell uses the warlock's DC, the warlock chooses the targets and location of the spell, and uses their concentration to maintain it. - This is basically a nerfed Wish spell.
(2) the warlock asks their patron to cast the spell for them - thus the DM roleplaying as the patron determine what spell is cast, when, where and using what DC and for how long it lasts. - This is basically a warlock version of Divine Intervention.
In regards to the concentration query:
I think Limited Wish isn't _just_ thematically the Genie Patron casting the spell. I think it is literal.
"You entreat your patron to grant you a small wish. As an action, you can speak your desire to your Genie's Vessel, requesting the effect..."
Nowhere does it say _you_ can then cast a spell "...of 6th level...". It specifically states that you entreat your Patron and request the effect.
To me this sounds like the Patron is casting it. You get the effect of the spell, but I do not see a reason your PC would be the one concentrating upon it.
I think the Wish spell does require concentration because *you* are specifically casting Wish as another spell. Mystra isn't casting it for you. Mystra isn't manipulating The Weave *you* are.
But, Limited Wish specifically states you are requesting the effect from your Patron. So The Patron is manipulating the Weave; not *you*
The reason it is different than regular spell casting from your warlock is that the Patron grants you Pact Magic which allows _you_ to cast spells. They don't cast spell for you. That would only be for flavor and be a table by table decision.
I think at a lot of casual tables, the casting time is one of the first thing to get forgotten about when spellcasting. That and components.
Im so glad YT has recognized this video as being part of the gaming category, specifically World of Warcraft
Can't wait to use it on True Strike so that I can get advantage on my next turn
The way I look at this feature is that it is the patron casting the spell effectively and will hold any concentration needed. But they are not actually there at least not physically. They are seeing through you their servant or the vessel or just generic "higher power magical vision" around their followers that doesn't need explaining because DM said so. (Side note to me warlocks are kinda like familiars to their patrons in a sense. So you could easily say your patron can easily see through your eyes at any given point. Although you could say you know when they are doing it unless they are actively trying to hide their use of your senses.) And through your link to your patron they would know when you want to release the spell other wise just concentrating on it until it times out.
Otto's Irresistible Dance, a must for rollplay Aladin Genie
Watched and enjoyed the video (as always!) and read the comments and your rebuttals. While I can see your point, I still think I would rule concentration differently than you. Limited Wish is taking an action to speak, not cast a spell. The casting is done by someone else. Therefore the concentration requirement would be on the genie, not you. In my mind it's more comparable to giving orders to a summoned spellcasting creature than to the Wish spell in that way.
I'm really hoping JC speaks up to let us know how the feature was meant to work. Totally open to being wrong!
I had made that mistake about the one action cast and had to correct myself a couple of times on RUclips (yes I am a fool that goes back and changes things or says I am wrong). I agree with you about concentration on wish and limited wish because Wish can have ANY effect or simulate the lower level spell. Limited wish does not have an open ended effect. That is my 2cents.
When in doubt, they say to follow the fundamental rules of the game, unless specifically told to ignore a specific rule by a specific feature. Concentration isn't one of things listed that you can ignore with Limited Wish, unlike say Glyph of Warding where it does say the effected target doesn't concentrate on the spell.
I was going to say Steel Wind Strike only for the coolness factor. Glad it got a shoutout.
They'd have been specific in the wording of Limited Wish if it were intended to allow free concentration, like they have done to the 11th Fey Reinforcements feat from the Fey Wanderer Ranger subclass.
It's just as easy to make the argument "they'd have been specific in the wording if it were intended to require concentration."
Remember, if you use quicken spell, you can use this to cast more than one leveled spells in a turn. One of the few ways outside of action surge.
