How I Identify and Correct A Razor's Geometry Problem 1 of 2
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- Опубликовано: 13 сен 2024
- This is how I've been doing it for the past 2-3 years. Some may deem this controversial. If you consider hone wear to be the devil, this video is not for you.
I fully understand why you would want to correct the warped spine so you could hone the razor and have an even bevel, but the fatal mistake you made, by taking the warp out of the spine you have effectively altered the bevel geometry which is around 18 degrees 9 either side with a combined 18 at the apex, so once you removed the warp which allowed you to set an even bevel, then you should have definitely taped the spine.
J. Mahoney - I like your thinking there J., but fatal mistake? I think not! The sweet spot is actually 16° give or take a couple of degrees . This particular razor was just over 17° before the correction and just under 17 after.
But let’s take a hypothetical case where making the correction on the spine did put enough wear on it to take the bevel angle out of the proper range. The simple fix there would be to then use tape to bring the bevel angle back up for finishing. You will be MUCH better off with a squared off geometrical bevel and use tape than a twisted razor that you didn’t use tape on yet your angle is in range.
@@drmatt357 Actually it can be between 16 and 18 either of those numbers will give you a correct usable bevel, there's nothing out there to say 16 is the sweet spot, that's a fact use a bevel box and measure a few vintage razors you will soon find I'm correct, as long as your spine will give you a 4 to 1 or 3.7 to 1 ratio then it will automatically find the correct bevel, unless you have actually measured the spine thickness after you have removed all that metal on the diamond plate, you will only be guessing, give me the spine thickness and blade with of that razor you just honed, and I will tell you the bevel angle on that razor.
@@j.mahoney1178 I did say 16 degrees is the sweet spot, "give or take a couple of degrees". That means 14-18 would work. 16 is where I like it as I feel its the most comfortable but it's not just me. I spoke with GS6 and he said him and Lynn surveyed guys and tested razors and they came up with 16 as best also.
The 4:1 ratio is a fallacy as it yields a 14.4 degree bevel angle. Works but a bit steep. Even down to your 3.7:1 is only 15.5 degrees. Closer but since you like 18 degrees, that's a 3.2:1 ratio.
The razor in this video when started had a width of 6/8 or .750" and a spine thickness or .228". After finishing, the spine thickness was .219" with the same width. You can run those numbers but you'll see that after removing "all that metal" it changed the bevel angle equal or less than the tape that you're so fond of using.
I have measured lots of vintage razors and many of them are way off, especially the heavy grind Sheffields. Bevel angles well over 20 degrees which gives the edge a sluggish feel.
I know you like to be right but it seems in this case... 😁😘
@@drmatt357 everyone including yourself is entitled to have an opinion be it right or wrong, I will keep on honing razors my way for many hundreds of happy paying customers, including their endorsement over many years, lets hope your paying clientel are just as happy as mine, or maybe not.
J. Mahoney - Fair enough. Thanks for stopping by and Merry Christmas. 😁🎄🎁👍🏻
Hey DrMatt, I live in Hagen near Solingen, Germany where since 1847 the Melchior Family grinds Blades for large German Knife and Razor manufacturers... Its the European epicenter of Knife and Blade-making. Spoke to the only of Mr. Melchior Sr. and he told me that the Design of the German Straight-Razor-spine changed quite a lot from curved to straight over the past century; exactly because of shaping-geometry for the user... to get rid of micro-curvature in the edge... also taking the "wabble"-test on their blades. I see no difference in their philosophy and yours - So, you hit this right on the Button!!! Keep it up!
This makes all the sense in the world!! I'm a cabinetmaker using cutting irons all day. The FIRST thing you need to do BEFORE you use the iron, is to FLATTEN & POLISH the back of the iron. It'll never cut properly or be truly sharp if you don't!! This goes for new or vintage. This is the exact same principle.
I got a fantastic hamburg ring made by some company called B&S solingen. Beautiful heavy 6/8 with jimps and bone handle. It practically had no hone wear on it. Suspect it was NOS?
Then I did this wobble test and man ! It's edge wobbled so bad such that applying a sharpie on both sides and a few strokes on the diamond plate showed zero contact about 1/3 of the toe on one side and 1/3 heel on the other side. A complete S like the blue edge on this video. Followed the steps here and revived it back to life. It's turned out to be a lovely edge ! Thank you Dr Matt for these generous knowledge shares.
