Not meaning to take a side or get in a squabble, but it's quite an interesting thing to stop and consider for a moment: Business premises, business insurances, employee wages, national insurance, holiday pay, maternity pay, pension contributions, tools and equipment, office furniture, parts, VAT and other business taxes, import and export fees, interest payments on loans, R&D costs, heating, lighting, IT systems and servers, IT support, vehicle and shipping costs, accountancy fees, advertising and marketing costs, retailer fees and on and on and on. The price of the components that make a product probably represent a small amount of the real cost of a single synth sat on a shelf. That's just off the top of my head. Goodness only knows what else a company like Sequential has to consider and account for, but I guarantee they've worked that out accurately.
I've worked in medical and aerospace low rate manufacturing for almost 20 years. People will be really complaining after China invades Taiwan and sanctions start pouring in. Consumers have no idea how good they have it now.
You got pinned, I would like to de-pin you, to do so would mean I would need to make a depinning device which means RnD. 1stly we would need to sit around the table and understand why we need to make said device, this would need also a tea lady, because you cannot brain storm without tea, that's a fact. So far we have 4 employees and a tea lady adding to a costing for RnD, then factor in that this could take days, weeks, months, because we really need to understand why depinning a Ball is a worthy challenge. After all this effort, we have decided to scrap this and move onto something more fruitful, which we now need to write off as a tax break. There is a lesson to be learned, sometimes time investment in itself is a costly expenditure, and that cannot ever be recovered. This is called NRBT, Non Recovery Ball Time. HNY Alex. well summed up.
It's soooo true. In the US, a large percentage of new small businesses fail, and a big reason for that is they don't anticipate all of the expenses. I briefly worked for the US Small Business Administration a really long time ago.
Just like the pedal video, this is a person who has never tried to do anything themselves. I've made my own pedals, I've built my own modular. I've tinkered with designs but to come up with unique and powerful instruments is an absolutely laborious task. Few have the capability. Now make them in volume...or maybe theyre too complex like the schmidt etc. They're are synth products out there made with passion instead of market goals. They cost the moon. They are also awesome and amazing things. When you see a synth thats mass market and expensive, many considerations were made to make it that cheap in the first place. Sitting in your middle class middle age man cave full of gear and complaining about cost is such a bad look. I'd suggest a mirror but the guy literally films himself saying this stuff.
I love DIY, but I've found that I rarely save money - partially because I'm constantly trying to "do it right" in a way few makers would do (building some Pultecs right now... those transformer costs!)
@@TibbonI totally get it as well, yeah in the end you don’t save as much money as you hope unless you’re really careful to use every hacky trick and use mint cans for enclosures lol
Kraft admitted to me in a comment on the noose video that he's basically doing this for clicks. Reminds me of the line from Roger Waters' solo album Amused to Death: "Every man has his price, Bob... and yours was pretty low."
Yes. Espen is a bit of a tit. Very opinionated and he’s never wrong. Except most of the time he is. I’ve had a few heated debates with him in YT comments before in the past. I hear he’s sold most of his synths now. Maybe he’s going to concentrate on his singing voice instead.
People really don't seem to intuit that material cost is never the only driver of product cost. As a single narrow example, I recently spent 3 full work weeks reading data sheets and testing various options to decide on the best color sensor IC to use for a product I'm designing for work. The one I settled on costs like $1.00 each in bulk. Assuming that the product cost should be the material cost is just another way of saying I shouldn't be paid for my work hours. Not to mention all the other costs like manufacturing and assembly, injection molds, shipping, storage, advertising, testing and certifications, and so much more.
I think software (oh my the overhead on DAWs is nutty alone) and games are a good way to build some sort of intuition. Yeah duh, you need a blank cartridge, but maybe, just maybe, the 100 million USD games of today are expensive for a reason on not just because publishers want to squeeze their customers. I mean, they truly do, too, but you need to factor in a bunch of variables to arrive at a solid final prize - and synths, pedals, hardware - all of it - isn't that special either. Never mind businesses trying to hedge their odds against eventualities: how do you actually handle the very, very real possibility of a mass recall because crombling the morphlür dial to 9 ended up bricking your fancy new device or electrocuted a group of school kids during music class? People only ever really see the final product, as it lies in their hands. If you were busy in any product design or manufacturing capacity, you know the massive tail of nonsense you have to deal with before you barely can get a prototype running, let alone go into full production.
@@dvamateur Actually the EEs might be safe from AI. Can't share links in comments, but if you feed the latest LLMs a schematic of 3 capacitors in parallel, but drawn in a counter-intuitive fashion, and prompt it to calculate the capacitance, it completely biffs the question and spits out an answer that is incorrect for both series and parallel capacitance. Maybe the pricier models are smarter, and maybe the more expensive specialized ones don't make this mistake, but beyond fun little hobby stuff any LLM Agent output would mandate scrutiny from an actual human engineer based on what I've seen so far.
@ddqd123 Well, to me personally, most of what AI spits out sounds like a dry consumer report article. But the majority of people like that. In an economic and political system when majority decides, you don't have anything to say.
People forget about the scale of the manufacturing, cost of running a business (Health insurance for employees???) and R&D + resellers must make a profit + various certifications and approvals.
Plus that this all assumes that everything goes to plan. Every synth maker occasionally makes one that just doesn't sell for one reason or the other, or one that breaks so fast that most repairs are on warranty, so they need to have a financial buffer that can absorb the loss.
Espen Kraft has become one of those poisoned YT content makers. He's taken his channel too seriously for his given subscriber base and niche channel topic. He's struggling against the people who have called him out for years as being just another YT music maker and he took it way too personally. He has lashed out at people before, including me, for pointing out his rather arrogant personality and behavior. His latest stunts at provoking the much bigger fish has turned his once great channel into rage bait and egocentric bullying. "I'm Espen Kraft and you're not" is a particularly good example of him going psychotic in his struggles against negative comments. You know what, Espen Kraft? I'm glad I'm not Espen Kraft! I am tremendously happy to not be Espen Kraft because I would never want to be such a terrible personality like you have become. I unsubbed because I don't think there's room for such drama in the synth world and we don't need rage-baiting trolls stirring the pot like this.
He always struck me as being quite insincere, like he was just in it for the money. Doing stuff for the money is great, and I respect it completely if you're honest about it and remain likable, but Espen seemingly always has a chip on his shoulder and comes across with a bad attitude, like he knows more about production, synthesis, etc., than his audience do. I don't hate the guy, but you're absolutely right to say he's arrogant and takes himself too seriously.
As someone who did the math of selling my synthesizer modules I challenge Espen Kraft to put a synthesizer out that is at a Behringer price point, he should just do it to prove his point - ah and he should show the world which hourly wage he got out of doing so. Don't get me wrong, Synths ARE expensive, especially compared to guitar pedals or whatever other mass product you can think of, but that is because of economy of scale (if you sell a 100 of something and not 10k or 100k pieces you will have to ask more per piece. Again - I came in thinking like Espen, did the math myself and realized that yeah: things are reasonably priced for the market circumstances, if not even a bit too cheap. But that means in the world of synths a DIY approach is still worth it (in the world of guitar pedals it also is, but only if you're seeking a thing that isn't made by the big names). I co-run the Synthesizer-DIY course at HFBK Hamburg for half a decade now and we ask our students to just pay parts cost. If you ask for just parts cost (1x the BOM cost) you will be at a loss if a SINGLE person doesn't pay you and BEST CASE scenario is you earned nothing and worked for free. So obviously 1x the bom cost is not working outside academia. Now the question is, what kind of multiple of the BOM cost is reasonable? My number (a mixture of gut feeling and research) is minimum 2.5x (unless you are spreading those numbers over multiple products and accept some will cost you, as explained in the JHS video). And the maximum is what you can get away with of course, but as a consumer I'd feel comfortable all the way up to 5x if the build quality,/service/manuals/etc are good.
Espen is a musician (and RUclipsr) so he has a direct relationship between his source of revenue and his costs. He has not run a business so he doesn't understand paying employees, having insurance, building out R&D labs/factories, utilities, servicing debt and paying all sorts of taxes. There's a video where he pulled out an all-in-one analog oscillator chip that used to sell for a few dollars and said synths were too expensive. That said he has undeniable talent. But musicians are terrible to listen to for anything other than music
So true with the prototype vs. product. I made hundreds of prototypes over the years, but just every tenths goes of as a product. It's hard work to make a value good product.
Some of Espen's recent takes have been fairly reductive and ridiculous. So much so that I have stopped giving them the engagement these 'hot takes' are designed to manufacture
This is just speculation on my part, but I suspect part of what allows Behringer to sell its synth products so affordably is that they can pad the profit margins on higher volume product lines, specifically their live sound offerings. So while a manufacturer like Sequential needs to make a decent profit on every Prophet (heh), Behringer can pad its margins on things like its WING digital mixers. If Behringer priced its synths like its live sound equipment, the UB-Xa might be priced at $3300 instead of $1200 - based on the understanding that the A&H SQ-6 digital mixer costs about as much as a Sequential OB-x8, and the Behringer Wing 48 costs $3300. This is a big-time apples-to-oranges comparison however, so take with a grain of salt.
A lot of people (with zero clue about the industry) refuse to believe this, but you’re exactly right. Behringer synth pricing is what you get when you have an extremely well tuned far east manufacturing base where any fixed costs, rent etc are paid for by the main equipment (PA etc) and you can do smaller runs at cost and sell them for a price that barely breaks even. Basically Behringer synths are Uli’s ”I want to create a legacy”-project and are (by Uli’s mandate) ”freeloading” on the rest of Behringer gear.
But the truth is that none of those critics counting money in somebody else's pocket are capable to come up with any competitive product they'd offer at such a low price they believe to exist.