2:49 Sorry, Ginnie can't make someone fell in love, can't kill and... can't resurrect anyone, so...
the difference between wish and limited wish is that wish involves casting a spell, but nowhere in the mechanics of limited wish does it say you cast the spell, it just says you pick a spell and it takes effect
I feel like they should have clarified that you still need to concentrate on spells cast this way. The combination of not needing to meet the requirements and your patron casting the spell thematically, it can be reasonably understood either way, and I feel like either choice isn't hugely problematic. Casting one spell every 1d4 days without needing to concentrate on it at 14th level is not gamebreaking, but I can see why one could think it is too strong in combination with everything else they get
@@mogalixir Yes, but that is more of a problem with the base class scaling than the subclasses
@@JonathanMandrake IMO it is mostly a problem with the Invocations, Warlocks scale exceptionally well compared to other spellcasting classes as they get new stuff every other level like martial classes do, and they get full spell progression as well. The only problem is that the stuff they get isn't super exciting after level 5 because so many of the invocations are just.. bad.
@@agilemind6241 I didn't mean when they get features, but the scaling of their spell slots. Somewhere between 1 and 3 levels of Warlock tend to have the best ratio between power and level investment, because 2 spell slots per short rest are already there, the level they are at only increases a bit, and at that point you can go into another caster class and use these spell slots as fuel for Smite, Sorcery Points etc.
@@JonathanMandrake The level increases just as fast as a full caster class, and you get them back on a SR so you can effectively double the number of slots you have. Spell power increases exponentially with spell level so getting those higher level slots and higher level spells is generally much more powerful than filling out your low level slots by MCing unless you are playing a martial-warlock.
But nobody is casting a spell, you are using a feature(it would be SU in older editions). That'd be like claiming a Rune Knights runes require concentration to maintain their passive effects, even though nowhere in the class feature is that stated.
I'm not sure how this "Consensus" was reached, maybe a remnant of the early days when fewer people fully understood the RAW, but it seems obviously incorrect to me.
Wish and limited Wish are worded very broadly but clearly. when reading about the elements of spell casting Casting times, Concentration, and Components are all deacribed as requirements of a spell.
Part one of limits your spell selection to single action cast times how ever after that it removes ALL of the spells requirements which includes not only components and concentration it even removes the casting time as made clear by the addition of the line "the spell simply takes effect" present in both spells. in both cases you technically aren't even casting the spell and it's effects would be immune to any spell disrupting effects that don't also specify magical effects.
the denotation of the costly components I believe was differentiate it from casting a spell with a spell focus which let you ignore material components except for those with a monetary cost.
I found a little bonus thing you can do is use limited wish while raging. Imagine the barbarian casting disintegrate while it runs at you in a frothing fury.
… a barbarian with 14 levels of warlock?
That's a good catch, but if I'm 14 levels deep in genie warlock, multiclassing barbarian is probably not on my to-do list
This is actually a really good multiclass.
Warlock invocations give you lots of magical features which can be used while raging because they're not spells, and warlock also gets lots of good setup spells that don't require concentration, like Armour of Agathys.
That one in particular is great, because temp hp on a raging barbarian is essentially doubled.
On top of all that, barbarians get con save proficiency, which is great for all those hugely impactful warlock control spells when you're not raging.
And 6th level eagle aspect from totem warrior + eldritch spear + spell sniper is a very fun combo, and when else are you going to use something like that?
Overall, barbarian/warlock is a really fun and versatile multiclass that plays like every martial class ought to play in 5e - with interesting, meaningful, and flavourful options!
Obviously, going to barb 6 makes limited wish your capstone feature, but honestly it's a pretty amazing feature to finish on so that's ok.
@@saltypork101 I totally agree, that warlock/barbarian is a very interesting multiclass. Genie (fire) might be 1 of the best choices, if you don't want to sell your soul (fiend also gets fire shield) and because warlock gets an invocation for extra attack you could just stay at barb 3.
Another warlock/barbarian I really like is with celestial and the gift of the ever-living one invocation. Heals yourself for 5d6 with automatic max roll from healing and resistance. If you don't need the healing at that moment, you can heal/bring back party members from the frontline with your bonus action, which depending on your build (greatsword/maul) youwould otherwise not do anything with anyway. Or with 9 lvls of celestial you can finally frenzy twice per short rest.😅
@@TreantmonksTemple Absolutely, but starting Barbarian and going to 2/3 gives you early game resilience, and if you go blade you really don't lack much of what a Barbarian can do late game.
