The video's creator has since removed their video and put up a new response with an apology. Kudos to them, I've been in a similar situation and it can be rough when something you believed, turned out to be wrong.
This is how we find REAL truth, as in any scientific/math discussion. We check, ,check again and always keep our eyes and minds open. Well done guys. edit: got a sub from me
Like Attack power. It just takes into consideration what's permanent and say in the tooltip it doesn't include all the situational stuff like lots of glyphs. And explicitly tell people it's just a very crude way of showing the real power.
i couldn't understand why all this stuff was going wrong for me even in D3 until i realized, oooohhh, the character sheet is bullsh*t! it didn't make me a good player, but i got a LOT more successful in the game.
This video reminds me of something that was said during a Lean Six Sigma Green Belt class I was taking. "In God we trust, everyone else, bring your data". And that's what you do, you bring the data so you can show your work. It's awesome and I appreciate it. Keep up the good work.
I'm pretty new to Diablo, only first started playing when it came to gamepass and I've not played a Diablo before this. I don't know the shortest way to explain the question(s) I currently have that puzzle me the most but I will try my best and apologies in advance for a very large comment lol. The thing that has plagued me the most currently is a combination of 2 things. Those being attack power and damage numbers (mainly which is better out of outright "+damage" vs "+damage to close) but in general I'm seeking clarification and this video so far is the only one that helped even remotely. I see the discourse that it's hard to trust what you see in game etc etc, but I'm currently playing Barb and I'm in the 70s level wise, specifically the bash/cleave build and to start my actual line of questioning.....say for example you temper a weapon, and you obviously can get either raw damage added or damage to close and the range for damage to close is much higher, yet damage to close doesn't show my attack power go up or my bash skill numbers when I inspect my character, and raw damage makes both go up. Does that mean damage vs close is useless? Is the game's coding for things just weird and bad that way? Which one is better? Etc, etc...heavily appreciate anyone who took the time to read and/or respond to this and sorry again for wall-o-text
Attack power is not real and doesn't actually relate to any damage calculation in the game. You can completely ignore it and shouldnt use it to measure if a build is stronger. All additive damage is equally valuable, you just need to determine which you can apply the most often and get the highest number of that. If you have 50% chance to crit you basically only get 50% of +crit damage on gear. Etc etc.
@@MacroBioBoi very good to know, thank you for reading and replying! It's been a little confusing and frustrating as I get further toward the end game and trying to really figure out what is good or at least how to optimize etc
This is one of the stranger way on how they add/multiplicate critical damage multiplier. The base x50% damage is flat damage additive value whose value depends on your base damage (combination of all your damage both additive and multiplicative) which basically means your inherent critical damage multipliiier = base damage x 1.5, easily understandable. There are lotf of games which use inherent critical damage multiplier and usually at 50% but any other additional critical damage multiplier bonus are added directly from 50%, say I have 80% additional critical damage that would means 50+80= 130% critical damage multiplier. What I do not understand is when you have additional critical damage multiplier instead of adding that to the base 50%, it is multiplied with 1.5 and then the base 50% is added. For example say I have 80% additional critical damage modifier from other sources, seemingly my total critical damage multiplier should be 50+80 = 130% but instead its (80x1.5)+50= 120+50, = 170%. Where did the 1.5 multiplier comes from? Why did they add that extra multiplier? Is it to buff damage? Is the tooltip wrong? I guess only the developer could answer.
Probably too late for you to read a comment but anyway. Sorcs are still seeing weirdness with vuln multipliers like Frigid Fate legendary node and Storm Swell aspect. Both of these indicate a 30%[x] but dummy testing shows they are closer to half that or 15%[x]. Pezradar at Blizzard said the team tested and everything is working as intended but testing shows it clearly is not. Lurkin has been trying to explain to the community but no one has solved what is going on. Do you have any thoughts?
great video, but might be even better to show with/without using the Essence, and see how much improvement given your base damage is much higher than the crit damage. anyway, subscribed
As someone, who has no immediate interest in getting a Ph.D in D4 theory crafting, could someone please provide a list of 'known knowledgeable' creators or channels, who are generally considered able to create workable and optimized builds for the various classes, please? I subscribed to the like button, as requested.
I was always calculating crit as 550% Crit Damage (BaseDamage + (BaseDamage * (CritDamage - 50)/100))) * 1.5 (100 + (100 * 5)) * 1.5 CritDamage could be the additive damage bucket, this example is just for crit only though So 100 base damage with 550% crit = 900 Damage but kinda makes sense that you naturally get 50% crit, so all the crit damage you get is just additive on top so it turns into: (BaseDamage + (BaseDamage * (CritDamage/100))) * 1.5 (100 + (100*5.5))*1.5 = 925 damage
You made this shit way too complicated brother. Say 100 base damage. Normal hit = 100 damage. Base crit damage (as in 0 added crit damage from gear 0 paragon) = a 50% damage boost. This means the default effect of a critical strike is 150% damage. 100 base damage with no crit = 100 * 150% = 100 * (150/100) = 150 damage. If you had 550% ADDED crit damage, your TOTAL crit damage would be 550 (added amount) + 50(base "default" amount) = 600%. So your damage would be: 100 * 600% = 100* (600/100) = 600.
I honestly find it funny that anyone would think crit damage would work other than how you've described it. Crit damage is like... always applied as a final multiplier in every single game with crit damage scaling. Maybe I've played too many RPGs/gachas but this is so intuitive to me I'm shocked that anyone would expect otherwise.
The OP addresses specifically a couple of Sorc aspects and Sorc Paragon legend nodes, which seem to be worded as a multiplicative damage boost, when apparently they only multiply with a specific additive dmg stat. Im sure they actually tested it and not only looked at the char sheet. But yeah I would not be surprised in the slightest if Blizz put powers in the game calling them "do [x] damage" when in reality its totally not that.
I must actually admit that both of the builds Ive used from maxroll were politely said 'not of the best quality'. Im speaking of your pure golem necro with kallans aspect and dual swing dust devil from maxroll website. Once I respeced into build from one of the main german streamer it was night and day difference! I really wish your platform well, as Ive been using maxroll for years, but im being well more careful when it comes to your builds. All the best regardless!
I really wish the devs would get their shit in line and make the items on the character screen actually make logical sense. Problem exists for D3 as well but D3 has far less "buckets" in it's game.
