Great presentation, and 100% should happen. So much growth happening in the area but public transport is falling behind. This would solve a lot of issues.
As an ex employee of NSW rail 1972 to 79 it breaks my heart to know how many lines have closed or are only freight lines. Government entries were once a service by the people for the people. Rail, Post Office, which also ran our phone service. I am all for reopening these lines if needed.
I know quite a lot of people who are moving to areas like Kurri Kurri and Cessnock but still work in Sydney. This area is one of the largest areas of growth in the regions. And having the train line open will create more healthier TOD development compared to the Suburban development being built in floodplains. And with that, extend it to Bellbird and Millfield, and electrify the line for not just passenger trains, but bi-mode locomotives for freight! It'd also allow for at least a daily express service to Sydney too! And I know that it DESPREATLY needs a new line! Thanks so much for raising and supporting this! I've been advocating for years but often get pushed down whenever I move my mouth, so thank you!
Thanks for the support! If I were the one leading this project, I'd almost certainly agree that all you've said should be done. I'm not sure there'd be a need for freight along the line, but you never know. I've also noticed that there's been more people talking about this in the past few years, and now that the government is looking into it, it might happen. So we'll both be able to prove those nay sayers wrong!
Just how long a train journey would it be from Cessnock to Sydney ??? Cessnock to Maitland 30 minutes, Maitland to Hamilton 30 minutes, Hamilton to Sydney 2hours 30 minutes, so a person is traveling for 3-1/2 hours. Same person drives from Cessnock to Morisset, easy 30 minutes, then by train from Morisset to Sydney 1 hour 40 minutes, total 2 hours 10 minutes Why would a person travel from Cessnock via Maitland, when it's quicker via Morisset???
Have you any idea as to how much it costs to power an electric locomotive, that why freight trains use diesel locomotives. The taxpayer pays for the electricity that powers passenger trains, the price of a ticket does not come anywhere near the cost, that's why their not privately owned, you think that your electricity bills are high ,you would not to pay for an electric locomotive just standing still, let alone when powering. I've driven them and been there when testing them, they are not cheap to operate.
As I understand things the line to Cessnock was privately owned. I had a friend who used it up to 1967 tp travel to Newcastle as a student. He was a mile from the station at either end of the journey and he always said…..it takes less time to ride my bike !!! The steelworks used to run private buses from the B H P to Cessnock which was probably illegal at the time. But the buses were probably a charter which may have eased the legal situation. As Joanne Mitchel sang…..”You don’t know what you’ve got ‘til it’s gone…….they paved paradise and put up a parking lot!!!
As a resident of the Maitland area, I like your proposals, but I'd consider another alternative, as part of a more ambitious upgrade of the entire Hunter line. Electrification of the main Hunter Line (at least as far as Maitland, but ideally to Singleton) would free up existing rolling stock for the Maitland to Cessnock branch line (and possibly increase services on the existing branch line to Dungog) and increase the capacity of the main line. Of course this would mean an increased cost for the project as a whole, but would mean a cost reduction for the branch line as only new/upgraded stations and passing loops would be required.
Honestly, I agree. If I were proposing a more radical plan, I would probably propose exactly what you've just said. My focus was more on a mininum viable service. But the Hunter is going to need something better within the next 50 years, and electrification should be a priority imo.
Should have put the new interchange at Broadmeadow and then electrified and routed trains from Sydney out for first stop at Waratah then on to Maitland. Then as you said here. Inconvenience for folks going into Newcastle proper offset by extra stops at Islington and Wickham.
@@joshiguana Extending the light rail to Broadmeadow (and beyond) should be a no brainer. Then the interchange at Broadmeadow would have made sense. How long till they want even more and do cut the heavy back to Broadmeadow? Newcastle/The Hunter really needs to become marginal seats then they will get all this and more. LOL
In Queensland the train to Townsville 1361 km is electric. And a lot of the coal trains are electric, 1 loco for 16,000 tone. Sad part they should have gone wide gague in Qld as narrow gauge won't suport double deck passenger service. Our suburban network is at breaking point.
@@johnblyth9787 The North Coast line is only electric as far as Rockhampton, you need a very long extension cord to get to Townsville. There is a route from Gladstone through to Mackay that is electricfied via the Coalfields, but much longer in disntance, and you still need that extension cord
The most recent example of this thinking was the closure of the heavy rail connection between Hamilton (Wickham) to Newcastle Station by Gladys Binchicken. This was a travesty on all levels and this smelt of corruption when the initial proposal was put forward. Passenger numbers had nothing to do with the closure as "other" low patronage stations stay open, i.e., Wondabyne and Bell to name a couple off the top of my head.
@robertcoleman4861 I agree with you. The state government should understand that areas such as Cessnock will grow population wise in the future. It makes sense to reinstate the line to Cessnock in the future.
We lived in West Cessnock. The coal was hauled by steam locomotives until the early 1980s. One of my fondest memories is of listening to the steam trains trying to gain traction on the icy rails in the middle of winter with the chuff-chuffing speeding up and slowing down as the wheels slipped and then gained purchase on the rails. Knowing that the coal was then hauled to Newcastle I often wondered why trains weren't available for passengers as well. Obviously the tracks were still there. As a teenager I took the Rover Motors bus to Newcastle on several occasions and it was definitely a very slow journey. From memory, the bus went via Maitland. With Cessnock's expanding population and with sky-rocketing fuel prices there might well be enough passenger potential to restart a Cessnock to Newcastle rail service. Certainly worth a feasibility study.
Information for those not in the know, when South Maitland Railways had their own railcars built they were more powerful and faster than the New South Wales Government Railways trains.
Cessnock is a larger and more populated city than Bunbury in WA, yet Bunbury has a dedicated two return trains a day to Perth. I moved to perth from Cessnock over 30 years ago. The WA government had tried shutting down all its passenger rail but professor Newman from Curtin University was instrumental in getting trains reinstated (after the Court government closed the Fremantle line) when a change of government occurred. Since those dark transport days, there's been a revival in rail transit here in Perth that has seen a doubling of the size of the metropolitan network. Build it, maintain it and people will use it. Perth has a fantastic train system now.
Reopen Toronto as well. Newcastle deserves a proper suburban train service. Add in some high density around the stations and it is definitely financially viable.
Even though I am and always have been rail-oriented, and i would love to see trains to cessnock again, the fact remains that buses and coaches can and do provide adequate requirements to serve Cessnock. The bus network is government-subsidised and run by private contractors such as Rovers. Nothing will change this coordinated system of transport statewide - nothing!!
Excellent and very informative. You should check out the railway line in North Tassie, stunning scenery and no longer used for industry. It has endless possibilities and just sitting unused, running along the edge of the coastline.
This video is almost a year old but a good comparison is the Maryborough line in Victoria which reopened in 2010 for around $50 Million, obviously the differences were that it was already on a busy freight line and was almost double the distance but rebuilding the 3 stations, buying extra rollingstock, doing necessary trackwork, and so on does draw a lot of parallels
I discovered that this line existed well over 60 years ago, and could have told you lots of little details about the line and the company that owned it. Sadly, I never got to travel on it. All that memory has vanished.
The South Maitland Railways connection to Maitland ran trains from 1961, but before that they had a regular trains to Newcastle and Sydney, The Train #24A was called the Cessnock Express.
I rode on the Cessnock Flyer (as it was called). The NSWGR operated it as a single service between cessnock and Sydney. From memory it was steam between cessnock and Gosford then electric loco into central and return. It was replaced as the only government service by a two car diesel and operated usually with no passengers as the government never marketed it until after SMR passenger trains stopped. Rovers and Batterham buses killed the passenger trains to and from Cessnock. The last passenger train services out of Cessnock Station were Government diesels.
I work on site at east greta and the SMR boys keep the line in really good condition all of it is still trafficable at 40km/h its a very beautiful line to trundle down
Good presentation. I think number of stations would number 10, maybe 8. East Greta Junction - Access to Telerah Gilleston Heights - Latest subdivision now down to rail corridor Cliftleigh - Only small time till it develops to rail corridor Kurri Kurri, Weston, Abermain, Neath?, Kearsley?, Cessnock, Bellbird But I think the local member has to now push this issue because a window of 4 years has opened and needs to be promoted and implemented in that time period. Regarding the line terminus I would suggest Bellbird for storage of 2 car DMU's with first stop Bellbird. That means Cessnock becomes a through station. Bus services will converge on the station to meet trains so distance from Cessnock CBD should not be an issue.