Glad to hear you could make good use of the content Manish. Cheers!!
Correcting the geometry is always a better solution to the problem, thanks for sharing your Technic! :)
your name sounds like some weird porno film
😂
@@captainobvious4318 xD
I just received my Filarmonica 14 that Dr. Matt did the correction on and honed up with a killer coticule Edge. The difference is night and day! The corrected blade shaves like a dream, I highly recommend that any wobbly Fili gets the correction to fully enjoy these wonderful blades! Imho...
Love the video thanks so much!! I’ve learned SO much from your razor series and by far my favorite straight razor content out there. Thanks Dr. Matt!!
Re: I think the most important question when it comes to “should I put wear marks on this or not” is simply “is it an effective TOOL” then who literally gives a shit what you gotta do to make it effective again (at least that’s how I see it, and not just razors, tools are *tools* …!!) now if we’re talking collecting items or if it’s art or museum etc, then obviously it’s never going to be used as a tool except a tool of “history” so of course no modification or even sharpening needed for that.
The fact is, razors are a cutting tool, it is designed to be maintained and remove steel to improve performance, literally what it is lol.. people, you gotta remove material to sharpen, no?
7 years later still educating. Thanks for the video!
Thank you! I just watched this series again. There is some gold here. Sometimes I even impress myself!😉
Brilliantly logical and well done! Thanks for posting your video. It seems to me another possible variable for others to consider (assuming poor quality control when the razor was made) is variance in thickness of the spine from end-to-end (however, I have not taken the micrometer to the spines of new or old razors). As far as I understand, the thickness of the spine serves to set the correct angle for that depth (or width whichever the correct term is) of the blade and, serves as a sharpening guide so that you keep the angle constant so as to not keep messing up the edge - not rocket science for sure. That's why there are sharpening guides for knives, chisels etc., to keep a consistent angle so as to prevent continually messing up the edge! If someone can roll their wrist, hand, or whatever and keep a consistent angle on the edge of a blade that may have a bend and/or a twist/warp, then they must possess phenonemal skill! Good for them! Like other's have said, if it's for show only, good, if you want to actually use it, then the Dr.'s method makes perfect sense.
Melvin Gibson - Thanks Melvin and you’re exactly right. I’m taking a break now from filming a video on bevel angle which utilizes spine thickness and blade width.
Ignore the haters, lol! A warped razor is a useless tool, and needs to be fixed, vintage or new. I really appreciate you sharing your knowledge and experience.
Realize this is an old vid, but I want to thank you for making it. It's helped me alot. I'm broke and got into honing and shaving with SR's. I threw a Union stone away because I couldn't fix it, but I just fixed a gold Dollar that I honestly didn't think could be turned into something usable. Love your videos, try to watch a couple every evening. I'm about to put a Dovo prima(my jewel I just got, new off eBay for $60) to my green brick. Thanks so much.
Thanks for sharing. This makes total sense. I build models as an advanced, obsessive hobby. I build on glass, as you always adjust the model to "flat" if it's let's say, a military truck. Once your foundation is flat, everything else builds easier. Yes, there's an initial takedown of metal, but once in a stable state, as the Japanese would teach, now we can make small adjustments to reach for perfection. Well done Dr. Matt.
You are absolutely right Matt (in my opinion). Once you experience a great shaving edge, it's hard to settle for anything less. Every one of my best shaving razors are all straight. The razors in my collection that "don't" shave well, have slight geometric issues. I'm not a professional honemeister and don't have the experience to make a defective razor into great shaver simply by knowing how to tweak the razor as you're honing it. I want too be able to get a great shave with all of my straights. So thanks for your video. Keep up the good work!
TJ Mati Thanks TJ. Glad I was able to help. 😁
You are Correct Sir, Geometry is Fundamental in these Types of Applications.
Definitely works I just don't have the heart to do it on some of my vintage razors. I look through thousands on eBay to find the right one at the right price, I sand from 240-3000 and buff it out, unpin and clean up the scales, put it all back together, just don't have the heart to do this. My daily shaver is a Wade 1/2 hollow that has about an 1/8th of an inch towards the heel that's warped. It's a 2 7/8ths long blade, I just use 2 6/8ths of it! Great video.