I still have no idea how to stack or prioritize affixes, I appreciate your hard work though after watching all three vids on damage calculation. I wish there was a summary at the end to say.. so after the moderate mind number match class :) .. but very detailed and I am sure accurate, after all this.. would be nice to see something more like you need to do X thing.. Example here.. of gear with bad balance or use of multipliers ..result is or here is example of good gear with right multipliers and what it looks like in the game not just in a google sheet .. aim for something like this.
I haven't really kept up with D4 between preseason and season 4, but didn't they announce that they were gonna change the mechanics of crit / vuln to not be (fully) multiplicative?
To be honest , I think that the elixer in the game totally fucks over a few classes, where necro can one shot all ( its the elixer) and sorc its like tickling
Your info on the damage calculations made me drop Crit dmg, and opt in for more Vuln damage for my Puncture build. But stlll use Crit Chance a source of extra damage, due to the x0.5 global multiplier. It's quite nice. I do have a question, so when getting additional sources of Crit Damage multiplier. Such as say the Rogue's Deadly Ambush legendary node which is x0.22 Crit Dmg to enemies affected by trap skills, does this mean a crit would now multiply by (Base x 0.72) would it be (Base x 0.50) x 0.22) Or would it be (Base x 0.50) + (additive Crit DMG x 0.22)? I assume it's the first one, that it being the same multiplier means it just stacks that.
FYI +50% base crit damage = ( 1+0.5 = 1.5 as decimal). stat bonus +81.3% crit damage is (1+0.813 = 1.813). then they have gone 1.5(base) x 1.813(increase) = 2.7195. now in reverse .... 2.7195 - 1 = 1.7195 express that value as % - 171.9% (displayed number only to 1 decimal place but no rounding) so its actually multiplicative not additive. At least in the tool tip. hope this helps some one
Just as Batman protects Gotham City from its foes, MacroBioBoi safeguards the Diablo 4 community from the insidious threats lurking within their own kin.
So if they're global multipliers does that mean I should not try to e.g. raise my crit dmg from 500 to 550 but rather increase my vulnerable dmg from 0 to 50 assuming all enemies are vulnerable? So generally do not put all your eggs in one basket?
Wait... So we have buckets still? Crit DMG, Vulnerable if we Crit and make enemies vulnerable are multiplicative vs additive? So I want to split those two and take vuln and Crit DMG in roughly the same amounts I'm a barb need halp with maths.
There are two constants with people who made videos. 1. They're edited, so you can't trust what you are seeing 2. People are REALLY bad at math .. and even worse at using words in a medium where you can take your time to edit it to make it look better. Saw a Wudijo video where he went on about tormented boss efficiency / rewards .. and it was very painful to watch. It took him weeks to even mention it in passing that his video was probably wrong. That damage was already done. I get that modern content creators double dip and rip a lot of their youtube videos from their streams ... but there is a serious lack of professionalism and patience when it comes to making informative content. People push out stuff way too quickly, with as little effort as possible, just waving off things like it's "in the moment" and "things can change" like it's an online EULA agreement for a video game. There's no journalistic integrity; I don't think any of these people have even heard of that concept before. It's like we're all still in junior high school telling each other rumors we heard every day about secrets in games, having not verified it or tried it ourselves. Then it follows the phone game ( for us ancient people ) and everyone is sharing this mangled information as if it's gospel.
The tooltip is correct. I think everyone is confused by the wordings used in the tooltip. Both these guys are not wrong, yet not absolutely correct as well in a way Blizzard confused us. There is a difference between CRITICAL DAMAGE, and CRITICAL DAMAGE BONUS, the way it calculates CD is like how Macrobioboi calculates, the way it calculates CDB is how the other youtuber calculates. Totally 2 different things. Critical Damage is like how MBB calculates it, and works as intended (1.5x) as shown by him. Critical Damage BONUS is used normally in legendary paragon nodes, ulitmate skills, or aspects. Like for example, if you look at the Sorc legendary node BURNING INSTINCTS, it's increased burning damage is based off CRITICAL DAMAGE BONUS, that's where we use that number. Same thing goes for VULNERABLE DAMAGE and VULNERABLE DAMAGE BONUS. The word BONUS basically means it is by itself a 1.5 or 1.2 local multiplier, and it is mainly used for legendary nodes, ultimate skills, or aspect calculations.
The Sorc may be bugged, but if you get a 30% crit bonus on Necro, it's a new 1.3 multi. Example: Sacrifice Iron Golem. They're always new multipliers. If you Critically strike, your damage is all a critical strike. You deal 30% bonus damage when you Critically strike means increase all your damage by 30%.
@@MacroBioBoi What if sorc isn't bugged and is how classes should be working though per their new formula and they just got the short end of the stick?
@@MacroBioBoi Thanks for the reply. I assumed the video was right but, I still had to ask. Maybe blizzard will fix their code to accurately represent what they mean but, I'm not holding my breath with how much they are transitioning.
As a Diablo player who failed 6th grade math.. If my crit damage is 4000 percent And my vulnerable damage is 400 percent.. how am I critical striking 2.5 - 10 million but my white ticks are 215 million.
No. That's the fallacy I disprove in this video. Your additive damage isn't multiplied by any effect. It's all in the additive bucket. It's just whether or not you activate it's addition to that bucket.
yes it is, just like overpower damage, you will always be able to stack more of these stats, because they are always multiplied by 1.5 at the end. So 1000% of crit dmg will turn into 1500% crit dmg, same with overpower and vulnerable will be only 1200%. So yes, you are correct, it is superb in terms of that.
Hey, I didn't realize there was any drama between creators before I asked in your chat today for formulas. Apologies if it came off like I was stoking that fire. I was asking about the formulas because I'm having some trouble wrapping my mind around the changes since launch to crit damage and vulnerable. Since I'm math oriented, I figured that the formulas would be the easiest way for me to get an understanding of how the parts all move together. I'll do more digging and see what I can find on my own. I appreciate you doing your best to correct confusion in these calcs.
I just want to play this game without doing any more math than I need to ... can someone just tell me where I should allocate my stat points to do maximum damage?
it depends on your build. But generally try to get as many and as much of any stat with an X in the description. 2 20% multipliers is better than 1 40% multiplier.
I made a rogue and everytime I get a ring or sword that has attack speed lucky hit vulnerable I roll crit damage on it, then I put them all on my barb with just crit damage at first and had nearly 3k crit damage then did less damage then having vulnerable +crit instead of crit+ crit. This game makes no sense just like this comment.
