Beautiful information!! I am highly interested in a deeper dive into NOSE ANGLE, specifically how to throw nose-down with a higher launch. Also some cues to use and the biomechanics of the release. 🥂
Got it, thanks for the idea! I've been working hard on my own nose angle recently and have learned a lot more about it so that's something I could tie into a video about all of that.
I'm also looking for cues to improve nose angle, and also how to know if it's working when you don't have a tech disc. I got the opportunity to try a tech disc recently and it indicates my nose angle is in the +2-8 range. Though I was also surprised to see in your simulation that +2 can fly as far as -5, so maybe working on nose angle is less important than I thought?
@@yggyking10 nose angle will matter a lot more for golf shots because we need to maximize forward penetration with lower ceilings and tighter fairways, whereas on distance lines we can overcome poor nose angle with a high line and steep turnover phase 👍
I used my Mechanical engineering degree more in this video, than i have the last 5 years at my CAD Draftsman job lol. Love this content so much and love how to get into the biomechanics and terminology!
haha, I'm glad to hear that but also feel your pain! It's always nice to find an excuse like disc golf for using the real technical stuff we had to learn in school
Finally got to see this video, and loved it! I want to add my vote into the "nose angle" pile, and what you do to try and raise and lower it for your throws, and if that changes based on things like hyzer angle, launch angle, as well as wind speed and direction. Thank you!
Thanks! I thought about discussing launch angle but there is a huge range of launch angles that work depending on arm speed, disc selection, and wind conditions, so I figured I would potentially do more harm than good by boxing people into a number rather than the visual shot shape 👍
Most in-depth video I've seen on the topic. Really great explanations of the physics involved. Just knowing stuff like this can easily add distance without changing your arm speed.
It’s so funny to hear dynamic pressure talked about regarding air instead of liquid as a mechanical engineer. We pretty much only dealt with liquid in college lol
@@JFran0481 haha yeah! I remember being in fluid mechanics with all the ME’s and that was before Aeros did any of the aero specific classes, lots of similarities
Can you please do a video where you dive into the power pocket from a mechanical/physics perspective, evaluating optimal angles, pull through path etc?
@@Catfishbilllly that’s a great one, thank you for the feedback. I’ve been thinking about doing a throwing arm mechanics focused video so I can include power pocket physics and biomechanics in there 👍
Great content Nick! I'm currently struggling with nose angle throwing 380-400ft. Could you do a field work vid showing what works for you at the hit/release point?
My whole life I have been a forehand only player… never learned backhand when I was starting out. A few years ago I hurt my elbow … disc golf related injury. Now, for the first time at age 40, I’m learning how to throw a backhand. It’s been a process of breaking down each part of the throw, foot work, grip, etc. I’m committed to getting great at the backhand. Currently, my mid ranges are at about 300’. Wish the tech disc was more affordable. Someone needs to release a version that can be installed on any disc and charge half of what they are charging now.
I know this was something you and I briefly chatted about in discord, but I think it's fun to also mention that heat is going to affect disc flight as well. The density altitude where I live got up to 4,417ft/1346m today, even though we're only ~1000ft/304m of elevation thanks to the heat.
Absolutely, since density altitude is another unit for air density it can go straight into the dynamic pressure equation 👍 really impacts disc flight like you mention
Thanks! I usually prefer to watch someone's form at full speed and then go frame by frame if I need to see specific positions. The timing and acceleration of the kinetic chain is super important and slow motion can distort it a lot
@@NickKrush.DGandFitI'm a complete disc golf nerd and 18 credits away from my PhD. I been trying to find dissertations or videos that break down the physics behind a frisbee flight. Thank you for doing this!
@@InbredJed82060 oh awesome! best of luck with the rest of your grad program. And funny enough a guy wrote his PhD thesis about this stuff in the mid 2000's, if you google "disc-wing aerodynamics by jonathan potts" it should be available for free.
This is very interesting. Gets me thinking about hyzer flip to turn shots. I’ve tried it a few times but not had much luck. Should give it a go and see. Also do those shirts come in XS? 😂
I know the whole form has to work together, but what would you say would be primary to focus on for increasing exit velocity. whats going to get the mph up?
I hate to give such a non-answer, but the only good answer is to improve form and then get used to the improved form so the body can coordinate it at high speeds 👍
As someone that cannot supinate my forearm at all, this is a little bit uplifting (pun intended) to see you can throw 500 with positive nose angles. I won’t give up on getting my nose angle down but at times it does feel like a mountain to climb with my silly arm.