I'm hoping to make sure my comments are educational and constructive. There is this odd feedback loop between creators and the audience, as mediated by the algorithm. My last video about an Espen Kraft video (on the Prophet X) maxed out at around 7,000 views, which is like 6 times the number of views most of my technical videos get. My channel is deliberately not monetized through ad revenue, since I never want such concerns to effect how make videos. But as a creator it's frustrating to put a ton of work into a deep, detailed video and have few people click on it, when one made in an evening about the Latest Controversy gets a ton of attention.
@@Lantertronicsand yet, your videos are some of the ONLY ones in the space they’re in. Yes, they’re niche, but if you want to find videos about circuit design beyond complete amateur level, there aren’t many genuine articles on all of RUclips.
I have completely stopped watching all of the bigger synth content creators, they all strike me as weirdos these days. People take themselves way too seriously. Alex Ball is still incredible though, one of the best channels on here.
I was wondering why the boring AS3394 videos on my channel were getting clicks then I found Espen's last video. Took a deep breath and turned off the clickbait.
Thanks for the level-headed analysis. It's been sad to see Espen focusing all of this recent energy on this. I fear it's probably too late for him to have a change of heart, it seems like he's enjoying the negative attention and building a new personal image around controversy. I really hope I'm wrong and he puts this all behind him, but it feels like he's just now starting down a tragic path of negativity for attention.
_"It's been sad to see Espen focusing all of this recent energy on this."_ Because the boring content he produces has totally run out of ideas. If you have a look at his channel statistics you'll see the truth. So nothing can help to boost number of views as much as a good hype. But it's not gonna work for that long.
Are you putting Buchla synths on the same level as Sequential, Moog, Oberheim, Roland, Korg? I've never even seen a Buchla synth for sale anywhere, ever. I've never seen them outside of pictures in a book or online. I've never known anyone who ever owned one. Buchlas are so obscure they might as well not exist outside of West coast, college music labs.
Espen is both right and not. Because we do have examples like Korg's reissue of MS-20. MS20 Mini was, what, $500? And then an absolutely identical fullsize keys version arrives, which, apart from said keys, uses literally the same hardware - and suddenly they are asking an extra $1000 because sub $2000 was the going used price of the OG MS20 on eBay. So yes - there are examples of companies ripping us off. But stuff like a PC motherboard inside Prophet X is definitely not it.
Not sure I agree - The MS-20 FS is a special edition and doesn't replace their MS-20 mini reissue, so if you want a cheaper model Korg will happily sell you one. It also doesn't use the same hardware: Different PCBs, including the main PCB which has a filter switch, 1/4 jacks ("real" PCB mounted ones with non-cosmetic nuts like the mini) instead of 1/8th, bigger enclosure etc, and even on release it was cheaper than a vintage MS-20. They've definitely got some bigger margins on the full-sized but they also probably sell 50 to 100 MS-20 minis for every full-sized.
Being of Norse heritage myself, I understand that trolls are part of the myths and folklore of the region. Most of us realize that we don’t have to emulate them on social media as ESPN did, though.
The thing is, it always depends. But when I look e.g. at prices of synths by Dreadbox which is a small company selling their original designs with the pricing of Moog (all products, except VST plugins) I surely think that Moog is ripping us off. For sure a small company should have higher marginal cost due to economics of scale.
Espen is a friend of mine. Thanks for making valid points that stick to substantive issues from the videos focusing on facts and evidence, all while maintaining a respectful tone. Cheers. ☀ P. S. Nice channel!
Thank you for your kind words! I've watched Espen's channel for a while now and really like most of his content -- I just disagreed with this tangent he's on.
Some of his latest videos remind me of that intro to the Neil deGrasse Tyson Masterclass: "One of the great challenges in this world is knowing enough about a subject to think you're right, but not enough about the subject to know you're wrong."
Dell computer used to send our boards out to a contract manufacturer and offer some stupid amount as a price based on just the construction of the board... they didn't account for the thousands of man hours in the design of the software and hardware of the produce along with all the people in the company.. Sales, Marketing, Finance, HR, Warehousing... you name it. The price isn't based on the component cost, it's based on the total cost of production + PROFIT.. to make new products.
Depends. Moog synths are now mostly manufactured on a conveyor in China, but the price didn't go down and InMusic's development costs were exactly $0, so they are getting an insane profit margin on these. It's a mix of everything - including company's plain greed as well.
I am reminded of Fred Brooks, who observed (paraphrased from memory) that "software developers whip up some code in a weekend, then wonder why [Brooks's employer] IBM charges so much. It takes 10* the original estimate to produce a system which is usable by all customers, and 10* that to produce one which is correctly documented." I read this book 20 years ago, so I'm sure I got some of the specifics wrong here, but I think the overall point is correct. Just saying that you could assemble something doesn't mean that you've turned it into a product that anyone will buy or be successful with.
None of them can be considered a scam simply because none of them are life's essential needs. You don't NEED a pedal like you need clean drinking. You don't need a synth like you need health care. It's a free market economy, and as far as I know they haven't cornered the market in any anti-trust kinda way. If someone can make an equivalent product but cheaper, the market will regulate itself. Opening the pedal and trying to argue its cost by its components is hilarious. That's like decompiling a software and say "it's just all letters and numbers"
If you have a look at the Aspen Kraft youtube channel statistics you'll see that the channel has been stagnating in gaining both number of views and subscribers for quite awhile because of obviously boring content no one interested in much. But all of a sudden this wave of off-topic hype gave him a sharp surge in the channel activity so he's no longer talking on making music or whatever but promoting left-ish moral agenda.
@@cloudseer _"What’s political about it?"_ Everything is political in this world, my friend. So stay relaxed, please, cause it's normal. Even if it seems to you that you don't care of politics then the politics will take care of you anyways.
If hardware products seems unreasonably priced, as those do not have that much costlier parts in them, then what about software products? Another thing people tend to forget that consumer grade products which are sold in Large number of copies, Like PC or its parts, those can generate profit at Lower margin.
Espen has 95% great videos, he has done a few "flamethrower" videos, both literally and figuratively. I'm not sure if he got bored or just wanted to go viral. I recently took apart a Behringer Eurorack module clone of a classic Moog filter 904A ? I wanted to see some modern SMT pcb assembly and was quite impressed that for $29 bucks they provide a nice, complete module, that would cost me way more time and money to design and build or even reverse engineer and clone. I did take issue when the Oberheim OBx8, Moog One and newer Sequential synths came out with nosebleed price points. If you look under the hood on a Moog One, it's easy to see and justify the expense of producing, not necessarily it's value to a musician. I kinda view the flagship synths and the low-end Behringer pricings as outliers in the synth price/value world. What is something worth? Whatever the market is willing to pay for it. Is it a rip-off? Only if you buy it?
I have been in the electronics mfg field my whole life. The only synths that I feel are overpriced are Eurorack modules. And that's just because there is so much less manual labor involved than say building a full synth with keys and a metal chassis and multiple pcbs .
I work for a small European Eurorack manufacturer, and I'm pretty confident that it's impossible to make Eurorack modules any cheaper without sacrificing the well being of the people who work on them. The EU comes up with new taxes and additional bureaucratic burdens every year, the costs of living are only going up, as do the shipping costs etc. Not to mention the decreased buying power of our customers in the current economy, which makes the liquidity of our assets frustratingly small. While I agree that a flagship synth is a whole other matter entirely, each module still requires manual soldering, assembly, testing, quality control and potential repairs. At our scale all of this is basically done by hand, by multiple people. All of whom are getting paid, are insured and really like their free coffee. :) I myself wish that some of our products were cheaper, but the margins are so incredibly thin as it is, it's basically unachievable.
I think its entirely context dependent, and who is making what synth (or whatever). When you're already an established company, and you're not reinventing the wheel, and you're having your components made in bulk in China so you can assemble them at home, the cost goes way down. Not every synth out there, including some of my favorites, go through this long R&D/Prototype process. Sometimes you just know what you're going to do because you've done it before, and you have most of it done already. Essentially you're putting the same monkey in a different dress and getting it made cheap overseas to take advantage of commercial loopholes. Which is kinda dishonest when you're advertising your product as an American product. So it just depends. I won't be naming names, but I will say import records are not too hard to get a hold of.
I saw a thing about Warm Audio putting Austin, TX/USA on the front panel of their WA-1B, which is misleading since it's not really made there. (To be clear, I think Warm Audio is doing good work overall, I just think that's a bit dodgy).
great video that explains things more clearly! personally - i work for a major lighting console manufacturer. R&D on a new product can go into 6 figures as is. we do create original pcb's and spec from components upwards but trying to do better than intel / asus / ect on creating cpus. mobo's ect is just not going to happen - if we did then design our own computing boards the price of our products would skyrocket over what they already are. The other major benefit of using existing components is a future guarantee of parts, which are absolutely needed for warranty repairs ect. Add to all of this the cost of 50 people working to develop, manufacture, support and train users and suddenly the profits are much less than it would seem.
The simple maths that somebody should do is to take a high end synth, take the typical number of sales, and also detail the cost of designing and implementing it in the first place. You need to pay experts a decent wage to design the hardware, and to code the software. Using regular cpu's and Linux for much of the core makes things more affordable. I don't know what the numbers are, but it would be good if somebody who does writes something about what it costs and why synth prices need to be what they are.
Are manufacturers allowed to call their synthesizers "analog" if it contains no actual analog components and is instead something akin to a Raspberry Pi attached to a fancy keyboard and knobs? Or do they have to call it something like Kraft Singles, where instead of cheese it's 'cheez?' Like anna-log style synthesizer.
