Can you imagine being a fly on the wall at the Post Office, Fujitsu,ex employees and retirees as this has unfolded in the media over the last ten days waiting for a knock on the door? I hope prosecutors go after those people with same energy they used against innocent postmasters.
definitely mate and well said yes i would like to be a fly on the wall or invisible, seeing Paula vennells watching the news, and the rest of her ilk..knowing the net is closing in on them.. every knock on the door she jumps...her time will come..when she will face justice.
@@Julieoscar1 There were plans to replace it with Horizon 2.0 later this year, but early trials have gone badly and with the current furore the release has been shelved for now.
Sadly, you might be right. What amazes me is the lack of awareness, (or was it covered up), by the Govt. non-exec director/s sitting on the main POL board, of the prosecutions that began to occur following the roll out in the north of England of Horizon's predecessor in the mid-to late 90's. That trial run threw up faults in the software but nothing was done except prosecute one or two offenders.
On leaving the Post Office in 2019 with a reported bonus of £400,000, CEO Paula Vennells then moved to chair an NHS Trust', she also, ironically, joined an Ethical Advisory Group at the Cabinet Office, and was awarded her CBE. I'm sure the cover up will not only involve the PO and Fujitsu, but into the heart of government too. I have little faith that all those truly responsible for this horrendous miscarriage of justice will suffer. It will likely be one more corporate or political scandal and drawn out enquiry that will elicit a few insincere apologies but nothing custodial. They will walk away with their profits and the taxpayer picks up the legal bills.
There needs to be made a democratic, transparent and publicly run database that ranks companies and individuals based on their behaviour so consumers, workers, companies and employers know who they are dealing with and force people to behave
It doesn't get more damning than this. Working in software delivery for 30+ years I can see how this might happen in the very short term due to incompetence / pushy managers and sales teams, but should have been quickly outed and dealt with.
Yeah, that is what worries me. On the face of it, software problems are not a big deal. Once the issues were discovered, they could easily have fixed them with no real loss to the brand and very little financial cost. What possessed them to drive this insanity for so long? To the point that bankruptcy is a real outcome?
Systems do not produce data, they are designed to record transactions. Period. If they generate differences, that implies that they are not accounting for transactions correctly. Fujitsu need to be held to account. Period.
What a great guy ,stuck to the facts didnt undermine his professionalism by getting emotional and claiming opinion as fact ,people like this that are honest and genuine should be getting the cbe ,s
So, in this experts view between the analyzed data set from 2000, and the work done between 2016-19 there were 'similar' substantive defects. This implies that defects were present in EVERY data set used in EACH case against each subpostmaster. This in turn implies that as staff in both the PO and Fujitsu were working (in a technical role) on this system AND reading in the press of 'successful' prosecutions, and suicides, what were they thinking? Where were the whistleblowers? Both within a private company (Fujitsu) and the PO which for most of that time wholly publicly owned. And perjury as 'known' defective data was presented to the court? It's incredible to me that those staff on the 'inside' of this weren't aware of both the severity and scope of the problem and its impact. Given that suicides were involved could this be 'corporate manslaughter'? Actions which knowingly will lead to harm and death?
Nobody went to prison after Hillsborough, the illegal war in Iraq or Grenfell. No individual can be prosecuted for corporate manslaughter. No government minister can be similarly charged. No senior person at Fujitsu or the post office will ever see the inside of a prison. The system is designed to protect the privileged
As a software engineer you are more likely to be working with test data than actual Production data and if the Service Desk were handling the cases and not escalating them but closing them out to keep case numbers down the software engineers may have been none the wiser - you dont know what your dont know. Hope this all comes out in the investigation.
@@troophq Well normally senior staff/managers (software, service desk and client) are looking at trends. Are we dealing with software defects, faulty hardware, poor comms, poor data or poor training. Tickets reflect issues, and the best way to close tickets is for them not to be opened in the first place. At a minimum, on the service desk team leaders will be issuing advisory notes based on 'signatures', to aid fault finding/aid fixes. Given the length of time these problems were going on I'm desperately disappointed that no one on the IT side blew the whistle. If the MI couldn't be trusted and yet there are convictions being reported in the press. It's like the RAF installing a new RADAR system that reports thousands of Russian bombers above the UK. At some point the concept of 'maybe it's a false positive' must creep in. And then someone up in a fast jet to look. By contrast the Horizon software 'discovered' all these 'thieves' at the same time the Servicedesk saw all these software defects. Where was the professional integrity?
Why is everyone missing the bloody obvious ???? It doesn't matter if the system was flawed or who knew what and when IF anybody has bothered to PROVE the trail of monies All 800 cases and NO TRAILS OF MONIES ? No accounts of employees or their families and friends showing unusual deposits ? For years ???. The details about the software and what was not done to sort the problem our are shocking but to overlook the bloody obvious ( by the prosecution and court judge ) is beyond shocking and beyond incompetent .
@@zerotoleranceforsataniceli4794 "It doesn't matter if the system was flawed or who knew what and when IF anybody has bothered to PROVE the trail of monies" What trail? Subpostmasters were alleged to have stolen money. One 'method' was that they would take cash and apply it to someone's account. And yet the Horizon system was flawed and would not ACCURATELY complete these transactions, or update audit/transaction logs. At close of business there would be a discrepancy and the belief was the Subpostmaster was simply stealing the cash. "All 800 cases and NO TRAILS OF MONIES ? No accounts of employees or their families and friends showing unusual deposits ? For years ???." And this comes back to the 'quality' of the internal investigation by Post Office anti-fraud investigators. Did they act in 'good faith' taking the (flawed) information from Horizon at face value. Or, did they know that the electronic data was flawed, and as such the information provided to the Subpostmaster and later court was *knowingly* incorrect. And does this meet the standard of perjury? "The details about the software and what was not done to sort the problem our are shocking but to overlook the bloody obvious ( by the prosecution and court judge ) is beyond shocking and beyond incompetent ." Not quite. The presumption is that a 'mechanical device' is reliable and accurate UNLESS it can be demonstrated that it isn't. This is a key flaw in the handling of electronic data. Add in a legal requirement for 'prosecutors' to release exculpatory information the belief is, at the time at least, this provided an adequate safeguard. And yes, serious questions have been asked about this 'standard', given that AI is becoming increasingly available whose behaviour is less deterministic. That is run the same 'request' 30 days apart and you are NOT guaranteed to get an identical result. There is a useful article in The Guardian explaining this today (12/1/24). On the basis that exculpatory information by the Post Office was 'knowingly'? withheld might be enough, in its own right to render any/all prosecutions based on Horizon evidence unsafe. At the core of this case is a power and knowledge imbalance. The Post Office had both and they withheld information. It is unclear the precise mechanism they used to 'achieve' this, with the investigator stating that he was 'non-technical', yes signing a (PO supplied) statement to the court verifying the veracity of the Horizon system and its information. The Post Office introduced a new, highly flawed system in 1999 and suddenly it 'discovered' a large number of thieves. The technical staff knew that there were defects and yet 'somehow' nobody was able to put together that there could be a correlation with the number of instances of fraud and the number of 'problems' with the system. I am curious to know how many 'suspected thieves' worked at Main Post Offices. That is Post Office operated facilities ALSO using Horizon. This would have served as a 'baseline' for 'data/system' problems. There is no reason to assume that the Horizon implementation in Main Post Offices was 'better', so how many Post Office employees were dismissed for theft from those branches? Or was that because more staff meant effective separation of duties and as such they couldn't 'pin' discrepancies on a specific individual? How many staff were 'invited to quietly leave'? This too would have been exculpatory information in the Subpostmasters' cases.
