The US has much more red tape than most other countries too, its wild how much regulation and how many agencies are involved in planning/approving projects.
This is also likely a very large cause of the shortage of housing in most American cities. It will never cease to amaze me how the entire country (and the vast majority of Canada) uniformly gets this wrong.
@@bearcubdaycare Not to mention out and out corruption like kickbacks for construction contracts/codes. There are all sorts of requirements the gov't makes builders do that adds cost forcing consumers to buy luxury/unnecessary products. Theres a reason things were cheaper to build a 100 years ago when we had a much smaller gov't (both local and federal)
Grand Paris Express stations are huge, full of "backstage" areas, maintenance and staff resting rooms, machinery space, etc. Like Villejuif Institut Gustave Roussy station (interchange M14 & M15) that is a giant underground cylinder filled with crisscrossing escalators of which a substantial width of the outer rim is allocated for maintenance and staff. Or Saint-Maur Créteil station, the deepest of the network that has a giant vertical shaft, 40% of which is not for passengers and reserved for maintenance, machinery and staff (not for elevators, these are in the remaining 60%). They all have substantial areas for maintenance and staff and are huge. Paradoxically, the ones that have the least "backstage" area are the few elevated ones. The new stations "collection" looks like an architectural contest gone wild ! Only 3 of the 68 are somewhat on the same model and they are of the few aboveground elevated ones. They'll share a *similar* , yet not copy and paste, design with different color schemes. The rest of stations is mostly deep underground, huge and unique with grandiose designs and large atriums. So the inflated cost of either MYC or Chicago subway expansions can't be found in the size of stations if you compare to Paris, nor in the complexity.
Right but in New York on the 2nd Ave subway at least the stations were mined caverns, which is the most expensive station construction technique; whereas I believe most in Paris were just cut-and-cover which is automatically cheaper? New York also has to build for much longer trains (180m) than Paris does on any of its Metro lines.
@@BigBlueMan118 It isn't, or at least it isn't an absolute fact. It would have been if you had compared cavern mining in solid rock to shallow cut-and-cover in dry & stable ground, but there's no such thing in Paris' current project. Out of the 200km of new lines in the GPE project, there are 180km bored deep underground, the 10% that's left is mostly on viaducts, with just a tiny bit at grade on the surface. New York's underground is mostly solid rock, which is much simpler than the Parisian soup and croutons... Paris' underground is a slushy Swiss cheese mix of near surface rising aquifers, damp sand pockets, layers and layers of former quarries (sandstone, gypsum, sulfur... often flooded), gravel, clay, voids, the occasional chalk marl, etc. Even if parts of the stations are cut-and-cover (not exactly though, it's mostly the deep bentonite molded diaphragm walls technique that was used for the main or top parts of stations), the lack of sufficient space on the surface for the station box' footprint meant that most required bored tunnel enlargement and mining in unstable, damp and marshy / marly ground. There's at most a mere handful of stations that had sufficient space to form a fully complete station box from the surface like Noisy - Champs, Paris suburbs are too densely built and populated for that to be possible. An interchange station like Villejuif IGR had its main station box made out of a giant underground cylindrical void from which vaulted platforms extend on 2 different deep levels. The cylinder was built using the bentonite molded diaphragm walls method and digging ,but the platforms required 4 mined vaulted caverns. Just like most stations on the South section of M15, they were inserted into a densely built urban fabric and often under other working train lines which prevented direct vertical access. The pretty bad soil conditions are the reason why a substantial number of the TBM's used were of the pressurized slurry (hydro-shield) or mud pressure balance type instead of the simpler mole or even earth pressure balance types. Plus, of course, frequent use of ground hard freezing techniques to try solidifying the ground to prevent it from instantly collapsing on itself and avoid floods (which happened). Several stations were a nightmare to build, like Saint-Maur Créteil, a very deep one located between two arms of a river loop, passing through the water table and requiring hard freeze mining, beam grouting, underground anchoring, buoyancy mitigation, etc. The surface footprint doesn't cover the platforms, of course... Add to that the many access, evac, and ventilation shafts located no further than 800 meters apart, requiring more than a hundred simultaneous building sites... There are something like 40 of those shafts just for the 16-station, 35km long South section of M15 (the giant loop line) that's expected to open in fall 2025 (should be around 100 or 110 shafts in total for the whole M15). About 40 shafts for the parts of M16 & M17 that have already been dug (should be around 50 or 55 in total). About 14 shafts on the already built part of M18 (should be at least 24 or 25 in total). And between 15 and 20 shafts for M14's GPE extensions. Let's not forget more than 20 TBM's working simultaneously and the various cold generation factories all pretty much at the same time. Workers needed to be trained like scuba divers in pressure chambers to access and maintain the cutting wheels under a pressure of 5+ bar. New York's underground is easy in comparison because solid rock simply doesn't fold on itself the instant it is dug. Is New York's subway required to have shafts every 800 meters or less? In the GPE's cost are also included almost a thousand escalators (current tally) and several hundreds of elevators. The Saint-Denis Pleyel interchange station opening in late June has something like 56 escalators and 2 or 3 dozen elevators, just to give you an idea... So no, it isn't simpler to build a tunnel or station in Paris than in New York. And cavern mining in solid ground is far from being the most expensive station construction technique. What's expensive is building anything, whatever the technique used, in the US, especially in New York, or pretty much in any English speaking developed country. While it is much cheaper in most developed non-English speaking countries, even when using much more complex techniques. Recently, a new gigantic underground cavernous cathedral was built for the new la Défense station on RER E's Western extension in Paris. (The RER is Paris regional heavy metro network that uses massive double-decker trains, it is famous for having several gigantic mined vaulted caverns called "underground cathedrals" under super densely built central Paris). The new la Défense E station required mining a giant 225+ meter long massive cavern without vertical access under a working expo center. They replaced and extended the foundations of the expo center (it remained open) by digging through an underground car park and mining between skyscraper foundations. It only cost a mere fraction of a simple station in New York. The same conditions in New York would have been even more expensive.
@@KyrilPG you could have saved yourself a lot of time my friend, no-one reads comments even half that long on RUclips! Noone is saying NY costs are not ridiculous, they are and at the present costs I would suggest they should really start Just looking at Light Rail and/or automated Metro, but setting up a new Agency that can actually build and ditching MTA for future expansion.
