I had the chance to study in Paris during more than 6 years with Eliane Richepin who was a pianist of great quality (more than 2000 concerts about 800 with orchestra) . She was born in 1910 and knew Ravel and studied with Marguerite Long , Yves Nat and Cortot. she also won the competition of composition prix de rom (falkenberg were also her teacher). she had a lot to show specially concerning Schumann Chopin Ravel Debussy. She represented the french school at that time 1970 to 1990.
There is an interesting anecdote in which it became clear that Liszt could play like Chopin, but that Chopin *never* could play like Liszt. IMO we should distinguish between Chopin the pianist and Chopin the composer. Chopin as a pianist was indeed known for his delicacy of touch, poetry, vocal approach with cantabile and legato as a basis. However it is obvious that in compositions like the Polonaise opus 53, the Prélude no. 24, the final of the Sonata no. 3 etc he wanted a big sound.
Czerny was about the most renowned piano teacher in Europe. His own pedigree was grand: His father taught him initially, and then he took more ad-hoc lessons with Salieri, Beethoven, Hummel and Clementi (to name a few names). Czerny had many, many very distinguished and important pupils.
I do have her recordings of all preludes of chopin and the 4 ballades. Also some mazurkas. There exist also a recording of the second and third sonata of chopin. She never wanted to sign with a recording company but she did play a lot with the philadelphia orchestra where she was honorary member as Argerich and Rubinstein. She was memeber of jury of warsaw chopin competition also and created the annecy festival and masterclasses. A very dynamic person even at high age.
Great to hear him. Big technique, big tone. Aims for big effects. Physically strong. . Was a Leschitizsky student. Scales, double notes , trills, chromatic scales very good. Brings out bass line in spots where no one else does Would sound great in a big hall.
liszt like Chopin also had a big sound and a perfect legato technique. Both new each other and friends. They are the two pianist and composers who formed the following generations and changed the whole way of pianoteaching and interpretation. we have here the second generation of their pupils. Horowitz was still very close to this tradition.
Czerny taught Liszt until 1827 (I think - or maybe 1828). Leschetitzky was born in 1830. He did meet and hear Liszt play as a boy - Liszt was concerting all over Europe in the 1840s and who could avoid listening?
I think you are right about the date 1837 for the autograph. I don t have it at hand as I gave it as a present to a friend. But either it was that year or earlier. surely not later. Mozart lived some month in Paris and composed there the sonata no 10, 11, 12 and 13 . He lost his mother at that time. Liszt I don t know how long he did live in Paris but I saw the house where he lived in the center of paris. (2nd arrondissement). Horowitz met Poulenc in Paris. as Poulenc dedicated a work to him.
I see a line of tradition which is given from one generation to the next one: Beethoven-Czerny-Liszt-......from Czerny on the good pianists got more and more in number Its like Richepin who influenced the actual french generation (everybody came over to prepare competition program...) Roger Muraro and Pascal Gallet were her last important students.
as you did read a lot about this can you tell me with whom Chopin did study in Vienna? His early works are really quite Viennese in style . He got more deep in harmony later only. Concerning his technique would be interesting who teached him the piano....
I cannot remember exactly as it is 20 years ago I looked at Chopins origins... but I know he had a viennese teacher in composition. either in poland (krakow) or in Vienna I cannot remember exactly. He was much younger than 20 when he studied with that teacher. and I speak about that early period of chopin works
That's odd. Czerny himself did study in Paris as a young teenager, but moved back to his home in Vienna shortly after 1800, where he became a full-time teacher teaching in his own Vienna family home there. Check the New Grove article for details. If you have a document signed in Paris, I'd guess it was a sourvenir from his one and only later trip there in 1837 - is that the year? Indeed, Czerny was most displeased when his young Vienna-pupil Liszt was whisked off to a concert career in Paris!