This has to be a watershed on Public-Private partnership arrangements with national services. We must oppose any Public-Private meddling with the NHS at all and other parts of our lives where data is involved.
Keep hoping! Wait until AI is responsible (presumably meaning that no real person will be culpable) for all this kind of accounting and prosecution in many other fields. A machine learning entity will never have a gut feeling that something isn’t right.
Disagree strongly. The lengthy and drawn out case of miners’ dust compensation review and estimation of payments was totally in the control of the NCB with their expensive lawyers. They dillied and dallied for many years in the hope that the old miners would die off thus reducing the bill. The NCB bureaucracy also worsened the miners lot by recommending and authorising thieving solicitors to represent the miners. Bureaucracies of all shades can become immoral.
Wow, his evidence is devastating for the post office position. He is so measured and clear in his analysis and doesn't get tempted to comment outside his own skillset. Heads do really need to roll on this. What's his name??
I'd been listening to Nick Wallis's excellent BBC radio podcast on this not realising it was about to explode. It seems that every time i think the Post Office can't plumb the depths of depravity any more than they have, there are more vicious acts of theirs that come to light. What we're hearing in this video is another such example. Justice will not be done until people end up in prison for this travesty. I highly recommend Nick Wallis's podcast to anybody who hasn't heard it.
It will be interesting if Paula Vennells decides to whistleblow on any Government officials who may have been aware of the issues. After all, as the only shareholder the Government would have a vested interest in suppressing all of this
So the post office and fujitsu are cover up evidence,also stredding documents,they lie to the vourt ie perverting the course of justice,creating NDA'S COVERING ILLEGAL ACTIVITY,SURLY THE NDA'S CANT BE LEGAL.SO THE POST OFFFCE AND FUJITSU ARE INVOLVED IN A CONSPIRACY. THIS NEEDS TO BE PROSECUTED AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL,THESES DSTES INDICATE EDD DAVEY WATCH?????
@@frankgallacher4799 Only works if she's prosecuted for anything. All the parties are exposed so they'll probably all agree to be good chaps about this kind of thing and not rock the boat too much and the country wants to move on and considers the matter closed
respectfully disagree its not gonna happen public interest wont allow it ,for it just to be brush under the carpet, that's my opinion anyway, off course you have yours and i respect that. @@isbestlizard
This hiding away of evidence must of been given to higher management and government officials,hopefully heads will roll and more so called honours will be forced to be shamefully returned and compensation paid out.
A help desk is for helping customers, and the typical proxy measurement for that is closing tickets. There needs to be a separate level about spotting the patterns in the tickets and surfacing the systemic issues.
A good & functioning helpdesks priority is always to close tickets as fast as possible. They will pass on the reported fault & then wait on their 2nd or 3rd line for the resolve or response.
Yep they just pass it on to a second line team and move on. Doesn’t matter if it’s the right second line team or not just make the stats look good. Or just record as not an IT problem and possible fraud …
It's been said on numerous talk shows and in the news, that the PO are doing 'Everything they can' to help and sort this scandal out. However, no one is asking them 'What exactly are you doing?', because nothing has been done yet. Have they started to make a case against Fujitsu? Have they started to pay money? Have they gone to each innocent victim and formally apologised? Have they started to ask for money back from shareholders or employees who knew the PO was lying to victims? Have they named these people to the police for them to be investigated?
The more I hear and read about this scandal the more angry and upset I become. That senior people in the P.O. were prepared to prosecute people and withhold information from the defence council is just beyond belief. I just hope that the full force of the law is brought open them all.
Yes and it proves that people in business still do conspire with each other. There doesn't have to be a formal conspiracy, like the light bulb conspiracy years ago with the Phoebus cartel, they have the same interests and go to the same clubs and events. They know to stick together. They know how to be ambiguous when they talk so people not in the know think they mean one thing but people in the know, know what they truly mean.
It is unacceptable that this information was buried. Everyone who knew about this report and who knew about the prosecutions was involved in perverting the course of justice. It is a tragedy that the court case Bates v PO did not trigger an immediate post office led review and acquitel of nearly all the sub post masters. Fortunately the BBC drama has forced a change of approach but it shouldn't depend on entertainment to remedy an injustice.
@@CesarHernandez-bz8xci completely agree with you on this. For 20 years this been taken to BBC ITV Sky. They were so up themselves with BLM , woke , blended Trans etc agenda. Drinks gate , Island, Andy have nothing compared to this but they would not deal with this.
The evidence for the failures of the horizon system were there since 2003 yet the post office chose to ignore it, resulting in the subsequent arrest, prosecution and jailing of so many innocent people sadly some losing their lives in the process yet the post office keeps claiming there’s nothing wrong with the system. An absolute travesty of justice.
Sunak promised "government accountability" on 25/10/22. Page 2 of Braverman's letter to Sunak on 14/11/23 she states; "You never had any intention of keeping your promises".
Where is the money the Post Office took from the postmasters? The money these poor people "paid back". This should be paid back on top of compensation.
The consequential losses should also be calculated and repaid. If someone had to sell their home 20 years ago as a result of this and received, say, £50k for it and it is now worth £500k, they should receive £500k to put them back into the position they would have been in had they not been forced to sell their home. That's in addition to payment for pain and suffering, lost opportunity to work, etc, etc.
The money appeared as unexplained profits in other ledgers. This contributed to PO profits and therefore some became larger bonuses for those at the top.
Fujitsu did not believe Jason Coyne was a "true expert" Fujitsu were omnipotent when it came to their own system. I believe the PO Senior Manger who was initially involved in the Clevelys case left shortly after the case ended. This does not excuse Post Office from having doubts but they insisted data was kept longer in future.