Absolutely, heck my first 700ft throws were with very positive nose angles so you don't have to worry too much. Working hard on nose will continue benefiting you on the course so smart move to keep at it 👍
@@NickKrush.DGandFit It was a question I had early on (I have been playing for about a year). I even debated switching to lefty since that is how I have to bowl after the arm accident. Still grinding out a lot of form changes with some great progress in the last month thanks to your videos! I am excited to get out and speed up the new form to see how much I have progressed. Max distance PR before any of the form work was 408.
@@DitsyDiscGolfs I have a lot of respect for how you are still getting after it in spite of a big injury like that. I hope the drilling and form work keeps going well! 450+ coming soon
Yeah, I'm really working on angle control right now, because the discs can go almost anywhere at this point when I smash. Which makes all that power almost useless. Broke my standstill record this week with a Lat64 Grace that I found 😋 475' tight line and relatively low, no wind completely flat. So damn close hitting the 500' on standstills now. Because that's a club, no? 😎 My main problem is burning them over and I noticed on the radar that my max power is very inconsistent on the hyzer (need to fix that too in the future). How would you say the flight of a Star Boss is thrown flat and low at near 70mph? No chance burning that over right? I tested a Cloudbreker3 but it burns over on flat.
Nice! 475 is beastly for a standstill and 500 is definitely a club to shoot for, not many people in it. I personally haven't thrown a star boss, but I imagine they are wildly inconsistent from run to run since it's an Innova wide rim driver. I know Wiggins throws ones with a consistent, medium dome which should have plenty of stability and glide for a 70mph thrower 👍
There's a huge range of heights that can be made to work, so I'd shoot for a shape that looks similar to what Drew Gibson threw in the video. The most important thing is that you get a long turn phase and a short-medium length, forward penetrating fade at the end.
I recently changed my grip after seeing how Joey buckets was gripping his. I feel like I’ve gotten more energy into the disc and actually will get snap sometimes. Would you be able to explain different grips and how they impart energy differently?
@@ludvig7473 what I noticed is how much he ensured all his finger tips were on the rim. I had been making sure all of my finger was making contact with the disc rather than just focusing on tips of fingers
I suspect part of the reason that the high line is better is that alot of KE is converted into PE in the first part of the throw due to gravity., Resulting in a lower velocity for the entire throw, and thus lower drag.
That's an great point you make! I've spent some time thinking about that too and think it could be helping a lot. What throws me for a loop though is thinking about how trading some of that potential energy back for kinetic energy while descending fast during the pan-out phase shifts the parameters into an unfavorable part of the lift:drag ratio vs. AoA curve (while in an unforgiving, high-velocity state). It brings up the question of minimizing the average air velocity vs. optimizing for efficient lift over a long flight time. That's why I tend to lean towards the high line providing long flights because it exploits gyroscopic precession (turn and fade) in a way that maximizes time aloft while keeping the instantaneous velocity vectors fairly aligned with the displacement vector. Whereas with a disc that doesn't turn or fade much (the Aerobie ring), the optimal distance line seems to be a pretty straight/flat line because it doesn't need the high turnover pan-out line to maximize time aloft.
@@NickKrush.DGandFit Interesting. If I understand you correctly, you're saying that in order for the vertical acceleration of gravity to convert to horizontal velocity the disc needs to have a positive AOA (at some point), which will inherently bring about more drag?
@@hbloops exactly 👍and the greater the descent rate the disc needs to overcome late in flight, the more AoA that is required because for a wing/disc at a given airspeed (once stabilized late in the pan-out phase), the only way to increase lift is to increase AoA. That's where we start to see the crossover point of throwing a distance line too high and it starting to hurt maximum distance. But, the line height that Drew and I threw in this video is a very safe height to use and can probably be pushed even a little higher with tailwinds.
@@NickKrush.DGandFit That's a great point, didn't think about that. The only way i can see circumventing this is if you are nose down and you get lift in the horizontal direction that offsets the horizontal retardation due to parasitic drag. This way I can imagine a long stable glide with an ideal nose angle where the potential energy of gravity do convert efficiently. In this scenario the descent rate wouldn't need to be that high if the glide factor is high.
@@hbloops absolutely, that's a keen analysis. Discs with 6+ glide help a ton with this if you have high spin rate and are comfortable throwing with steep hyzer angle on positive launch and negative nose. GG is a great example!
