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As a knife designer, user feedback is everything. Whether it’s a utility-focused piece or a stylized creation, there’s nothing more satisfying than blending functionality and style perfectly. Hearing what professionals have to say is how we keep improving. So, thank you for helping us make better products, every time.
MC, it's so refreshing to hear someone who is able to listen to others' views and appreciate them. It's rare nowadays. One of the reasons I like your content.
Plunge grind matters to me a great deal, and wish that just a little more attention would be paid by some makers, BUT, quick story to express how i know it doesn't matter to many. Years ago I tried giving my brother a $300 excellent knife, now he has carried a knife his whole life. Usually a Gerber or Buck or something of that nature. Now knowing my brother would not be a fan of charity, I didn't mention cost, and even downplayed the situation a little. I just said "hey bro I come across this the other day and thought it was neat, I don't really need it, if you like it you can have it. Inside i was really excited thinking he would be blown away, I watched him mess with it, open and close it non-cooley of course, seemed everything was going as planned. I went to the bathroom, and when I came out he handed me the knife and said, I appreciate it bro, but that knife feels like it's about to fall apart, it's so loose, and that blade is so dainty , id break that the first time I opened a beer with it, I f it's all the same to you I'll just keep my ol Gerber.... and he walked out of the room smiling and admiring his knife... sometimes I forget that I'm the minority, and he's probably still carrying that Gerber today. I'm just glad I never told him how much it cost!! My other brother was a little different, I gave him a $100 knife and HE LOVES IT!, but he won't carry it because......well because it's a $100 knife. Just really makes me think sometimes when I'm having a fit over a shi-tay plunge grind
@bobrutledge54 oh for sure!! It's humbling sometimes to reconnect with those guys, I was that guy for a long time. I watched my brother open a battery case on a toy for his grand daughter using the tip of his knife... I was like Dam it's been a long time since I've done that lol!
Eben if I have many knives and kind of use them most time as you do. I really like to put my own edge on every knife I have. If the plunge is bad it's hard or impossible to do that without making it "better" than it was before. Thank you for sharing things like that especially for the community etc I mean for pushing the community to talk about things like that and share information and experience.
As much as the plunge grind bothers me, stop pin placement in the close position bothers me more. There has been some really cool knifes that if I sharpen one more time, the stop pin is going to be hitting the edge….
THIS! Placement of a stop pin right behind the edge can exacerbate a bad plunge grind, because not only do you have the issues that bad plunge grinds/sharpening choils present, then you have the added issue of not being able to address the bad plunge grind yourself because the stop pin placement prohibits cutting in a choil.
I don’t want you to change your approach beyond mentioning the grind when you think it’s bad. A lot of us reference Jerad Neeves in these comments because we watch multiple content creators. We know Jerad will thoroughly address the plunge grind issue and related sharpening concerns in depth. We (your audience) don’t need you to become Jerad. And we don’t want Jerad to mimic anyone else, either. We like you both for who you are and the different things that you emphasize.
They look fine, as long as you don't intend to sharpen them. If you do use the knife and sharpen it more than once of twice, it sucks. Or if you just want to lay the edge back for better cutting performance ... sucks. If you want to sharpen the knife and then decide to sell it, you're losing hundreds of dollars because the plunge grind sucks.
The other thing to look out for is the closed stop pin position. The most recent example was the bestechman cicada wing. The stop pin on that knife basically landed at the edge, so you couldn't even sharpen it more than once before stop pin would start landing on the edge. Bestechman has fixed the issue (but that is something that shouldve been caught in the prototype phase) and they will replace the knife with one that doesnt have that issue if you encounter it
It doesn’t bother me as much as far as a bad plunge grind. I usually do what you do. I’ll just use a strop and compound to touch up my blade if I think it needs it. I use a KME too. I’ve seen some guys that will sharpen their stuff just to sharpen 😬
Haven't had an issue with plunge grinds yet, but for some knives I certainly prefer it. I will say the problem with larger plunge grinds is some makers end up having another issues with the stop pin and where it lands, sometimes it can hit against that plunge and with enough edges you'll end up having the stop-pin hit the end of the blade. I think NeevesKnives made a video about it, I know personally my Arcane Design Preytheon has that issue, but it would probably take a while until it becomes a real problem.
Regarding the pocket clip judgement: I will absolutely think lower of someone if they are carrying anything less than a Benchmade regardless of what I'm carrying😅 but no one needs to know that
I absolutely consider the plunge grind when buying a knife. For example, I love Enrique Pena's X-Series from Reate, but the plunge grind on a model like the Mula is awful. If you don't cut in a choil & sharpen the knife, you get a huge smile that runs about 1/8 in up the base of the blade that dang near reaches the ricasso. I've cut choils into many knives to avoid this issue. The Mula, though, is the worst kind of knife to have to cut a choil into because of the stop pin placement, which lands right next to the spot where a choil would need to be cut in. So, when early on in my modding experience, I cut a choil into my Mula, I took away enough material that the knife had terrible detent lash when I was done. I was able to make my own oversized stop pin & now it's great (it felt like a miracle I pulled it off because I'm in no way a machinist, but I made it work). But it took a lot of work to fix, & the resale value on it would be completely tanked (though I'd never sell something I'm so proud of). I missed the poll, so I'll now officially say that yes the plunge grind is 100% a major factor that determines whether I'll buy a knife. A knife has to be SUPER amazing in every other respect for me to overlook it, & even then I may buy only if I feel I can cut a choil in without it looking weird. To me, it's a fault that needs to be fixed. Please don't make me correct the work that should've been done in factory.
I enjoy collecting knives for a myriad of reasons, looks, action, proformance etc. So if a knife has a bad plunge grind it keeps me from enjoying it that much more due to the inconveniences it causes when i go to sharpen the knife. It really only becomes a deal breaker when i cant dremel out the notch on the plunge or open it up because of the stop pin placment which is a common issue ive found. At that point I go from being annoyed to upset because now i cant fix the issue at all. For me learning to sharpen and just shapening my knives in general is as much fun as sitting fidgeting with them. I appreciate u being wiling to point out the sharpening choil and the stop pin placmemt in conjunction with where it lands near the plunge grind. Just by giving the viewer a good look at these 2 places gives us an idea if we can fix a bad plunge grind on our on with a dremel and thats all that really matters to me. Thanks for taking the time to start a conversation and seeing it from both sides.