@@BigBlueMan118 I wanted to be precise and thorough, it's respecting the other interlocutor. I know it's not always popular to be precise and thorough, but way too often being short means being inprecise and leaving too much for interpretation. Light rail would be a terrible solution, like the IBX... But automated metro would be great. Almost the entire GPE project consists of fully automated driverless metro systems (except the 6km extension of M11, as the automation of M11 had been postponed). Some of the oldest lines, M1 and M4, have been converted to full driverless automation after being equipped with platform screen doors. They cost less to operate and have better reliability with very high frequency. Several lines are expected to be converted to full automation in the coming years. And RER lines, while still retaining a cab and a driver in it, are going more and more automated in the central sections. Like RER E, which was equipped with a centralized remote autopilot system on its central section while it was extended to the West. Or RER A, which has a signaling and autopilot system allowing trains to enter the station while the previous one hasn't even cleared the platform yet. I don't understand why people continue to accept the excessive infrastructure costs in the US. (Or Canada, UK, Australia and New Zealand to a slightly lesser extent than the US). But instead of reducing their aspirations and lowering their aim, they should completely overhaul the project and building process, from initial proposal to tender and proper construction. It's crazy to have very basic street-running light rail in the US costing more than deep bored metro through difficult terrain in Western Europe. Because overpaying for less is still overpaying... Public transportation infrastructure shouldn't be a get-rich-quick scheme for pretty much everyone involved (even remotely) in the process. In Paris, they've consolidated into a regional transit agency or authority called IDFM (Île-de-France Mobilités) that oversees everything. Operators like SNCF (the national railway operator) and RATP (historical Paris metro operator agency) and a few others, all answer to IDFM which decides the level of service, ticket and subscription prices, etc. The operators do not get paid by ticket sales but by IDFM, which receives the farebox. For the Grand Paris Express, they've also created and appointed a public entity initially called "Société du Grand Paris" (SGP, now "Société des Grands Projets" because it will oversee other major projects) that drives the project, ensures that the schedule and budget are respected, etc. The SGP awards tenders and controls the contractors. Once a section is complete, it is transferred by SGP to IDFM who appoints an operator - manager (RATP, Keolis, etc.) and then the infrastructure is inaugurated and opened to the public. IDFM now also owns the rolling stock. If an operator delivers poor service that does not meet IDFM's contract, it must pay penalties. So operators don't gain anything by reducing service quality or frequency, quite the opposite. Madrid also has a very efficient and interesting process for its metro developments, which is among the cheapest of developed countries. There's something broken in the process in pretty much all English speaking developed countries, as we've seen with Melbourne's Suburban Rail Loop project which has an unbelievably high cost, UK's HS2, Sydney Metro, New York 2nd Avenue subway or East Side Access, LA Metro, CAHSR, etc. Environmental regulations are stringent in EU, just like tunnel regulations (French ones are even more overly strict), so it's not the reason. The problem seems to be the entire project development process and the excessive judicialization in English speaking countries. Things that could be addressed and solved, if only enough political will was there to do so. Solving the problems behind excessive costs seems much better than settling for less at egregious price...
Similar problems in Canada too. It's taken 12 years to construct a light rail line in Toronto and it's gone massively overbudget. I should also mention that the agencies involved are now in a highly publicized legal battle (one of many). If anything, you're absolutely right. The Ridiculousness of it all is absurd. In the end it comes down to incompetence of the governance and management of these systems, if politicians simply stood out of the way and stopped using public transit as a generator of votes and election platform fuel, and let 100% more competent, well practiced, and trained professional engineers, architects, urban planners, transit planners, and public policy developers to build transit by themselves we wouldn't have these extremely ridiculous issues to deal with. Great video!!
"if politicians simply stood out of the way and stopped using public transit as a generator of votes" Then you will not have politicians advocating public transit projects.
Considering how small this channel is, the videos are beautifully edited, designed and gets to the point. This channel has the means to be very popular and influential. Keep up the amazing work!
@@UrbanDoxmeanwhile in china makes 6,000 Miles of toll roads and 1.000 Miles of high speed trains every year. where design, study and approval can be completed within 1 year. making the construction of 40% cheaper than in other countries. all implemented by a one central agency and built by a single state-owned enterprise
One way to create standard, yet unique stations, would be to use a "percent for the arts" program, where a certain percentage is set aside for things like sculptures, murals, etc, that can help make places feel unique while utilizing standard designs.
Great video. I don't know how you managed all the research and time to make this as it must have been incredibly time consuming. I think videos like this will inspire a new generation of transit and urbanist minded young people, and people of all ages, to demand more livable cities and better transit in north America. Sometimes I wonder, should those of us who want livable cities just move to countries where people care about that? But I do love my city of Los Angeles and want America to have the same (and better) transit options as other countries.
I honestly do sometimes wonder if people should just move to places like Europe but like you said Chicago means a lot to me and I would rather see it changed for the better than to abandon it. Thanks for watching!
The problem is that a thousand different companies have to be ''involved'' when building/planing something. Said in a simple language, everyone desperately wants a huge piece of a pie so they work together to inflate the cost so much that the one paying (government) just has to say yes, otherwise nothing will ever get constructed/fixed. Also they lobby that they are the only one with the skills so they can get money for nothing next time also.
Great video. Just a "small" correction, the Barcelona line is actually 2 lines (L9 and L10) that share the central section. The total length is 48km (30mi) mostly in tunnels (the last 5 stations on the L10 southern section are elrvatrd) and has a total of 50 stations. The main section is deep underground (up to 80m/252 feet deep). Tomreduce cost they boare one large tunnel and each direction is in a different level and the platforms use the same tunnel. Design is nice but basic and similar in all stations. Trains are automatic. The 7B€ cost is for the whole project, and more than triple than the original estimate You can at least take comfort from the construction time. It was supose to fully open in 2012 but problems during construction but mostly the 2008 world crisis stopped all funding. Today two separated section are open (with the 24 mentioned stations) and they are back at work on the connection between them. The full line should open in 2027, without a few of the stations that will open by 2029.
State Agencies, Counties, Cities, Towns, Boards, Commissions, Special Districts, Authorities, Consultants, Contractors, Regulators, Environmental Assessments, and the gravy train goes on ......
Don't mind me, just a Vancouverite strolling through this video reminding everyone that the 17km (10.5 mile) Langley Expo line extension is fully funded at $4 billion CAD ($3 Billion USD), will start construction next year, and will complete around 2029 providing fully automated metro service connecting downtown Vancouver to new suburban BRT lines with three minute headways. That said, we do have a rather expensive project, which is a completely tunnel bored automated extension of the Millennium Line down Broadway. This 6km (3.5 mile) subway will cost $3 billion CAD ($2.2 billion USD) will add six new stations. It will be completed in 2026. Translink has a completely different mentality to the CTA and MTA. Rather than just throwing endless funds at a problem, that usually get gobbled up by corrupt government officials, corrupt trade unions, and corrupt contractors, it has much more limited funds to work with. So, every project is managed and planned to a thoughtful degree that we build projects perfectly designed for our metropolis and try to make them cost effective as possible, focusing on slow and steady expansions to infrastructure while focusing on service above all else. We're a metro region of 2.8 million people with some of the most valuable real estate in the entire continent, so it really isn't that hard - you just have to be smart about it.
1000% Agree please bring some of that transit realness down to us here in New York Metro 🙏 I’ve been waiting for common sense transit infrastructure/strategic planning for what feels like a life time! Haha 😂
I'd say if it follows the image that most infrastructure projects have in the US of A then expect the price tag to be between 7.2 mil to 72 mil in the end. I agree with the over indulgence in building grand. The army core of engineers used to play a way more important role in these projects. Maybe its just me but I'd rather build them, get them going then upgrade to grand as they can. Great video!
Britain has this kind of problem too. Even where lines were used by freight until recently, with rails intact and signals all operational, with just the stations needed building and opening, the amount of hurdles to jump through, from business cases to consultations. And that’s before the funding starts!
Nice video, The only problem I saw was you kept saying the MTA. But it look like you was only talking about New York City Transit. I didn’t see you talk about MTA Metro-North at all. For the people that don’t know, The MTA is not only 26 subway lines (NYCT) It has 2 large MTA commuter railroads and a tiny railway on Staten Island. So when you come to New York don’t think when you see a subway train that’s the MTA and Long Island RR isn’t. The Long Island RR is just as much a part of MTA as the New York City Transit.