Thanks Jeff! If the razor works fine, leave it alone. FWIW, these are my most controversial videos that some have tried to get me removed from YT for. 😆
It makes so much sense. People get stuck and you have to hit them with a two x four in order to learn new ideas
Thanks man. that's going to be very helpful for the razor I just bought cheaply on ebay to practice sharpening: It rocks quite a bit when put on a flat surface and the two sides behave differently. I was already worried about not getting any use out of it.
Great information! The spine wear didn’t bother me, but looking at that rusty old diamond plate sure did!!!!! 😂😂
Thanks Andrew. Not rust. The steel does have an alloy component and I think it may be copper. Acid bath will clean it but it could destroy the plate so I leave it.
drmatt357 I was just fooling around- and here I go learning something from you. Yet again!
Cheers Matt!
To use a George W Bush term you have "math uh meh tized " the crap out of wet shaving. I have shaved with a straight razor for many years and used an old slip stone to get my edges but since I have been watching your videos I have found that I can get a much better shave just by using a fraction of the information you have provided on here. I am fascinated with your questions and conclusions as well as the thought process you have taken to this subject. I just want to say thank you very much for these videos. By the way I just ordered some of that A and E Monte Carlo soap and lotion.
Thank you James for the nice words and sub. The A&E soaps are the best!
@@drmatt357 You are so welcome. I can't wait to try the goat milk soap.
I love watching this series. Looking through it again; lots of good stuff.
But I don't know if I've ever replied to it.
I don't like hone wear. I have done some spine work on razors that need it, and was never happy with the aesthetic results; looks absolutely horrible.
If the geometry issues are small enough, I will do almost anything to avoid hone wear. But.....there are blades out there you can jump through as many hoops as you want, they absolutely need that hone wear put on them. They need those issues straightened out, or they will suck, no matter what you try. Some of them come down to, "Do you want to shave with this thing, or just look at it?".
I definitely respect your view Mike but at least you're not a delusional Flat Earther and recognize that some razors do need spine work because it makes a difference.
I've had lots of people tell me that this is BS and it doesn't matter if the razor sits flat on the stone... just roll through it. Ironic thing is, I've had razors in my shop from most all of the nay sayers of what I do and the complaint of their edge is always the same... it just won't shave. They've sent them back to the person and had them re-sharpened and same thing.
First thing I do when I receive it is put it on the granite square in my office and check the wobble. EVERY one has a horrible wobble and when I fix it, they transform into a wonderful shaver. Every time!
Yep. You gotta face facts. A head in the sand attitude will get you nowhere.
Do you think this will change the bevel angle significantly to affect shave? Thanks a lot for the video. While I haven't done any of the things you have shown here, it makes sense.
sourav sagar Yes, it can change the bevel angle but a fraction of a degree. If it changes too much for your taste, you can add a piece of tape to the spine prior to honing from then on. That will bring it right back.
Very interesting. I totally get what you showed. . I hate hone wear. But I now have a new technique to try. Thanks for the video
Two words Ned... Gold Dollar!
What is your opinion on how Dovo hones their razors before they send them out on convex stones? Their thought is since the razor will never be perfectly flat, might as well not hone it that way?
Don't panic Doc , we got your back . Any trolls send em my way . My blade , my rules . If they don't like it they don't need to listen , funny thing with the internet , you can turn it off !! 😂😂
What you are doing is correct. The spine and the cutting edge have to be on the same plane, otherwise the cutting edge will not be straight. and you can never sharpen the blade. As long as the cutting edge ends-up having an acceptable angle you are good to go.
Exactly! Thanks for stopping by.
They are tools to shave with if you don't want to hone it away put it behind a glass case and display it!
Amen Brother!