There are a couple of issues that I see in your analysis If the service was to take 31 minutes from Cessnock to Maitland, you can not provide an hourly service on a single track. You need to be able to bring this number down to closer to 20 minutes to maintain an hourly service on a single track. the reason for this is you have to allow time for the driver to change ends at Cessnock, which is on the end of an hour trip from Newcastle, and then you need to allow time to ensure that the train has cleared the line at Maitland for the next train to be able to enter the line. The question that I have is by diverting the trains on the Hunter line to Cessnock, want happens with the service frequency to Telarah? In terms of Rollingstock - dont assume that there will be spare Endeavours once the new Regional Fleet is available. The numbers do not add up. While the number of carriages may be enough to replace the XPT and Xplorers, there is not enough in that number to replace all the Endeavours, especially when there is constantly more demands on those trains like more services to Bathurst, Singleton etc. More new trains would be needed
I agree and disagree with your first point. You are right I forgot to factor crew swaps/dwell time etc, but I was surprisingly accurate, as the 1960s era service was scheduled for 34 minutes. I should gone into more depth in that section of the video, and done more research. The Telarah question is also a good one, I just forgot about it. I'd assume they'd alternate, one train to Telarah, one to Cessnock. That would give a train every 2 hours, which with how low traffic Telarah is should be okay. The other would be to run trains more frequently on the Hunter line. Maybe every 45 minutes, and aim for one train every 1hr 15mins into Telarah and Cessnock. But I'm entirely sure. I should have addressed it in the video though. To be fair, both of our points are dependant on the New Regional Fleet actually being delivered, and CAF doesn't have a good track record to say the least. But for the most part, I do agree with you. I think we should be expanding the regional fleet in general. More services to existing destinations and restoring services to others is something I believe we should be doing.
@@CityConnectionsMedia I just had a look at the new regional fleet , there is 10 x 3 carriage interurban trains replacing 14 x 2 Endeavours, I am unaware of more then 1 or 2 instances of 4 car Endeavours, so not sure how that adds up.
I don't know how it adds up either. Maybe they're just copying Victoria since their 3 car vlos went well. Even though the NRF order is 4 more cars, it's still fewer trains, which means either less maintenance, or lower frequencies. Both are not good :/
Great idea for such a ribbon urban development-- spent many years doing environmental studies along that route in the mid 1970's perfect for an uban rail corridor .. definately an urban asset that must not be lost
Great video. I've always thought this was a good opportunity and would make a lot of sense wwith the amount of residential development currently happening, essentially in a corridor following the old line. What i think would be a good (but likely very expensive addition) would be to extend the line south of Cessnock to Bellbird (huge residential development) and then make its way through the pass at Freeman's Waterhole and join the main line just north of Morisset. Would be able to run the line as a loop to Newcastle going either way or have services from Newcastle to Sydney going through the normal route and via Cessnock. I think one of the disadvantages of having a temrinating line at Cessnock would be the journey time say from Cessnock to Newcastle. Due to the indirect route taken by the train, i dont think it would be an enticing transport option as opposed to driving. Having the line connect back to the main line would make the services much more viable for a lot of travlers and open up Cessnock as a more viable town to commute from in my opinon.
Honestly, I agree with you, although it'd take a lot of population growth to make it viable as a passenger line, but the right of way should at least be preserved just in case. Also, I think one important thing to remember is that the Main Northern line between Maitland and Newcastle is capable of 160kph operation, and even faster if we pursued it, so even if the line isn't direct, assuming we take advantage of the speed we could easily beat driving.
I don’t know if it’s financially feasible given the area between Cessnock and the Lake Macquarie areas is quite mountainous but they could run services from Maitland (or even Newcastle) to travel through Cessnock and then build an extension of the track that meets back up at Fassifern at the former Toronto platform to terminate. Or they could be more ambitious and have it extend to Morisset to terminate and build an additional platform (but clearly it will be costly). Perhaps the track could meet up with the Main Northern Line between Dora Creek and Awaba. Either way, Cessnock residents could change trains at either Fassifern or Morisset for Sydney services and it would reduce service times for Cessnock passengers having to do a loop by going back up to Maitland, travelling through Beresfield and Hexham to Broadmeadow then back down to Sydney.
Maybe in the future that could be viable. Personally I doubt it will be for a while, but you never know. Also, I do have a video coming out on money talking about reusing that Toronto line platform...
I have been publicly calling for a light rail network for the Hunter for many years including the reopening of the Cessnock rail service to service those growth areas like Heddon Greta - Gillieston heights and the growth will continue at an increase pace as Maitland has outgrown to it's borders. A regular service would be handy for getting school kids to primary and secondry schools where kids need to travel to access those schools. Our state politicians need to make a concerted effort to get this rail line up and running.
I think Newcastle could have its own integrated/metro rail or light rail system. If you add a light rail, you can also loop from Cessnock down to Bellbird, southeast to Toronto, then north to Wallsend, and feed them back into the streets to Hamilton. If people can sit in a light rail for that long, that would be the cheapest way. Especially if you can use the streets to be more central into the town and Newcastle, Hamilton, even down Hunter Street. Another loop can link Newcastle central through Mereweather, Charlestown, and link into the same line back to Hunter street, you have another radial loop. A north radial loop can be made to the Williamtown airport on a north loop. Yes, the buses are too slow. I was against the light rail replacing the rail. If people can stand sitting in light rail for longer distances, this could link a ""tram" system back to greater Newcastle which could be faster than those horrid busses that do take forever. Newcastle should be growing faster than it is. A fast rail to Sydney would help make it catch up to growing cities like Canberra which are thriving so much more than Newcastle. The problem is Sydney neglects Newcastle and possibly even forgets it's there. Yet Newcastle could be a big step in developing the whole state better, so much potential after the coal years. I lived there for a few years. I know what it's like pushing a case for the Hunter when the money is in Sydney, and seems to stay in Sydney. Much of that money was made in the Hunter, yeah, they don't listen....
Metro probably not, but a city wide light rail would work. They do have plans for a larger network at the moment, but we'll see if that actually happens.
Interesting idea, but there’s a few problems as there usually is with resurrecting old branch lines. First is that where the line is isn’t necessarily where it needs to be for future population centres. If it’s far enough for people to drive to the station they’re more likely to drive their entire journey. Second is the presumption that Newcastle is the desired destination, when the Hunter Expressway has made it fast and easy to go from Cessnock to Glendale by car, or on to Charlestown. Third, you’ve made no allowance for dwell time. Journey times aren’t just the time it takes each train, you’ve got the time it takes to get to the station, wait for the train, then wait again for the connecting service if going to Newcastle, then on to your destination which could involve more trains, buses or ferries. These contribute to total travel time and factor into the travel choices people make and why less than two percent of trips are by train. But the biggest problem is the statistics don’t show enough commuters travel to those destinations to make it worthwhile. The ABS have commute to work stats you can view by SA2 on an interactive map. They’re 2016 figures, but that’s good enough. The main travel routes are local to the vineyards and up the valley, not to Newcastle. Only 159 people travelled to work from Cessnock to Maitland. Just 114 to Newcastle. But 240 went to Singleton. That’s not to say it couldn’t be done, but we will need to reverse the last 70 years of urban planning and car dependency to make it feasible. If the line is to be viable then population and employment needs to be planned around it. That’s going to be decades away.
You bring up some interesting points, I'll and address them each. For your first point, I would agree, but population centres don't really change that much over time, unless something dramatic happens. For your second point, I would also agree, if someone has to drive 5 minutes to the station, driving an extra 30 to their final destination isn't much more difficult. I would counter with the fact that there are people who don't like driving, don't have cars, or can't afford to drive, for those people they would prefer/have to get the train either way. I can say from personal experience growing up in Newcastle, that's quite a lot of young people. For the next point, I would also agree, a lot of people from Cessnock use the Hunter Expressway, don't travel directly to Newcastle. To that I would say that we should improve public transport between the two. I didn't bring it up mainly because I wanted to focus on the Cessnock-Maitland-Newcastle route. As for dwell times. I probably should have factored them in, but those are more difficult to calculate. In order to get estimate, I'd have to find some way to estimate journey times from a variety of start and end points and base journey times on schedules that don't exist yet. It's just not really viable. My estimate of Cessnock - Maitland in 31 minutes was a complete guess, but it turns out it was correct, since the 1965 schedule was 34 minutes. I also didn't include transfer times at Maitland since I assumed trains would continue direct from Cessnock - Newcastle. I'll address your final two points together for simplicity sake. I had a look through the ABS 2016 stats, and I wasn't able to find the stats you mentioned, and the numbers you provided seem rather low. Assuming they're true, at the very least we should still investigate the possibility of reopening the line. Induced demand is very real, and the only way we can reduce car dependancy and reverse the last centuries mistake is to create good public transport, and one of the first steps would be to create a solid backbone for the region.