Good Job Macro 😍. I probably trust you more than most since you actually do the testing to check. But I do feel a certain point this game is becoming like work... I am a Scientist by trade, so I ended up doing alot of mathematical stuff in game probably by habit, more than IRL..🥲
@tek512 there was one guy on Reddit who did 500h Pit and if I remember correctly I think he got 6 stygian stones 🙈. I found 2 or 3 in the Pit in the entire span of season 4 so far. Maybe the patch will fix it today ^^.
This is just my opinion, but the math isn't hard at all. It's order of operations, multiplication and addition. Stuff I'm sure we all learned at a young age... All that said, the hard part is figuring out the goddamn formula! The game doesn't do much at all to explain to the player how the different stats and affixes interact with each other, so just like you, I just use guides instead of building my own spreadsheets to calculate changes in dmg and dmg mitigation. It's been half my lifetime since I was in engineering school, but playing this game makes me feel like an idiot sometimes because on the rare occasion I try to calculate if an item is an upgrade or not, I have no idea I'm doing the right calculation. I know the result of my equation is accurate based on the numbers I input, but have no idea if my equation is the correct one.
that guy only plays sorc, and since sorc is bugged and he relies on tooltip, (and I think he only tested the broken sorc vuln damage) he got baited... i cant believe he went so far to say everyone else was wrong, though. Ton of people on reddit/forums still believe this local damage bucket, too, for stuff like devouring blaze. I get downvoted all the time trying to correct people.
@@eagleotto2527 because the class been neglected both in balance and bug fixes. None of the devs play sorc, and if you watch the campfire chats, they are "terrified" (their words) of buffing sorc.
@@nickrobinson5715 I don't know that I'd call it clearing pits just fine. It is lagging behind everybody else. Sorc is basically a burning dumpster being carried out to sea by flood waters.
Crit bonus damage: 50% multiplicative, and then all other crit bonus damage is "additive", going into the "additive pool". This is what I got from having watched your video breaking down how damage is calculated. So the "Diff" should naturally be higher than 1.5, as long as you have additional "additive" crit bonus damage (which you have from the Essence glyph).
Yeah I feel the take away here is crit is only good for 50% no matter how high you have, but that doesn’t seem right. I must have misunderstood something.
@@stevewiley3832 That's correct, there's no point in taking crit damage, they changed this awhile ago when they did the damage rework. Because everyone was focusing on crit/vuln damage too much. So now it's just a flat 50% multiplier if you crit and the damage just gets added to the normal bucket when you crit, so basically now it's just conditional damage.
Solid video Mac, I've been following for a while and when I started I realized something about you quickly. You'd rather be wrong and closer to the truth when you find out than sit on ego. It's a great trait to have and I'm grateful for you continuing to help abolish ignorance about dmg and our class mechs. Stay encouraged!
I don't like the idea to have a dps meter in general but in the training grounds it would be great. Sometimes you just can't tell if it's stronger or weaker when you change something.
Serious question: Why don't the devs literally just publish how they code the calculations for damage? Literally just publish those formulas. Doesn't seem right that we have to do all this lab work to reverse engineer the mechanics.
They dont know themself. Raxxanterax made a vid in S2 where Blizz explained how their numbers work. Watch that Video and you understand EVERYTHING about Blizz and their numbersgame.... ☠️😂
I mean maybe I missed something but when they changed crit dmg to no longer be a multiplier this is exactly how they said it worked. The crit dmg tool tip in the game is just wrong
well, what the formula is then? lets say i have 400% all dmg and 300% crit dmg and i have 30%(x) crit dmg from druid boons and 30%(x) from envenom, my crit chance is lets say 60%, is better stack +100% crit dmg or +100% all dmg, are we sure that our aditive crit dmg bonus is not yet alone multiplied by our %(x) crit multipliers? u havent tested it in the video..
i tested and calculated it - >if i have 500% all dmg and 100% crit dmg, i do like 3x crit dmg with 30% evenom and 30% crit dmg boon, if i add crit dmg stat to 270% i do like 3,6x crit, it doesnt make sense, im increasing my aditive dmg percents in crits by 30% percent and actual dmg in crit is higher only by 20%
I like how you say the flat damage is percent and the percent damage is flat. The example video states "100 damage", yet you say 100%, the character sheet states 50% crit damage, yet you say 50 damage. Very consistent, yes.
I say this often but thank you again for the objectivity Macro! I’m playing your blight build and it’s still my favourite necro playstyle since S2. Edit: been testing your remark on damage scaling with DOT. I’m testing specifically how aspects that describe flat damage gain (25% increased damage with a shield for example). It’s bugged but if it’s there and it works why not use it. I wish the devs could get all classes to perform as intended.
This is all good and all but what about the rumors that some of Sorc's aspects and glyphs aren't working properly, resulting in lower damage than intended? Is it true? Would love you to make a video testing it and showing your conclusion.
The devs said the base vulnerable 20 and the base crit 50 is multiplicative, and the extra vul and crit damage you get would be additive, you should have shown a third set of data afterwards showing your 172 crit damage at work. As now with your video just showing the 50%, it seemingly implies that all the crit damage should be multiplicative, when thats how it used to work, and the devs changed it.
Can you break it down to stupid terms for me. Lets pretend i have 100% crit chance and i am always close. If i had to choose between identical rolls of lets say 100% crit damage, close damage or just damage, so on so forth for any other conditional damage. The output would be the same as long as the condition is met? Other than bugs, of course. Reason I ask is because it's difficult for me to figure out in the game, and i see things like heavy-handed passive on barb (15%x crit damage) or grandfather inflate the crit damage on stat sheet. Then you have things like blood rage, inner calm, or any other effect that states it increases damage by 0x inflates your all damage number on stat sheet. Are these inflated numbers accurate in that adding 100% additive when i am under the effect of something that is a 30%x does indeed add more than the 100%? I hope all that makes sense. I am trying to min max my gear and just really curious about how all the math works. I know the attack power is a bait. Is it just as simple as choose which ever additive roll is the highest as long as i can met that condition or do these multipliers matter when stacking additive damage. Thank you in advance.
Hey thanks for doing the testing and the math. You are really really helping and i just want to let you know i appreciate your work. One question... How do we know that the numbers which show on the screen are the actual damage don't to the enemy?