A distance line on a forehand will look like a mirror image of the backhand distance line, with the exception being: Forehands have less spin than backhands, so they will turn over steeper and then progress through the turn and fade phases more quickly (compared to a backhand).
@@NickKrush.DGandFit so by nature a forehand doesn’t fly as far as a backhand? I can throw a forehand 350 but my backhand sucks. I’m a lefty that used to play baseball so it’s hard to turn my hips into a backhand.
@@nosuitsgiven correct, forehands have less gyroscopic stability which causes the lift vector to be used less efficiently (more tilted away from the direction of gravity) which wastes kinetic energy. Usually backhands thrown at the same speed will go around 10% further or so. Also, you can try my "evolution 1" drill on my "bracing part 3" video on my channel to see if it helps you get the clockwise hip rotation. I grew up playing QB, baseball, and golf so I had a similar struggle with reversing the hips 👍
![FNAF vs TF2 - Episode 2 [SFM]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/z5b3V2-VLb0/mqdefault.jpg)
Beautiful information!!
I am highly interested in a deeper dive into NOSE ANGLE, specifically how to throw nose-down with a higher launch.
Also some cues to use and the biomechanics of the release. 🥂
Got it, thanks for the idea! I've been working hard on my own nose angle recently and have learned a lot more about it so that's something I could tie into a video about all of that.
I'm also looking for cues to improve nose angle, and also how to know if it's working when you don't have a tech disc. I got the opportunity to try a tech disc recently and it indicates my nose angle is in the +2-8 range. Though I was also surprised to see in your simulation that +2 can fly as far as -5, so maybe working on nose angle is less important than I thought?
@@yggyking10 nose angle will matter a lot more for golf shots because we need to maximize forward penetration with lower ceilings and tighter fairways, whereas on distance lines we can overcome poor nose angle with a high line and steep turnover phase 👍
I used my Mechanical engineering degree more in this video, than i have the last 5 years at my CAD Draftsman job lol.
Love this content so much and love how to get into the biomechanics and terminology!
haha, I'm glad to hear that but also feel your pain! It's always nice to find an excuse like disc golf for using the real technical stuff we had to learn in school
Finally got to see this video, and loved it! I want to add my vote into the "nose angle" pile, and what you do to try and raise and lower it for your throws, and if that changes based on things like hyzer angle, launch angle, as well as wind speed and direction. Thank you!
Glad to hear you liked it Nick! And noted, thank you for the feedback and ideas 👍
Videos analyzing different pros forms would be so interesting
👍 noted, thank you for the feedback!
Heck yeah dude I love nerding out about disc golf
🤝 that's what I like to hear
Great stuff as always! Was hoping you could talk more directly about optimal launch angle in a future video
Thanks! I thought about discussing launch angle but there is a huge range of launch angles that work depending on arm speed, disc selection, and wind conditions, so I figured I would potentially do more harm than good by boxing people into a number rather than the visual shot shape 👍
Most in-depth video I've seen on the topic. Really great explanations of the physics involved. Just knowing stuff like this can easily add distance without changing your arm speed.
thanks for the support Ben!
This was very informative. Great video and explanations.
My pleasure, and thank you for the support!
It’s so funny to hear dynamic pressure talked about regarding air instead of liquid as a mechanical engineer. We pretty much only dealt with liquid in college lol
@@JFran0481 haha yeah! I remember being in fluid mechanics with all the ME’s and that was before Aeros did any of the aero specific classes, lots of similarities
Can you please do a video where you dive into the power pocket from a mechanical/physics perspective, evaluating optimal angles, pull through path etc?
@@Catfishbilllly that’s a great one, thank you for the feedback.
I’ve been thinking about doing a throwing arm mechanics focused video so I can include power pocket physics and biomechanics in there 👍
@@NickKrush.DGandFit Sweet. Looking forward to it
Great content Nick! I'm currently struggling with nose angle throwing 380-400ft. Could you do a field work vid showing what works for you at the hit/release point?
Thanks! 2 mins into this video talks about a practice structure that I think could help you a lot with that:
ruclips.net/video/wRUZ9lf_aF8/видео.html
My whole life I have been a forehand only player… never learned backhand when I was starting out. A few years ago I hurt my elbow … disc golf related injury. Now, for the first time at age 40, I’m learning how to throw a backhand. It’s been a process of breaking down each part of the throw, foot work, grip, etc. I’m committed to getting great at the backhand. Currently, my mid ranges are at about 300’. Wish the tech disc was more affordable. Someone needs to release a version that can be installed on any disc and charge half of what they are charging now.