The one thing I WILL say is that it is a tad strange to open up an expensive synth and find a cheap off the shelf motherboard with ports on it not being used. I'm not sure why people are going out of their way to defend that part. I think if Teenage Engineering did this, people would tear them to shreds. The other thing is that Espen made a video with his opinions and many people are attacking him personally. I think THIS video is fair, and Alex Ball's comment is fair. Lotta people want to immediately attack someone personally if they disagree with his opinion, but the classier people like Alex set the example here. Oops - I'll probably get attacked now. For what it's worth, I agree 100% with Alex.
With regard to Teenage Engineering.... they are still in business. And that's great. There is nothing else quite like the OP-1. (I am not saying it's the best instrument ever, or anything clone - just that it's very unique) Their OP-Z product I think originally retailed for under $500, it's currently $429, and is massively capable, but they had manufacturing build quality issues with it - I would be very surprised if they didn't lose money on that whole line overall. Remember all the synth companies that no longer exist. TE's little OP series seem to do pretty well, but my guess after the OP-Z debacle is that they decided to not cut margins that close again. Consider Apple, who provide free end user phone support and free in store lessons and help to people with their devices. Pretty much no one does that. Apple can because they have huge margins in the gear they sell.
so the winning combination is to use older synthesizers still use your VS tees with your dogs use your audio sampling on your computer don't use old audio recording methods because you can simulate those in a computer it's only whenever you're doing performances if you wanna use of technologies that are self-contained that don't use a computer unless you have on the computer some fault tolerant way of guaranteeing your performance is gonna work but you'll notice more people these days use fewer devices whenever they're performing and they use self-contained Devices
I mean for instance people are not going to record midi to a computer than use that to control a bunch of synthesizers because you won't likely get the same state and the same patches and everything correctly what they have a tendency to do is win they get just the right sound that they want they record it directly to sample but they sample it and they pull onto a hard drive around to storage medium because they know they could get back to it and it won't have changed the day after but they won't be able to get back to the exact patch and in the combination of things they had before list somehow they were able to store it but people have it and see the air on the side safety and the safety is in recording the sample data not recording the actual notes that are played people like to have that because it's easier to manipulate but in terms of getting the exact sound you want to be able to record it and people are not gonna go back to analog for recording because it was more unreliable than digital is just the way that information is stored with digital but whenever it comes to a device that you expect to work in a certain way you're going to want to go back to an older technology where there was fewer states technology could fall into
you've probably noticed that the reason why people tend to use recording whenever they use computers is because computers have a tendency to crash please we're not gonna use the computer for the performance they are going to use the computer to store recordings maybe to control something else but they're going to use something external that is a dedicated device to do the performance and that's because computers are reliable they have a greater chance of having bugs in them because they don't have a simple city of states that's the reason why you always turn off the device and turn it back on whatever people got a problem is that you're resetting the state back to where it was predictable
Espen considering only Cost of Goods (COGS) as the metric on whether a synth is a “rip off” just goes to show the lack of business acumen. This coming from the same guy who wants people to sign up for his patreon for longer versions of his videos.
I think the reason why people are going back to the old analog synthesizers as they're sick of computers that misbehaver just do not perform very well they don't just perform the minute you turn them on like an old synthesizer
I do think flagship synth designers (and all hardware designers) should carefully consider product lifecycle. When people were making synths in 1980, they couldn’t imagine someone in 2025 would be cursing them for their choice of a leak-prone capacitor..not that they had much choice back then. These days though, if you put a cheapish commercial motherboard in an expensive synth, you should carefully consider the long-term repairability of that design choice. This is an item that may struggle to reach beyond a decade of service, and will eventually need to be reverse engineered and replaced completely. People have overcome much worse things to keep vintage synths alive, but it shouldn’t be necessary.
@@tommihommi1 The main problem that's going to come in is when that motherboard is no longer available. I doubt people will be able to just clone the drive and put it on any other motherboard with whatever CPU with whatever chipset and have it work. Given that they're dropping support for it, I think it would be most awesome if Sequential provided the code so others could update it to work with newer motherboards. They wouldn't even need to fully "open source" if from a license point of view -- they could put requirements that the code only be used for keeping Prophet X's alive.
There is no long term repairability today. Not sure why you're expecting it. This is a throw away society and has been for a long time. That's why they use cheap boards without considering long term repairability. We're a throw away and buy new society today. There's no reason to. They'll just throw it away and get another one anyway.
@@J.C... ayy.. you must not be familiar with the vintage synth community? Like I said, those were not expected to last much more than a decade, much less 40 or 50 years. But now that we’re here, expensive gear makers know better than to assume obsolescence, especially with the high priced units.
I had to unfollow him based on several recent posts and some frankly shocking pro-fascist comments - while also claiming he doesn’t do politics. Life is too short and he doesn’t add that much to the community/ conversation. Well that is just my 2 cents. I have learned so much more from this channel. Keep up the great work and thanks for sharing
Espen is just a bitter troll, he loves and thrives on the negative messages that get him attention, he purposely does what he does to enrage people. I used to support him, now I just avoid him at all costs, I know what he does and why he does it, and I know I don't have to support it so just move on.
I believe that Espen meant to use the English word “scam” as a close approximation to what he was trying to convey in his native language. Sometimes in other languages, there maybe only one word for something with multiple meanings and the opposite multiple words for one meaning. You all need to chill (aka relax), leave the man alone.
Anyone who has watched Dragons den knows how much stuff costs to make ans how it must turn a profit. A brand might make a total turn over of 1 million for product sold but they are not taking a 1 million profit after tax, paying shareholders and investors manufacturing costs, ads and marketing campaigns most of that 1 millions eaten up. The dragons make money by making small profits on many products, the more products to sell the more costs. None of this includes the 3rd party sellers such as Sweatwater who have to sell a product by a certain amount of time or the tax cost of stocking the item will get so high its better just to sell it off at a discounted price.
These trolls say and do anything that gets attention. And that is what this is. Then they come back and make an apology video and say “I am just some guy” and “we need to have a conversation” and “it’s just my opinion”. But it’s trash. The John Nathan Cordy guy makes a video almost every day that has almost no content. So he wakes up and starts a “controversy” because he wants to be a RUclips success. I’m not sure that responding to these people helps. It just broadcasts their name further.
after all it's very simple: you like the product - go and buy it. you don't like the product (or do not have the money) - you just don't buy it - or find something cheaper. that's it ;)
While I understand the outrage from some viewers, I agree with the notion that modern synthesizers could be more affordable. Many of these devices are essentially cheap computers running specialized software. The argument that research and development justify the high costs is valid, but as technology advances, much of this programming and design will likely be handled by AI, reducing costs significantly. As someone with experience in the AI field, I know what I'm talking about. It's not unreasonable to expect prices to reflect this evolution. Hopefully, this will make high-quality instruments more accessible to everyone. Additionally, I have no doubt that the Chinese will eventually dominate the market for microcontrollers and software solutions for synths while the rest of the world will just keep bla bla-ing on RUclips.
if you think from that perspective that you're expecting you're going to get a device that instantly starts to work every time that it's turned on and does misbehave then an in open it up and find out the reason it's misbehaving because it's not supposed to do that if it's real true analog synthesizers and find out there's a computer that's iota that misrepresentation that's fraudulent and he has every right to be upset over that because the real reason people are going back to the old synthesizers or trying to go to something that's more in a log that it is diesel is because digital equipment is not reliable
Problem is, if you're willing to pay it, why not charge what you see fit? If you buy the bricks to build a wall, let's say they're only $1. We used 200 bricks, but the bill came to $2,500. That includes; - Delivery Charges - Fuel and Transport - Cement Components - Days wage - Maintenance - Labourer - Miscellaneous People are always going to get a varied price, and an extremely wise man told me; we only get what they're willing to pay on the day. That's why prices fluctuate over time. R&D yes of course.. but isn't that life?
I don't want to defend TE, but I suspect that they are using a lot of very custom parts. Buying off the shelves parts is obviously much much cheaper than custom parts.. Anyhow, their stuff seems pricey for what it can do
Interesting video! (and its balanced and unbiased, too!) :-) I do enjoy Espen Kraft's videos, but let's be transparent about the fact that he makes money by posting videos... and videos that are controversial make more money than others. So, while he was publicly airing a tech support complaint, he was also trying to make a few dollars as well - so maybe he should back off on calling other folks scammers?) ;-)
Are there any synthesizers that are potentially overpriced? Yes, but they often have a very short career. If it's too expensive for what it is, then few people buy it and it quickly disappears. Are there any mythical instruments whose mere mention sells? Yes, but they're pretty rare. Are synthesists a little too conservative and devoted to legendary brands? Yes, but no more so than guitarists. In comparison, a Korg Monotron Delay is probably overpriced compared to a Volca Keys. But no one is forcing anyone to buy either of these instruments. The way RUclips works, which seems to value clash and confrontation in order to get clicks, is literally exhausting.
Espen's channel was one of the first synth channels I subscribed to, and then later unsubscribed because of his pedantic style. But to be fair, Espen has admitted that he was wrong about the Prophet's power supply. Maybe he will also retract his statement about the synthesizer scam? Having said this, I don't mind anyone pointing out that many synths are nothing but a mini pc with a a few interface cards and a keybed. That's the inconvenient truth. A pc disguising as a synth is indeed not a proper synth. No proprietary motherboard, no custom sound-generating chips, etc. is not what I want to spend my hard-earned cash on, for the simple reason that these machines don't last. If you get nothing more than a VST, a keybed and a few knobs, there's no point in buying it. Then you might as well buy a midi 2.0 keyboard controller and run everything via a DAW. If you buy a new Roland or Yamaha synth at least it comes with its own mainboard incl. sound chips, without additional pc motherboard and Windows/Linux. It will therefore last 40 years rather than 10 years. Korg, Sequential and others use combinations of a proprietary mainboard (wich is basically a pci card to translate the key presses, knob turnings etc.) and a pc motherboard, and that's the valid point Espen has been making. You can critize the way he said it, but I'm sure many will share his view.
