As a scientist, I have always been interested in the dynamic accumulator theory, but skeptical. This is an article I read recently about some research being done in my old stomping grounds in central NY. One statement which was interesting was that the research showed that if you plant something like comfrey in really depleted soil, it is not going to magically conjure up large amounts of those missing nutrients from that crappy soil (but of course you can improve that soil by constantly incorporating the plant material into that soil.) However, the plants that do seem to concentrate the minerals that are already in the soil are great for chop and drop and making liquid fertilizer. But again, the science is still limited, it seems to me, although interesting , and does show that some plants are better at sequestering certain minerals than others. For me, like you, the concept of guilds and companion planting opened up many new possibilities for introducing more diversity, productivity and beauty into the garden rather than accomplishing one specific task (companion planting also has some science behind it, but not much). Love the way you are not afraid to tackle these subjects with enthusiasm, but without dogma, and pull folks into the very real, IMHO, advantages of looking through a permaculture lens. Article: smallfarms.cornell.edu/2022/04/new-findings-further-the-study-of-dynamic-accumulators/
I heard that the idea that comfrey's deep tap root pulls nutrients from deep in the ground is a myth. The tap root is more for stability and maybe water and most of the nutrients are pulled in from closer to the surface.
I see guilds more as a way to squeeze more stuff into a smaller area rather than as a "must do" practice. My most productive peach tree isn't in a guild, it's in my chicken run!
I worked briefly in the field of bioremediation (planting specific plants that would sequester the toxic minerals from polluted soil, then digging them up, incinerating them and analyzing their ashes to determine how well they pulled the toxins out of the soil). That's what drew me into permaculture!
We may not have scientific evidence that guilds are miracles but we do have a lot of evidence that monoculture farming is bad. Guilds feel like a great exercise in learning how to grow food away from monoculture thinking, guilds invite us to consider how we can pack in diverse plants with diverse needs and make it both beautiful and practical.
@Ni-dk7ni I take that into account. But I start a lot of plants from seeds, and swap plants with neighbours also, so I hope the budget will not explode. 🤔
...and eventually you can start to divide plants. I was looking out at my peach tree and thinking that I might start a guild around it, primarily because it is such a pain to try and mow around it. My goal is to not have to weed whack as I despise that job. It was planted before I ever knew about permaculture or guilds and it has fallen to the back burner, but this video spurred me on. I have lots of plants that could use dividing, and I'm looking around and thinking that I could really have it be beautiful. I never got too worked up about having each of the parts of a guild and it has been very freeing. Here are the things that I'm thinking about that I have and I can divide: catmint, daffodils, alliums, glory of the snow, snow drops, daylilies, anise hyssop, rhubarb, flax, coneflower, black-eyed susans, lavender, yarrow, and hosta. I might get a low growing aronia for fall color, although primarily I want soft herbaceous stuff. The tree is planted in the center part of my side yard, and to have a beautiful flower garden around it would be lovely. It would add a "soft landing" for the fruit, and would allow easy access for pruning and thinning. It won't have all of the layers, and it won't be all edible or medicinal, but I have enough food crops. Just beauty is good, too.@@d.-beck7205
That was a good meme post and your video reply. I really enjoyed it. I stand by my reply in the meme post. Guilds are basically just a companion plant plan in layers. I also love my fruit tree guilds. ❤😅
Angela, you're great. My attitude between science and "old wives tales" or faith or whatever you want to call it is that there are advantages from either perspective. Building my half acre food forest, I focused on the seven layers rather than what should or should not go together. Here in Virginia we have a lot of clay and a lot of it is compacted. Honestly, I could care less if dynamic accumulators actually mine nutrients. As long as those taproots are doing the backbreaking labor of breaking up the soil, I'm all for it.
Thank you. I understand better. I have an apple tree that I am nearly ready to put in the ground and now I will prepare the ground for a guild instead. How exciting.
I started my journey by looking up what plants I should plant in each guild. Now I just look at where I have "holes" a time of year where nothing is blooming or a plant too short to be seen where it is and make adjustments.
Oh, I didn't know I had a few guilds around my yard. It just felt like a good way of stacking plants. I have an apple and a pear tree with haskap, elderberry and blueberry bushes under, wild strawberries and ramsons as ground cover, some mushrooms in the summer and clover growing in the pathway next to them. In another spot I have an apple tree, blueberry bushes, gooseberry, currants, peonies, clematis and wild strawberries with clover next to it.
@@Lochness19 my elderberry is still young, I suspect it will get big when it gets going but it's about 2-3m from the pear so it will be more of it's own tree when big
Guilds. Infinitely variable, thus very difficult to study. What has been deduced is that a natural forest grows plants in every available niche, that receives sunlight. Walking in a natural forest will show you plants growing at every opportunity. And if there is too much shade from the canopy, less underbrush can grow. Guilds mimic this natural forest by letting us jump start the forest with beneficial to us plants, instead of whatever non-edible or non-useful happen to fill the niches provided. Something is going to try to grow there. So it may as well be useful, right? Will it help the tree? Maybe. Will I still get multiple varied harvests while I'm waiting for my trees to grow? Yes. Will the trees eventually shade out some of the guild? Probably. But change is the only thing that we can guarantee. 😁
My most important guild is around a pear tree. It's the most important because I did it myself, it's beautiful (esp in the spring) and I can see it from my armchair. That connected me with the garden from inside, when resting and reading. And it pulls me out into the garden.