Maybe Fujitsu had a very large conflict of interest fortunately the Judge in the Class action in 2019 did not have one ironically when the Lawyers accused him of having one or showing bias. In my experience the Judge would have kept calm about this but privately he and his clerk would be very unimpressed and even subconsciously at least feel it proved the Judgment was more than just made on the balance of probability ie over 51 per cent as a civil test but 100 percent and justified exemplary damages at the highest level when assessed. The Lawyers and or those instructing them must have been desperate to make such an application to have the judge remove himself .
Such a report should have been disclosed under the Criminal Procedure and Investigation Act. This report would have assisted the defence of the accused sub post masters. Not to disclose is to pervert the course of justice
Systemic denial of clear and known problems. Hiding of those facts allowed unfettered persecution and unlawful prosecution of sub-postmasters. Senior managers of neither the PO nor Fujitsu robustly challenged the unreasonably high rate of problems and prosecution and the performance failures in the system. Help-desks pushed to deliberately ignore or mis categorise incident reports and close them early (you get what you measure...). Group-think pushed back any thought that they might be in any way at fault. There must have been people who knew about this but were likely told to not make waves. This whole story is a typical air-crash in constitution. Just one observation - lots has been made about old-etonian's being at the centre of man issues recently. Look closely at the education of Paula Vennels. Potentially worrisome Public School attitudes again at the centre of the maelstrom. Just saying.....
Yes, NHS, Pharma, Charities. They all should be the best of the best in terms or moral standing and doing the right thing but often they are the worst. People say we need to keep paying these people really good wages so we get the best. I say pay them less. Pay them minimum wage, so then they wont think that amount of money is worth lying and covering up for. They see it as worth doing for a 6 figure sum and a 7 figure pension though.
It goes back to the law firms who advise the post office investigation on prosecution, We need know who they were....and what was there part in this horrible debacle to sub post office
Aside from this very important specific post office case, I worked in an international call center for a Top 5 US healthcare company. Ideally, they wanted calls closed in 2-3 minutes. All issues requiring follow-up were supposed to be routed to a multitude of narrow problem-solvers. Many times the routing didn't work or nobody followed up so the customer might have to call back over and over. I ran into this same kind of call center mania with my own Top 5 US bank. I even spoke with corporate headquarters and got a, "Presidential Priority," for my problem and still no follow-up. When our US shifts ended (16 hours per day) an Asian call center took over. I could hardly understand a word they said speaking English. Good luck, customers. Your satisfaction is not a priority. Slashed expenses is the priority.
this is perverting the course of justice at the very least people involved have to be prosecuted and jailed if found guilty. this is a serious abuse of power in public office. any jail term or fines should be double normal.. if this doesn't happen the problem will be repeated.
Neither the Post office, nor Fujitsu, seriously looked into the software problems. It was clear from the start, since multiple post office stations were having problems. You know the postmasters that replaced the accused had the same problems. There was no ‘Absence of Malice’ in the lies and treatment that the postmasters experienced.
Then just who were the culprits and should they be penalised.? I doubt that the HOC has the will nor the power to get the perpetrators of this injustice to pay for their sins....
In all the investigations I've watched, so far, it seems all the staff were very poorly trained, didn't understand the law, shirked their responsibilities, were, and still are, prepared to tow the party line, had very low morals, and no respect for honesty and truth. Also no conscience regarding the pain and suffering they were personally causing. That includes Management, Investigation Officers, and Lawyers. I suspect the Post Office would have terminated employment for any staff who asked questions, or suggested that they were doing things wrong. Those up the top seem deliberately corrupt, constantly give answers that are unbelievable, and obscure the truth! Not only has it been a highly corrupt business, for at least the last two decades, but clearly it continues to be. Their practices are evil.
When data is transmitted from one location to another there is always a risk of data loss or error. Such locations may be separated by a few feet or a few thousand miles, the problem is the same. I am referring here to *serial* data of which the well-known RS232 is an example. There are more sophisticated transmission standards. But in professional systems the possibility of data loss or error is eliminated by the use of data detection and/or correction techniques. If the received data is *OK* then the receiver replies to the sender with an "ACK". If *NOT OK* the reply is a "NACK" in which case the sender will re-transmit the code as many times as necessary until an "ACK" is received. So the question is, does the Post Office data transmission system use error detection and/or correction techniques? If so, the the faults are surely within the software or hardware of the computers themselves. The user terminals in the sub-post offices are less likely to be the culprits.
One thing I don’t really understand is why it was such a big thing for them to just say “yep, it seems there are serious problems, we need to fix them”. They ordered the system from Fujitsu, they must have had some sort of support contract and the ability to say “this system is not fit for purpose”. Why oh why did they think it was better to pretend everything was fine, and let innocent people’s lives get destroyed? Idiotic and evil beyond belief.
There should be no excuses for the levels of intimidation and bullying the Post Office brought against innocent people It's not just their actions of the post office that should be examined and brought to justice. The role of the legal system should be called into question. A legal system that coerces people into makinh guilty pleas, even when they are innocent is a legal system thaf does not work. A legal system that requests an independent IT expert to produce a report, then does not consider the report, is a legal system that is not working. A legal system that sees hundreds of people charged with the same offence, yet either fails to connect the dots, or can't be bothered to act upon them, is a legal system not fitting for the 21st century.
It's difficult to listen to this... and difficult to believe. This isn't just about trying to do the best for your employer. It's about ruining people's lives knowing there's a good possibility they're innocent. Everyone involved leading this fraud must be investigated and punished.
Perverting The Court's Of Justice ,is a serious offence, and if person's convicted of a crime/crime's, a custiodial sentence might be imposed upto 20 years in prison, which is set by English Criminal and Civil Law.
Every single Post Office functionary, Manager, Director, external investigator, relevant member of any external Law Firm needs to spend serious time in Jail and never be allowed near a "position of trust" again.
Has anyone thought that a rogue Fujitsu programmer, fraudulently transferred cash, from sub-post offices, into a bank account set up to receive the funds?
Let's assume CEO's have brains. So if you were the Post Office CEO, chances are (no pun intended), you'd have at least some small knowledge of statistical probability. If you saw upwards of two hundred of your sub postmasters defrauding your organisation, your brain would start to think about that number....if you couldn't see it yourself, you'd ask a professional statistician, 'what is the probability of two hundred + independent people simultaneously engaging in fraud?'. Even a high school student can see the point. The CEO and the government chose to protect their balance sheet, until such times that it became politically expedient to do otherwise. People died to protect profit and shareholder value. This is modern Britain, for which politicians take NO responsibility.