This is a good video, and I think you made a lot of good points. I agree with you about the architecture; LA is building an airport station for $1 billion, which is madness because it's just a people mover, but there it is. But I think there is more to it. Infrastructure in America is expensive no matter what it is, from transit, to sewers, electrical, and even highways are pretty crazy. I think a part of it is that we have much higher standards as you suggest, too many maintenance rooms/storage units, but also some good ones, like ADA accessibility. I think transit in particular is often inflated in order to kill it, but that's just me. There's also another part, which I'll term the "Infrastructure industrial complex," which is basically the swarms of contractors and lobbyists who push the government to throw money at projects, which they then consume while adding little value. Consider the infrastructure bill. It was basically written as a blank check for cities to lobby to fund whatever project they desire, as long as they meet certain criteria. Queue cities immediately writing bogus proposals with a bunch of nonsense buzzwords to justify their ludicrous projects, hoping whatever underpaid intern or entry-level bureacrat reviews it doesnt have time to thoroughly vet the project and it gets passed through. Anyways, this post is long enough now, thanks for your video and I hope you continue to spread the good word!
All your points hit the bullseye, especially the Infastructure industrial complex. All these contractors are being hired to basically do nothing. They eat away at the budget of these projects while contributing nothing to it. Now that I think about it i should have put that in my video! Anyways, thanks for watching!
Good video but lots of apples to oranges comparisons here. Your best segment is the ridiculousness of what and how much we build underground. The maintenence should all be on the surface; this is what other countries do. And you are completely correct that the opulance of some stations is over the top. The Red Line excuses from the CTA over the last several years are bogus. There should be exceptions for centerpiece projects like Grand Central Station which will be many people's first impression of the transit system. Finally, while the Second Avenue subway is hugely expensive, the sheer amount of crap underground in NYC that must be built around (both physically and politically) will make it more expensive per mile regardless. I agree that some of it is avoidable but cost comparisons per mile or kilometer becomes harder to compare in dense environments. A more similar system would be the Crossrail/ Elizabeth Line. Good stuff still.
That's still pretty bad excuses... Have you seen Paris' underground? (as in "under the ground', not subway). It's full of old quarries, archeological sites, aquifers, lose soil, sewers, flood protection systems, etc. Plus some medieval, human made, yet unmapped cavities. They had to build underground bridges through caves that were the result of old gypsum quarries, they had to freeze large and deep portions of underground to dig through because many of them are located under or below-touching aquifers... They also had to reinforce the ground before digging as it was way too lose and risked causing settlements and sinkholes on the surface. Paris underground is like Swiss cheese with pockets of molasses and burial sites. There is a popular say that "the bones of the 6+ millions cadavers in the (300km long) catacombs have more space than the people living in Parisian appartements". It doesn't come from imagination... As for the opulence of stations and how much is built underground : have you looked at the Grand Paris Express project ? Of the 200km / 125 miles of new lines and extensions, 90% are under the surface, deep underground, and dug mostly with mud / earth pressure balance TBM's. The biggest line, M15, is a huge 75km long loop line entirely deep underground. Only M17 has a bit over the ground and M18 a substantial part that is elevated. The stations of the GPE look like an architectural contest gone wild... with only 3 of the 68 that are somewhat on the same model, and these are the few that are elevated. The bunch of the rest are gigantic and deep stations, many of them with a plethora of "backstage" areas like maintenance and staff resting rooms. What is comparable to Crossrail is the Paris RER E West extension, as Crossrail is essentially London's take on the RER concept. The RER E West extension required extending 8 kilometers of tunnels from under Paris core historical business district to the tower filled modern business district called la Défense, running under some of the most expensive real estate in Paris. Plus a massive station (with a mezzanine like 2nd Ave stations) dug under an expo center, in-between towers, with "mole techniques" while everything continued operating above ground. Where London's Crossrail and NYC's 2nd avenue subway converge is on the humongously expensive price tag and slow pace. So the complexity, the proportion underground, the depth or the size of stations are not good excuses, especially compared to Paris' nightmarish underground soil and availability or freakishly high people density.
@@KyrilPG I agree. US prices are ridiculously high even when the soil is not crowded. Phase 1 of the Gateway Program, 4 km of tunnel under the Hudson River plus 3.2 km of track along wasteland up to Secaucus Junction is supposed to cost $16 billion. That is slightly more than the cost, adjusted for costumer price inflation, of 1211 km of HSR tracks including 17 km in tunnel, between Frethun at the mouth of the Chunnel tunnel and Marseille.
Not sure if anyone pointed it out yet, but the map at 4:35 is incorrect. The 125 St station will lie on 125 St and Park Av, not 125 St and Malcom X Blvd as shown in your video. In fact, the tail tracks at the far western end of the extension may only go as far as 5 Av I believe.
What it boils down to is an Inefficiency in Bureaucracy and only using specific contractors using strong arm tactics. Breaking up these good old boys will help in curtailing overages. Also, hire contractors that can deliver on time with a bonus and a steep penalty if they fail.
Union labor is also a problem when it comes to money as well. It's the most expensive way to go and always takes the longest because unions always do their best to get the most money for the least amount of work. It's absurdly common to see union workers doing nothing for hours on end while making ridiculous salaries.
It's the contracts and labor. For one, labor costs in America are astronomical compared to our counterparts. Also, the contracts. I work in government, and I know for sure that those who we contract for work tend to jack up their prices simply because they know they'll receive payment from the trusted government source. It's ridiculous and it does nothing but costing the taxpayer in the long run..
Why is it that the government tends to contract work rather than manage the labor internally? As mentioned in the video it sounds like they used to do that and other countries do that as well, but at some point we decided to contract everything out. When and why do you think that happened?
@@My-Opinion-Doesnt-Matter Lol, nope. Labor costs in NYC are about 2-3x higher than in Barcelona. My dude, median incomes in the UK are only as high as Mississippi's. And we consider Mississippi a dead-poor Southern state. And it compared to the likes of California and NY.
@@gregessex1851 Lol what are you even talking about? UK wages are lower than wages in the poorest US states. Can you take a second to google the nonsense that you post please?
The overstaffing is on purpose. In New York, Local 147 is the only game in town, and they can require the MTA pay for tons of unnecessary jobs at insane pay rates. It's called featherbedding.
04:05 "26 lines" Aren't those services? On ~11 lines (...i guess i'm confused by the nomenclature, but i can see how people wouldn't care one way or another 😂)
Yes, the Subway is the embodiment of chaos on the old system. There are lines where three services are going on the same tracks, if not four. Plus there are two systems, in the Subway system. It takes a lot of learning to be able to navigate the Subway.
Now it seems the MTA is backing off or scaling back on major builds, such as cancelling the rail extension to LGA and building the Interborough express as light rail to avoid tunnelling under a cemetery. Also, why do projects take so long to complete?
The Inter-borough express is of more importance than the LGA connection, given the two boroughs have limited connections that don’t include Manhattan. We should also be focusing on a Queens-Bronx connection. More connections between the boroughs is of greater importance than LGA to be honest.
@@Jorge-lh6px In a city the size of New York, doing both seems perfectly reasonable, even "aiming low". Why not complete it all the way to the Bronx, rather than kicking that down the road a few decades?