We don't but there's no reason to believe otherwise. Also it wouldn't effect anything. I see this concept bubbling up and you just have to ask the question "If it's not the real number, but we all are the same wrong number, can I change that?" And you realize it is of no consequence.
It's pretty lame when you can't rely on the character sheets because they're wrong. How the hell can you make an accurate build of your choosing without now watching RUclips videos of players explaining to Blizzard how their own game works!? Pretty ridiculous. I wonder what else is incorrect?
you've proven this over and over. Can't imagine how someone watching your videos would think otherwise. Use builds by trusted creators. Nothing worse than playing a build for so long and reading the comments on the video to find out the creator didn't understand a basic feature in his build.
Its such a MASSIVE FAILING of the ARPG genre that all of them have no intuitive, direct system to gauge how your DPS is doing. All the in-game ways they do it are never correct, and key information is obfuscated or not presented to the player at all, like figuring out which things are multiplicative or additive in damage, which "bucket" they fall into when damage is calculated. The information is there, the game is calculating it after all, they are just so bad at conveying that to the player in a simple, logical way. Can't be understated how stupid and bad it is that most players can't "wing it and do what's fun" and have to follow a build lest they find a wall later on that invalidates their build and gear. RPG's and these systems aren't rocket science. They are just presented in such a bad, vague, unorganized way. Coming from someone who loves POE, it really is such a massive failing all the 3rd party apps and build planners that are REQUIRED to get most people into the game playing.
So ima just throw this out there. My bone spear(on console) does 20k damage base and I have 500% crit damage and only crit for 40k. Now if I sacrifice my golem to give me 30% multiplicative crit damage increase I magically start hitting for around 200k a crit. So something is obviously off. Might be a console bug but blizzard definitely broke something.
*homer simpson* NERRRRRRRDDDDD!!!!! lol kidding man i love math and that your are a serious min max number cruncher is amazing... since jewels hit the original d2 ive never trusted stats and a character sheet unless im physically holding it and rolling dice
@@MacroBioBoi glad I can brighten someone's day 😆 Now that I've returned and recouped. Great video dude, thank you for this! Actually pretty wild how you can crunch numbers like this. Impressive!
I'm always big numbers good level 55 rogue and 22k critical just sounds good me I'm putting everything on critical though maybe it not a good idea because how the game might work in damage
Diablo 4 has the most ridiculous stat system of any game. Nobody knows how their character works lmao. game litterally requires macro boi to explain it because otherwise Nobody would understand diablo 4 at all, because its a very poorly designed game
So they couldn't even display correct critical damage sum in character sheet? I always trusted that number as I thought there's no way they could display a simple addition incorrectly...
Hold on you only address one point of a vid that talks to several other reasons why ppl are building chars wrong which is mostly to with misunderstanding synergy of a particular glyph or aspect with your dmg buckets you choose to focus on, are you suggesting since he is wrong on his crit dmg formula that he is wrong about everything or did you not watch the entire thing? I will check your other vid to see if this is explained
![DDG & G Herbo - Nosey [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/I9Ra0Zc2NlQ/mqdefault.jpg)
The video's creator has since removed their video and put up a new response with an apology. Kudos to them, I've been in a similar situation and it can be rough when something you believed, turned out to be wrong.
props to both of you. if i hadn't already subbed, i'd sub on the basis of the tenor of this exchange.
This is how we find REAL truth, as in any scientific/math discussion. We check, ,check again and always keep our eyes and minds open. Well done guys.
edit: got a sub from me
Kudos for the (mostly) mature approach! Good way to handle a disagreement!
New ARPG players actually believing character sheets, a tale as old as time.
Character sheets should not be in the game if it’s a blatant lie. Blizzard seems to be full of scumbags. Time to drain that swamp.
Like Attack power. It just takes into consideration what's permanent and say in the tooltip it doesn't include all the situational stuff like lots of glyphs. And explicitly tell people it's just a very crude way of showing the real power.
i couldn't understand why all this stuff was going wrong for me even in D3 until i realized, oooohhh, the character sheet is bullsh*t! it didn't make me a good player, but i got a LOT more successful in the game.
This video reminds me of something that was said during a Lean Six Sigma Green Belt class I was taking. "In God we trust, everyone else, bring your data". And that's what you do, you bring the data so you can show your work. It's awesome and I appreciate it. Keep up the good work.
Saw this guys video by chance and I thought no way was his calculations correct. Thanks for making it clear
I spent far too long staring at Formula 2 trying to understand what thought process created that math.
I'm pretty new to Diablo, only first started playing when it came to gamepass and I've not played a Diablo before this. I don't know the shortest way to explain the question(s) I currently have that puzzle me the most but I will try my best and apologies in advance for a very large comment lol. The thing that has plagued me the most currently is a combination of 2 things. Those being attack power and damage numbers (mainly which is better out of outright "+damage" vs "+damage to close) but in general I'm seeking clarification and this video so far is the only one that helped even remotely. I see the discourse that it's hard to trust what you see in game etc etc, but I'm currently playing Barb and I'm in the 70s level wise, specifically the bash/cleave build and to start my actual line of questioning.....say for example you temper a weapon, and you obviously can get either raw damage added or damage to close and the range for damage to close is much higher, yet damage to close doesn't show my attack power go up or my bash skill numbers when I inspect my character, and raw damage makes both go up. Does that mean damage vs close is useless? Is the game's coding for things just weird and bad that way? Which one is better? Etc, etc...heavily appreciate anyone who took the time to read and/or respond to this and sorry again for wall-o-text
Attack power is not real and doesn't actually relate to any damage calculation in the game. You can completely ignore it and shouldnt use it to measure if a build is stronger.
All additive damage is equally valuable, you just need to determine which you can apply the most often and get the highest number of that. If you have 50% chance to crit you basically only get 50% of +crit damage on gear. Etc etc.
@@MacroBioBoi very good to know, thank you for reading and replying! It's been a little confusing and frustrating as I get further toward the end game and trying to really figure out what is good or at least how to optimize etc
This is one of the stranger way on how they add/multiplicate critical damage multiplier.
The base x50% damage is flat damage additive value whose value depends on your base damage (combination of all your damage both additive and multiplicative) which basically means your inherent critical damage multipliiier = base damage x 1.5, easily understandable. There are lotf of games which use inherent critical damage multiplier and usually at 50% but any other additional critical damage multiplier bonus are added directly from 50%, say I have 80% additional critical damage that would means 50+80= 130% critical damage multiplier.