I hold computer science degree with a minor in art I've been using computer since I was 13 the first computer I used was a commodore 64 actually was a PDP 11 and computers overtime I've become more and more unreliable and the reason for that is because of the complexity that goes into the computers these days that added complexity makes it more unreliable there's something has been said a lot in the past that anything over 12 lines of code it's got bugs in it that isn't true of electronics electronics Stockton they have bugs in them because the electronics are they they are very simple state computers..It's only whenever they incorporate microchips that they'll have complex states but old analog serve synthesizers don't have the complexity of a computer in there for eight or more reliable you know that when you turned them on you're going to get what you got the day before it's not gonna be any different and made the oscillators will be out of tune there may be a few parts that are going wonky but it isn't so complex that you can't fix computers are different
You pay for software and that has no hardware. As you say, it's more than the components. You're paying for the design process, prototyping, testing, manufacturing, and the marketing and distribution to get the product to you. Nobody works for free. Also, for some the brand does matter. It's an experience. If you don't care for the brand, buy a Behringer or a VST. Or just buy one instrument and learn it well. You don't need that many synths.
Does Espen not realize EVERYTHING is now just a cheap computer in a case (though the Samsung washer that makes calls is a bit much)? I also though when you mentioned driving a Lambo and flying in private planes, that Uli likely does that! And his stuff seems more in Espen's price range;) Having worked in manufacturing in Silicon Valley there is a lot that goes into manufacturing - I've always resented the software companies as they don't generally have to do capital expenses, etc. Did he not see how inflation spiked everywhere during the COVID pandemic due to how interconnected everything is. Maybe Sequential using an off-the-shelf MB is cheap, but, look what NASA has been doing with making fewer one offs for their robot explorers like also shaving off many hours of testing when using well know parts.
Hardware synths are overpriced period. You can just argue in comparison with what. To me it doesn't matter where the price tag comes from if the alternative is running a software synth that costs a lot less and is capable of measurably producing the same tones. When I look at the price of, say, Serum, and its capabilites, and something like Teenage Engineering's pocket operators - yeah. Besides, there is no denying that equipment aimed at pros gets a luxury price tag - if you wanna learn about it just ask the photographers about lights. Hell, even a ton of software for music production has the same inflated price tag. I personally have made purchases of hardware across different categories of equipment where I've found that, R&D or not, luxury or not, this just doesn't cost that, not for me, not for anyone reasonable. If he had called out assholes making barebones VSTs and selling them for hundreds of dollars - everyone would've been just as on board, and it doesn't matter if the work that went into them is genuine or not, or did those people spend too much time and effort in R&D phase. It's on them. We need to support people like Joep Vanlier/Saike/Airwindows (just off the top of my head) who code their entire libraries of plugins themselves and put it out for people to use free of charge. Not throw our money to companies like Marshall or Gibson or Yamaha just because they've invested into marketing. It's up to us to know the landscape of our craft and to know who's actually being the most impactful.
Espen calling any PCBs cheap is actually comical considering his videos use to be sponsored by PCBway 🤣 what was he pushing to his viewers? Cheap pcb boards?? I wonder why that is ?$$$
to be also fair, his PX was bought used. most likely one from the first batches sold. everyone knows that you don't buy the first batch of a new product because you run the risk of finding all the bugs right from the get go. i've had two PXs. i bought a PXL brand new, but sold it when the P10 was announced. it never gave me any problems while i had it. bought a regular PX late last year. once again new. hasn't given me any problems either.
Espen has made two videos about this. Your video is a dismissal, not a counter-argument. He held up that 7 dollar part for all to see. He might be wrong, but you need to be specific and make your case.
@@atarirob Who says he's accomplished? He's literally posting videos about product lines failing... The fact he's trying to make himself into a thing is so self serving. The Ross compressor clone he made was SO bad. The quality on those pedals was TRASH they felt like TOYS. I will NEVER buy a JHS pedal because of that. Returned both the comp and the phaser.
@@anotheryoutubed He's accomplished because at least one of his pedals are in every best seller category on Thomann, Andertons, Sweetwater, etc. and have been for a very long time. For a relatively small company, that is impressive and indicative of good business. Plus his RUclips account is a money making machine, and is probably where the majority of his consumer base learn about his products and feel compelled to buy them from. From a business standpoint, it's genius. It's a win-win for him. Now, there's a lot you could say about Josh personally that I'd probably agree with, but saying he's "bad at business" is absurd. It's just objectively incorrect. For the record, I've owned and returned a few JHS pedals. I agree with you - I didn't like the sound either and they felt overpriced for what they were. But that's just anecdotal - his pedals clearly work for a lot of people and the vast majority of people I've interacted with regarding JHS have had nothing but positive things to say about them.
@@atarirob Bro that means nothing. He sells cheap pedals, wow I'm surprised he's got a lot of sales. He's great at business yet he made a whole documentary about how he's saving ROSS but then didn't actually recreate the pedals to spec and they sucked, and it all folded because it was a big ol failure when he tried to sell pedals at the prices of other people. Yes I understand that the YT channel is to promote. That seems to be what Josh is all about, promoting himself and having everyone think of him as the bestest pedal collector ever. Who cares? Make good products and word of mouth will do the advertising for you.
@@anotheryoutubed I think you're having trouble separating your subjective opinion of Josh and his brand with the objective reality that he's made millions from his pedal venture. It clearly does mean something, seeing as his company is worth millions and he sells pedals by the pallet load - he is certainly not a bad businessman. You literally just said it yourself; "he gets lots of sales" - so can you see why saying something like that after insisting that "Josh is really bad at business" can come off as a little silly? Your gripes seem valid enough, but his ROSS line flopping doesn't mean squat - at the end of the day, he still has a multi-million dollar pedal company, and he's a good enough salesman to even make you buy two of his pedals, right?
Waldorf Quantum 6 Gs?!?!! TE ?!! Don’t get started on the 15 G Buchla. Many Euro Rack Modules And numerous boutique Synth and pedal companies are selling products for way too much money. Start at 599, 799, 1500 or 2500. While buying some components from Behringer or built overseas and mainly assembling locally. JHS products are on the cheaper end in comparison to many others. Take a look around. The Market is saturated, and the prices are too high. Espen is coming from the place of buying vintage/Used gear, or clones, is still by far a small fraction of the price of the compact Perfect Circuit approved products. Vintage or Used gear can be found for cheap, if you know where to look. SCAM may not be an appropriate word, but the market is leaving most people out of it. Companies will fail if things don’t change. There needs to be a range of prices to buy in.
I mean for instance people are not going to record midi to a computer than use that to control a bunch of synthesizers because you won't likely get the same state and the same patches and everything correctly what they have a tendency to do is win they get just the right sound that they want they record it directly to sample but they sample it and they pull onto a hard drive around to storage medium because they know they could get back to it and it won't have changed the day after but they won't be able to get back to the exact patch and in the combination of things they had before list somehow they were able to store it but people have it and see the air on the side safety and the safety is in recording the sample data not recording the actual notes that are played people like to have that because it's easier to manipulate but in terms of getting the exact sound you want to be able to record it and people are not gonna go back to analog for recording because it was more unreliable than digital is just the way that information is stored with digital but whenever it comes to a device that you expect to work in a certain way you're going to want to go back to an older technology where there was fewer states technology could fall into
you've probably noticed that the reason why people tend to use recording whenever they use computers is because computers have a tendency to crash please we're not gonna use the computer for the performance they are going to use the computer to store recordings maybe to control something else but they're going to use something external that is a dedicated device to do the performance and that's because computers are reliable they have a greater chance of having bugs in them because they don't have a simple city of states that's the reason why you always turn off the device and turn it back on whatever people got a problem is that you're resetting the state back to where it was predictable
Not meaning to take a side or get in a squabble, but it's quite an interesting thing to stop and consider for a moment: Business premises, business insurances, employee wages, national insurance, holiday pay, maternity pay, pension contributions, tools and equipment, office furniture, parts, VAT and other business taxes, import and export fees, interest payments on loans, R&D costs, heating, lighting, IT systems and servers, IT support, vehicle and shipping costs, accountancy fees, advertising and marketing costs, retailer fees and on and on and on.
The price of the components that make a product probably represent a small amount of the real cost of a single synth sat on a shelf.
That's just off the top of my head. Goodness only knows what else a company like Sequential has to consider and account for, but I guarantee they've worked that out accurately.
@@AlexBallMusic pinning this
I've worked in medical and aerospace low rate manufacturing for almost 20 years. People will be really complaining after China invades Taiwan and sanctions start pouring in. Consumers have no idea how good they have it now.
You got pinned, I would like to de-pin you, to do so would mean I would need to make a depinning device which means RnD.
1stly we would need to sit around the table and understand why we need to make said device, this would need also a tea lady, because you cannot brain storm without tea, that's a fact.
So far we have 4 employees and a tea lady adding to a costing for RnD, then factor in that this could take days, weeks, months, because we really need to understand why depinning a Ball is a worthy challenge.
After all this effort, we have decided to scrap this and move onto something more fruitful, which we now need to write off as a tax break.
There is a lesson to be learned, sometimes time investment in itself is a costly expenditure, and that cannot ever be recovered.
This is called NRBT, Non Recovery Ball Time.
HNY Alex. well summed up.
@@DankePlace 😂
It's soooo true. In the US, a large percentage of new small businesses fail, and a big reason for that is they don't anticipate all of the expenses. I briefly worked for the US Small Business Administration a really long time ago.
