$300 DIY Hifi Amplifier as good as $3k amp?Let's talk about class D!
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
- #audiophile system #stereo system review #hifi
I came across this DIY stereo power amp and wanted to use
the opportunity to talk about class D.
From what I gathered, this is 200w @ 4 ohm which is
quite impressive. Not too expensive around $300 ish USD so
definitely a fun project. Sound quality is decent, just slightly thin sounding which is typical of class D. However, given it's small size and wallet friendly price, it might appeal to some of you.
If you want to know more about this DIY amp, here is the link to the original video. Check the description for info on the parts.
ruclips.net/video/gD3ypntBF8c/видео.html
The ICEpower module in the video and probably the one you got is the 200as which is an old and outdated module with low switching frequency and no support for BTL mode which allows you to use a stereo Amp as a monoblock.
The newer modules are the asx family like the 125asx2, which is rated at 400W in BTL and has a 650kHz switching frequency. The as modules are designed for subwoofer use and not full range speakers due to limited 250kHz switching frequency.
I recommend you do try a newer module in BTL. Contact Ghent Audio for help. I'll bet that the 125asx2, which is the same dual modules used in ps audio 3000$ stellar Amp, will sound better that your current non class d amplifiers.
at 1:34 video show the modules used. ICEpower200ASC and datasheet says the following: typical switching frequency idle 430 kHZ, switching frequency range 460Khz, switching frequency power supply 64kHz.
the newer ICEpower250ASX2 goes to 600 kHZ and 92 kHz powersupply.
@@sudd3660
They are still inferior compared to the ASX2 series:
www.profusionplc.com/parts/icepower200asc
look at the price difference:
www.profusionplc.com/parts/icepower250asx2
100 vs 260 pounds per module, The ASC are stereo only, and ASX2 are stereo or mono BTL at 500W and 650kHz frequency.
ASC is generic for subwoofers and av receivers, ASX2 for high end hi-fi. Dial 250ASX2 will cost you 510 pounds. PS Audio Stellar will cost you 2000 pounds for the exact same modules...
i am not commenting on sound quality difference, i just have the 200 asc myself and have spec sheet here.
i notice you have the numbers wrong, in the sound apartment i can't say much.200asc is mono modules only, got to buy 2 modules to makes stereo power amp. and in not sold on blt or bridging amps, you basically half the ohm they can handle. many speakers dip below 3.7ohm, bridging an amp that handles 4 ohms easily now only does 8 ohm.
Very good video with great amount of detail. As a musician and sound engineer I use class-d for reference monitoring. What you have described as a disadvatage of this amp seems to be a huge advantage for studio use. For this reason I would say that this amp might worth a try without tube stages for reference monitoring.
Best explanation of differences between class D VS class A/B amplifiers I have ever heard! Thanks again Thomas your one of the best! Really appreciate your no bs reviews. Can’t wait to see what you come up with next!
Just saw this. Thanks for the shout out. It's great to hear your friend is happy with it. I'm really glad that video is helping it those who want to do this type of project. I'm loving your setup. You have some real nice equipment. Keep up the awesome videos!
Thanks for dropping by and yeah, my friend really enjoyed working on the unit. Your video was detail enough for him to be able to built it easily.
My first time building a DIY amp, it was done in less than 3 hours and connected it to my first DYI SWANs 3.1 speakers that I just completed. This really was great fun, value and quality sound well beyond the price point! Compares well with many other AMPs that cost significantly more. It killed my PS audio SPROUT. Now looking for my first DIY tube pre-amp Ito pair with them!
Did you ever find a good DIY tube pre-amp to pair?
I would also love to know what preamp/dac you paired with this. I’m looking to build swan 3.1’s and an amp like this soon too.
Hi Thomas, It seems no matter how great a piece of equipment there’s always something about it that keeps it from being perfect. The audiophile is always in search, forever restless, hence, tortured. But I do enjoy your listening to your search for unobtainable perfection!
Yeah, I completely get it :)
Not forever, but you're right I have been tortured for many years....
Just after the turn of the year the Matsushita and Toshiba tubes arrived and I have reached audiophile nirvana.
There's marginally better tubes out there, but I am not going to feed the greed of those who ask hoard them and ask exorbitant prices for such.
Bro yr Flex was so funny "I don't have a $3, 000 Amp "........
Yeah,I don't have the Lexus but I do have this 13 year old Corolla that gets around.
Ha! Bought the Freya+ preamp based on your video and just got used Jeff Rowland 535 to give class D a try. They push Open Baffle speakers by Spatial Audio. (M3 Sapphires) The class D bass control and the high-end colored with tubes make for a good listen in my world... thanks for all the great content.
I purchased the SMSL 98E class D amplifier, and with the right interconnects and speaker cables, along with my reference CD player and speakers, I am convinced, that this little amp out performs....Class A, AB amps ive owned that cost thousands! As far as am concerned, my days for expensive....snake oil audio gear is over.
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This is one of the most useful audiophile videos I've seen on all of RUclips, even if you exclude the fact that I have been contemplating building that amp - which I have now decided I will indeed build. Thank you!
Thomas by far has the best audio reviews I've found.
I've build my own twin monoblocks class d amps using two ICEpower asx125 modules in BTL mode. I'm using using them with NAD C658 preamp DAC and Focal Aria 926 and the sound is great. I've borrowed a dual Electrocompanient monoblocks that costs over 5000$ and could not tell the difference. The diy project cost me about 700$. ICEpower modules are great
Nice, thanks for sharing.
