I'm not really a competition shooter but I enjoy going fast and being accurate with pistols and would really love to get into one of these practical pistol shooting sports. Humble Marksman, you should definitely do a "Intro into Practical Pistol Shooting" type of video series!
You know what else would prevent the gun from falling out? Allowing thigh straps. I can tighten my T. Rex Arms holster for better retention and the thigh strap will keep the holster from coming up (or flexing) when I’m drawing the gun.
I don’t know why everyone argues about 2011’s making it “open minor” a dot that moves and isn’t compensated is nowhere near an open gun!!!!!! As far as reducing major PF why not just do away with major?????? It was differentiated to make major able to compete because the added recoil but all they did was make minor not be able to compete. Major is irrelevant in open because the gun muzzle flips less than a minor limited gun because the guns are heavy and the compensators work so well.
Nope keep major. There is a difference in every division but open and it imposes the open tax of unpredictability trashing your gun and costing you a match. I like watching guys with race guns who sneer at us plebes cry when their baby goes kaplooey.
yes but the major loads drive the comp with all that gas which is why open doesn't move much. minor open isn't very effective, doesn't drive the comp. what makes open so magical is the whole package. I suppose the entire community of open shooters would have a mutiny if they were forced to shoot minor, for all the cost involved id rather just have a Carry Optics Shadow 2 and do away with the insane cost and BS associated with playing the Open game. that and the scoring advantage is a huge part off it.
@@W1ldt1m so do I, but the sponsored schmucks have crew served gun maintainance and unlimited range time to make sure the gun runs for the next 300 rds.
I am all for the AIWB change for Carry Optics division for USPSA. I shoot monthly CCW matches in my area from the Appendix holster position with a Glock/RMR. I generally place top three. I only shoot USPSA about 3-4 times per year at local club matches because I am forced to move to the open division. I have fun and general place in the upper third. I really think as you discussed AIWB is how most truly carry a gun with an optic. Until the change is made I will continue to shoot USPSA occasionally for fun. I used to be a member of USPSA. If this rule were changed I would be a member immediately and start shooting monthly. Great vid - keep up the good work!
I have no problems with your proposed rule changes. I will still happily run my GX holster but have no problem if someone would prefer a race holster. But I have two rule changes I’d like to see- 1. Let us add a beavertail. It’s silly that guns like the MR920 are legal but modifying my Glock to have an identical grip suddenly makes the USPSA rule book divide by zero lol. 2. Probably more controversial but I’d like to see lights allowed as long as the light is functional and the gun still flies under the weight limit. It fits with your AIWB theory- I don’t even own any non-light-bearing concealed carry holsters. So ironically enough, when I compete with my Glock it has more recoil than when I carry it.
Awesome topic. I think magwells in co should be allowed but not the giant funnels. I'd like to hear thoughts on belt restrictions as well as far as magnetic mag puches. Thank you sir.
Buy a GX products holster and your gun won't fall out when your RO'g or resetting stages. Unlock the lever to get your gun out when you make ready and your good to go.
Hell yeah on the Alien and if you’re going that route the 2011 would make sense but also open the door for a serious gear race for CO guns. I’d certainly be buying a optic ready 2011 if they were allowed. Also, hard yes on 160 PF for major
I am 100% for mag wells and race type holsters. If you can have a mag that hangs down 2" below your grip then you should be able to have a mag well. Even IDPA allows mag wells.
Allow magwells, Remove the requirement for a red dot sight, allow AIWB and weapon lights as frame weights to the polymer bois could catch up to the shadow 2 bois.
I 1000% agree on allowing weapon lights. As long as the gun still fits within the weight limit with a functional light, it should be legal. Hell, I don’t own any non-lightbearring holsters for my Glock which is also my carry gun. So it’s odd that my gun is less awesome in competition form than it is in Carry form.
A big part of gun racing is about going fast. Maybe not in every Division but at least in some Divisions innovation should be unstifled. Carry Optics seems like a good place to open it up. We should want manufacturers to design and build better products. Glad that USPSA didn't start in the 1870's or we would have a contingent still arguing today about how to keep the Single Action Army competitive in Production.
I'd be kind of fine with getting rid of major and minor and just having one required power factor. Or maybe separate major into a new heavy metal division. Just a thought...
Pretty good. I think you should look at the legs (what make it different from other divisions, what are the core principles) of each division before you go wanting to change the division
The crazy growth of CO would suggest there is nothing wrong, production and limited is dying, might need to help those iron sights window lickers lol, actually fuck that just delete prod
1911s or 2011s already dominate open, standard/limited, and classic/single stack in IPSC and USPSA. I don't see the need to add them to production optics/carry optics. IPSC has also added Production Light and Production Optics Light divisions so polymer guns like the Canik Rival and CZ P 10 F aren't going up against heavier guns like the Shadow 2.
Because plastic guns get chewed up - increasingly guns are coming with detachable magwells. Only dots like how the alien mounts dots - not frame mount.
@@TheHumbleMarksman Hmm. Then there'd be nothing keeping people from having giant brass magwells like open. If you lowered the weight limit in tandem, maybe. But even then the aluminum versions weigh almost nothing. The Alien is basically a 5k race gun made for minor, so I don't see the point of changing dot mounting until more guns do that mounting style
Mag wells - yes. Race holsters - possibly. Appendix - why? The hip bone rule is gone. Weight - do we really want tungsten flashlights? 2011 - why start an equipment $$$ war?
1. Separate production and CO handgun rosters. Allow single action guns and guns like the alien arms gun with a frame-mounted red dot. 2. Allow magwells (OEM or aftermarket). 3. Increase weight max to over 60 oz. 4. Allow appendix carry. 5. Allow race holsters. As of yesterday, appendix carry got accepted (as well as flashlights) so we are at 1 out of the 5 suggestion accepted so far. I'm betting that magwells will be the next change.
Carry optics is what frank Garcia started me on 2 years ago. I still love it. He's moving from open to that this year. Don't need magwells in carry ops. Any I know Mike okey pretty well. If you don't like him, run for his job. Your spot on about the 60ish oz limit. Weak hand should be ruled out cuz I suck at it! Nice vid.
@@smc4229 hmmmmm he made the world shoot this year (again).......He doesn't even shoot full time anymore, he's busy setting up businesses and making money.
I don’t know if it’s the case in carry optics too, but I would delete the 15 rounds maximum capacity in production. If my gun is ready out of the box to use a 19 round mag, why can’t I use it? Just ban base pads so people don’t start using 30 round sticks. I also think that race holsters are allowed in IPSC production, so that’s one more reason to allow them in USPSA both prod and CO
You're a USPSA guy so maybe you haven't heard, but Max Leograndis is running a 2-gun match which I think he hopes to turn into a full-on league. The divisions are much more streamlined, including things like allowing slide-ride 2011's in the "duty" division like you mentioned. The match he is running is called 2021 Cobalt Kinetics Practical 2-Gun Championship. I personally don't know why the divisions have to have such a narrow scope in USPSA. Capacity is a very obvious rule to construct divisions around. Compensated pistols are another. Caliber/power factor is also another... but honestly just push everyone into 9mm except the hardcore gamers in open. And lastly you probably need some sort of "reasonable" weight/size restrictions so that you don't have abominations like open pistols parading around in other divisions. But everything else is getting lost in the weeds. Irons vs red dot? External mods like stippling? Trigger pull weight? Single action vs striker? Magwells? In each of those categories one is obviously superior, but it's to a small enough degree that I have to ask - who cares? Weren't there several shooters with plastic guns that dominated in limited recently?