Just like the pedal video, this is a person who has never tried to do anything themselves. I've made my own pedals, I've built my own modular. I've tinkered with designs but to come up with unique and powerful instruments is an absolutely laborious task. Few have the capability. Now make them in volume...or maybe theyre too complex like the schmidt etc. They're are synth products out there made with passion instead of market goals. They cost the moon. They are also awesome and amazing things. When you see a synth thats mass market and expensive, many considerations were made to make it that cheap in the first place.
Sitting in your middle class middle age man cave full of gear and complaining about cost is such a bad look. I'd suggest a mirror but the guy literally films himself saying this stuff.
I totally get why bringing a product to market can be so expensive. This is why I am a DIYer, it is not as expensive and it’s also fun
And it's *tremendously* educational!
Woo6... BRAVO 👏👏!!
I love DIY, but I've found that I rarely save money - partially because I'm constantly trying to "do it right" in a way few makers would do (building some Pultecs right now... those transformer costs!)
@@TibbonI totally get it as well, yeah in the end you don’t save as much money as you hope unless you’re really careful to use every hacky trick and use mint cans for enclosures lol
Kraft admitted to me in a comment on the noose video that he's basically doing this for clicks. Reminds me of the line from Roger Waters' solo album Amused to Death: "Every man has his price, Bob... and yours was pretty low."
Yes. Espen is a bit of a tit. Very opinionated and he’s never wrong. Except most of the time he is. I’ve had a few heated debates with him in YT comments before in the past. I hear he’s sold most of his synths now. Maybe he’s going to concentrate on his singing voice instead.
@@mattjbatkinson1911 Sounds like a narcissist.
People really don't seem to intuit that material cost is never the only driver of product cost. As a single narrow example, I recently spent 3 full work weeks reading data sheets and testing various options to decide on the best color sensor IC to use for a product I'm designing for work. The one I settled on costs like $1.00 each in bulk. Assuming that the product cost should be the material cost is just another way of saying I shouldn't be paid for my work hours. Not to mention all the other costs like manufacturing and assembly, injection molds, shipping, storage, advertising, testing and certifications, and so much more.
Enjoy why it lasts. AI will do your testing in no time.
I think software (oh my the overhead on DAWs is nutty alone) and games are a good way to build some sort of intuition. Yeah duh, you need a blank cartridge, but maybe, just maybe, the 100 million USD games of today are expensive for a reason on not just because publishers want to squeeze their customers. I mean, they truly do, too, but you need to factor in a bunch of variables to arrive at a solid final prize - and synths, pedals, hardware - all of it - isn't that special either. Never mind businesses trying to hedge their odds against eventualities: how do you actually handle the very, very real possibility of a mass recall because crombling the morphlür dial to 9 ended up bricking your fancy new device or electrocuted a group of school kids during music class?
People only ever really see the final product, as it lies in their hands. If you were busy in any product design or manufacturing capacity, you know the massive tail of nonsense you have to deal with before you barely can get a prototype running, let alone go into full production.
@@dvamateur Actually the EEs might be safe from AI. Can't share links in comments, but if you feed the latest LLMs a schematic of 3 capacitors in parallel, but drawn in a counter-intuitive fashion, and prompt it to calculate the capacitance, it completely biffs the question and spits out an answer that is incorrect for both series and parallel capacitance. Maybe the pricier models are smarter, and maybe the more expensive specialized ones don't make this mistake, but beyond fun little hobby stuff any LLM Agent output would mandate scrutiny from an actual human engineer based on what I've seen so far.
@ddqd123 Well, to me personally, most of what AI spits out sounds like a dry consumer report article. But the majority of people like that. In an economic and political system when majority decides, you don't have anything to say.
People forget about the scale of the manufacturing, cost of running a business (Health insurance for employees???) and R&D + resellers must make a profit + various certifications and approvals.
Plus that this all assumes that everything goes to plan. Every synth maker occasionally makes one that just doesn't sell for one reason or the other, or one that breaks so fast that most repairs are on warranty, so they need to have a financial buffer that can absorb the loss.
Espen Kraft has become one of those poisoned YT content makers. He's taken his channel too seriously for his given subscriber base and niche channel topic. He's struggling against the people who have called him out for years as being just another YT music maker and he took it way too personally. He has lashed out at people before, including me, for pointing out his rather arrogant personality and behavior. His latest stunts at provoking the much bigger fish has turned his once great channel into rage bait and egocentric bullying.
"I'm Espen Kraft and you're not" is a particularly good example of him going psychotic in his struggles against negative comments. You know what, Espen Kraft? I'm glad I'm not Espen Kraft! I am tremendously happy to not be Espen Kraft because I would never want to be such a terrible personality like you have become. I unsubbed because I don't think there's room for such drama in the synth world and we don't need rage-baiting trolls stirring the pot like this.
he is just desparte for followers cause algorithm on RUclips make it harder and harder to monetize, it is all about cash :))
He always struck me as being quite insincere, like he was just in it for the money. Doing stuff for the money is great, and I respect it completely if you're honest about it and remain likable, but Espen seemingly always has a chip on his shoulder and comes across with a bad attitude, like he knows more about production, synthesis, etc., than his audience do. I don't hate the guy, but you're absolutely right to say he's arrogant and takes himself too seriously.
You should make a video - "Click-Bait RUclips Videos are a scam".
As someone who did the math of selling my synthesizer modules I challenge Espen Kraft to put a synthesizer out that is at a Behringer price point, he should just do it to prove his point - ah and he should show the world which hourly wage he got out of doing so. Don't get me wrong, Synths ARE expensive, especially compared to guitar pedals or whatever other mass product you can think of, but that is because of economy of scale (if you sell a 100 of something and not 10k or 100k pieces you will have to ask more per piece. Again - I came in thinking like Espen, did the math myself and realized that yeah: things are reasonably priced for the market circumstances, if not even a bit too cheap.
But that means in the world of synths a DIY approach is still worth it (in the world of guitar pedals it also is, but only if you're seeking a thing that isn't made by the big names). I co-run the Synthesizer-DIY course at HFBK Hamburg for half a decade now and we ask our students to just pay parts cost. If you ask for just parts cost (1x the BOM cost) you will be at a loss if a SINGLE person doesn't pay you and BEST CASE scenario is you earned nothing and worked for free. So obviously 1x the bom cost is not working outside academia.
Now the question is, what kind of multiple of the BOM cost is reasonable? My number (a mixture of gut feeling and research) is minimum 2.5x (unless you are spreading those numbers over multiple products and accept some will cost you, as explained in the JHS video). And the maximum is what you can get away with of course, but as a consumer I'd feel comfortable all the way up to 5x if the build quality,/service/manuals/etc are good.
Espen is a musician (and RUclipsr) so he has a direct relationship between his source of revenue and his costs. He has not run a business so he doesn't understand paying employees, having insurance, building out R&D labs/factories, utilities, servicing debt and paying all sorts of taxes. There's a video where he pulled out an all-in-one analog oscillator chip that used to sell for a few dollars and said synths were too expensive.
That said he has undeniable talent. But musicians are terrible to listen to for anything other than music
Ah yeah, I know the video you are referring to. I’ll probably be talking about that one on some other occasion.
I really like a lot of Espen’s earlier content.
Some* musicians
Deny
@@Lantertronics Same here. I wonder if the vagaries of the YT algorithm are driving him to be more controversial?
So true with the prototype vs. product. I made hundreds of prototypes over the years, but just every tenths goes of as a product. It's hard work to make a value good product.
Some of Espen's recent takes have been fairly reductive and ridiculous. So much so that I have stopped giving them the engagement these 'hot takes' are designed to manufacture
I really love the fact that Espen Kraft talks about overpriced synths and is using an overpriced macbook ;-) 0:11
This is just speculation on my part, but I suspect part of what allows Behringer to sell its synth products so affordably is that they can pad the profit margins on higher volume product lines, specifically their live sound offerings. So while a manufacturer like Sequential needs to make a decent profit on every Prophet (heh), Behringer can pad its margins on things like its WING digital mixers. If Behringer priced its synths like its live sound equipment, the UB-Xa might be priced at $3300 instead of $1200 - based on the understanding that the A&H SQ-6 digital mixer costs about as much as a Sequential OB-x8, and the Behringer Wing 48 costs $3300. This is a big-time apples-to-oranges comparison however, so take with a grain of salt.
A lot of people (with zero clue about the industry) refuse to believe this, but you’re exactly right. Behringer synth pricing is what you get when you have an extremely well tuned far east manufacturing base where any fixed costs, rent etc are paid for by the main equipment (PA etc) and you can do smaller runs at cost and sell them for a price that barely breaks even. Basically Behringer synths are Uli’s ”I want to create a legacy”-project and are (by Uli’s mandate) ”freeloading” on the rest of Behringer gear.
I listened to the Schreiber video without really watching the screen and I kept picturing the dad from “King of the Hill”. Great lecture, though
But the truth is that none of those critics counting money in somebody else's pocket are capable to come up with any competitive product they'd offer at such a low price they believe to exist.
Synthtube is unhinged lately. Make sure you’re not becoming unhinged, Dr. Lanterman.
I fear we will all soon be unhinged...
I'm hoping to make sure my comments are educational and constructive.
There is this odd feedback loop between creators and the audience, as mediated by the algorithm. My last video about an Espen Kraft video (on the Prophet X) maxed out at around 7,000 views, which is like 6 times the number of views most of my technical videos get.
My channel is deliberately not monetized through ad revenue, since I never want such concerns to effect how make videos. But as a creator it's frustrating to put a ton of work into a deep, detailed video and have few people click on it, when one made in an evening about the Latest Controversy gets a ton of attention.
@@Lantertronicsand yet, your videos are some of the ONLY ones in the space they’re in. Yes, they’re niche, but if you want to find videos about circuit design beyond complete amateur level, there aren’t many genuine articles on all of RUclips.
