The first baseman should have ran to first after tagging the runner going to second, complete the double play, and get out of the inning. There was one out. No need to throw home.
Try listening to Ohio State Football. And a “Poet big play Third down” or something like that. Sacks, touchdowns, tackles for losses, third downs, and everything possible is sponsored. It’s crazy...
+Caio Hinkenickel But the catcher had a better line of sight view of the first base umpire, who called the runner safe, so there was still a force at home.
Good catch, but the catcher's actions could have been influenced by the safe call from the 1st base ump, which is why I think the protest is a good idea to at least get this strange rule interaction examined. In any case, 1st baseman should have taken the easy double play (unless he knew he missed him). And the catcher should have just tagged just in case.
Hows the catcher supposed to know to tag him if the first base umpire called the other guy safe? Should they tag on every force play just in case? I see the As reason for protesting
If the first base umpire called him safe, then that means the force is still on at home. However, since Freeman knows he tagged the runner, basic communication would be to yell "TAG, TAG, TAG!" because the force is removed at all bases except first.
Probably should just to be on the safe side. Just like in football now where you should pick up the ball and run for a TD in case it's later ruled a fumble.
In the era of replay you don't take anything for granted. Flip it around. Mike Moustakas, during his first year in the big leagues, caught a fly ball that was called a trap. He caught the ball, held it up for the ump to see, it was called a trap and the runner was safe. The Royals lost that game due to that. That was before replay. Mike had plenty of time to throw the ball to first and get the out but instead he held it up thinking the ump will call it out. In that case you finish the play out. Now we have replay but what teams have been doing lately is holding the tag on the runner just in case they pop up off of the bag. New rules different approach to the game.
@@RUclips.Algorithmic.Nonsense But if he wastes time applying a tag to a runner that he's already forced out at the base, he could miss an opportunity to pick a runner off by throwing to a different base. Watch him after he tags the plate, he's looking to see if he can make a play somewhere else.
The argument that I find here is that there was no way in knowing that the A's catcher knew he had to tag the runner since the first base umpire called the runners all safe initially.
+Michael Horvat the catcher should have tagged the runner it would have required no effort and he had no play at first. besides, he saw the first baseman TRY to tag the runner. that's enough for me
as a first baseman, I was taught that if I made the tag on the runner and had to throw home, I had to yell "tag! tag!" as I threw to home plate. Freiman's mistake was in not going to the bag for the easiest out after the tag and not yelling tag during the throw.
+Kevin Moore Freiman couldn't be certain that he was going to successfully tag Kawasaki, and with a safe call made by the first base umpire, he had no choice to assume that there *was* no tag, so therefore going to first would have been a stupid play and there was no reason to yell "tag" because there was a force play.
@@crazgamr6295 my head was spinning, but since apparently the 1st baseman tagged the runner going from 1st to 2nd, it really in live play was now 1st & 3rd with two outs and the 1st baseman foolishly threw to home plate for a double-play (could've just stepped on 1st base & its a 3-unassisted double-play on your scorecard), the tag rule is enforced cause one of the two bases (1st or 2nd was unoccupied) & the runner on 3rd isn't forced to run. This happened too fast I wouldn't know what to do as an ump or player
The first base ump called the runner safe, catcher then reacts based off of that and doesn't tag the runner at home. How can you penalize the A's by scoring the run?
How can you penalize the Blue Jays because the umps fucked up? A's 1B should have told the catcher to tag the runner. That's what you do when you negate a force-out, no matter what position you're at.
Because the Jays scored a valid run according to the rules of baseball, even though obviously the catcher could have made the tag if needed but that’s on them for not being aware
LOL @ the people don't get these jokes. Explanation: MLB RUclips videos often have outros that play the same clips on multiple videos. "The Dodgers are celebrating in their dugout" is one of those clips. "Greg Gibson motining to both players" is another one. Think before you open your stupid mouths.
+Dippinshotz It never ceases to amaze me when people call someone an idiot and prove that they are the idiot by not using proper grammar. "Your an idiot it's the blue jays" YOU'RE, as in YOU ARE.
adalaza An error on the broadcaster's part; they were misled by the announcer saying "runner tagged out at first" that they took R1 off right after seeing the out signal without checking the field after or realizing that a runner going from first should be at second after the play. At 8:42 the umpire said "the guy on second's out", so New York got it right.
Here's the problem with expanded instant replay. Since the first base ump rule that the runner was safe, the A's catcher believed only a force play was necessary. By overturning the tag call and allowing the run to score, you are ASSUMING the catcher would have still played it as if it were a force play.
@@ItsPotahto Thats irrelevant. 1st base umpire calls safe, telling the catcher its a force. If the umpire calls out, the catcher tags him. This is an example of the umps blowing a call and then punishing the other team by "correcting" it.. regardless of how the review goes the As gey screwed by the blown call. If its upheld, the As get a free runner at 2nd. If overturned they get a free run.
This is one of the biggest problem in the rules of baseball. Runners being called out or safe immediately changes the rest of the play. If the call is late, no one knows what the situation is, and if the call is wrong, it can be impossible to work out who should be safe or out, and which bases the runners should be on. It's the same thing with a possible catch; if the umpire isn't sure whether it's caught, no one knows whether to tag up or keep running, and if the umpire makes the wrong call and it's reviewed, they basically have to guess where everyone would have ended up.
Yep, people thinking this is an easy call/review aren't really thinking it through. MLB could take the position that all players are responsible for keeping track of the game state on their own and cannot rely upon umpires calls to make decisions, but then every pitch will be reviewed and robots will take over the officiating.
The catcher is not looking at the 1st base umpire when the throw is coming to him. 1st baseman needs to yell tag tag tag to let him know he needs to tag the runner coming home.
@@blakethornsbrough1528 not convinced: at 9:51 he is looking straight at the ball, the 1B and the umpire (who is calling safe right then). These are athletes with good vision and even a normee would be able to see that.
Tim Lackie Jr. Not true. The catcher was wondering why there is a discussion at all because he saw the first base umpire call the runner going to second base safe at 9:50 of this video.
@@lincolnhawk4671 Considering my original comment was not directed to you, you're actually the one looking for attention from other men here. Not interested, but there's someone for everyone. Don't give up bud.
I think in a situation like this, where an incorrect call gets overturned and cascades to change other calls on the field, the team which changed their play based on the call could choose to let the original call stand (IE. The A's could choose to let the runner going to second remain safe, and the force still be in effect at home... since that's how it was called on the field). Sort of like how football teams have the choice of whether to let a play stand on a foul. I know this could be a little sticky... in cases like this, the Jays could argue that if EE had seen the out call, he would have known the force was off and returned to 3rd, so it would end up being a judgement call from the umps, but it seems reasonable. To me, what happened here would be akin to a player hitting a single, which on review is overturned into a home run. Then, because it's a home run he's called out because he overran first base (thinking it was a single) and technically left the base path. You can't punish a team for playing according to an umpire's call.
+Ryan Smock The ump at first not only did not call him out, he called him SAFE. The entire defense at that point KNOWS there is a force at the plate - from what the ump at first just called. What is the catcher expected to do? Create a possible collision at the plate, and tag the runner heading home? (on an obvious - to all the players on the field - force play) THAT would clear the benches.
The A's argument could be that the ump called the runner safe, so the catcher thought he had a force out at home...which they just mentioned at the end of the video.
I don't think players should let umpires dictate the rhythm of play before the final out. Meaning that if your going for the double play, act like you got the first out no matter how close it was, if he tagged him at home and it was unnecessary BC the runner at second was actually safe then so be it. But changing the Strategy mid play is where we get protests like this. (Obviously you have to look to the umpire for final out confirmation) OK new plan. After writing this I can see why the A's protested. Bc of the safe call they didn't want to waste time with a tag giving the other runner a chance to move up. I see both arguments now.
Maybe a change for this is making tag plays that change force outs on other bases unreviewable. But i just noticed this damn thing was 5 years ago soooooo
@@adamarchambeau7063 I agree, mostly. But you can see the catcher checking the other bases looking for another play. If he wasted time applying an unnecessary tag, he might miss a play at about base.
