Choosing the Correct Bet Size on the Flop
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- Опубликовано: 8 авг 2020
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In this PokerCoaching Premium Class, I discuss two primary questions of poker which are: When should you bet... and how much?
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This lesson was pure gold. Thanks Jonathan 😊🥰
Awesome, I'm glad you enjoyed it!
I think one of the best lessons so far. Basically all this was already covered in other lessons and seminars, but flow charts make it... errm, flow much better :)
Thanks for the priceless education and ALL you do to get the Poker word out there, and heres a shout out to your Wife and kids too BTW, Hi you guys, esp James. you are an integral part of the shows young fella.
This has been the best and most impactful poker video I’ve ever seen. Most importantly I’ve been able to minimize crucial mistakes. I’m applying this to every hand and seeing instant results. Thank you Jonathan! :D
Love the video Johnathan. Very useful. Thank you 👍
The flow charts are fantastic.
Great stuff. Thank you very much!
Great, easily digestible stuff!
Awesome lesson 😊👍🏼
Great stuff! Some people love flowcharts.
This was a great lesson! But keep in mind that although the "facing a flop bet" chart gives the gist of what you should do, it also ignores the need for randomization. You must randomize, it's not optional, or the regs are going to eat you alive. Also be sure to bring player profiling into your decision. Like e.g. if someone c-bets way, way too tight, your "middle strength hands" might be top pair with good kicker. Against someone else who always fires out their c-bet with 100% probability, your "middle strength hands" are any pair. Also, be sure to pick your spots. If I know someone barrels turn and river quite widely, I won't call their c-bet with a middle-strength hand even if they're c-betting too frequently. That's because I know I'll be facing aggression on the turn and river a high portion of the time, and I want at least top-pair, good-kicker if I'm going to hero call bets like that.
Thank you so much this really helped me.
A good lesson I'll have to watch over, you were coming over a little less than your lucid self because of your travels maybe. But who doesn't love a flow chart!
I struggle to understand the following (hoping it isn't right in front of my face): When IP, on a board like KJ2, I have the Range advantage, the Nut advantage, the board connects with vilain's range, therefore I should bet Large (50%)... As a value bet?
In the video, I understand that we bet Large in order to be paid by vilain with a less good hand, which implies we have something good and we want to keep vilain in the hand.
Jonathan said to Cbet those boards 80 to 100% of the time for the reasons above, which I understand. But what if I miss the board (let's say I have Jacks). I have to Cbet the flop anyway because of my range, but what would be the sizing?
Long story short: Are your sizing in that situation the same? I guess having 2 sizings is not recommended, but it seems that betting 50% everytime we encounter this spot seems "a lot".
Great content as always!
Great video--thanks!!!
Love a good flowchart. Can I get a clarification of that the percentages are on the left-hand chart? I think it's how often you should be betting in that instance, but I'm not totally clear.
It is roughly how often you should be betting based on your range advantage.
@@PokerCoaching Thanks JL.
It took me so long to get how important bet sizing is 🙈
Thank you!!!!
It's easier for us to just applaud your work, but no one knows more better than you that how much effort it takes to figure out this probably one of the most important concept of poker and that too providing us for free!!! You are God 🙏🙏
Let us atleast do the easier work of applauding you.
Can you do a video on bet sizes for tournaments? I see some of the pros cbetting roughly 20% pot and at other times 60% pot
Awesome work, dude! Loving this style of content
Thanks so much!
I did some math with an equity calculator, and I don't think I agree with your choices for flops where the PFR IP has a range advantage.
This is using your GTO preflop ranges for both the UTG raiser and BB flat.
If I just run UTG vs BB, UTG has the following equity for those flops
(strong)
55
56
61
61
59
62
(weak)
60
60
So two of your examples for flops where the IP PFR has a "strong range advantage" actually have the lowest equity of all.
What, then, is the "range advantage" concept supposed to mean? Just that we can have more top and middle pairs? We are supposed to completely ignore the equity of our draws for this type of analysis?
Like on 432 no flush draw, UTG actually has A5s for the nut wheel and a billion aces that help them draw to the wheel.