I wrote up a full 1-20 Ancestral Guardian/Fiend multiclass I've played to level 5 and it was a ton of fun!
(if you'd have any interest in looking over I'd love to send it!)
Whether the warlock counts as the spell's caster (or the creator of the magical effect if we want to get pedantic?) seems like it's pretty fundamental to the concentration question.
If you're not the caster of the spell, you can't very well concentrate on it yourself unless you're specifically conferred the ability to do so, like the Chronurgist's Arcane Abeyance feature which specifies that they count as the spell's caster except for any save DCs or attack bonuses.
You entreat your patron to grant you a small wish. You’re requesting your patron to work a miracle on your behalf.
There's a section of the DMG where they advise DMs on homebrewing abilities and class features. They strongly caution against any ability which would allow players to concentrate on more than one spell at once. I think they'd have been much more specific in the wording of Limited Wish if it were intended to allow this.
The way I would rule it, concentration is part of the effect of the spell, not a requirement of it. It's the part which defines how long the effect lasts. Otherwise, a "requirement" of Fog Cloud is that there is no wind, for example. It's a condition under which the effect persists, not a requirement to manifest the effect. I hope that makes sense?
Thanks for sharing, Chris! Great discussion. I have a question, please.
What if a Sorlock character has limited wish and quickens the spell. Does that improve the casting time in any way?
"As an ACTION, you can speak your desire to your Geine's vessel, REQUESTING THE EFFECT of one spell that is 6th level or lower and has a casting time of 1 Action... The spell simply takes effect AS PART OF THAT ACTION."
I don't think you have to concentrate because there is no spell being cast, you're merely requesting the effects of a spell. For instance if you were to request a wall of force, no one is casting wall of force, the effect is simply taking place.
Great video making some great discussion!
On cases like these, I tend to look around the game and see if what the player is requesting has parity anywhere else.
In the case of not requiring concentration, I would say that in absence of clear wording, is there anywhere else that a spell can be cast without concentration, and what level feature is it? In this case: artificer and chronurgy wizard can both pass concentration off to another creature with a (sub)class feature. The features are 10th and 11th level, respectively, Limited Wish is 14th. So, I’d say the character could not forego concentration completely, but could pass it to a familiar, for instance, like those other features.
Purely for flavour, as a DM I would rule it needs a verbal component where you vocalise the wish to your patron out loud.
Otherwise completely agree on the concentration feature. I forget where it is, but I think the DMs guide specifically warns against homebrew features which remove the concentration requirements as they would break the game. So I definitely can't see the creators intending this interpretation.
Remove Curse is also a situational spell that’s invaluable when it comes up
For sure!
FYI Greater Restoration works just as well for most cases (unless there's more than one curse on the target).
Taken to the literal extreme, if you think the spell just spontaneously happens and so you're not concentrating on it, then a concentration spell just immediately ends if you use limited wish to have it take effect.
Having so much fun playing a Harrengon Daolock with crusher and telekinesis feat. Playing him as bugs bunny, basically. Haven’t gotten to 14 yet but looking forward to it.
I just watched your other vid on the genie then this popped up 🙏
Hi Chris, thanks for the video. On the point of it being casted as subtle spell/counterspell: wouldn't the fact that you are formally NOT casting a spell invalidate any chance of counterspelling? In a way, it is similar to the new "Spell-like" abilities from the MMotM; on the other hand, once the spell is cast, how is it possilble to interact with its effect?
Surprised that Bones of the Earth wasn't mentioned. Non-concentration wall if you put the pillars next to each other (although not a huge one). Circumstantially if you're fighting under a ceiling can pin some people to the ceiling. Both uses are a little circumstantial but definitely the kind of spell you want to be thinking about with limited wish.
