Dylan Talks Tone Ep #20 Shielding... How it affects your guitar tone #40
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- Опубликовано: 14 окт 2024
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A while back when installing some 62 RI pups in my ProTone Strat I found it was noisy as hell.
Went back in with the intent of enclosing every electrical part that wasn't exposed to the outside in a metal "box." Tried HVAC tape and it didn't work very well at all. Went back in again with copper tape everywhere under the pick guard and cavity, made a star ground where all internal grounds tied in to the Vol pot. Claw and copper tape were also grounded to the pot. Also replaced the lead-in from the input jack with RG-174 shielded cable soldering the braid to the Vol pot and it's t's as close to dead quiet in every position as it can be. It worked so well I did it to my US Strat.
First metion of star grounding anywhere in any of these videos. I installed 1/8" qluminum plates (from an old frying pan) under the pickups and mounted the pickups with machine screws. This completely shields the back of the pickup. I ran all grounds to a screw driven into the aluminum shielding foil. I put this screw next to the outout jack and ran a wire to the ground side of the jack. One of the best things to do for tone and shielding is to use hukbuckers. I have all humbuckers in my basses.
I actually bought the copper tape and did my whole Tele cavity and pickguard. Soldered the tape strips to each other and all that, verified continuity with DMM the whole way, it worked REALLY well. My Tele has regular passive pickups and has very little hum. My pedalboard makes more noise than my guitar does. Yes, shielding it all was a bit of a hassle. But it's totally worth it because you only need to do it once and then you have a lifetime of benefit from it.
I did all 4 of my guitars with copper foil tape in the cavitys. Each with 1/8th over lap and then solder each overlap and it makes a huge difference. I run a small ground wire, that's soldered to each cavity. All my grounds are common on each guitar. It's a huge pain in the ass , but well worth it! I've done my Kramer Nightswan, Hamer Californian, Epiphone Zakk Wylde model and Gibson Les Paul. All worked out perfectly.
Great video's!
I think your common ground made the real difference not the shielding. Shield is suppose to block RF, RF is in the atmosphere not inside your guitar cavity. In theory the RF is outside and so are your strings and pickup poles so unless you keep your guitar is in a Faraday cage you won’t be able to block the RF signal. I think noise is from 60 cycle from your input signal which comes from your AC outlet. I never tried but an amp that runs on batteries should, in theory eliminate most of the noise.
@@bluwng yeah that's not happening with 3 ams lol
Back in 67 I had a Fender Mustang w/fuzz face into a Deluxe reverb,man I could've had my own radio station! Good video! Like your work,keep on making those pickups!
Is “bitchen” actually you last name? 😂
Keep rockin man and stay horny
Great info, concise explanations, and a whiteboard. Learning at it's best.
Yep in my case it was the dimmer switch in my guitar room, I just changed it over to a standard light switch and the buzzing was gone so I didn't need to shield it but I did anyway because I like messing around with guitars .
I hear voices all the time, EXCEPT when I’m playing guitar.
I hear voices and they all speak Korean. I'm totally lost.
Good call using a separate ground wire. It is a cardinal rule of all low noise electronic design: ground and signal should never share a conductor.
New subscriber, here! I shielded my inexpensive S-style guitar and it was so quiet whwn I got done, I thought I broke something while It was apart 🤣 Nope, everything was intact. Its just that quiet, now. I *love* it. It makes being a new guy so much more enjoyable. I can actually stand to hold the guitar without playing something, now. It used to be so bad, I hated even turning it on. No worrying about rolling off the volume when I'm not playing, either, unless I'm using OD, which isn't often at this point 😄
One thing I didn't check was continuity between all of the pieces of aluminum foil ducting tape that I used. I'll have to remember to check it next time I have the strings off.
Totally different view on the faraday cage aspect. It's awesome to see your more recent videos with better information.
I just had an issue with a build... No matter what pickup I installed, it was dull and dark. Finally discovered that the Jack was
touching the shielding paint inside the hole. When I pulled the jack away from the hole, guitar sprang to life! I sanded out the shielding paint a bit, then wrapped the jack in electrical tape, good to go. Never had this happen before, just thought I'd share.
So, i did shield my guitar once and i did all these steps expect shielding the pickups because i never seen it before, and shielded everything else with high quality conductive aluminum tape and did make sure all three parts (pickups cavity, control cavity and back cavity) are connected using a multimeter, and in the end i had the same level of noise and hum as before !!! I check many times, and it did not remove the noise, but my pickups sounded a bit dull that's all 🤔
Any luck?