Would have been interesting if the Blue Jays won to see what the results of the protest would have been. But the first baseman has to be yelling tag when he throws to alert the catcher to what's going on.
Willoughby Krenzteinburg The catcher DIDN'T know what was going on. If he did, he would have tagged the runner coming home. He assumed he had a force play, and he was wrong. The catcher have known that the runner leaving 1B may have been tagged, so he's got to know he should tag the runner coming home. He blew it.
Eric Alexander You understand that the umpire ruled safe, right? The catcher sees this call, and assumes there is a force. Are we supposed to just assume the calls of umpires are always wrong? Why would he assume that the runner got tagged when the umpire SAYS HE IS SAFE?!!! I'm not convinced you understand fully what is going on here.
Willoughby Krenzteinburg I see what you're saying. I thought the ump at 1B signaled out, but i slowed it down and see he made a safe sign. I didn't pay attention to what the TV said for outs and baserunners because they get it wrong on every odd play.
Willoughby Krenzteinburg There is no way the catcher saw that signal. The throw was already in the air to him, so he was focusing on the throw. He just made an assumption that no tag had been made. If he had been thinking he would have made the tag just in case.
A fascinating play. This play seems to have an endless number of layers to it, for example, the first base umpire did wave that the runner was safe and had not been tagged, but his call was only made as the throw was leaving the first baseman's hand. An argument can be made that a catcher should have the right to rely upon the signal of the umpire, but in this situation the call could not have been made quick enough for the catcher to rely upon it. I am trying to figure out what the rule SHOULD be rather than what it actually is. And I am not sure.
The announcer at 4:15 was wrong, there was a call, the 1st base umpire called the runner going to 2nd, safe. That's why the home-plate umpire looked over to 1st base and then called the runner going home, out.
OpTiuM Dezzo I think the runner that hit the single "stole" 2nd. Idk when he did it, but that's what I'm assuming. Because with there not being a force out due to the tag, the ball was still live after the throw to home. I hope that makes sense. I'm not 100% sure, but that's what I think!
I'm going to ask a dumb question here. There was one out. The ball was hit to first. He tagged the runner going to second and threw the ball home. Why the bloody hell didn't he just run over and step on first base for the presumed double play and cancel the run anyway? In the end, the As would have argued the tag at first instead of John Gibbons, and the inning would be over after the tag was confirmed. The As ought to be embarrassed that this even happened.
Cyclone it wouldve made this a lot easier but i think the 1st baseman saw there was no tag guess he mustve missed him and made the smart play and threw to home to prevent a run
The inning would be over *after the tag was confirmed*. It was not guaranteed that R1 would be called out on replay. The call on the field was no tag. There must be clear and convincing evidence to overturn the call, and the fielders in the play could not have known whether there was enough evidence, or even if the tag was made. Perhaps 1B missed by a hair or made some other mistake - it was very hard to figure it out in real time and make a play. The safe course of play was to rely on the call on the field and throw home. Had 1B gone to the 1B bag and anything gone wrong, a run would have scored.
He applied the tag and knew he did. There was no miss of the tag. also, it looks as if the pitcher and first baseman who applied the tag were pointed at the catcher to apply a tag on the runner coming to home plate @9:59
This play and its review is very interesting. They got the call right by ruling R1 out on the tag, but how do you then judge whether or not the catcher would have made an attempt to tag R3 had U1 not waved safe due to no tag on the play, and whether or not that tag would have been successful? That signal by U1 may (and may not) have effected the catcher's actions. I can see how this call stands as is after being reviewed, but I can also see how this review could have ended up with both R1 and R3 being ruled out. Hmmm..
The problem is that the first base umpire called the "tag" as Safe. If the tag is called safe, then it makes sense that it continues as a force play instead of a tag play.
Why didn't the first basemen just tag the guy and touch 1st base? Inning ending double play. Looks like he has plenty of time. Maybe he thought he missed the tag?
I argued this in another comment thread. He should have gone to first, then the As would argue for the tag, not John Gibbons (who would put himself out of the inning with no gain).
Sprattbj The issue is that due to the "safe" call at first, the A's catcher didn't believe he had to tag the runner going home. Why penalize the A's for the umpires mistake?
+Baseball11626 Exactly. What is the catcher expected to do? Create a collision play at the plate on every force out there.... just in case one of the runners later gets called out? They could be called out later due to running out of the base line, or being tagged. But the first base ump DID call him safe - no tag.
Let me sum this up for the people still confused. The call after the review was correct since the runner was tagged, the play by the catcher was the correct play though also because with the original call on the field the play at home was a force out. The catcher would have seen the first base umpire calling the runner safe making the play at home a force out so he didn't think he had to tag the runner. But since he was actually tagged the play at the plate was no longer a force out. The reason the A's protested the game was basically because the first base umpire gave the Jays a run by calling the runner safe but lets say the call on the field stood because according the first to the call on the field the runner at home should've been out, the Jays could've protested the game saying you took a run away from us. If the first base umpire could've made the correct call on the field none of this would've happened.
Probably the first baseman needed to go to 1st and get the out there, why throw home? Anyway, they never made the call for the runner going to second so nobody knew hey had to tag him, I think this is on the umpires, because if they called him out, he would have known to tag him, like he said, it was a little unfair. He could have ran out of the baseline as well to avoid the tag. This is a wierd play, but at the same time it makes a little since. Glad I didn't watch this live, because I would be really confused too.
This play should not be reviewable. Simple as that. If it is reviewed and reversed (as it was here), then you penalize the defensive team for acting in accordance with the call on the field. Do we really want players to start assuming the call is wrong and apply a tag on every play? No. Fortunately, the A's won this game so the protest was dropped, but MLB needs to tweak the replay rule (if it hasn't already) so this never occurs again.
Mark Haswell There is no way Vogt saw the umpire's safe call and because of that didn't apply a tag, he simply assumed no tag had been applied to Kawasaki and did what he would normally do on such a play.
Kavi Farr the catcher is looking right at first base and the umpire is right there, so I'm not sure how you can say that the catcher didn't respond to the umpire's call.
Mark Haswell I have to agree here. Football has gone to the whole ability to assume the call was wrong and it has really made the sport even more controversial than it already was.
@marvlm last second and in slow motion too, that’s hard to see especially when the runner was called safe. I know this comment is two years old but still
That was on the catcher too. He needs better awareness to see the runner tagged going to second and to know the force is no longer in play. Umps make mistakes (quite often) so you can't totally rely on them, catcher should have seen the tag and put the tag on at the plate just incase.
YOu certainly can blame the umpire. It isnt the responsibility of the players to tell the catcher to tag or not. If the umpire calls safe, then officially, the play is still a force and the catcher doesnt need to tag. I can yell tag on every single play if i want, it doesnt mean the umpires can signal anything they want. I am not really sure what the solution is though. YOu do have to call the runner on first out since that is a reviewable call. Doing so means the play at home SHOULD have been a tag but since you cant reverse time, you are essentially penalizing oakland for an umpires miscall. I think that is what is being protested here. I wonder what the solution to this ended up being
it was a force out you idiot the ump called the guy SAFE at 2nd so the force out STILL APPLIES which is why you dont see the catcher tag the catcher was looking at the ump and he saw him say SAFE. Safe at 2nd equals force out at HOME fuck you guys are all dumb
It's obvious. If the man at 1st is tagged out, the runner at home is safe because he was not tagged by the catcher. It's no longer a force out, it has to be a tag out.
+Steve Thomas The issue becomes the umpires original call. The catcher didn't tag him because the 1st base ump said there was no original tag meaning he wouldn't have had to tag the runner at home because it would be a force out.
+Steve Thomas someone posted this and its true, I didn't look into it so much. There is someone on third base or someone from second running to third therefore making the person at homeplate still a force play. Let me know what you think, I could be wrong.
silencedknight you are wrong. That's not how it works. Basically, if the lead runner HAS to run on a hit, it's a force out anywhere. For example, if there are runners on 1st and 2nd, and a batter hits it to 3rd base, it's a force out at 3rd, then at 2nd, then 1st.
I believe TV side got it wrong. At the end of the highlights, you see first base occupied by a Jay's runner. Based on the outfield and the stands in the stadium.