Great information, I didnt realise class D has become so popular with high end equipment 😮👍👍👍 i only knew about it from 15 years ago with bass amps for cars 😬👍
Best audio review I've listened to yet. Made some great points in a very clear and concise manner in answering my class D questions 😀.
This amp lets all of my speakers sound like they are supposed to sound. Choice of pre-amp has more effect than amp does, in my experience. I have this as a near field system with a pair of JBL S38ii studio speakers and a tube pre. It has no right sounding as good as it does for what is invested. This system will thump you to your core and never gets hot.
1st time hearing one of your videos. You have a very easy manner to your presentation. Very well done; subscribed.
One class d amp i have been very impressed by is the Icepower250a amp module. I'm using it with elac uf5 floorstanding speakers. On aliexpress/ebay they sell finished amplifiers based on it.
The amp in the video is a icepower amp module
Great insight as usual Thomas.
I agree you need to balance class D with some smoother components to get a pleasing sound.
Some R2R DACs and smoother transistor pres like the Ladder Schuman can achieve similar results without the high maintenance of tubes.
Im a noob and stumbled on this and I have to say it's an outstanding explanation of amps in general. You lost me on the higher end amps' characteristics, but your room layout is breathtaking. I'm a guitar player, not a singer so my ears are a bit "guitarded" anyway.
Thanks for dropping by. Yeah, it took me months to built that room.
The B&O icepower is well worth the money, very well build no fuzz amp.
you can plug directly into 230/110 volt power. It got auxiliary power output
to Opamp filters, so no worries on fail ground issues.
The noise is none existing.
I can not hear any digital sound to it, sound warm to me.
All though my speakers do have that sound allready.
A really recommended product to DIY speakers.
I believe B&O was the inventor of digital sound, to their own products, so naturally they are in a pretty high standard already when they came out.
All though they sold Icepower later.
This is a great video. I'm building my loudspeaker system as of now and I went with a class AB luxman amps. They're stereo but can be bridged to mono, which is how I'll be using them. though I considered Class D amps. When I get my base system setup with the class AB monoblocks I just got maybe later on I'll try some modern class d budget amps. Thanks for your great vids!
Your welcome. Luxman makes very nice amps, congrats.
I found my sweetspot at the Audiophonics HPA-S250NC. That's a dual mono Hypex 250 pre-build. I can't imagine anything sounding cleaner. It's just overall trouble-free.. I guess that's what you'll call transparent. You literally don't worry about your amplifier anymore, your sound gets amplified but in no way can you fault the amplification stage. No noise, no distortion, super linear, extremely fast response. €699,- class-D perfection.
Do you still have that amp? How you feel about it? I also got it but maybe war to get a tube amp. What pre amp do you use? I got smsl su 9 and audio physic classic 20 speakers.
I really enjoy your videos and your thoughts. Your stories about the expiriences you share with your hifi friends are very sympathetic to me. My friends do not share my interest in hifi, but we communicate in a similar way about wine.
Thanks, it would be nice if I enjoy wine too but sadly I don't. I know I am missing out a lot.
Exactly correct. As a studio owner and operator I know that Class D and Solid State amps are tighter in the lows. Therfore I use a classic like an SSL 4000E eq and Preamps on drums(kick, toms, and overheads - variably) and bass, along with API eqs and Pre's on mid frequencies-variably and Neve 1073 eqs and Pre's, 88, etc, on highs-variably. For instance on a nice acoustic guitar that needs to fill the midrange ill use an API, for the attack and grit I'll use a Neve, for big body punch I'll use an SSL, etc. Well the same concept applies to audio listening as well. Depending on your crossover(it's gotta be good and clean) you can set one to run your lows 0hz-800mhz through a Class D amp, and put the rest through a class A. Or get crazy and split it 3 or 5 ways! Variable pots will make selection of crossover assignable frequencies more fine tunable and possibly accurate(depending on what your going for), however for recalability stepped pots are recomended. Of course then you have to worry about phase and phase distortion, but those can be dealt with after a little experimentation and research. What might be great is a digital crossover with low latency. That way you can cure a multitude of problems before they happen! Good luck and keep us posted! For lows keep it solid state, tubes nature it bloom in the bottom end. However the bottom end is only 1 small part of the story, so bear that in mind! 1hz-1khz takes up half of the frequency spectrum! And you say.. "But Ass, the frequency spectrum runs from 20hz-20khz(relatively as ut actually runs higher), and I say" Yes, but that low end information is larger! So when you think about filing a room 20hz-1khz yikes up half of the room with that 1000 cycles of information because the waveforms are larger and take up more room, whereas 1k-20khz cycles are smaller therefore they take up less room in a per cycle basis!" Food for thought. Eat it up and digest for future reference.
Nice, thanks for the long comment. I don't have as much technical knowledge as you guys so always nice to read comments like these.
I'm running Rotel RMB-1085+emotive UMC-1 with two pairs of Maggie MG12s + 2x Polk DSW pro 550 subs( speaker level ), yes a multi channel setup and I love the sound. Bad recordings do stand out on my system. I had to trash a CD that I once liked. I went from Yamaha DSP A1 to this. I've been running the Maggie's + Rotel class D for about 10 years. I grow up around my dads tubes, hybrid, AB amp, Quad ESLs , and ohm speakers. My second system is 2 different stax ear speakers + oppo Blu-ray player. My favorite amp was my dad's moscode 300 connected to my Maggie's. My first speakers were genesis genre 2 I got when I finished highschool in 98. I've listened to a ton of hardware over my life time ( 40 years ). It seemed like everyone was pooping on class D when I was enjoying it. Now everyone is starting to take it's seriously.