Great video, common sense, very interesting! I'm practicing honing on vintage razors, and one very common problem is a toe which is honed-out to some extent, which means the spine is often thicker at the heel, and there may also be some longitudinal curve in the flat on the spine, which means the razor will not sit true on the hone, and even if it does, the thicker heel translates to a blade which tapers to the toe. I realised early on that I would have the devil's own job honing a razor in that condition, so I decided to start experimenting with honing the spine and straightening out the geometry before attempting to do anything with the edge. This technique has helped a lot, and I feel I'm on the right lines, although sometimes a lot of metal needs to be removed to true the spine. I have two questions: First, do you ever need to check whether the the flats on the two sides of the spine are parallel? If you do, how do you check? I had one razor where the blade seemed true, it was sitting true on the hone, the flats on the spine were both nice and even, but the bevel on one side was wide at the heel, running to almost nothing at the toe, though apart from that was very even. The conclusion I came to was that the flat on the spine on that side was not parallel to the blade, so in the end, I progressively honed the spine on that side, taking nothing off the heel and more off the toe, and hey presto, the bevel came true and parallel, and thus even; second (and I appreciate that you probably don't spend time honing knackered old razors!), do you have any other suggestions for honing old razors with a honed-out toe, just from the point of view of getting them shaving?
Ed Hillier - I think you kinda answered your own question Ed. Because the razor is warped, you’ll have to take off metal that may be uneven to get it to sit flat. That’s the whole idea! I don’t really worry about getting it parallel as I find it will seek its own level, if you will and sit flat therefore creating a new and true bevel.
TOP ,MASTER
And yes, a razor that fails the tap and wobble test is a warped or twisted razor, period. Ignoring that is like ignoring the fact that it is raining outside.
Fantastic information. Hey Dr. Matt I have a 1850's English wedge that I've been working on using similar technique. How do you address a wide hone wear at the blades edge?
Steve Conaway If it's already there Steve, there's nothing you can do. On a wedge, usually what I'll do is after taping the edge and making the spine correction, I'll then use a layer of tape or 2 on the spine and hone it normally. This will minimize the wear at the edge. It also beefs up the edge which I found helps with the old Sheffield steel as it is a bit softer and won't usually stand up to a narrow bevel angle.
Great video Matt! Quick question man. Do you ever do regrinds on Gold dallors? Meaning move the hollow up to the spine after thinning the thick spine on the GD 66.
Michael Shults - I know what you’re talking about Michael and I don’t do it... yet!😜
Me Matt, great video. I have a vintage razor with this exact issue and keen to try this technique. Can I just ask what the green whetstone was? I think you say? 140? Thanks for your help.
What was the time marker that you saw it?
Hi Matt, you bring it out at 14:45 @@drmatt357
Hi there. Thanks for great videos. If I were to get a diamondstone for correcting stones and geometry would you then go with a 140 or a 400? Thanks
Definitely the 400! I have a 140 and it doesn’t work well at all for those applications.
your videos taught me alot about my razor, It is a new carbon steel boker razor. How can I avoid this bending? At least I now know how to fix it
We come to sit at the feet of the master and learn....
Great info!! Just sent this link to one of my forum members.
Cheers,
Hugh
this seems like good science. people who won't wear down their steel on account of dogma are missing the point of having this piece of steel. you do not need it to look pretty. you need it to shave.
Darwin Bodero Exactly Darwin but you'd be surprised (maybe not) how people say it's BS, unnecessary and so on.
I just got a Diamond plate 1k/400 And I’m having some trouble on my JA Henckel towards the toe, I’m going to try to straighten it out
I got so much better at honing since then! Thx to ppl like Doc here, Anthony, and Glenn
Is that chocolate a perfect wedge ?
Guys I’m thinking of buying my first straight razor. Not sure at this point I want to get into all the technical aspects of honing, bevel setting etc. how cans I find a professional in my town (Augusta Ga) that would be reasonable and produce quality work. Do barber shops do honing etc?
Correcting the geometry is the best solution. Very bad are X strokes on 1k stone. X strokes destroy the correct geometry especially over years.
Flipping straight razor down (edge towards the whetstone) is bad practice.
Indeed it is as if the flattening of a cylinder head is not necessary if you only use enough sealing paste during assembly! 😂
If you think logically then the edge should be straight all the way, everything else is knives that are poorly made or mishandled or dropped.
I do it to any razor that needs it. Can't stand when someone sells me one and doesn't disclose that its warped as all get out.
Chris Monroe - They don’t disclose it Chris because they’re not aware that it could be a problem, don’t know how to check for it or disregard it as a problem because you just “roll through it”.