I dispute that the run should score. The reason being that the runner going to second was initially called safe, and so the catcher RIGHTFULLY did not attempt a tag play because he would have correctly inferred a force play in the situation where the runner was called safe, and it was only after the play that the runner was called out. If the umpire called the runner out, then the catcher could have noticed and executed a tag play. It's unfair to the catcher who justifiably did not execute a tag play under the conditions that the umpires themselves created.
Kaiser Fred unfortunately, none of that matters in the black and white of the rule book. Once it was determined that the tag was made, that takes the force off at home and they had to score the run.
Did MLB ever address this in a rules update? There were 2 "plays" that happened (1. Tag? of runner from first. 2. Force out at home.) And the 2nd play was based on info from the first. But it was the first play that challenged, and thus resulted in an overturn of the 2nd play.
1. Since the 1st base ump called the runner from 1st base to 2nd base was safe from a tag, during play, the A's played it according to the umps call. 2. At the end of it all, there should be a runner at 3rd and 1st. NOT 2nd. The runner going from 1st to 2nd was the one tagged. Yet they call out the batter going to 1st. Just DUMB
I think they called out the runner on first, which would have been the runner going to second. Yeah the first base umpire screwed over both teams. Regardless of which way they would call it, one team was going to get screwed over.
+Elijah Stevenson Then the A's would have challenged and won that challenge, inning over, with the DP confirmed. Here, the catcher was placed in an impossible situation.
If the tag was called correctly, yes. But that's not really the issue. If Kawasaki was called out, the catcher would have at least attempted to make a tag, and they really should be trying to reconstruct what would have happened if the correct call had been made, and everyone on the field had been aware of the situation, not just making a ruling on which tags were made or not made.
The problem is had the umpires made the call at the proper time the catcher would've tagged at home. It was not a close play at home at all. The goal of the review is to make the outcome whatever would've happened if the umpires had gotten it right. That being said letting a run score here would not achieve what the reviews are meant to.
If there was only 1 out at the time and he got the tag down, why couldn't he have gone back and touched first? That's a double play and the run doesn't score
That's exactly what I was thinking lol that was a dumbass play on his part lol as a firstbase man I was taught if you tag the runner go to first base that's the closest play especially in this situation and if you go home you have to tell the catcher
He didn't have to go home. He could have gone to first for the unassisted double play and argued the tag. If he indeed missed, then they would give up the run anyway.
From the Retrosheet description of the game: Melvin played the game under protest, which was thrown out due to the Athletics victory; after the game, it was determined that a team cannot protest any decision made by replay;
I don't believe that the protest would have been upheld anyway because the safe call on R1 was a judgement call. There was no misapplication of a rule.
so basically what my understanding of this play is this: vogt thought it was a force out at home so he didnt tag, but it ended up being a tag play because he was out, but the A's manager is saying how could he tag him if he thought it was originally a force???
my understanding of this, is player going from 2nd to 3rd cant be forced due to runner from 1st to 2nd being tagged out, however runner from 3rd to home could as the runner from 2nd to 3rd could force bump him to home if that makes any sense my read of the situation is runner from 2nd to 3rd is the only one that could not be called out from a force play but the runner at home could and should as that is how the play happened.
Ok so it took me a while to understand this play, but to anyone not understanding what was being arguing this is what happened. The runner going from First Base to Second base was tagged; however, if you look at the first base umpire when the tag is applied, he signals that the runner is safe, therefore making it a force out on Encarnacion. Blue Jays manager argues that the runner going to second was indeed tagged (replay confirms that he was tagged) and that he should be ruled out. Therefore if the runner going to second is out, home plate is no longer a force out (back catcher with foot on home plate while catching ball). Encarnacion should have been tagged because theoretically, Encarnacion could have back tracked to third base and the third base runner could have back tracked to second base on the out because that runner going to second base is no longer in the play as he is out.
In addition, the umpires messed up the call. The runner going to second base should be out and there should be a runner at first base and third base with one run scored. I'm not sure how they came up with a runner at second and third with a run scored...
An umpiring mistake should not allow a team to gain an advantage. The 1st base ump missed the call (although he was blocked). He signaled "safe". Everything after that is a chain of events based on his mistake. The runner going to second should have been called out and the runners on 2nd and third sent back to the bases with no run scored.
The rules do allow that: 8.02(c) If the umpires consult after a play and change a call that had been made, then they have the authority to take all steps that they may deem necessary, in their discretion, to eliminate the results and consequences of the earlier call that they are reversing, including placing runners where they think those runners would have been after the play, had the ultimate call been made as the initial call, disregarding interference or obstruction that may have occurred on the play; failures of runners to tag up based upon the initial call on the field; runners passing other runners or missing bases; etc., all in the discretion of the umpires.
Technically, the first baseman should have yelled “Tag!” Just like a double play when he fields the ball, touches first, and then throws to second. Obviously a rare and crazy play but the first baseman should have called for a tag at the plate.
problem is him calling safe, changes how the players act. if he called out the catcher would know he needed to apply a tag, but he called safe so the actions of the players would change.
The first base umpire motioned safe after the first baseman tagged the runner. Which means that the call on the field was that he was not tagged. So the rest of the play has to be judged assuming that Runner was safe meaning the play at home technical should be a force out.
What a great play to have happened, never seen this but with the first base ump calling him safe, why would you not just force out and then be ready to make a throw... several things happening at once and I say the runner should be on 2nd with the coming home out.
The runner should have been automatically out because he ran out of the base line. He's was 3' in the grass making the play at plate still a force play
The overturn call was the right one here. It’s natural on a play like this for the corners to throw home for the double play but first base tagged a baserunner before getting the force, completely rendering the force out at home useless. His best option was probably tag the runner and get the force that was still in play at first, but this is a special situation that’s hard to prepare a player for because it started out so routine but evolved into something so unorthodox.
Aidan Mulligan MLB usually sweeps it under the rug. There's only been 1 protested game upheld in the last 30+ years. In that game, MLB ruled that a rain-shortened game had to continue, instead of being called final. MLB will find any reason they can to blow off legitimate protests.
***** Probably the most famous protest! True, but that protest was over 30 years ago. Buuuuut I was wrong in my statement, anyway. It wasn't over 30 between upheld protests, it was a little over 28 years. There last successful protest fore the one on Aug 19, 2014 was on June 16, 1986. The point is, the MLB will almost definitely find against any protest, automatically. From that 1986 game, it took MLB 28 years, 2 months, and 4 days to actually uphold another protest. That's virtually a mathematical impossibility, especially when you have to believe that the umpires didn't once make a bad call that changed a game for the losing team, and the losing team filed and lost the protest. MLB doesn't want to be bothered with the difficulties (especially among gamblers) of replaying games from the point of protest.
I don't believe you're referring to the Giants/Cubs tarp incident, in which the Giants protested and the Cubs actually agreeing with the Giants in that case. If not, that would make it 2. The other one, which I DO believe you're referring to, happened in 1986 when the Pirates protested a rain-shortened game due to the home plate umpire not allowing enough time to pass in the delay, and called the game anyway.
I think they are protesting because the runner was called safe on a missed tag and the catcher saw that and had no reason to assume that this was a tag play at home. If the runner was called out on the tag I'm sure the catcher would've been able to easily apply the tag on the runner at home, and there would've been no run scored either way. A replay was literally the only way the Blue Jays should be able to score there, which is why there is (and should be) a protest from the Athletics
Since the ump did not call the runner from first out, the play at the plate becomes a force out.. you cant undo the force out and call the runner safe. Umpires apparently have small IQs
The issue is the fact that they called the guy going to second safe. Which makes the catcher think the play at home is a force. Overturning the safe call should make the runner return to 3rd and then the other runner back to 2nd. Because it’s not fair that since they missed the call they score a run
SamuelWilson615 Sarcasm isn’t necessarily about joking. And I include the note because normally, sarcasm is used in speech, and you use a tone of voice which cues the listener that you mean the opposite of what you say. Speeding up the game is not my goal, it is MLB’s stated goal, as games currently last longer than they have in the past. (Box scores record the length of the game). Pro baseball is, through certain rules changes trying to pick up the pace of a game at a time when people’s attention span is shorter. There is also the issue that World Series games start at night, and on the East Coast, children, the future of the game, are in bed long before the game is over. In the minor leagues, Pro Baseball has gone as far as installing a clock (like a play clock in football) which penalizes pitchers if they do not pitch before the clock expires. MLB considered using the clock in the major leagues, but are trying other measures first. All I am pointing out is that adding challenges and reviews of plays is at cross purposes with MLB’s goal (not mine) of speeding up the game.