@@CityConnectionsMedia here’s a link to the interactive map. It’s a bit of a kludgy interface, but if you use the drop-down you can choose by statistical area and input Cessnock it’ll then show the most used destinations by coloured lines but clicking on any SA on the map will give you the count for travel there from Cessnock. The background colour for each statistical area is the percent of total commutes to them from the originating SA. The quick stats button will take you to the demographic data for the chosen SA2. One thing worth noting is how high the number of Cessnock residents is that commute within the SA2, at over 40 percent. The majority of people in Cessnock work there or in adjacent SA2’s. That doesn’t bode well for reintroducing passenger rail. It might make more economic sense in the short-medium term for buses between Cessnock and Huntlee to access Branxton station and increased train services from Singleton to Newcastle. An alternative is to use it as a heritage rail line. If you think of Puffing Billy in Victoria, it runs daily services which residents can access for commuting. Other heritage rail operators such as the Savannahlander in QLD have tendered to provide a scheduled service on those lines, effectively it means they’re paid by the state to operate the service and QR maintain the track. It might be the only way to ensure the corridor is preserved for rail. www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/by%20Subject/2071.0.55.001~2016~Main%20Features~Journey%20to%20Work%20from%20Place%20of%20Usual%20Residence~55
Thanks. It's very odd because it says it's available in table builder too, but I was never able to find it. Either way, I still would contend that induced demand would be a potential factor, but I would also support improved bus services. I do also like your proposal to convert it to a heritage line. For me, the main thing that's important is keeping the line open, because once it's closed it's gone. Keeping it open as a heritage railway would preserve the right of way, and make it possible to ressurect passenger rail in 10, 20 or 30 years time where it might be viable.
What you suggest makes sense. You may not need much extra rollingstock. The easiest plan would be to divert the existing hourly off-peak limited-express service on the Hunter Line to terminate at Cessnock rather than Telarah. If your estimate of 31 minutes from Maitland to Cessnock is right, layover at Cessnock would be 10 minutes (rather than 6 minutes at Telarah). (That time in the 1965 timetable was 34 minutes. So your estimate seems sound.) The up and down services on the branch would cross 6 minutes down the track from Maitland. This would be close to the East Greta station (5 min on down services in 1965 and 7 min on up services). A passing loop at the station would allow a down train to wait for an up train to clear the track beyond. This would add probably 2 min to an outbound run and reduce the layover at the terminus to 8 minutes. Capacity on those off-peak trains should not be an issue, since they will be using the new 3-car trains rather than the current 2-car Hunter and Endeavor trains. (Telarah would continue to be served by the hourly all-stations trains, like High Street and East Maitland stations and the other stations near Sandgate.) In the peak hours services would probably be extensions of the Maitland services. How many extra train sets would be needed would be determined by demand generated. (It's likely to be only 1 or 2 trains.)
I can't believe I didn't think about diverting Telarah services, that tbh would make the most sense. But yeah, I have nothing to add to what you've said here, I pretty much agree with you fully. Also, any chance you've got a copy of that 1965 timetable? I'd love to take a look at it.
@@CityConnectionsMedia I wrote a reply to this last week. I avoided including a web address, but RUclips seems to have hidden it anyway. So you may not have seen it. Try searching for under the clocks and old timetables. You should find a site that has loads of historical timetables.
Sorry about that. I don't think it was posted it was posted at all, since it's not been held for review. Either way, I managed to find that website, and I might end up using it as a reference for my next video...
The infustructure is there, the rollingstock is kinda there (maybe a few more railcars), just needs a refurb with up to standard signalling and artc stuff and boom, service to the community for the growing suburb.
It’s a privately owned line, so you’d better factor in Aurizon wanting to recoup their investment. Not to mention parts of it are quite literally over floodplain, & while the SMR built it to a higher level, development has pushed floodwater to places old locals have never seen. The stations aren’t really in convenient locations, & the surroundings are also undermined. It’s a pipe dream, nothing more.
As a Cessnock resident, good to see some old pics of town, especially old Rail (im an 88-model so Cessnock rail is eaaay before my time). I can tell you now but, nonone would use it. We are too independent, we want our cars, we don't want to walk or catch connecting buses to get here and there ect ect ect Those with a few years racked up would remember the Cessnock station but with no original station to build off and a modern fleet its missing any nostalgic element to the idea as well. On paper you're right. But as 30+ year resident, I can yell you now no one would use it.
I personally disagree, I grew up not far from Cessnock (assuming you count Williamtown as nearby), and I have family and friends who have lived in or near Cessnock and in my experience people in that area would be open to the idea of a rail connection. I would agree that most people would prefer to drive, but there are people who can't or prefer not to drive (young, poor, disabled etc). So they'd almost certainly use a rail connection. Even then, the existing car culture can change. In the 1940s the idea of getting around by car was fairly out there, but now it's the norm in Cessnock (and Australia as a whole). There's no reason it can't change back. Obviously, a lot of my cultural analysis is a bit blind since I've never lived in or near Cessnock, but that's my take on it at the very least.
Interesting idea but 2 comments I'll make. As it now stands, a maximum of 2 trains can run the service (if you have the rollingstock). 1 train can run from Newcastle to East Greta -the end of the double line, near the workshops- and wait for the train from Cessnock. As for safeworking, an axle counter setup would be the cheapest system, the starting signal not being released until the count out of the section is balanced. Rollingstock, the entry of the new regional fleet will release Explorer cars to be refurbished for this service. If this service proves viable ten invest in new cars and infrastructure.
I agree with you. I didn't want to address the more niche signalling issues because it would have made the video too long, but you're very right. Also, you're correct on the axle counter issue, a friend who's a signaller mentioned the same thing.
Trailerbuses would only cost $500,000 each and could leave every 15 minutes for Newcastle with big seats with a good view up top and able to takes electric bikes, mobility scooters and strollers on the lower deck for use to the final destination. With auto prime movers, cameras, speed limiting, ABS, stability control, air brakes and a fixed turntable they should be made legal and bang for the buck is what we need to reduce inflation but you definitely have done a good job mate.
what’s the on-going costs or maintaining and operating the service? after all a lot of the infrastructure isn’t new. refurbished tracks still need more monitoring compared to brand new
Unfortunatley, I don't really know how to get a balllpark figure for it, but I'd assume it would be similar/slightly less than the single track sections of the main north.
It has been proposed to extend electrification from Broadmeadow to Telarah, allowing electric train services from Sydney to run to Maitland. This would free up Hunter rail cars, both by eliminating the services that only run between the white elephant at Wickham and Telarah, and in shortening the Scone and Dungog services to start from Maitland instead of the white elephant. My understanding is that this might create an opportunity to extend Scone services to Murrurindi, and Dungog services to either Gloucester or possibly even Taree. If those services were not extended, the extra diesel fleet capacity could be used for Cessnock services. Completion of electrification of the south coast line has also been mentioned. If this is completed, it would free up diesel railcars that could also be used in the Hunter.
Honestly, I think both of those are great options. If we were to do a 'regional rail revival', I'd almost certainly put those projects at the top of the list.
Thanks! You still need signalling for the most part. Modern ETCS/ATP uses GPS, although it still needs ground stations to make sure it knows where the trains are. I might do a full video on signalling in the near future.
Unfortunately there is a push for rail trail cycling tracks around the hunter. Rail services will never return to Cessnock. In fact it’s more likely we’ll be able to cycle from Shortland to Cessnock than to take a train. Rail to Belmont would’ve made far more sense as Lake Mac is growing.
I'm not so sure, because the government is looking into it, but we'll see. I do want to do a video critiquing rail trails though, because they have some problems in my opinion.
That said, it would be awesome for more safe areas that I could go cycling with my kids. The path in Railway st isn’t maintained at all and has cracks big enough to swallow a road tyre.
Well presented and researched. I think you’ve stated a good case for a service to Cessnock - and including figures to back your claim. Why not refer this to a local MP? There are a couple of stations (Neath for one) that perhaps could be moved a bit closer to Cessnock (nearer housing). The level crossing at Neath (on the road to Kearsley) would need lights and barriers, and that intersection at Neath an upgrade. Otherwise it’s pretty much set up for a return to passenger duties.
I'd send it to a local mp, but I'm just a planning student who likes making videos. It's going to have mistakes that I've not factored in. The best I can hope this video to do is to get the conversation started so the people who know what they're doing get it done.
The refurbishment and reopening of Wallerawang station got cancelled. The New South Wales government have completely stuffed regional rail. They shouldn't have closed the lines down that they have in the first place.
A great idea but not likely to happen because the state government only considers regional NSW as a source of income to spend on Sydney, they tried selling off all the regional hospitals to fund the construction of Westmead and the early days of the port of Newcastle, they refused to spend money on wharfs and dredging and toward and making the harbour safer for shipping, but they demanded all the revenue the could get coal exports, and other shipping related fees
A few months back they unhooked some coal cars on the line at Weston Bridge to as far back as the Kurri Industrial zone... about 1.2 KM of coal cars... not sure if they did it in other places... but probably not going to get them off any time soon... they will probably will up with trash before they clear the track.