Also, Hambourg was a pupil of Leschetizky, who was himself taught by Czerny and Sechter. He had no training in the "French school" or in the Liszt school. Hambourg has no teacher-pupil-links to Liszt or Chopin.
I bought an autograph of Cerny with a dedication to one of his pupils in Paris !!!!!!!!!!!!! So he did teach in Paris. It may not be written in his biography as the biography may be not complete..... Its a signed autograph ( a little composition) date and paris and signature.
I don't believe Chopin was studying in Vienna. He did begin his concert career there there, before moving to Paris (1830? when he was already a fully-formed musician at the age of 20). His musical education was all from teachers in Poland prior to that.
So liszt studied with Czerny and Leschetitzky too. Here is the link !!!! So it is likely to imagine that Liszt and Leschetitzky did know each other and did also watch how the other plays.... As you did with colleges at your teacher.... They had a common way of interpretation given by Czerny... Thats already some important relation to speak about a common school... It was a little world as today..... Hope you understand better what I wanted to say
I personally hear almost zero concordance between Hambourg playing here and the approaches of Liszt's own pupils in this repertoire (I have uploaded plenty by Sauer, de Greef, d'Albert, Lamond and Rosenthal to compare). By the way, there are a few piano rolls of Leschetitzky playing: a fine and graceful player.
what I want to say is that Paris is still a famous place where pianists can learn a lot. Chopin Cerny and Liszt did live (at least some time) in Paris. Its a fact. That they gave concerts there is another fact that the young pianists did hear them another fact. So there was influence.... Thanks for the correction about this pianist here, I only think he was a clever man who did a good job of understanding Liszt and I think his interpretation style is close to liszt.
I won't believe you. I will believe those who heard him in preference! Have you read Chopin's own words on his opinions abuot the differences between Pleyel and Erard? Chopin was part of the "French" school - the line leads to people like Plante, Diemer and Pugno (and tangentailly into Pachmann and Rosenthal) - the "school" had its roots in the technique of Clementi. In so far as Beethoven had a "big style", yes.... but that does not compare to the reports of Liszt's early playing.
thats an interesting information that czerny was teacher of liszt. czerny must have been an interesting guy. he seems to have been what later was Marguerite Long and Cortot in Paris. one thing is sure only few real good teachers existed in the past and same for the present. and they did create the pianists who got famous.
Czerny was one of Liszt's teachers, not pupils. And he died in 1857. There is no line from Liszt to Leschetitzky. I am not sure what you are trying to claim, but if it is that Leschetitzky somehow learned from Liszt then that is flat wrong (well, more than maybe just hearing him a concert - in which case he learned from EVERYBODY!)
Chopin did not have a "big sound" at all - contemporary descriptions state the exact opposite. His preference for the Pleyel pianos (he rejected the "big sound" of the Erard, finding it too hard to control) was becuase of its lightness of touch and silvery tone. The idea of "big sound" seems the wrong description. HIs pupil Mikuli wrote that it was the sonorousness of his cantabile that was striking - hardly akin to this Hambourg whatsoever!
Chopin had a very precise and delcate touch of the piano. But believe me he had a big sound when playing his scherzi and ballades and the 6th polonaise and so on.... No don t listen to those saying that he was playing like a romantic joung lady, that were the bad pianists who could not play like him.... Chopin is responsible for the big inventions of pleyel as liszt also. And they have a big sound already
The new Groves is written by modern musicologists who can't find middle C on the piano. Czerny studied with his own father and with BEETHOVEN. He had lessons with Beethoven for years. Beethoven chose Czerny to play the first performance of his Emperor Concerto, Hammaklavier Sonata opus 106, and several of his piano trios. Beethoven sent his nephew Karl to Czerny for piano lessons. Czerny also learned from hearing Hummel play and from some contact with Clementi. The NewGroves is pathetic.