So, essentially a kind of minor IPSC Modified (speaking of dead Divisions). Personally I thought those were some of the coolest guns ever, but then I liked AA Fuel Altereds too. The problem with going down this path is the average cost of a really competitive top tier gun will jump up. Then again, still cheaper than Open and you don't have to pick around after every stage for your SC brass like a chicken in a hen yard.
Competition breeds innovation - as long as the rules don't get in the way. The rules of USPSA, or any sport, need to keep up with the trends that are set by innovation. I'm no longer competing, but my daily carry gun is a Staccato C with a Swampfox Sentinel optic. Seems that should be a reasonable USPSA class.
Production needs to go to 10,000+ units produced, 15rd mags, and 3.5lb trigger pulls (to get rid of faux limited guns), no manual hammer dropping* (striker or decocker only; SA/Da with safety... go shoot limited) and active retention to actually simulate "what people carry on duty", light allowed if total weight
Calibration challenges should require a trip to chrono with ammo from that stage. 165 major is not a problem in open or even limited, hundreds of thousands of rounds in my open and limited major. Never blew up a gun or broke a gun. Nothing wrong with USPSA Carry Optics, should have never went to 140 mm mags, the weight limit has been set high enough they won't have to mess with it again. You got your wish on AIWB, if you are dropping your gun, get a kydex holster with a lever lock. Single action isn't going to happen, why should it be geared to a particular manufacturer like Staccato if it does change to allowing single action? Production is fine as it is, no reason to change anything, if you go to 140mm mags it is basically limited with no single action. No reason to change rules allowing magwells in CO or Production because of a couple of manufacturers.
@@TheHumbleMarksman I have seen more guns dropped with race holsters than Kydex Holsters. Get your AD to propose it next year, see what happens, they seem to change rules the beginning of the year.
@@bretwalley4673 Interesting - my experience has been the opposite - guys doing full speed walk throughs jogging their production / CO gun from the holster. Hell Micah was notorious for that.
@@TheHumbleMarksman only time I have seen anyone drop a gun from Kydex holster was crawling under a wall after reset instead of walking around it. My Kydex holsters have tension knobs that are easy to adjust. I don't care what USPSA does on race holsters for other divisions, wouldn't bother me if they changed the rule allowing them, I would still use kydex for Production, Carry Optics and Single Stack, but don't care what other people use.
As long as Foley is USPSA president the sport will be stuck in the 70-80's. The entire organization needs to be re organized starting with a more modern and less childish president and a modern and up to date marketing and social media departments.
Instead of fixating on specific features, how hard would it be to apply a hit factor penalty to gun weight above 1 lb. for CO? The penalty would be tuned to make pocket pistols competitive with 1911/2011s, so one could get scores for stages with those pistol types, and work backwards. If the weighted scoring is computerized, then the penalty can be non-linear to ensure compact polymer-framed pistols are viable, and people can just shoot what they actually carry instead of getting hung up on gear.
As an IPSC shooter a lot of what you say should be given more thought by the powers that be. When production optics started you could not mill your slide it had to be factory or use a dovetail adaptor plate which limited your choice of platform. I ended up with a Shadow2 and then they allowed milled slides so I milled my Shadow slide and am now much happier. And to what competitive advantage?
Even in IPSC I would like to see PF rules changed. The 160 PF is for open division only. In Classic and Standard divisions the PF is still 170. To reliably pass the 170 floor you need to run 175-180 especially with temperature sensitive ball powders like Titegroup and W244. 175-180PF is no joke! In 40 S&W with 200gr bullets one needs to be careful about pressure in this PF range. On the other hand, the 125PF limit of minor is weak sauce... very light target loads. I would like to see major PF 160 applied to all divisions and minor PF raised to 130.
A few things I've had gripes with in my short time. Bought a Staccato P w/ trijicon SRO in 9mm before shooting competitive. I shoot it great but feel it should be carry optics legal since I am forced to go up against 2011's with frame mounted red dots and the P is a duty model. Also I hate the PF BS. Feels like I should shell out for a SVI for that extra edge shooting major, then I have to spend a little bit more for ammo to shoot this specialty gun. Just an odd concept to me and wish they actually raised major power factor to 175. Right at .40 180gr territory. If we have to buy specialty chambered guns, why not make it towards a caliber many guns are already chambered in vs 38 super that i never knew existed
With respect to the whole race holster vs. Kydex thing, I've only seen a gun fall out of a holster at a match once, and it was with a locking race holster. Iirc, someone bumped the locking lever with one of their mag carriers as they were walking backwards. I feel like this poses more of a risk than Kydex holsters wearing out. I totally agree with a desire to bring CO more in line with today's "best practices" for carry with AIWB, magwells, etc., but there is definitely something to the whole slippery slope argument that it'd just become open minor. I feel like allowing race holsters would be going a bit too far. If we're prioritizing practicality and what's actually used, at least in theory, I don't think race holsters are used anywhere outside of competition. As for lowering the power floor for Major, I'd welcome this with open arms. It'd be a much needed respite for my ears and sinuses lol.
Two disagreement points (one minor the other less-so). 1) Call it 50oz. I know there are duty guys rolling with 48-50oz guns. Past that it is, in fact, just silly. 2) No race holsters. They are faster for draws which doesn't make that big of a difference on a stage but does make a difference over a match. An extra 0.2 every stage adds up and can make an actual difference in match outcome. It also biases classifiers (whole other issue) but there are many classifiers where major movement in % is by tenths of seconds. Your kydex issue seems anecdotal. I've been at this as long as you have and I have NEVER popped a gun out of the holster. So one anecdotal piece of evidence to counter yours. 😜 Otherwise you nailed it spot on. I like the allowable magwell thing but I'm not sure how to enforce it.
just transcribing our conversation via Text for those who read comments: I've had 3 guns fall out of 3 different holsters with high speed walk throughs. I was planning on doing a race holster versus kydex style holster - I will apply it to last years nationals - I'll pick 2 classifiers from each of the last 5 series - at random - and see how it would affect hit factors there as well. and the results will be whatever they are and see how that would affect high hit factors
I have only seen one gun fall on the ground. It was a limited 2011 in a race holster that he claimed he unknowingly bumped the lock off. I have been shooting this stuff for 9 years now and have been to hundreds of matches.
@@redsdot I’m much newer- only been shooting uspsa for about a year and a half. Seen two guns dropped, both from race holsters. I support “allowing” them. But I’d never use one.
Your whole argument is that just because manufacturers are starting to build guns with accessories that a decade ago were only on open guns, means that we need to make these restrictive divisions (CO and Production) become Limited and Open but for minor scoring is stupid.
@@TheHumbleMarksman Production was broken when NROI gave up on tracking OEM vs aftermarket stuff. You are absolutely correct when you talked about that in the video. My radical solution is to eliminate all these divisions and go back to Limited and Open as the only divisions available (Keep L10 and make Open10 for ban states). No different divisions for different power factor. But then again I shoot Open so what I'm proposing conveniently doesn't affect me in any meaningful manner, so I can understand if nobody else likes my idea.