Here is the thing, apart from all the other aspects of this affair the role of Lord Neuberger in the Recusal seems to have escaped attention. I have therefore pasted the following ‘The role of Lord Neuberger in the recusal fiasco (Justice Fraser) should be investigated’ on as many RUclips articles as I could, about ten, but when I checked to see if there was any response I discovered they had all been taken down. This Kafkaesque episode staggers one at every turn, even when Big brother has been outed he seems to be still working away! I really want to know why Lord Neuberger interfered , if the recusal had succeeded the whole noble attempt at taking on the stinking system would have failed.
Cover up on a grand scale !!!!! Shame we aren’t America 🇺🇸 cos then there would be proper accountability possibly jail terms and that would be paramount , there needs to be proper justice for the victims yes compensation for what they paid with their own money and haven’t got back to the sums they paid and compensation for the damages to health and families but ultimately get those who were responsible. You know out there who you are ??? A shocker for the innocent man and woman , could be any of us and I remember these people cared for their customers a bedrock of their communities and hunted down mercilessly by their employers and the government who should have supported them. Post office even paid off the unions too I hear ? There s needs to be accountability and jail to stop this ever happening again. Thank you ITV just showing the power of TV for the good of the public who they serve too.
There is at last something very positive arising out of this appalling scandal I am referring to the many brilliant it and technical experts who are now analysing the horizon system and educating the rest of us We need your scrutiny of what fujitsu and the post office have Been getting up to
It's hard to believe that all this was a executive policy to use any method to protect the brand and the enormously expensive system from criticism. Thay need to brought to account.
Can i be clear as Im not sure of the facts on this point. When post masters rang up the "call centre helpline".... Were they spesking to PO staff or Fujitsu staff???? It sounds like it was the PO.
It was deliberately kept like that, so they could have an excuse...computer glitch...yeah right.. You said it correctly. They knew, documented beforehand, and continued business as usual, to the detrimental effect of others
So, we shouldn't say it was a cover-up but it would be fair to say that when the report was received it was put somewhere and covered up rather than left on display. But not a cover-up. There's a big difference...
This expression always makes me imagine someone burying a bunch of old files off a layby of an A road at three in the morning looking all panicked and deshevelled
Let us hope that there will be prison sentences for those in the cover up, those that committed perjury, I have had know faith in the establishment for many years, if there is know prison sentence for anyone in charge of post office or those that developed horizon and anywho lied for all these years then I can finally accept that the government and establishment are corrupt and know longer believe anything that is said.
We're told that corruption is rife in Ukraine. That is undoubtedly true but the same applies here in the UK Blair should be in jail, Vennells should be in jail. A good portion of the government too should be in Jail. Corruption is rife in this country.
Nor any right minded individual, but unfortunately those in power rather like the taste and think more of keeping themselves rich at the expense of the little people! Hopefully prosecution’s will follow, although I doubt it!
I think a factor that's key in all this is the way the sundry agencies- legal teams, expert technicians, security teams etc etc - were deliberately kept separate. I’m sure there's good operational reasons for doing this, but the perhaps unintended consequences are that there's the risk of incomplete comms and sadly taking human nature into account, the tendency for people to be able to lay blame at others door, due to the separation.
If people go to jail because evidence was deliberately hidden then those who hid the evidence should serve an even longer term in jail!
Under English law that hardly ever happens, and I would presume such people are promoted because they have skills that the corporate world values.
I think we all know that is not going to happen. I doubt if anyone will end up in court over this, the establishment protect their own.
it's only because election thats tories are doing this don't by it they are trying to Con you
They delay it for 3 years so people forget and move on, then no one serves jail time
Yep , fraud has been committed
Can you imagine being a fly on the wall at the Post Office, Fujitsu,ex employees and retirees as this has unfolded in the media over the last ten days waiting for a knock on the door? I hope prosecutors go after those people with same energy they used against innocent postmasters.
definitely mate and well said yes i would like to be a fly on the wall or invisible, seeing Paula vennells watching the news, and the rest of her ilk..knowing the net is closing in on them..
every knock on the door she jumps...her time will come..when she will face justice.
You do realise the franchise post offices are still using this system.. with exactly the same problems.
unlikely since the prosecutors in question WERE part of the post office....according to a report I heard about the structure of this quango.
this has gone the same way the police police them self all one way
@@Julieoscar1 There were plans to replace it with Horizon 2.0 later this year, but early trials have gone badly and with the current furore the release has been shelved for now.
Corruption of a criminal nature. PO and Fujitsu staff need to face trial.
A massive cover up, completely abhorrent. Heads must roll.
This is common practice, they docit because they no there is no repercussion.
Some minor employees will get done. The senior staff will get away with it.
Money talk's, no-one big will go the prison!
The plot thickens.
They really have to send people to prison for this mess absolutely
Having worked in many IT roles over 36+ years, including running service desks, I can see how this could happen. I believe this expert witness.
I can see a film produced in ten years time will end with this: 'No one from the government, Fujitsu or the Post Office was ever prosecuted'
And the public will get back to being fed their 'news' that Markle did something and the folks at the top will get another job. On it goes.
Sadly, you might be right. What amazes me is the lack of awareness, (or was it covered up), by the Govt. non-exec director/s sitting on the main POL board, of the prosecutions that began to occur following the roll out in the north of England of Horizon's predecessor in the mid-to late 90's. That trial run threw up faults in the software but nothing was done except prosecute one or two offenders.
And hopefully you will be proved wrong....
I think you shouldn't underestimate the level of feeling. We will support Alan Bates with private prosecution.
On leaving the Post Office in 2019 with a reported bonus of £400,000, CEO Paula Vennells then moved to chair an NHS Trust', she also, ironically, joined an Ethical Advisory Group at the Cabinet Office, and was awarded her CBE. I'm sure the cover up will not only involve the PO and Fujitsu, but into the heart of government too. I have little faith that all those truly responsible for this horrendous miscarriage of justice will suffer. It will likely be one more corporate or political scandal and drawn out enquiry that will elicit a few insincere apologies but nothing custodial. They will walk away with their profits and the taxpayer picks up the legal bills.
The Reverend Paula Vennells, the only corruption boxes she missed was being a Tory MP and a member of the Met Police
Yep exactly
There needs to be made a democratic, transparent and publicly run database that ranks companies and individuals based on their behaviour so consumers, workers, companies and employers know who they are dealing with and force people to behave
@@crappymeal Excellent idea
Sincerely hope that's not the case but alas think your correct
Isn't that perverting the cause of justice. Somebody should be serving time for this cruel fiasco.