What I do not understand is when you have additional critical damage multiplier instead of adding that to the base 50%, it is multiplied with 1.5 and then the base 50% is added. For example say I have 80% additional critical damage modifier from other sources, seemingly my total critical damage multiplier should be 50+80 = 130% but instead its (80x1.5)+50= 120+50, = 170%.
Where did the 1.5 multiplier comes from? Why did they add that extra multiplier? Is it to buff damage? Is the tooltip wrong? I guess only the developer could answer.
Probably too late for you to read a comment but anyway. Sorcs are still seeing weirdness with vuln multipliers like Frigid Fate legendary node and Storm Swell aspect. Both of these indicate a 30%[x] but dummy testing shows they are closer to half that or 15%[x]. Pezradar at Blizzard said the team tested and everything is working as intended but testing shows it clearly is not. Lurkin has been trying to explain to the community but no one has solved what is going on. Do you have any thoughts?
My understanding is northwar has also tested things and found bugs. I'm not a sorc player though.
great video, but might be even better to show with/without using the Essence, and see how much improvement given your base damage is much higher than the crit damage. anyway, subscribed
As someone, who has no immediate interest in getting a Ph.D in D4 theory crafting, could someone please provide a list of 'known knowledgeable' creators or channels, who are generally considered able to create workable and optimized builds for the various classes, please?
I subscribed to the like button, as requested.
I had 530 vuln dmg ,as well as damagee % on every item possible and 47% crit on my sorc,and my Ice Shards were doing 40 k crits.
then your base damage sucks and/or lacking other multipliers
I was always calculating crit as
550% Crit Damage
(BaseDamage + (BaseDamage * (CritDamage - 50)/100))) * 1.5
(100 + (100 * 5)) * 1.5
CritDamage could be the additive damage bucket, this example is just for crit only though
So 100 base damage with 550% crit = 900 Damage
but kinda makes sense that you naturally get 50% crit, so all the crit damage you get is just additive on top so it turns into:
(BaseDamage + (BaseDamage * (CritDamage/100))) * 1.5
(100 + (100*5.5))*1.5 = 925 damage
You made this shit way too complicated brother.
Say 100 base damage. Normal hit = 100 damage.
Base crit damage (as in 0 added crit damage from gear 0 paragon) = a 50% damage boost. This means the default effect of a critical strike is 150% damage.
100 base damage with no crit = 100 * 150% = 100 * (150/100) = 150 damage.
If you had 550% ADDED crit damage, your TOTAL crit damage would be 550 (added amount) + 50(base "default" amount) = 600%. So your damage would be:
100 * 600% = 100* (600/100) = 600.
I honestly find it funny that anyone would think crit damage would work other than how you've described it. Crit damage is like... always applied as a final multiplier in every single game with crit damage scaling. Maybe I've played too many RPGs/gachas but this is so intuitive to me I'm shocked that anyone would expect otherwise.
i don't know man. sometimes i feel like the different damage pools in d4 aren't multiplicative with each other like they are in poe
The OP addresses specifically a couple of Sorc aspects and Sorc Paragon legend nodes, which seem to be worded as a multiplicative damage boost, when apparently they only multiply with a specific additive dmg stat. Im sure they actually tested it and not only looked at the char sheet. But yeah I would not be surprised in the slightest if Blizz put powers in the game calling them "do [x] damage" when in reality its totally not that.
Im still confused, what would be a better for gear, +90% flat damage or +90%crit damage
If you have 100% chance to crit, they're the same thing.
I must actually admit that both of the builds Ive used from maxroll were politely said 'not of the best quality'. Im speaking of your pure golem necro with kallans aspect and dual swing dust devil from maxroll website. Once I respeced into build from one of the main german streamer it was night and day difference! I really wish your platform well, as Ive been using maxroll for years, but im being well more careful when it comes to your builds. All the best regardless!
I really wish the devs would get their shit in line and make the items on the character screen actually make logical sense. Problem exists for D3 as well but D3 has far less "buckets" in it's game.
There is 1 bucket in D4
I still have no idea how to stack or prioritize affixes, I appreciate your hard work though after watching all three vids on damage calculation. I wish there was a summary at the end to say.. so after the moderate mind number match class :) .. but very detailed and I am sure accurate, after all this.. would be nice to see something more like you need to do X thing.. Example here.. of gear with bad balance or use of multipliers ..result is or here is example of good gear with right multipliers and what it looks like in the game not just in a google sheet .. aim for something like this.
So is Storm Swell aspect bugged or not, been such a roller-coaster of emotions this season as a sorc that is only barely paying attention.
Critting is a 1.5 modifier but does the incorrectly modified tooltip damage actually add that inflated number?
Nope.
I need to rewatch the damage video, I still get lost in the plus 50 equals 5.5 which is 10% etc etc.
I was literally just thinking about, what if I go with zero crit strike chance and damage and focus on other damages.
I haven’t believed Blizzard character sheets since vanilla WoW.
I haven't really kept up with D4 between preseason and season 4, but didn't they announce that they were gonna change the mechanics of crit / vuln to not be (fully) multiplicative?
Yep, seasons ago. The current model is what I show here.
I love judging a books by their cover and that name of that channel says everything i need to know about how trustworthy it is
To be honest , I think that the elixer in the game totally fucks over a few classes, where necro can one shot all ( its the elixer) and sorc its like tickling
Your info on the damage calculations made me drop Crit dmg, and opt in for more Vuln damage for my Puncture build.
But stlll use Crit Chance a source of extra damage, due to the x0.5 global multiplier. It's quite nice.
I do have a question, so when getting additional sources of Crit Damage multiplier. Such as say the Rogue's Deadly Ambush legendary node which is x0.22 Crit Dmg to enemies affected by trap skills, does this mean a crit would now multiply by (Base x 0.72) would it be (Base x 0.50) x 0.22) Or would it be (Base x 0.50) + (additive Crit DMG x 0.22)?
I assume it's the first one, that it being the same multiplier means it just stacks that.
It's a new multiplier entirely unless otherwise stated.
This is like Scott Steiner Math lol
Coming from PoE, last epoch and 30 years of rpgs, none of these formulas for crit make any sense.
