My CEM60 was delivered 2 days ago and I’ve been banging my head against the wall trying to achieve a neutral balance to no avail. I’m going to Hm. Depot now to get the supplies & try this. Thank you!
I just received my CEM70G and have been playing literal HELL getting balance. Someone on the iOptron FB group pointed me to this video. I will be spreading it around.
Awesome video! Thanks for sharing, awesome set up! Lately I have been fighting with my cable management as depending on where the cables are they make my set up loose balance
Thank you for the great video! When you and others say balance a bit East heavy, does that mean with the counter-weights pointing East in the horizontal position or the scope on the East side in the horizontal position? By the way -- I'm taking a trip to Home Depot or similar store to buy fender washers and threaded rod tomorrow.
During the course of an astrophoto session on a target, the mount rotates about the RA axis such that the east side rises and the west side sinks. Before a meridian flip the counterweights rise on the east side - make their side a little heavy. After a meridian flip, the counterweights switch over to the west and sink - make the scope side a little heavy. The heavy side is always the east/rising side but only a little bit heavier. This is not precise because the torque changes as the shaft rotates - zero when the shaft is vertical, maximum when horizontal. We're not trying to influence balance so much as to keep the motor's gears from "floating". In practice, this is difficult to manage on both sides of a meridian flip. Here's what I do: Unbalance RA to make the scope side a little heavy. By trial-and-error, add a few small weights to the counterweight side to rebalance. I wire fishing weights to a clip. Double the added weight on the clip. (Now the counterweight side is a little heavier than the scope side.) Start the astrophoto session. When the meridian flip happens, remove the weighted clip. I hope this helps both theoretically and practically.
Thanks for sharing. Another detail took my attention : at ~2:33, one can see what looks like 2 bright adjustement screws under the tube dovetail plate. Are these used to make the tube axis perfectly perpendicular to the declination axis and correct cone error ?
Nice video. Using an Esprit 100 with CEM60 EC. Did you add a RA setting circle or is it degrees? Curious what you use it for. Likewise I blalance my DEC first before RA and only after everything, cameras, lens caps off, wires attached.
I made the setting circle although I don't use it for setting anything. Early on, I made it to help me understand how RA works. Thanks for commenting. I'm glad someone balances the same way as me.
I have the same problem, I note that it is due to unperfect alignemen between counterwight axis and declination one, the way to fix it is unscrewing the two screws that holds together the two asis. But be carefull doing that, I made a video for that
My counterweight shaft is not straight up and down when at the zero position, is this what you mean? Also, when you unscrew those two screws what could happen? or why do you say be careful? Thanks
When everything is in balance and all clutches released,, the scope should stay where I put it. Instead, my telescope wants to settle back to horizontal because there is some unseen force pushing it there - like a weight on the port side of the telescope. I counter that by putting weight on the starboard side using the outrigger contraption you see in the video. Now, if I push the telescope to any arbitrary angle, it'll stay put. The same applies to the RA. The counterweight bar seeks the horizontal because there is a center of gravity below the RA axis. I add weight above the axis to balance that. That's what I show in the video. Having said that (and worked hard to get perfect balance), everybody (including me) adds a little weight to deliberately throw off the balance towards the east side. Before a meridian flip, that's the side with the weights (the 20lb ones). Some even add a little weight to the camera end of the telescope. The former puts a little pressure on the RA gears, the latter does the same on the DEC gears. Without it, the gears would tend to push-then-coast resulting in irregular tracking. We're only talking a few ounces of imbalance. In the video, I didn't address the "east heavy" technique but, instead, focused on the overall balance. The "east-heavy" imbalance comes afterwards.
Tried that. Too much aluminum, not enough steel to find a place to attach them. I tried flexible magnetic strips. They weren't heavy enough by themselves and weren't strong enough to hold steel weights. Clamps seemed strongest.
Mais c'est quoi ce bordel ? Si on achète une monture, ce n'est pas pour bricoler des systèmes d'équilibrage ?! Ou alors y'a un problème de conception de la monture et au quel cas il faut renvoyer la CEM60 non ? PS : vous avez un super setup 👍 Amicalement.
Good video but a strange one because everything from the video quality, narration, lighting, appearance of gentleman in video, everything looks exactly like it was made in the 70's yet there's a centre balance mount there which didn't exist in the 70's as far as i know lol.
His rig is beautiful and so well planned and executed. But I got the same vibe, like I was watching Alone in the Wilderness or something. Was he offended by your (and now my) comment? He's the kind of guy that would allow me to sleep well if my equipment were in his hands, very meticulous. I like that. And great video sir.
@@joep1551 No offence taken from either of you. As dated as my video appeared, the stars look no older now than they did in the 70s. I, on the other hand, have not aged as gracefully. I stated it poorly above.
@@sisyphus9146 I think the comments referred to the appearance of the video, not yours Sisyphus, the look and feel of the video quality , lighting and narration, which very much resembles the kind of 70's and early 80's documentaries. But not in a bad way. I felt the same :) Thanks for the video, I'm always trying to improve the balance, which in a a newtonian is even more complicated, this looks very promising.