Should there be a consideration for keeping the divisions competitive? I know its the shooter not the gun but if you allow 2011s in CO then everyone will have to go that way to be competitive. (e.g. Open class.)
The guy who just won Limited nationals did so with a P320 Legion modified to be 40. With minor only scoring - it doesn't change much - IDPA has taught us that.
why not kill current divisions and go 2 major groups with power factors - irons major, irons minor, optics major optics minor. Single action etc doesn’t matter. bulk of top competition would take a 2011 open gun into optics major, it wouldn’t change much about most competitors. Limited just falls into an “irons” division. modifications are not restricted. Got a stock glock? Use it. Got a tricked out 2011? Use it. you could argue if both are same scoring minor/major, the shooting skills will be the advantage not the gun. And if it is the gun, well some people just have more money and gear - such is life and divisions today don’t change that either.
Was taking a hard look into getting into USPSA in the CO category but knowing that i cant use my appendix carry holster turns me off, im not going to invest time and money into another setup and build muscle memory on a holster setup i wont use for a carry gun. That just doesnt make sense
The biggest issue is deciding what the division is - is it intended to be the current state of the "service" style guns or is it going to be the optics division for a 2000s era service gun nostalgia division. If we take the apporach we took to production in 5-7 years there is going to be a rules overhaul to "ruin" the division.
The video hasn't run yet, and it's been a couple of years since I competed, but my biggest take away was that USPSA seems to have forgotten what the "P" stands for.
Open, anything goes. Optics, guns with 5" barrels or less, no compensator or porting and "optic" sights. Limited, guns with 5" barrels, no compensator or porting and no optic sights. Production (no longer enforceable due to the innovation of manufactures). Limited 10 (for our shooters in restricted states, same rule as for "Limited" with mag restriction). Revolver, Limited and open divisions based on sight and/or comp or not. PCC, Limited and open divisions based on sight and/or comp or not. Holsters, mag capacity, mag wells....... can be addressed with Stage design/description (Start with x amount of ammo in mag. Gun on table, ...... low ready etc. (50 rd mags don't work well with prone or low port shooting). Required reloads can easily level all the advantages of an "open" gun vs. any other. I believe that the P in USPSA is Practical, not priceless. Is it practical to buy a pistol and have to take stock items (mag well) off of it to make it qualify for a USPSA class? Then allow trigger groups, heavier stocks and guide rods? While were at it, how about rim fire and air soft divisions due to the ammo shortage and to help introduce new shooters to the sport? L-XXX (Life member since 1980s)
the word "carry" itself in the "CO" division is what's wrong IMHO. If by "carry" the intent is guns people would "carry", well then yes, SA guns, mag-wells, even comps should be allowed - they should also have major/minor power factor, as opposed to just minor... Because well, there are people out there "carrying" this kind of crap. So just implement your suggestions, get rid of the term "carry", call it Open-B division and be happy!!
Curious your opinion on using co-witness sights in USPSA competition? Seems like your comp guns have them but for what benefit during competition? Don’t they distract sight picture if solely focused on target and recoil dot tracking?
I’ve shot Carry Optics for a few years now and are currently classified C, but shoot more at a mid-B level. Appendix carry and race holsters don’t belong in the same division. Race holsters in CO would make better sense to me. They allow race holsters in IPSC production, don’t they?
Race vs. duty vs. AIWB holsters, I’m always going with the race holster, if I had the choice. I don’t think there’s any advantage to race vs. duty holsters, but I can’t see any advantage to using a AIWB vs. race or duty holster. By “duty”, I mean competition holsters like open-top, low cut, adjustable, friction retention holster, not the holsters with thumb latches (i.e. Serpa) or straps for retention. I’m also only considering this from the “sport” of practical shooting, not any kind of real-world, training type consideration - that’s a different “sport”. For the sake of conversation…AIWB might be better suited to Production where that’s a division already geared towards off-the-shelf, everyday equipment. If they want to add AIWB and accentuate the “carry” in Carry Optics, then shouldn’t they consider reducing the magazine capacity? Who carries a 140mm magazine in their carry gun? How many rounds usually fit in a flush-fit magazine, 15-18?
Hi all, we were shooters in the U.K. 1981-97. My wife was UKPSA ladies champ 1989. The only thing that we would say is that life is not a level playing field, trying to make it so is a folly, in that the sport is either PRACTICAL PISTOL or Pistol shooting, if it is to be PRACTICAL, there should be NO DIVISIONS,..... "YOU RUN WHAT YOU BRUNG" That is you shoot whatever gun makes you happy for the JOY OF THE CHALLENGE. Practice your skills be as good as you can be, learn from others be safe and ENJOY. .............RANT OVER.
F-that. Divisions are all that allow for fun. As a guy who loves revolvers I wouldn't play I'd go to another sport and spend my money there if there wasn't a place I could feel like I could win. Also it gets tiring getting your ass kicked by PCC guys all the time if you can't tell yourself that they aren't really beating you.
I know people who shoot it. But it's a different game than USPSA. Steel challenge allows for 22s which have an almost negligent amount of recoil. The emphasis in steel challenge is target acquisition. It's great for fundamentals and really learning how your gun behaves. USPSA introduces some several other aspects, such as: keeping ammo count, moving and shooting, reloading, being aware of your surroundings and muzzle to a greater degree, some cardio, strategizing a stage, taking some gambles on your skill and ammo count, precision, shooting from unusual stances and positions, longer range shooting, etc.
Luago does have a home with a non reciprocating optic slide. It's called open. That was your only real shit idea. Everything else was more or less agreeable. Especially the holster idea.
Well, let's see what happens in a few years. If manufacturers start copying Luago's ideas and a non-reciprocating top becomes industry standard, we may need to revisit that.
You know... your opinions about IPSC would be more valid if you'd ever shot IPSC 😘. From what I've seen I think USPSA is superior and I'm more interested in getting IPSC to be more like USPSA and not the other way around.
I shot all last year as a CO shooter - and the 2 years before that. I held these opinions then too. It wouldn’t meaningfully change anything if done correctly
@@TheHumbleMarksman Yea, and you have a lot of credibility since you settled on a plastic gun against a field of S2's. It is just my opinion that 2011s don't belong in the division. It also seems to be a lot more cry to keep them out than let them in... kind of like flashlights.
Loving it! If we're gonna use "Carry" in the division name, then let's get serious- lots of single actions getting carried around, lots of appendix carry going on out in the world. I would argue for an aggressive size and weight restriction, sorry CZ/Tanfo/heavy 2011. Have both the gun with any magazine require to fit the box, and allow major at .40 cal and above. Make it more like a modern Modified, if you can shoehorn a carry comp and optic into your size/weight envelope, go for it. "Open Carry" if you will. Right now, why shoot anything other than CO? In exchange for the slide-ride vs. frame mount optic, 140mm vs 170mm, and minor vs major scoring, CO is not "poor open" as much as it is "easy open".
You're not. He's saying the Beretta 92 and Shadow are heavy, and the weight limit should be based around the most commonly used heavy guns. This opens an interesting door concerning 2011s, as it may necessitate polymer grips rather than metal, which in turn increases muzzle flip. High end 2011s are heavy for pistols.