While they're going to build the Interborough Express as light rail I'm hoping they'll build it as a light metro or even a grade separated version of L.A.'s light rail rather than an ordinary tram.
the feds need to play their part in funding new transit projects so that the cost doesn’t fall entirely on state and local entities. the quicker a transit project gets fully funded, the quicker it gets completed, and therefore, the cheaper it ends up being.
Many states are equal to countries in their size all the ones mentioned in this video being some of them. The only part the feds should be playing is standardizing construction, streamlining the massive regulatory bloat and reserving funding for interstate projects and revitalizing small and medium towns instead of dumping more money in the richest places.
No, the federal government has no place in local matters. If anything we should be flipping how we tax people so the majority of taxes we pay go to the states instead of the federal government. When it comes to transportation the federal government only has a role in large interstate projects such as the interstate highway system. If local governments do not have enough taxes it is probably due to the federal government taking too big of a role in things it should not. A person in the southwest certainly should not be paying for New York to add another subway.
Hello, nice video ! I was just wondering, few things. In America you have the "The Boring Company", which as many Elon's company is pretty much vertically integrated, so theoretically, if the tunnels made large enough for the trains it would be possible to reduce the number of contractors involved in the project. It would have also the accidental collateral effect to make Elon produce something that the world actually needs. Secondly I think one of the major expenditure in those type of infrastructure is the feasibility study and planning studies which tend to become outdated, resulting in further expenditures for studies without having actually anything built. Provided that those documents are inevitable, would be reasonable to ask not to do any analysis until the first functional lot of the infrastructure is financed?
@@evancombs5159 Sorry, as Tesla was a company producing cars before Elon took over I, personally, do not consider this company as his creation neither as his property as it is a listed company. The maximum credit I can give to him is to be a good private equity investor and company promoter.
12:45 I'm not sure that statement is correct. In Montreal, the ARTM is meant to be the agency planning transit. It was recently created to replace the ATM and has a wider mandate. The fact is that the big engineering firms in the city just have more money to throw at their employees than the ARTM. They simply can't give competitive salaries on the tax payer's dime, and especially not performance bonuses and incentives. The ARTM ends up with peoples who really don't have the competence to do the job. Yeah, there's a few guys here and there who actually know what they are talking about, but generally speaking... Let's just say that after the report that they wrote to discredit REM de l'Est and their own attempt to create an alternate project proposal for Montreal Est, they dug a heck of a hole for themselves. Heck, it does not even feel like the peoples in there have basic self preservation instincts and its not like they really need it. Given the power that trade unions wield in Québec, they feel safe enough to be able to put out that kind of trash and still be employed at the end of the day.
meanwhile in china makes 6,000 Miles of toll roads and 1.000 Miles of high speed trains every year. where design, study and approval can be completed within 1 year. making the construction of 40% cheaper than in other countries. all implemented by a one central agency and built by a single state-owned enterprise
First of all it you want to be an expert you need to learn how to pronounce Houston, unlike the city is is house-ton like the place you live. Secondly the expense in any subway system is not the station it is the tunneling and local disruption. In NYC you are moving massive amounts of people per your own analysis. If you analyze the cost not on the bottom line but on the cost per rider you will find that the 2nd Ave line is one-quarter the cost of LA and other cities (there is a you-tube very well done on this). The lines are comparatively deep to attempt to disrupt the surface activity as much as possible and in NYC the bedrock is some of the hardest on earth. Then there is the activities to relocate utilities, secure foundations etc. Finally the contracts let by the MTA do not pay on how many hours the employees work, but rather the bid cost to complete the job. Any standing around is the contractors cost. However, if they were built by the government all the "standing around" costs are borne by the agency. In order to compare costs one cannot divide by mile but there are dozens of other factors. Wish it were as simple as you make it out to be.
An interesting video but you really have no idea about how contracting actually works. Contracts are generally let for a fixed price. Your comments about contractors standing around with nothing to do because they don’t care about how long it takes is simply BS and an pathetic insult to those involved. All countries contract out large projects. Not the least because pulling together a large workforce with all the necessary skills is impossible. Stick to Urban Planning because your attempt to beat up those who build the projects is mostly rubbish.
@@paddyodoor3090 No. But I don't think the problem is in the contractors. And if the contractor is indeed a problem, one can take a contract themselves and make it more efficient. I agree with you about the over-designing issues, though.
@@onetwothreeabc Well maybe hiring Chinese contractors is the solution. More experience and much cheaper 🙃. CNBC made it even more clear in their infrastructure documentary. Contractors are part of the inefficiencies. Like it or not. It does not neglect the craft but rather exposes bad policies and wrong incentives.
I propose many ambitious extensions if New York City’s MTA gets it’s act together, while sadly, they might not. If all my subway extensions were done, every route from numbers [1] to [28] should be used along with every letter in the alphabet including the {ACE}, {AG}, {BJ}, {BX}, {CJ}, {CSX}, {DJ}, {DK}, {DL}, {DQ}, {EJ}, {FH}, {FL}, {HUG}, {IBX}, {IG}, {JZ}, {KP}, {LJ}, {LS}, {MB}, {MJ}, {MS}, {NX}, {OT}, {PT}, {PG}, {QB}, {QJ}, {QT}, {QR}, {RF}, {RJ}, {RV}, {TX}, {VP}, {XD}, {YF}, {YT}, {YX}, & {ZK}.
The US has much more red tape than most other countries too, its wild how much regulation and how many agencies are involved in planning/approving projects.
This is also likely a very large cause of the shortage of housing in most American cities. It will never cease to amaze me how the entire country (and the vast majority of Canada) uniformly gets this wrong.
It's useful to view the red tape as corruption...by forcing a project to get your sign off, and dragging it out, you get job security.
@@bearcubdaycare Not to mention out and out corruption like kickbacks for construction contracts/codes. There are all sorts of requirements the gov't makes builders do that adds cost forcing consumers to buy luxury/unnecessary products. Theres a reason things were cheaper to build a 100 years ago when we had a much smaller gov't (both local and federal)
they did it to make it impossible to build anything other than suburbs and roads
dont forget about the NIMBYs!
Grand Paris Express stations are huge, full of "backstage" areas, maintenance and staff resting rooms, machinery space, etc.
Like Villejuif Institut Gustave Roussy station (interchange M14 & M15) that is a giant underground cylinder filled with crisscrossing escalators of which a substantial width of the outer rim is allocated for maintenance and staff.
Or Saint-Maur Créteil station, the deepest of the network that has a giant vertical shaft, 40% of which is not for passengers and reserved for maintenance, machinery and staff (not for elevators, these are in the remaining 60%).
They all have substantial areas for maintenance and staff and are huge. Paradoxically, the ones that have the least "backstage" area are the few elevated ones.
The new stations "collection" looks like an architectural contest gone wild ! Only 3 of the 68 are somewhat on the same model and they are of the few aboveground elevated ones. They'll share a *similar* , yet not copy and paste, design with different color schemes.
The rest of stations is mostly deep underground, huge and unique with grandiose designs and large atriums.
So the inflated cost of either MYC or Chicago subway expansions can't be found in the size of stations if you compare to Paris, nor in the complexity.
Right but in New York on the 2nd Ave subway at least the stations were mined caverns, which is the most expensive station construction technique; whereas I believe most in Paris were just cut-and-cover which is automatically cheaper? New York also has to build for much longer trains (180m) than Paris does on any of its Metro lines.