I'm not a fan of a perfect balance for the hour axis : 1) a perfect balance means that it is in an unstable balance like a ball at the summit of a mountain. The slightest wind blow will push your ball down the hill... 2) to minimise backlash during long exposures, prefer a wee bit of more weight on counterweight side and use the couterweights in the west part of the mount (if possible given the celestial object tracked) : counterweights will always slightly "pull" the mount without returning backwards 3) if the telescope is left alone, and if, for any reason, the hour axis break is loose, a wind blow could cause the telescope to "crash" on your tripod. If there's more weight on the counterweights part, this can not occur...
1. Perfect balance is intended only as a temporary condition. The fender washer contraption gets me this far. Then I add a few ounces of bias weight to the counterweight side. The video didn't show the latter part because the point of the video was to show that the telescope being at rest in the horizontal doesn't mean it's balanced. 2,3. I follow the crowd that promotes east-heavy slightly off-balance. They seem to be in the majority and I got into that school during my formative years. Lucky for me, the counterweight side is to the east until the meridian flip - at which point I generally go to bed.
balance isn't about being anal its just getting balanced ish, not that important really okay you dont want in a foot out but guess what the motor drags it round that's what the balance is for so you dont add to backlash
Good point... well taken. However, the video shows what's achievable. If the offside weight is sufficient, it can overwhelm the imbalance used to counteract backlash (especially Dec) as the assembly rotates through RA. Mine was horrendous so I made the counterweights. After balancing I give a little bias to the east side and to the camera end of the scope to fight backlash. For me, the amount of bias seems easier to determine if I start with a nearly balanced scope. Thanks for your comment.
Excellent video and just what I was looking for 👍 thanks for the help 👍👍
this man has some serious dedication and knowledge. this guy is the real deal.
Excellent posters in the background! TMP is a favorite of mine!
My CEM60 was delivered 2 days ago and I’ve been banging my head against the wall trying to achieve a neutral balance to no avail. I’m going to Hm. Depot now to get the supplies & try this. Thank you!
Thank you - simple and effective. These should be built into every mount!
Wow, that's dedication!
I just received my CEM70G and have been playing literal HELL getting balance. Someone on the iOptron FB group pointed me to this video. I will be spreading it around.
Thanks. I hope the video helps. Some of the others' comments here are helpful too. Good luck with your new mount.
Thanks. I hope the video helps. Some of the others' comments here are helpful too. Good luck with your new mount.
Thanks! this was very helpful.
My telescope is the same. Thanks for your informative solution.
Awesome video! Thanks for sharing, awesome set up! Lately I have been fighting with my cable management as depending on where the cables are they make my set up loose balance
Great video! Thank you!
This is interesting
Thank you for the great video! When you and others say balance a bit East heavy, does that mean with the counter-weights pointing East in the horizontal position or the scope on the East side in the horizontal position? By the way -- I'm taking a trip to Home Depot or similar store to buy fender washers and threaded rod tomorrow.
During the course of an astrophoto session on a target, the mount rotates about the RA axis such that the east side rises and the west side sinks. Before a meridian flip the counterweights rise on the east side - make their side a little heavy. After a meridian flip, the counterweights switch over to the west and sink - make the scope side a little heavy. The heavy side is always the east/rising side but only a little bit heavier. This is not precise because the torque changes as the shaft rotates - zero when the shaft is vertical, maximum when horizontal. We're not trying to influence balance so much as to keep the motor's gears from "floating".
In practice, this is difficult to manage on both sides of a meridian flip. Here's what I do:
Unbalance RA to make the scope side a little heavy.
By trial-and-error, add a few small weights to the counterweight side to rebalance. I wire fishing weights to a clip.
Double the added weight on the clip. (Now the counterweight side is a little heavier than the scope side.)
Start the astrophoto session.
When the meridian flip happens, remove the weighted clip.
I hope this helps both theoretically and practically.
Thank you !
Thank you for your explanation and video.
Thanks for sharing.
Another detail took my attention : at ~2:33, one can see what looks like 2 bright adjustement screws under the tube dovetail plate. Are these used to make the tube axis perfectly perpendicular to the declination axis and correct cone error ?
They keep the plate from sliding out of the mount in case the clamp loosens. There's another pair at the other end of the plate. Safety first!
Nice video. Using an Esprit 100 with CEM60 EC. Did you add a RA setting circle or is it degrees? Curious what you use it for. Likewise I blalance my DEC first before RA and only after everything, cameras, lens caps off, wires attached.
I made the setting circle although I don't use it for setting anything. Early on, I made it to help me understand how RA works. Thanks for commenting. I'm glad someone balances the same way as me.