Nice, thanks for sharing. I never tried Maggie at my place but heard it a few times and it is nice.
Thank you Thomas , please continue to teach us . This was so informative .
You nailed Thom, all gear have some sort of coloration. I personally find well designed class D amps like ICE or NCore very neutral without the sometimes "sterile" signature of SS. And I like them because of that neutrality. I have built an Ice power amp box similar to the one you have using their smaller module, single ended stereo, 50 watts per channel. I wanted something small, compact and not too expensive to go with my mid range Schiit gear being repurposed for my home office. The ice power modules work very well for this purpose. I do prefer the Hypex modules though. I think they will give you a more high end presentation than the ice modules. I have their NC400 monoblocs in my main system and love them. And they are compact and run cool, I can hide them in my living room cabinets for a minimal stereo system.
Yeah, I need to try Hypex class D amps too, hopefully one day!
doesnt matter really if sound made from ex a12t it will sound best with a12t, thats it pretty simple
I totally agree about class D and tubes pre awesome combo nice video
Yup, you tried it so you know how the bass is.
Having just assembled an HYPEX NCORE 502MP I will say that self-built Class D is a very viable option for anyone wanting world-class sound. My self-built amp is now the best amp I've ever owned. The main feature of for example HYPEX or PurFi amps is that they have NO signature, or coloration - just pure, clean sound, and lots of power at incredible efficiency. I really listen to my preamplifiers, not the power amp - and depending on what I want in a particular scenario I can completely change the sound by using for example tube preamplifiers or solid state / mosfet preamps.
I will never go back to Class A, or A/B.
Yeah the lack of coloration is one of the appeal of class d.
Hey, can you share a link to that kit? I thought these are only OEM. Would love to get my hands an that kit :)
@@ranelime The 'official' kits are here: www.diyclassd.com/diy-kit/ - anything other than that is indeed OEM only.
I have XTZ Edge A300 and JDS Lab Atom. This combination is very good!
"Class D is true to the source." Thomas, that's just such a great point. I've been an audiophile for 45 years and owned both class AB solid state and tubes. For the longest time I loved, loved, loved the sound of tube amplification, but eventually I realized that those amps made the voice on my Johnny Rotten tracks sound like Tony Bennett. Obviously, when that is happening something is drastically amiss. Plainly, the tubes were coloring the sound with audible distortion, and, having at long last come to that realization, I am now of the school that says distortion is distortion, and needs to be eliminated no matter how "pleasant" it initially seems to make the sound.
The unit you listened to is an entry level Class D. Personally, I think you need to audition something like a Hypex NC400 Class D build, or a Benchmark AHB2, or a Purifi build by Nord. Those amps are using edge of the art ultra low distortion modules, and you might find they best whatever you have in your equipment rack for less than your $4000 Bel Cantos. Class D might even be for you, albeit with a more advanced design at a somewhat higher price point.
That Benchmark is a fantastic, highly sophisticated amp, but it's not actually a Class D design -- although it's similarly small, light, and efficient.
Thanks for the comment. Yeah, I need to get my hands on some different kind of class D to try.
"First off, I don't have a 3K power amp. I have a Hulk"
Flexes. Proceeds with video.
I bought icepower 1200as from nord acoustic while they are technically very good and smooth sounding. There were lean and bass was super fast, controled but lacking impact and decay was super fast. I use it with bright and fast speaker and I did not like it at all. So I agree matching is important and tube in chain should help.
Yup, it is all about synergy.
I believe the class D amps sounded dry to people is due to the use of SMPT power supplies. My tpa3116 amps and 3255 amp paired with high end regulated linear power supplies don't sound dry at all. As a matter of fact, I put all 10 tube amps including 2a3s, 45s, el84s on shelf and have no desire of going back to them. Speakers used are Mcintosh XRT18, Celestion 7000 and Pioneer A30 coaxial in a 2.5 L ported box. (My experience with SMPT PS is dry sounding. The sound has that glossed-over quality no matter what type of music played.)
Yeah, we have a class D amp with a linear power supply, sounds not dry at all.
I've been using a Class D Audio SDS-470C power amp (made in USA) with upgraded power supply for more than 7 years, can't find anything cheaper that sound as good as the SDS power amp, not sure if it works like other amps, but it does work well with my Wharfedale Denton 80th speakers.
I have one for my rear speakers. I tried it on front channel while it works pretty well but it does have a relatively high background noise. I didn't notice that for the rear channels because the speakers were far away and I have the trigger turning it off if I'm not on movie inputs.
If you hear close in few inches, sure has noise, but it's not hearable from normal listening distance, another issue would be overheat at Malaysia here, anyway I'm OK to have the cover removed all the time though.
@@ousi00 The noise is a power supply hum. It is audible close up, but from as little as 6' away, it's not.
DIY amps can be easily sold on diyaudio. Just not for what you paid for them.
Do not be afraid to also ad a self powered subwoofer. It will help. And yes, the warm sounding component (Pre amp, cables, tubes,...
Yup, I have 2 REL at my place.
Excellent video. You convinced me to build one of these, or something similar, and get a tube pre-amp to go in front. I'm just getting into hifi, but I have the blessing/curse of having a slight neurological disorder to my hearing that makes it so I can't pick out sounds the whiter the noise gets. Blessing because I know the truly high end hifi equipment is just wasted on me, curse because I dont understand what you are saying while this microwave and fan are running.