I'm kidding with the amount of intensity I use - but serious when I say that dots are an objectively better handgun sighting system. Plus in competition all iron sight divisions are dying because of the rise of red dots.
I think USPSA needs new division - Limited CO, which will allow single action guns, magwells, race holsters, ...., but with slide mounted optics. In other words, Limited with slide mounted optics. I also like shooting Steel Challenge (SC), where USPSA rules used and in SC some of current CO division rules does not make sense to me, especially 'no magwell'. In SC DA/SA guns should start with hummer down, so first shot from 5 has different trigger pull and I think, because of this, most shooter prefer striker guns where pull is the same. I like my Shadow 2 OR, but if will should it as SA in Steel Challenge - I'm already in Open division. Limited CO will open gates to many steel frame single action and DA/SA guns.
USPSA should just follow IPSC rules and divisions, with the exception that States that only allow 10 round mags use 10 round mags. It really is simple. Also, your talk about carry optics and "every manufacturer offering an optic ready firearm" is self-contradicting. Have you seen the guns in carry optics? 140 mm mags, thumb rests, slide cuts by machinists, non-slide lock followers, no minimum trigger pull, etc. Not only is it now gunsmith division, it is also so far removed from any "carry" aspect. The reason that CZs and Tanfoglios rule production division is because they make competition guns. Production division is still a competition division. It's still a race, not with stock cars per se, but with factory race cars. And CZ and Tanfoglio and perhaps even Beretta and Phoenix and Arma Zeca and Walther are the only ones making factory race cars. If Glock and Springfield Armory can't be bothered to produce a factory racer, why do we care if they're overmatched or not?
Completely disagree. We jumped the shark on Prod. IPSC is not as in tune with the market and especially not the US consumer market. We will be providing leadership on this.
IPSC is in tune with the market! The worldwide market, that is. That's how the rest of the world does dynamic shooting competitions. It’s why nobody I know of does IDPA, because the rest of the world does not carry concealed. If I wanted to draw from concealment or use tactical gear, then I’d take a tactical or concealed carry class and have at it. But I won’t use my Shadow 2 or TS2, which are strictly competition guns. I see no need to mix the world of carry with the world of competition, because, like I said, the rest of the world does not carry how the US carries. Where I’m from, carry means it’s in a bag, not in a holster on your person. There is no cross-training benefit for us. Not only do we have different laws, we don't have the kind of gun market the US has. Also, really, AIWB holster for competition? How is that not a sweeping violation? I fear for all the femoral arteries in the event of a negligent discharge, especially with no trigger pull weight minimums. But if it’s only for the USPSA, fine. I would think being in tune with the worldwide shooting community would be the goal. Personally, I shoot matches that use IPSC rules because I want to get to the practical shooting world championship- the World Shoot. So I don't see the merit of playing by rules inconsistent with the World Shoot. That's like a competitive swimmer who competes locally but doesn't dream of going to the Olympics. What's the point? But hey, whatever. Last 2 things: 1. USPSA carry optics is absolutely open minor lite given all the mods that are going on there, none of which make the gun any better for carry. Go ahead and conceal carry a gun with a big thumb rest and tell me how that goes. It will become even more “open”-like once your idea of including 2011s in there pushes through. If only a fool matches up against a Shadow 2 with a Glock, well what do you call the guy with a Glock going up against a custom shop 2011? 2. Whenever I watch USPSA videos, it drives me crazy that shooters are allowed to step out of the lines and navigate beyond the firing zones What is the rationale of allowing that? Anyway, thanks for hitting me back. As a shooter and a lawyer here in my country, I love talking and geeking about gun, gun laws, and gun competition rules. I enjoy your channel, and please do more open gun reviews =)
mega 2000 review? the only reasonable price gun you reviewed was that taurus garbage. you like reviewing the expensive guns i honestly never consider buying. those are toys for fools. i would ban all those non practical guns from competition like shadow 2. imo its a joke of a gun. waste of money. 99 percent of people that own it didnt even master shooting basics properly.
I like your content but I strongly disagree with allowing shit like 2011s and the Lago Alien into Carry Optics. At that point you've essentially just turned CO into Open without comps or magwells and it's not going to be the everyman's division anymore, it's just going to be another division dominated entirely by $8k race guns.
I'm not really a competition shooter but I enjoy going fast and being accurate with pistols and would really love to get into one of these practical pistol shooting sports. Humble Marksman, you should definitely do a "Intro into Practical Pistol Shooting" type of video series!
You know what else would prevent the gun from falling out? Allowing thigh straps. I can tighten my T. Rex Arms holster for better retention and the thigh strap will keep the holster from coming up (or flexing) when I’m drawing the gun.
For real
It only took 3-4 years! Straps are on the menu!😂
I don’t know why everyone argues about 2011’s making it “open minor” a dot that moves and isn’t compensated is nowhere near an open gun!!!!!! As far as reducing major PF why not just do away with major?????? It was differentiated to make major able to compete because the added recoil but all they did was make minor not be able to compete. Major is irrelevant in open because the gun muzzle flips less than a minor limited gun because the guns are heavy and the compensators work so well.
Nope keep major. There is a difference in every division but open and it imposes the open tax of unpredictability trashing your gun and costing you a match. I like watching guys with race guns who sneer at us plebes cry when their baby goes kaplooey.
yes but the major loads drive the comp with all that gas which is why open doesn't move much. minor open isn't very effective, doesn't drive the comp. what makes open so magical is the whole package. I suppose the entire community of open shooters would have a mutiny if they were forced to shoot minor, for all the cost involved id rather just have a Carry Optics Shadow 2 and do away with the insane cost and BS associated with playing the Open game. that and the scoring advantage is a huge part off it.
@@W1ldt1m so do I, but the sponsored schmucks have crew served gun maintainance and unlimited range time to make sure the gun runs for the next 300 rds.
I am all for the AIWB change for Carry Optics division for USPSA. I shoot monthly CCW matches in my area from the Appendix holster position with a Glock/RMR. I generally place top three. I only shoot USPSA about 3-4 times per year at local club matches because I am forced to move to the open division. I have fun and general place in the upper third. I really think as you discussed AIWB is how most truly carry a gun with an optic. Until the change is made I will continue to shoot USPSA occasionally for fun. I used to be a member of USPSA. If this rule were changed I would be a member immediately and start shooting monthly. Great vid - keep up the good work!
I have no problems with your proposed rule changes. I will still happily run my GX holster but have no problem if someone would prefer a race holster. But I have two rule changes I’d like to see-
1. Let us add a beavertail. It’s silly that guns like the MR920 are legal but modifying my Glock to have an identical grip suddenly makes the USPSA rule book divide by zero lol.
2. Probably more controversial but I’d like to see lights allowed as long as the light is functional and the gun still flies under the weight limit. It fits with your AIWB theory- I don’t even own any non-light-bearing concealed carry holsters. So ironically enough, when I compete with my Glock it has more recoil than when I carry it.
I thought lights were allowed?
@@burtbiggum499 old comment. They weren’t when I made the comment.
Awesome topic. I think magwells in co should be allowed but not the giant funnels. I'd like to hear thoughts on belt restrictions as well as far as magnetic mag puches. Thank you sir.