FYI +50% base crit damage = ( 1+0.5 = 1.5 as decimal). stat bonus +81.3% crit damage is (1+0.813 = 1.813). then they have gone 1.5(base) x 1.813(increase) = 2.7195. now in reverse .... 2.7195 - 1 = 1.7195 express that value as % - 171.9% (displayed number only to 1 decimal place but no rounding) so its actually multiplicative not additive. At least in the tool tip. hope this helps some one
ps. watched video without sound. sorry if you mentioned this but in the video your maths looked weird.
Just as Batman protects Gotham City from its foes, MacroBioBoi safeguards the Diablo 4 community from the insidious threats lurking within their own kin.
adding a dps meter ingame will solve all
So if they're global multipliers does that mean I should not try to e.g. raise my crit dmg from 500 to 550 but rather increase my vulnerable dmg from 0 to 50 assuming all enemies are vulnerable? So generally do not put all your eggs in one basket?
Nope. Put every egg into the basket you apply the most often.
They capped crit damage to 50% as a multiplier and anything above that is just additive, is that correct? Or have I been mislead
If you crit, you deal 50% bonus damage AND all of your additive crit goes into your additive bucket
@@MacroBioBoithank you, I’ll sub for that answer
Wait... So we have buckets still? Crit DMG, Vulnerable if we Crit and make enemies vulnerable are multiplicative vs additive?
So I want to split those two and take vuln and Crit DMG in roughly the same amounts
I'm a barb need halp with maths.
No buckets! Just additive damage. If you crit, put your crit additive in the ONE bucket.
There are two constants with people who made videos.
1. They're edited, so you can't trust what you are seeing
2. People are REALLY bad at math .. and even worse at using words in a medium where you can take your time to edit it to make it look better.
Saw a Wudijo video where he went on about tormented boss efficiency / rewards .. and it was very painful to watch. It took him weeks to even mention it in passing that his video was probably wrong. That damage was already done.
I get that modern content creators double dip and rip a lot of their youtube videos from their streams ... but there is a serious lack of professionalism and patience when it comes to making informative content. People push out stuff way too quickly, with as little effort as possible, just waving off things like it's "in the moment" and "things can change" like it's an online EULA agreement for a video game. There's no journalistic integrity; I don't think any of these people have even heard of that concept before.
It's like we're all still in junior high school telling each other rumors we heard every day about secrets in games, having not verified it or tried it ourselves.
Then it follows the phone game ( for us ancient people ) and everyone is sharing this mangled information as if it's gospel.
Amazing breakdown, thank you!
The tooltip is correct.
I think everyone is confused by the wordings used in the tooltip. Both these guys are not wrong, yet not absolutely correct as well in a way Blizzard confused us. There is a difference between CRITICAL DAMAGE, and CRITICAL DAMAGE BONUS, the way it calculates CD is like how Macrobioboi calculates, the way it calculates CDB is how the other youtuber calculates. Totally 2 different things.
Critical Damage is like how MBB calculates it, and works as intended (1.5x) as shown by him. Critical Damage BONUS is used normally in legendary paragon nodes, ulitmate skills, or aspects.
Like for example, if you look at the Sorc legendary node BURNING INSTINCTS, it's increased burning damage is based off CRITICAL DAMAGE BONUS, that's where we use that number. Same thing goes for VULNERABLE DAMAGE and VULNERABLE DAMAGE BONUS. The word BONUS basically means it is by itself a 1.5 or 1.2 local multiplier, and it is mainly used for legendary nodes, ultimate skills, or aspect calculations.
The Sorc may be bugged, but if you get a 30% crit bonus on Necro, it's a new 1.3 multi. Example: Sacrifice Iron Golem. They're always new multipliers. If you Critically strike, your damage is all a critical strike. You deal 30% bonus damage when you Critically strike means increase all your damage by 30%.
@@MacroBioBoi What if sorc isn't bugged and is how classes should be working though per their new formula and they just got the short end of the stick?
@@sethwood1676 It's not in the way this question asks. A sorc with plain damage that crits will work the way I describe in this video.
@@MacroBioBoi Thanks for the reply. I assumed the video was right but, I still had to ask. Maybe blizzard will fix their code to accurately represent what they mean but, I'm not holding my breath with how much they are transitioning.
Does this mean you have to change your Maxroll Bone Spirit build?
Not at all.
This information is public. Blizzard has stated crit dmg add 1.5 multiplicative, all besides that is additive. Vuln adds 1.2 multiplicative.
As a Diablo player who failed 6th grade math..
If my crit damage is 4000 percent
And my vulnerable damage is 400 percent.. how am I critical striking 2.5 - 10 million but my white ticks are 215 million.
Because you have a DoT build?
So what’s better on a weapon crit damage or flat damage?
Depends on your build. But it's not flat damage, it's generic damage.
I still think %damage is overall better for basic attack builds
LoL I can believe that blizzard doesn't know what's going on with every aspect of the game.
Already subscribed, but liked and commented just because your math be math’n and I appreciate the effort you put into it
Does that mean that crit damage additive on gear stats is superb to other additive damage stats cause it is multiplied by 1.5?
No. That's the fallacy I disprove in this video. Your additive damage isn't multiplied by any effect. It's all in the additive bucket. It's just whether or not you activate it's addition to that bucket.
yes it is, just like overpower damage, you will always be able to stack more of these stats, because they are always multiplied by 1.5 at the end. So 1000% of crit dmg will turn into 1500% crit dmg, same with overpower and vulnerable will be only 1200%. So yes, you are correct, it is superb in terms of that.
@@ponaskompetencija read previous post. It's false. All your damage will multiply by 1.5 after crit. Not only crit additive.
@@Vitalik578 the previous post is false and what you are saying is absolute nonsense
@@Vitalik578 Also, 50% increase on crit or 1.5 how you call it, only happens when you have absolutely no crit damage on your gear
Hey, I didn't realize there was any drama between creators before I asked in your chat today for formulas. Apologies if it came off like I was stoking that fire. I was asking about the formulas because I'm having some trouble wrapping my mind around the changes since launch to crit damage and vulnerable. Since I'm math oriented, I figured that the formulas would be the easiest way for me to get an understanding of how the parts all move together. I'll do more digging and see what I can find on my own. I appreciate you doing your best to correct confusion in these calcs.
It's time to have an honest conversation about ASMR - Highly sensitive triggers with minuscule movement
i like, so i sub, and thank you for all the math!