I agree with all you said MC. I collect and use my knives here and there but I don’t sharpen so it isn’t a big deal to me. Good to know but not a factor for me personally. As you said, we all use differently or pick knives for different reasons. I always complain about wanting knives bigger. Not just because I am a bigger guy, but because I do personal protection for a career and I always want my knives to also be weapons just in case and a small knife is not the most helpful. But that’s just me. When I state that I wish knives were bigger, there is always someone who argues. It’s just my opinion and also what “I” need. Keep up the great work.
I personally sharpen every knife as soon as I get it. Even my really expensive ones. It is absolutely something that should be considered by companies. It’s not a deal breaker if I can cut one in,but sometimes a bad stop pin location can not allow me to do so. I recognize that it’s not important to some, but the same could be said about any other issue on a pocket knife.
It bothers me a lot, I’m not even a heavy knife user as well, it’s just frustrating when you see a thick plunge area，you don’t even need to sharpen this knife and you know it will form a smile when you do, it’s just ugly. you can notice this problem in many custom knife , maybe the maker don’t think their customer will sharpen the knife very often，but as i mentioned，if i see a thick plunge area, i will consider the “smile”problem, i will hesitate whether or not buy this knife. Nice video, you can see any details of edc knives in this channel, love it!
To be fair, Joe Blow carrying a 20 dollar Smith & Wesson with a bad plunge grind isnt the argument. Thats fine. But a $300+ pocket knife from a company that ONLY makes knives should be able to do a proper sharpening choil and plunge grind...period. Look at American Blade Works. Not even nearly the best American made pocket knife but he gets it right. And if you seperate the edge from the plunge grind with a sharpening choil, then the plunge grind doesnt matter.
@metal_complex right and I understand a lot of guys are like you and don't use a knife enough to need sharpened or it's sharp enough for their uses or they have a bunch of knives to rotate so they never get very dull, but as a guy who gets enjoyment from using his knives and also then enjoys sharpening them, it's definitely frustrating trying to sharpen some with these issues.
There's a saying in the trades regarding keeping the work that you do "serviceable." Leave a little extra material for future use or expansion. I feel like that applies here.
Another question you could do a poll on is whether it bothers people when the tip of the blade is close to the edge of the handle scales in the closed position. It really bothers me for two reasons: 1: I’ve had a Civivi just barely start to open in my pocket, and when I went to pull it out the blade sliced my pocket open. Luckily it missed my leg, but if the tip was deeper in the handle it would have just closed the knife again as the spine of the blade pushed on the pocket rather than the tip catching. 2: If you use your knives until the blade has been sharpened back so far that it’s almost unusable like me, the tip will eventually be poking out of the handle and will snag on/cut your fingers or pockets while the knife is still closed. Because of this I have ground the tips of a couple knives down toward the end of their useful lives so that I could keep sharpening them. Knives like my Contego don’t have this problem and you will run out of good blade to sharpen well before it becomes an issue. My Contego is so thick behind the edge now that it’s getting hard to cut cardboard with. I’ve cut two new sharpening choils into it with a Dremel at this point, and I’m finally replacing it with a budget Demko Shark Cub. Hoping I like the Shark Lock, and looking forward to having a thin blade again haha.
It is annoying but by no means a deal breaker for me. Also your description of the average pocket knife is absolutely spot on in my experience lol. I have gotten a lot of people around me a better knife and offered to keep them sharp. It's incredible how many people will carry a dull knife. Chris Reeves knives did come out with a new pocket clip this year. Lastly, these knife guy videos are absolutely some of my favorite videos on RUclips!
Most knives come from the factory with a relatively coarse band finish on the cutting edge. This is ok at least as long as the edge is really sharp and not burnt, but the difference between a band-ground edge and one that has been ground with stones is clearly noticeable and recognizable by the cutting performance. For example when cutting paper, you can feel and hear how the blade glides. I sharpen practically every new knife I get and often also re-profile the edges. The plunge grind definitely plays a role here, because depending on the knife, it makes sharpening easier or more difficult.
I selected that it bothers me but truth be told I'm in the same boat as you. I don't really use my knives enough to have to sharpen and when I did I would have someone else do it. But I stopped collecting for a period of time because when I did get them sharpened they would come back with a "smile" and I didn't like it. These were cheapo knives and that "smile" is part of the reason I wouldn't spend more than $50 on a knife for a very long time because I thought that it would be "ruined" as soon as it needed to be sharpened. Now I've come back and slowly crept up in the amount that I'm willing to spend and simultaneously decided that I would be doing my own sharpening. So as a beginner I would like it to be as easy as possible for me to not to hit that plunge grind when I start sharpening my own for the first time. Sorry for the long ramble...lol.
After learning how to sharpen, bad plunge grind/no sharpening choil on a knife is definitely annoying and can affect my purchase decision, but I still can't stop loving my Spydercos lol.
Before watching the video I asked, “how in the world is MC gonna get 30 minutes outta plunge grinds?” I’m once again reminded to never underestimate your ability to ramble. I mean no offense, I enjoy your TKG rambles because I tend to ramble on myself (much like Led Zeppelin).
Here’s where I land, I don’t care about it because it impacts me on a day to day basis. I have enough knives that I rarely have to do more than strop them. The only reason I care about plunge grinds is because of the pursuit of perfection. I appreciate a knife maker who listens to feedback and understands what knife enthusiasts like. The best knives have these features, which includes favorable plunge grinds.
Yep people like MC care about things like pivot lash despite it not really being a practical issue because it shows the quality of manufacturing and I feel like even if you are someone who doesn’t sharpen their knives you should care about a crappy plunge for the same reason. It takes only a small amount of knowledge for manufacturers to essentially make a perfect plunge grind every time, so when they don’t put any effort into it at all, it makes it feel like they don’t really care about their product
I love spyderco. The plunge grind does not disturb me. Being a VA nurse and understanding that we ask patients not to have any weapons, I look for that clip everyday. If it's there, I acknowledge it and ask the patient to keep it sheathed. BUT, just like MC said, I think your knife clip might not be good. Crazy. Another great topic and knowledge shared. I appreciate it.