"So I can continue to judge you for carrying a gun without a firing pin block - just don't drop it." LOL
1911 Guys: REEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!
Do staccatos not have firing pin blocks?
@@SeanWasThere I think that was aimed at the Shadow 2 folks....
@@redsdot I don’t think many people carry a shadow 2 for carry. But a lot of internet operators carry 2011s.
If you allow 2011s the internet operators wouldn’t have the excuse as to why they don’t compete. Lol
Buy a GX products holster and your gun won't fall out when your RO'g or resetting stages. Unlock the lever to get your gun out when you make ready and your good to go.
Or get a bicycle seat clamp quick release from Amazon for 5 bucks and retrofit the holster you already own
Hell yeah on the Alien and if you’re going that route the 2011 would make sense but also open the door for a serious gear race for CO guns. I’d certainly be buying a optic ready 2011 if they were allowed. Also, hard yes on 160 PF for major
I am 100% for mag wells and race type holsters. If you can have a mag that hangs down 2" below your grip then you should be able to have a mag well. Even IDPA allows mag wells.
Production is what really needs fixed
Agreed the line between Production and Limited 10 is becoming increasingly blurry. With the exception of the magwell.
@@dukenukem1682 the 10 round limit makes it lose attractiveness to new and experienced shooters alike
@@grantb555 probably so people still crazy enough to live in California have a division to play in.
@@jasonmeehan6080 and NY 😞
@@jasonmeehan6080 let them play (suffer) in prod 10 and leave the rest of us alone.
Allow magwells, Remove the requirement for a red dot sight, allow AIWB and weapon lights as frame weights to the polymer bois could catch up to the shadow 2 bois.
I 1000% agree on allowing weapon lights. As long as the gun still fits within the weight limit with a functional light, it should be legal. Hell, I don’t own any non-lightbearring holsters for my Glock which is also my carry gun. So it’s odd that my gun is less awesome in competition form than it is in Carry form.
@@intothefeints8506 Thats fine. I think a heavy gun is only helpful to a certain point. You still have to met the weight limit.
A big part of gun racing is about going fast. Maybe not in every Division but at least in some Divisions innovation should be unstifled. Carry Optics seems like a good place to open it up. We should want manufacturers to design and build better products. Glad that USPSA didn't start in the 1870's or we would have a contingent still arguing today about how to keep the Single Action Army competitive in Production.
Hey now, I'd love a place to run my single action revolvers that doesn't require a thousand dollar costume and a backstory.
I’m down for open minor. It makes more sense than open.
Yes. Why should the flatter shooting gun get a scoring advantage? That's bass ackwards.
I'd be kind of fine with getting rid of major and minor and just having one required power factor. Or maybe separate major into a new heavy metal division. Just a thought...
Pretty good. I think you should look at the legs (what make it different from other divisions, what are the core principles) of each division before you go wanting to change the division
I believe you just perfectly described CO in IDPA. They allow magwells, 2011s, and the Alien with the top mounted optic.
The crazy growth of CO would suggest there is nothing wrong, production and limited is dying, might need to help those iron sights window lickers lol, actually fuck that just delete prod
I want to get all the prod stink off CO
@@TheHumbleMarksman first get the stank off bod
1911s or 2011s already dominate open, standard/limited, and classic/single stack in IPSC and USPSA. I don't see the need to add them to production optics/carry optics. IPSC has also added Production Light and Production Optics Light divisions so polymer guns like the Canik Rival and CZ P 10 F aren't going up against heavier guns like the Shadow 2.
yeah but from what I'm hearing Prod Optics light is for trophy hunters while Prod Optics Heavy is the real division.
Why do you want to turn CO into open with magwells and non-reciprocating dots?
You can already have thumb rests. What's next? Comps in CO?
Because plastic guns get chewed up - increasingly guns are coming with detachable magwells. Only dots like how the alien mounts dots - not frame mount.
@@TheHumbleMarksman Hmm. Then there'd be nothing keeping people from having giant brass magwells like open. If you lowered the weight limit in tandem, maybe. But even then the aluminum versions weigh almost nothing.
The Alien is basically a 5k race gun made for minor, so I don't see the point of changing dot mounting until more guns do that mounting style
Limited Carry Optics; Barrel 5:.4 Inch Bull Barrel no comp.
Mag wells - yes. Race holsters - possibly. Appendix - why? The hip bone rule is gone. Weight - do we really want tungsten flashlights? 2011 - why start an equipment $$$ war?
If you're starved for content ideas, revisiting this concept could be a good video.
1. Separate production and CO handgun rosters. Allow single action guns and guns like the alien arms gun with a frame-mounted red dot.
2. Allow magwells (OEM or aftermarket).
3. Increase weight max to over 60 oz.
4. Allow appendix carry.
5. Allow race holsters.
As of yesterday, appendix carry got accepted (as well as flashlights) so we are at 1 out of the 5 suggestion accepted so far. I'm betting that magwells will be the next change.
Carry optics is what frank Garcia started me on 2 years ago. I still love it. He's moving from open to that this year. Don't need magwells in carry ops. Any I know Mike okey pretty well. If you don't like him, run for his job. Your spot on about the 60ish oz limit. Weak hand should be ruled out cuz I suck at it! Nice vid.
Garcia is going to CO because he can't handle the heat in Open
@@smc4229 hmmmmm he made the world shoot this year (again).......He doesn't even shoot full time anymore, he's busy setting up businesses and making money.
@@bshadrick for when his range shuts down...
Good ideas.
I don’t know if it’s the case in carry optics too, but I would delete the 15 rounds maximum capacity in production. If my gun is ready out of the box to use a 19 round mag, why can’t I use it? Just ban base pads so people don’t start using 30 round sticks.
I also think that race holsters are allowed in IPSC production, so that’s one more reason to allow them in USPSA both prod and CO
Well look at you. You called it. Holster and mag placement restrictions are gone.
Totally fine, as IPSC is an imaginary sport, the course of fire is whatever pops into the course designers imagination. How about the MP40?
You're a USPSA guy so maybe you haven't heard, but Max Leograndis is running a 2-gun match which I think he hopes to turn into a full-on league. The divisions are much more streamlined, including things like allowing slide-ride 2011's in the "duty" division like you mentioned. The match he is running is called 2021 Cobalt Kinetics Practical 2-Gun Championship.
I personally don't know why the divisions have to have such a narrow scope in USPSA. Capacity is a very obvious rule to construct divisions around. Compensated pistols are another. Caliber/power factor is also another... but honestly just push everyone into 9mm except the hardcore gamers in open. And lastly you probably need some sort of "reasonable" weight/size restrictions so that you don't have abominations like open pistols parading around in other divisions.
But everything else is getting lost in the weeds. Irons vs red dot? External mods like stippling? Trigger pull weight? Single action vs striker? Magwells? In each of those categories one is obviously superior, but it's to a small enough degree that I have to ask - who cares? Weren't there several shooters with plastic guns that dominated in limited recently?
So, essentially a kind of minor IPSC Modified (speaking of dead Divisions). Personally I thought those were some of the coolest guns ever, but then I liked AA Fuel Altereds too. The problem with going down this path is the average cost of a really competitive top tier gun will jump up. Then again, still cheaper than Open and you don't have to pick around after every stage for your SC brass like a chicken in a hen yard.