I love your perspective, and find that it's what is lacking so much in permaculture. Things like: - Here's my context and what I desire from a garden. Your context is different. - The fact is there's not much science behind it, but you don't necessarily need science in order to feel good about how you interact with nature and learn from nature. Just don't pass it around as "facts" that "everyone should follow". - Guilds are a great teaching tool. Use them to practice your thinking, not to show off how you're ticking all the boxes from a permaculture book. This is what a good teacher does.
this will be the first year i am adding in "vining" because until this year i was honestly worries they would strangle any of my plants. this year most of my vining layers will probably be beans- for the nitrogen fixing
Here in Hawai’i guilds are indispensable in an environment where orchards starve trees in the greedy grass that forms around trees. I’ve had good success with guilds of coffee, banana and mamaki tea
the need to make a garden beautiful, and accessible!!!! to the gardener is so so important! i need wide walkable areas- i may need a wheelchair eventually, but i cant balance in a narrow path... i need places to sit. if a garden doesnt have ease for me to move around, and places to sit? i wont be out there...
I am ready to start designing and growing my first fruit tree guild, and came across this video,. Thank you so much for your knowledge, enthusiasm, honestly and excellent teaching style.
I assume there’s a bell curve of quality advise and genuine intent. Thanks for being real. I would love to see what’s popping up in your garden. Ex: especially the perennials like sea kale & rhubarb. My perennial kale took a big hit with the February freeze.
My tree collards and perennial kale look good, but only because I covered them for extensive periods. I had a plant in the backyard. I forgot to cover, and it is totally dead from the cold weather.
I'm a big fan of fruit tree guilds, but there are a few important downsides. The guild plants can, in certain instances, compete with the fruit tree for resources. Also, the guild plants can really get in the way when tending to the fruit tree. Thinning, pruning, harvesting and spraying is much more difficult when one has to navigate through a lush planting of guild plants.
as far as i can tell "fruit tree guilds" are both a way of illustrating how many layers are possible/available in your system.. AND companion planting. so, if i was looking to plant around apple trees in MY area, i would be thinking what might deal with apple tree pests, etc
I just did a talk the other day, I used the system of 3 sisters, but added 2 more sisters. sunflowers to bring in more pollinators or climbing structures, but the most important sister (Brother) is the human. Without that human the system does not happen. (It really caused a stir in the audience as they saw how important they were as a Part Of the system.)
Omg! This was a wonderful video. I've been in analysis paralysis wanting to get everything right the first time around. It's hard to do with comflicting information and wanting it to be visually pleasing. I have been released into incorporating some of the concepts while making it make sense for my space restrictions and visually appealing at the same time.
So glad this showed up in my feed today. I love your videos. They are so helpful. This was one I really needed to see/hear today. I get really hung up on not wanting to do things wrong and get some stupid intense anxiety over it. Working on it - very much trauma related - I'm a work in progress. This was the wisdom I needed to hear. Had a moment earlier this evening of feeling like I really love a certain meadowy aesthetic and would love to incorporate some native grasses on the edges of my garden/forest paths. And feeling like doing so would be wrong for so many reasons, yada yada yada. And while yes doing a bunch of grasses probably wouldn't help my end goal, I do feel like putting a few in strategic places would be okay. There will still be plenty of edges/borders to take advantage of.
I love the fact that every new year is a new experiment! Artistry is the honey that makes me love the science when I get something right and can keep doing that. I have two pear trees surrounded by highish mulch walkways, "weeds" beyond. Each guild area is filled with strawberries, vine domestic blackberries, and mint. It's been working well for 3 years now, can't wait to see what this next spring brings!
I’m a designer by trade and I have staked a large part of my life on the principle that design influences behavior. Aesthetics matter because people need joy 🥰
very true! And this is a reason to not only include stepping stones in guilds, but also "steppable" plants or plants you can crush under foot/chop n drop in your guilds. My blueberry can't be in the way of me pear picking, but I can hack down the comfrey to reach fruit and it'll bounce back.
Excellent video! I have come to the same conclusion, but I started out (overenthusiastically) trying to determine why, exactly, the trees I saw in guilds were there. Later on, I threw out that approach and decided to do what made sense to me.
So many spots I wanted to pause and comment, great explanation of design I hope others get to see this so they can understand what fun it is to make the garden beautiful so you can get back down there and wanting to plan for next year! Or divide the plants you have and contribute to diversifying the plant population. We've had these wild garden roses for yeeeeears and they are SO happy! And they are different now from other roses, they just changed colors this year. Dad just sticks a stick in the ground now and they sprout right back up. We should start selling them soon. Maybe i can send you a sprout Angela
I am really glad this is your perspective. I haven’t been practicing permaculture nearly as long, but I have been treating guilds as a loose set of ideals rather than rules. An aside question : how do you feel about using neem oil as a spray in the garden? I have seen a couple mentions that it really hasn’t been studied and could cause harm to pollinators and beneficial insects
I've never had any luck with it. This year, I'm going to try spraying whey as a fungal control (see video by Stefan S.) and his idea of using molasses to draw codling moths and yellow and red bullseye for attracting apple maggot flies.