The plunge is something I always check before buying. Some companies do a great plunge and some do not. I sharpen all my knives and it makes a difference in my opinion. I prefer to have a sharpening choil before the plunge thickens up so much
Yea a s sharpener pinged grind matters alot!! I find MANY knives have a "canter " like a small wobble in the steel. Like the blade is :pushed inwards near the heel alot. When resharpening the heel of the blade seems like I need a steeper angle to get it to apex and form a Burr and bevel
One of the most amazing things I appreciate about Metal Complex is his self awareness when he's being a dick, or a snob, or an asshole, or rather when he has such thoughts. I doubt they ever make their way into his actions. That self awareness means he is probably incapable of ever being a bad guy and he is well aware of the boundary of where his life ends and another person's begins. He sounds like he'd be a great guy to hang out and have a chat with.
Before I ever started collecting knives, I sharpened them. As a result, plunge grinds are something that greatly impacts my opinion on any knife. I find a properly done plunge grind far more aesthetically pleasing, too. It's definitely a deal-breaker kind of thing for me.
Neeves is someone I watch who always comments on the plunge and educated me on it... still isnt a huge issue to me as my knife use is identical to yours. Tactical amazon package openers and apple slicers.
I never really noticed but since it's been brought up now it bothers me a little. However, aesthetically, no plunge grind can give a knife a different look for better or worse. Definitely something to consider.
It should be considered, it will make the product better overall. I don't sharpen a lot but some people do. Just do it right and they will sell more knives, win win.
I flipping love Shiro's plunge, second only to the plunge of a woman's bust. The only ones I've noticed before. Startled to learn some consider Shiro's horrific. Looks count, Shiro's is a winner!
Even cutting fruits repeatedly on a plastic or bamboo cutting board is very rough on your typical knife steel edge. Working in a bar cutting fruit every day had me going through a cycle of edges i had to sharpen roughly once a month
Another thing about riding up the smile is that it changes the angle you're applying on your stone so if you don't catch it in time while sharpening you can noticeably change your bevel
Bad plunge grinds are like bad engineering with cars when it comes to repair or maintaining. So if you have a car and a light in front is dead. There is an option to losen one screw and change the light or you have to loosen 274727 or bring it to a workshop to change that thing. At least for me it's a good example. It won't effect you untill it's death. So to say.
It doesn't ruin knife! But it does make knife significantly harder to sharpen and keep looking nice years later, after 10/20 times under stone! And on most designs it is easy "problem" to fix! That being said if it doesn't bother you....go for it!
It definitely matters to me, it’s incredibly annoying because it just takes some basic knowledge to make every plunge grind perfect. It doesn’t need to be an issue, so it makes it feel like companies just don’t care about their customers - at least the ones who use and sharpen their knives regularly
A bad plunge grind can make or break a knife for me. If it's going to be a crappy user then I don't really care as much about the aesthetics, but if I'm forking a lot of money for a premium knife, i don't want it looking like crap after i lay back the edge angle- which i do to every knife I own pretty much. I have even gotten some knives brand new that already have a smile because the plunge grind was so terrible. My Kizer Huntsman was awful right out of the box! I really wish that knife makers could fix this issue
I'm a cook & on my kitchen knives that little sloppy area can start to funk up certain cuts & can result in real headaches cutting chives or scallions for example...On pocket knives it bothers me much less
I really do agree about the crappy civivi pocket clip tho. I've got 2 out of 3 of my civivi knife pocket clips bent cause it got caught on something on the bus.
It wasn’t an issue until I started sharpening my knives and then it became a very important aspect of a knife. To the point that I don’t understand why designers just don’t make a good plunge grind. Just don’t make it an issue for users.
9 дней назад+1
I would like to see different grinds compared, different blade shapes, different locks, etc.
I really like my Cold Steel Ultimate Hunter but the plunge is awful and I have a MASSIVE smile on it. Not sure if it hinders my sharpening at this point, but it definitely looks hideous. However, IMO a badly-done sharpening choil is almost worse than none at all because it indicates they thought about the sharpening experience but then still didn't deliver.
I always look at my buddies plunge grind especially if they want me to sharpen it I’ll tell the that the plunge grind is crap either I’m going to hit the metal or not fully 100% of the blade will be sharp since the tip and the part closes to the plunge grind are the 2 difficult places to sharpen
I’ve never encountered the problem because I use a knife for a year and then retire it for a new one from my collection. But I always figured that if you sharpen a blade enough, eventually (1/4”?) it would always look bad and you should buy a new blade as your past the temper any ways. But that’s just my opinion.
On any knife that I worry about this when I sharpen it I do not sharpen the very bottom area of the blade I leave that on factory edge cause I never go down that far on a cut anyway so my thoughts just don't sharpen all the way down on these knives not that big a issue unless you are a OCD freak
Plunge grind is not a deal breaker but I don’t like it. What is a deal breaker for me is when the stop pin is too close to the sharpening choil. I don’t want my edge hitting that stop pin when closed nor do I want it to wiggle when closed.
Plunge grinds are a tricky thing. If it's too deep and you'll lose the structural integrity of a blade. Not deep enough, and it makes it hard to sharpen. I like a good Plunge on my slicers, but for my hard use work knife, not so much
Yes a crappy plunge grind bothers me. However one of the last knives i bought was an mbk mini old guard bolster lock that has a pretty bad one, basically had a small smile from factory. It didnt stop me from buying it. Ive sharpened it and avoided the end. Now i can see where the factory edge was and where mine goes to. Id rather have that though than the smile, 2mm of unusable edge than 7mm of crazy ugliness and possible messed up stones. Its also a knife that i cant add in a larger choil because the stop pin is right there like millimeters away. I love the little ass knife but damn i wish so badly it was done better. Just pull the plunge back or make the choil bigger it cant be that hard.
@ thanks brother I’m in Maryland the knife got to ny and cleared customs fast but has been setting in transit for like a week now lmao 😂 🤦♂️ love the channel and the way u communicate with ur audience it’s really awesome thanks a bunch man
Can I get some Strop Recommendations for a strop paddle style or regular and Some good Compound I was told by two different channels I shouldn't use the Green compound that I have used forever becaue the microns aren't enough to sharpen correctly. Don't know if it's true I need some help.
I got a used shiro f95nl for what i thought was a good deal. $600. I got the knife and he over sharpened into the plunge grind. He didn't create a smile. He created a deep shoulder. It's a nice knife but that bothers me everytime i carry it. I've considered putting in a choil just to make it look nicer but meh.
If I really like a knife it doesn’t matter. But it’s something I do look for. Only because I sharpen freehand on stones. If I owned a KME I’d probs care a lot less about it.