@@BigBlueMan118 It isn't, or at least it isn't an absolute fact.
It would have been if you had compared cavern mining in solid rock to shallow cut-and-cover in dry & stable ground, but there's no such thing in Paris' current project.
Out of the 200km of new lines in the GPE project, there are 180km bored deep underground, the 10% that's left is mostly on viaducts, with just a tiny bit at grade on the surface.
New York's underground is mostly solid rock, which is much simpler than the Parisian soup and croutons...
Paris' underground is a slushy Swiss cheese mix of near surface rising aquifers, damp sand pockets, layers and layers of former quarries (sandstone, gypsum, sulfur... often flooded), gravel, clay, voids, the occasional chalk marl, etc.
Even if parts of the stations are cut-and-cover (not exactly though, it's mostly the deep bentonite molded diaphragm walls technique that was used for the main or top parts of stations), the lack of sufficient space on the surface for the station box' footprint meant that most required bored tunnel enlargement and mining in unstable, damp and marshy / marly ground.
There's at most a mere handful of stations that had sufficient space to form a fully complete station box from the surface like Noisy - Champs, Paris suburbs are too densely built and populated for that to be possible.
An interchange station like Villejuif IGR had its main station box made out of a giant underground cylindrical void from which vaulted platforms extend on 2 different deep levels. The cylinder was built using the bentonite molded diaphragm walls method and digging ,but the platforms required 4 mined vaulted caverns.
Just like most stations on the South section of M15, they were inserted into a densely built urban fabric and often under other working train lines which prevented direct vertical access.
The pretty bad soil conditions are the reason why a substantial number of the TBM's used were of the pressurized slurry (hydro-shield) or mud pressure balance type instead of the simpler mole or even earth pressure balance types.
Plus, of course, frequent use of ground hard freezing techniques to try solidifying the ground to prevent it from instantly collapsing on itself and avoid floods (which happened).
Several stations were a nightmare to build, like Saint-Maur Créteil, a very deep one located between two arms of a river loop, passing through the water table and requiring hard freeze mining, beam grouting, underground anchoring, buoyancy mitigation, etc.
The surface footprint doesn't cover the platforms, of course...
Add to that the many access, evac, and ventilation shafts located no further than 800 meters apart, requiring more than a hundred simultaneous building sites...
There are something like 40 of those shafts just for the 16-station, 35km long South section of M15 (the giant loop line) that's expected to open in fall 2025 (should be around 100 or 110 shafts in total for the whole M15).
About 40 shafts for the parts of M16 & M17 that have already been dug (should be around 50 or 55 in total).
About 14 shafts on the already built part of M18 (should be at least 24 or 25 in total).
And between 15 and 20 shafts for M14's GPE extensions.
Let's not forget more than 20 TBM's working simultaneously and the various cold generation factories all pretty much at the same time.
Workers needed to be trained like scuba divers in pressure chambers to access and maintain the cutting wheels under a pressure of 5+ bar.
New York's underground is easy in comparison because solid rock simply doesn't fold on itself the instant it is dug.
Is New York's subway required to have shafts every 800 meters or less?
In the GPE's cost are also included almost a thousand escalators (current tally) and several hundreds of elevators. The Saint-Denis Pleyel interchange station opening in late June has something like 56 escalators and 2 or 3 dozen elevators, just to give you an idea...
So no, it isn't simpler to build a tunnel or station in Paris than in New York. And cavern mining in solid ground is far from being the most expensive station construction technique.
What's expensive is building anything, whatever the technique used, in the US, especially in New York, or pretty much in any English speaking developed country.
While it is much cheaper in most developed non-English speaking countries, even when using much more complex techniques.
Recently, a new gigantic underground cavernous cathedral was built for the new la Défense station on RER E's Western extension in Paris. (The RER is Paris regional heavy metro network that uses massive double-decker trains, it is famous for having several gigantic mined vaulted caverns called "underground cathedrals" under super densely built central Paris).
The new la Défense E station required mining a giant 225+ meter long massive cavern without vertical access under a working expo center. They replaced and extended the foundations of the expo center (it remained open) by digging through an underground car park and mining between skyscraper foundations.
It only cost a mere fraction of a simple station in New York.
The same conditions in New York would have been even more expensive.
@@KyrilPG you could have saved yourself a lot of time my friend, no-one reads comments even half that long on RUclips! Noone is saying NY costs are not ridiculous, they are and at the present costs I would suggest they should really start Just looking at Light Rail and/or automated Metro, but setting up a new Agency that can actually build and ditching MTA for future expansion.
@@BigBlueMan118 I wanted to be precise and thorough, it's respecting the other interlocutor. I know it's not always popular to be precise and thorough, but way too often being short means being inprecise and leaving too much for interpretation.
Light rail would be a terrible solution, like the IBX...
But automated metro would be great.
Almost the entire GPE project consists of fully automated driverless metro systems (except the 6km extension of M11, as the automation of M11 had been postponed). Some of the oldest lines, M1 and M4, have been converted to full driverless automation after being equipped with platform screen doors. They cost less to operate and have better reliability with very high frequency. Several lines are expected to be converted to full automation in the coming years.
And RER lines, while still retaining a cab and a driver in it, are going more and more automated in the central sections. Like RER E, which was equipped with a centralized remote autopilot system on its central section while it was extended to the West.
Or RER A, which has a signaling and autopilot system allowing trains to enter the station while the previous one hasn't even cleared the platform yet.
I don't understand why people continue to accept the excessive infrastructure costs in the US. (Or Canada, UK, Australia and New Zealand to a slightly lesser extent than the US).
But instead of reducing their aspirations and lowering their aim, they should completely overhaul the project and building process, from initial proposal to tender and proper construction.
It's crazy to have very basic street-running light rail in the US costing more than deep bored metro through difficult terrain in Western Europe.
Because overpaying for less is still overpaying...
Public transportation infrastructure shouldn't be a get-rich-quick scheme for pretty much everyone involved (even remotely) in the process.
In Paris, they've consolidated into a regional transit agency or authority called IDFM (Île-de-France Mobilités) that oversees everything. Operators like SNCF (the national railway operator) and RATP (historical Paris metro operator agency) and a few others, all answer to IDFM which decides the level of service, ticket and subscription prices, etc.
The operators do not get paid by ticket sales but by IDFM, which receives the farebox.
For the Grand Paris Express, they've also created and appointed a public entity initially called "Société du Grand Paris" (SGP, now "Société des Grands Projets" because it will oversee other major projects) that drives the project, ensures that the schedule and budget are respected, etc.
The SGP awards tenders and controls the contractors.
Once a section is complete, it is transferred by SGP to IDFM who appoints an operator - manager (RATP, Keolis, etc.) and then the infrastructure is inaugurated and opened to the public. IDFM now also owns the rolling stock.
If an operator delivers poor service that does not meet IDFM's contract, it must pay penalties. So operators don't gain anything by reducing service quality or frequency, quite the opposite.
Madrid also has a very efficient and interesting process for its metro developments, which is among the cheapest of developed countries.
There's something broken in the process in pretty much all English speaking developed countries, as we've seen with Melbourne's Suburban Rail Loop project which has an unbelievably high cost, UK's HS2, Sydney Metro, New York 2nd Avenue subway or East Side Access, LA Metro, CAHSR, etc.