Why does the title say "Why Nick beat the brakes off of you in a distance comp" for me?
Targeted marketing is wild these days
There's always next time.
🤣 that made me lol Clint
I had to laugh when Nick says "we" are throwing 70 mph 😅
@@yggyking10 hahaha
Gotta love that RuneLite down bottom! OGs know.
I was wondering when someone would comment on it :p haha
I know this was something you and I briefly chatted about in discord, but I think it's fun to also mention that heat is going to affect disc flight as well. The density altitude where I live got up to 4,417ft/1346m today, even though we're only ~1000ft/304m of elevation thanks to the heat.
Absolutely, since density altitude is another unit for air density it can go straight into the dynamic pressure equation 👍 really impacts disc flight like you mention
Great video, but use the playback speed option when reviewing form :)
Thanks! I usually prefer to watch someone's form at full speed and then go frame by frame if I need to see specific positions. The timing and acceleration of the kinetic chain is super important and slow motion can distort it a lot
Furthest is metaphysical and can’t be measured. Farthest is physical and can be measured. Remember that you can measure far, not fur.
👍 I'll correct the title so it's more clear to viewers, thanks for the heads up
Saved to favorites
🤝
@@NickKrush.DGandFitI'm a complete disc golf nerd and 18 credits away from my PhD. I been trying to find dissertations or videos that break down the physics behind a frisbee flight. Thank you for doing this!
@@InbredJed82060 oh awesome! best of luck with the rest of your grad program.
And funny enough a guy wrote his PhD thesis about this stuff in the mid 2000's, if you google "disc-wing aerodynamics by jonathan potts" it should be available for free.
This is very interesting. Gets me thinking about hyzer flip to turn shots. I’ve tried it a few times but not had much luck. Should give it a go and see.
Also do those shirts come in XS? 😂
LOL Matt! You definitely throw a lot further than XS distance though and that's a fact
Let me know how those hyzer flips with glidey discs go 👍
I know the whole form has to work together, but what would you say would be primary to focus on for increasing exit velocity. whats going to get the mph up?
I hate to give such a non-answer, but the only good answer is to improve form and then get used to the improved form so the body can coordinate it at high speeds 👍
As someone that cannot supinate my forearm at all, this is a little bit uplifting (pun intended) to see you can throw 500 with positive nose angles.
I won’t give up on getting my nose angle down but at times it does feel like a mountain to climb with my silly arm.
Absolutely, heck my first 700ft throws were with very positive nose angles so you don't have to worry too much. Working hard on nose will continue benefiting you on the course so smart move to keep at it 👍
@@NickKrush.DGandFit It was a question I had early on (I have been playing for about a year). I even debated switching to lefty since that is how I have to bowl after the arm accident.
Still grinding out a lot of form changes with some great progress in the last month thanks to your videos! I am excited to get out and speed up the new form to see how much I have progressed. Max distance PR before any of the form work was 408.
@@DitsyDiscGolfs I have a lot of respect for how you are still getting after it in spite of a big injury like that. I hope the drilling and form work keeps going well! 450+ coming soon
Barela form breakdown and drills
👍 got it, ty for the idea!
Yeah, I'm really working on angle control right now, because the discs can go almost anywhere at this point when I smash. Which makes all that power almost useless.
Broke my standstill record this week with a Lat64 Grace that I found 😋 475' tight line and relatively low, no wind completely flat. So damn close hitting the 500' on standstills now. Because that's a club, no? 😎
My main problem is burning them over and I noticed on the radar that my max power is very inconsistent on the hyzer (need to fix that too in the future).
How would you say the flight of a Star Boss is thrown flat and low at near 70mph? No chance burning that over right? I tested a Cloudbreker3 but it burns over on flat.
Nice! 475 is beastly for a standstill and 500 is definitely a club to shoot for, not many people in it.
I personally haven't thrown a star boss, but I imagine they are wildly inconsistent from run to run since it's an Innova wide rim driver. I know Wiggins throws ones with a consistent, medium dome which should have plenty of stability and glide for a 70mph thrower 👍
So what height range do you like for max distance lines? I notice im stuck around 375ft +/- 25ft, but im throwing 15-20ft in the air max.
There's a huge range of heights that can be made to work, so I'd shoot for a shape that looks similar to what Drew Gibson threw in the video. The most important thing is that you get a long turn phase and a short-medium length, forward penetrating fade at the end.
@@NickKrush.DGandFit ok thank you for the response!
@@josephfogus6735 you're welcome!