I'm glad to see this topic being brought up, its a viably smart idea for the govt to invest in with all the area's growth. However, I don't think the line's would be dingle track one way as your early restart of service case says with the line alrrady having the room for double track. Signalling would most likely have to be installed if it was to reopen as a passanger route, therefore spending that bit of money in reopening the line would be all the worth in slashing travel time even more from your stats. Overall, good video
I somewhat agree. More than likely signalling would have to be installed, but it's not 100% essential for a base level service. Suburban and Intercity railcrew are trained on staff and ticket working, and it was/is used in a few places on the NSW passenger network. But I do agree with you, if the budget was there, I'd say double track and signal before starting to save the extra hassle down the line.
@@CityConnectionsMedia The money to double track the line -again- won't be allocated until it's a certainty that the service will work. The backlash against wasting that money will be huge.
Paige, Cessnock buses have regular daily services to Newcastle and the time taken is 1 hour and 20 minutes, longer than a car trip I grant you, but certainly not up to 4 hours! Where did you get that idea?
I think you must be mistaken. I talk about how long the bus takes at 10:45, and the number I give is 1hr 30 to Newcastle. If I've said 4 hours somewhere in the video, that's a major mistake on my part.
If you wear to look at putting anything in at 6th street you would face an issue as there is an existing coal line you would run into. I see no reason that a station couldn’t be built in Quarrobolong St, near Edgeworth St, and make use of the coal line.
Greatly appreciated for the video you posted but your costings and estimates on what it cost just to bring the line back into good passenger safe condition would be soo over the top that it would still not be viable and why would they spend all that taxpayers $$$ when there is a perfeftly good working bus service to newcastle that serves our area and also is efficient without having to spend a cent on it.
Just say, for arguments sake, that a proposal went ahead to run a passenger service to Cessnock. You wouldn't need extra trains to run this service as, in my opinion, you could "steal" services that would normally terminate at Telarah and send them to Cessnock instead. Those Telarah services run something like every 30 minutes. Signalling could be Rail Vehicle Detection (RVD) with crossing loops upgrade East Greta and a new station with a passing loop at Gilleston Heights, maybe North Kurri Kurri, an island platform at Abermain, with Neath keeping it's current single track arrangement and use Caledonia station with a new 2 platform (Island) platform arrangement for Cessnock. If you want to extend the line further, maybe while housing growth north of Cessnock is in its infancy, run it close to the alignment of Wine Country Drive and service Cessnock Airport, Crowne Plaza, North Rothbury and bring the line to the mainline on the old Rothbury Riot Railway alignment to Branxton. Then you could run trains in both directions. Buses should only be feeder services for trains, not replace them outright.
I like alot of your ideas but They would have to build a new track because the current track is currently being used by coal trains Almost all day everyday I know because I live near the neath section of this line
That's odd, because to my knowledge the last coal mine closed 3 years ago. Maybe one of them has reopened? either way, passenger trains and coal trains can run together with the proper signalling.
@@CityConnectionsMedia The Austar coal mine is a coal mine located near Paxton, New South Wales. The mine has coal reserves amounting to 221 million tonnes of coking coal trains are due to the removal of reserves on site they said to me they expect it to end 2026 i guess we will see but yeah they have stopped mining operations so your correct on that part
Ah, that would make sense. I don't think they'll actually be restarting mining there,. The company that owns it announced that they've permanently closed it, and they're rehabilitating the site. www.austarcoalmine.com.au/page/operations/
Coal trains don't run on that line and they haven't since 2020. I believe service vehicles do every now and then but trains certainly do not. I live in bellbird right next to the track and haven't heard a train for ages.
There is a rail museum at Paterson who own 2 or 3 original motorcar carriages, and they were running a monthly service from Paterson to Neath, for lunch at Neath Hotel, and then back to Paterson but I think there was limited interest.
Probably not when you factor in environmental costs, or people who can't or don't want to drive. There's even the road maintenance factor, which can get real expensive.
Slow down your narration. Professional announcers are trained to speak at about half normal speed. Your narration will be clearer if you do this. I found that I had to listen very carefully to catch everything, and I am a native Sydney sider.
I agree with you. I talk fast in real life, and I'm fairly new to all this. With my future videos, I'm going to try and pace myself more, and hopefully I can pull it off. Thanks for brining my attention to this btw!
@@lwf51Despite what you said, I guarantee that you would not be able to transcribe at least 30% of this because it was less about him speaking too fast and more about him not speaking clearly enough. Many of the words were mushed together, making it difficult to understand, except for those who already understood the subject matter and could fill in the gaps. For instance 1:33 “snap paper”? Even the automatically generated Closed Captions couldn’t understand the mumbling.
@lwf51 I have no problem with the information. Clearly well-researched, as you note. I still think that speaking more slowly would improve the narration. I have worked with professional announcers and also have advised on professional presentations.
Might get your wish. If fossil fuelled cars are banned in favour of EVs we will go back 100 years to when the poor had no choice but use public transport. The value of EVs is linked to life remaining on the batteries. By the time they get down to the value low income earners can afford, they no longer function. Even the cheapest replacement battery pack is many times more than low income earners pay for a roadworthy fossil-fuelled car. With the poor forced off roads. they step back 100 years to when walking or public transport were the only options.
Problem: Political parties do little to support rail public transport. (RPT) Reason: Donors to parties don't make profit from RPT, and advocates of RPT usually can't afford to donate large sums to political parties. Solution: RISE UP MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS, AND OVERTHROW THE CORRUPT, SELF SERVING POLITICIANS... or just give more support to rail advocates. ;)
Mate, don't talk so fast, it's hard to understand what you're saying! From my understanding of the SMR, it was bought by allied coal in 1987 and only had contracted the government locomotives to haul the output from the mines in the Cessnock area so ARTC has no control over the line as it was classed as a private line. You're too young to understand that political parties are NOT interested in doing whats best for the communities they are SUPPOSED to serve, they just throw out these ideas, get people's hopes up only to say that they can't afford to do such projects as they have to spend $50 million on refurbishing the toilets in parliament house.
Thanks for the comment! Talking too fast is something I'm aware of. I'm currently working on pacing myself more. I also believe you're probably correct in regards to operations. I just couldn't find any solid details, so I chose to exclude it from the video to save time, and because it wasn't super relevant. As for the too young thing, I may be young, but I'm well aware the government isn't the best... The town I grew up in was meant to have a high school by the time I started year 7. I graduated 5 years ago now, and the towns population has nearly doubled, so yeah...
Great presentation, and 100% should happen. So much growth happening in the area but public transport is falling behind. This would solve a lot of issues.
As an ex employee of NSW rail 1972 to 79 it breaks my heart to know how many lines have closed or are only freight lines. Government entries were once a service by the people for the people. Rail, Post Office, which also ran our phone service.
I am all for reopening these lines if needed.
I live nowhere near cessnock but I would love to see this happen
I know quite a lot of people who are moving to areas like Kurri Kurri and Cessnock but still work in Sydney. This area is one of the largest areas of growth in the regions. And having the train line open will create more healthier TOD development compared to the Suburban development being built in floodplains. And with that, extend it to Bellbird and Millfield, and electrify the line for not just passenger trains, but bi-mode locomotives for freight! It'd also allow for at least a daily express service to Sydney too! And I know that it DESPREATLY needs a new line! Thanks so much for raising and supporting this! I've been advocating for years but often get pushed down whenever I move my mouth, so thank you!
Thanks for the support!
If I were the one leading this project, I'd almost certainly agree that all you've said should be done. I'm not sure there'd be a need for freight along the line, but you never know.
I've also noticed that there's been more people talking about this in the past few years, and now that the government is looking into it, it might happen. So we'll both be able to prove those nay sayers wrong!
Just how long a train journey would it be from Cessnock to Sydney ???
Cessnock to Maitland 30 minutes, Maitland to Hamilton 30 minutes, Hamilton to Sydney 2hours 30 minutes, so a person is traveling for 3-1/2 hours.
Same person drives from Cessnock to Morisset, easy 30 minutes, then by train from Morisset to Sydney 1 hour 40 minutes, total 2 hours 10 minutes
Why would a person travel from Cessnock via Maitland, when it's quicker via Morisset???
Let HSR handle service to Sydney revive this line as an extension of hunter line local service boost express service to moree, dungog
@@RebeccaGriffin-b8ngood point build a maglev with a transfer to this line as part of a Brisbane Sydney service
Have you any idea as to how much it costs to power an electric locomotive, that why freight trains use diesel locomotives. The taxpayer pays for the electricity that powers passenger trains, the price of a ticket does not come anywhere near the cost, that's why their not privately owned, you think that your electricity bills are high ,you would not to pay for an electric locomotive just standing still, let alone when powering.