Thanks for the excellent video. Your descriptions and reasoning were easy to follow and your persona was earnest and sincerely interested in the topic.
Check out the XTZ video I made and upcoming crown video.
XTZ is only $200 more, but no balanced XLS or true monoblock setting. Still might be fun DIY project.
Simple ...All $3000 amps cost $300 to make
Have been using a Chinese assembled 125ASX2 in my living room along with an LC75342 pre-amp and love it. If I need a vintage coloring I'll switch over to my 1959 integrated Knight amp. Otherwise class D rules.
As soon as someone tells me something like: this class A amp adds warmth and emotion. in my mind the only thing I hear is: this class A amp adds distortion. Tubes add distortion. It is true. Allthough I like the sound of class A and A/B, it is really old tech and it is at the end, there is no improvement possible.
On the other side is class D which is cheaper, modern tech and adding less distortion. Not the so called warmth and emotion. But more true to the signal it is getting. Therefore some brands add distortion on purpose to give it the warmth and emotion hifi freaks and class A lovers speak about.
I own a marantz class D and I love it. I like the warmth and most of all it's affordable. Class A is simply too expensive for what it delivers: old tech.
I like the old tech for what it is but never say you need tubes in the chain. You don't need to add unnecessary distortion by adding tubes. You only need to add whatever you think sounds best for your budget.
Keep it clean.
I'm just getting into quality audio gear and enjoying your videos.
Welcome to my channel.
The best available Class D amps are based on Purifi output modules, designed by same genius who did the NCore modules for Hypex. Both Purifi and NCore modules blow anything from IcePower right out of the water. Moreover, the latest and greatest monolithic Class D chip from TI, the TPA3255, is performance-competitive with the IcePower stuff for far less money -- I just bought a Chinese-made TPA3255(x2)-based 2.1 amp board via AliExpress for about $32 USD with free shipping.
When it's done right, Class D is nothing less than a revolution in home stereo and professional audio amplification -- in fact, my current little 2.1 "chip amp," based on TI's older TAS5630 chips, is both much more powerful and every bit as great sounding as the highly-praised, Nelson Pass-designed Adcom GFA-535 I swore by back in the 1980s on up though Y2K.
Well put. Class D put serious power and simplicity in the hands of average consumers. The DIY crowd has a world of options. Marshall amplifiers went from mosfets to class d on the solid state models and the power per dollar has tripled.
@@tednugentlives -- I use a pedal-sized Quilter MicroBlock 45 that sounds so good through my vintage JBL that I've retired my old Tweed Bassman clone.
Great info. Do you have diy amp designs you can link to?
Some of the TPA3255 designs have taken too many shortcuts so don't buy the cheapest versions on ebay. 70-100usd costing versions for pcb chip amp usally have good output chokes which is extremely important in class D. The layout on the pcb is extremely important in class D because of the high switching frequencies, so naturally some design isn't as good as others. A low esr powersupply paired with a class D design can give extremely good bass but yet neutral sounding. The best assembled kits I've tried is so far from 3e-audio on ebay. I've also tried some from LJM on ebay which even cheaper and sounds quite nice. The best TPA3116 also sounds good but doesn't have the power the other ones have. Because of the efficiency these design have it's never been this cheap to get good audio.
Bruce i was a hater of class D for years then i heard a amplifier with the Hypex ncore power module and i saw the light wow great great great sound. For the money class D cannot be beat period. The days of having a giant toroidal transformer and giant heat sinks in a 60 pound amp are gone class D is just as you said a revolution in home audio. And with all the money saved buying a good class D amp you can get some really kick ass speakers.
I would like to see some blind A-B tests of the different amps you have there.
I love your channel, Thomas. It's like sitting down over a coffee with a friend who's into the same stuff. Interesting about the lower-cost class D sounding thin. I was tempted by the kit but may not build it unless I come by some older speakers. I have heard good things about the Primare A35.2 - using Primare's own take on Hypex-like technology. Currently waiting for an audition... However I have just tweaked my Primare+Exposure+KEF Reference system after a house move and am in love again. 😀
FWIW I have 2 WLAN routers and a DECT wireless phone near my system, also all lights are LED with dimmers, so ferrite cores on all power cables have opened up the sound beyond belief (less congestion, more clarity, more dynamics and bass) and decoupling the KEF References from the concrete floor has made them sing again. I used to believe in spikes but no longer. To my surprise decoupling the KEF References released more top energy. And I was genuinely shocked by drum impacts on tracks I know well. Now I experience performances, instead of 'canned music'.
All the best from Switzerland, Rob
'Lower cost' class D is in the realms of power output, marketing and chip used. The measurements is in the 'diminishing returns' category once one gets past the realistic home performance level (based on health and social responsibility lol). Class D measurements are as electronically hifi as accepted audibility can be. Subjective listening qualities is another matter. It's flat and distortion levels are low low. It will sound thin(er), no matter the cost of the unit, when paired with accurate speakers and audiophile source. A lot of speakers (especially standmounts) have bass bloom engineered in to them to give body to the mids. Most hi end floorstanders with good bass response in themselves, are badly positioned in room also resulting in bloom. All these create an impression of 'a fuller' sound we get used to but check against monitoring headphones.
The components used for these are pennies. The chip and marketing is where the cost is. Even on cheaper units using old chips or copied tech, measured and audible performance hasn't necessarily been surpassed at domestic use level by more recent chips. On the marketing side, the same Hypex nc400 with relatively unobtrusive tweaks and board layout change maybe produced OEM for big brands. So in the end, one is paying for the brand and not the tech. Have a peek at the Hypex site. Not all their OEM agreements are public but which Hifi brands are using their tech directly?