I also use permaculture as a design system or as teaching modules. They help people see how plants can work in small spaces. I too love science (Heck, I am a Master Gardener and we are required to offer only science-based gardening info.) I use the systems as suggestions etc. I am trying to say I agree with you. Whatever helps folks grow more food/plants, enjoy it more and be successful. That is my goal. To bring more folks over to 'the green side' in my progress towards world domination (lol, jk but I do want folks to garden more--then sneakily they see that the diversity can spill over into real life outside the garden.)
Thank you. This is such a great explanation of so many concepts, including guilds, permaculture as a design concept and the use of patterns within different contexts. I think it's also worth considering the energy benefits of gardens based upon the pattern of natural forests. They don't need mowing and if plants are chosen well, they need very little pruning. As you already know, permaculture is about getting the greatest result for the least energy (and this principle is why I prefer the Mollison set to the Holmgren set) and planting in this way gives us a very energy efficient way to produce a lot of food, particularly when compared to raised metal beds filled with imported soil and annuals. I also think it's worth remembering that the more intensively we can produce food, the more land we free up for all of the other forms of life that share the planet, and this protection and preservation of wild places is the ultimate goal of permaculture: Earth care is first for a reason. Thank you for your channel. I've only just found it and expect that's the rest of my day gone :D
The silliest guild I have seen is a single corn plant with a bean plant and a squash. You need to know how plants grow and are pollinated. Corn is wind pollinated so it should be planted in blocks so the wind can move the pollen around the patch. Bees also really like corn pollen so keep the plants together to assist bees in gathering pollen. They will also pollinate but less so if the plants are far apart.
Great job walking the fine line! Anecdotal evidence has been keeping people fed for 1000's of years. That is fact. Like you I love science, I have a fair bit of science back ground and I will look for the science when available, but it is not the be all, to end all for me either. I come from an English back ground and my grandmother's garden was a cornucopia of textures, colours, and food sources. It was all there, mixed together in a very English garden style aesthetic. Reproducing it was all I ever wanted for my own garden. She was practicing the diversity aspect of permaculture, without even giving it thought. last year, I filled my garden with little gem marigolds to try keeping cabbage butterfly at bay. It was hard to tell if it helped. I did get cabbages, etc and there were holes, but the joy of all that red bloom, and the scent of walking through it, priceless. So while I know putting my cabbages in a row and using remay cloth would be more preventative, like you said, there wouldn't be the same level of joy. I saved seed and will be growing red gems again this year.
This is Year 3 of my gardening life. The thing I see a lot out of so many people is hearsay and dogmatic thinking. I think people need to lean on science as much as they can, but they also have to be flexible and observant. I appreciate your thoughts on this! This is also the first time I've ever heard of guilds, so I have a new idea to explore.
@Ni-dk7ni Kind of? There's a lot of "see something, panic" which then leads to an internet search and access to reams of 'he said, she said' Gardening Edition. Pick a common problem, like blossom end rot, and you see tums and crushed egg shells and whatever else...When it's often just a watering issue. So many aren't actually engaging with their observations, they just seek instant relief of a thing they witnessed.
I want to bring up a point that seems to have been missed. Plants produce root exudates. These are like food to the biological life in the soil. There has to be something around your tree, whether it be dirt, mulch, weeds, or companion plants.. we all know bare dirt is the worst option. By mulching and planting companion plants that don’t compete on the same level we fill in that void... not only does this discourage weeds, but it increases the density of biological activity. The forest prioritizes coexistence over competition. I’ve never seen a giant tree in the forest that didn’t have a vine or plant growing in its shared soil. Trees thrive in communities. The tipping point comes in planting two things that compete for the same growing space. Hence why the layers have been invented and taught. The layers give us a guide to which plants can coexist
Angela. Make moldy coffee and drink 1 cup a day. Tina, my wife, has used this trick for years. How to make moldy coffee grounds: put 2 tablespoons of distilled water in a tin, 1 lb, of coffee grounds. Place in a warm spot, top and back of fridg, for a few weeks. Use as needed. This will not eliminate migraines but it wil help prevent hemiplegic migrains. It takes about 6 months to work. Drink two or three times a week after 3 months. After 6 months drink 1 cup a week. Store in fridge when moldy.
Hi there! I just found you. I want very much to grow black currents in Southern California but can't seem to find any info on them. Do you know if they can be grown in my area please? Love your channel and am subscribing ❤
Hey Angela, you,make several interesting points in this video. I like that you point out that using scientific data is important but also the artistry of self choice and enjoyment which contributes to maintaining the entirety. To be honest I find it ridiculous that anyone would think that guilds are bad in any way compared to having them. I wish you would may explain mrke about those other sustainable agriculture systems than Permaculture itself? Also what are those herb spirals about? I will view the video but 1 sentence in the video would have been nice ). Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
The folks on the NAFEX page on FB have been discussing after I asked what people co-plant with their fruit trees. Lots of good plants, but also folks saying the science says anything within 2’ of the trunk is competition and negatively impacts the tree. I don’t really care about the science on this. I like the way it tends to look, and I like getting so many plants in relatively small space. Related question: anyone have experience letting horseradish live under your fruit trees? Like, not even harvesting it? I have so many roots from 1 year of growth I’m tucking them everywhere in my orchard with no desire to harvest. My poultry love the greens and I have plants to harvest for the kitchen in the garden.