First? Im getting into bladesmithing and want to ultimately start a pocket knife company- any tips youd give to a new company? Regarding marketing, what youd like in a knife, anything really
@@lerch400block absolutely, I will have at least two years of making knives and taking classes with ABS before I attempt to sell folders.. when I do I just want to have an idea of what this community wants that they arent able to find now or how they learn about new makers-- or how new makers make relationships with content creators or larger companies to sell their designs. Id also be interested in hearing if these people value other handforged items such as damascus/timascus pens or rings etc. Do you guys all sharpen your own knives or do people actually use sharpening services, etc. Initially my knives are going to be purely to learn the craft not for sale, but I can do day forging classes and make rings pens etc. Maybe even high quality parts for modding peoples existing knives like clips or scales.
I think you should make the sharping one of you criteria in knife reviews or a disclaimer . Because there are a lot of people out here that sharpen there own knives and make it part of the knife collecting experience and spend a great deal of their knife buying budget on knife sharping systems and stones because ... the enjoyment and satisfaction in their technical aptitude and ability. your justification of your lack of what was said ... well frankly seems that your vast number of knives and failure to acknowledge this segment of knife enthusiast,, well seem a little snobby ...But I love man 😁
Here’s a question for everybody, from somebody who’s never thought about it. For the type of work the requires you to skin various gauges of wire from 1/0 to 765 AAC? What grind style would be best used??
I would tell you to get a replaceable blade because wire destroys your edge, you can get regular knives with replaceable blades like olitans knives. With different blade shapes. That way you have both a regular pocket knife and a utility blade, olitans uses good steels you can resharpen as well. Blade shape that will work best is technically a hawk bill for wire but a Wharncliffe/ Sheepsfoot with a sharp tip like a utility blade will also work well
@@shanesandoval9954 I misread your comment. You’re just talking about cutting the sheathing off? Either way sounds like a knife is the wrong tool for that job lol.
The only thing about them am that bugs me is spyderco and how the blade starts against the edge of the plunge grind and you can’t sharper the entire blade. I still carry the tenacious as my work knife 6 days a week and sharpen it about once a month.
The ability to get a knife as sharp and capable of cutting trumps all other aspects of knife design. Much like for a fixed blade the sheath is often more important the the actual knife.
if you dont care about the plunge grind how come the hrc bothers you so much on knives? if you just collect them for light use im surprised the hrc is as important to you considering the edge will probably last a long time with your kind of usage
I kinda covered what you're saying somewhere in the middle of this video. I pointed out that many of the issues I have with some folders are things that others would consider a non issue, and some things I don't cover at all because I have never even considered it based on my own experience. The plunge grind for example A bad plunge has never been an element that directly affected me, but soft/poorly heat treated steel definitely has, even though it was minimal. I am a product of my experiences. It's very true that HRC won't have a major impact on someone like me VS someone who uses knives more often, but it is a potential issue that I was very much aware of through community discussions. The plunge grind issue, not so much. Either way, anything that can potentially affect one of my viewers' experience with the knife I'm reviewing is something I want to point out. So ive decided to add the plunge grind to the list of things to consider during a review. That's kind of the whole point here. I polled it and it turns out there are lots of people concerned with it. Makes sense to add it in
If a grind is decent enough that it doesnt affect performance or look like it was made in a shed by a 10 year old, im not really going to fuzz too much over it not being perfect. What really bothers me though, is receiving warped or bent blades, and it happens more often than people seem to think. Most people these days seem to either send their knives in for sharpening or use some kind of fixed angle system that has very small contact surface, but if you go to sharpen a warped knife on a bench stone where you can get the entire blade to contact at the same time its going to look absolutely mangled unless you remove so much steel its straightened out. I think this flies much more under the radar and its a shame because not only does it look awful, but it does affect cutting performance and feel too.
I think I said this word for word not even two minutes into the video, but my exact words were "most people don't sharpen their knives often enough for it to be an issue". Did you watch? Or did you just go right to the comments?
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I feel like Jerad from Neeves Knives is gonna just pop in anytime now
Oh he has
@@NeevesKnives big fan of both 👍
I hope he responds to this topic.
@NeevesKnives hilarious.....and also....BANG!
@NeevesKnives oh dang. Lol. Glad you're here for this topic. The sharpening choil and plunge grind man himself!
As a knife designer, user feedback is everything. Whether it’s a utility-focused piece or a stylized creation, there’s nothing more satisfying than blending functionality and style perfectly. Hearing what professionals have to say is how we keep improving. So, thank you for helping us make better products, every time.
I’m loving these knife talks following a poll, super unique idea to kind of taper our assumptions and bring us together
The part about seeing pocket clips when walking around (I.e. in a gas station] is way to relatable 😂 13:29
MC, it's so refreshing to hear someone who is able to listen to others' views and appreciate them. It's rare nowadays. One of the reasons I like your content.
Hear hear!
Plunge grind matters to me a great deal, and wish that just a little more attention would be paid by some makers, BUT, quick story to express how i know it doesn't matter to many. Years ago I tried giving my brother a $300 excellent knife, now he has carried a knife his whole life. Usually a Gerber or Buck or something of that nature. Now knowing my brother would not be a fan of charity, I didn't mention cost, and even downplayed the situation a little. I just said "hey bro I come across this the other day and thought it was neat, I don't really need it, if you like it you can have it. Inside i was really excited thinking he would be blown away, I watched him mess with it, open and close it non-cooley of course, seemed everything was going as planned. I went to the bathroom, and when I came out he handed me the knife and said, I appreciate it bro, but that knife feels like it's about to fall apart, it's so loose, and that blade is so dainty , id break that the first time I opened a beer with it, I f it's all the same to you I'll just keep my ol Gerber.... and he walked out of the room smiling and admiring his knife... sometimes I forget that I'm the minority, and he's probably still carrying that Gerber today. I'm just glad I never told him how much it cost!! My other brother was a little different, I gave him a $100 knife and HE LOVES IT!, but he won't carry it because......well because it's a $100 knife. Just really makes me think sometimes when I'm having a fit over a shi-tay plunge grind
Oh, is he a Gerber Paraframe kinda guy? I know the type.
There's probably more of them than us!