@@enginerdy Thank you for your kind words! :)
I have completely stopped watching all of the bigger synth content creators, they all strike me as weirdos these days. People take themselves way too seriously. Alex Ball is still incredible though, one of the best channels on here.
I was wondering why the boring AS3394 videos on my channel were getting clicks then I found Espen's last video. Took a deep breath and turned off the clickbait.
Thanks for the level-headed analysis. It's been sad to see Espen focusing all of this recent energy on this. I fear it's probably too late for him to have a change of heart, it seems like he's enjoying the negative attention and building a new personal image around controversy. I really hope I'm wrong and he puts this all behind him, but it feels like he's just now starting down a tragic path of negativity for attention.
_"It's been sad to see Espen focusing all of this recent energy on this."_
Because the boring content he produces has totally run out of ideas. If you have a look at his channel statistics you'll see the truth. So nothing can help to boost number of views as much as a good hype. But it's not gonna work for that long.
Are you putting Buchla synths on the same level as Sequential, Moog, Oberheim, Roland, Korg? I've never even seen a Buchla synth for sale anywhere, ever. I've never seen them outside of pictures in a book or online. I've never known anyone who ever owned one. Buchlas are so obscure they might as well not exist outside of West coast, college music labs.
You're looking in the wrong places.
Espen is both right and not. Because we do have examples like Korg's reissue of MS-20. MS20 Mini was, what, $500? And then an absolutely identical fullsize keys version arrives, which, apart from said keys, uses literally the same hardware - and suddenly they are asking an extra $1000 because sub $2000 was the going used price of the OG MS20 on eBay. So yes - there are examples of companies ripping us off. But stuff like a PC motherboard inside Prophet X is definitely not it.
Not sure I agree - The MS-20 FS is a special edition and doesn't replace their MS-20 mini reissue, so if you want a cheaper model Korg will happily sell you one. It also doesn't use the same hardware: Different PCBs, including the main PCB which has a filter switch, 1/4 jacks ("real" PCB mounted ones with non-cosmetic nuts like the mini) instead of 1/8th, bigger enclosure etc, and even on release it was cheaper than a vintage MS-20. They've definitely got some bigger margins on the full-sized but they also probably sell 50 to 100 MS-20 minis for every full-sized.
@@ddqd123 a bunch of jacks and a different PCB printed on a conveyor will never ever add up to 3x price increase.
Being of Norse heritage myself, I understand that trolls are part of the myths and folklore of the region. Most of us realize that we don’t have to emulate them on social media as ESPN did, though.
The thing is, it always depends. But when I look e.g. at prices of synths by Dreadbox which is a small company selling their original designs with the pricing of Moog (all products, except VST plugins) I surely think that Moog is ripping us off. For sure a small company should have higher marginal cost due to economics of scale.
Espen is a friend of mine. Thanks for making valid points that stick to substantive issues from the videos focusing on facts and evidence, all while maintaining a respectful tone. Cheers. ☀ P. S. Nice channel!
Thank you for your kind words!
I've watched Espen's channel for a while now and really like most of his content -- I just disagreed with this tangent he's on.
I un-friended Espen and don't follow him any more. He looks for attention by being sensational in a very un-helpful way.
Yeah, I really like a lot of his older content.
Some of his latest videos remind me of that intro to the Neil deGrasse Tyson Masterclass: "One of the great challenges in this world is knowing enough about a subject to think you're right, but not enough about the subject to know you're wrong."
Wow, it got really personal for you.
@ Life's too short for content like this.
Dell computer used to send our boards out to a contract manufacturer and offer some stupid amount as a price based on just the construction of the board... they didn't account for the thousands of man hours in the design of the software and hardware of the produce along with all the people in the company.. Sales, Marketing, Finance, HR, Warehousing... you name it.
The price isn't based on the component cost, it's based on the total cost of production + PROFIT.. to make new products.
So it's mainly development costs, not production?
Depends. Moog synths are now mostly manufactured on a conveyor in China, but the price didn't go down and InMusic's development costs were exactly $0, so they are getting an insane profit margin on these. It's a mix of everything - including company's plain greed as well.
Thanks for spreading facts and educating the community :) The true cost is WAY more than the component parts. Absolutely.
I am reminded of Fred Brooks, who observed (paraphrased from memory) that "software developers whip up some code in a weekend, then wonder why [Brooks's employer] IBM charges so much. It takes 10* the original estimate to produce a system which is usable by all customers, and 10* that to produce one which is correctly documented." I read this book 20 years ago, so I'm sure I got some of the specifics wrong here, but I think the overall point is correct. Just saying that you could assemble something doesn't mean that you've turned it into a product that anyone will buy or be successful with.
I want a damn new Seiko ds 310 additive synthesizer to be remade. Analog synths also cost way more.
None of them can be considered a scam simply because none of them are life's essential needs. You don't NEED a pedal like you need clean drinking. You don't need a synth like you need health care. It's a free market economy, and as far as I know they haven't cornered the market in any anti-trust kinda way. If someone can make an equivalent product but cheaper, the market will regulate itself.
Opening the pedal and trying to argue its cost by its components is hilarious. That's like decompiling a software and say "it's just all letters and numbers"
If you have a look at the Aspen Kraft youtube channel statistics you'll see that the channel has been stagnating in gaining both number of views and subscribers for quite awhile because of obviously boring content no one interested in much. But all of a sudden this wave of off-topic hype gave him a sharp surge in the channel activity so he's no longer talking on making music or whatever but promoting left-ish moral agenda.
What’s political about it?
Nothing is safe from being politicized 😞
@@cloudseer _"What’s political about it?"_
Everything is political in this world, my friend. So stay relaxed, please, cause it's normal. Even if it seems to you that you don't care of politics then the politics will take care of you anyways.
If hardware products seems unreasonably priced, as those do not have that much costlier parts in them, then what about software products?
Another thing people tend to forget that consumer grade products which are sold in Large number of copies, Like PC or its parts, those can generate profit at Lower margin.
Software costs $0 to produce one unit of. Therefore, it should be givn away for free. Obviously!
@cheater00 😜
Espen has 95% great videos, he has done a few "flamethrower" videos, both literally and figuratively. I'm not sure if he got bored or just wanted to go viral. I recently took apart a Behringer Eurorack module clone of a classic Moog filter 904A ? I wanted to see some modern SMT pcb assembly and was quite impressed that for $29 bucks they provide a nice, complete module, that would cost me way more time and money to design and build or even reverse engineer and clone. I did take issue when the Oberheim OBx8, Moog One and newer Sequential synths came out with nosebleed price points. If you look under the hood on a Moog One, it's easy to see and justify the expense of producing, not necessarily it's value to a musician. I kinda view the flagship synths and the low-end Behringer pricings as outliers in the synth price/value world. What is something worth? Whatever the market is willing to pay for it. Is it a rip-off? Only if you buy it?
I have been in the electronics mfg field my whole life. The only synths that I feel are overpriced are Eurorack modules. And that's just because there is so much less manual labor involved than say building a full synth with keys and a metal chassis and multiple pcbs .
I work for a small European Eurorack manufacturer, and I'm pretty confident that it's impossible to make Eurorack modules any cheaper without sacrificing the well being of the people who work on them. The EU comes up with new taxes and additional bureaucratic burdens every year, the costs of living are only going up, as do the shipping costs etc. Not to mention the decreased buying power of our customers in the current economy, which makes the liquidity of our assets frustratingly small.
While I agree that a flagship synth is a whole other matter entirely, each module still requires manual soldering, assembly, testing, quality control and potential repairs. At our scale all of this is basically done by hand, by multiple people. All of whom are getting paid, are insured and really like their free coffee. :)
I myself wish that some of our products were cheaper, but the margins are so incredibly thin as it is, it's basically unachievable.
Espen' is a bit uninformed and opinionated, what about R&D costs, manufacturing, tooling, marketing, post sales support etc etc
I think its entirely context dependent, and who is making what synth (or whatever). When you're already an established company, and you're not reinventing the wheel, and you're having your components made in bulk in China so you can assemble them at home, the cost goes way down. Not every synth out there, including some of my favorites, go through this long R&D/Prototype process. Sometimes you just know what you're going to do because you've done it before, and you have most of it done already. Essentially you're putting the same monkey in a different dress and getting it made cheap overseas to take advantage of commercial loopholes. Which is kinda dishonest when you're advertising your product as an American product.
So it just depends. I won't be naming names, but I will say import records are not too hard to get a hold of.
I saw a thing about Warm Audio putting Austin, TX/USA on the front panel of their WA-1B, which is misleading since it's not really made there. (To be clear, I think Warm Audio is doing good work overall, I just think that's a bit dodgy).
great video that explains things more clearly!
personally - i work for a major lighting console manufacturer. R&D on a new product can go into 6 figures as is. we do create original pcb's and spec from components upwards but trying to do better than intel / asus / ect on creating cpus. mobo's ect is just not going to happen - if we did then design our own computing boards the price of our products would skyrocket over what they already are. The other major benefit of using existing components is a future guarantee of parts, which are absolutely needed for warranty repairs ect.
Add to all of this the cost of 50 people working to develop, manufacture, support and train users and suddenly the profits are much less than it would seem.
The simple maths that somebody should do is to take a high end synth, take the typical number of sales, and also detail the cost of designing and implementing it in the first place. You need to pay experts a decent wage to design the hardware, and to code the software. Using regular cpu's and Linux for much of the core makes things more affordable. I don't know what the numbers are, but it would be good if somebody who does writes something about what it costs and why synth prices need to be what they are.
Espen is just being controversial for clicks. Seems to work.
Exactly...
:)
Are manufacturers allowed to call their synthesizers "analog" if it contains no actual analog components and is instead something akin to a Raspberry Pi attached to a fancy keyboard and knobs? Or do they have to call it something like Kraft Singles, where instead of cheese it's 'cheez?' Like anna-log style synthesizer.