Since i water ( rain and sink water) berries under my trees, and don’t water the few freestanding ones, i think the ’guilds’ help the trees, lol. Horseradish could deter some pests. The high sulphur might be bad for michryzal fungus. No advice, just things to think about
I like the idea of guilds. I’ve recently planted over 10 fruit trees in my front yard and backyard. I’m going freestyle in my planting strategy. Just going to wing it. Everything from apricots to plums to Peaches. Let’s see what happens. Thanks as always.
For migraines try out huge amount of potassium to balance out the sodium (unless you have kidney problems.. - it may affect your heart seriously if you do)
What I've always wondered is how you plant all these things close to the roots of the tree? Don't the roots interfere with the planting of everything else? In an arid climate, where plants don't live unless they're irrigated, how do you irrigate that many plants so close together?
All the research I have seen, given the majority is in crop farming so not a direct comparison, shows a decrease in marketable production (typically less fruit) but an increase in total biomass pre acre when you grow plants together. I'll note it appears (anecdotal evidence) as the variety of plants increase the biomass also increases, i.e. a 20 seed mix will grow more biomass than a 10 seed mix and such. This would suggest a tree guild will increase the total biomass you get from an area but decrease the amount of production of any one plant. Personally, that's a trade off I'm willing to make, more biomass is more I can chop and drop to improve the soil. But if I had a larger family, or was just starting, lower levels of production is something I would at least think about.
What interests me somehow: a very traditional way of growing fruit trees was an orchard, with only a flowery meadow underneath it. Maybe cut twice a year; but usually the hens were there or sheep would gras on it. Only one level. Plus it used to be communal land, in communitarian use ... during privatization of everything and everything we almost lost knowledge of this practice. Why people did not plant more stuff under fruit trees in earlier times? Am deeply convinced that they had better knowledge than we nowadays. And the other way round: could permaculture be wrong about planting so much stuff and layers directly under trees ?
As she mentions in the video, fruit tree guilds are mostly used on small scale projects. On a large scale project you can apply the same permaculture principles in a broader way. Small scale projects also typically don't implement all 5 zones since you don't have room to meaningfully create a pasture or wildlife preserve on a suburban sized lot. So instead they focus on implementing the lower-numbered zones, which are visited more often and more intensively managed. It would be very inconvenient for a traditional person to have to walk all the way to a fruit tree guild in a communal pasture in order to get herbs to cook dinner. Instead they would plant it near the house (zone 1), as would any permaculturist. The traditional person can put their fruit trees in zone 4, the pasture. The suburbanite permie doesn't have enough space to have a zone 4, so they have to find room for their fruit trees in a lower-numbered zone.
Came for the permaculture but oh my goodness thank you for the recommendation for migraine botox as I am on day 5 of what I think is hemiplegic migraine...
also, this explanation is beautifully and thoughtfully argued. So much of what is taught in a PDC (herb spirals, guilds) is there because they are marvellous teaching tools which embody principles and observation and understanding about canopy levels and moisture levels and plant growth styles and functions.... However, if they are taught as The Permaculture they just get learnt that way and replicated.
Botox improved my quality of life so so so much. I failed 3 other meds and have nerve damage on the left side of my face from HM. and I'm so grateful this treatment has come about. I hope you find relief for yours.
Does anyone know if there has been any research into wether guilds, and different types of guilds, are beneficial from a production, pest/disease management,nutrient utilisation perspective compared to traditional agricultural practices?
I have not found any peer reviewed research on those subjects using any of the academic search engines I have available to me. I wish there were. And if someone can find them please please share because I really want to read.
In the sense that it keeps the ground covered which, in turn, holds moisture in and prevents "weeds", I think it's better. Also, we have lots of burrowing animals like moles, so planting garlic and daffodils go a long way to helping with that issue. I think that flowers do help attract pollinators, as well. I am leery of planting shrubs that are rigid around a fruit tree that I'll want to harvest, and tend to use soft plantings. I would also place things like stepping stones for entry.
Guilds is just a fancy word for emulating a natural (woodland) ecosystem. Without interference or disturbance, 'guilds' would establish themselves spontaneously anyway, just not with the plants the gardener per se would desire.
You can try to make these Scientific Experiments yourself though, can't you? Like why not? :) If you do it with the scientific method (keeping all variables the same and comparing just one change) it will be a valid contribution!
As a scientist, I have always been interested in the dynamic accumulator theory, but skeptical. This is an article I read recently about some research being done in my old stomping grounds in central NY. One statement which was interesting was that the research showed that if you plant something like comfrey in really depleted soil, it is not going to magically conjure up large amounts of those missing nutrients from that crappy soil (but of course you can improve that soil by constantly incorporating the plant material into that soil.) However, the plants that do seem to concentrate the minerals that are already in the soil are great for chop and drop and making liquid fertilizer. But again, the science is still limited, it seems to me, although interesting , and does show that some plants are better at sequestering certain minerals than others. For me, like you, the concept of guilds and companion planting opened up many new possibilities for introducing more diversity, productivity and beauty into the garden rather than accomplishing one specific task (companion planting also has some science behind it, but not much). Love the way you are not afraid to tackle these subjects with enthusiasm, but without dogma, and pull folks into the very real, IMHO, advantages of looking through a permaculture lens.