I had the chance to study in Paris during more than 6 years with Eliane Richepin who was a pianist of great quality (more than 2000 concerts about 800 with orchestra) . She was born in 1910 and knew Ravel and studied with Marguerite Long , Yves Nat and Cortot. she also won the competition of composition prix de rom (falkenberg were also her teacher). she had a lot to show specially concerning Schumann Chopin Ravel Debussy. She represented the french school at that time 1970 to 1990.
There is an interesting anecdote in which it became clear that Liszt could play like Chopin, but that Chopin *never* could play like Liszt.
IMO we should distinguish between Chopin the pianist and Chopin the composer. Chopin as a pianist was indeed known for his delicacy of touch, poetry, vocal approach with cantabile and legato as a basis.
However it is obvious that in compositions like the Polonaise opus 53, the Prélude no. 24, the final of the Sonata no. 3 etc he wanted a big sound.
Czerny was about the most renowned piano teacher in Europe. His own pedigree was grand: His father taught him initially, and then he took more ad-hoc lessons with Salieri, Beethoven, Hummel and Clementi (to name a few names). Czerny had many, many very distinguished and important pupils.
I do have her recordings of all preludes of chopin and the 4 ballades. Also some mazurkas. There exist also a recording of the second and third sonata of chopin. She never wanted to sign with a recording company but she did play a lot with the philadelphia orchestra where she was honorary member as Argerich and Rubinstein. She was memeber of jury of warsaw chopin competition also and created the annecy festival and masterclasses. A very dynamic person even at high age.
Great to hear him.
Big technique, big tone.
Aims for big effects. Physically strong. .
Was a Leschitizsky student.
Scales, double notes , trills, chromatic scales very good.
Brings out bass line in spots where no one else does
Would sound great in a big hall.
liszt like Chopin also had a big sound and a perfect legato technique. Both new each other and friends. They are the two pianist and composers who formed the following generations and changed the whole way of pianoteaching and interpretation. we have here the second generation of their pupils. Horowitz was still very close to this tradition.
Czerny taught Liszt until 1827 (I think - or maybe 1828). Leschetitzky was born in 1830. He did meet and hear Liszt play as a boy - Liszt was concerting all over Europe in the 1840s and who could avoid listening?
I think you are right about the date 1837 for the autograph. I don t have it at hand as I gave it as a present to a friend.
But either it was that year or earlier. surely not later.
Mozart lived some month in Paris and composed there the sonata no 10, 11, 12 and 13 . He lost his mother at that time. Liszt I don t know how long he did live in Paris but I saw the house where he lived in the center of paris. (2nd arrondissement). Horowitz met Poulenc in Paris. as Poulenc dedicated a work to him.
I see a line of tradition which is given from one generation to the next one: Beethoven-Czerny-Liszt-......from Czerny on the good pianists got more and more in number
Its like Richepin who influenced the actual french generation (everybody came over to prepare competition program...)
Roger Muraro and Pascal Gallet were her last important students.
as you did read a lot about this can you tell me with whom Chopin did study in Vienna? His early works are really quite Viennese in style . He got more deep in harmony later only.
Concerning his technique would be interesting who teached him the piano....
I cannot remember exactly as it is 20 years ago I looked at Chopins origins... but I know he had a viennese teacher in composition. either in poland (krakow) or in Vienna I cannot remember exactly. He was much younger than 20 when he studied with that teacher. and I speak about that early period of chopin works
That's odd. Czerny himself did study in Paris as a young teenager, but moved back to his home in Vienna shortly after 1800, where he became a full-time teacher teaching in his own Vienna family home there. Check the New Grove article for details. If you have a document signed in Paris, I'd guess it was a sourvenir from his one and only later trip there in 1837 - is that the year? Indeed, Czerny was most displeased when his young Vienna-pupil Liszt was whisked off to a concert career in Paris!
Also, Hambourg was a pupil of Leschetizky, who was himself taught by Czerny and Sechter. He had no training in the "French school" or in the Liszt school. Hambourg has no teacher-pupil-links to Liszt or Chopin.
That's interesting, I didn't know her name.