Also, if you have a party with a lot of forced movement, Wall of Thorns is a perfectly reasonable staple spell to just toss out there. It's like wall of fire, but thicker (5ft thick), with an almost never resisted damage type, blocks line of sight, and reduces enemy movement to 1/4. I would probably look to Wall of Thorns before Steel Wind Strike in most parties (33 vs 31.5 initial damage by starting enemies in the wall, even if you lose concentration right away before any forced movement happens).
Word of Recall is also an excellent panic button, but you would need to use limited wish once in advance to set up a sanctuary for Word of Recall.
Those are good suggestions
If the Patron concentrates for you, how long do they maintain that concentration? If that spell must be cast in a single action, wouldn't indicate that the Patron wouldn't concentrate longer than that single action, either? So, hooray, you can cast a spell that needs concentration, but that concentration is immediately dropped after the single action of casting has elapsed.
Drawmij' instant summon to avoid the component cost. You could spam it on multiple items during down time.
Wanted to add some spells. Transport Via Plants, Summon Draconic Spirit, Summon Celestial, Seeming, Mass Cure Wounds, Circle of Power, & Polymorph. These also would be good spells, all 6th level or less, and 1 action to cast.
Spirit guardians could also be fun, for the shenanigans that grasp of hadar and repelling blast along with being upcast to 6th level could let you do
i was of the opinion that you can use a concentration spell without keeping concentration up, but because this feature, in no line of the description, says that you cast the spell. as an action you can ask to your vessel for a wish for the effect of a spell of 6th level or lower. nobody else had this impression? nowhere is written "you cast"
Hell this would work for my timemancer that I’ve wanted put together someday. Have the ability to have slow always up during bbeg boss battle and maintain haste both at the same time.
I'm now imagining a really pissed off Efreeti that you wished to use warding bond.
I would definitly add contigency to the list, and i'm surprised you didn't think of it !
10 minute casting time
Its a spell that needs 10 minutes to cast, thats why its not on the list.
Oh. Sorry
Any chance we can get a similar video for Wish? I would love a list of niche spells it's good to have in mind for it.
Speaking of counterspell I don’t think you are actually casting a spell with this effect. I don’t think anyone’s casting the spell. It takes an action to activate and simply states that the spells effect takes place never once that the spell is being cast. Idk any thoughts?
I believe this was pointed, but I couldn't find, so:
Feature description says "requesting the effect of one spell that is 6th level or lower and has a casting time of 1 action". So there is no spellcasting at all, only effect. And no concentration, because of this.
Versatility, not strength. Brilliant!
About Concentration: One argument is that the patron casts the spell, but can't be bothered to concentrate on it, effectively taking concentration spells out of the realm of working options.
On your list of spells, especially the low-level options, this is also a list of scrolls that are useful to have. Of course scrolls are class-restricted and (Limited) Wish is not.
8:15 At that point the spell also ends when your patron no longer feels liek concetrating on it. And we don't have any control over the duration of a cocnentraiton spell.
don't all concentration spells have a time limit as in they all end after a certain point even if concentration is never broken?
@@johnjacob9741 You can also chose to end a spell at any time
Most of the comments are about Concentration, but to address another matter... RAW, I sadly don't think you can actually upcast anything using this feature.
Upcasting for greater effect doesn't have any general rules, but rather a specific rule stated in each spell that can have additional effects when upcast. That effect text always reads: "When you cast this spell using a spell slot of Nth level..." meaning that you have to cast a spell using a spell slot to get that effect.
When you cast Wish, you can upcast a chosen spell, as you are casting the spell using the spell slot spent on Wish.
Limited Wish, however, does not share any mechanical similarities with Wish. It is not the "Cast a Spell" action, nor does it use any spell slots, so the spell requested by taking the Limited Wish Action would be cast at its lowest level, in the same way any other feature that allows you to cast a spell without a spell slot works (unless specified differently, which Limited Wish doesn't.)
As for whether it requires Concentration or not, that's more nebulous, but I think that RAW, you can't upcast any spells with Limited Wish.