Article: smallfarms.cornell.edu/2022/04/new-findings-further-the-study-of-dynamic-accumulators/
A friend of mine from college did a study about Comfrey that was pretty interesting but I hadn’t seen any others. Thanks for sharing this.
I heard that the idea that comfrey's deep tap root pulls nutrients from deep in the ground is a myth. The tap root is more for stability and maybe water and most of the nutrients are pulled in from closer to the surface.
Have you looked into the supposed effect of cannabis on the soil and surrounding area?
I see guilds more as a way to squeeze more stuff into a smaller area rather than as a "must do" practice. My most productive peach tree isn't in a guild, it's in my chicken run!
Good to know! I thought only a mulberry could handle that much nitrogen!
Good to hear! I have a baby peach in my chicken run too!
It's a slightly more developed Companion Planting.
That's lovely!
I worked briefly in the field of bioremediation (planting specific plants that would sequester the toxic minerals from polluted soil, then digging them up, incinerating them and analyzing their ashes to determine how well they pulled the toxins out of the soil). That's what drew me into permaculture!
We may not have scientific evidence that guilds are miracles but we do have a lot of evidence that monoculture farming is bad. Guilds feel like a great exercise in learning how to grow food away from monoculture thinking, guilds invite us to consider how we can pack in diverse plants with diverse needs and make it both beautiful and practical.
"It's not a fine tuned science, it's an art" ... LOVE that. It is so freeing for a garden newbie like me. ❤
@Ni-dk7ni I take that into account. But I start a lot of plants from seeds, and swap plants with neighbours also, so I hope the budget will not explode. 🤔
...and eventually you can start to divide plants. I was looking out at my peach tree and thinking that I might start a guild around it, primarily because it is such a pain to try and mow around it. My goal is to not have to weed whack as I despise that job. It was planted before I ever knew about permaculture or guilds and it has fallen to the back burner, but this video spurred me on. I have lots of plants that could use dividing, and I'm looking around and thinking that I could really have it be beautiful. I never got too worked up about having each of the parts of a guild and it has been very freeing. Here are the things that I'm thinking about that I have and I can divide: catmint, daffodils, alliums, glory of the snow, snow drops, daylilies, anise hyssop, rhubarb, flax, coneflower, black-eyed susans, lavender, yarrow, and hosta. I might get a low growing aronia for fall color, although primarily I want soft herbaceous stuff. The tree is planted in the center part of my side yard, and to have a beautiful flower garden around it would be lovely. It would add a "soft landing" for the fruit, and would allow easy access for pruning and thinning. It won't have all of the layers, and it won't be all edible or medicinal, but I have enough food crops. Just beauty is good, too.@@d.-beck7205
@@barbarasimoes9463 Nice! Yes, dividing is on my list too.
That was a good meme post and your video reply. I really enjoyed it. I stand by my reply in the meme post. Guilds are basically just a companion plant plan in layers. I also love my fruit tree guilds. ❤😅
Angela, you're great. My attitude between science and "old wives tales" or faith or whatever you want to call it is that there are advantages from either perspective. Building my half acre food forest, I focused on the seven layers rather than what should or should not go together. Here in Virginia we have a lot of clay and a lot of it is compacted. Honestly, I could care less if dynamic accumulators actually mine nutrients. As long as those taproots are doing the backbreaking labor of breaking up the soil, I'm all for it.
Interesting perspective!
Thank you. I understand better. I have an apple tree that I am nearly ready to put in the ground and now I will prepare the ground for a guild instead. How exciting.
I started my journey by looking up what plants I should plant in each guild. Now I just look at where I have "holes" a time of year where nothing is blooming or a plant too short to be seen where it is and make adjustments.
Oh, I didn't know I had a few guilds around my yard. It just felt like a good way of stacking plants. I have an apple and a pear tree with haskap, elderberry and blueberry bushes under, wild strawberries and ramsons as ground cover, some mushrooms in the summer and clover growing in the pathway next to them. In another spot I have an apple tree, blueberry bushes, gooseberry, currants, peonies, clematis and wild strawberries with clover next to it.
Does elderberry get too large to be under a pear tree? Or do you prune it to a small size.
@@Lochness19 my elderberry is still young, I suspect it will get big when it gets going but it's about 2-3m from the pear so it will be more of it's own tree when big
Guilds. Infinitely variable, thus very difficult to study.
What has been deduced is that a natural forest grows plants in every available niche, that receives sunlight.
Walking in a natural forest will show you plants growing at every opportunity. And if there is too much shade from the canopy, less underbrush can grow.
Guilds mimic this natural forest by letting us jump start the forest with beneficial to us plants, instead of whatever non-edible or non-useful happen to fill the niches provided.
Something is going to try to grow there. So it may as well be useful, right?
Will it help the tree? Maybe. Will I still get multiple varied harvests while I'm waiting for my trees to grow? Yes. Will the trees eventually shade out some of the guild? Probably. But change is the only thing that we can guarantee. 😁
My most important guild is around a pear tree. It's the most important because I did it myself, it's beautiful (esp in the spring) and I can see it from my armchair. That connected me with the garden from inside, when resting and reading. And it pulls me out into the garden.
I love your perspective, and find that it's what is lacking so much in permaculture. Things like:
- Here's my context and what I desire from a garden. Your context is different.