Yeah, if the 2011 was legal in CO I would literally have one set up the next day. So would everyone else lol ;->
I’m in too
Competition breeds innovation - as long as the rules don't get in the way. The rules of USPSA, or any sport, need to keep up with the trends that are set by innovation. I'm no longer competing, but my daily carry gun is a Staccato C with a Swampfox Sentinel optic. Seems that should be a reasonable USPSA class.
Production needs to go to 10,000+ units produced, 15rd mags, and 3.5lb trigger pulls (to get rid of faux limited guns), no manual hammer dropping* (striker or decocker only; SA/Da with safety... go shoot limited) and active retention to actually simulate "what people carry on duty", light allowed if total weight
Calibration challenges should require a trip to chrono with ammo from that stage.
165 major is not a problem in open or even limited, hundreds of thousands of rounds in my open and limited major. Never blew up a gun or broke a gun.
Nothing wrong with USPSA Carry Optics, should have never went to 140 mm mags, the weight limit has been set high enough they won't have to mess with it again.
You got your wish on AIWB, if you are dropping your gun, get a kydex holster with a lever lock.
Single action isn't going to happen, why should it be geared to a particular manufacturer like Staccato if it does change to allowing single action?
Production is fine as it is, no reason to change anything, if you go to 140mm mags it is basically limited with no single action.
No reason to change rules allowing magwells in CO or Production because of a couple of manufacturers.
at the point of a kydex holster with a lever lock - why not just allow race holsters? It's a pointless nuance in my opinion.
@@TheHumbleMarksman I have seen more guns dropped with race holsters than Kydex Holsters.
Get your AD to propose it next year, see what happens, they seem to change rules the beginning of the year.
@@bretwalley4673 Interesting - my experience has been the opposite - guys doing full speed walk throughs jogging their production / CO gun from the holster. Hell Micah was notorious for that.
@@TheHumbleMarksman only time I have seen anyone drop a gun from Kydex holster was crawling under a wall after reset instead of walking around it.
My Kydex holsters have tension knobs that are easy to adjust.
I don't care what USPSA does on race holsters for other divisions, wouldn't bother me if they changed the rule allowing them, I would still use kydex for Production, Carry Optics and Single Stack, but don't care what other people use.
As long as Foley is USPSA president the sport will be stuck in the 70-80's. The entire organization needs to be re organized starting with a more modern and less childish president and a modern and up to date marketing and social media departments.
Foley got Carry Optics and PCC going. The 2 fastest growing classes. You apparently have a problem with him for some reason. He's a good dude.
Instead of fixating on specific features, how hard would it be to apply a hit factor penalty to gun weight above 1 lb. for CO? The penalty would be tuned to make pocket pistols competitive with 1911/2011s, so one could get scores for stages with those pistol types, and work backwards. If the weighted scoring is computerized, then the penalty can be non-linear to ensure compact polymer-framed pistols are viable, and people can just shoot what they actually carry instead of getting hung up on gear.
I just wish I could start rounds in production with my hammer back and safety on.
As an IPSC shooter a lot of what you say should be given more thought by the powers that be. When production optics started you could not mill your slide it had to be factory or use a dovetail adaptor plate which limited your choice of platform. I ended up with a Shadow2 and then they allowed milled slides so I milled my Shadow slide and am now much happier. And to what competitive advantage?
I think IPSC got production more right than USPSA- but I think IPSC totally screwed up with production optics
Even in IPSC I would like to see PF rules changed. The 160 PF is for open division only. In Classic and Standard divisions the PF is still 170. To reliably pass the 170 floor you need to run 175-180 especially with temperature sensitive ball powders like Titegroup and W244. 175-180PF is no joke!
In 40 S&W with 200gr bullets one needs to be careful about pressure in this PF range. On the other hand, the 125PF limit of minor is weak sauce... very light target loads. I would like to see major PF 160 applied to all divisions and minor PF raised to 130.
A few things I've had gripes with in my short time. Bought a Staccato P w/ trijicon SRO in 9mm before shooting competitive. I shoot it great but feel it should be carry optics legal since I am forced to go up against 2011's with frame mounted red dots and the P is a duty model. Also I hate the PF BS. Feels like I should shell out for a SVI for that extra edge shooting major, then I have to spend a little bit more for ammo to shoot this specialty gun. Just an odd concept to me and wish they actually raised major power factor to 175. Right at .40 180gr territory. If we have to buy specialty chambered guns, why not make it towards a caliber many guns are already chambered in vs 38 super that i never knew existed
With respect to the whole race holster vs. Kydex thing, I've only seen a gun fall out of a holster at a match once, and it was with a locking race holster. Iirc, someone bumped the locking lever with one of their mag carriers as they were walking backwards. I feel like this poses more of a risk than Kydex holsters wearing out.
I totally agree with a desire to bring CO more in line with today's "best practices" for carry with AIWB, magwells, etc., but there is definitely something to the whole slippery slope argument that it'd just become open minor. I feel like allowing race holsters would be going a bit too far. If we're prioritizing practicality and what's actually used, at least in theory, I don't think race holsters are used anywhere outside of competition.
As for lowering the power floor for Major, I'd welcome this with open arms. It'd be a much needed respite for my ears and sinuses lol.
Two disagreement points (one minor the other less-so).
1) Call it 50oz. I know there are duty guys rolling with 48-50oz guns. Past that it is, in fact, just silly.
2) No race holsters. They are faster for draws which doesn't make that big of a difference on a stage but does make a difference over a match. An extra 0.2 every stage adds up and can make an actual difference in match outcome. It also biases classifiers (whole other issue) but there are many classifiers where major movement in % is by tenths of seconds.
Your kydex issue seems anecdotal. I've been at this as long as you have and I have NEVER popped a gun out of the holster. So one anecdotal piece of evidence to counter yours. 😜
Otherwise you nailed it spot on. I like the allowable magwell thing but I'm not sure how to enforce it.
just transcribing our conversation via Text for those who read comments:
I've had 3 guns fall out of 3 different holsters with high speed walk throughs.
I was planning on doing a race holster versus kydex style holster - I will apply it to last years nationals - I'll pick 2 classifiers from each of the last 5 series - at random - and see how it would affect hit factors there as well. and the results will be whatever they are and see how that would affect high hit factors
@@TheHumbleMarksman GX vice. I’ll never use a different holster.
@@01HondaS2kXD I'd rather use a locking race holster - personally.
I have only seen one gun fall on the ground. It was a limited 2011 in a race holster that he claimed he unknowingly bumped the lock off. I have been shooting this stuff for 9 years now and have been to hundreds of matches.
@@redsdot I’m much newer- only been shooting uspsa for about a year and a half. Seen two guns dropped, both from race holsters.
I support “allowing” them. But I’d never use one.
Your whole argument is that just because manufacturers are starting to build guns with accessories that a decade ago were only on open guns, means that we need to make these restrictive divisions (CO and Production) become Limited and Open but for minor scoring is stupid.
Your argument that production is fine is proving to be not true. Tastes have changed - run production into the ground
@@TheHumbleMarksman Production was broken when NROI gave up on tracking OEM vs aftermarket stuff. You are absolutely correct when you talked about that in the video.
My radical solution is to eliminate all these divisions and go back to Limited and Open as the only divisions available (Keep L10 and make Open10 for ban states). No different divisions for different power factor.