I've driven them and been there when testing them, they are not cheap to operate.
Australia has a huge network of rail, that's just rotting. There's potential to open lines everywhere. But you know, cars, private enterprise.
As I understand things the line to Cessnock was privately owned.
I had a friend who used it up to 1967 tp travel to Newcastle as a student. He was a mile from the station at either end of the journey and he always said…..it takes less time to ride my bike !!!
The steelworks used to run private buses from the B H P to Cessnock which was probably illegal at the time. But the buses were probably a charter which may have eased the legal situation.
As Joanne Mitchel sang…..”You don’t know what you’ve got ‘til it’s gone…….they paved paradise and put up a parking lot!!!
As a resident of the Maitland area, I like your proposals, but I'd consider another alternative, as part of a more ambitious upgrade of the entire Hunter line. Electrification of the main Hunter Line (at least as far as Maitland, but ideally to Singleton) would free up existing rolling stock for the Maitland to Cessnock branch line (and possibly increase services on the existing branch line to Dungog) and increase the capacity of the main line. Of course this would mean an increased cost for the project as a whole, but would mean a cost reduction for the branch line as only new/upgraded stations and passing loops would be required.
Honestly, I agree. If I were proposing a more radical plan, I would probably propose exactly what you've just said. My focus was more on a mininum viable service. But the Hunter is going to need something better within the next 50 years, and electrification should be a priority imo.
Should have put the new interchange at Broadmeadow and then electrified and routed trains from Sydney out for first stop at Waratah then on to Maitland. Then as you said here.
Inconvenience for folks going into Newcastle proper offset by extra stops at Islington and Wickham.
@@joshiguana Extending the light rail to Broadmeadow (and beyond) should be a no brainer. Then the interchange at Broadmeadow would have made sense. How long till they want even more and do cut the heavy back to Broadmeadow?
Newcastle/The Hunter really needs to become marginal seats then they will get all this and more. LOL
In Queensland the train to Townsville 1361 km is electric. And a lot of the coal trains are electric, 1 loco for 16,000 tone. Sad part they should have gone wide gague in Qld as narrow gauge won't suport double deck passenger service. Our suburban network is at breaking point.
@@johnblyth9787 The North Coast line is only electric as far as Rockhampton, you need a very long extension cord to get to Townsville. There is a route from Gladstone through to Mackay that is electricfied via the Coalfields, but much longer in disntance, and you still need that extension cord
The Cessnock & many other lines in NSW should never been closed bring them all back.😠
The most recent example of this thinking was the closure of the heavy rail connection between Hamilton (Wickham) to Newcastle Station by Gladys Binchicken. This was a travesty on all levels and this smelt of corruption when the initial proposal was put forward. Passenger numbers had nothing to do with the closure as "other" low patronage stations stay open, i.e., Wondabyne and Bell to name a couple off the top of my head.
@@B10Mman THAT'S THE LIBERAL PARTY FOR YOU THERE IDIOTS.😠🤡👹
We have got to fight like crazy against this putrid bike trail cult im from murwillumbah
@robertcoleman4861 I agree with you. The state government should understand that areas such as Cessnock will grow population wise in the future. It makes sense to reinstate the line to Cessnock in the future.
We lived in West Cessnock. The coal was hauled by steam locomotives until the early 1980s. One of my fondest memories is of listening to the steam trains trying to gain traction on the icy rails in the middle of winter with the chuff-chuffing speeding up and slowing down as the wheels slipped and then gained purchase on the rails. Knowing that the coal was then hauled to Newcastle I often wondered why trains weren't available for passengers as well. Obviously the tracks were still there. As a teenager I took the Rover Motors bus to Newcastle on several occasions and it was definitely a very slow journey. From memory, the bus went via Maitland. With Cessnock's expanding population and with sky-rocketing fuel prices there might well be enough passenger potential to restart a Cessnock to Newcastle rail service. Certainly worth a feasibility study.
Information for those not in the know, when South Maitland Railways had their own railcars built they were more powerful and faster than the New South Wales Government Railways trains.
Cessnock is a larger and more populated city than Bunbury in WA, yet Bunbury has a dedicated two return trains a day to Perth. I moved to perth from Cessnock over 30 years ago. The WA government had tried shutting down all its passenger rail but professor Newman from Curtin University was instrumental in getting trains reinstated (after the Court government closed the Fremantle line) when a change of government occurred. Since those dark transport days, there's been a revival in rail transit here in Perth that has seen a doubling of the size of the metropolitan network. Build it, maintain it and people will use it. Perth has a fantastic train system now.
Reopen Toronto as well. Newcastle deserves a proper suburban train service. Add in some high density around the stations and it is definitely financially viable.
I agree. I'll probably do a video on that topic very soon...
Glad I’m not the only one with this idea!
the line is being used as storage for spare rolling stock by its current owner
Well presented mate
My neighbor is going to love this, he is always asking why we don’t have trains in Cessnock
Thanks!
I hope your neighbour enjoys the video too
I really hope the government sees this and uses their brains and reopens this line
Good on you for this presentation
Govts are addicted to motor taxes and don’t like rural efficient passenger services
Even though I am and always have been rail-oriented, and i would love to see trains to cessnock again, the fact remains that buses and coaches can and do provide adequate requirements to serve Cessnock. The bus network is government-subsidised and run by private contractors such as Rovers. Nothing will change this coordinated system of transport statewide - nothing!!
It is being checked on a weekly basis via a hyrail ute checking for broken or blocked line.
That's really good then!
Excellent and very informative. You should check out the railway line in North Tassie, stunning scenery and no longer used for industry. It has endless possibilities and just sitting unused, running along the edge of the coastline.
Don't tempt me. I do want to make a video on railways in Tasmania, so maybe I'll do that line.
This video is almost a year old but a good comparison is the Maryborough line in Victoria which reopened in 2010 for around $50 Million, obviously the differences were that it was already on a busy freight line and was almost double the distance but rebuilding the 3 stations, buying extra rollingstock, doing necessary trackwork, and so on does draw a lot of parallels
I discovered that this line existed well over 60 years ago, and could have told you lots of little details about the line and the company that owned it. Sadly, I never got to travel on it. All that memory has vanished.
The South Maitland Railways connection to Maitland ran trains from 1961, but before that they had a regular trains to Newcastle and Sydney, The Train #24A was called the Cessnock Express.
I rode on the Cessnock Flyer (as it was called). The NSWGR operated it as a single service between cessnock and Sydney. From memory it was steam between cessnock and Gosford then electric loco into central and return. It was replaced as the only government service by a two car diesel and operated usually with no passengers as the government never marketed it until after SMR passenger trains stopped. Rovers and Batterham buses killed the passenger trains to and from Cessnock. The last passenger train services out of Cessnock Station were Government diesels.
I work on site at east greta and the SMR boys keep the line in really good condition all of it is still trafficable at 40km/h its a very beautiful line to trundle down
You might be forgetting it was sold to Aurizon as a wagon storage yard....
Good presentation. I think number of stations would number 10, maybe 8.
East Greta Junction - Access to Telerah
Gilleston Heights - Latest subdivision now down to rail corridor
Cliftleigh - Only small time till it develops to rail corridor
Kurri Kurri, Weston, Abermain, Neath?, Kearsley?, Cessnock, Bellbird
But I think the local member has to now push this issue because a window of 4 years has opened and needs to be promoted and implemented in that time period.
Regarding the line terminus I would suggest Bellbird for storage of 2 car DMU's with first stop Bellbird. That means Cessnock becomes a through station. Bus services will converge on the station to meet trains so distance from Cessnock CBD should not be an issue.
There are a couple of issues that I see in your analysis
If the service was to take 31 minutes from Cessnock to Maitland, you can not provide an hourly service on a single track. You need to be able to bring this number down to closer to 20 minutes to maintain an hourly service on a single track. the reason for this is you have to allow time for the driver to change ends at Cessnock, which is on the end of an hour trip from Newcastle, and then you need to allow time to ensure that the train has cleared the line at Maitland for the next train to be able to enter the line.
The question that I have is by diverting the trains on the Hunter line to Cessnock, want happens with the service frequency to Telarah?
In terms of Rollingstock - dont assume that there will be spare Endeavours once the new Regional Fleet is available. The numbers do not add up. While the number of carriages may be enough to replace the XPT and Xplorers, there is not enough in that number to replace all the Endeavours, especially when there is constantly more demands on those trains like more services to Bathurst, Singleton etc. More new trains would be needed
I agree and disagree with your first point. You are right I forgot to factor crew swaps/dwell time etc, but I was surprisingly accurate, as the 1960s era service was scheduled for 34 minutes. I should gone into more depth in that section of the video, and done more research.