If they don't call the guy running from 1st to 2nd out how can you expect the catcher to know it has to be a tag play? The catcher didn't tag the guy at home because of the initial call made on the play...
I think the reason the first baseman was pointing was he knew he'd got the tag and was trying to tell the catcher to put the tag on. He should have gone to first. It looks like he could have easily beat the batter and since that would have been a force out it would have prevented the run from counting, even if the runner from third crossed the plate before he got the out at first, right?
I doubt seriously that the catcher knew whether the 1st base ump made a call or not. The ball was over halfway to him so he was looking at the ball not the umpire. It was his mistake to not tag the runner. He had the play right in front of him. If he didn't know that the runner was tagged then that's on him and his teammates so the correct ruling was made in the end.
I was at this game. The first base umpire called the runner safe, which meant there should have been a force play at home, and the inning wouldn't have ended if the first baseman had tagged first base. Both the first baseman and the catcher relied on the safe call by the first base umpire in deciding how to handle the play. If the first base umpire had initially called the runner out on the tag, the play would have gone differently. This is one of the downsides of allowing calls to be reviewed and overturned. As long as the ball is live, all players on the field can make decisions based on umpire calls. It's easy to come up with other scenarios like this. Suppose there's a runner on first with fewer than two outs, and the batter hits a fly ball that an umpire initially says wasn't caught. The runner at first advances to second without tagging up. Then replay shows that the fly ball was caught. This allows an appeal play on the runner who's now at second. What was the runner supposed to do to stay out of this mess? I think review of calls has been a good thing for baseball, but there are cases where it can lead to absurd outcomes like this.
Ryan Lindsay The runner has 3 feet on either side of the BASE PATH not bag. The runner establishes the base path. Also the base path doesn't come into play until he is AVOIDING a tag.
Commentators saying they’ve never seen this has to be bs. This is practiced at every level. The whole infield should be yelling “tag” as the 1B throws it.
None of this wouldn't have happened if Greg Gibson, the home plate umpire was there motioning to both players.
I see what you did there..
Lmao
LOL
Lol that's a baseball fan right there
+Mega Medium Thats in to the right feild corner,robinson......nice catch for out #1
The first baseman should have ran to first after tagging the runner going to second, complete the double play, and get out of the inning. There was one out. No need to throw home.
BeatleKid96 I honestly don't know why he didn't do that.
i think he knew that he missed the tag so he immediately threw it home i honestly dont think he tagged him
Did you not watch the replays?
i know but the ump didnt call him out during the play so he threw it home
3:36 "This play under review is presented by Samsung"
Sponsorship is getting a little out of hand
Linguini Not that bad. I think the NFL has the worst sponsorships honestly.
Try listening to Ohio State Football. And a “Poet big play Third down” or something like that. Sacks, touchdowns, tackles for losses, third downs, and everything possible is sponsored. It’s crazy...
Linguini 😂😂😂
Minor League Baseball is bad too. "This Foul Ball is presented by" ... "This First Pitch Strike is brought to you by" ... Kind of ridiculous.
this yankees red sox brawl is brought to you by....
this nut shot is brought to you by....
this manager ejection is brought to you by....
2019 and just barely showing up on my recommendations what the?
Ha! Me too. I thought this was recent
This video still shows up as a recommended video several times despite me having seen it back in 2014.
Effing Google....censorship
@9:59 you can see the A's pitcher and firstbaseman pointing for their catcher to apply the tag.
They both saw the tag on the runner.
+Caio Hinkenickel But the catcher had a better line of sight view of the first base umpire, who called the runner safe, so there was still a force at home.
+Caio Hinkenickel Well spotted
+Richard Teran True, but if he would have made the tag anyway, it takes care of everything...:)
Good eye
Good catch, but the catcher's actions could have been influenced by the safe call from the 1st base ump, which is why I think the protest is a good idea to at least get this strange rule interaction examined. In any case, 1st baseman should have taken the easy double play (unless he knew he missed him). And the catcher should have just tagged just in case.
Hows the catcher supposed to know to tag him if the first base umpire called the other guy safe? Should they tag on every force play just in case? I see the As reason for protesting
If the first base umpire called him safe, then that means the force is still on at home. However, since Freeman knows he tagged the runner, basic communication would be to yell "TAG, TAG, TAG!" because the force is removed at all bases except first.
Probably should just to be on the safe side. Just like in football now where you should pick up the ball and run for a TD in case it's later ruled a fumble.
In the era of replay you don't take anything for granted. Flip it around. Mike Moustakas, during his first year in the big leagues, caught a fly ball that was called a trap. He caught the ball, held it up for the ump to see, it was called a trap and the runner was safe. The Royals lost that game due to that. That was before replay. Mike had plenty of time to throw the ball to first and get the out but instead he held it up thinking the ump will call it out. In that case you finish the play out. Now we have replay but what teams have been doing lately is holding the tag on the runner just in case they pop up off of the bag.
New rules different approach to the game.
right, how can we know which calls to ignore and which calls to heed?
@@RUclips.Algorithmic.Nonsense But if he wastes time applying a tag to a runner that he's already forced out at the base, he could miss an opportunity to pick a runner off by throwing to a different base. Watch him after he tags the plate, he's looking to see if he can make a play somewhere else.
The argument that I find here is that there was no way in knowing that the A's catcher knew he had to tag the runner since the first base umpire called the runners all safe initially.
+Michael Horvat the catcher should have tagged the runner it would have required no effort and he had no play at first. besides, he saw the first baseman TRY to tag the runner. that's enough for me
That's probably what was being protested...
tedgey omg ur so stupid
1NICK23 3 years late dipshit.
@@brookiiecookie199 better late than never
"I've never seen this play before"
Apparently these guys have never seen high school baseball.
I think hes talking about a coach arguing his player was out
“TAAAAAAAAGGGGGGG”
Yeah I remember running a specific bases loaded drill where first baseman would make the tag or tag the base then throw home yelling "tag tag tag!"
This play presented by the grass growing under the players’ feet.
as a first baseman, I was taught that if I made the tag on the runner and had to throw home, I had to yell "tag! tag!" as I threw to home plate. Freiman's mistake was in not going to the bag for the easiest out after the tag and not yelling tag during the throw.
+Kevin Moore Freiman couldn't be certain that he was going to successfully tag Kawasaki, and with a safe call made by the first base umpire, he had no choice to assume that there *was* no tag, so therefore going to first would have been a stupid play and there was no reason to yell "tag" because there was a force play.
+TedManney spend 15-20 years playing and practicing at first base then come back and have this discussion.
Actually you only go to the bag if the ball is hit to your left
thats the first thing I thought... why didnt he yell tag when he threw home...unless he thought he missed the runner.
Angel Bonilla better to yell tag than to let everyone assume.
Shouldn’t the runner be on 1st and 3rd after they overturned the call?
You’re right. It should be Runners on 1st and 3rd, One run scored, and 2 Outs
No. The play continued with the runner going to second.
@@crazgamr6295 my head was spinning, but since apparently the 1st baseman tagged the runner going from 1st to 2nd, it really in live play was now 1st & 3rd with two outs and the 1st baseman foolishly threw to home plate for a double-play (could've just stepped on 1st base & its a 3-unassisted double-play on your scorecard), the tag rule is enforced cause one of the two bases (1st or 2nd was unoccupied) & the runner on 3rd isn't forced to run. This happened too fast I wouldn't know what to do as an ump or player
10:38 he is at first just just the scoreboard is wrong
The first base ump called the runner safe, catcher then reacts based off of that and doesn't tag the runner at home. How can you penalize the A's by scoring the run?
How can you penalize the Blue Jays because the umps fucked up? A's 1B should have told the catcher to tag the runner. That's what you do when you negate a force-out, no matter what position you're at.