I feel like the primary reason UTG has a stronger range than BB on most of these flops is actually all of the overpairs.
And a low flop is better for having overpairs, first because there's more combinations of overpairs, but also because the board isn't blocking your overpair combinations by turning them into half-as-many sets.
I can also just say .. pure Gold. Jonathan - you should go more often to this old house 😂
So if I’m out of position, and have no range advantage post flop (heads up), however flop a premium hand (top pair, ace kicker)
Or a strong draw, do you generally recommend the player to lead out or check/call check/raise?
Bet with your premium and strong draws
But the OOP raiser would be expected to have a tighter, stronger range if he's opening from UTG or UTG+1, for example, whereas the IP raiser doesn't necessarily have much of anything if he's opening from CU. Here, you (seem to) say the opposite. What am I missing?
I am not that great with that stuff either but I try to answer and please someone correct me: If you open from UTG or UTG+1 u are OOP to everyone except the blinds. So u have the range advantage against the blinds. They call wider since they already invested sth in the pot. But if someone behind u calls a UTG raise they need to have a very tight range since u opening from UTG.. that goes back to -> u need a tighter range to raise or call a raise than the initial raiser. Slansky already discussed this very long ago. When CO opens he is loser of course, but he has a range advantage if the big blind calls .. then he is IP and big blind always calls very loose with money invested.. if the BU calls or raises vs CO the BU is IP and has a tighter range because he calls or 3B a raise in front of him. In this scenario the BU is IP and CO is OOP.
When UTG opens, they can be the IP raiser (when the BB calls) and the OOP raiser (when BTN calls). So PFR ranges stay the same in both cases, it just depends who calls.
Awesome video
Why does the raiser have a range advantage on 776?
I understand the monotone board is because you have more suited hands. And the 234 is because you have more Ax but 776 I can’t understand?
Love the character of your vacation home
If I open early oop and get called by button why is it that button has range advantage on high card boards. Shouldn't I be the one who opens a tight range from ep and his calling range is wider
Very nice video, I started poker 2months ago and this was very helpful! Though I still have some trouble with all the range advantages concept, any tips regarding this field ? Thanks
I appreciate you JL
So when facing a bet on the flop, we only consider our hand and not our range?
Good shit
Best in the Biz.
Thanks Jonathan from french polynesia
This is An amazing video
I don’t completely understand the chart. Why does the preflop raiser out of position not have a strong range advantage against an in position caller? I thought early position raises show more strength than in position calls. Could you clear this up for me?
It depends entirely on the board. Some boards favor the caller more than the raiser.
I think we're in 3 6 low limit seven deuce offsuit out flopping aces territory at the moment.
Having trouble with the range concept. How can you say, maybe based on some actions done, someone's range contains flush draws? Pre flop aggressor? Caller? Depends on position? Just confused on some commentators on games when they said that "player 1 has flushes in his range". If it depends on particular situations or actions, may I have some examples? Anyone? Thanks!!
The flatcaller has in general more flushes on monotone boards. And flushdraws on two tone boards. That is because a flatting range consists of relatively more suited hands. Think about it. Someone opens from the HJ. That range contains a decent amount of offsuited hands. Which are 12 each if they open it at 100% frequency. While a suited hand only has 4 combos. When you are sitting on the button for example. You flat hands like JTs because they play well postflop. While you would fold the offsuited combo.
@@Jeroeny That make sense. Another question? How others can also say that this "particular card" is in their range, and hits the board more often. For example in a T67 FLOP, the big blind position(or some other position) hits the board, and has more "TEN" in his range. Thanks man, appreciate the answer and helps me understand more.
@@69anxiety well lets say there is a tight player under the gun. That person only opens ATs from that position. The big blind defends reasonably tight but does defend all his Txo(and Txs). So basically all the possible Tx combos. Then top pair might be something like 10% of BB range. And only 2% of UTG's range. 10>2% so a T hits BB range harder.