The Telarah question is also a good one, I just forgot about it. I'd assume they'd alternate, one train to Telarah, one to Cessnock. That would give a train every 2 hours, which with how low traffic Telarah is should be okay. The other would be to run trains more frequently on the Hunter line. Maybe every 45 minutes, and aim for one train every 1hr 15mins into Telarah and Cessnock. But I'm entirely sure. I should have addressed it in the video though.
To be fair, both of our points are dependant on the New Regional Fleet actually being delivered, and CAF doesn't have a good track record to say the least. But for the most part, I do agree with you. I think we should be expanding the regional fleet in general. More services to existing destinations and restoring services to others is something I believe we should be doing.
@@CityConnectionsMedia I just had a look at the new regional fleet , there is 10 x 3 carriage interurban trains replacing 14 x 2 Endeavours, I am unaware of more then 1 or 2 instances of 4 car Endeavours, so not sure how that adds up.
I don't know how it adds up either. Maybe they're just copying Victoria since their 3 car vlos went well.
Even though the NRF order is 4 more cars, it's still fewer trains, which means either less maintenance, or lower frequencies. Both are not good :/
Great idea for such a ribbon urban development-- spent many years doing environmental studies along that route in the mid 1970's perfect for an uban rail corridor .. definately an urban asset that must not be lost
There is a parked train on this line at the moment, so I assume it still is passable.
Are there any more details you can give on that? I've not heard or seen anything like that at all recently
Great video.
I've always thought this was a good opportunity and would make a lot of sense wwith the amount of residential development currently happening, essentially in a corridor following the old line.
What i think would be a good (but likely very expensive addition) would be to extend the line south of Cessnock to Bellbird (huge residential development) and then make its way through the pass at Freeman's Waterhole and join the main line just north of Morisset. Would be able to run the line as a loop to Newcastle going either way or have services from Newcastle to Sydney going through the normal route and via Cessnock.
I think one of the disadvantages of having a temrinating line at Cessnock would be the journey time say from Cessnock to Newcastle. Due to the indirect route taken by the train, i dont think it would be an enticing transport option as opposed to driving. Having the line connect back to the main line would make the services much more viable for a lot of travlers and open up Cessnock as a more viable town to commute from in my opinon.
Honestly, I agree with you, although it'd take a lot of population growth to make it viable as a passenger line, but the right of way should at least be preserved just in case.
Also, I think one important thing to remember is that the Main Northern line between Maitland and Newcastle is capable of 160kph operation, and even faster if we pursued it, so even if the line isn't direct, assuming we take advantage of the speed we could easily beat driving.
I don’t know if it’s financially feasible given the area between Cessnock and the Lake Macquarie areas is quite mountainous but they could run services from Maitland (or even Newcastle) to travel through Cessnock and then build an extension of the track that meets back up at Fassifern at the former Toronto platform to terminate. Or they could be more ambitious and have it extend to Morisset to terminate and build an additional platform (but clearly it will be costly). Perhaps the track could meet up with the Main Northern Line between Dora Creek and Awaba. Either way, Cessnock residents could change trains at either Fassifern or Morisset for Sydney services and it would reduce service times for Cessnock passengers having to do a loop by going back up to Maitland, travelling through Beresfield and Hexham to Broadmeadow then back down to Sydney.
Maybe in the future that could be viable. Personally I doubt it will be for a while, but you never know. Also, I do have a video coming out on money talking about reusing that Toronto line platform...
With the future construction of fassifern to Hexham this may also allow direct trains from Cessnock to central via Maitland for peak passenger periods
I have been publicly calling for a light rail network for the Hunter for many years including the reopening of the Cessnock rail service to service those growth areas like Heddon Greta - Gillieston heights and the growth will continue at an increase pace as Maitland has outgrown to it's borders. A regular service would be handy for getting school kids to primary and secondry schools where kids need to travel to access those schools. Our state politicians need to make a concerted effort to get this rail line up and running.
Very much agreed! Regional towns and cities deserve public transport just as much as Sydney.
nice to see some videos from you :)
I think Newcastle could have its own integrated/metro rail or light rail system. If you add a light rail, you can also loop from Cessnock down to Bellbird, southeast to Toronto, then north to Wallsend, and feed them back into the streets to Hamilton. If people can sit in a light rail for that long, that would be the cheapest way. Especially if you can use the streets to be more central into the town and Newcastle, Hamilton, even down Hunter Street. Another loop can link Newcastle central through Mereweather, Charlestown, and link into the same line back to Hunter street, you have another radial loop. A north radial loop can be made to the Williamtown airport on a north loop. Yes, the buses are too slow. I was against the light rail replacing the rail. If people can stand sitting in light rail for longer distances, this could link a ""tram" system back to greater Newcastle which could be faster than those horrid busses that do take forever. Newcastle should be growing faster than it is. A fast rail to Sydney would help make it catch up to growing cities like Canberra which are thriving so much more than Newcastle. The problem is Sydney neglects Newcastle and possibly even forgets it's there. Yet Newcastle could be a big step in developing the whole state better, so much potential after the coal years. I lived there for a few years. I know what it's like pushing a case for the Hunter when the money is in Sydney, and seems to stay in Sydney. Much of that money was made in the Hunter, yeah, they don't listen....
Metro probably not, but a city wide light rail would work. They do have plans for a larger network at the moment, but we'll see if that actually happens.
Interesting idea, but there’s a few problems as there usually is with resurrecting old branch lines. First is that where the line is isn’t necessarily where it needs to be for future population centres. If it’s far enough for people to drive to the station they’re more likely to drive their entire journey. Second is the presumption that Newcastle is the desired destination, when the Hunter Expressway has made it fast and easy to go from Cessnock to Glendale by car, or on to Charlestown. Third, you’ve made no allowance for dwell time. Journey times aren’t just the time it takes each train, you’ve got the time it takes to get to the station, wait for the train, then wait again for the connecting service if going to Newcastle, then on to your destination which could involve more trains, buses or ferries. These contribute to total travel time and factor into the travel choices people make and why less than two percent of trips are by train.
But the biggest problem is the statistics don’t show enough commuters travel to those destinations to make it worthwhile. The ABS have commute to work stats you can view by SA2 on an interactive map. They’re 2016 figures, but that’s good enough. The main travel routes are local to the vineyards and up the valley, not to Newcastle. Only 159 people travelled to work from Cessnock to Maitland. Just 114 to Newcastle. But 240 went to Singleton.
That’s not to say it couldn’t be done, but we will need to reverse the last 70 years of urban planning and car dependency to make it feasible. If the line is to be viable then population and employment needs to be planned around it. That’s going to be decades away.
You bring up some interesting points, I'll and address them each.
For your first point, I would agree, but population centres don't really change that much over time, unless something dramatic happens.
For your second point, I would also agree, if someone has to drive 5 minutes to the station, driving an extra 30 to their final destination isn't much more difficult. I would counter with the fact that there are people who don't like driving, don't have cars, or can't afford to drive, for those people they would prefer/have to get the train either way. I can say from personal experience growing up in Newcastle, that's quite a lot of young people.
For the next point, I would also agree, a lot of people from Cessnock use the Hunter Expressway, don't travel directly to Newcastle. To that I would say that we should improve public transport between the two. I didn't bring it up mainly because I wanted to focus on the Cessnock-Maitland-Newcastle route.
As for dwell times. I probably should have factored them in, but those are more difficult to calculate. In order to get estimate, I'd have to find some way to estimate journey times from a variety of start and end points and base journey times on schedules that don't exist yet. It's just not really viable. My estimate of Cessnock - Maitland in 31 minutes was a complete guess, but it turns out it was correct, since the 1965 schedule was 34 minutes. I also didn't include transfer times at Maitland since I assumed trains would continue direct from Cessnock - Newcastle.
I'll address your final two points together for simplicity sake. I had a look through the ABS 2016 stats, and I wasn't able to find the stats you mentioned, and the numbers you provided seem rather low. Assuming they're true, at the very least we should still investigate the possibility of reopening the line. Induced demand is very real, and the only way we can reduce car dependancy and reverse the last centuries mistake is to create good public transport, and one of the first steps would be to create a solid backbone for the region.
@@CityConnectionsMedia here’s a link to the interactive map. It’s a bit of a kludgy interface, but if you use the drop-down you can choose by statistical area and input Cessnock it’ll then show the most used destinations by coloured lines but clicking on any SA on the map will give you the count for travel there from Cessnock. The background colour for each statistical area is the percent of total commutes to them from the originating SA. The quick stats button will take you to the demographic data for the chosen SA2. One thing worth noting is how high the number of Cessnock residents is that commute within the SA2, at over 40 percent. The majority of people in Cessnock work there or in adjacent SA2’s. That doesn’t bode well for reintroducing passenger rail. It might make more economic sense in the short-medium term for buses between Cessnock and Huntlee to access Branxton station and increased train services from Singleton to Newcastle.