Maybe so, its a great video though and I do it to all of mine. No work on the stones afterwards except easy honing and touch ups. Im glad you made the video though because once I saw it originally a while ago I tried at and never turned back.
The more I learn about straight razors the more I feel staying away from forums was a good idea.. I want a razor to work! I don’t get the tape thing at all, especially if it has geometry issues.. who cares! At the end of the day a bloody good shave is what I want.
Can I correct the spine on the side that needs it only? Second question, can I still tape the spine after fixing the geometry issue to prevent more wear?
Yes and yes!😉
I never imagined you'd answer that quickly. I watched this vid twice and then set in on it. It's just a $20 union, real junk. I have spent the last two hours flattening the spine so the edge would lay flat. I finally got it. I just marked my edge and made a few swipes on a King 1200. Guess it's ready for sharpening. Thanks alot, you're videos are extremely helpful. I have a Dovo 5/8" prima, ebony handles on the way. Brand new, $60 on eBay.
@@drmatt357I had planned on waiting for you to answer tomorrow and then going at it but I couldn't wait. I wouldn't have been tore up if Ida screwed it up. Thanks again.
I've noticed my dovo has started to shave horribly on the right side of my face and it does have wobble to it and I'm terrified to do this to it because I dont want to screw it up somehow
your the man bro. bless ya. great content.
So you grind down the side that wobbles when tapping?
Hi Doc. I wanted to ask you: how do you know where to press the spine? I have already tried with 2 Gold Dollars and a perfect job has not come out and I have already thrown away a Puma that cost money. I would like to understand if you push the point where the spine does not touch the marble (in the test you do) or on the point where the spine touches. I don't want to throw more razors:) Thanks a lot for your videos:):)
You want to study the wobble and see where the pivot points are. Those are the high spots. Usually what I find and do is hold the heel down to the stone to keep the edge flat (hopefully you have tape on it) and put the pressure on the spine where those pivot points were... if that makes sense.
DrMatt357 Thanks a lot for the answer! Then I did it right. Yes don't worry, I always use tape. I have to try again with the Gold Dollar until I can. The Puma NOS that I had was really crooked :( On one side it swung as if the blade was curved. The other side was quite good, so I managed to correct it. The curved side I removed too much material to make the spine flat and therefore the two sides have become too different and the spine too thin 😩 I never thought that a NOS razor was so crooked 😩😤 And you pay them a lot of money!
hello matt i just bought a straight razor on ebay it's a Wacker and want to know if the edge is normal or is something wrong with the geometry. would you help me please?
No problem Maq. Email me some pics of the blade both sides. drmatt357@hotmail.com
L
Hi and thx for these useful videos. I couldn't stop the wable with an 1000 stone (king), should I try it with an lower stone like an 400? I own an gold dollar and I didn't fix the heel problem first, I am new with the straight razor so any help would be much appreciated, and thank you in advance, have a wonderful day! Much love from Romania
You should fix the heel first Arh as that can screw everything up. I have a video on how to correct the stabilizer.
@@drmatt357 thanks, I will watch it soon
Hi Dr Matt, I have a Wacker Best Traditional. One side, “the front side” has a wobble from heel to toe. This is the axis where toe at the spine and the edge at the heel. The opposite axis, toe at the edge and the heel at the spine is OK. The back side of the razor is flat across both axis. I would think I would need to remove/grid away material on the spine at the heel, but that’s going to affect the opposite axis. How you you correct this issue so that both axis are flat?
First you have to ask, how does the razor shave? You can have a warp or geometry being off but can still work OK. Regarding the different axis, I don't over think it. I'll put it on the plate and do a little work and re-check and keep doing that until I think it's good.
@@drmatt357 It shaves ok, I guess. There’s little to no irrigation when shaving WTG and XTG. I have been working on getting my razors to where I can shave ATG under my nose, mouth and chin. Under my chin and the corners of my mouth are the more sensitive areas. I will sometimes get razor burn under my chin and the corners of my mouth. Shaving ATG above my upper lip and under my nose is tough, I have to be very careful and shave nearly one whisker at a time.
What has gotten me to think trouble is with the geometry or it’s warped is that the heel is plenty sharp but starting midway going towards the toe the more difficult it become to pass the HHT. So basically the edge is less refined/sharp nearer the toe. Using rolling Xs so far I has been unable to bring the edge to the same level as the rest of length of the blade.