@bobrutledge54 oh for sure!! It's humbling sometimes to reconnect with those guys, I was that guy for a long time. I watched my brother open a battery case on a toy for his grand daughter using the tip of his knife... I was like Dam it's been a long time since I've done that lol!
Us plunge grind people just appreciate it when you highlight it in the video so that we can make our assessment lol
Big time.
Man I really dig your take and input on pocket knives it's such a fun hobby and Your Chanel and " TKG" are a big part of it for me.
Eben if I have many knives and kind of use them most time as you do. I really like to put my own edge on every knife I have. If the plunge is bad it's hard or impossible to do that without making it "better" than it was before. Thank you for sharing things like that especially for the community etc I mean for pushing the community to talk about things like that and share information and experience.
I appreciate getting to hear your opinions on the topics you've been choosing for TKG episodes...keep em coming! 🙏🏾💪🏾
As much as the plunge grind bothers me, stop pin placement in the close position bothers me more. There has been some really cool knifes that if I sharpen one more time, the stop pin is going to be hitting the edge….
THIS! Placement of a stop pin right behind the edge can exacerbate a bad plunge grind, because not only do you have the issues that bad plunge grinds/sharpening choils present, then you have the added issue of not being able to address the bad plunge grind yourself because the stop pin placement prohibits cutting in a choil.
You are a very RATIONAL person…and objective…that’s why you’re the king 👑
I don’t want you to change your approach beyond mentioning the grind when you think it’s bad. A lot of us reference Jerad Neeves in these comments because we watch multiple content creators. We know Jerad will thoroughly address the plunge grind issue and related sharpening concerns in depth. We (your audience) don’t need you to become Jerad. And we don’t want Jerad to mimic anyone else, either. We like you both for who you are and the different things that you emphasize.
💯
Metal Complex is the most self-aware knife snob ever 😂 absolutely refreshing
I love the plunge grind on Shirogorovs. It’s a flat grind that looks really good. It’s details like that you pay for with a Shiro.
They look fine, as long as you don't intend to sharpen them. If you do use the knife and sharpen it more than once of twice, it sucks. Or if you just want to lay the edge back for better cutting performance ... sucks. If you want to sharpen the knife and then decide to sell it, you're losing hundreds of dollars because the plunge grind sucks.
The other thing to look out for is the closed stop pin position. The most recent example was the bestechman cicada wing. The stop pin on that knife basically landed at the edge, so you couldn't even sharpen it more than once before stop pin would start landing on the edge. Bestechman has fixed the issue (but that is something that shouldve been caught in the prototype phase) and they will replace the knife with one that doesnt have that issue if you encounter it
It doesn’t bother me as much as far as a bad plunge grind. I usually do what you do. I’ll just use a strop and compound to touch up my blade if I think it needs it. I use a KME too.
I’ve seen some guys that will sharpen their stuff just to sharpen 😬
22:53 "Makes my thumb ouchie"
I love this man and his stupid jokes.
Haven't had an issue with plunge grinds yet, but for some knives I certainly prefer it. I will say the problem with larger plunge grinds is some makers end up having another issues with the stop pin and where it lands, sometimes it can hit against that plunge and with enough edges you'll end up having the stop-pin hit the end of the blade. I think NeevesKnives made a video about it, I know personally my Arcane Design Preytheon has that issue, but it would probably take a while until it becomes a real problem.
Yes it matters, thank you for acknowledging mc
I love a good choil. The ability to choke up is appreciated. But. I really like that the blade is useful, so that choil must be tight and done right.
It's always nice to have a balance of form and function.
Thanks .... Definitely matters.
Regarding the pocket clip judgement: I will absolutely think lower of someone if they are carrying anything less than a Benchmade regardless of what I'm carrying😅 but no one needs to know that
I absolutely consider the plunge grind when buying a knife. For example, I love Enrique Pena's X-Series from Reate, but the plunge grind on a model like the Mula is awful. If you don't cut in a choil & sharpen the knife, you get a huge smile that runs about 1/8 in up the base of the blade that dang near reaches the ricasso.
I've cut choils into many knives to avoid this issue. The Mula, though, is the worst kind of knife to have to cut a choil into because of the stop pin placement, which lands right next to the spot where a choil would need to be cut in. So, when early on in my modding experience, I cut a choil into my Mula, I took away enough material that the knife had terrible detent lash when I was done. I was able to make my own oversized stop pin & now it's great (it felt like a miracle I pulled it off because I'm in no way a machinist, but I made it work). But it took a lot of work to fix, & the resale value on it would be completely tanked (though I'd never sell something I'm so proud of).
I missed the poll, so I'll now officially say that yes the plunge grind is 100% a major factor that determines whether I'll buy a knife. A knife has to be SUPER amazing in every other respect for me to overlook it, & even then I may buy only if I feel I can cut a choil in without it looking weird. To me, it's a fault that needs to be fixed. Please don't make me correct the work that should've been done in factory.
I enjoy collecting knives for a myriad of reasons, looks, action, proformance etc. So if a knife has a bad plunge grind it keeps me from enjoying it that much more due to the inconveniences it causes when i go to sharpen the knife. It really only becomes a deal breaker when i cant dremel out the notch on the plunge or open it up because of the stop pin placment which is a common issue ive found. At that point I go from being annoyed to upset because now i cant fix the issue at all. For me learning to sharpen and just shapening my knives in general is as much fun as sitting fidgeting with them. I appreciate u being wiling to point out the sharpening choil and the stop pin placmemt in conjunction with where it lands near the plunge grind. Just by giving the viewer a good look at these 2 places gives us an idea if we can fix a bad plunge grind on our on with a dremel and thats all that really matters to me. Thanks for taking the time to start a conversation and seeing it from both sides.
THANK YOU!! This needed to be said!!
So many good designs ruined because the designer doesn’t know anything about sharpening or plunge grinds.
Great video. Great discussion topic.
I agree with all you said MC. I collect and use my knives here and there but I don’t sharpen so it isn’t a big deal to me. Good to know but not a factor for me personally. As you said, we all use differently or pick knives for different reasons. I always complain about wanting knives bigger. Not just because I am a bigger guy, but because I do personal protection for a career and I always want my knives to also be weapons just in case and a small knife is not the most helpful. But that’s just me. When I state that I wish knives were bigger, there is always someone who argues. It’s just my opinion and also what “I” need. Keep up the great work.