So you actually don’t need to concentrate on the spell, bur for different reasons. It replicates the spell effect, your not casting it, which does 2 things.
1. The spell can’t be counterspell as it is not being cast.
2. Since it’s a spell like effect, but a spell, and since you’re not casting it, it doesn’t require concentration. The only time a spell like effect requires concentration is when they effect says it needs it, look at the option feature of Ranger for there non-spell hunters mark.
Would you say LW gets past effects that require a shared language?
What spells have requirements other than components, and how could we exploit that?
Is a requirement that you choose a target "you can see" a requirement we can ignore with Limited Wish?
Does Transport Via Plants requirement that you must have seen the target plant before count?
Does Wall of Stone's requirement that the panels be contiguous count?
Can you Tree Stride through dead trees with Limited Wish?
Can you use Rary's Telepathic Bond to communicate with an unwilling creature?
Can you Dominate Person a non-humanoid?
I'd not worry about concentration just because this is a 14th level class feature and it seems pretty cool but I'm a pretty casual GM and it just sounds more fun.
You’re looking at the wrong line when it come to concentration. The line that matters is “…requesting the effect of one spell…”
You’re not casting the spell, you’re simply gaining the effect of it.
There are no mechanics in that line. It's just flavor text. It would need something like "you request the effect of a spell that is cast by your patron" or something like that.
@@TreantmonksTemple I still disagree that that sentence has no mechanical value. Casting a spell is different than creating its effect, as with Spell-Storing item.
However, I’m no longer convinced about concentration. We see similar wording on Spell-Storing Item and on Potion of Speed, but one specifically says you need concentration and the other specifically says you don’t.
I’m leaning towards your argument that it does require concentration. I tweeted at JC, but I doubt he’ll answer.
On a totally unrelated note, when is your game with Colby and the Dudes?
@@theresnoracelikegnome May 17th. 6 EST on the DD twitch channel. Both those other items represent a change from standard concentration. In one case, specifying no concentration, in the other case whom is concentrating. With no mechanical guidance, the base assumption should probably be it works as per normal.
That would remove all personal spells as options then. It also doesn't specify that your patron maintains the spell, you could argue that it takes effect for 1 round and then drops under the someone else maintains it logic.
@@Ahglock i don't think there is a concentration spell that last forever. it usually last up to certain point like a minute or hour. So it would last that long regardless if you want it too or not.
I’m currently in the middle of making a video on wish, what timing lol
Does the fact that Limited Wish is a class feature & not spell make any difference? Class features that need concentration specify that you have to concentrate on them like you would a spell.
That's a little different, we don't have mechanics in place for whether a Trickery Clerics Invoke Duplicity feature requires concentration until it's listed in the feature, we already know which spells require concentration.
Question: If concentration were not a requirement of casting when would a spell currently concentrated on cease? If like all other concentration spells it ceases at casting, then it would seem concentration was a requirement after all, wouldn’t it?
The way I’m interpreting it, wish and limited wish don’t require concentration.
For more comparison purposes, maybe we should also look into the artificers spell-storing item feature which has very similar wording and clarifies that it does require concentration.
Great content
Thanks!
Time is a requirement, right? Wouldn’t that mean casting time does not matter?
to Treantmonk. Bottled respite - how far away would you say the warlock could be before entering the bottle? the description gives no distance. so say someone steals bottle and you already used your bottle for the day. Why can't they wait until they long rest and enter bottle from distance and just leave bottle and they are right with their bottle and try to get away from there?
My argument for why limited wish may not require concentration and wish does is pretty simple.
You still cast the wish spell it simply duplicates the effects of another spell. Whereas Limited Wish the Spell merely takes effect. To me this implies you aren't actually the caster of the spell (and therefore you could not end it early either) you merely choose the spell and the targets.
Ah, but I still wonder which of those spells are best for a genie warlock to cast, rather than anyone else? Based on their other features and typical build, that is. Like which of those would you want to look to regularly, rather than situationally.