Espen Kraft says, "no"!
The one thing I WILL say is that it is a tad strange to open up an expensive synth and find a cheap off the shelf motherboard with ports on it not being used. I'm not sure why people are going out of their way to defend that part. I think if Teenage Engineering did this, people would tear them to shreds. The other thing is that Espen made a video with his opinions and many people are attacking him personally. I think THIS video is fair, and Alex Ball's comment is fair. Lotta people want to immediately attack someone personally if they disagree with his opinion, but the classier people like Alex set the example here. Oops - I'll probably get attacked now. For what it's worth, I agree 100% with Alex.
With regard to Teenage Engineering.... they are still in business. And that's great. There is nothing else quite like the OP-1. (I am not saying it's the best instrument ever, or anything clone - just that it's very unique) Their OP-Z product I think originally retailed for under $500, it's currently $429, and is massively capable, but they had manufacturing build quality issues with it - I would be very surprised if they didn't lose money on that whole line overall. Remember all the synth companies that no longer exist. TE's little OP series seem to do pretty well, but my guess after the OP-Z debacle is that they decided to not cut margins that close again. Consider Apple, who provide free end user phone support and free in store lessons and help to people with their devices. Pretty much no one does that. Apple can because they have huge margins in the gear they sell.
so the winning combination is to use older synthesizers still use your VS tees with your dogs use your audio sampling on your computer don't use old audio recording methods because you can simulate those in a computer it's only whenever you're doing performances if you wanna use of technologies that are self-contained that don't use a computer unless you have on the computer some fault tolerant way of guaranteeing your performance is gonna work but you'll notice more people these days use fewer devices whenever they're performing and they use self-contained Devices
I mean for instance people are not going to record midi to a computer than use that to control a bunch of synthesizers because you won't likely get the same state and the same patches and everything correctly what they have a tendency to do is win they get just the right sound that they want they record it directly to sample but they sample it and they pull onto a hard drive around to storage medium because they know they could get back to it and it won't have changed the day after but they won't be able to get back to the exact patch and in the combination of things they had before list somehow they were able to store it but people have it and see the air on the side safety and the safety is in recording the sample data not recording the actual notes that are played people like to have that because it's easier to manipulate but in terms of getting the exact sound you want to be able to record it and people are not gonna go back to analog for recording because it was more unreliable than digital is just the way that information is stored with digital but whenever it comes to a device that you expect to work in a certain way you're going to want to go back to an older technology where there was fewer states technology could fall into
you've probably noticed that the reason why people tend to use recording whenever they use computers is because computers have a tendency to crash please we're not gonna use the computer for the performance they are going to use the computer to store recordings maybe to control something else but they're going to use something external that is a dedicated device to do the performance and that's because computers are reliable they have a greater chance of having bugs in them because they don't have a simple city of states that's the reason why you always turn off the device and turn it back on whatever people got a problem is that you're resetting the state back to where it was predictable
Espen considering only Cost of Goods (COGS) as the metric on whether a synth is a “rip off” just goes to show the lack of business acumen. This coming from the same guy who wants people to sign up for his patreon for longer versions of his videos.
I think the reason why people are going back to the old analog synthesizers as they're sick of computers that misbehaver just do not perform very well they don't just perform the minute you turn them on like an old synthesizer
I do think flagship synth designers (and all hardware designers) should carefully consider product lifecycle. When people were making synths in 1980, they couldn’t imagine someone in 2025 would be cursing them for their choice of a leak-prone capacitor..not that they had much choice back then.
These days though, if you put a cheapish commercial motherboard in an expensive synth, you should carefully consider the long-term repairability of that design choice.
This is an item that may struggle to reach beyond a decade of service, and will eventually need to be reverse engineered and replaced completely. People have overcome much worse things to keep vintage synths alive, but it shouldn’t be necessary.
Agreed. Sequential fell down there with the Prophet X.
putting an off the shelf commercial motherboard in something is *the best* thing you can do for repairability
@@tommihommi1 The main problem that's going to come in is when that motherboard is no longer available. I doubt people will be able to just clone the drive and put it on any other motherboard with whatever CPU with whatever chipset and have it work.
Given that they're dropping support for it, I think it would be most awesome if Sequential provided the code so others could update it to work with newer motherboards. They wouldn't even need to fully "open source" if from a license point of view -- they could put requirements that the code only be used for keeping Prophet X's alive.
There is no long term repairability today. Not sure why you're expecting it. This is a throw away society and has been for a long time.
That's why they use cheap boards without considering long term repairability. We're a throw away and buy new society today. There's no reason to. They'll just throw it away and get another one anyway.
@@J.C... ayy.. you must not be familiar with the vintage synth community? Like I said, those were not expected to last much more than a decade, much less 40 or 50 years.
But now that we’re here, expensive gear makers know better than to assume obsolescence, especially with the high priced units.
I had to unfollow him based on several recent posts and some frankly shocking pro-fascist comments - while also claiming he doesn’t do politics. Life is too short and he doesn’t add that much to the community/ conversation. Well that is just my 2 cents. I have learned so much more from this channel.
Keep up the great work and thanks for sharing
Espen is just a bitter troll, he loves and thrives on the negative messages that get him attention, he purposely does what he does to enrage people.
I used to support him, now I just avoid him at all costs, I know what he does and why he does it, and I know I don't have to support it so just move on.
There's an easy solution if you're thinking you're being ripped off. Make the things yourself!
I believe that Espen meant to use the English word “scam” as a close approximation to what he was trying to convey in his native language. Sometimes in other languages, there maybe only one word for something with multiple meanings and the opposite multiple words for one meaning. You all need to chill (aka relax), leave the man alone.
Anyone who has watched Dragons den knows how much stuff costs to make ans how it must turn a profit. A brand might make a total turn over of 1 million for product sold but they are not taking a 1 million profit after tax, paying shareholders and investors manufacturing costs, ads and marketing campaigns most of that 1 millions eaten up. The dragons make money by making small profits on many products, the more products to sell the more costs. None of this includes the 3rd party sellers such as Sweatwater who have to sell a product by a certain amount of time or the tax cost of stocking the item will get so high its better just to sell it off at a discounted price.
These trolls say and do anything that gets attention. And that is what this is. Then they come back and make an apology video and say “I am just some guy” and “we need to have a conversation” and “it’s just my opinion”. But it’s trash. The John Nathan Cordy guy makes a video almost every day that has almost no content. So he wakes up and starts a “controversy” because he wants to be a RUclips success. I’m not sure that responding to these people helps. It just broadcasts their name further.
after all it's very simple: you like the product - go and buy it. you don't like the product (or do not have the money) - you just don't buy it - or find something cheaper. that's it ;)
Espen Kraft either is really dumb (I doubt it) or really a troll. Either way, he does not give a healthy input for the community.
Its all like Marmite, i like actually used to like Marmite and still do but its way too expensive these days.
Seems like Alot of Manufactures Are Commenting against EK on Here.... Nice.😊
While I understand the outrage from some viewers, I agree with the notion that modern synthesizers could be more affordable. Many of these devices are essentially cheap computers running specialized software. The argument that research and development justify the high costs is valid, but as technology advances, much of this programming and design will likely be handled by AI, reducing costs significantly. As someone with experience in the AI field, I know what I'm talking about. It's not unreasonable to expect prices to reflect this evolution. Hopefully, this will make high-quality instruments more accessible to everyone. Additionally, I have no doubt that the Chinese will eventually dominate the market for microcontrollers and software solutions for synths while the rest of the world will just keep bla bla-ing on RUclips.
if you think from that perspective that you're expecting you're going to get a device that instantly starts to work every time that it's turned on and does misbehave then an in open it up and find out the reason it's misbehaving because it's not supposed to do that if it's real true analog synthesizers and find out there's a computer that's iota that misrepresentation that's fraudulent and he has every right to be upset over that because the real reason people are going back to the old synthesizers or trying to go to something that's more in a log that it is diesel is because digital equipment is not reliable
Problem is, if you're willing to pay it, why not charge what you see fit? If you buy the bricks to build a wall, let's say they're only $1. We used 200 bricks, but the bill came to $2,500. That includes;
- Delivery Charges
- Fuel and Transport
- Cement Components
- Days wage
- Maintenance
- Labourer
- Miscellaneous
People are always going to get a varied price, and an extremely wise man told me; we only get what they're willing to pay on the day. That's why prices fluctuate over time. R&D yes of course.. but isn't that life?
I don't want to defend TE, but I suspect that they are using a lot of very custom parts. Buying off the shelves parts is obviously much much cheaper than custom parts..
Anyhow, their stuff seems pricey for what it can do
Interesting video! (and its balanced and unbiased, too!) :-) I do enjoy Espen Kraft's videos, but let's be transparent about the fact that he makes money by posting videos... and videos that are controversial make more money than others. So, while he was publicly airing a tech support complaint, he was also trying to make a few dollars as well - so maybe he should back off on calling other folks scammers?) ;-)
Are there any synthesizers that are potentially overpriced? Yes, but they often have a very short career. If it's too expensive for what it is, then few people buy it and it quickly disappears.
Are there any mythical instruments whose mere mention sells? Yes, but they're pretty rare.
Are synthesists a little too conservative and devoted to legendary brands? Yes, but no more so than guitarists.
In comparison, a Korg Monotron Delay is probably overpriced compared to a Volca Keys. But no one is forcing anyone to buy either of these instruments.
The way RUclips works, which seems to value clash and confrontation in order to get clicks, is literally exhausting.
Espen's channel was one of the first synth channels I subscribed to, and then later unsubscribed because of his pedantic style.
But to be fair, Espen has admitted that he was wrong about the Prophet's power supply. Maybe he will also retract his statement about the synthesizer scam?