You can get this module OEM inside a €1k machined aluminium chassis, with platinum posts and sockets for €500 and buy it retail for €4k. It will sound the same but with more badge kudos on the rack. Actually, look around for this types of examples.
My one criticism of Thomas, because he's not inclined to look under the bonnet of amps, he places too much weight on retail cost of a unit as a guideline to expected performance. I've grown sick to my stomach, for example, seeing the same Chinese OEM phono circuit board between products that have a 200x price difference... I'm paying for the logo and a fancy chassis, I don't mind. But, I'd be damned if this reflects performance in itself.
My synergy is class AB for mains and class D for the subs. Sweeeet!
I don’t even know how to plug so many components in to one another. Sigh. I’m sure I’ll work my way up.
Little bit late to the party on this one, but i parked this video because I kept getting interrupted by everybody, and I'm just getting back to it. :) Anyhoo...glad to see somebody with the idea of using this thing for the subs. I had the same idea mainly because I'm slowly (as the money drips in) building an active speaker system requiring 8 channels, 4 of which are high quality class AB, and a bit on the expensive side. So the this little class D looked like a possible stopgap solution. Good to see you're pleased with the move you made!
Nice video Thomas. I hear many people enjoy their Pioneer Elite receivers which uses some form of Class D technology in their receivers. Gobs of power and they stay cool. The last Pioneer receiver I owned had the older MOSFET amplifier in it and was quite good. To my knowledge Pioneer is one of the only receiver manufacturers that have moved on exclusively to Class D with most everyone else still using some form of Class AB.
I never heard the elite series so I don't know how good they are. The regular series are not audiophile level though.
@ Thomas & Stereo - The Elite receivers are nice. Certainly a step up from their regular line. We’re not comparing them to Classe or Pass Labs amplifiers of course.
i might try this with my Yahmaha NS-1000m since i dont like to spend alot on an amp!
The 200ASC and 300ASC are some of the better sounding IcePower modules. However, I agree that Class-D in general is leaner-sounding than Class-AB. Hypex nCore comes extremely close - a friend of mine was actually happy with a pair of nCore monoblocks taking the place of his hot-running Pass Aleph-0 amps in the summertime to keep his listening room cool. Class D is also happier driving complex or low impedances than a lot of other amps are. And if you need a low-cost entry into hi-fi, a class-D chip amp with the TI TPA3116 chip is one of the best things going in "cheap and cheerful" hifi.
I see the nCores usually have better measurements on Audio Science Review.
Thanks, I have to try nCore some day
I build $300 DIY ICE amps and I love it. It's great with Pro-Ject Pre-amp RS that has tube output and all Balance. Phono stage Whest PS3R. My speakers are Merlin TSM. I listen to l mostly Punk Rock and Garage Rock on vinyl and sounds really good the base is deep and tight like it should be. I don't listen to audiophile crap. The low cost DIY class D just does things right.
There is a $350,000 amp which uses 833-A power tubes normally used in radio station transmitters. It runs on 1000 Volts. One can be built for about $1500 and use better driver tubes.
I guess its good to know people who can help build those high-end amps.
I have watched a few of your Class D videos... I can say this, when I hooked up my SVS Soundbase to my SVS Ultra and a pair of Klipsch, I immediately heard a sonic difference vs my Emotiva XPA2. Everything opened up, I mean opened up. I'm beginning to become a fan of the D's, along with the price compared to A/B. Got the Freya... ;-)
Congrats!
really interesting and well produced video. Thanks man
I would bet that the high output impedance of the class D would make it better to drive "hard to drive" speakers.
Hahahaha had to pause and say love the casual way you say I happen to have two 4k class D amps .....legend
Hehe...
Lyngdorf $250,000 statement amp: class D.
@@scottlowell493 only :)
My car cost less..
Your house costs less. Lol
Not all class A amplifiers sound similar. Not all A/B amps sound similar. Not all triode single ended tube amplifiers sound similar. Why would one assume all class D amplifiers sound similar? Prejudice?
Yup, there are good class D and so so class D amps.
Imma be using three ice power amps for the ultimate Bluetooth speaker. 1 x 10” Dayton ultimax and two Morel/Parts express ardon speaker kits. It will all be one large unit. 1 x 500w for the sub and 2 x 200w for the L and R outputs. It’s gonna be nuts!
Another thing with class D is that you needs to be left on for long listening sessions and I agree that the pairing is great based on some form of a straight tube design or some type of hybrid tube design. I remember when I first made the move to class D from tube Audio Research Vt100 MKIII to the Audio Research DS450 and thinking what the hell have I done. The dealer told me ahead of time to plug the amp in and let it run for 4 days and he was right it opened up a great deal and sounded great. My Dealer hosted Audioquest at his shop and used my amp instead of the Ref 75 or Ref 150 and it didn't disappoint, but it was backed up by the Audio Research Ref 5se.
Hey Sid, yeah class D needs to be plug in for a while before reaching optimal performance. I don't turn off my class D amps actually. I just got a pair of Wyred4sound mono blocs and they sound pretty good. Wow, going from tubes to class D and you were ok with it? Yup, class D have come a long way.
In my experience, Class D is not lean sounding. To me it sounds really neutral with incredible dynamics and bass slam. I have many amps and I like my Class D amp (Emerald Physics EP100.2 SE) best for watching action movies. My other tube and solid state amps sound a bit "colored" by comparison. Sometimes I prefer "colored" vs "neutral" - so much depends on the source, system, room and personal perferences. At the price, I think this is worth a try.