I would like to hear some recordings by Richepin - she had great teachers!
I bought an autograph of Cerny with a dedication to one of his pupils in Paris !!!!!!!!!!!!! So he did teach in Paris. It may not be written in his biography as the biography may be not complete..... Its a signed autograph ( a little composition) date and paris and signature.
And secondly Czerny taight in Vienna. He only left the city three times in his life.
I don't believe Chopin was studying in Vienna. He did begin his concert career there there, before moving to Paris (1830? when he was already a fully-formed musician at the age of 20). His musical education was all from teachers in Poland prior to that.
So liszt studied with Czerny and Leschetitzky too. Here is the link !!!! So it is likely to imagine that Liszt and Leschetitzky did know each other and did also watch how the other plays.... As you did with colleges at your teacher....
They had a common way of interpretation given by Czerny...
Thats already some important relation to speak about a common school... It was a little world as today.....
Hope you understand better what I wanted to say
I personally hear almost zero concordance between Hambourg playing here and the approaches of Liszt's own pupils in this repertoire (I have uploaded plenty by Sauer, de Greef, d'Albert, Lamond and Rosenthal to compare). By the way, there are a few piano rolls of Leschetitzky playing: a fine and graceful player.
what I want to say is that Paris is still a famous place where pianists can learn a lot. Chopin Cerny and Liszt did live (at least some time) in Paris. Its a fact. That they gave concerts there is another fact that the young pianists did hear them another fact. So there was influence.... Thanks for the correction about this pianist here, I only think he was a clever man who did a good job of understanding Liszt and I think his interpretation style is close to liszt.
I won't believe you. I will believe those who heard him in preference! Have you read Chopin's own words on his opinions abuot the differences between Pleyel and Erard? Chopin was part of the "French" school - the line leads to people like Plante, Diemer and Pugno (and tangentailly into Pachmann and Rosenthal) - the "school" had its roots in the technique of Clementi. In so far as Beethoven had a "big style", yes.... but that does not compare to the reports of Liszt's early playing.
thats an interesting information that czerny was teacher of liszt. czerny must have been an interesting guy. he seems to have been what later was Marguerite Long and Cortot in Paris. one thing is sure only few real good teachers existed in the past and same for the present. and they did create the pianists who got famous.
Czerny was one of Liszt's teachers, not pupils. And he died in 1857. There is no line from Liszt to Leschetitzky. I am not sure what you are trying to claim, but if it is that Leschetitzky somehow learned from Liszt then that is flat wrong (well, more than maybe just hearing him a concert - in which case he learned from EVERYBODY!)
@uhartchristian should the difference between PLAYING the piano and musical compostion.
Chopin did not have a "big sound" at all - contemporary descriptions state the exact opposite. His preference for the Pleyel pianos (he rejected the "big sound" of the Erard, finding it too hard to control) was becuase of its lightness of touch and silvery tone. The idea of "big sound" seems the wrong description. HIs pupil Mikuli wrote that it was the sonorousness of his cantabile that was striking - hardly akin to this Hambourg whatsoever!
from where also leschetitzky got that perfect teaching of liszt works? a propos czerny teached in Paris !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Chopin had a very precise and delcate touch of the piano.
But believe me he had a big sound when playing his scherzi and ballades and the 6th polonaise and so on....
No don t listen to those saying that he was playing like a romantic joung lady, that were the bad pianists who could not play like him.... Chopin is responsible for the big inventions of pleyel as liszt also. And they have a big sound already
The new Groves is written by modern musicologists who can't find middle C on the piano.
Czerny studied with his own father and with BEETHOVEN. He had lessons with Beethoven for years.
Beethoven chose Czerny to play the first performance of his Emperor Concerto, Hammaklavier Sonata opus 106, and several of his piano trios. Beethoven sent his nephew Karl to Czerny for piano lessons.
Czerny also learned from hearing Hummel play and from some contact with Clementi.
The NewGroves is pathetic.