Buglo 4
The guy was asked in comments that if he tested his theory, he said no😅
I just want to play this game without doing any more math than I need to ... can someone just tell me where I should allocate my stat points to do maximum damage?
it depends on your build. But generally try to get as many and as much of any stat with an X in the description. 2 20% multipliers is better than 1 40% multiplier.
I made a rogue and everytime I get a ring or sword that has attack speed lucky hit vulnerable I roll crit damage on it, then I put them all on my barb with just crit damage at first and had nearly 3k crit damage then did less damage then having vulnerable +crit instead of crit+ crit. This game makes no sense just like this comment.
you had me at hello
I think he's being misunderstood, it's obvious there's a big difference in crits without +crit dam gear.
Who is the other guy?
AI just makes up how much health a mob has.
No it doesn't? What does that even mean xD
Oouuu we got some Diablo beef 🥴🫨
Good Job Macro 😍. I probably trust you more than most since you actually do the testing to check. But I do feel a certain point this game is becoming like work... I am a Scientist by trade, so I ended up doing alot of mathematical stuff in game probably by habit, more than IRL..🥲
Pretty sure I'd rather somebody crack the code for how to get stygian stones to fucking drop.
hard agree
Last time I found a stone was when I cleared Pit 66 during sundown in exactly 6:66min 🤔
@@flowqi212 Last time I found one was from Iron Wolves rep. >_>
@tek512 there was one guy on Reddit who did 500h Pit and if I remember correctly I think he got 6 stygian stones 🙈.
I found 2 or 3 in the Pit in the entire span of season 4 so far. Maybe the patch will fix it today ^^.
@@flowqi212 how do you get 66 seconds? Wouldn't that just be 7.06min?
Thanks for the hard math, now my dumb ass is going to go and hold the A button to go brrrrrrrrrrrr 😎😂
Core skills goes BRRRR
This is just my opinion, but the math isn't hard at all. It's order of operations, multiplication and addition. Stuff I'm sure we all learned at a young age...
All that said, the hard part is figuring out the goddamn formula! The game doesn't do much at all to explain to the player how the different stats and affixes interact with each other, so just like you, I just use guides instead of building my own spreadsheets to calculate changes in dmg and dmg mitigation.
It's been half my lifetime since I was in engineering school, but playing this game makes me feel like an idiot sometimes because on the rare occasion I try to calculate if an item is an upgrade or not, I have no idea I'm doing the right calculation. I know the result of my equation is accurate based on the numbers I input, but have no idea if my equation is the correct one.
this is what the abject abyssal misery that is trying to play a sorc this season does to a mfer
that guy only plays sorc, and since sorc is bugged and he relies on tooltip, (and I think he only tested the broken sorc vuln damage) he got baited... i cant believe he went so far to say everyone else was wrong, though. Ton of people on reddit/forums still believe this local damage bucket, too, for stuff like devouring blaze. I get downvoted all the time trying to correct people.
Why is vulnerable damage broken just for sorcs, that's what's confusing to me
@@eagleotto2527 because the class been neglected both in balance and bug fixes. None of the devs play sorc, and if you watch the campfire chats, they are "terrified" (their words) of buffing sorc.
@@esvbanARPGs sorc has no vulnerable damage and yet clears pit just fine. I'd be scared too
@@nickrobinson5715 clears 20 tiers lower and takes twice as long than everyone else is fine, sure.
@@nickrobinson5715 I don't know that I'd call it clearing pits just fine. It is lagging behind everybody else. Sorc is basically a burning dumpster being carried out to sea by flood waters.
“Caus everything in this game is bugged” 💀
I'm glad you covered and clarified this, AND that you were not sarcastic. I think that guy was sincere in making a PSA, however, it was incorrect.
Crit bonus damage: 50% multiplicative, and then all other crit bonus damage is "additive", going into the "additive pool". This is what I got from having watched your video breaking down how damage is calculated. So the "Diff" should naturally be higher than 1.5, as long as you have additional "additive" crit bonus damage (which you have from the Essence glyph).
Right, he should have shown the numbers with some bonus critical damage to prove the point.
Yeah I feel the take away here is crit is only good for 50% no matter how high you have, but that doesn’t seem right. I must have misunderstood something.
@@stevewiley3832 That's correct, there's no point in taking crit damage, they changed this awhile ago when they did the damage rework. Because everyone was focusing on crit/vuln damage too much. So now it's just a flat 50% multiplier if you crit and the damage just gets added to the normal bucket when you crit, so basically now it's just conditional damage.
Solid video Mac, I've been following for a while and when I started I realized something about you quickly. You'd rather be wrong and closer to the truth when you find out than sit on ego. It's a great trait to have and I'm grateful for you continuing to help abolish ignorance about dmg and our class mechs. Stay encouraged!
I picked a weird day to come back to D4
XD welcome back Snow!
Blizzard is to blame, wrong character sheets & no dps meter...
and no damage log - so we could identify how damage works and can find bugs easily (or Blizzard can)
OK but we see, if we had DPS meters people would just copy the best builds instead of doing what they do now - copy the best builds .
/s
I don't like the idea to have a dps meter in general but in the training grounds it would be great. Sometimes you just can't tell if it's stronger or weaker when you change something.
Serious question: Why don't the devs literally just publish how they code the calculations for damage? Literally just publish those formulas. Doesn't seem right that we have to do all this lab work to reverse engineer the mechanics.
They dont know themself. Raxxanterax made a vid in S2 where Blizz explained how their numbers work. Watch that Video and you understand EVERYTHING about Blizz and their numbersgame.... ☠️😂
Dude, it's Microsoft, really you questioning this?
@@alopradocaismh Microsoft isnt the games developer...
I mean maybe I missed something but when they changed crit dmg to no longer be a multiplier this is exactly how they said it worked. The crit dmg tool tip in the game is just wrong
well, what the formula is then? lets say i have 400% all dmg and 300% crit dmg and i have 30%(x) crit dmg from druid boons and 30%(x) from envenom, my crit chance is lets say 60%, is better stack +100% crit dmg or +100% all dmg,
are we sure that our aditive crit dmg bonus is not yet alone multiplied by our %(x) crit multipliers? u havent tested it in the video..
i tested and calculated it - >if i have 500% all dmg and 100% crit dmg, i do like 3x crit dmg with 30% evenom and 30% crit dmg boon, if i add crit dmg stat to 270% i do like 3,6x crit, it doesnt make sense, im increasing my aditive dmg percents in crits by 30% percent and actual dmg in crit is higher only by 20%
I like how you say the flat damage is percent and the percent damage is flat. The example video states "100 damage", yet you say 100%, the character sheet states 50% crit damage, yet you say 50 damage. Very consistent, yes.