But then again I shoot Open so what I'm proposing conveniently doesn't affect me in any meaningful manner, so I can understand if nobody else likes my idea.
Get rid of the its just a level 1 match mentality! Some of us mortals aren't quite ready for level 2+ matches.
Should there be a consideration for keeping the divisions competitive? I know its the shooter not the gun but if you allow 2011s in CO then everyone will have to go that way to be competitive. (e.g. Open class.)
The guy who just won Limited nationals did so with a P320 Legion modified to be 40. With minor only scoring - it doesn't change much - IDPA has taught us that.
why not kill current divisions and go 2 major groups with power factors - irons major, irons minor, optics major optics minor. Single action etc doesn’t matter. bulk of top competition would take a 2011 open gun into optics major, it wouldn’t change much about most competitors. Limited just falls into an “irons” division. modifications are not restricted. Got a stock glock? Use it. Got a tricked out 2011? Use it. you could argue if both are same scoring minor/major, the shooting skills will be the advantage not the gun. And if it is the gun, well some people just have more money and gear - such is life and divisions today don’t change that either.
@@ikefleetwood4053 That's how it used to be...Limited and Open.
Interesting
Was taking a hard look into getting into USPSA in the CO category but knowing that i cant use my appendix carry holster turns me off, im not going to invest time and money into another setup and build muscle memory on a holster setup i wont use for a carry gun. That just doesnt make sense
How about a short summary list of the proposed changes for us to ponder prior to the discussion?
The biggest issue is deciding what the division is - is it intended to be the current state of the "service" style guns or is it going to be the optics division for a 2000s era service gun nostalgia division. If we take the apporach we took to production in 5-7 years there is going to be a rules overhaul to "ruin" the division.
@@TheHumbleMarksman Thank you
I wouldn't mind playing carry optics with a staccato p with a red dot.
The video hasn't run yet, and it's been a couple of years since I competed, but my biggest take away was that USPSA seems to have forgotten what the "P" stands for.
It was a P back in the day versus bullseye - so it's still more practical than bullseye!
@@TheHumbleMarksman i see your point, but still think it could be a lot more practical
Open, anything goes.
Optics, guns with 5" barrels or less, no compensator or porting and "optic" sights.
Limited, guns with 5" barrels, no compensator or porting and no optic sights.
Production (no longer enforceable due to the innovation of manufactures).
Limited 10 (for our shooters in restricted states, same rule as for "Limited" with mag restriction).
Revolver, Limited and open divisions based on sight and/or comp or not.
PCC, Limited and open divisions based on sight and/or comp or not.
Holsters, mag capacity, mag wells....... can be addressed with Stage design/description (Start with x amount of ammo in mag. Gun on table, ...... low ready etc. (50 rd mags don't work well with prone or low port shooting). Required reloads can easily level all the advantages of an "open" gun vs. any other.
I believe that the P in USPSA is Practical, not priceless. Is it practical to buy a pistol and have to take stock items (mag well) off of it to make it qualify for a USPSA class? Then allow trigger groups, heavier stocks and guide rods?
While were at it, how about rim fire and air soft divisions due to the ammo shortage and to help introduce new shooters to the sport?
L-XXX (Life member since 1980s)
I shoot IS and I'm not silly!! I saw a video from someone saying that using dots will make you unlearn the fundamentals!! LOL
You are pretty silly if we get honest about it
@@TheHumbleMarksman ouch!
the word "carry" itself in the "CO" division is what's wrong IMHO. If by "carry" the intent is guns people would "carry", well then yes, SA guns, mag-wells, even comps should be allowed - they should also have major/minor power factor, as opposed to just minor... Because well, there are people out there "carrying" this kind of crap. So just implement your suggestions, get rid of the term "carry", call it Open-B division and be happy!!
Curious your opinion on using co-witness sights in USPSA competition? Seems like your comp guns have them but for what benefit during competition? Don’t they distract sight picture if solely focused on target and recoil dot tracking?
You don’t notice them unless the dot isn’t there - SHO or WHO. Not vital but not a bad thing to have
I’ve shot Carry Optics for a few years now and are currently classified C, but shoot more at a mid-B level. Appendix carry and race holsters don’t belong in the same division. Race holsters in CO would make better sense to me. They allow race holsters in IPSC production, don’t they?
Why exclude AIWB if it's no advantage?
Race vs. duty vs. AIWB holsters, I’m always going with the race holster, if I had the choice. I don’t think there’s any advantage to race vs. duty holsters, but I can’t see any advantage to using a AIWB vs. race or duty holster. By “duty”, I mean competition holsters like open-top, low cut, adjustable, friction retention holster, not the holsters with thumb latches (i.e. Serpa) or straps for retention. I’m also only considering this from the “sport” of practical shooting, not any kind of real-world, training type consideration - that’s a different “sport”. For the sake of conversation…AIWB might be better suited to Production where that’s a division already geared towards off-the-shelf, everyday equipment. If they want to add AIWB and accentuate the “carry” in Carry Optics, then shouldn’t they consider reducing the magazine capacity? Who carries a 140mm magazine in their carry gun? How many rounds usually fit in a flush-fit magazine, 15-18?
Magwells should definitely be allowed in CO.
Hi all, we were shooters in the U.K. 1981-97. My wife was UKPSA ladies champ 1989. The only thing that we would say is that life is not a level playing field, trying to make it so is a folly, in that the sport is either PRACTICAL PISTOL or Pistol shooting, if it is to be PRACTICAL, there should be NO DIVISIONS,..... "YOU RUN WHAT YOU BRUNG" That is you shoot whatever gun makes you happy for the JOY OF THE CHALLENGE. Practice your skills be as good as you can be, learn from others be safe and ENJOY. .............RANT OVER.
F-that. Divisions are all that allow for fun. As a guy who loves revolvers I wouldn't play I'd go to another sport and spend my money there if there wasn't a place I could feel like I could win. Also it gets tiring getting your ass kicked by PCC guys all the time if you can't tell yourself that they aren't really beating you.
@@UCQQdmntLgp7x7tuRZojCwUA that's why they should allow braces in pcc.
Does a m&p performance core is automatic for a open division cause of the ported barrel even tho all are stock?
Yes. Compensated or ported barrels are only legal in open
And base from your video which is i really appreciate it. Now it make sense to go to open minor
Beretta 92 in production 🙌 #makingberettasgreatagain
USPSA needs alot of fixing, remove the president and board.
If your name was Mike, you could probably run for uspsa president.
I'm just waiting for Limited 10 to make a comeback after the hicap mag ban passes and new shooters either can't find or afford mags over 10 rounds.
That assumes we still have anything semi auto.
I want uspsa to allow magwell on co..
Just go to optics and irons. Done no more participation trophies.
Does anyone shoot steel challenge anymore? If I was to compete, steel challenge seems like a good place to start.
I know people who shoot it. But it's a different game than USPSA. Steel challenge allows for 22s which have an almost negligent amount of recoil. The emphasis in steel challenge is target acquisition. It's great for fundamentals and really learning how your gun behaves.
USPSA introduces some several other aspects, such as: keeping ammo count, moving and shooting, reloading, being aware of your surroundings and muzzle to a greater degree, some cardio, strategizing a stage, taking some gambles on your skill and ammo count, precision, shooting from unusual stances and positions, longer range shooting, etc.