Because the Jays scored a valid run according to the rules of baseball, even though obviously the catcher could have made the tag if needed but that’s on them for not being aware
Hahaha a team wanting to to challenge that their own player is out......Thats awesome haha. Great challenge though.
Right
soccerlover1598 Well, if they tagged the runner from second it would remove the force at home and the run would score. Though you probably know that.
hadmiar8 Yeah I know the situation, I just wanted to comment on how awesome the situation was. Never seen anything like it before.
soccerlover1598
True.
And that's why baseball is for smart people! Johnny Gibbons one of the most underrated Skips ever
He tagged the guy who was on first going to second. Shouldn’t there be players on first and third and not second and third?
9eagle9 the batter advanced to second after the throw home (fielder’s choice)
False there was a runner on second until the play was reviewed
And then the runner on first was magically there
That's the TV crew (graphics guy) not getting it right...or not caring until the game continued. II
Rumor has it to this day the dodgers are still celebrating in their dugout
Sulfuric Acid it's the bluejays
Your an idiot it's the blue jays
Dude its just that you dont get the joke
LOL @ the people don't get these jokes.
Explanation: MLB RUclips videos often have outros that play the same clips on multiple videos. "The Dodgers are celebrating in their dugout" is one of those clips. "Greg Gibson motining to both players" is another one. Think before you open your stupid mouths.
+Dippinshotz It never ceases to amaze me when people call someone an idiot and prove that they are the idiot by not using proper grammar. "Your an idiot it's the blue jays" YOU'RE, as in YOU ARE.
Correct ruling after review except for the player advancing to second. Should have had been players on the corners.
adalaza An error on the broadcaster's part; they were misled by the announcer saying "runner tagged out at first" that they took R1 off right after seeing the out signal without checking the field after or realizing that a runner going from first should be at second after the play. At 8:42 the umpire said "the guy on second's out", so New York got it right.
Stevie Wonder would've said NY got it right LOL
I think the batter was the one who advanced to second.
Here's the problem with expanded instant replay. Since the first base ump rule that the runner was safe, the A's catcher believed only a force play was necessary. By overturning the tag call and allowing the run to score, you are ASSUMING the catcher would have still played it as if it were a force play.
Jeffrey John the first baseman and pitcher were pointing and probably yelling at him
@@ItsPotahto
Thats irrelevant. 1st base umpire calls safe, telling the catcher its a force. If the umpire calls out, the catcher tags him.
This is an example of the umps blowing a call and then punishing the other team by "correcting" it.. regardless of how the review goes the As gey screwed by the blown call. If its upheld, the As get a free runner at 2nd. If overturned they get a free run.
Even the Home plate umpire thought it was out at home.
This is one of the biggest problem in the rules of baseball. Runners being called out or safe immediately changes the rest of the play. If the call is late, no one knows what the situation is, and if the call is wrong, it can be impossible to work out who should be safe or out, and which bases the runners should be on.
It's the same thing with a possible catch; if the umpire isn't sure whether it's caught, no one knows whether to tag up or keep running, and if the umpire makes the wrong call and it's reviewed, they basically have to guess where everyone would have ended up.
Yep, people thinking this is an easy call/review aren't really thinking it through. MLB could take the position that all players are responsible for keeping track of the game state on their own and cannot rely upon umpires calls to make decisions, but then every pitch will be reviewed and robots will take over the officiating.
The catcher is not looking at the 1st base umpire when the throw is coming to him. 1st baseman needs to yell tag tag tag to let him know he needs to tag the runner coming home.
@@blakethornsbrough1528 not convinced: at 9:51 he is looking straight at the ball, the 1B and the umpire (who is calling safe right then). These are athletes with good vision and even a normee would be able to see that.
The A's went on to win the game, which moots the protest. Too bad. Could have been one of those great lawyerly baseball questions.
You can tell by the catcher's body language that the catcher knew He screwed up.
Tim Lackie Jr. Not true. The catcher was wondering why there is a discussion at all because he saw the first base umpire call the runner going to second base safe at 9:50 of this video.
You know the catcher?
003 7712 I’m an athlete. That’s all you need to know. Now get back in the kitchen and cook the man some eggs bitch!
003 7712 That was a very sad line. You don’t get many women do you? Oh, you like men you say? That pretty much sums up every one of your comments.
@@lincolnhawk4671 Considering my original comment was not directed to you, you're actually the one looking for attention from other men here. Not interested, but there's someone for everyone. Don't give up bud.
I think in a situation like this, where an incorrect call gets overturned and cascades to change other calls on the field, the team which changed their play based on the call could choose to let the original call stand (IE. The A's could choose to let the runner going to second remain safe, and the force still be in effect at home... since that's how it was called on the field). Sort of like how football teams have the choice of whether to let a play stand on a foul.
I know this could be a little sticky... in cases like this, the Jays could argue that if EE had seen the out call, he would have known the force was off and returned to 3rd, so it would end up being a judgement call from the umps, but it seems reasonable.
To me, what happened here would be akin to a player hitting a single, which on review is overturned into a home run. Then, because it's a home run he's called out because he overran first base (thinking it was a single) and technically left the base path. You can't punish a team for playing according to an umpire's call.
Once the 1st baseman realized that the tag was made, he should've just went to touch 1st base...
DerekJeter5Rings But since the ump never called him out on the tagged play then the first baseman assumes he is safe and has to go home.
Ryan Smock but then you can always challenge that you indeed did tag the runner. So then it would have been a double play anyways
+DerekJeter5Rings but if the runner is ruled out then theres no out at home cause there was no tag made
jhanks2012 but only if the challenge is not overturned
+Ryan Smock The ump at first not only did not call him out, he called him SAFE. The entire defense at that point KNOWS there is a force at the plate - from what the ump at first just called.
What is the catcher expected to do? Create a possible collision at the plate, and tag the runner heading home? (on an obvious - to all the players on the field - force play)
THAT would clear the benches.
The A's argument could be that the ump called the runner safe, so the catcher thought he had a force out at home...which they just mentioned at the end of the video.
I don't think players should let umpires dictate the rhythm of play before the final out. Meaning that if your going for the double play, act like you got the first out no matter how close it was, if he tagged him at home and it was unnecessary BC the runner at second was actually safe then so be it. But changing the Strategy mid play is where we get protests like this. (Obviously you have to look to the umpire for final out confirmation)
OK new plan. After writing this I can see why the A's protested. Bc of the safe call they didn't want to waste time with a tag giving the other runner a chance to move up. I see both arguments now.
Maybe a change for this is making tag plays that change force outs on other bases unreviewable. But i just noticed this damn thing was 5 years ago soooooo
@@adamarchambeau7063 I agree, mostly. But you can see the catcher checking the other bases looking for another play. If he wasted time applying an unnecessary tag, he might miss a play at about base.
@@pyrobryan i think I said the same thing on another comment lmao
Would have been interesting if the Blue Jays won to see what the results of the protest would have been. But the first baseman has to be yelling tag when he throws to alert the catcher to what's going on.
puttter The catcher new what was going on. The umpire ruled him safe, so as far as the catcher is concerned, there is a force at home.
Willoughby Krenzteinburg The catcher DIDN'T know what was going on. If he did, he would have tagged the runner coming home. He assumed he had a force play, and he was wrong. The catcher have known that the runner leaving 1B may have been tagged, so he's got to know he should tag the runner coming home. He blew it.
Eric Alexander You understand that the umpire ruled safe, right? The catcher sees this call, and assumes there is a force. Are we supposed to just assume the calls of umpires are always wrong? Why would he assume that the runner got tagged when the umpire SAYS HE IS SAFE?!!!
I'm not convinced you understand fully what is going on here.
Willoughby Krenzteinburg I see what you're saying. I thought the ump at 1B signaled out, but i slowed it down and see he made a safe sign.
I didn't pay attention to what the TV said for outs and baserunners because they get it wrong on every odd play.
Willoughby Krenzteinburg There is no way the catcher saw that signal. The throw was already in the air to him, so he was focusing on the throw. He just made an assumption that no tag had been made. If he had been thinking he would have made the tag just in case.