I personally sharpen every knife as soon as I get it. Even my really expensive ones. It is absolutely something that should be considered by companies. It’s not a deal breaker if I can cut one in,but sometimes a bad stop pin location can not allow me to do so. I recognize that it’s not important to some, but the same could be said about any other issue on a pocket knife.
It bothers me a lot, I’m not even a heavy knife user as well, it’s just frustrating when you see a thick plunge area，you don’t even need to sharpen this knife and you know it will form a smile when you do, it’s just ugly. you can notice this problem in many custom knife , maybe the maker don’t think their customer will sharpen the knife very often，but as i mentioned，if i see a thick plunge area, i will consider the “smile”problem, i will hesitate whether or not buy this knife. Nice video, you can see any details of edc knives in this channel, love it!
To be fair, Joe Blow carrying a 20 dollar Smith & Wesson with a bad plunge grind isnt the argument. Thats fine. But a $300+ pocket knife from a company that ONLY makes knives should be able to do a proper sharpening choil and plunge grind...period. Look at American Blade Works. Not even nearly the best American made pocket knife but he gets it right. And if you seperate the edge from the plunge grind with a sharpening choil, then the plunge grind doesnt matter.
Yeah I think there's plenty of logic in that for people who plan on using and sharpening their knives a lot. Sure 👍
@metal_complex right and I understand a lot of guys are like you and don't use a knife enough to need sharpened or it's sharp enough for their uses or they have a bunch of knives to rotate so they never get very dull, but as a guy who gets enjoyment from using his knives and also then enjoys sharpening them, it's definitely frustrating trying to sharpen some with these issues.
There's a saying in the trades regarding keeping the work that you do "serviceable." Leave a little extra material for future use or expansion. I feel like that applies here.
Another question you could do a poll on is whether it bothers people when the tip of the blade is close to the edge of the handle scales in the closed position. It really bothers me for two reasons:
1: I’ve had a Civivi just barely start to open in my pocket, and when I went to pull it out the blade sliced my pocket open. Luckily it missed my leg, but if the tip was deeper in the handle it would have just closed the knife again as the spine of the blade pushed on the pocket rather than the tip catching.
2: If you use your knives until the blade has been sharpened back so far that it’s almost unusable like me, the tip will eventually be poking out of the handle and will snag on/cut your fingers or pockets while the knife is still closed. Because of this I have ground the tips of a couple knives down toward the end of their useful lives so that I could keep sharpening them. Knives like my Contego don’t have this problem and you will run out of good blade to sharpen well before it becomes an issue.
My Contego is so thick behind the edge now that it’s getting hard to cut cardboard with. I’ve cut two new sharpening choils into it with a Dremel at this point, and I’m finally replacing it with a budget Demko Shark Cub. Hoping I like the Shark Lock, and looking forward to having a thin blade again haha.
It is annoying but by no means a deal breaker for me.
Also your description of the average pocket knife is absolutely spot on in my experience lol. I have gotten a lot of people around me a better knife and offered to keep them sharp. It's incredible how many people will carry a dull knife.
Chris Reeves knives did come out with a new pocket clip this year.
Lastly, these knife guy videos are absolutely some of my favorite videos on RUclips!
Love your addition to mirror polish. I am as well. I'm not a knife pro but ie eer little white I make one. To me it's the ultimate design look. Imho
Most knives come from the factory with a relatively coarse band finish on the cutting edge. This is ok at least as long as the edge is really sharp and not burnt, but the difference between a band-ground edge and one that has been ground with stones is clearly noticeable and recognizable by the cutting performance. For example when cutting paper, you can feel and hear how the blade glides. I sharpen practically every new knife I get and often also re-profile the edges. The plunge grind definitely plays a role here, because depending on the knife, it makes sharpening easier or more difficult.
I selected that it bothers me but truth be told I'm in the same boat as you. I don't really use my knives enough to have to sharpen and when I did I would have someone else do it. But I stopped collecting for a period of time because when I did get them sharpened they would come back with a "smile" and I didn't like it.
These were cheapo knives and that "smile" is part of the reason I wouldn't spend more than $50 on a knife for a very long time because I thought that it would be "ruined" as soon as it needed to be sharpened.
Now I've come back and slowly crept up in the amount that I'm willing to spend and simultaneously decided that I would be doing my own sharpening. So as a beginner I would like it to be as easy as possible for me to not to hit that plunge grind when I start sharpening my own for the first time. Sorry for the long ramble...lol.
Great video man 👍
After learning how to sharpen, bad plunge grind/no sharpening choil on a knife is definitely annoying and can affect my purchase decision, but I still can't stop loving my Spydercos lol.
Before watching the video I asked, “how in the world is MC gonna get 30 minutes outta plunge grinds?” I’m once again reminded to never underestimate your ability to ramble. I mean no offense, I enjoy your TKG rambles because I tend to ramble on myself (much like Led Zeppelin).
Here’s where I land, I don’t care about it because it impacts me on a day to day basis. I have enough knives that I rarely have to do more than strop them. The only reason I care about plunge grinds is because of the pursuit of perfection. I appreciate a knife maker who listens to feedback and understands what knife enthusiasts like. The best knives have these features, which includes favorable plunge grinds.
Yep people like MC care about things like pivot lash despite it not really being a practical issue because it shows the quality of manufacturing and I feel like even if you are someone who doesn’t sharpen their knives you should care about a crappy plunge for the same reason. It takes only a small amount of knowledge for manufacturers to essentially make a perfect plunge grind every time, so when they don’t put any effort into it at all, it makes it feel like they don’t really care about their product
I love spyderco. The plunge grind does not disturb me. Being a VA nurse and understanding that we ask patients not to have any weapons, I look for that clip everyday. If it's there, I acknowledge it and ask the patient to keep it sheathed. BUT, just like MC said, I think your knife clip might not be good. Crazy. Another great topic and knowledge shared. I appreciate it.
The plunge is something I always check before buying. Some companies do a great plunge and some do not. I sharpen all my knives and it makes a difference in my opinion. I prefer to have a sharpening choil before the plunge thickens up so much
Yea a s sharpener pinged grind matters alot!!
I find MANY knives have a "canter " like a small wobble in the steel. Like the blade is :pushed inwards near the heel alot.