@@NickKrush.DGandFit where are you out of for private lessons
@@josephfogus6735 I don't do in-person stuff anymore because of logistical limitations, so I'm all online through my website now :)
I recently changed my grip after seeing how Joey buckets was gripping his. I feel like I’ve gotten more energy into the disc and actually will get snap sometimes. Would you be able to explain different grips and how they impart energy differently?
That's a good video idea! I'll put it on the list and maybe can work it into a new nose angle video as well
How does he grip?
@@ludvig7473 what I noticed is how much he ensured all his finger tips were on the rim. I had been making sure all of my finger was making contact with the disc rather than just focusing on tips of fingers
@@ludvig7473 and I think eagle McMahon’s grip is similar
Dope shirt 🫵
Thank you friend 🤝
@@NickKrush.DGandFitMy pleasure! We need Better Call Nick Krush fan shirts😂
@@pisteville7797 haha! Maybe one day I'll make some merch one day and do some funny stuff like that
I suspect part of the reason that the high line is better is that alot of KE is converted into PE in the first part of the throw due to gravity., Resulting in a lower velocity for the entire throw, and thus lower drag.
That's an great point you make! I've spent some time thinking about that too and think it could be helping a lot.
What throws me for a loop though is thinking about how trading some of that potential energy back for kinetic energy while descending fast during the pan-out phase shifts the parameters into an unfavorable part of the lift:drag ratio vs. AoA curve (while in an unforgiving, high-velocity state).
It brings up the question of minimizing the average air velocity vs. optimizing for efficient lift over a long flight time. That's why I tend to lean towards the high line providing long flights because it exploits gyroscopic precession (turn and fade) in a way that maximizes time aloft while keeping the instantaneous velocity vectors fairly aligned with the displacement vector.
Whereas with a disc that doesn't turn or fade much (the Aerobie ring), the optimal distance line seems to be a pretty straight/flat line because it doesn't need the high turnover pan-out line to maximize time aloft.
@@NickKrush.DGandFit Interesting. If I understand you correctly, you're saying that in order for the vertical acceleration of gravity to convert to horizontal velocity the disc needs to have a positive AOA (at some point), which will inherently bring about more drag?
@@hbloops exactly 👍and the greater the descent rate the disc needs to overcome late in flight, the more AoA that is required because for a wing/disc at a given airspeed (once stabilized late in the pan-out phase), the only way to increase lift is to increase AoA.
That's where we start to see the crossover point of throwing a distance line too high and it starting to hurt maximum distance. But, the line height that Drew and I threw in this video is a very safe height to use and can probably be pushed even a little higher with tailwinds.
@@NickKrush.DGandFit That's a great point, didn't think about that. The only way i can see circumventing this is if you are nose down and you get lift in the horizontal direction that offsets the horizontal retardation due to parasitic drag. This way I can imagine a long stable glide with an ideal nose angle where the potential energy of gravity do convert efficiently. In this scenario the descent rate wouldn't need to be that high if the glide factor is high.
@@hbloops absolutely, that's a keen analysis. Discs with 6+ glide help a ton with this if you have high spin rate and are comfortable throwing with steep hyzer angle on positive launch and negative nose. GG is a great example!
What about Forehand?
A distance line on a forehand will look like a mirror image of the backhand distance line, with the exception being:
Forehands have less spin than backhands, so they will turn over steeper and then progress through the turn and fade phases more quickly (compared to a backhand).
@@NickKrush.DGandFit so by nature a forehand doesn’t fly as far as a backhand? I can throw a forehand 350 but my backhand sucks. I’m a lefty that used to play baseball so it’s hard to turn my hips into a backhand.
@@nosuitsgiven correct, forehands have less gyroscopic stability which causes the lift vector to be used less efficiently (more tilted away from the direction of gravity) which wastes kinetic energy.
Usually backhands thrown at the same speed will go around 10% further or so. Also, you can try my "evolution 1" drill on my "bracing part 3" video on my channel to see if it helps you get the clockwise hip rotation. I grew up playing QB, baseball, and golf so I had a similar struggle with reversing the hips 👍
@@NickKrush.DGandFit will do. I will prepare and go out this weekend, thanks!
@@nosuitsgiven 👍 you're welcome!
Bro, why aren’t you subscribed to drew? 😅😜
Asking the real questions.
that's a great question haha, I am pleased to inform you the problem is now rectified
@@NickKrush.DGandFit haha! Solving world problems one at a time 🥏💪🏼 keep it up!