A fascinating play. This play seems to have an endless number of layers to it, for example, the first base umpire did wave that the runner was safe and had not been tagged, but his call was only made as the throw was leaving the first baseman's hand. An argument can be made that a catcher should have the right to rely upon the signal of the umpire, but in this situation the call could not have been made quick enough for the catcher to rely upon it. I am trying to figure out what the rule SHOULD be rather than what it actually is. And I am not sure.
Exactly, the called seemed simple at first, but it was deceptively so.
The announcer at 4:15 was wrong, there was a call, the 1st base umpire called the runner going to 2nd, safe. That's why the home-plate umpire looked over to 1st base and then called the runner going home, out.
If the umpires didn't see the tag, then duh they have no choice but to review it, review is the greatest thing that ever happened to the MLB!
it should be guy is out at second with runners on first and third and jays have a run
James Bond i dont know it should have been first and third
OpTiuM Dezzo Good way to confuse people who are trying to learn the game...
timmyboy yeah really
OpTiuM Dezzo I think the runner that hit the single "stole" 2nd. Idk when he did it, but that's what I'm assuming. Because with there not being a force out due to the tag, the ball was still live after the throw to home. I hope that makes sense. I'm not 100% sure, but that's what I think!
***** yeah i see where you are going with that and i skipped that so i think you are right
I'm going to ask a dumb question here.
There was one out. The ball was hit to first. He tagged the runner going to second and threw the ball home.
Why the bloody hell didn't he just run over and step on first base for the presumed double play and cancel the run anyway? In the end, the As would have argued the tag at first instead of John Gibbons, and the inning would be over after the tag was confirmed. The As ought to be embarrassed that this even happened.
Cyclone I was thinking the same thing
Cyclone it wouldve made this a lot easier but i think the 1st baseman saw there was no tag guess he mustve missed him and made the smart play and threw to home to prevent a run
The inning would be over *after the tag was confirmed*. It was not guaranteed that R1 would be called out on replay. The call on the field was no tag. There must be clear and convincing evidence to overturn the call, and the fielders in the play could not have known whether there was enough evidence, or even if the tag was made. Perhaps 1B missed by a hair or made some other mistake - it was very hard to figure it out in real time and make a play. The safe course of play was to rely on the call on the field and throw home. Had 1B gone to the 1B bag and anything gone wrong, a run would have scored.
He applied the tag and knew he did. There was no miss of the tag. also, it looks as if the pitcher and first baseman who applied the tag were pointed at the catcher to apply a tag on the runner coming to home plate @9:59
This play and its review is very interesting. They got the call right by ruling R1 out on the tag, but how do you then judge whether or not the catcher would have made an attempt to tag R3 had U1 not waved safe due to no tag on the play, and whether or not that tag would have been successful? That signal by U1 may (and may not) have effected the catcher's actions. I can see how this call stands as is after being reviewed, but I can also see how this review could have ended up with both R1 and R3 being ruled out. Hmmm..
Steve Clark first base should have yelled TAG when he threw home, fk they taught us this in little league
Orisni and the umpire should have called the runner out when the first baseman tagged him. They also taught us this
Umpire at first base said safe saying its a force out. No reason for review. Umpires fault
Completely correct
As a catcher, how would you know to tag the runner if the 1st base runner was called safe?
That’s a good point because the catcher had no reason to tag him so it’s unfair for him that the run should count
Because F3 knew he tagger the runner so he should have been yelling "tag" so the catcher would know.
Rich Ives The umpire fucked up. There’s zero reason for the catcher to tag the runner when he sees the safe call at first.
I was actually at this game. My dad and I sat there confused the whole time. We weren't even mad when the call was made lol.
The problem is that the first base umpire called the "tag" as Safe. If the tag is called safe, then it makes sense that it continues as a force play instead of a tag play.
Why didn't the first basemen just tag the guy and touch 1st base? Inning ending double play. Looks like he has plenty of time. Maybe he thought he missed the tag?
cause there was no out called on his tag. so he needed to throw home to keep the run from scoring.
+Doug Parker when the runner running to second was tagged, the force at home is automatically eliminated.
I argued this in another comment thread. He should have gone to first, then the As would argue for the tag, not John Gibbons (who would put himself out of the inning with no gain).
Why was this so difficult for them?
Sprattbj The issue is that due to the "safe" call at first, the A's catcher didn't believe he had to tag the runner going home. Why penalize the A's for the umpires mistake?
Baseball11626 Yes I agree , the no call on the tag should have let the play stand.
+Baseball11626 Exactly. What is the catcher expected to do? Create a collision play at the plate on every force out there.... just in case one of the runners later gets called out? They could be called out later due to running out of the base line, or being tagged.
But the first base ump DID call him safe - no tag.
There was a call on the tag. They said safe when he was clearly tagged.
Because you get to watch replays over and over again and they're doing it in real time
I've never seen anything like this. One of those bizarre rules
Let me sum this up for the people still confused. The call after the review was correct since the runner was tagged, the play by the catcher was the correct play though also because with the original call on the field the play at home was a force out. The catcher would have seen the first base umpire calling the runner safe making the play at home a force out so he didn't think he had to tag the runner. But since he was actually tagged the play at the plate was no longer a force out. The reason the A's protested the game was basically because the first base umpire gave the Jays a run by calling the runner safe but lets say the call on the field stood because according the first to the call on the field the runner at home should've been out, the Jays could've protested the game saying you took a run away from us. If the first base umpire could've made the correct call on the field none of this would've happened.
Probably the first baseman needed to go to 1st and get the out there, why throw home? Anyway, they never made the call for the runner going to second so nobody knew hey had to tag him, I think this is on the umpires, because if they called him out, he would have known to tag him, like he said, it was a little unfair. He could have ran out of the baseline as well to avoid the tag. This is a wierd play, but at the same time it makes a little since. Glad I didn't watch this live, because I would be really confused too.
This play should not be reviewable. Simple as that. If it is reviewed and reversed (as it was here), then you penalize the defensive team for acting in accordance with the call on the field. Do we really want players to start assuming the call is wrong and apply a tag on every play? No. Fortunately, the A's won this game so the protest was dropped, but MLB needs to tweak the replay rule (if it hasn't already) so this never occurs again.
Mark Haswell There is no way Vogt saw the umpire's safe call and because of that didn't apply a tag, he simply assumed no tag had been applied to Kawasaki and did what he would normally do on such a play.
Kavi Farr the catcher is looking right at first base and the umpire is right there, so I'm not sure how you can say that the catcher didn't respond to the umpire's call.
Mark Haswell I have to agree here. Football has gone to the whole ability to assume the call was wrong and it has really made the sport even more controversial than it already was.
Watch the wide angle replay. The 1st baseman WAS YELLING and POINTING to the catcher
marvlm the first baseman thought he tagged him- but didn't see the 1st base ump call safe- which I gather the catcher did see...
@marvlm last second and in slow motion too, that’s hard to see especially when the runner was called safe. I know this comment is two years old but still
That was on the catcher too. He needs better awareness to see the runner tagged going to second and to know the force is no longer in play. Umps make mistakes (quite often) so you can't totally rely on them, catcher should have seen the tag and put the tag on at the plate just incase.
this play took 10 minutes to review??? wtf...
Ikr, the empires should have been able to just turn over the play, it's not rocket science, it wasn't a force out, 1-0 BlueJays with 1out
but he called him safe so it wasnt his fault he didnt tag. it is the umpires fault and thus is completely unfair to the a's
^ Nope. First baseman and pitcher both yelled tag. See 9:57
Catcher fucked up. Can't blame the ump.
YOu certainly can blame the umpire. It isnt the responsibility of the players to tell the catcher to tag or not. If the umpire calls safe, then officially, the play is still a force and the catcher doesnt need to tag. I can yell tag on every single play if i want, it doesnt mean the umpires can signal anything they want. I am not really sure what the solution is though. YOu do have to call the runner on first out since that is a reviewable call. Doing so means the play at home SHOULD have been a tag but since you cant reverse time, you are essentially penalizing oakland for an umpires miscall. I think that is what is being protested here. I wonder what the solution to this ended up being
it was a force out you idiot
the ump called the guy SAFE at 2nd so the force out STILL APPLIES which is why you dont see the catcher tag
the catcher was looking at the ump and he saw him say SAFE. Safe at 2nd equals force out at HOME
fuck you guys are all dumb
It's obvious. If the man at 1st is tagged out, the runner at home is safe because he was not tagged by the catcher. It's no longer a force out, it has to be a tag out.