@@geraldholt2755 Thanks for the info
Luago does have a home with a non reciprocating optic slide. It's called open. That was your only real shit idea. Everything else was more or less agreeable. Especially the holster idea.
Well, let's see what happens in a few years. If manufacturers start copying Luago's ideas and a non-reciprocating top becomes industry standard, we may need to revisit that.
@@geraldholt2755 100% on board.
As a matter of fact, IPSC had their own division for single action carry optics. I like the idea of a co 2011.
You know... your opinions about IPSC would be more valid if you'd ever shot IPSC 😘. From what I've seen I think USPSA is superior and I'm more interested in getting IPSC to be more like USPSA and not the other way around.
I don’t need to shoot IPSC to understand their divisional rules.
2011 should be carry optics.
Are you from Georgia? You look so familiar.
The guy that went open now stresses how CO should be more like open. Leave the rules alone, and keep your Stacatto out.
I shot all last year as a CO shooter - and the 2 years before that. I held these opinions then too. It wouldn’t meaningfully change anything if done correctly
@@TheHumbleMarksman
Yea, and you have a lot of credibility since you settled on a plastic gun against a field of S2's. It is just my opinion that 2011s don't belong in the division.
It also seems to be a lot more cry to keep them out than let them in... kind of like flashlights.
Loving it! If we're gonna use "Carry" in the division name, then let's get serious- lots of single actions getting carried around, lots of appendix carry going on out in the world. I would argue for an aggressive size and weight restriction, sorry CZ/Tanfo/heavy 2011. Have both the gun with any magazine require to fit the box, and allow major at .40 cal and above. Make it more like a modern Modified, if you can shoehorn a carry comp and optic into your size/weight envelope, go for it. "Open Carry" if you will. Right now, why shoot anything other than CO? In exchange for the slide-ride vs. frame mount optic, 140mm vs 170mm, and minor vs major scoring, CO is not "poor open" as much as it is "easy open".
i was gonna shoot ipsc production with a beretta. why am i an idiot. i wont win nothing with shadow 2 or tangfo neither. i dont understand.
You're not. He's saying the Beretta 92 and Shadow are heavy, and the weight limit should be based around the most commonly used heavy guns.
This opens an interesting door concerning 2011s, as it may necessitate polymer grips rather than metal, which in turn increases muzzle flip. High end 2011s are heavy for pistols.
@@geraldholt2755 sao guns are banned in production
@@aslanbosnakoglu8240 you right. Beer got the better of me.
Basically, If you want to fix USPSA... just adopt IPSC rules.
Limited should be 9mm. no major
Jesus too many rules lol
I assume you are kidding when you say people who use iron sights are silly?
I'm kidding with the amount of intensity I use - but serious when I say that dots are an objectively better handgun sighting system.
Plus in competition all iron sight divisions are dying because of the rise of red dots.
I think USPSA needs new division - Limited CO, which will allow single action guns, magwells, race holsters, ...., but with slide mounted optics. In other words, Limited with slide mounted optics.
I also like shooting Steel Challenge (SC), where USPSA rules used and in SC some of current CO division rules does not make sense to me, especially 'no magwell'. In SC DA/SA guns should start with hummer down, so first shot from 5 has different trigger pull and I think, because of this, most shooter prefer striker guns where pull is the same. I like my Shadow 2 OR, but if will should it as SA in Steel Challenge - I'm already in Open division. Limited CO will open gates to many steel frame single action and DA/SA guns.
USPSA should just follow IPSC rules and divisions, with the exception that States that only allow 10 round mags use 10 round mags.
It really is simple.
Also, your talk about carry optics and "every manufacturer offering an optic ready firearm" is self-contradicting. Have you seen the guns in carry optics? 140 mm mags, thumb rests, slide cuts by machinists, non-slide lock followers, no minimum trigger pull, etc. Not only is it now gunsmith division, it is also so far removed from any "carry" aspect.
The reason that CZs and Tanfoglios rule production division is because they make competition guns. Production division is still a competition division. It's still a race, not with stock cars per se, but with factory race cars. And CZ and Tanfoglio and perhaps even Beretta and Phoenix and Arma Zeca and Walther are the only ones making factory race cars. If Glock and Springfield Armory can't be bothered to produce a factory racer, why do we care if they're overmatched or not?
Completely disagree. We jumped the shark on Prod. IPSC is not as in tune with the market and especially not the US consumer market. We will be providing leadership on this.
IPSC is in tune with the market! The worldwide market, that is. That's how the rest of the world does dynamic shooting competitions. It’s why nobody I know of does IDPA, because the rest of the world does not carry concealed.
If I wanted to draw from concealment or use tactical gear, then I’d take a tactical or concealed carry class and have at it. But I won’t use my Shadow 2 or TS2, which are strictly competition guns. I see no need to mix the world of carry with the world of competition, because, like I said, the rest of the world does not carry how the US carries. Where I’m from, carry means it’s in a bag, not in a holster on your person. There is no cross-training benefit for us. Not only do we have different laws, we don't have the kind of gun market the US has.
Also, really, AIWB holster for competition? How is that not a sweeping violation? I fear for all the femoral arteries in the event of a negligent discharge, especially with no trigger pull weight minimums.
But if it’s only for the USPSA, fine. I would think being in tune with the worldwide shooting community would be the goal. Personally, I shoot matches that use IPSC rules because I want to get to the practical shooting world championship- the World Shoot. So I don't see the merit of playing by rules inconsistent with the World Shoot. That's like a competitive swimmer who competes locally but doesn't dream of going to the Olympics. What's the point? But hey, whatever.
Last 2 things:
1. USPSA carry optics is absolutely open minor lite given all the mods that are going on there, none of which make the gun any better for carry. Go ahead and conceal carry a gun with a big thumb rest and tell me how that goes. It will become even more “open”-like once your idea of including 2011s in there pushes through. If only a fool matches up against a Shadow 2 with a Glock, well what do you call the guy with a Glock going up against a custom shop 2011?
2. Whenever I watch USPSA videos, it drives me crazy that shooters are allowed to step out of the lines and navigate beyond the firing zones What is the rationale of allowing that?
Anyway, thanks for hitting me back. As a shooter and a lawyer here in my country, I love talking and geeking about gun, gun laws, and gun competition rules. I enjoy your channel, and please do more open gun reviews =)
mega 2000 review? the only reasonable price gun you reviewed was that taurus garbage. you like reviewing the expensive guns i honestly never consider buying. those are toys for fools. i would ban all those non practical guns from competition like shadow 2. imo its a joke of a gun. waste of money. 99 percent of people that own it didnt even master shooting basics properly.
IWI Masada, Beretta APX, Ruger Security 9, Canik TP9SFX, SCCY CPX2-RD, Canik Elite SC... I've looked at a bunch of reasonable guns
How about you shoot a gun in the class it fits in. If your gun doesnt fit in the class you want then get a different gun.
Okay Boomer
I like your content but I strongly disagree with allowing shit like 2011s and the Lago Alien into Carry Optics. At that point you've essentially just turned CO into Open without comps or magwells and it's not going to be the everyman's division anymore, it's just going to be another division dominated entirely by $8k race guns.