One of the biggest problems I’m having is understanding how my expected range and how my opponent’s expected range connects with a given flop/“texture”. I hear people in lessons, not just Jonathan, But other poker coaches just glibly say “this flop totally smashes the big blinds calling range” or something like that and I’m like-uhh, how is that so? What elements of the flop make it connect with that range? I’m just not good at this and I’m seeing it as a key point in a lot of teaching..
It depends on their preflop range. Some ranges connect better with the flop than others.
Jonathan Little - Poker Coaching
Well, yes, I get that concept, but I have never seen a breakdown that goes like this: a preflop initial raiser’s range connects with these types of flop: xx, yy, zz, because of these features-boom. If they are in earlier position blah blah and if in the button yadada. A limper will connect with such and forth, and a BB defender with yadayada type features.
People often talk about a particular flop or even like you give 3 examples. But the point is you need to know the *features* that make a flop connect with a particular range if you are to apply the knowledge to any given flop...
@@kineahora8736 You can think of ranges here as "hands a player is likely to have". Much of this is about who is likely to have hands that connect with the board. For example on 776 with UTG vs BB the BB is more likely to have a 7 than the UTG player.
If you are unsure whether a board favours a player try to ask which player it favours based on what you know about their pteflop ranges (you know these because you have studied and therefore have these ranges spelt out to you in the dorm of percentages, range charts and experience). Using this comparative approach it becomes obvious what flops favour each position. If you askndre still stuck look at the opening/calling ranges provided by Jonathan. If you're still stuck I'd reverse engineer calling charts from each position and look for patterns.
Now when a board favours a range the features that determine whose range it favours are as follows:
Is it heavy or light (heavy meaning more high cards and light meaning lower cards) - RANK
Is it wet or dry (this is a little more complicated but basically it's hoe many made hands they have vs how many draws) - DRAWS
Who has a range advantage - MADE HANDS
Who has a nut advantage - THE NUTS
To "smash" a flop you basically need to have the nut advantage, have lots of cards that are about the same rank as the board in your range and have most (if not all of the draws)
See those words in caps? The become our questions when assessing who smashes the flop.
DO THEY HAVE MANY CARDS OF THIS RANK IN THEIR RANGE?
DO THEY HAVE MANY DRAWS ON THIS BOARD IN THEIR RANGE
DO THEY HAVE MANY HANDS THAT ARE STRONG MADE HANDS IN THEIR RANGE
DO THEY HAVE THE NUTS IN THEIR RANGE
Let's say it comes 332 rainbow. This is light and kind of dry (only straight draws). UTG should only have over pairs as strong hands but BB has many threes, pocket threes, pocket 2s and even junk like 45 off suit and 64 off suit.
You need to visualise the preflop ranges and categorise them in your mind. When they say it smashes the BB calling range they're literally saying "This flop has low cards and the BB has loads of low cards because a.) People play low crazy cards from the BB and b.) If they had premium high cards they may well have raised.
A lot of poker rhetoric makes things sound more complicated than they are (sometimes). This literally boils down to saying "Players usually have a lot of good hands for this board" but with hours of evidence to back the statement up
NananaeUK thanks.
But for instance. Jonathan’s chart says preflop raiser IP has a moderate range advantage on 853 of spades and 432r. How is this the case? Doesn’t the BB have both range advantage and nut advantage in other those boards? I don’t get it! I would hav rout these flops in the category of “No range advantage for preflop raiser”.
@@kineahora8736 Preflop raiser has all the over pairs and best A highs.
“I once waaaas lost, but nowww I’m found...”🎵🎶
These streamed sessions on youtube are the pokerplayer's Dora the explorer sometimes.
"I can hear you!! Jeeeeej"
"NOOOO, fold Jonathan, fold!"
"Hooray, Jonathan survived the episode."
Except that Jonathan stressed out that we should steal as much as possible...
Similar, but different!
do you have a class coming up in masterclass like ivey and nregreanu or is it a class in your site? Thanks!
In my site.
I don t get why when we have nut advantage we should use a larger size.I am confused
Because your opponent's entire range is in bad shape against your value betting range, allowing you to bluff with lots of hands.