Environmental regulations are stringent in EU, just like tunnel regulations (French ones are even more overly strict), so it's not the reason.
The problem seems to be the entire project development process and the excessive judicialization in English speaking countries.
Things that could be addressed and solved, if only enough political will was there to do so.
Solving the problems behind excessive costs seems much better than settling for less at egregious price...
Similar problems in Canada too. It's taken 12 years to construct a light rail line in Toronto and it's gone massively overbudget. I should also mention that the agencies involved are now in a highly publicized legal battle (one of many). If anything, you're absolutely right. The Ridiculousness of it all is absurd. In the end it comes down to incompetence of the governance and management of these systems, if politicians simply stood out of the way and stopped using public transit as a generator of votes and election platform fuel, and let 100% more competent, well practiced, and trained professional engineers, architects, urban planners, transit planners, and public policy developers to build transit by themselves we wouldn't have these extremely ridiculous issues to deal with. Great video!!
"if politicians simply stood out of the way and stopped using public transit as a generator of votes"
Then you will not have politicians advocating public transit projects.
Considering how small this channel is, the videos are beautifully edited, designed and gets to the point. This channel has the means to be very popular and influential. Keep up the amazing work!
Thank you!
@@UrbanDox I’m looking forward to more transit talk content! 😁
@@UrbanDoxmeanwhile in china makes 6,000 Miles of toll roads and 1.000 Miles of high speed trains every year. where design, study and approval can be completed within 1 year. making the construction of 40% cheaper than in other countries.
all implemented by a one central agency and built by a single state-owned enterprise
One way to create standard, yet unique stations, would be to use a "percent for the arts" program, where a certain percentage is set aside for things like sculptures, murals, etc, that can help make places feel unique while utilizing standard designs.
This just in. The MTA now has contractors for the production of tickets in the ticket machines. Construction prices are through the roof 🤣
Great video. I don't know how you managed all the research and time to make this as it must have been incredibly time consuming. I think videos like this will inspire a new generation of transit and urbanist minded young people, and people of all ages, to demand more livable cities and better transit in north America. Sometimes I wonder, should those of us who want livable cities just move to countries where people care about that? But I do love my city of Los Angeles and want America to have the same (and better) transit options as other countries.
I honestly do sometimes wonder if people should just move to places like Europe but like you said Chicago means a lot to me and I would rather see it changed for the better than to abandon it. Thanks for watching!
"should those of us who want livable cities just move to countries where people care about that?"
Yes. That is your freedom.
@@UrbanDox "I honestly do sometimes wonder if people should just move to places like Europe"
NotJusBikes did it. It's voting with your feet.
I think most of the world also uses contractors, but often just one big contractor.
Right but using a lot of smaller contractors with no agency oversight makes projects go overbudget and take a lot longer to construct
@@UrbanDox Dude, what are you talking about? There's literally always agency oversight.
Stop spreading misinformation. This is not a thing.
The problem is that a thousand different companies have to be ''involved'' when building/planing something. Said in a simple language, everyone desperately wants a huge piece of a pie so they work together to inflate the cost so much that the one paying (government) just has to say yes, otherwise nothing will ever get constructed/fixed. Also they lobby that they are the only one with the skills so they can get money for nothing next time also.
Great video.
Just a "small" correction, the Barcelona line is actually 2 lines (L9 and L10) that share the central section. The total length is 48km (30mi) mostly in tunnels (the last 5 stations on the L10 southern section are elrvatrd) and has a total of 50 stations. The main section is deep underground (up to 80m/252 feet deep). Tomreduce cost they boare one large tunnel and each direction is in a different level and the platforms use the same tunnel. Design is nice but basic and similar in all stations. Trains are automatic.
The 7B€ cost is for the whole project, and more than triple than the original estimate You can at least take comfort from the construction time. It was supose to fully open in 2012 but problems during construction but mostly the 2008 world crisis stopped all funding. Today two separated section are open (with the 24 mentioned stations) and they are back at work on the connection between them. The full line should open in 2027, without a few of the stations that will open by 2029.
The problem. Corruption!!! Big or small.
State Agencies, Counties, Cities, Towns, Boards, Commissions, Special Districts, Authorities, Consultants, Contractors, Regulators, Environmental Assessments, and the gravy train goes on ......
Don't mind me, just a Vancouverite strolling through this video reminding everyone that the 17km (10.5 mile) Langley Expo line extension is fully funded at $4 billion CAD ($3 Billion USD), will start construction next year, and will complete around 2029 providing fully automated metro service connecting downtown Vancouver to new suburban BRT lines with three minute headways. That said, we do have a rather expensive project, which is a completely tunnel bored automated extension of the Millennium Line down Broadway. This 6km (3.5 mile) subway will cost $3 billion CAD ($2.2 billion USD) will add six new stations. It will be completed in 2026. Translink has a completely different mentality to the CTA and MTA. Rather than just throwing endless funds at a problem, that usually get gobbled up by corrupt government officials, corrupt trade unions, and corrupt contractors, it has much more limited funds to work with. So, every project is managed and planned to a thoughtful degree that we build projects perfectly designed for our metropolis and try to make them cost effective as possible, focusing on slow and steady expansions to infrastructure while focusing on service above all else. We're a metro region of 2.8 million people with some of the most valuable real estate in the entire continent, so it really isn't that hard - you just have to be smart about it.
1000% Agree please bring some of that transit realness down to us here in New York Metro 🙏 I’ve been waiting for common sense transit infrastructure/strategic planning for what feels like a life time! Haha 😂
Great video! Thanks for sharing :]
Hopefully we can bring some rail industry back to the U.S. again soon!
I'd say if it follows the image that most infrastructure projects have in the US of A then expect the price tag to be between 7.2 mil to 72 mil in the end.
I agree with the over indulgence in building grand. The army core of engineers used to play a way more important role in these projects. Maybe its just me but I'd rather build them, get them going then upgrade to grand as they can. Great video!
Britain has this kind of problem too. Even where lines were used by freight until recently, with rails intact and signals all operational, with just the stations needed building and opening, the amount of hurdles to jump through, from business cases to consultations. And that’s before the funding starts!
Nice video, The only problem I saw was you kept saying the MTA. But it look like you was only talking about New York City Transit. I didn’t see you talk about MTA Metro-North at all. For the people that don’t know, The MTA is not only 26 subway lines (NYCT) It has 2 large MTA commuter railroads and a tiny railway on Staten Island. So when you come to New York don’t think when you see a subway train that’s the MTA and Long Island RR isn’t. The Long Island RR is just as much a part of MTA as the New York City Transit.
Great video. I really don't understand why the US cities don't have their own teams. it just seems insane.
This is a good video, and I think you made a lot of good points. I agree with you about the architecture; LA is building an airport station for $1 billion, which is madness because it's just a people mover, but there it is.
But I think there is more to it. Infrastructure in America is expensive no matter what it is, from transit, to sewers, electrical, and even highways are pretty crazy. I think a part of it is that we have much higher standards as you suggest, too many maintenance rooms/storage units, but also some good ones, like ADA accessibility. I think transit in particular is often inflated in order to kill it, but that's just me.
There's also another part, which I'll term the "Infrastructure industrial complex," which is basically the swarms of contractors and lobbyists who push the government to throw money at projects, which they then consume while adding little value.