+Steve Thomas The issue becomes the umpires original call. The catcher didn't tag him because the 1st base ump said there was no original tag meaning he wouldn't have had to tag the runner at home because it would be a force out.
+Steve Thomas someone posted this and its true, I didn't look into it so much. There is someone on third base or someone from second running to third therefore making the person at homeplate still a force play. Let me know what you think, I could be wrong.
what is force out....at the home plate no matter what the catcher should tag the runner right ? or is there any other rule...pls explain
silencedknight you are wrong. That's not how it works. Basically, if the lead runner HAS to run on a hit, it's a force out anywhere. For example, if there are runners on 1st and 2nd, and a batter hits it to 3rd base, it's a force out at 3rd, then at 2nd, then 1st.
silencedknight you are actually wrong. No different than 1st baseman touches 1st base and throws to 2nd. The fielder at 2nd has to tag runner
It should be: runners on the corners, 2 outs, with one run scored
Yes, I caught that too. Baffling that they even screwed THAT up.
I believe TV side got it wrong. At the end of the highlights, you see first base occupied by a Jay's runner. Based on the outfield and the stands in the stadium.
I dispute that the run should score. The reason being that the runner going to second was initially called safe, and so the catcher RIGHTFULLY did not attempt a tag play because he would have correctly inferred a force play in the situation where the runner was called safe, and it was only after the play that the runner was called out. If the umpire called the runner out, then the catcher could have noticed and executed a tag play. It's unfair to the catcher who justifiably did not execute a tag play under the conditions that the umpires themselves created.
Kaiser Fred unfortunately, none of that matters in the black and white of the rule book. Once it was determined that the tag was made, that takes the force off at home and they had to score the run.
you dont know baseball so youre dumb and no it shouldnt
Did MLB ever address this in a rules update? There were 2 "plays" that happened (1. Tag? of runner from first. 2. Force out at home.) And the 2nd play was based on info from the first. But it was the first play that challenged, and thus resulted in an overturn of the 2nd play.
1. Since the 1st base ump called the runner from 1st base to 2nd base was safe from a tag, during play, the A's played it according to the umps call.
2. At the end of it all, there should be a runner at 3rd and 1st. NOT 2nd. The runner going from 1st to 2nd was the one tagged. Yet they call out the batter going to 1st.
Just DUMB
I think they called out the runner on first, which would have been the runner going to second. Yeah the first base umpire screwed over both teams. Regardless of which way they would call it, one team was going to get screwed over.
Of there was no tag at first and the first plate umpire called him safe the play at home doesn't require a tag. You can't have it the way you want it.
All the first baseman had to do was tag the runner and tag first
+Elijah Stevenson Then the A's would have challenged and won that challenge, inning over, with the DP confirmed. Here, the catcher was placed in an impossible situation.
GoodRiddanceGooglePlus The umpire fucked up. There’s zero reason for the catcher to tag the runner when he sees the safe call at first.
I just want to say i hate youtube for ads in the middle of videos.
According to the rules it should be 1-0 Toronto.
If the tag was called correctly, yes. But that's not really the issue. If Kawasaki was called out, the catcher would have at least attempted to make a tag, and they really should be trying to reconstruct what would have happened if the correct call had been made, and everyone on the field had been aware of the situation, not just making a ruling on which tags were made or not made.
According to the rules the Ump signaled no tag so forced out at home.
The problem is had the umpires made the call at the proper time the catcher would've tagged at home. It was not a close play at home at all. The goal of the review is to make the outcome whatever would've happened if the umpires had gotten it right. That being said letting a run score here would not achieve what the reviews are meant to.
If there was only 1 out at the time and he got the tag down, why couldn't he have gone back and touched first? That's a double play and the run doesn't score
That's exactly what I was thinking lol that was a dumbass play on his part lol as a firstbase man I was taught if you tag the runner go to first base that's the closest play especially in this situation and if you go home you have to tell the catcher
He didn't have to go home. He could have gone to first for the unassisted double play and argued the tag. If he indeed missed, then they would give up the run anyway.
From the Retrosheet description of the game:
Melvin played the game under protest, which was thrown out due to the Athletics victory; after the game, it was determined that a team cannot protest any decision made by replay;
I don't believe that the protest would have been upheld anyway because the safe call on R1 was a judgement call. There was no misapplication of a rule.
very nice way to make this vid 10 minutes long 😘
so basically what my understanding of this play is this: vogt thought it was a force out at home so he didnt tag, but it ended up being a tag play because he was out, but the A's manager is saying how could he tag him if he thought it was originally a force???
Genius move by TBJ. Too bad they lost
my understanding of this, is player going from 2nd to 3rd cant be forced due to runner from 1st to 2nd being tagged out, however runner from 3rd to home could as the runner from 2nd to 3rd could force bump him to home if that makes any sense my read of the situation is runner from 2nd to 3rd is the only one that could not be called out from a force play but the runner at home could and should as that is how the play happened.
Once R1 was called out, there can never be a force at any base.
Wasn’t second base runner out? Not first..
Ok so it took me a while to understand this play, but to anyone not understanding what was being arguing this is what happened. The runner going from First Base to Second base was tagged; however, if you look at the first base umpire when the tag is applied, he signals that the runner is safe, therefore making it a force out on Encarnacion. Blue Jays manager argues that the runner going to second was indeed tagged (replay confirms that he was tagged) and that he should be ruled out. Therefore if the runner going to second is out, home plate is no longer a force out (back catcher with foot on home plate while catching ball). Encarnacion should have been tagged because theoretically, Encarnacion could have back tracked to third base and the third base runner could have back tracked to second base on the out because that runner going to second base is no longer in the play as he is out.
In addition, the umpires messed up the call. The runner going to second base should be out and there should be a runner at first base and third base with one run scored. I'm not sure how they came up with a runner at second and third with a run scored...
Should’ve been a 3U double play if he was thinking
Jake Conley exactly
Thank God for instant replay. The A's would have won at least more two playoff games back around the year 2000 if instant replay had existed.
An umpiring mistake should not allow a team to gain an advantage. The 1st base ump missed the call (although he was blocked). He signaled "safe". Everything after that is a chain of events based on his mistake. The runner going to second should have been called out and the runners on 2nd and third sent back to the bases with no run scored.
Bryan Alexander So any strike or ball call that leads to a strikeout, why not reverse those?
Bryan Alexander that sounds fair. But the rules dont allow that.
The rules do allow that:
8.02(c)
If the umpires consult after a play and change a call
that had been made, then they have the authority to take all
steps that they may deem necessary, in their discretion, to eliminate
the results and consequences of the earlier call that they
are reversing, including placing runners where they think those
runners would have been after the play, had the ultimate call
been made as the initial call, disregarding interference or
obstruction that may have occurred on the play; failures of runners
to tag up based upon the initial call on the field; runners
passing other runners or missing bases; etc., all in the discretion
of the umpires.
@GoodRiddanceGooglePlus Well, actually the 1st base umpire did signal safe, watch the video again.
Why would tagging the player vs the base make a difference to the play at home? Why would it still be considered a force play if the bag was tagged
But the runner ran out of the baseline before he tagged him
That would still make him out and creating a tag play at home instead of a force play.
He was nowhere close to being out of the base path. The dirt is not the runner's base path.
Ryan Robbins the grass is the runners base path? What are you saying? Lol.
@@Islanders83 the base runner makes his own path, and that path isn't established until the moment the defense tries to tag him. LOL.
Technically, the first baseman should have yelled “Tag!” Just like a double play when he fields the ball, touches first, and then throws to second. Obviously a rare and crazy play but the first baseman should have called for a tag at the plate.
The first base umpire called safe so it is reviewable.
problem is him calling safe, changes how the players act. if he called out the catcher would know he needed to apply a tag, but he called safe so the actions of the players would change.