I have the same problem, I note that it is due to unperfect alignemen between counterwight axis and declination one, the way to fix it is unscrewing the two screws that holds together the two asis. But be carefull doing that, I made a video for that
My counterweight shaft is not straight up and down when at the zero position, is this what you mean? Also, when you unscrew those two screws what could happen? or why do you say be careful? Thanks
Hello, did you put an extra counterweight on the R.A axis to set your mount east heavy in every case ? I didn't understand what it is for ?
When everything is in balance and all clutches released,, the scope should stay where I put it. Instead, my telescope wants to settle back to horizontal because there is some unseen force pushing it there - like a weight on the port side of the telescope. I counter that by putting weight on the starboard side using the outrigger contraption you see in the video. Now, if I push the telescope to any arbitrary angle, it'll stay put. The same applies to the RA. The counterweight bar seeks the horizontal because there is a center of gravity below the RA axis. I add weight above the axis to balance that. That's what I show in the video.
Having said that (and worked hard to get perfect balance), everybody (including me) adds a little weight to deliberately throw off the balance towards the east side. Before a meridian flip, that's the side with the weights (the 20lb ones). Some even add a little weight to the camera end of the telescope. The former puts a little pressure on the RA gears, the latter does the same on the DEC gears. Without it, the gears would tend to push-then-coast resulting in irregular tracking. We're only talking a few ounces of imbalance.
In the video, I didn't address the "east heavy" technique but, instead, focused on the overall balance. The "east-heavy" imbalance comes afterwards.
@@sisyphus9146 thank you for your precise answer, it helps me a lot :)
Have a nice day, and merry christmas !
Another way is low powered magnets :-)
Tried that. Too much aluminum, not enough steel to find a place to attach them. I tried flexible magnetic strips. They weren't heavy enough by themselves and weren't strong enough to hold steel weights. Clamps seemed strongest.
superb setup...what a beauty !...dare I say sexy
Me?
Mais c'est quoi ce bordel ?
Si on achète une monture, ce n'est pas pour bricoler des systèmes d'équilibrage ?!
Ou alors y'a un problème de conception de la monture et au quel cas il faut renvoyer la CEM60 non ?
PS : vous avez un super setup 👍
Amicalement.
Ce n'est pas important. Il est maintenant équilibré.
Good video but a strange one because everything from the video quality, narration, lighting, appearance of gentleman in video, everything looks exactly like it was made in the 70's yet there's a centre balance mount there which didn't exist in the 70's as far as i know lol.
Eddie CJ So true!!!!
Consider that the stars look exactly like they were made billions of years ago. I am unfazed by your comment. :-)
His rig is beautiful and so well planned and executed. But I got the same vibe, like I was watching Alone in the Wilderness or something. Was he offended by your (and now my) comment? He's the kind of guy that would allow me to sleep well if my equipment were in his hands, very meticulous. I like that. And great video sir.
@@joep1551 No offence taken from either of you. As dated as my video appeared, the stars look no older now than they did in the 70s. I, on the other hand, have not aged as gracefully. I stated it poorly above.
@@sisyphus9146 I think the comments referred to the appearance of the video, not yours Sisyphus, the look and feel of the video quality , lighting and narration, which very much resembles the kind of 70's and early 80's documentaries. But not in a bad way. I felt the same :)
Thanks for the video, I'm always trying to improve the balance, which in a a newtonian is even more complicated, this looks very promising.
I'm not a fan of a perfect balance for the hour axis :
1) a perfect balance means that it is in an unstable balance like a ball at the summit of a mountain. The slightest wind blow will push your ball down the hill...
2) to minimise backlash during long exposures, prefer a wee bit of more weight on counterweight side and use the couterweights in the west part of the mount (if possible given the celestial object tracked) : counterweights will always slightly "pull" the mount without returning backwards
3) if the telescope is left alone, and if, for any reason, the hour axis break is loose, a wind blow could cause the telescope to "crash" on your tripod. If there's more weight on the counterweights part, this can not occur...
1. Perfect balance is intended only as a temporary condition. The fender washer contraption gets me this far. Then I add a few ounces of bias weight to the counterweight side. The video didn't show the latter part because the point of the video was to show that the telescope being at rest in the horizontal doesn't mean it's balanced.
2,3. I follow the crowd that promotes east-heavy slightly off-balance. They seem to be in the majority and I got into that school during my formative years. Lucky for me, the counterweight side is to the east until the meridian flip - at which point I generally go to bed.
That's the nicest way to spend 15.000$ :O
Yeah but that also includes the posters.
balance isn't about being anal its just getting balanced ish, not that important really okay you dont want in a foot out but guess what the motor drags it round that's what the balance is for so you dont add to backlash
Good point... well taken. However, the video shows what's achievable.
If the offside weight is sufficient, it can overwhelm the imbalance used to counteract backlash (especially Dec) as the assembly rotates through RA.
Mine was horrendous so I made the counterweights.
After balancing I give a little bias to the east side and to the camera end of the scope to fight backlash. For me, the amount of bias seems easier to determine if I start with a nearly balanced scope.
Thanks for your comment.