It doesn't get more damning than this. Working in software delivery for 30+ years I can see how this might happen in the very short term due to incompetence / pushy managers and sales teams, but should have been quickly outed and dealt with.
Yeah, that is what worries me. On the face of it, software problems are not a big deal. Once the issues were discovered, they could easily have fixed them with no real loss to the brand and very little financial cost. What possessed them to drive this insanity for so long? To the point that bankruptcy is a real outcome?
Systems do not produce data, they are designed to record transactions. Period. If they generate differences, that implies that they are not accounting for transactions correctly. Fujitsu need to be held to account. Period.
What a great guy ,stuck to the facts didnt undermine his professionalism by getting emotional and claiming opinion as fact ,people like this that are honest and genuine should be getting the cbe ,s
This interview needs to be viewed by everyone!!!!
So, in this experts view between the analyzed data set from 2000, and the work done between 2016-19 there were 'similar' substantive defects. This implies that defects were present in EVERY data set used in EACH case against each subpostmaster.
This in turn implies that as staff in both the PO and Fujitsu were working (in a technical role) on this system AND reading in the press of 'successful' prosecutions, and suicides, what were they thinking?
Where were the whistleblowers? Both within a private company (Fujitsu) and the PO which for most of that time wholly publicly owned. And perjury as 'known' defective data was presented to the court?
It's incredible to me that those staff on the 'inside' of this weren't aware of both the severity and scope of the problem and its impact. Given that suicides were involved could this be 'corporate manslaughter'?
Actions which knowingly will lead to harm and death?
Nobody went to prison after Hillsborough, the illegal war in Iraq or Grenfell. No individual can be prosecuted for corporate manslaughter. No government minister can be similarly charged. No senior person at Fujitsu or the post office will ever see the inside of a prison. The system is designed to protect the privileged
As a software engineer you are more likely to be working with test data than actual Production data and if the Service Desk were handling the cases and not escalating them but closing them out to keep case numbers down the software engineers may have been none the wiser - you dont know what your dont know. Hope this all comes out in the investigation.
@@troophq
Well normally senior staff/managers (software, service desk and client) are looking at trends.
Are we dealing with software defects, faulty hardware, poor comms, poor data or poor training. Tickets reflect issues, and the best way to close tickets is for them not to be opened in the first place. At a minimum, on the service desk team leaders will be issuing advisory notes based on 'signatures', to aid fault finding/aid fixes.
Given the length of time these problems were going on I'm desperately disappointed that no one on the IT side blew the whistle. If the MI couldn't be trusted and yet there are convictions being reported in the press.
It's like the RAF installing a new RADAR system that reports thousands of Russian bombers above the UK. At some point the concept of 'maybe it's a false positive' must creep in. And then someone up in a fast jet to look.
By contrast the Horizon software 'discovered' all these 'thieves' at the same time the Servicedesk saw all these software defects.
Where was the professional integrity?
Why is everyone missing the bloody obvious ????
It doesn't matter if the system was flawed or who knew what and when IF anybody has bothered to PROVE the trail of monies
All 800 cases and NO TRAILS OF MONIES ?
No accounts of employees or their families and friends showing unusual deposits ?
For years ???.
The details about the software and what was not done to sort the problem our are shocking but to overlook the bloody obvious ( by the prosecution and court judge ) is beyond shocking and beyond incompetent .
@@zerotoleranceforsataniceli4794
"It doesn't matter if the system was flawed or who knew what and when IF anybody has bothered to PROVE the trail of monies"
What trail?
Subpostmasters were alleged to have stolen money. One 'method' was that they would take cash and apply it to someone's account. And yet the Horizon system was flawed and would not ACCURATELY complete these transactions, or update audit/transaction logs.
At close of business there would be a discrepancy and the belief was the Subpostmaster was simply stealing the cash.
"All 800 cases and NO TRAILS OF MONIES ?
No accounts of employees or their families and friends showing unusual deposits ?
For years ???."
And this comes back to the 'quality' of the internal investigation by Post Office anti-fraud investigators.
Did they act in 'good faith' taking the (flawed) information from Horizon at face value. Or, did they know that the electronic data was flawed, and as such the information provided to the Subpostmaster and later court was *knowingly* incorrect. And does this meet the standard of perjury?
"The details about the software and what was not done to sort the problem our are shocking but to overlook the bloody obvious ( by the prosecution and court judge ) is beyond shocking and beyond incompetent ."
Not quite. The presumption is that a 'mechanical device' is reliable and accurate UNLESS it can be demonstrated that it isn't. This is a key flaw in the handling of electronic data.
Add in a legal requirement for 'prosecutors' to release exculpatory information the belief is, at the time at least, this provided an adequate safeguard.
And yes, serious questions have been asked about this 'standard', given that AI is becoming increasingly available whose behaviour is less deterministic. That is run the same 'request' 30 days apart and you are NOT guaranteed to get an identical result. There is a useful article in The Guardian explaining this today (12/1/24).
On the basis that exculpatory information by the Post Office was 'knowingly'? withheld might be enough, in its own right to render any/all prosecutions based on Horizon evidence unsafe.
At the core of this case is a power and knowledge imbalance. The Post Office had both and they withheld information. It is unclear the precise mechanism they used to 'achieve' this, with the investigator stating that he was 'non-technical', yes signing a (PO supplied) statement to the court verifying the veracity of the Horizon system and its information.
The Post Office introduced a new, highly flawed system in 1999 and suddenly it 'discovered' a large number of thieves. The technical staff knew that there were defects and yet 'somehow' nobody was able to put together that there could be a correlation with the number of instances of fraud and the number of 'problems' with the system.
I am curious to know how many 'suspected thieves' worked at Main Post Offices. That is Post Office operated facilities ALSO using Horizon. This would have served as a 'baseline' for 'data/system' problems. There is no reason to assume that the Horizon implementation in Main Post Offices was 'better', so how many Post Office employees were dismissed for theft from those branches?
Or was that because more staff meant effective separation of duties and as such they couldn't 'pin' discrepancies on a specific individual?
How many staff were 'invited to quietly leave'?
This too would have been exculpatory information in the Subpostmasters' cases.
Thisbis terrible. Vennells must have been aware of these issues. Police must investigate
What a wrong doing and a vile way to treat these people.😮
This has to be a watershed on Public-Private partnership arrangements with national services. We must oppose any Public-Private meddling with the NHS at all and other parts of our lives where data is involved.
Keep hoping! Wait until AI is responsible (presumably meaning that no real person will be culpable) for all this kind of accounting and prosecution in many other fields. A machine learning entity will never have a gut feeling that something isn’t right.