Consider the infrastructure bill. It was basically written as a blank check for cities to lobby to fund whatever project they desire, as long as they meet certain criteria. Queue cities immediately writing bogus proposals with a bunch of nonsense buzzwords to justify their ludicrous projects, hoping whatever underpaid intern or entry-level bureacrat reviews it doesnt have time to thoroughly vet the project and it gets passed through.
Anyways, this post is long enough now, thanks for your video and I hope you continue to spread the good word!
All your points hit the bullseye, especially the Infastructure industrial complex. All these contractors are being hired to basically do nothing. They eat away at the budget of these projects while contributing nothing to it. Now that I think about it i should have put that in my video! Anyways, thanks for watching!
the fact that nyc is the best we have currently is crazy compared to most other large cities in the world. the country is a joke
And a sick practical joke on the USAmerican people at that. The only ones laughing are the corporate elites 😡
Good video but lots of apples to oranges comparisons here. Your best segment is the ridiculousness of what and how much we build underground. The maintenence should all be on the surface; this is what other countries do. And you are completely correct that the opulance of some stations is over the top. The Red Line excuses from the CTA over the last several years are bogus. There should be exceptions for centerpiece projects like Grand Central Station which will be many people's first impression of the transit system. Finally, while the Second Avenue subway is hugely expensive, the sheer amount of crap underground in NYC that must be built around (both physically and politically) will make it more expensive per mile regardless. I agree that some of it is avoidable but cost comparisons per mile or kilometer becomes harder to compare in dense environments. A more similar system would be the Crossrail/ Elizabeth Line. Good stuff still.
That's still pretty bad excuses...
Have you seen Paris' underground? (as in "under the ground', not subway).
It's full of old quarries, archeological sites, aquifers, lose soil, sewers, flood protection systems, etc. Plus some medieval, human made, yet unmapped cavities.
They had to build underground bridges through caves that were the result of old gypsum quarries, they had to freeze large and deep portions of underground to dig through because many of them are located under or below-touching aquifers...
They also had to reinforce the ground before digging as it was way too lose and risked causing settlements and sinkholes on the surface.
Paris underground is like Swiss cheese with pockets of molasses and burial sites.
There is a popular say that "the bones of the 6+ millions cadavers in the (300km long) catacombs have more space than the people living in Parisian appartements". It doesn't come from imagination...
As for the opulence of stations and how much is built underground : have you looked at the Grand Paris Express project ? Of the 200km / 125 miles of new lines and extensions, 90% are under the surface, deep underground, and dug mostly with mud / earth pressure balance TBM's.
The biggest line, M15, is a huge 75km long loop line entirely deep underground. Only M17 has a bit over the ground and M18 a substantial part that is elevated.
The stations of the GPE look like an architectural contest gone wild... with only 3 of the 68 that are somewhat on the same model, and these are the few that are elevated.
The bunch of the rest are gigantic and deep stations, many of them with a plethora of "backstage" areas like maintenance and staff resting rooms.
What is comparable to Crossrail is the Paris RER E West extension, as Crossrail is essentially London's take on the RER concept.
The RER E West extension required extending 8 kilometers of tunnels from under Paris core historical business district to the tower filled modern business district called la Défense, running under some of the most expensive real estate in Paris. Plus a massive station (with a mezzanine like 2nd Ave stations) dug under an expo center, in-between towers, with "mole techniques" while everything continued operating above ground.
Where London's Crossrail and NYC's 2nd avenue subway converge is on the humongously expensive price tag and slow pace.
So the complexity, the proportion underground, the depth or the size of stations are not good excuses, especially compared to Paris' nightmarish underground soil and availability or freakishly high people density.
@@KyrilPG I agree. US prices are ridiculously high even when the soil is not crowded. Phase 1 of the Gateway Program, 4 km of tunnel under the Hudson River plus 3.2 km of track along wasteland up to Secaucus Junction is supposed to cost $16 billion. That is slightly more than the cost, adjusted for costumer price inflation, of 1211 km of HSR tracks including 17 km in tunnel, between Frethun at the mouth of the Chunnel tunnel and Marseille.
Not sure if anyone pointed it out yet, but the map at 4:35 is incorrect. The 125 St station will lie on 125 St and Park Av, not 125 St and Malcom X Blvd as shown in your video. In fact, the tail tracks at the far western end of the extension may only go as far as 5 Av I believe.
What it boils down to is an Inefficiency in Bureaucracy and only using specific contractors using strong arm tactics. Breaking up these good old boys will help in curtailing overages. Also, hire contractors that can deliver on time with a bonus and a steep penalty if they fail.
Union labor is also a problem when it comes to money as well. It's the most expensive way to go and always takes the longest because unions always do their best to get the most money for the least amount of work. It's absurdly common to see union workers doing nothing for hours on end while making ridiculous salaries.
It's the contracts and labor. For one, labor costs in America are astronomical compared to our counterparts. Also, the contracts. I work in government, and I know for sure that those who we contract for work tend to jack up their prices simply because they know they'll receive payment from the trusted government source. It's ridiculous and it does nothing but costing the taxpayer in the long run..
Why is it that the government tends to contract work rather than manage the labor internally? As mentioned in the video it sounds like they used to do that and other countries do that as well, but at some point we decided to contract everything out. When and why do you think that happened?
The labor price is almost the same in developed countries, it's even higher in some European countries.
The US has some of the lowest wages in the western world, particularly at the lower end of the scale.
@@My-Opinion-Doesnt-Matter Lol, nope. Labor costs in NYC are about 2-3x higher than in Barcelona.
My dude, median incomes in the UK are only as high as Mississippi's. And we consider Mississippi a dead-poor Southern state. And it compared to the likes of California and NY.
@@gregessex1851 Lol what are you even talking about? UK wages are lower than wages in the poorest US states. Can you take a second to google the nonsense that you post please?
Very good video, I see you reaching 100 000 subscribers within the next year or two!
That would be a dream!
I finally rode in the completed section of the Second Avenue subway.
The overstaffing is on purpose. In New York, Local 147 is the only game in town, and they can require the MTA pay for tons of unnecessary jobs at insane pay rates. It's called featherbedding.
you should talk about the Eglington crosstown LRT in Toronto that project is a nightmare💀
the idea that every new transit line must be a glorious and exciting project wastes so much money
the cta south lie extension should have went to hegwich to meet the commuter trains to indiana
04:05 "26 lines"
Aren't those services?
On ~11 lines
(...i guess i'm confused by the nomenclature,
but i can see how people wouldn't care one way or another 😂)
Lol yeah i meant to say services
Yes, the Subway is the embodiment of chaos on the old system. There are lines where three services are going on the same tracks, if not four. Plus there are two systems, in the Subway system. It takes a lot of learning to be able to navigate the Subway.
I ALREADY know why...... CORRUPTION.
We just fell😂 off the turnip truck
love the outro music. Can I get a link / name / whatever other info about the band / singer / performer / source / whatever?
Sure! Its Cold War Games by Gabriel Lewis. Glad you like it as much as i do!
@@UrbanDox thanks :)
Now it seems the MTA is backing off or scaling back on major builds, such as cancelling the rail extension to LGA and building the Interborough express as light rail to avoid tunnelling under a cemetery. Also, why do projects take so long to complete?