When resharpening the heel of the blade seems like I need a steeper angle to get it to apex and form a Burr and bevel
One of the most amazing things I appreciate about Metal Complex is his self awareness when he's being a dick, or a snob, or an asshole, or rather when he has such thoughts. I doubt they ever make their way into his actions. That self awareness means he is probably incapable of ever being a bad guy and he is well aware of the boundary of where his life ends and another person's begins. He sounds like he'd be a great guy to hang out and have a chat with.
Before I ever started collecting knives, I sharpened them. As a result, plunge grinds are something that greatly impacts my opinion on any knife. I find a properly done plunge grind far more aesthetically pleasing, too. It's definitely a deal-breaker kind of thing for me.
Neeves is someone I watch who always comments on the plunge and educated me on it... still isnt a huge issue to me as my knife use is identical to yours. Tactical amazon package openers and apple slicers.
I never really noticed but since it's been brought up now it bothers me a little. However, aesthetically, no plunge grind can give a knife a different look for better or worse. Definitely something to consider.
That "pocket clip" take is 💯 real.
I like room to sharpen away from the grind but I also hate it when the Choil catches into what ever I’m cutting but that’s normal user era
the umnumzun sorry spelling, actually has a pretty decent plunge grind, its not bad. very good video, thanks.
It should be considered, it will make the product better overall. I don't sharpen a lot but some people do. Just do it right and they will sell more knives, win win.
I flipping love Shiro's plunge, second only to the plunge of a woman's bust. The only ones I've noticed before. Startled to learn some consider Shiro's horrific. Looks count, Shiro's is a winner!
Even cutting fruits repeatedly on a plastic or bamboo cutting board is very rough on your typical knife steel edge. Working in a bar cutting fruit every day had me going through a cycle of edges i had to sharpen roughly once a month
Another thing about riding up the smile is that it changes the angle you're applying on your stone so if you don't catch it in time while sharpening you can noticeably change your bevel
Bad plunge grinds are like bad engineering with cars when it comes to repair or maintaining.
So if you have a car and a light in front is dead. There is an option to losen one screw and change the light or you have to loosen 274727 or bring it to a workshop to change that thing.
At least for me it's a good example. It won't effect you untill it's death. So to say.
I've often cut my own slot with a Dremel to create a better plunge grind
It doesn't ruin knife! But it does make knife significantly harder to sharpen and keep looking nice years later, after 10/20 times under stone! And on most designs it is easy "problem" to fix! That being said if it doesn't bother you....go for it!
It definitely matters to me, it’s incredibly annoying because it just takes some basic knowledge to make every plunge grind perfect. It doesn’t need to be an issue, so it makes it feel like companies just don’t care about their customers - at least the ones who use and sharpen their knives regularly
Doesnt affect me at all, a light user. But like you, totally understand why it is important
A bad plunge grind can make or break a knife for me. If it's going to be a crappy user then I don't really care as much about the aesthetics, but if I'm forking a lot of money for a premium knife, i don't want it looking like crap after i lay back the edge angle- which i do to every knife I own pretty much. I have even gotten some knives brand new that already have a smile because the plunge grind was so terrible. My Kizer Huntsman was awful right out of the box! I really wish that knife makers could fix this issue
The best plunge grind i have is probably on GiantMouse ACE Nazca ( that is excluding the ones with huge finger choil in the blade )
Yaaaay! U finally brought out ur scale swapped Vision. 😜
Edit: never mind I'm blind didn't even see the three holes right in front of my face 🤦
It’s been years since I did the plunge and grind.
I'm a cook & on my kitchen knives that little sloppy area can start to funk up certain cuts & can result in real headaches cutting chives or scallions for example...On pocket knives it bothers me much less
I really do agree about the crappy civivi pocket clip tho. I've got 2 out of 3 of my civivi knife pocket clips bent cause it got caught on something on the bus.
It wasn’t an issue until I started sharpening my knives and then it became a very important aspect of a knife. To the point that I don’t understand why designers just don’t make a good plunge grind. Just don’t make it an issue for users.
I would like to see different grinds compared, different blade shapes, different locks, etc.
Those of us that actually use our blades, a sharpening choil is a top checklist. Collectors could care less.
Keeping my straight razors honed taught me about plunge grinds; less important for knives, I think.
I really like my Cold Steel Ultimate Hunter but the plunge is awful and I have a MASSIVE smile on it. Not sure if it hinders my sharpening at this point, but it definitely looks hideous. However, IMO a badly-done sharpening choil is almost worse than none at all because it indicates they thought about the sharpening experience but then still didn't deliver.
I always look at my buddies plunge grind especially if they want me to sharpen it I’ll tell the that the plunge grind is crap either I’m going to hit the metal or not fully 100% of the blade will be sharp since the tip and the part closes to the plunge grind are the 2 difficult places to sharpen
I’ve never encountered the problem because I use a knife for a year and then retire it for a new one from my collection.
But I always figured that if you sharpen a blade enough, eventually (1/4”?) it would always look bad and you should buy a new blade as your past the temper any ways.
But that’s just my opinion.
On any knife that I worry about this when I sharpen it I do not sharpen the very bottom area of the blade I leave that on factory edge cause I never go down that far on a cut anyway so my thoughts just don't sharpen all the way down on these knives not that big a issue unless you are a OCD freak
I see no problem with the Zaan when it comes to plunge grind 🤔
How about a video on sharpeners, Stones, diamonds, sharpening systems?
Makes me wonder if anyone has ever judge my work knife in my pouch, a cold steel tiger claw with the karambit ring cut off.
Plunge grind is not a deal breaker but I don’t like it. What is a deal breaker for me is when the stop pin is too close to the sharpening choil. I don’t want my edge hitting that stop pin when closed nor do I want it to wiggle when closed.
Plunge grinds are a tricky thing. If it's too deep and you'll lose the structural integrity of a blade. Not deep enough, and it makes it hard to sharpen. I like a good Plunge on my slicers, but for my hard use work knife, not so much
MC, they don't think you're looking at their pocket clip.
Lol
@@metal_complex you're not the only who accidentally boosted an ego while contemplating what pocket knife clip you're looking at.
Is the Zaan a bad example of a plunge grind? It’s a hollow grind with plenty of sharpening life before you anywhere close to the plunge.