- The fact is there's not much science behind it, but you don't necessarily need science in order to feel good about how you interact with nature and learn from nature. Just don't pass it around as "facts" that "everyone should follow".
- Guilds are a great teaching tool. Use them to practice your thinking, not to show off how you're ticking all the boxes from a permaculture book.
This is what a good teacher does.
this will be the first year i am adding in "vining" because until this year i was honestly worries they would strangle any of my plants. this year most of my vining layers will probably be beans- for the nitrogen fixing
Here in Hawai’i guilds are indispensable in an environment where orchards starve trees in the greedy grass that forms around trees. I’ve had good success with guilds of coffee, banana and mamaki tea
the need to make a garden beautiful, and accessible!!!! to the gardener is so so important! i need wide walkable areas- i may need a wheelchair eventually, but i cant balance in a narrow path... i need places to sit. if a garden doesnt have ease for me to move around, and places to sit? i wont be out there...
I am ready to start designing and growing my first fruit tree guild, and came across this video,. Thank you so much for your knowledge, enthusiasm, honestly and excellent teaching style.
I assume there’s a bell curve of quality advise and genuine intent. Thanks for being real. I would love to see what’s popping up in your garden. Ex: especially the perennials like sea kale & rhubarb. My perennial kale took a big hit with the February freeze.
My tree collards and perennial kale look good, but only because I covered them for extensive periods. I had a plant in the backyard. I forgot to cover, and it is totally dead from the cold weather.
I'm a big fan of fruit tree guilds, but there are a few important downsides. The guild plants can, in certain instances, compete with the fruit tree for resources. Also, the guild plants can really get in the way when tending to the fruit tree. Thinning, pruning, harvesting and spraying is much more difficult when one has to navigate through a lush planting of guild plants.
as far as i can tell "fruit tree guilds" are both a way of illustrating how many layers are possible/available in your system.. AND companion planting.
so, if i was looking to plant around apple trees in MY area, i would be thinking what might deal with apple tree pests, etc
I just did a talk the other day, I used the system of 3 sisters, but added 2 more sisters. sunflowers to bring in more pollinators or climbing structures, but the most important sister (Brother) is the human. Without that human the system does not happen. (It really caused a stir in the audience as they saw how important they were as a Part Of the system.)
My ex suffered from Migraines. His meds made him very sleepy. Glad you found a good treatment.
Would LOVE dynamic accumulator video. I just bought two comfrey plants
Omg! This was a wonderful video. I've been in analysis paralysis wanting to get everything right the first time around. It's hard to do with comflicting information and wanting it to be visually pleasing.
I have been released into incorporating some of the concepts while making it make sense for my space restrictions and visually appealing at the same time.
So glad this showed up in my feed today. I love your videos. They are so helpful. This was one I really needed to see/hear today. I get really hung up on not wanting to do things wrong and get some stupid intense anxiety over it. Working on it - very much trauma related - I'm a work in progress. This was the wisdom I needed to hear. Had a moment earlier this evening of feeling like I really love a certain meadowy aesthetic and would love to incorporate some native grasses on the edges of my garden/forest paths. And feeling like doing so would be wrong for so many reasons, yada yada yada. And while yes doing a bunch of grasses probably wouldn't help my end goal, I do feel like putting a few in strategic places would be okay. There will still be plenty of edges/borders to take advantage of.
I love the fact that every new year is a new experiment! Artistry is the honey that makes me love the science when I get something right and can keep doing that. I have two pear trees surrounded by highish mulch walkways, "weeds" beyond. Each guild area is filled with strawberries, vine domestic blackberries, and mint. It's been working well for 3 years now, can't wait to see what this next spring brings!
I’m a designer by trade and I have staked a large part of my life on the principle that design influences behavior. Aesthetics matter because people need joy 🥰
One issue I have with guilds is how hard it can make harvesting the fruit off the tree because of negotiating around other plants.
very true! And this is a reason to not only include stepping stones in guilds, but also "steppable" plants or plants you can crush under foot/chop n drop in your guilds. My blueberry can't be in the way of me pear picking, but I can hack down the comfrey to reach fruit and it'll bounce back.
Great video!
Excellent video! I have come to the same conclusion, but I started out (overenthusiastically) trying to determine why, exactly, the trees I saw in guilds were there. Later on, I threw out that approach and decided to do what made sense to me.
So many spots I wanted to pause and comment, great explanation of design I hope others get to see this so they can understand what fun it is to make the garden beautiful so you can get back down there and wanting to plan for next year! Or divide the plants you have and contribute to diversifying the plant population. We've had these wild garden roses for yeeeeears and they are SO happy! And they are different now from other roses, they just changed colors this year. Dad just sticks a stick in the ground now and they sprout right back up. We should start selling them soon. Maybe i can send you a sprout Angela
I am really glad this is your perspective. I haven’t been practicing permaculture nearly as long, but I have been treating guilds as a loose set of ideals rather than rules. An aside question : how do you feel about using neem oil as a spray in the garden? I have seen a couple mentions that it really hasn’t been studied and could cause harm to pollinators and beneficial insects
I've never had any luck with it. This year, I'm going to try spraying whey as a fungal control (see video by Stefan S.) and his idea of using molasses to draw codling moths and yellow and red bullseye for attracting apple maggot flies.