Yup, I guess it is relative. For some, your description is perfect. Neutral with incredible dynaimcs and bass slam. I just noticed that relative to some of the warmer class AB and A amps I have tried.
Thanks Thomas for your analysis.
My class D audio amp isn't a kit- but can be ordered as such. One of the differences in my Class D amp vs others? I have a power supply with large storage caps. The storage caps make a BIG difference in dynamics and overall sound.
Yup that is one of the reason why not all class d amps sound the same.
So how would this $300 amp compare to a $3000 amp that sounds like a $30,000 amp?
Really interesting and super well done. There are a lot of possible angles here e.g. comparison of say ICE/Ucd/Ncore which you have alluded to. Class D is easy to run passive with high Zin's, though as you point out needs 'warming' - it makes for a good upgrade path. Schiit Freya with switchable tube/SS/Passive modes(i think??) would be a convenient way to try out/review the impact of different input stages.
Couple more points;
I think well-done DIY classD amps are seeing a little more traction 2nd hand - the idea is becoming more popular and not everyone wants to take it on, and a 'below cost of parts' deal on something already built must be a tempter to some. Indeed, companies like 'Nord' are essentially a professional implementation of this (though they have obviously done a vast amount of work in their development)
I suspect the 'transparency' of class D makes it very susceptible to influence from the preamp stage, a trait that can be used to much advantage. e.g. you get more of a 'new amp' by just changing the pre than you would with a more coloured power amp?
Great points you brought up. I need to try other class d amps besides ice. When a system is neutral, it is easier to tune the sound of a system. Thanks.
Interesting feature and I have been looking for some d amp monoblocks and it seems hypex ncore's are making waves over icepower modules...and some are voiced so it would be nice if you would review both the high and low end products from Nord acoustic and also maybe hypex's own nc400 DIY mono's
Try the Purifi option... next level.
Regarding that resale comment I would like to say: 1) If you buy it's 3.000 concurent, the day you take it you will loose minimum 300 $ we are talking about. 3) If are going to sell it with a discount for the buying price and you state - BO modules inside I bet you will be able to collect most of invested money!
Interesting. I'm running a class D amp with a valve CD player.
i found a used power amp made from exactly those modules a few years back, nice to see someone review them.
they come in mono modules with own power supply, do you end up with proper dual mono and 2x 100watts in 8ohm.
I do not have tube in my system, bel canto dac 2.5 as preamp and dac, i really should look into some tube preamps at some point. i have subwoofer so thin sounding below 150 hz is optional for me.
i also had a similar hypex power amp for testing before i choose the icepower one. only reason i sent the hypex back was i got some hiss noise from it.
I see. Yeah, adding a tube preamp in your setup might be something worth trying. Thanks!
I think the way to go is tri-amplification with a quality active crossover. I've wanted to try a class-a to drive the tweeters, a class-ab for the midranges, and a class-d for the woofers.
Just have to make sure the timing is right with a tri amp setup
@@ThomasAndStereo I'm always laboring to get my timing right... lol!
Yours Bel Cantos have the same Ice Power modules inside.
Well, a lot of class D probably use something similar, it depends how they design the rest of the circuit that will make all the difference.
Great video. Learn a great deal. Always watch your videos 2 or 3 times, because I pick up something new I missed. Switched to Simaudio A/B amplification recently. Curious on your experience, which speakers and brands pair really well with your Simaudio Moon amp and why? Thank you, cheers.
Well the older simaudio, I find them warmer but the latest moon are quite analytical. I paired them with so many speakers that I don't really remember. Although it sounds good with most, I would say my moon is not as good compared to my class d amps when the speaker is difficult to drive.
I’m all class d amplification now. PS Audio M700 mono blocks in one room and crown xls 2502 with KEF LS50’s. Great pairing but needs a smooth DAC like a PS Audio Directream DAC or tube preamp to balance the sound well.
Nice, I would like to try the M700 one day.
Thomas & Stereo M700’s are really great amps but I prefer pairing the Crown xls 2502 with my KEF LS50’s which is kind of funny to me because of how much less expensive it is and it isn’t marketed as a “hi-fi” product😊 thanks for all of the great content that you create and enable us to enjoy! I’ve learned a lot from you and really appreciate it!
Sorry forgot to mention that I also use a REL T7i connected directly to the Crown xls 2502 which also integrates really well with the LS50’s. I can’t listen to LS50’s without a good sub in the mix😊
Class D amplifiers can sound really good when paired with linear power supplies.
Ah, I did not know that. Thanks.
@@ThomasAndStereo most have switching type like in ur laptop or smartphone
@@ThomasAndStereo but you can't do it with ICEpower modules, as they already got the power supply built in, which is a switching power supply, but with very low voltage ripple. I doubt if you can beat that with a linear power supply...
Why would that be? If the designer can't successfully filter out the carrier wave from the power supply how can he filter it out from the amp section? And if the carrier wave is successfully filtered out of the power supply why would it be worse than a linear power supply?
@@anonmouse956
This is why it's not true. The class d output stage includes low pass filter that filters out anything above 40kHz. The SMPS's carrier frequency is 100kHz and the class d carrier is 650kHz according to darashet, so both are filtered out. If a linear psu is used, the output filter won't be able to filter out the 120 or 100Hz ripple of the linear psu.
The problem is that most audiofools think that linear supplies are superior due to lake of understanding in power electronics, or any other technical subject for that matter...