Post Office isnt public it was privatised in 2015.
@@0greeny0001it’s owned by the taxpayers
Disagree strongly. The lengthy and drawn out case of miners’ dust compensation review and estimation of payments was totally in the control of the NCB with their expensive lawyers. They dillied and dallied for many years in the hope that the old miners would die off thus reducing the bill.
The NCB bureaucracy also worsened the miners lot by recommending and authorising thieving solicitors to represent the miners. Bureaucracies of all shades can become immoral.
You’ve seen where it leads with private public partnerships with prison system
Wow, his evidence is devastating for the post office position. He is so measured and clear in his analysis and doesn't get tempted to comment outside his own skillset.
Heads do really need to roll on this. What's his name??
I'd been listening to Nick Wallis's excellent BBC radio podcast on this not realising it was about to explode. It seems that every time i think the Post Office can't plumb the depths of depravity any more than they have, there are more vicious acts of theirs that come to light. What we're hearing in this video is another such example. Justice will not be done until people end up in prison for this travesty.
I highly recommend Nick Wallis's podcast to anybody who hasn't heard it.
It will be interesting if Paula Vennells decides to whistleblow on any Government officials who may have been aware of the issues. After all, as the only shareholder the Government would have a vested interest in suppressing all of this
agree she will no doubt spill her guts in return for a shorter sentence
So the post office and fujitsu are cover up evidence,also stredding documents,they lie to the vourt ie perverting the course of justice,creating NDA'S COVERING ILLEGAL ACTIVITY,SURLY THE NDA'S CANT BE LEGAL.SO THE POST OFFFCE AND FUJITSU ARE INVOLVED IN A CONSPIRACY. THIS NEEDS TO BE PROSECUTED AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL,THESES DSTES INDICATE EDD DAVEY WATCH?????
@@frankgallacher4799 Only works if she's prosecuted for anything. All the parties are exposed so they'll probably all agree to be good chaps about this kind of thing and not rock the boat too much and the country wants to move on and considers the matter closed
respectfully disagree its not gonna happen public interest wont allow it ,for it just to be brush under the carpet,
that's my opinion anyway, off course you have yours and i respect that. @@isbestlizard
The club of elites will close ranks.
This hiding away of evidence must of been given to higher management and government officials,hopefully heads will roll and more so called honours will be forced to be shamefully returned and compensation paid out.
UK Government definitely hide and cover up evidence if it's detrimental to them. 1st hand account.
The solicitor's involved and management in the postoffice who were involved in burying this report need to face jail time.
Totally agree. Liars.
Awful greedy nasty people
The question is.. who at the PO authorised that report being buried?
It might be Government. There the one's who chose Fujitsu for the contract and still back them to the tune of £5.2 billion in other contracts.
Listen to the inquiry, it's insane.
Who is responsible is some where like Monty Carlo living on millions of pound of a taxpayer money paid in severance pay and pensions.
elaine cottam
How Post Office people are not going to jail over this is itself CRIMINAL....
An IT help desk more focussed on closing tickets than finding the root cause of issues and fixing them. Who knew?
A help desk is for helping customers, and the typical proxy measurement for that is closing tickets. There needs to be a separate level about spotting the patterns in the tickets and surfacing the systemic issues.
A good & functioning helpdesks priority is always to close tickets as fast as possible. They will pass on the reported fault & then wait on their 2nd or 3rd line for the resolve or response.
Yep they just pass it on to a second line team and move on. Doesn’t matter if it’s the right second line team or not just make the stats look good.
Or just record as not an IT problem and possible fraud …
It's been said on numerous talk shows and in the news, that the PO are doing 'Everything they can' to help and sort this scandal out. However, no one is asking them 'What exactly are you doing?', because nothing has been done yet. Have they started to make a case against Fujitsu? Have they started to pay money? Have they gone to each innocent victim and formally apologised? Have they started to ask for money back from shareholders or employees who knew the PO was lying to victims? Have they named these people to the police for them to be investigated?
The more I hear and read about this scandal the more angry and upset I become. That senior people in the P.O. were prepared to prosecute people and withhold information from the defence council is just beyond belief. I just hope that the full force of the law is brought open them all.
Any network device that exists normally has a backdoor remote access for support. It was wrong of the Fujitsu & Post Office bosses to hide this.
2 entities covering up a crime,isn't this a conspiracy??????
Yes and it proves that people in business still do conspire with each other. There doesn't have to be a formal conspiracy, like the light bulb conspiracy years ago with the Phoebus cartel, they have the same interests and go to the same clubs and events. They know to stick together. They know how to be ambiguous when they talk so people not in the know think they mean one thing but people in the know, know what they truly mean.
It is unacceptable that this information was buried. Everyone who knew about this report and who knew about the prosecutions was involved in perverting the course of justice.
It is a tragedy that the court case Bates v PO did not trigger an immediate post office led review and acquitel of nearly all the sub post masters.
Fortunately the BBC drama has forced a change of approach but it shouldn't depend on entertainment to remedy an injustice.
It is not BBC drama, it's ITV. Railways, NHS, BBC, and many other institutions are a reflection of UK's crumbling, sadly.
@@CesarHernandez-bz8xci completely agree with you on this. For 20 years this been taken to BBC ITV Sky.
They were so up themselves with BLM , woke , blended Trans etc agenda. Drinks gate , Island, Andy have nothing compared to this but they would not deal with this.
The evidence for the failures of the horizon system were there since 2003 yet the post office chose to ignore it, resulting in the subsequent arrest, prosecution and jailing of so many innocent people sadly some losing their lives in the process yet the post office keeps claiming there’s nothing wrong with the system. An absolute travesty of justice.
Sunak promised "government accountability" on 25/10/22. Page 2 of Braverman's letter to Sunak on 14/11/23 she states; "You never had any intention of keeping your promises".
Yes he didn't
Where is the money the Post Office took from the postmasters? The money these poor people "paid back". This should be paid back on top of compensation.
Probably went towards Paula Vennells 5million bonus over 5 years.
The consequential losses should also be calculated and repaid. If someone had to sell their home 20 years ago as a result of this and received, say, £50k for it and it is now worth £500k, they should receive £500k to put them back into the position they would have been in had they not been forced to sell their home. That's in addition to payment for pain and suffering, lost opportunity to work, etc, etc.
The money appeared as unexplained profits in other ledgers. This contributed to PO profits and therefore some became larger bonuses for those at the top.
How is the actions he describes not perverting the course of justice and perjury in every court case.