I purchased a Le Grelot that was honed by the seller and received the worst irrigation I’ve experienced. I personally honed the razor with much better results. I checked the razor for keenness and it passed the HHT with ease but the shave was terrible. I looked at the edge prior to shaving and I could tell that the razor was honed on a nature stone but I do not know what type.
got into straights months back... im blown away by how much hate is in the community.
LOL! Yeah, I have a lot of them. Thank you for tuning in and enjoy your journey. 💪🏻
So if I now blend the flat edge I've set with the cutting edge on my true wedge....the scratch marks will essentially eventually cover the entire blade, right??
Theoretically I imagine but they usually have a slight hollow grind but on those, I will use tape on the spine after I correct as much as possible.
drmatt357 Thanks, I'm gonna get some better quality tape as mine keeps getting shredded, then double up and go for it. Many thanks for the vids!!!
Would a norton 220 be effective at correcting a geometric issue with a razor?
Jonathan Reeves - it’s been many years since I tried one. You may be able to but from what I remember, it tends to dish quickly so you’d need to keep lapping it.
Thanks Doc.
Can I get info on your sharpening service
Michael Walker - Sure, email me at drmatt1911@gmail.com
Dr Matt, what first razor would you advice to a begginer ? How much do i have to spend to have a decently fucntional razor ?
well I went on to ebay when I purchased my first razor, the first straight I have is big ass henkotsu. well that still my fav and still produce the sharpest shave
You can get decent vintage ones in the 30-40 dollar range or you can get a sorted out Gold Dollar for that or less. I think Anthony Esposito has some.
you sir are a genius.
I have some straight razors that fail the tap and wobble test bad. I was curious as to how much you charge to correct the blade geometry?
Scott Kretschmer - usually $25 Scott.
@@drmatt357 my email is srk_85_04@yahoo.com do you think you could email an adress to send a knife to? Do you accept paypal? If you are okay with that. Thank you so much for taking the time to read and respond to my comment.
great video, thanks
If grinding it flat makes the bloody thing shave who cares. I've learnt more from Dr Matt in one youtube vid than I have spending hours reading useless dogshit on forums. It's all just massive ego's with these guys.
I thought a straight razor was a tool for shaving, not a display piece to look at. You should do what it takes to maximize performance!
Agreed! Wait 'til you see my next video. More heads will melt! 😆
4:56 😂🤣
I know SFA about honing and just got into Straights.
I bought a brand new TI, and it didn't shave.
Wobble test = +ve
Followed the instructions,
Then got a laser shave.
If I can do this by following instructions carefully, then anyone can.
Thanks DrMatt
Im attempting to hone a $11.00 razor, and ive taken off alot of material setting the bevel. Coming off of spine and blade, and still havent got it set. Is this normal?
LOL! It depends on the razor Ron. If it's one of those Pakistan razors, it will never get there. Does it have a brand name on it?
@@drmatt357 its a mastercraft. Picked up at a local knife shop once for hell of it. Figured itd be good for learning on. For cheap
Amazing!!!!!!!!
Hang on, unless I'm getting confussed, aren't you just removing the wobble? You're not actually straightening the blade, you're just removing material to remove the wobble which, to me, seems pointless...
If the blade doesn't sit flat on the stone, the edge will change position relative to the stone. Thus making a perfect edge next to impossible.
Is the x-roll method another way of handle with a "wobble" blade geometry?
Thank you for the videos!
Paulo Santoro You're welcome Paulo. The tape is a work around. It helps but IMO, nothing beats correcting the geometry.
I wonder if those like 10 guys from the Anti-Flat Metal Bevel Society were to meet the Flat Earth Society if they'd get along or be bitter eternal enemies.
Seriously, razors are made to shave with. Some people like shaving with them and shaving with them necessitates sharpening and occasionally reprofiling. When you're dealing with antique razors, too, many of them had DECADES of improper or bad sharpening done to them. If you *_REALLY_* care about the razor that much, you'd be in support of reprofiling and sharpening them to the best that they can be and doing it properly. We still have razors from the 1800s around that were used for multiple generations. Your razor is going to outlive you. Stop worrying if you remove a single solitary atom from the blade and just put the proper bevel on it.
Amen?