I agree since the goal often is neutral the 300 dollar can be good enough.
Funny how balance works regarding your friends gear working with the cheaper one.
Then again a schiit mani is better Than many more expensive phono stages so there you go.
I have a little bear pre amp that goes into a dynamic precision 2000 euro amp. Just to be able to go xlr to the amp.
It sounds amazing.
Yeah, it is all about synergy. The more expensive gear is not necessarily the best gear for a system.
Thomas, thanks for posting. Class D aka chip amplification, isn't going anywhere. In fact, in 2 to 3 years nearly everything will be class D. The reasons are simple : it is good clean power with no buzz, hum, snap, crackle or pop and a dead quiet floor. There's no real advantage to A or AB amps other than some unknown factor that some claim. Any amp has only one job : TO AMPLIFY. And that's it. As far as the best front end, that would be a class D amp paired with a good tube preamp, IMHO.
Well , class A and AB do sound different. If you read the comments in my video, some people just prefer it over class D. I do think it class D is here to stay and it will mature further.
@@ThomasAndStereo Yep. Listening has as much to do with the brain as it has to do with the gear, that's why this hobby is so interesting. And Thomas, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year -- please keep up the great work you do! May 2020 be good to you!
@@ThomasAndStereo Seeing this video and reading the comments has flung me out into quite the journey. I ordered a case from Ghent and an ICEPower ICE125ASX2 amp module for my office computer sound system (Dragonfly Cobalt + Klipsch kg2). The Purifi amplifier modules (commented about here) designed by Bruno Putzeys are getting some great buzz so I'm following threads at audiosciencereview.com about builds people are working on. Fun stuff.
Hi Thomas. Always enjoy your videos. I recently built the DIY Class D amp suggested by Guntars Smits on his video. As he recommends, I use a DacMagic Plus as pre-amp. It sounds surprisingly good. I live in the suburbs of Montréal. If you would ever like to compare to your friend's $300 DIY Hifi Amplifier, do not hesitate to let me know... I would be curious... Perhaps others would also be...
I am at La Prairie, what about you?
Vaudreuil-Dorion ...20 minutes by #30
I have a Naïm Naît 5i that I switch back and forth with. They do sound different to me, but most of my friends (non-audiophile) cannot tell the difference. My Naïm puts out 90 Watts @ 4 ohms while the DIY puts out 250 (according to Infineon’s spec sheet for Iraudamp7s) Feel free to let me know if a comparison would interest you.
I was thinking about trying to build one but I don't want to waste money. I'm listening through an avr would it be an improvement
Very informative. That class D is definitely interesting.
Thanks, I think class D is something everyone should give a chance to.
@@ThomasAndStereo not until you listen to the purifi amp. it is the best sounding class D amp ever, hands down.
@@nabildanial00 -- Yeah, it's really outstanding, Bruno's best yet!
I've always thought that the goal is to amplify the signal faithfully with no distortion or coloring. All else comes down to personal preference and what you have become accustomed to. With lab test equipment, we can measure the performance of a component far more accurately than the human ear can discern. If you want a different sound, add a 20-band EQ and set it to what you like.
Depends what your goal is. My goal is to built a system that makes me enjoy the music. I don't care if I recreate faithfully what the artist intended. Check out my Loki review where I go into more detail.
First time listening to you. Instant subscriber.
Welcome to my channel !
I tried recently Primare i25 integrated and it was shockingly good. The source was McIntosh CDP.
Looks like a nice integrated.
i have primareA20 mk2,like it better than my powerful roksan candy mk2
Nice vlog as always....have you tried a Nord Acoustics One NC500 MK2 ? It uses an A class input Op Amp in to the D power Amp 👍
i am wondering the same thing, want to upgrade from my icepower to more powerful class d as some point.
but it looks like it runs pretty hot a idle and low loads. i like how icepower runs so cool
No but one day ! One day!
There is absolutely no point to mixing Class A and Class D -- almost any audio-specific op amp chip will give you the same (or better) performance driving a Class D output stage as any Class A input circuit, so matter how well-designed.
As a man whose main amp is a semi-diy setup, I'm interested in this. I call it a semi as it's an early 70's Pioneer tube receiver that I've effectively overhauled over the last decade and now that I know it inside and out, I can pick up on what component does what to which sound. I don't know if the same would apply here. But, hmmmm,,,,
I believe all Pioneer receivers were solid state in the seventies. Yours is probably early to mid sixties. What model is it?
@@keithb6717 They maintained a small line of tube based ones sold mainly in Japan (I believe mine came from a military PX on Okinawa). Though, a few retailers in the States maintained a supply: the ER-420.
After years of expensive amps I just took a cheap gamble and made a class d amp for 30.00 it blows away any of my class a amps period. Just get a decent circuit board and power supply as some of the cheap ones have a lot of background hiss
From what you said, you don't like hifi. Why ? Because you want to add "warm" first stage. You want to add even harmonics then and it is not hifi anymore because you are adding distortion. In hifi, you don't want to mess with the record and the original mixing.
If you want to mess with the original record, there is nothing wrong with that, but it is not hifi anymore. But I would prefer to add such distortion in a special gear made in such a way that you can choose the effect (a DSP might be nice for this) and have everything else as transparent and perfect as possible.
A hifi amplifier is a "wire with gain". Of course no amplifier is perfect, but we should try to have an amplifier as close to perfection as possible. These cheap class-D amplifiers are really good for this, and it is the reason why some people don't like them, they don't cheat.