An alternative is to use it as a heritage rail line. If you think of Puffing Billy in Victoria, it runs daily services which residents can access for commuting. Other heritage rail operators such as the Savannahlander in QLD have tendered to provide a scheduled service on those lines, effectively it means they’re paid by the state to operate the service and QR maintain the track. It might be the only way to ensure the corridor is preserved for rail.
www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/by%20Subject/2071.0.55.001~2016~Main%20Features~Journey%20to%20Work%20from%20Place%20of%20Usual%20Residence~55
Thanks. It's very odd because it says it's available in table builder too, but I was never able to find it.
Either way, I still would contend that induced demand would be a potential factor, but I would also support improved bus services.
I do also like your proposal to convert it to a heritage line. For me, the main thing that's important is keeping the line open, because once it's closed it's gone. Keeping it open as a heritage railway would preserve the right of way, and make it possible to ressurect passenger rail in 10, 20 or 30 years time where it might be viable.
What you suggest makes sense.
You may not need much extra rollingstock.
The easiest plan would be to divert the existing hourly off-peak limited-express service on the Hunter Line to terminate at Cessnock rather than Telarah. If your estimate of 31 minutes from Maitland to Cessnock is right, layover at Cessnock would be 10 minutes (rather than 6 minutes at Telarah). (That time in the 1965 timetable was 34 minutes. So your estimate seems sound.)
The up and down services on the branch would cross 6 minutes down the track from Maitland. This would be close to the East Greta station (5 min on down services in 1965 and 7 min on up services). A passing loop at the station would allow a down train to wait for an up train to clear the track beyond. This would add probably 2 min to an outbound run and reduce the layover at the terminus to 8 minutes.
Capacity on those off-peak trains should not be an issue, since they will be using the new 3-car trains rather than the current 2-car Hunter and Endeavor trains.
(Telarah would continue to be served by the hourly all-stations trains, like High Street and East Maitland stations and the other stations near Sandgate.)
In the peak hours services would probably be extensions of the Maitland services. How many extra train sets would be needed would be determined by demand generated. (It's likely to be only 1 or 2 trains.)
I can't believe I didn't think about diverting Telarah services, that tbh would make the most sense.
But yeah, I have nothing to add to what you've said here, I pretty much agree with you fully.
Also, any chance you've got a copy of that 1965 timetable? I'd love to take a look at it.
@@CityConnectionsMedia
I wrote a reply to this last week. I avoided including a web address, but RUclips seems to have hidden it anyway. So you may not have seen it.
Try searching for under the clocks and old timetables. You should find a site that has loads of historical timetables.
Sorry about that. I don't think it was posted it was posted at all, since it's not been held for review. Either way, I managed to find that website, and I might end up using it as a reference for my next video...
The infustructure is there, the rollingstock is kinda there (maybe a few more railcars), just needs a refurb with up to standard signalling and artc stuff and boom, service to the community for the growing suburb.
It’s a privately owned line, so you’d better factor in Aurizon wanting to recoup their investment. Not to mention parts of it are quite literally over floodplain, & while the SMR built it to a higher level, development has pushed floodwater to places old locals have never seen. The stations aren’t really in convenient locations, & the surroundings are also undermined. It’s a pipe dream, nothing more.
As a Cessnock resident, good to see some old pics of town, especially old Rail (im an 88-model so Cessnock rail is eaaay before my time).
I can tell you now but, nonone would use it. We are too independent, we want our cars, we don't want to walk or catch connecting buses to get here and there ect ect ect
Those with a few years racked up would remember the Cessnock station but with no original station to build off and a modern fleet its missing any nostalgic element to the idea as well.
On paper you're right. But as 30+ year resident, I can yell you now no one would use it.
I personally disagree, I grew up not far from Cessnock (assuming you count Williamtown as nearby), and I have family and friends who have lived in or near Cessnock and in my experience people in that area would be open to the idea of a rail connection. I would agree that most people would prefer to drive, but there are people who can't or prefer not to drive (young, poor, disabled etc). So they'd almost certainly use a rail connection. Even then, the existing car culture can change. In the 1940s the idea of getting around by car was fairly out there, but now it's the norm in Cessnock (and Australia as a whole). There's no reason it can't change back.
Obviously, a lot of my cultural analysis is a bit blind since I've never lived in or near Cessnock, but that's my take on it at the very least.
Interesting idea but 2 comments I'll make. As it now stands, a maximum of 2 trains can run the service (if you have the rollingstock). 1 train can run from Newcastle to East Greta -the end of the double line, near the workshops- and wait for the train from Cessnock. As for safeworking, an axle counter setup would be the cheapest system, the starting signal not being released until the count out of the section is balanced.
Rollingstock, the entry of the new regional fleet will release Explorer cars to be refurbished for this service. If this service proves viable ten invest in new cars and infrastructure.
I agree with you. I didn't want to address the more niche signalling issues because it would have made the video too long, but you're very right. Also, you're correct on the axle counter issue, a friend who's a signaller mentioned the same thing.
Trailerbuses would only cost $500,000 each and could leave every 15 minutes for Newcastle with big seats with a good view up top and able to takes electric bikes, mobility scooters and strollers on the lower deck for use to the final destination.
With auto prime movers, cameras, speed limiting, ABS, stability control, air brakes and a fixed turntable they should be made legal and bang for the buck is what we need to reduce inflation but you definitely have done a good job mate.
YES!YES!YES!
what’s the on-going costs or maintaining and operating the service? after all a lot of the infrastructure isn’t new. refurbished tracks still need more monitoring compared to brand new
Unfortunatley, I don't really know how to get a balllpark figure for it, but I'd assume it would be similar/slightly less than the single track sections of the main north.
It has been proposed to extend electrification from Broadmeadow to Telarah, allowing electric train services from Sydney to run to Maitland. This would free up Hunter rail cars, both by eliminating the services that only run between the white elephant at Wickham and Telarah, and in shortening the Scone and Dungog services to start from Maitland instead of the white elephant.
My understanding is that this might create an opportunity to extend Scone services to Murrurindi, and Dungog services to either Gloucester or possibly even Taree. If those services were not extended, the extra diesel fleet capacity could be used for Cessnock services.
Completion of electrification of the south coast line has also been mentioned. If this is completed, it would free up diesel railcars that could also be used in the Hunter.
Honestly, I think both of those are great options. If we were to do a 'regional rail revival', I'd almost certainly put those projects at the top of the list.
Great idea, well presented, but you'd have to buy the track off aurizion who quite like to use it for storage, so you'd need to factor that in
That's easily worked around imo. So it shouldn't be too much of an issue.
I have an idea, that just recently Aurizon, purchased the line from Greta to Bellbird junction
Visionary thinking mate! . I don't know if new signalling is needed these days. Maybe 4 new trains with GPS tracking control between them.
Thanks!
You still need signalling for the most part. Modern ETCS/ATP uses GPS, although it still needs ground stations to make sure it knows where the trains are. I might do a full video on signalling in the near future.
Unfortunately there is a push for rail trail cycling tracks around the hunter. Rail services will never return to Cessnock. In fact it’s more likely we’ll be able to cycle from Shortland to Cessnock than to take a train. Rail to Belmont would’ve made far more sense as Lake Mac is growing.
I'm not so sure, because the government is looking into it, but we'll see. I do want to do a video critiquing rail trails though, because they have some problems in my opinion.
That said, it would be awesome for more safe areas that I could go cycling with my kids. The path in Railway st isn’t maintained at all and has cracks big enough to swallow a road tyre.
where would cessnock station go
Well presented and researched. I think you’ve stated a good case for a service to Cessnock - and including figures to back your claim. Why not refer this to a local MP?
There are a couple of stations (Neath for one) that perhaps could be moved a bit closer to Cessnock (nearer housing). The level crossing at Neath (on the road to Kearsley) would need lights and barriers, and that intersection at Neath an upgrade.
Otherwise it’s pretty much set up for a return to passenger duties.
I'd send it to a local mp, but I'm just a planning student who likes making videos. It's going to have mistakes that I've not factored in. The best I can hope this video to do is to get the conversation started so the people who know what they're doing get it done.
@@CityConnectionsMedia Well if you’re a student, your efforts are pretty good. I wish you all the best👍🏻
The refurbishment and reopening of Wallerawang station got cancelled. The New South Wales government have completely stuffed regional rail. They shouldn't have closed the lines down that they have in the first place.
A great idea but not likely to happen because the state government only considers regional NSW as a source of income to spend on Sydney, they tried selling off all the regional hospitals to fund the construction of Westmead and the early days of the port of Newcastle, they refused to spend money on wharfs and dredging and toward and making the harbour safer for shipping, but they demanded all the revenue the could get coal exports, and other shipping related fees
Yeah, that's the unfortunate reality. I'm just hoping that in my lifetime we do something about it.