Having said this, I don't mind anyone pointing out that many synths are nothing but a mini pc with a a few interface cards and a keybed. That's the inconvenient truth.
A pc disguising as a synth is indeed not a proper synth. No proprietary motherboard, no custom sound-generating chips, etc. is not what I want to spend my hard-earned cash on, for the simple reason that these machines don't last. If you get nothing more than a VST, a keybed and a few knobs, there's no point in buying it. Then you might as well buy a midi 2.0 keyboard controller and run everything via a DAW.
If you buy a new Roland or Yamaha synth at least it comes with its own mainboard incl. sound chips, without additional pc motherboard and Windows/Linux. It will therefore last 40 years rather than 10 years. Korg, Sequential and others use combinations of a proprietary mainboard (wich is basically a pci card to translate the key presses, knob turnings etc.) and a pc motherboard, and that's the valid point Espen has been making. You can critize the way he said it, but I'm sure many will share his view.
I hold computer science degree with a minor in art I've been using computer since I was 13 the first computer I used was a commodore 64 actually was a PDP 11 and computers overtime I've become more and more unreliable and the reason for that is because of the complexity that goes into the computers these days that added complexity makes it more unreliable there's something has been said a lot in the past that anything over 12 lines of code it's got bugs in it that isn't true of electronics electronics Stockton they have bugs in them because the electronics are they they are very simple state computers..It's only whenever they incorporate microchips that they'll have complex states but old analog serve synthesizers don't have the complexity of a computer in there for eight or more reliable you know that when you turned them on you're going to get what you got the day before it's not gonna be any different and made the oscillators will be out of tune there may be a few parts that are going wonky but it isn't so complex that you can't fix computers are different
You pay for software and that has no hardware. As you say, it's more than the components. You're paying for the design process, prototyping, testing, manufacturing, and the marketing and distribution to get the product to you. Nobody works for free. Also, for some the brand does matter. It's an experience. If you don't care for the brand, buy a Behringer or a VST. Or just buy one instrument and learn it well. You don't need that many synths.
Also, I stopped following Josh and JHS because of the alleged manipulation of the used resale price of the Bad Monkey guitar pedal, look it up.
Behringer show what everyone is thinking. Kraft pinpoints this. Since everything anyone makes these days are litterally clones...
Does Espen not realize EVERYTHING is now just a cheap computer in a case (though the Samsung washer that makes calls is a bit much)? I also though when you mentioned driving a Lambo and flying in private planes, that Uli likely does that! And his stuff seems more in Espen's price range;)
Having worked in manufacturing in Silicon Valley there is a lot that goes into manufacturing - I've always resented the software companies as they don't generally have to do capital expenses, etc. Did he not see how inflation spiked everywhere during the COVID pandemic due to how interconnected everything is.
Maybe Sequential using an off-the-shelf MB is cheap, but, look what NASA has been doing with making fewer one offs for their robot explorers like also shaving off many hours of testing when using well know parts.
Hardware synths are overpriced period. You can just argue in comparison with what. To me it doesn't matter where the price tag comes from if the alternative is running a software synth that costs a lot less and is capable of measurably producing the same tones. When I look at the price of, say, Serum, and its capabilites, and something like Teenage Engineering's pocket operators - yeah.
Besides, there is no denying that equipment aimed at pros gets a luxury price tag - if you wanna learn about it just ask the photographers about lights. Hell, even a ton of software for music production has the same inflated price tag.
I personally have made purchases of hardware across different categories of equipment where I've found that, R&D or not, luxury or not, this just doesn't cost that, not for me, not for anyone reasonable.
If he had called out assholes making barebones VSTs and selling them for hundreds of dollars - everyone would've been just as on board, and it doesn't matter if the work that went into them is genuine or not, or did those people spend too much time and effort in R&D phase. It's on them.
We need to support people like Joep Vanlier/Saike/Airwindows (just off the top of my head) who code their entire libraries of plugins themselves and put it out for people to use free of charge. Not throw our money to companies like Marshall or Gibson or Yamaha just because they've invested into marketing. It's up to us to know the landscape of our craft and to know who's actually being the most impactful.
👍
Espen calling any PCBs cheap is actually comical considering his videos use to be sponsored by PCBway 🤣 what was he pushing to his viewers? Cheap pcb boards?? I wonder why that is ?$$$
To be fair to Mr Kraft, his Prophet X had an off the shelf ASRock motherboard.
Ah yeah, talk about that in an earlier video.
I would use a proven processing board too. They are very cheap considering the technology that goes into them.
ASRock? Don't worry, I'm sure for your case it can do Smooth Jazz as well.
to be also fair, his PX was bought used. most likely one from the first batches sold. everyone knows that you don't buy the first batch of a new product because you run the risk of finding all the bugs right from the get go. i've had two PXs. i bought a PXL brand new, but sold it when the P10 was announced. it never gave me any problems while i had it. bought a regular PX late last year. once again new. hasn't given me any problems either.
I blocked Espen's channel from my feed because of that video. It was total oversimplified at best and outright ignorance at worst.
Espin is all ego and just likes to hear himself talk.
Or just stop watching Espen Kraft, which I did five million years ago. Much easier solution.
Music software is where the real scam is, luckily there is an open source music software movement now.
Just out of curiosity, what software in particular do you consider to be a scam?
Espen has made two videos about this. Your video is a dismissal, not a counter-argument. He held up that 7 dollar part for all to see. He might be wrong, but you need to be specific and make your case.
Josh is really bad at business. His pedals suck.
How can he be bad at business if his pedals suck, yet he's one of the most acclaimed and successful boutique pedal manufacturers in the world?
@@atarirob Who says he's accomplished? He's literally posting videos about product lines failing... The fact he's trying to make himself into a thing is so self serving.
The Ross compressor clone he made was SO bad. The quality on those pedals was TRASH they felt like TOYS. I will NEVER buy a JHS pedal because of that. Returned both the comp and the phaser.
@@anotheryoutubed He's accomplished because at least one of his pedals are in every best seller category on Thomann, Andertons, Sweetwater, etc. and have been for a very long time. For a relatively small company, that is impressive and indicative of good business. Plus his RUclips account is a money making machine, and is probably where the majority of his consumer base learn about his products and feel compelled to buy them from. From a business standpoint, it's genius. It's a win-win for him.
Now, there's a lot you could say about Josh personally that I'd probably agree with, but saying he's "bad at business" is absurd. It's just objectively incorrect.
For the record, I've owned and returned a few JHS pedals. I agree with you - I didn't like the sound either and they felt overpriced for what they were. But that's just anecdotal - his pedals clearly work for a lot of people and the vast majority of people I've interacted with regarding JHS have had nothing but positive things to say about them.
@@atarirob Bro that means nothing. He sells cheap pedals, wow I'm surprised he's got a lot of sales.
He's great at business yet he made a whole documentary about how he's saving ROSS but then didn't actually recreate the pedals to spec and they sucked, and it all folded because it was a big ol failure when he tried to sell pedals at the prices of other people.
Yes I understand that the YT channel is to promote. That seems to be what Josh is all about, promoting himself and having everyone think of him as the bestest pedal collector ever. Who cares? Make good products and word of mouth will do the advertising for you.
@@anotheryoutubed I think you're having trouble separating your subjective opinion of Josh and his brand with the objective reality that he's made millions from his pedal venture.
It clearly does mean something, seeing as his company is worth millions and he sells pedals by the pallet load - he is certainly not a bad businessman. You literally just said it yourself; "he gets lots of sales" - so can you see why saying something like that after insisting that "Josh is really bad at business" can come off as a little silly?
Your gripes seem valid enough, but his ROSS line flopping doesn't mean squat - at the end of the day, he still has a multi-million dollar pedal company, and he's a good enough salesman to even make you buy two of his pedals, right?
Waldorf Quantum 6 Gs?!?!! TE ?!! Don’t get started on the 15 G Buchla. Many Euro Rack Modules And numerous boutique Synth and pedal companies are selling products for way too much money. Start at 599, 799, 1500 or 2500. While buying some components from Behringer or built overseas and mainly assembling locally. JHS products are on the cheaper end in comparison to many others. Take a look around. The Market is saturated, and the prices are too high. Espen is coming from the place of buying vintage/Used gear, or clones, is still by far a small fraction of the price of the compact Perfect Circuit approved products. Vintage or Used gear can be found for cheap, if you know where to look. SCAM may not be an appropriate word, but the market is leaving most people out of it. Companies will fail if things don’t change. There needs to be a range of prices to buy in.
I mean for instance people are not going to record midi to a computer than use that to control a bunch of synthesizers because you won't likely get the same state and the same patches and everything correctly what they have a tendency to do is win they get just the right sound that they want they record it directly to sample but they sample it and they pull onto a hard drive around to storage medium because they know they could get back to it and it won't have changed the day after but they won't be able to get back to the exact patch and in the combination of things they had before list somehow they were able to store it but people have it and see the air on the side safety and the safety is in recording the sample data not recording the actual notes that are played people like to have that because it's easier to manipulate but in terms of getting the exact sound you want to be able to record it and people are not gonna go back to analog for recording because it was more unreliable than digital is just the way that information is stored with digital but whenever it comes to a device that you expect to work in a certain way you're going to want to go back to an older technology where there was fewer states technology could fall into
you've probably noticed that the reason why people tend to use recording whenever they use computers is because computers have a tendency to crash please we're not gonna use the computer for the performance they are going to use the computer to store recordings maybe to control something else but they're going to use something external that is a dedicated device to do the performance and that's because computers are reliable they have a greater chance of having bugs in them because they don't have a simple city of states that's the reason why you always turn off the device and turn it back on whatever people got a problem is that you're resetting the state back to where it was predictable