Hey Jonathan! What do you think about those small bet sizes at low lives stakes NLHE? Such as 1/3 Ive implemented this recently but no one folds to small bets like that. if you were to adjust what would the adjustment be ? Thank you, Cody
??
Thanks Dylan much appreciated. It seemed like when I bet 1/4 they just call 100% of the time. Just out of curiosity How did you get 75%?
@@dylanhom58 But it's 1 - 0.25 = 75%
@@codyremillard8392 As pointed out by Dylan, I'm rephrasing it in simple words.
When someone bets, they have some concept called breakeven %.
Let's say IP player bets 33% pot on flop. So, in order to breakeven, IP's bet should atleast make opponent fold to some % of the time to be profitable. It is calculated as:
Risk/(risk + reward)
In this case, 1 / (1 + 3) = 1/4 = 25%
So, IP player's bet should generate fold atleast 25% of times in order to break even.
A concept of minimum defense frequency applies to caller.
It's calculated as: 100% - opponents breakeven %
In this case, it's 100 - 25 = 75%
OOP should call atleast 75% of the times to this bet size to avoid his opponent printing money.
what is range advantage? I am lost after few minute
See PokerCoaching.com/fundamentals
Can I use this in 6 max cash games???
Yep!
So if I play you and realize this is how you're playing, can't I just bet to make you fold? It seems like if you're using strict guidelines, even if they are a bit soft, it's pretty easy to attack your plan. "Normally they won't' have A's" - Okay, so I limp in with A-A, wait for you to go to your chart to raise, then trap you? Polk uses a RNG to choose when to raise. It seems like unpredictability is best.
You seem to not understand that doing something 60% of the time is predictable, no matter how you determine the 60%.
@@PokerCoaching Why not play a hand with 2-7 off like it's A-A? According to your chart, you'd never do that. The problem I have with charts is they ignore the human aspect and the players at the table. If you have someone who's a total NIT and folds when you breath on them, toss the chart and collect the blinds. It's good to have an idea of the statistics involved, but how can you make decisions on when to play....without knowing who you are playing?? Predictability is the worse thing against good players.
@@toddfarkman2177 the thing about these ranges is that you bet regardless of if you “have it” or not. You’re playing your range. Because of this, your opponents won’t actually know when you have it or not… just that it’s very possible for you to have a good hand. They can guess that you will bet on the flop if it fits your range, but they still can’t really call because of the fact that it’s so easy for you to have a good hand. Also, this is just a guideline, and there is no need to play this exactly to a tee in a lot of games since exploitative play is far more profitable
way is it better to bet the 853s type of hands as ipv over 50% or is that for higher stakes i would say low stakes bb hits and calls more often?? pls explain. prob cos u have more high flushdraws and more suited connectors? came to 2500bb forward clock around without that only flaw maybe? played for over 10 hours
853 does not connect with anyone too well, meaning the preflop aggressor's edge persists.
This whole video could of be said in 3 words lol
Play balance range lol
If we only check back marginal made hands and trash, can't our opponent exploit this by barreling turn and river aggressively whenever we check back flop?
There are always going to places in your game where you can be exploited. If its not here then it will be somewhere else. If you notice someone exploiting you, and you feel capable of countering it, then look to trap them a few times.
Otherwise, if this is an option, find a game with weaker players that are not paying enough attention to exploit you. I know that last bit may seem like a cop out but game selection is an important skill. Dont let you ego get in the way of your bankroll.
I guess the answer to that question will be based on the player. Most of the time the player that makes the right decisions are the ones that are stronger. It may be bases on their experience, specially if you are playing for a long time, and if you are playing live. You can base you decisions on the tells of your opponent, past hands that you saw them making same plays, etc..
No, just call down accordingly with the marginal made hands. Most people mess this up by folding all their marginal hands by the river. Don't do that!
No-one is folding anything against a 30% bet on the flop at the micros :D
Sweet!
If you are betting small it means you have the range advantage, and sometimes the nut advantage. So it means you are ahead on average, therefore you shouldnt mind them calling as much.
\o/