A few months back they unhooked some coal cars on the line at Weston Bridge to as far back as the Kurri Industrial zone... about 1.2 KM of coal cars... not sure if they did it in other places... but probably not going to get them off any time soon... they will probably will up with trash before they clear the track.
A big bushfire ripped through there also, you’re probably aware, through South Weston and destroying Chocko’s old tyre shop.
I'm glad to see this topic being brought up, its a viably smart idea for the govt to invest in with all the area's growth. However, I don't think the line's would be dingle track one way as your early restart of service case says with the line alrrady having the room for double track. Signalling would most likely have to be installed if it was to reopen as a passanger route, therefore spending that bit of money in reopening the line would be all the worth in slashing travel time even more from your stats. Overall, good video
I somewhat agree. More than likely signalling would have to be installed, but it's not 100% essential for a base level service. Suburban and Intercity railcrew are trained on staff and ticket working, and it was/is used in a few places on the NSW passenger network. But I do agree with you, if the budget was there, I'd say double track and signal before starting to save the extra hassle down the line.
@@CityConnectionsMedia The money to double track the line -again- won't be allocated until it's a certainty that the service will work. The backlash against wasting that money will be huge.
Almost certainly, but you wouldn't really need to do so for many years yet. That's why I only focused on a single track service in my video.
Paige, Cessnock buses have regular daily services to Newcastle and the time taken is 1 hour and 20 minutes, longer than a car trip I grant you, but certainly not up to 4 hours! Where did you get that idea?
I think you must be mistaken. I talk about how long the bus takes at 10:45, and the number I give is 1hr 30 to Newcastle.
If I've said 4 hours somewhere in the video, that's a major mistake on my part.
@@CityConnectionsMedia I was not replying to you. I was replying to another comment by someone named Paige.
@@johannemilsom7503 Oh sorry, it appeared as a standalone comment so I just assumed it was for me.
If you wear to look at putting anything in at 6th street you would face an issue as there is an existing coal line you would run into. I see no reason that a station couldn’t be built in Quarrobolong St, near Edgeworth St, and make use of the coal line.
Greatly appreciated for the video you posted but your costings and estimates on what it cost just to bring the line back into good passenger safe condition would be soo over the top that it would still not be viable and why would they spend all that taxpayers $$$ when there is a perfeftly good working bus service to newcastle that serves our area and also is efficient without having to spend a cent on it.
yeah, a steel body replica of a CPH. Fleet of ten. Complete with water cooling.
Apparanty aurizon bought the railway
There signs are at East Greta signal box and they used the initial section for storage for coal wagons
I think you will find all they did was provide the freight trains, despite those signs.
@Stephen Hunter I've seen coal wagons parked up past the trade college on numerous times and a local told me they own the line now
@@thewombat7047 Aurizon no longer trades
@@stephenhunter70 thats interesting
$10million for a single railcar? You can get a superyacht for that!
Trains ain't cheap unfortunatley
Just say, for arguments sake, that a proposal went ahead to run a passenger service to Cessnock. You wouldn't need extra trains to run this service as, in my opinion, you could "steal" services that would normally terminate at Telarah and send them to Cessnock instead. Those Telarah services run something like every 30 minutes. Signalling could be Rail Vehicle Detection (RVD) with crossing loops upgrade East Greta and a new station with a passing loop at Gilleston Heights, maybe North Kurri Kurri, an island platform at Abermain, with Neath keeping it's current single track arrangement and use Caledonia station with a new 2 platform (Island) platform arrangement for Cessnock. If you want to extend the line further, maybe while housing growth north of Cessnock is in its infancy, run it close to the alignment of Wine Country Drive and service Cessnock Airport, Crowne Plaza, North Rothbury and bring the line to the mainline on the old Rothbury Riot Railway alignment to Branxton. Then you could run trains in both directions. Buses should only be feeder services for trains, not replace them outright.
That also could work, there might be some locals at Telarah who would oppose cutting their services, but it should be fine either way.
How about German style tram trains on the new Newcastle LRT then on the rail lines to Mailtand, Singleton, Cessnock.
That might be a future video...
Great video but please slow down your commentary.
Thanks!
I'll make sure to pace myself more in future videos.
I like alot of your ideas but They would have to build a new track because the current track is currently being used by coal trains Almost all day everyday I know because I live near the neath section of this line
That's odd, because to my knowledge the last coal mine closed 3 years ago. Maybe one of them has reopened? either way, passenger trains and coal trains can run together with the proper signalling.
@@CityConnectionsMedia The Austar coal mine is a coal mine located near Paxton, New South Wales. The mine has coal reserves amounting to 221 million tonnes of coking coal trains are due to the removal of reserves on site they said to me they expect it to end 2026 i guess we will see but yeah they have stopped mining operations so your correct on that part
Ah, that would make sense. I don't think they'll actually be restarting mining there,. The company that owns it announced that they've permanently closed it, and they're rehabilitating the site.
www.austarcoalmine.com.au/page/operations/
Coal trains don't run on that line and they haven't since 2020. I believe service vehicles do every now and then but trains certainly do not. I live in bellbird right next to the track and haven't heard a train for ages.
Lr/tram train from city/beach
The Newcastle light rail might be a future video too...
Rail to Cessnock! Cessnock will be desirable, bustling and vibrant in 2040.
I live in Aberdare, and a direct link to Sydney would be brilliant, I'd use it a lot. Seeya Rob
Everything old is new again.
Totally Agree-----One Hundred percent.
It should be a tourist railway at minimum.
There is a rail museum at Paterson who own 2 or 3 original motorcar carriages, and they were running a monthly service from Paterson to Neath, for lunch at Neath Hotel, and then back to Paterson but I think there was limited interest.
nice idea, but I'm sure the Aboriginal Land Council will come up with some sacred reason to halt progress.
I think that could be an interesting topic, so I might research it for a future video.
It would be cheaper to buy a fleet of cars and everyone who travels to Newcastle would get one free per household.
Probably not when you factor in environmental costs, or people who can't or don't want to drive. There's even the road maintenance factor, which can get real expensive.
thank you for video
Your dreaming this state government is bus mad there are no new Trains.
Slow down your narration. Professional announcers are trained to speak at about half normal speed. Your narration will be clearer if you do this. I found that I had to listen very carefully to catch everything, and I am a native Sydney sider.
I agree with you. I talk fast in real life, and I'm fairly new to all this. With my future videos, I'm going to try and pace myself more, and hopefully I can pull it off.
Thanks for brining my attention to this btw!
@lwf51 Thanks!
@@lwf51Despite what you said, I guarantee that you would not be able to transcribe at least 30% of this because it was less about him speaking too fast and more about him not speaking clearly enough. Many of the words were mushed together, making it difficult to understand, except for those who already understood the subject matter and could fill in the gaps.
For instance 1:33 “snap paper”?
Even the automatically generated Closed Captions couldn’t understand the mumbling.
@lwf51 I have no problem with the information. Clearly well-researched, as you note. I still think that speaking more slowly would improve the narration. I have worked with professional announcers and also have advised on professional presentations.
Might get your wish. If fossil fuelled cars are banned in favour of EVs we will go back 100 years to when the poor had no choice but use public transport. The value of EVs is linked to life remaining on the batteries. By the time they get down to the value low income earners can afford, they no longer function. Even the cheapest replacement battery pack is many times more than low income earners pay for a roadworthy fossil-fuelled car. With the poor forced off roads. they step back 100 years to when walking or public transport were the only options.
Problem: Political parties do little to support rail public transport. (RPT)
Reason: Donors to parties don't make profit from RPT, and advocates of RPT usually can't afford to donate large sums to political parties.
Solution: RISE UP MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS, AND OVERTHROW THE CORRUPT, SELF SERVING POLITICIANS... or just give more support to rail advocates. ;)
Won't happen.
Don't talk so fast
Mate, don't talk so fast, it's hard to understand what you're saying! From my understanding of the SMR, it was bought by allied coal in 1987 and only had contracted the government locomotives to haul the output from the mines in the Cessnock area so ARTC has no control over the line as it was classed as a private line. You're too young to understand that political parties are NOT interested in doing whats best for the communities they are SUPPOSED to serve, they just throw out these ideas, get people's hopes up only to say that they can't afford to do such projects as they have to spend $50 million on refurbishing the toilets in parliament house.
Thanks for the comment!
Talking too fast is something I'm aware of. I'm currently working on pacing myself more.
I also believe you're probably correct in regards to operations. I just couldn't find any solid details, so I chose to exclude it from the video to save time, and because it wasn't super relevant.
As for the too young thing, I may be young, but I'm well aware the government isn't the best... The town I grew up in was meant to have a high school by the time I started year 7. I graduated 5 years ago now, and the towns population has nearly doubled, so yeah...