But what exactly does “digital” sound like? I’ve head this many of times since I was 6yo to now I’m 34in May. Can someone explain to me what that sounds like? Is it the lack of distortion that you have with like say an LP or cassette?
Most look at it in terms of the amplifier distortion. Digital is harsh, analog is thicker sounding, and tubes are warm and musical, notes are harmonic even when overdriven. Some notes "sing" . Played thru guitar amps , a single note has different characteristics.
Most people mean a flat frequncy response and no distortions with subharmonics. The subharmonics changes the perceived sound a lot. Some people like it and some don't. Usually the 2. and 3. subharmonics is extremely low in favourable class D designs vs a tube amp with tubey sound. A tube amp without distortion usally sounds like any class AB amp. A tube amp usally have 0.07-0.5% harmonic distortion and a good class D amp has 0.05 or lower distortion. Of coarse this is an extreme generalization. Class D is also analogue in a technical term but "digital" is a word thrown around probably because of the pwm switching in the output stage.
I think only way to know is just AB test a cheap dac against the turntable. See what you get out of it.
you never mentioned whether the amps you tested and the DYI matched up in per channel power, etc. which may explain the difference in base and such. Personally, not ready make a move to D, but it's clear they're coming into their own.
Why not do a tube pre amp for class D if it sounds too 'thin' ?
Class D sure has something going for it. I prefer my class D Wyred4sound St500 mated to my Pure Audio Project Quintet 15 speakers Top to bottom especially the bass grip on those 15"× 4 woofers per side. Let's you feel the visceral music.
However Class D loses some of the midrange 3d Magic and sounds bit dry in this region. I've noticed this when matched with all my other premium speakers like Magnepans 20.1 and Sonus Faber Elipsas or Proacs D40R keeping the same Preamp, source and Interconnects in the chain.
However when I put back premium A/B amplifiers such Audio Research, Krell Evolutions, Cary Audio Tubes Mons back into the chain. The bass is not that stunning like class D . But the mids and highs are beguiling and 3D still in A/B Amplifiers.
I guess it all has to do with high current availability on demand for those hungry speakers. Class D with their pulse coded current switching technology may not be able to deliver contious current power on demand that music creates and speakers demand .
However you will definitely see the differences in electricity bills class D has from class A/B Amplifiers when driven up in volume and constant current demanded by hungry speaker for high sonic resolution
Nice, we have the St250, st500 and st1000 and really like it. Not as good as the Classe D200 but still good. Have you tried using a tube preamp to go with your st500?
@@ThomasAndStereo
I did use my stock Cary SLP-05 PREAMP. Made in USA and a generic tube preamp made in China with the Wyred4Sound St500. The sound was a little more rounded with depth. But didn't have much texture and timbral nuances to its presentation. However when I connected my Parasound JC2 class A solid state pre amp. There was a sound so deep, wide, high and rich with details, textures, emotions, harmonics . The sound was rich in micro details. It extends my listening to 4 hours at a stretch .
@@burp5097 Ah I see, I wonder if the reason why you hear such a big gap is because the ST500 is entry level compared to Audio research and Krell? If you had a higher end class D in the same MRSP area as the class AB you have, I wonder how would that compare.
The best way to get your hands on some good sounding amps is either by DIY or 2nd hand!
I use a tube pre with my class D amps (Ncore) to add some warmth back to the music. What pre/power combos have you tried with that DIY amp? The Scott? how about the Freya?
Freya is not warm sounding so it depends which Class D amp I pair it with. Ncore seems pretty popular, I should give it a try.
@@ThomasAndStereo I bought Freya+ after watching your video, I just ordered Ncore NC400 Mono blocks waiting for them to ship.
excellent video - thanks :)
Glad you liked it!
You can always add a tube preamp to add bass.
I find adding tube preamp to increase holographic soundstage.
Awesome video Thomas. I'm really interested in this amp. I just don't know what affordable pre-amp would be good with it.
Hmm, something with tubes and warm characteristics.
HI, great video. Will you please do a review of the Focal Kanta 2 or 3 you recently purchased? Thanks a lot!
I'm still listening on my Class A amplifier.
Congrats. Enjoy what you have and that is the most important.
Awesome video mate
Very clear video thank you
Hey Thomas great video . I had a gato dia 250 was very bright in my system . And is class D.
Have you heard bel canto dac 2.7 would like your thoughts on that . Would like you to review Somme piega 40.2 Speakers.
Keep up the good work.
Well, you need something warmer than in the front end, or perhaps your speakers just don't work well with class D. I never heard Bel DACs so no idea, sorry and thanks!
Thanks for this video.
Hi Tom also I paid 800 Canadian for mc10t yagin
In the Crown XLS 1502 there is no lack of bass. Maybe less control of the bass. But that has to do with the design of that amp, and not class D in particular. The Crown sells for about 300 dollars.
Yup, that could be possible. I would say bass is fast and tight with class D. Just not as much weigh compare to a similar class AB with the same output. For example, if the 1502 delivers 200w, you need to compare to a 200w class AB.
Thomas & Stereo The 1502 is actually 300 watts into 8ohm and 525 watts into 4 ohm. And as far as I know there are no similar priced 300 watt class AB amplifier. The crown amp is exceptionally powerful for its price. Hence giving the possibility to give life to hard driven speakers without having to break the bank. Its a nice option for people on a tight budget.
I have a problem believing that DIY class D amp can be high current or high damping factor like old school Adcom or Harman Kardon amplifiers which can be had for less than $300 these days.