I only have strawberries chive and day Lily under my plum tree and all of them are happy. This year im going to add some cornflower and nasturtium
I also use permaculture as a design system or as teaching modules. They help people see how plants can work in small spaces. I too love science (Heck, I am a Master Gardener and we are required to offer only science-based gardening info.)
I use the systems as suggestions etc. I am trying to say I agree with you.
Whatever helps folks grow more food/plants, enjoy it more and be successful. That is my goal. To bring more folks over to 'the green side' in my progress towards world domination (lol, jk but I do want folks to garden more--then sneakily they see that the diversity can spill over into real life outside the garden.)
Thank you. This is such a great explanation of so many concepts, including guilds, permaculture as a design concept and the use of patterns within different contexts. I think it's also worth considering the energy benefits of gardens based upon the pattern of natural forests. They don't need mowing and if plants are chosen well, they need very little pruning. As you already know, permaculture is about getting the greatest result for the least energy (and this principle is why I prefer the Mollison set to the Holmgren set) and planting in this way gives us a very energy efficient way to produce a lot of food, particularly when compared to raised metal beds filled with imported soil and annuals. I also think it's worth remembering that the more intensively we can produce food, the more land we free up for all of the other forms of life that share the planet, and this protection and preservation of wild places is the ultimate goal of permaculture: Earth care is first for a reason.
Thank you for your channel. I've only just found it and expect that's the rest of my day gone :D
The silliest guild I have seen is a single corn plant with a bean plant and a squash. You need to know how plants grow and are pollinated. Corn is wind pollinated so it should be planted in blocks so the wind can move the pollen around the patch. Bees also really like corn pollen so keep the plants together to assist bees in gathering pollen. They will also pollinate but less so if the plants are far apart.
The corn is not far appart in the 3 sisters guild.24 inch is common even in commercial ag
@@TheEmbrioHe did say a single corn plant.
Enjoyed the video and found the information useful.
Great job walking the fine line! Anecdotal evidence has been keeping people fed for 1000's of years. That is fact.
Like you I love science, I have a fair bit of science back ground and I will look for the science when available, but it is not the be all, to end all for me either.
I come from an English back ground and my grandmother's garden was a cornucopia of textures, colours, and food sources. It was all there, mixed together in a very English garden style aesthetic. Reproducing it was all I ever wanted for my own garden. She was practicing the diversity aspect of permaculture, without even giving it thought.
last year, I filled my garden with little gem marigolds to try keeping cabbage butterfly at bay. It was hard to tell if it helped. I did get cabbages, etc and there were holes, but the joy of all that red bloom, and the scent of walking through it, priceless. So while I know putting my cabbages in a row and using remay cloth would be more preventative, like you said, there wouldn't be the same level of joy. I saved seed and will be growing red gems again this year.
This is Year 3 of my gardening life. The thing I see a lot out of so many people is hearsay and dogmatic thinking.
I think people need to lean on science as much as they can, but they also have to be flexible and observant.
I appreciate your thoughts on this! This is also the first time I've ever heard of guilds, so I have a new idea to explore.
@Ni-dk7ni Kind of? There's a lot of "see something, panic" which then leads to an internet search and access to reams of 'he said, she said' Gardening Edition. Pick a common problem, like blossom end rot, and you see tums and crushed egg shells and whatever else...When it's often just a watering issue.
So many aren't actually engaging with their observations, they just seek instant relief of a thing they witnessed.
I want to bring up a point that seems to have been missed. Plants produce root exudates. These are like food to the biological life in the soil. There has to be something around your tree, whether it be dirt, mulch, weeds, or companion plants.. we all know bare dirt is the worst option. By mulching and planting companion plants that don’t compete on the same level we fill in that void... not only does this discourage weeds, but it increases the density of biological activity. The forest prioritizes coexistence over competition. I’ve never seen a giant tree in the forest that didn’t have a vine or plant growing in its shared soil. Trees thrive in communities. The tipping point comes in planting two things that compete for the same growing space. Hence why the layers have been invented and taught. The layers give us a guide to which plants can coexist
Hi! Here in Texas I am highly motivated to make guilds because it it so important to keep the soil cool.
Angela. Make moldy coffee and drink 1 cup a day. Tina, my wife, has used this trick for years. How to make moldy coffee grounds: put 2 tablespoons of distilled water in a tin, 1 lb, of coffee grounds. Place in a warm spot, top and back of fridg, for a few weeks. Use as needed. This will not eliminate migraines but it wil help prevent hemiplegic migrains. It takes about 6 months to work. Drink two or three times a week after 3 months. After 6 months drink 1 cup a week. Store in fridge when moldy.
Hi there! I just found you. I want very much to grow black currents in Southern California but can't seem to find any info on them. Do you know if they can be grown in my area please? Love your channel and am subscribing ❤
Hey Angela, you,make several interesting points in this video.
I like that you point out that using scientific data is important but also the artistry of self choice and enjoyment which contributes to maintaining the entirety.
To be honest I find it ridiculous that anyone would think that guilds are bad in any way compared to having them.
I wish you would may explain mrke about those other sustainable agriculture systems than Permaculture itself?
Also what are those herb spirals about? I will view the video but 1 sentence in the video would have been nice ).
Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
The folks on the NAFEX page on FB have been discussing after I asked what people co-plant with their fruit trees. Lots of good plants, but also folks saying the science says anything within 2’ of the trunk is competition and negatively impacts the tree. I don’t really care about the science on this. I like the way it tends to look, and I like getting so many plants in relatively small space. Related question: anyone have experience letting horseradish live under your fruit trees? Like, not even harvesting it? I have so many roots from 1 year of growth I’m tucking them everywhere in my orchard with no desire to harvest. My poultry love the greens and I have plants to harvest for the kitchen in the garden.
Since i water ( rain and sink water) berries under my trees, and don’t water the few freestanding ones, i think the ’guilds’ help the trees, lol. Horseradish could deter some pests. The high sulphur might be bad for michryzal fungus. No advice, just things to think about
Well said. I totally agree
I like the idea of guilds. I’ve recently planted over 10 fruit trees in my front yard and backyard. I’m going freestyle in my planting strategy. Just going to wing it. Everything from apricots to plums to Peaches. Let’s see what happens. Thanks as always.
For migraines try out huge amount of potassium to balance out the sodium (unless you have kidney problems.. - it may affect your heart seriously if you do)
What I've always wondered is how you plant all these things close to the roots of the tree? Don't the roots interfere with the planting of everything else? In an arid climate, where plants don't live unless they're irrigated, how do you irrigate that many plants so close together?
I am so happy about the Botox treatment! Those nerve pain things are terrifying!
All the research I have seen, given the majority is in crop farming so not a direct comparison, shows a decrease in marketable production (typically less fruit) but an increase in total biomass pre acre when you grow plants together. I'll note it appears (anecdotal evidence) as the variety of plants increase the biomass also increases, i.e. a 20 seed mix will grow more biomass than a 10 seed mix and such.
This would suggest a tree guild will increase the total biomass you get from an area but decrease the amount of production of any one plant.
Personally, that's a trade off I'm willing to make, more biomass is more I can chop and drop to improve the soil. But if I had a larger family, or was just starting, lower levels of production is something I would at least think about.
What is the issue with having food security?
Why not get rewarded for the value you provide utilizing permaculture?
What interests me somehow: a very traditional way of growing fruit trees was an orchard, with only a flowery meadow underneath it. Maybe cut twice a year; but usually the hens were there or sheep would gras on it. Only one level. Plus it used to be communal land, in communitarian use ... during privatization of everything and everything we almost lost knowledge of this practice. Why people did not plant more stuff under fruit trees in earlier times? Am deeply convinced that they had better knowledge than we nowadays. And the other way round: could permaculture be wrong about planting so much stuff and layers directly under trees ?
As she mentions in the video, fruit tree guilds are mostly used on small scale projects. On a large scale project you can apply the same permaculture principles in a broader way. Small scale projects also typically don't implement all 5 zones since you don't have room to meaningfully create a pasture or wildlife preserve on a suburban sized lot. So instead they focus on implementing the lower-numbered zones, which are visited more often and more intensively managed. It would be very inconvenient for a traditional person to have to walk all the way to a fruit tree guild in a communal pasture in order to get herbs to cook dinner. Instead they would plant it near the house (zone 1), as would any permaculturist. The traditional person can put their fruit trees in zone 4, the pasture. The suburbanite permie doesn't have enough space to have a zone 4, so they have to find room for their fruit trees in a lower-numbered zone.
@@plutonic404 Thx for taking the time and your long, knowledgable answer!
Subscribed ❤
While stacking plants is certainly more effective than planting them separately I don't think "guilds" are a thing.
Came for the permaculture but oh my goodness thank you for the recommendation for migraine botox as I am on day 5 of what I think is hemiplegic migraine...
also, this explanation is beautifully and thoughtfully argued. So much of what is taught in a PDC (herb spirals, guilds) is there because they are marvellous teaching tools which embody principles and observation and understanding about canopy levels and moisture levels and plant growth styles and functions.... However, if they are taught as The Permaculture they just get learnt that way and replicated.
Botox improved my quality of life so so so much. I failed 3 other meds and have nerve damage on the left side of my face from HM. and I'm so grateful this treatment has come about. I hope you find relief for yours.
Does anyone know if there has been any research into wether guilds, and different types of guilds, are beneficial from a production, pest/disease management,nutrient utilisation perspective compared to traditional agricultural practices?
I have not found any peer reviewed research on those subjects using any of the academic search engines I have available to me. I wish there were. And if someone can find them please please share because I really want to read.
In the sense that it keeps the ground covered which, in turn, holds moisture in and prevents "weeds", I think it's better. Also, we have lots of burrowing animals like moles, so planting garlic and daffodils go a long way to helping with that issue. I think that flowers do help attract pollinators, as well. I am leery of planting shrubs that are rigid around a fruit tree that I'll want to harvest, and tend to use soft plantings. I would also place things like stepping stones for entry.
Guilds is just a fancy word for emulating a natural (woodland) ecosystem. Without interference or disturbance, 'guilds' would establish themselves spontaneously anyway, just not with the plants the gardener per se would desire.
Me googling tree guild during the adds
I started by talking to a spider plant ❤
You can try to make these Scientific Experiments yourself though, can't you? Like why not? :) If you do it with the scientific method (keeping all variables the same and comparing just one change) it will be a valid contribution!
OH! you get botox for migraines too? waves!