The Inter-borough express is of more importance than the LGA connection, given the two boroughs have limited connections that don’t include Manhattan. We should also be focusing on a Queens-Bronx connection. More connections between the boroughs is of greater importance than LGA to be honest.
@@Jorge-lh6px In a city the size of New York, doing both seems perfectly reasonable, even "aiming low". Why not complete it all the way to the Bronx, rather than kicking that down the road a few decades?
While they're going to build the Interborough Express as light rail I'm hoping they'll build it as a light metro or even a grade separated version of L.A.'s light rail rather than an ordinary tram.
@@edwardmiessner6502 it is supposed to be entirely grade separated except for one street running segment in order to avoid tunneling under a cemetery.
New York really needs more toilets on the subway system (or alternatively in the cars).
the feds need to play their part in funding new transit projects so that the cost doesn’t fall entirely on state and local entities. the quicker a transit project gets fully funded, the quicker it gets completed, and therefore, the cheaper it ends up being.
In the car centric United States!?
Many states are equal to countries in their size all the ones mentioned in this video being some of them. The only part the feds should be playing is standardizing construction, streamlining the massive regulatory bloat and reserving funding for interstate projects and revitalizing small and medium towns instead of dumping more money in the richest places.
No, the federal government has no place in local matters. If anything we should be flipping how we tax people so the majority of taxes we pay go to the states instead of the federal government. When it comes to transportation the federal government only has a role in large interstate projects such as the interstate highway system. If local governments do not have enough taxes it is probably due to the federal government taking too big of a role in things it should not. A person in the southwest certainly should not be paying for New York to add another subway.
@@evancombs5159 would this apply to an intercity rail system?
@@GenericUrbanism does it involve interstate travel or intrastate travel?
i made the image that appears at the top of the curbed article at 7:13
it's not important. just fun seeing all the different places our work ends up.
Great video! Just one problem. It’s pronounced “HOWSTON” (Not Houston as in the city in Texas) ❤hahahaa 😂😂😂😂😂
Hello, nice video !
I was just wondering, few things.
In America you have the "The Boring Company", which as many Elon's company is pretty much vertically integrated, so theoretically, if the tunnels made large enough for the trains it would be possible to reduce the number of contractors involved in the project. It would have also the accidental collateral effect to make Elon produce something that the world actually needs.
Secondly I think one of the major expenditure in those type of infrastructure is the feasibility study and planning studies which tend to become outdated, resulting in further expenditures for studies without having actually anything built. Provided that those documents are inevitable, would be reasonable to ask not to do any analysis until the first functional lot of the infrastructure is financed?
Are you saying electric vehicles and solar panels are not things the world actually needs?
@@evancombs5159 Sorry, as Tesla was a company producing cars before Elon took over I, personally, do not consider this company as his creation neither as his property as it is a listed company.
The maximum credit I can give to him is to be a good private equity investor and company promoter.
Actually face 2 don’t need a lot of money because they already completed on the abandon structure of the old second Avenue subway tunnels
12:45 I'm not sure that statement is correct. In Montreal, the ARTM is meant to be the agency planning transit. It was recently created to replace the ATM and has a wider mandate. The fact is that the big engineering firms in the city just have more money to throw at their employees than the ARTM. They simply can't give competitive salaries on the tax payer's dime, and especially not performance bonuses and incentives. The ARTM ends up with peoples who really don't have the competence to do the job. Yeah, there's a few guys here and there who actually know what they are talking about, but generally speaking... Let's just say that after the report that they wrote to discredit REM de l'Est and their own attempt to create an alternate project proposal for Montreal Est, they dug a heck of a hole for themselves. Heck, it does not even feel like the peoples in there have basic self preservation instincts and its not like they really need it. Given the power that trade unions wield in Québec, they feel safe enough to be able to put out that kind of trash and still be employed at the end of the day.
The reason for these costs, inflation!!!
Thats somewhat of a reason but you have to remember a lot of projects were constructed far before inflation skyrocketed and still faced these issues.
@@UrbanDox Yeah that I see!!
meanwhile in china makes 6,000 Miles of toll roads and 1.000 Miles of high speed trains every year. where design, study and approval can be completed within 1 year. making the construction of 40% cheaper than in other countries.
all implemented by a one central agency and built by a single state-owned enterprise
First of all it you want to be an expert you need to learn how to pronounce Houston, unlike the city is is house-ton like the place you live. Secondly the expense in any subway system is not the station it is the tunneling and local disruption. In NYC you are moving massive amounts of people per your own analysis. If you analyze the cost not on the bottom line but on the cost per rider you will find that the 2nd Ave line is one-quarter the cost of LA and other cities (there is a you-tube very well done on this). The lines are comparatively deep to attempt to disrupt the surface activity as much as possible and in NYC the bedrock is some of the hardest on earth. Then there is the activities to relocate utilities, secure foundations etc. Finally the contracts let by the MTA do not pay on how many hours the employees work, but rather the bid cost to complete the job. Any standing around is the contractors cost. However, if they were built by the government all the "standing around" costs are borne by the agency. In order to compare costs one cannot divide by mile but there are dozens of other factors. Wish it were as simple as you make it out to be.
i guess needing to build while limiting disruption to daily city life
Plain and simple greed.
Aka tell albany to regulate the mta
Albany controls the MTA you know.
@@GenericUrbanism yes that is the point
Easy. Unions.
🤭 Promo sm
USA doesn’t know how to build
First wow. 😆
An interesting video but you really have no idea about how contracting actually works. Contracts are generally let for a fixed price. Your comments about contractors standing around with nothing to do because they don’t care about how long it takes is simply BS and an pathetic insult to those involved. All countries contract out large projects. Not the least because pulling together a large workforce with all the necessary skills is impossible. Stick to Urban Planning because your attempt to beat up those who build the projects is mostly rubbish.
Why don't you take a shovel and start working for the project?
Oh eff off do you really need to be building the transit to take issue with the inefficiencies of the construction of transit
@@paddyodoor3090 No. But I don't think the problem is in the contractors. And if the contractor is indeed a problem, one can take a contract themselves and make it more efficient.
I agree with you about the over-designing issues, though.
@@paddyodoor3090 Do you know how expensive it is just to hire someone to paint your room?
@@onetwothreeabc Well maybe hiring Chinese contractors is the solution. More experience and much cheaper 🙃. CNBC made it even more clear in their infrastructure documentary. Contractors are part of the inefficiencies. Like it or not. It does not neglect the craft but rather exposes bad policies and wrong incentives.
@@sunrae3971 If you hire Chinese or other foreign nationals, you can not brag about making "jobs". So it's a non-starter for many politicians.
You can't eat the cake and have it.
I propose many ambitious extensions if New York City’s MTA gets it’s act together, while sadly, they might not. If all my subway extensions were done, every route from numbers [1] to [28] should be used along with every letter in the alphabet including the {ACE}, {AG}, {BJ}, {BX}, {CJ}, {CSX}, {DJ}, {DK}, {DL}, {DQ}, {EJ}, {FH}, {FL}, {HUG}, {IBX}, {IG}, {JZ}, {KP}, {LJ}, {LS}, {MB}, {MJ}, {MS}, {NX}, {OT}, {PT}, {PG}, {QB}, {QJ}, {QT}, {QR}, {RF}, {RJ}, {RV}, {TX}, {VP}, {XD}, {YF}, {YT}, {YX}, & {ZK}.