Yes a crappy plunge grind bothers me. However one of the last knives i bought was an mbk mini old guard bolster lock that has a pretty bad one, basically had a small smile from factory. It didnt stop me from buying it. Ive sharpened it and avoided the end. Now i can see where the factory edge was and where mine goes to. Id rather have that though than the smile, 2mm of unusable edge than 7mm of crazy ugliness and possible messed up stones. Its also a knife that i cant add in a larger choil because the stop pin is right there like millimeters away. I love the little ass knife but damn i wish so badly it was done better. Just pull the plunge back or make the choil bigger it cant be that hard.
How long does it normally take for u guys to get knives from maxace ? Been waiting on a oder was wondering ur guys experience?
I think around a month usually
@ thanks brother I’m in Maryland the knife got to ny and cleared customs fast but has been setting in transit for like a week now lmao 😂 🤦♂️ love the channel and the way u communicate with ur audience it’s really awesome thanks a bunch man
Metal Complex Alter Ego (He was illustrating a point, but still funny)(The Metal Maniac?): 13:50
Can I get some Strop Recommendations for a strop paddle style or regular and Some good Compound I was told by two different channels I shouldn't use the Green compound that I have used forever becaue the microns aren't enough to sharpen correctly. Don't know if it's true I need some help.
I got a used shiro f95nl for what i thought was a good deal. $600. I got the knife and he over sharpened into the plunge grind. He didn't create a smile. He created a deep shoulder. It's a nice knife but that bothers me everytime i carry it. I've considered putting in a choil just to make it look nicer but meh.
If I really like a knife it doesn’t matter. But it’s something I do look for. Only because I sharpen freehand on stones. If I owned a KME I’d probs care a lot less about it.
First? Im getting into bladesmithing and want to ultimately start a pocket knife company- any tips youd give to a new company? Regarding marketing, what youd like in a knife, anything really
I'll give you a tip. Get good at it first, then worry about marketing. Hope you take this the way i intended 🙏 good luck
@@lerch400block absolutely, I will have at least two years of making knives and taking classes with ABS before I attempt to sell folders.. when I do I just want to have an idea of what this community wants that they arent able to find now or how they learn about new makers-- or how new makers make relationships with content creators or larger companies to sell their designs. Id also be interested in hearing if these people value other handforged items such as damascus/timascus pens or rings etc. Do you guys all sharpen your own knives or do people actually use sharpening services, etc. Initially my knives are going to be purely to learn the craft not for sale, but I can do day forging classes and make rings pens etc. Maybe even high quality parts for modding peoples existing knives like clips or scales.
I think you should make the sharping one of you criteria in knife reviews or a disclaimer . Because there are a lot of people out here that sharpen there own knives and make it part of the knife collecting experience and spend a great deal of their knife buying budget on knife sharping systems and stones because ... the enjoyment and satisfaction in their technical aptitude and ability.
your justification of your lack of what was said ... well frankly seems that your vast number of knives and failure to acknowledge this segment of knife enthusiast,, well seem a little snobby ...But I love man 😁
Tell me you dont sharpen your knives without telling me you dont sharpen your knives 🤣🤣
I did tell you that. Pretty much right at the beginning 👍
Here’s a question for everybody, from somebody who’s never thought about it. For the type of work the requires you to skin various gauges of wire from 1/0 to 765 AAC? What grind style would be best used??
I would tell you to get a replaceable blade because wire destroys your edge, you can get regular knives with replaceable blades like olitans knives. With different blade shapes. That way you have both a regular pocket knife and a utility blade, olitans uses good steels you can resharpen as well. Blade shape that will work best is technically a hawk bill for wire but a Wharncliffe/ Sheepsfoot with a sharp tip like a utility blade will also work well
@ thank you, appreciate the great info! Hawkbill blade shapes are definitely a very used style in the line of work!
Why not just buy electricians scissors? They are like 16 bucks and will cut most wires extremely easily.
@ small wires they will, but I’m talking about high voltage powerlines.
@@shanesandoval9954 I misread your comment. You’re just talking about cutting the sheathing off? Either way sounds like a knife is the wrong tool for that job lol.
The only thing about them am that bugs me is spyderco and how the blade starts against the edge of the plunge grind and you can’t sharper the entire blade. I still carry the tenacious as my work knife 6 days a week and sharpen it about once a month.
TRUST ME…you are not the only pocket clip snob! Here in Ohio, no knife laws, yeah EVERYONE is carrying a knife!
The ability to get a knife as sharp and capable of cutting trumps all other aspects of knife design. Much like for a fixed blade the sheath is often more important the the actual knife.
if you dont care about the plunge grind how come the hrc bothers you so much on knives? if you just collect them for light use im surprised the hrc is as important to you considering the edge will probably last a long time with your kind of usage
I kinda covered what you're saying somewhere in the middle of this video.
I pointed out that many of the issues I have with some folders are things that others would consider a non issue, and some things I don't cover at all because I have never even considered it based on my own experience. The plunge grind for example
A bad plunge has never been an element that directly affected me, but soft/poorly heat treated steel definitely has, even though it was minimal.
I am a product of my experiences.
It's very true that HRC won't have a major impact on someone like me VS someone who uses knives more often, but it is a potential issue that I was very much aware of through community discussions.
The plunge grind issue, not so much.
Either way, anything that can potentially affect one of my viewers' experience with the knife I'm reviewing is something I want to point out. So ive decided to add the plunge grind to the list of things to consider during a review.
That's kind of the whole point here. I polled it and it turns out there are lots of people concerned with it. Makes sense to add it in
I want a Shirogorov, but the plunge has stopped me from getting one.
If a grind is decent enough that it doesnt affect performance or look like it was made in a shed by a 10 year old, im not really going to fuzz too much over it not being perfect. What really bothers me though, is receiving warped or bent blades, and it happens more often than people seem to think. Most people these days seem to either send their knives in for sharpening or use some kind of fixed angle system that has very small contact surface, but if you go to sharpen a warped knife on a bench stone where you can get the entire blade to contact at the same time its going to look absolutely mangled unless you remove so much steel its straightened out.
I think this flies much more under the radar and its a shame because not only does it look awful, but it does affect cutting performance and feel too.
Screams in Spartan Harsey
Plunge grinds don’t matter for most people because most people don’t sharpen their knives…just as metal complex said two minutes into the video.
I think I said this word for word not even two minutes into the video, but my exact words were "most people don't sharpen their knives often enough for it to be an issue".
Did you watch? Or did you just go right to the comments?
@ should I have included that is what you said in the video? Here I will edit it for you
There ya go 👍
@ 😂 thanks man for the fun videos
I like hallows