Absolutely disgusting 😮
The lawyers are complicit, as is inevitably the case
This. The lawyers who helped the post office cover this up must be removed from the bar and stopped from ever practising law again
@@irishandscottish1829makes my blood boil that such incompetence and dishonesty casts shade on the decent lawyers in this world who work for justice
People need to go to jail and be held accountable
Let’s try and hold the people at the top accountable. The talent who get massive salaries for all the responsibilities they have.
This is totally shocking …….a massive cover up by the post office ….they should now be taken to court for this! 😮
With all these "computer errors or faults" it seems a strange coincidence that the faults only benefitted the Post Office and never the subpostmaster.
Fujitsu did not believe Jason Coyne was a "true expert" Fujitsu were omnipotent when it came to their own system. I believe the PO Senior Manger who was initially involved in the Clevelys case left shortly after the case ended. This does not excuse Post Office from having doubts but they insisted data was kept longer in future.
Maybe Fujitsu had a very large conflict of interest fortunately the Judge in the Class action in 2019 did not have one ironically when the Lawyers accused him of having one or showing bias. In my experience the Judge would have kept calm about this but privately he and his clerk would be very unimpressed and even subconsciously at least feel it proved the Judgment was more than just made on the balance of probability ie over 51 per cent as a civil test but 100 percent and justified exemplary damages at the highest level when assessed. The Lawyers and or those instructing them must have been desperate to make such an application to have the judge remove himself .
@@terryharrigan7705 Yep. The Lawyers "or those who instructed them" . We ought to find out who.
elaine cottam
Having seen outside consultants write reports based on what management want them to say this guy has real backbone.
Such a report should have been disclosed under the Criminal Procedure and Investigation Act. This report would have assisted the defence of the accused sub post masters. Not to disclose is to pervert the course of justice
Systemic denial of clear and known problems. Hiding of those facts allowed unfettered persecution and unlawful prosecution of sub-postmasters.
Senior managers of neither the PO nor Fujitsu robustly challenged the unreasonably high rate of problems and prosecution and the performance failures in the system.
Help-desks pushed to deliberately ignore or mis categorise incident reports and close them early (you get what you measure...).
Group-think pushed back any thought that they might be in any way at fault. There must have been people who knew about this but were likely told to not make waves. This whole story is a typical air-crash in constitution. Just one observation - lots has been made about old-etonian's being at the centre of man issues recently. Look closely at the education of Paula Vennels. Potentially worrisome Public School attitudes again at the centre of the maelstrom. Just saying.....
Very interesting and very worrying, but sadly not surprising as similar results in other big business who don’t want to hear the truth.
DWP are the same, corrupt management looking after each other.
Yes, NHS, Pharma, Charities. They all should be the best of the best in terms or moral standing and doing the right thing but often they are the worst.
People say we need to keep paying these people really good wages so we get the best. I say pay them less. Pay them minimum wage, so then they wont think that amount of money is worth lying and covering up for. They see it as worth doing for a 6 figure sum and a 7 figure pension though.
This is criminal, all concerned. Post Office, legal eagles including the judges, the Lawers, they are all need to be jailed .
hats off to this man for putting forward the info he has just discust
It goes back to the law firms who advise the post office investigation on prosecution,
We need know who they were....and what was there part in this horrible debacle to sub post office
Is there an offence of providing false evidence to secure a conviction?
I'm not a lawyer, but is it "malicious prosecution"?
Aside from this very important specific post office case, I worked in an international call center for a Top 5 US healthcare company. Ideally, they wanted calls closed in 2-3 minutes. All issues requiring follow-up were supposed to be routed to a multitude of narrow problem-solvers. Many times the routing didn't work or nobody followed up so the customer might have to call back over and over. I ran into this same kind of call center mania with my own Top 5 US bank. I even spoke with corporate headquarters and got a, "Presidential Priority," for my problem and still no follow-up. When our US shifts ended (16 hours per day) an Asian call center took over. I could hardly understand a word they said speaking English. Good luck, customers. Your satisfaction is not a priority. Slashed expenses is the priority.
this is perverting the course of justice at the very least
people involved have to be prosecuted and jailed if found guilty.
this is a serious abuse of power in public office.
any jail term or fines should be double normal..
if this doesn't happen the problem will be repeated.
Neither the Post office, nor Fujitsu, seriously looked into the software problems. It was clear from the start, since multiple post office stations were having problems. You know the postmasters that replaced the accused had the same problems. There was no ‘Absence of Malice’ in the lies and treatment that the postmasters experienced.
Those responsible for covering up evidence, and hiding the truth to the full extent of the law
Then just who were the culprits and should they be penalised.?
I doubt that the HOC has the will nor the power to get the perpetrators of this injustice to pay for their sins....
In all the investigations I've watched, so far, it seems all the staff were very poorly trained, didn't understand the law, shirked their responsibilities, were, and still are, prepared to tow the party line, had very low morals, and no respect for honesty and truth.
Also no conscience regarding the pain and suffering they were personally causing.
That includes Management, Investigation Officers, and Lawyers.
I suspect the Post Office would have terminated employment for any staff who asked questions, or suggested that they were doing things wrong.
Those up the top seem deliberately corrupt, constantly give answers that are unbelievable, and obscure the truth!
Not only has it been a highly corrupt business, for at least the last two decades, but clearly it continues to be.
Their practices are evil.
Fully detached from humanity
is money really worth more than morals and sound moral standing?
Hiding evidence is surely a criminal offence, directors should be prosecuted and sent to prison
When data is transmitted from one location to another there is always a risk of data loss or error. Such locations may be separated by a few feet or a few thousand miles, the problem is the same. I am referring here to *serial* data of which the well-known RS232 is an example. There are more sophisticated transmission standards. But in professional systems the possibility of data loss or error is eliminated by the use of data detection and/or correction techniques. If the received data is *OK* then the receiver replies to the sender with an "ACK". If *NOT OK* the reply is a "NACK" in which case the sender will re-transmit the code as many times as necessary until an "ACK" is received.
So the question is, does the Post Office data transmission system use error detection and/or correction techniques? If so, the the faults are surely within the software or hardware of the computers themselves. The user terminals in the sub-post offices are less likely to be the culprits.
Blair knew and wanted to cancel the project but was -afraid of his opinion poll rating- faced down by Fujitsu.
How can people be so nasty? This is unprecedented.
Perverting the course of justice surely
One thing I don’t really understand is why it was such a big thing for them to just say “yep, it seems there are serious problems, we need to fix them”. They ordered the system from Fujitsu, they must have had some sort of support contract and the ability to say “this system is not fit for purpose”. Why oh why did they think it was better to pretend everything was fine, and let innocent people’s lives get destroyed? Idiotic and evil beyond belief.
Ed Davey must resign and return his knighthood!
😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢SHAMEFUL😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢MY HEART BLEEDS FOR THE INNOCENTS 😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢
There should be no excuses for the levels of intimidation and bullying the Post Office brought against innocent people
It's not just their actions of the post office that should be examined and brought to justice. The role of the legal system should be called into question.
A legal system that coerces people into makinh guilty pleas, even when they are innocent is a legal system thaf does not work.
A legal system that requests an independent IT expert to produce a report, then does not consider the report, is a legal system that is not working.
A legal system that sees hundreds of people charged with the same offence, yet either fails to connect the dots, or can't be bothered to act upon them, is a legal system not fitting for the 21st century.
It's difficult to listen to this... and difficult to believe. This isn't just about trying to do the best for your employer. It's about ruining people's lives knowing there's a good possibility they're innocent. Everyone involved leading this fraud must be investigated and punished.
Perverting The Court's Of Justice ,is a serious offence, and if person's convicted of a crime/crime's, a custiodial sentence might be imposed upto 20 years in prison, which is set by English Criminal and Civil Law.
The heads at the post office need to face prison sentences.
Labour, Lib Dems and Tories all embroiled in this - vote REFORM for real change.
Every single Post Office functionary, Manager, Director, external investigator, relevant member of any external Law Firm needs to spend serious time in Jail and never be allowed near a "position of trust" again.
Has anyone thought that a rogue Fujitsu programmer, fraudulently transferred cash, from sub-post offices, into a bank account set up to receive the funds?
Let's assume CEO's have brains. So if you were the Post Office CEO, chances are (no pun intended), you'd have at least some small knowledge of statistical probability. If you saw upwards of two hundred of your sub postmasters defrauding your organisation, your brain would start to think about that number....if you couldn't see it yourself, you'd ask a professional statistician, 'what is the probability of two hundred + independent people simultaneously engaging in fraud?'. Even a high school student can see the point. The CEO and the government chose to protect their balance sheet, until such times that it became politically expedient to do otherwise. People died to protect profit and shareholder value. This is modern Britain, for which politicians take NO responsibility.
It was deliberate. They wanted to close post offices across the country.
Here is the thing, apart from all the other aspects of this affair the role of Lord Neuberger in the Recusal seems to have escaped attention.
I have therefore pasted the following ‘The role of Lord Neuberger in the recusal fiasco (Justice Fraser) should be investigated’ on as many RUclips articles as I could, about ten, but when I checked to see if there was any response I discovered they had all been taken down.
This Kafkaesque episode staggers one at every turn, even when Big brother has been outed he seems to be still working away!
I really want to know why Lord Neuberger interfered , if the recusal had succeeded the whole noble attempt at taking on the stinking system would have failed.
Brilliant clarity from the computer expert. G Ire
Perverting the course of Justice?
They've a keystroke logger as part of the software, this shouldn't have gone anywhere, other than ironing out of all the bugs.
Cover up on a grand scale !!!!! Shame we aren’t America 🇺🇸 cos then there would be proper accountability possibly jail terms and that would be paramount , there needs to be proper justice for the victims yes compensation for what they paid with their own money and haven’t got back to the sums they paid and compensation for the damages to health and families but ultimately get those who were responsible. You know out there who you are ??? A shocker for the innocent man and woman , could be any of us and I remember these people cared for their customers a bedrock of their communities and hunted down mercilessly by their employers and the government who should have supported them. Post office even paid off the unions too I hear ? There s needs to be accountability and jail to stop this ever happening again. Thank you ITV just showing the power of TV for the good of the public who they serve too.
There is at last something very positive arising out of this appalling scandal
I am referring to the many brilliant it and technical experts who are now analysing the horizon system and educating the rest of us
We need your scrutiny of what fujitsu and the post office have
Been getting up to
Post Office, Grenfell, PPE, MP's expenses etc etc the list goes on and on and no doubt this is only a fractiom of the corruption going on.
Why hasn't starmer been questioned he was head of the cps during the post office scandal.
It's hard to believe that all this was a executive policy to use any method to protect the brand and the enormously expensive system from criticism. Thay need to brought to account.
We interrupt our program of deceit to offer you this gem ...
Conspiracy to pervert the course of justice is a pretty serious crime.
Can i be clear as Im not sure of the facts on this point.
When post masters rang up the "call centre helpline"....
Were they spesking to PO staff or Fujitsu staff????
It sounds like it was the PO.
The Post Office at least has offered some scraps of compensation.Fujitsu hasn't offered any upfront money!
ALL REPARATIONS?, SHOULD BE PAYED BYE THOSE PERSONALLY/OR,WHO/WHOM COVERED UP THE CORRUPTION??, NO TAXPAYER'S MONEY SHOULD BE USED.
Somebody tested the software and knew it’s bugs.
It was deliberately kept like that, so they could have an excuse...computer glitch...yeah right..
You said it correctly. They knew, documented beforehand, and continued business as usual, to the detrimental effect of others
Wow solicitors need to go to prison for failure to disclose
So, we shouldn't say it was a cover-up but it would be fair to say that
when the report was received it was put somewhere and covered up rather than left on display. But not a cover-up. There's a big difference...
This should be shared widely
Knowingly withholding exculpatory evidence is a crime, isn’t it? It’s a surely a moral failure - which is worse.
Those responsible in Fujitsu and PO should be jailed - this is all just shocking.
This expression always makes me imagine someone burying a bunch of old files off a layby of an A road at three in the morning looking all panicked and deshevelled
Let us hope that there will be prison sentences for those in the cover up, those that committed perjury, I have had know faith in the establishment for many years, if there is know prison sentence for anyone in charge of post office or those that developed horizon and anywho lied for all these years then I can finally accept that the government and establishment are corrupt and know longer believe anything that is said.
Surely he kept a copy of the report.
What’s the betting no one will be accountable and lesson learned. Yet we the public pick up the bill
We're told that corruption is rife in Ukraine. That is undoubtedly true but the same applies here in the UK Blair should be in jail, Vennells should be in jail. A good portion of the government too should be in Jail. Corruption is rife in this country.
Shocking. Heads are going to roll.
Not Surprising to ME !
Nor any right minded individual, but unfortunately those in power rather like the taste and think more of keeping themselves rich at the expense of the little people! Hopefully prosecution’s will follow, although I doubt it!
I think a factor that's key in all this is the way the sundry agencies- legal teams, expert technicians, security teams etc etc - were deliberately kept separate. I’m sure there's good operational reasons for doing this, but the perhaps unintended consequences are that there's the risk of incomplete comms and sadly taking human nature into account, the tendency for people to be able to lay blame at others door, due to the separation.