I am fairly confused on where anyone got the idea that the spell was upcast to 6th level since it doesn't seem to say anything like that (for this feature or the wish spell). It seems like both need an errata to clarify them a bit.
Doesn't it say in the text that you are talking your wish to the genie? Implying it would need a verbal component?
honestly i would debate if the casting time is actually required to be a action. since other components and requirements don't exist. does that also not mean that the time of casting requirement is ignored as well? the spell just happens as part of the action of the wish, it does not say that it limited to only spells that can be cast in the same amount of time. just that it happens as part of the "wish" action.
What about contingency? Or did you mention it and I missed it? Although finding a good contingent spell in the Warlock spell list might be an issue, having certain spells that can be cast with simple triggers can be useful. For example, a dimension door appears when you yell a phrase like "Open Sesame". Simple "things are getting hairy, imma scram button". You can do this end of the day when you have a 4th level spell slot to spare and gives you an extra casting of a super useful spell that is pretty useful in many situations.
And while this seems wasteful as you can use your limited wish to cast dimension door anyways, this maneuver has some advantages. One, after 4 days (max) you will have your limited wish back and have 6 more days on a free dimension door. Two, helps with action economy: You would still have your action and bonus action. So on your turn do take your action and/or bonus action, then yell a phrase and skedaddle; assuming speaking a phrase is a free action. Downside would be on those 4 days (max) you won't have a get out of jail free card for situations where something like water-breathing would have helped better.
10 minute casting time
@@TreantmonksTemple oversight strikes again.
6:00 I think that if the effect is to last more than one round the warlock needs to concenterate on it.
I will say this EVERYTIME genie wishing is mentioned: I will now ruin wishing for you and your friends; only continue for the correct wishes. Standard Genie rules apply.
Wish 1: I, the wisher of this wish, wish for this wish, each past, present and future wish, all timeless wishes, real, imagined, and/or unimaginable wishes, and/or with, within and/or without time, space and/or any and/or any lack of descriptors and/or dimensions not forementioned, as I, the wisher of this wish, would wish for this wish to act in accordance to how I, the wisher of this wish, wish for wishes to occur, act, react, and/or function; which cannot be undone by any entity, non-entity, and/or otherwise undefined sentience or nonsentience, other than myself, the wisher of this wish; even so far as to exclude duplicates of myself, multiversal and/or omniversal variants and/or past, present, future, and/or timeless versions of the same entity that I consider myself, as the wisher of this wish.
Wish 2: I wish for omnipotence and omniscience with self paradox correcting capabilities: such that I _can_ (for example) create an object too heavy for myself to lift until I wish to be able to lift it and also am fully capable of entertaining the concept of knowing pure morality and pure immorality simultaneously.
Wish 3: Free the Genie
P.S. It is my firmly held belief that I am the reason that wishing is not allowed, by whatever deity(s) may or may not exist, have existed or will have existed, in our shared reality, simply due to my own current, former and/or eventual existence.
That or those bastards just found the genie first.
Would this make one able to cadt two leveled spells on one turn? One as a bonus action, the other with this action.
I used this on a mass cure wounds to bring a clericless party back from the brink of a tpk 3 making death saves and 2 in the teens for hp. Would do it again.
Why wouldn't you wish that the spell doesn't require concentration?
It is probably verbal in regards to having to speak the wish, but I don't think it can be counterspelled while I do think you could stop it with silence.
Would go spell by spell. Like ifbyou need a bonus action feature to deal damage but arent concentrating then no way to trigger it. Id be fine concentrating on some but. So copy of hex no, bestow curse yes. Moonbeam needs it but spike growth or sleet storm no.
I think that concentration is a Matter of duration, and not of the requirements.
Fun Fact, Hahaha, how to Stop a concentration spell willingly if you have no concentration on it?
That's a little different, we don't have mechanics in place for whether a Trickery Clerics Invoke Duplicity feature requires concentration until it's listed in the feature, we already know which spells require concentration.
I agree with this interpretation. Concentration is a moniker added to duration. It's not a requirement to cast a spell, just to maintain it's effect.