I say this often but thank you again for the objectivity Macro! I’m playing your blight build and it’s still my favourite necro playstyle since S2.
Edit: been testing your remark on damage scaling with DOT. I’m testing specifically how aspects that describe flat damage gain (25% increased damage with a shield for example). It’s bugged but if it’s there and it works why not use it. I wish the devs could get all classes to perform as intended.
This is all good and all but what about the rumors that some of Sorc's aspects and glyphs aren't working properly, resulting in lower damage than intended? Is it true? Would love you to make a video testing it and showing your conclusion.
How many words can a person utter without saying anything?
The devs said the base vulnerable 20 and the base crit 50 is multiplicative, and the extra vul and crit damage you get would be additive, you should have shown a third set of data afterwards showing your 172 crit damage at work. As now with your video just showing the 50%, it seemingly implies that all the crit damage should be multiplicative, when thats how it used to work, and the devs changed it.
Can you break it down to stupid terms for me. Lets pretend i have 100% crit chance and i am always close.
If i had to choose between identical rolls of lets say 100% crit damage, close damage or just damage, so on so forth for any other conditional damage. The output would be the same as long as the condition is met? Other than bugs, of course.
Reason I ask is because it's difficult for me to figure out in the game, and i see things like heavy-handed passive on barb (15%x crit damage) or grandfather inflate the crit damage on stat sheet. Then you have things like blood rage, inner calm, or any other effect that states it increases damage by 0x inflates your all damage number on stat sheet.
Are these inflated numbers accurate in that adding 100% additive when i am under the effect of something that is a 30%x does indeed add more than the 100%?
I hope all that makes sense. I am trying to min max my gear and just really curious about how all the math works. I know the attack power is a bait. Is it just as simple as choose which ever additive roll is the highest as long as i can met that condition or do these multipliers matter when stacking additive damage.
Thank you in advance.
Yes, if you have 100% uptime of the mechanic in question, you get 100% of the damage it offers, so you should always pick the biggest number.
Hey thanks for doing the testing and the math. You are really really helping and i just want to let you know i appreciate your work.
One question... How do we know that the numbers which show on the screen are the actual damage don't to the enemy?
We don't but there's no reason to believe otherwise. Also it wouldn't effect anything. I see this concept bubbling up and you just have to ask the question "If it's not the real number, but we all are the same wrong number, can I change that?" And you realize it is of no consequence.
Always keeping it real by bringing the data. Thanks!
you, Sir, have indeed deserved my following. I love maths almost as much as I love collected data to scientifically support claims.
Thank god you made this video, I'm so frustrated that people just keep spewing this nonsense without actually testing it.
It's pretty lame when you can't rely on the character sheets because they're wrong. How the hell can you make an accurate build of your choosing without now watching RUclips videos of players explaining to Blizzard how their own game works!? Pretty ridiculous. I wonder what else is incorrect?
Yes. Subscribed, and liked video. I actually watched the video before it was taken down. Mind blown. Great work my man.
If the earth is round then how come critical strike damage is like this?
XD
Thanks for clearing up this confusion. I am looking forward to your videos about the Aphotic and DoT damage bugs!
A dps meter in game would solve all this. Maybe season 5
you've proven this over and over. Can't imagine how someone watching your videos would think otherwise. Use builds by trusted creators. Nothing worse than playing a build for so long and reading the comments on the video to find out the creator didn't understand a basic feature in his build.
Its such a MASSIVE FAILING of the ARPG genre that all of them have no intuitive, direct system to gauge how your DPS is doing. All the in-game ways they do it are never correct, and key information is obfuscated or not presented to the player at all, like figuring out which things are multiplicative or additive in damage, which "bucket" they fall into when damage is calculated.
The information is there, the game is calculating it after all, they are just so bad at conveying that to the player in a simple, logical way. Can't be understated how stupid and bad it is that most players can't "wing it and do what's fun" and have to follow a build lest they find a wall later on that invalidates their build and gear.
RPG's and these systems aren't rocket science. They are just presented in such a bad, vague, unorganized way. Coming from someone who loves POE, it really is such a massive failing all the 3rd party apps and build planners that are REQUIRED to get most people into the game playing.
So ima just throw this out there. My bone spear(on console) does 20k damage base and I have 500% crit damage and only crit for 40k. Now if I sacrifice my golem to give me 30% multiplicative crit damage increase I magically start hitting for around 200k a crit. So something is obviously off. Might be a console bug but blizzard definitely broke something.
This changes absolutely nothing, totally pointless.
*homer simpson* NERRRRRRRDDDDD!!!!! lol kidding man i love math and that your are a serious min max number cruncher is amazing... since jewels hit the original d2 ive never trusted stats and a character sheet unless im physically holding it and rolling dice
Way to baked for this ATM. Be back later
😂
Soon you soon! Edit: imma leave that there, that's hilarious.
@@MacroBioBoi Seems someone else is also baked XD
@@MacroBioBoi perfection
haha same 🍁
@@MacroBioBoi glad I can brighten someone's day 😆
Now that I've returned and recouped.
Great video dude, thank you for this!
Actually pretty wild how you can crunch numbers like this. Impressive!
Damnit Mac... i am already subscribed... Theres no more subscribe buttons!
I'm always big numbers good level 55 rogue and 22k critical just sounds good me I'm putting everything on critical though maybe it not a good idea because how the game might work in damage
Diablo 4 has the most ridiculous stat system of any game. Nobody knows how their character works lmao. game litterally requires macro boi to explain it because otherwise Nobody would understand diablo 4 at all, because its a very poorly designed game
So they couldn't even display correct critical damage sum in character sheet? I always trusted that number as I thought there's no way they could display a simple addition incorrectly...
Hold on you only address one point of a vid that talks to several other reasons why ppl are building chars wrong which is mostly to with misunderstanding synergy of a particular glyph or aspect with your dmg buckets you choose to focus on, are you suggesting since he is wrong on his crit dmg formula that he is wrong about everything or did you not watch the entire thing? I will check your other vid to see if this is explained
thank you for clarifying this, saw that other guys video and was kinda bummed out lol
Earlier I had my Frozen Orbs Sorc build running 763.5% critical damage. Is that good? Lol 😅