This is why I always tag the runner coming home no matter what
This is why I love baseball lol, you don't really see stuff like this in other sports.
You can not blame the catcher he did not know that he tagged him
Catcher has to tag the runner.
The first base umpire motioned safe after the first baseman tagged the runner. Which means that the call on the field was that he was not tagged. So the rest of the play has to be judged assuming that Runner was safe meaning the play at home technical should be a force out.
What a great play to have happened, never seen this but with the first base ump calling him safe, why would you not just force out and then be ready to make a throw... several things happening at once and I say the runner should be on 2nd with the coming home out.
Not only did the 1st base ump call it safe, the runner ran all the way to second.
Oakland throwing down on some Boz Scaggs. Nice
i knew they were good for something
Let's say that the umpire didn't see the tag, the runner is still about 4 feet out of the baseline, on the infield grass. How did they miss that?
The runner should have been automatically out because he ran out of the base line. He's was 3' in the grass making the play at plate still a force play
The overturn call was the right one here. It’s natural on a play like this for the corners to throw home for the double play but first base tagged a baserunner before getting the force, completely rendering the force out at home useless. His best option was probably tag the runner and get the force that was still in play at first, but this is a special situation that’s hard to prepare a player for because it started out so routine but evolved into something so unorthodox.
anyone else here from 2019
Please explain to me what it means to play under protest. Does it like, not count to the record or something?
what happens with the protest rule? I've never seen it used.
Aidan Mulligan MLB usually sweeps it under the rug. There's only been 1 protested game upheld in the last 30+ years. In that game, MLB ruled that a rain-shortened game had to continue, instead of being called final. MLB will find any reason they can to blow off legitimate protests.
Eric Alexander Don't forget the George Brett protest, that was replayed too.
***** Probably the most famous protest! True, but that protest was over 30 years ago.
Buuuuut I was wrong in my statement, anyway. It wasn't over 30 between upheld protests, it was a little over 28 years. There last successful protest fore the one on Aug 19, 2014 was on June 16, 1986.
The point is, the MLB will almost definitely find against any protest, automatically. From that 1986 game, it took MLB 28 years, 2 months, and 4 days to actually uphold another protest. That's virtually a mathematical impossibility, especially when you have to believe that the umpires didn't once make a bad call that changed a game for the losing team, and the losing team filed and lost the protest.
MLB doesn't want to be bothered with the difficulties (especially among gamblers) of replaying games from the point of protest.
Aidan Mulligan when Billy Martin was managing the Yankees, I think he protested twice a week just for fun.
I don't believe you're referring to the Giants/Cubs tarp incident, in which the Giants protested and the Cubs actually agreeing with the Giants in that case. If not, that would make it 2. The other one, which I DO believe you're referring to, happened in 1986 when the Pirates protested a rain-shortened game due to the home plate umpire not allowing enough time to pass in the delay, and called the game anyway.
Does anyone know why if they appealed because of the result of the review or that it wasn't supposed to be a reviewable play?
8:26 I love how the audience is booing because their team made a bad decision and the mlb got the call RIGHT.
In my opinion the runner ran out of the baseline therefore he’s out and it’s a force play at home
@@Bigoski1 If R1 was called out, it would have been a tag play at home, not a force play.
I think they are protesting because the runner was called safe on a missed tag and the catcher saw that and had no reason to assume that this was a tag play at home. If the runner was called out on the tag I'm sure the catcher would've been able to easily apply the tag on the runner at home, and there would've been no run scored either way. A replay was literally the only way the Blue Jays should be able to score there, which is why there is (and should be) a protest from the Athletics
Who signaled the runner going to second as Safe? I saw U1 signal an Out.
Disregard. Looking closer, it did appear U1 signaled safe.
@@jolynnaponte7955 yeah well I guess none of it matters because this was from 2014 lol
Since the ump did not call the runner from first out, the play at the plate becomes a force out.. you cant undo the force out and call the runner safe.
Umpires apparently have small IQs
billymac29 4:41 he did call him out (look a right side of screen)
billymac29 I think u have the low IQ
@@GrantParkzz you're a moron
The issue is the fact that they called the guy going to second safe. Which makes the catcher think the play at home is a force.
Overturning the safe call should make the runner return to 3rd and then the other runner back to 2nd.
Because it’s not fair that since they missed the call they score a run
Well, I’m sure glad MLB found a way to speed up games. (Sarcasm intended).
if you have to explain that you were joking than the joke wasn't good enough
And honestly, why does the game need to be any faster? Its perfect the way it is
SamuelWilson615 Sarcasm isn’t necessarily about joking. And I include the note because normally, sarcasm is used in speech, and you use a tone of voice which cues the listener that you mean the opposite of what you say.
Speeding up the game is not my goal, it is MLB’s stated goal, as games currently last longer than they have in the past. (Box scores record the length of the game). Pro baseball is, through certain rules changes trying to pick up the pace of a game at a time when people’s attention span is shorter. There is also the issue that World Series games start at night, and on the East Coast, children, the future of the game, are in bed long before the game is over.
In the minor leagues, Pro Baseball has gone as far as installing a clock (like a play clock in football) which penalizes pitchers if they do not pitch before the clock expires. MLB considered using the clock in the major leagues, but are trying other measures first.
All I am pointing out is that adding challenges and reviews of plays is at cross purposes with MLB’s goal (not mine) of speeding up the game.
Was is game replayed? If the A’s play under protest it’s supposed to me reviewed and replayed if the review is over turned
what a surprise sonny gray has bases loaded
If they don't call the guy running from 1st to 2nd out how can you expect the catcher to know it has to be a tag play? The catcher didn't tag the guy at home because of the initial call made on the play...
I like how nobody caught onto the fact that the 1st base umpire's "safe" call was him indicating that the ball was not caught on a line.....
I highly doubt that. He didn't call the play safe until after it was being thrown home.
When did rounders get so complicated?
#SaveDogderfilms
#saveDODGERfilms
I think the reason the first baseman was pointing was he knew he'd got the tag and was trying to tell the catcher to put the tag on.
He should have gone to first. It looks like he could have easily beat the batter and since that would have been a force out it would have prevented the run from counting, even if the runner from third crossed the plate before he got the out at first, right?
1st baseman should have yelled tag they literally teach that in little league
I doubt seriously that the catcher knew whether the 1st base ump made a call or not. The ball was over halfway to him so he was looking at the ball not the umpire. It was his mistake to not tag the runner. He had the play right in front of him. If he didn't know that the runner was tagged then that's on him and his teammates so the correct ruling was made in the end.
He was out of the base line or path
I was at this game. The first base umpire called the runner safe, which meant there should have been a force play at home, and the inning wouldn't have ended if the first baseman had tagged first base. Both the first baseman and the catcher relied on the safe call by the first base umpire in deciding how to handle the play. If the first base umpire had initially called the runner out on the tag, the play would have gone differently.
This is one of the downsides of allowing calls to be reviewed and overturned. As long as the ball is live, all players on the field can make decisions based on umpire calls. It's easy to come up with other scenarios like this. Suppose there's a runner on first with fewer than two outs, and the batter hits a fly ball that an umpire initially says wasn't caught. The runner at first advances to second without tagging up. Then replay shows that the fly ball was caught. This allows an appeal play on the runner who's now at second. What was the runner supposed to do to stay out of this mess?
I think review of calls has been a good thing for baseball, but there are cases where it can lead to absurd outcomes like this.
Great example- even more acute if the runner is on third and scores without tagging up. He has no legal way to return to 3B, even if he wants to.
The runner was out of baseline anyways.
You blind shit no he wasnt
Joe NotKearney He clearly was. Learn the rules.
xHalfBloodAx Alex I hope you realize that the runner has 3 feet on EITHER side of the bag. He still had plenty of room on the baseline
Ryan Lindsay The runner has 3 feet on either side of the BASE PATH not bag. The runner establishes the base path. Also the base path doesn't come into play until he is AVOIDING a tag.
noex100 You are the fucking idiot of the week. You are the one who needs to learn the rules dumbass.
Commentators saying they’ve never seen this has to be bs. This is practiced at every level. The whole infield should be yelling “tag” as the 1B throws it.