Super interesting! Your explanation of why each cage needs a ground also explains why my 2018 American Pro Strat came with TWO ground wires. I probably should replace that second one. I swapped my pickups, and removed the one going to the pickup cavity's shielding paint.
I had a 💡moment after you explained that Faraday story!! Now I firmly believe that this will be worth the job.
I just binge-watched many of your videos Dylan, and I must say you're channel is just great!
10:21 would you make a separate video on how to exactly mod (ground in this case) the PUs so that it possibly results in less noise?
I think many people would be interested in that.
Thank you
Wow I learned a lot from this video… thank you for spreading your knowledge!!!
Thank you for taking the time to explain this subject
Very informative, thanks. Shielding paint is the way to go. Much faster and easier. Q-tips make handy paint brushes for wiring tunnels.
I love shielding with aluminium tape. It's thinner, easier to work with, can be bent to any shape
I rehersed under i movie theater many years ago. If I pointed the guitar neck (antenna) the wrong way it picked up voices and music from the theatre. Shielding is such a great subject to talk about!
Thanks for all your help this is being super informative
Very interesting. My question is, are you also a ham radio operator? This is information that we had to learn to pass our tests. It is great to apply it to something else.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge. I have a G&L SC-3 with MFD pickups. This is my second SC-3. My first SC-3 was black, with stock locking tuners. It was the cleanest guitar I have ever played, but someone walked into and out of church with it. The SC-3 that I replaced it with has a bit more hum noise. The pickups seem to have more output, but it is not as clean as my first G&L. I was considering shielding the guitar with shielding paint, but after watching this, I will likely invest in a noise gate stomp box. Thank you for saving me an afternoon that would not have given me the results I was hoping for. I would like to know how to clean the tone up a little.
When I use the copper tape 4 aluminum tape instead of folding the corners over or edges over I just make sure that the layers cover 100% And overlap a little bit and where they overlap I will take my soldering iron add rub it along that section of it pushing it in at some points just making sure I have good contact and continuity that seems to work pretty well for me
Shielding is a very effective way of reducing annoying guitar RFI hum. Both Gibson & Fender used brass & aluminum shielding in a lot of their guitars in the '60's & '70's. The added capacitance bleeds off a very tiny bit of the high end, which may or may not be a good thing. If you want to regain the high end loss with a shielded guitar, a no load tone pot is an option.
Hi Dylan, Could you please weigh-in on the subject of shielding paint's degradation over time? About 4-5 years ago, I opted for that method vs. the more masochistic method of dealing with razor sharp copper foil. I did a very thorough and patient job with the paint and ended up with single digit ohm readings throughout. I later saw info shared by some "L.A. luthiers-to-the-stars" guys who had abandoned the paint method because the effect had degraded over time. They had pro-players turning up 5-6 years later, complaining of noise. When they tested these guitars, sure enough, they were getting readings in the medium to high double digits. Well, after getting more noise than I had in the past, I opened my guitar back up and reread the ohms. They had gone from low single digits to around 60 ohms. Still not wanting hands covered in copper cuts, I carefully added a couple more coats of shield paint. Any thoughts, Dylan?
Thanks, nice job. Very educational.
hi, I've been following your channel recently and I like it a lot. I have the 2 questione: on the strat should I also shield the springs compartment? Why do you think fender doesn't shield even its most expensive guitars?thanks
Hey man. Great videos. I've just started playing an old japanese J-style bass from the 1970's. Totally unshielded and it drives me mad, so I've bought a loop of pre-wired CTS pots to put on it and a roll of copper tape. So I'm right on what you're saying. The thing is, the tone I do get from the bass is incredible. It's a great instrument. Question is though, if I get myself a set of new, shielded, hum cancelling pickups, I guess I'm running the risk of losing the amazing tone the thing produces already. Also there's the possibility that the slugs won't line up. Is that something I should be concerned about or, with modern pickups, might I be surprised at the sound quality?
these are some awesome tips! Many thanks!
I 'd swear to God when I shield my Jackson King V (famous for bad shielding) with copper tape, I have lost high end. Is there a proper electronically explanation for this? I am sure its high end and not only "noise free" change in the sound.
you could have shorted a component. technically, adding that metal seperated by space, it is a capacitor. could be imagining it also. its very difficult to do proper tests of before and after. ive caught myself imagining things plenty of times. hope that helps.
06:52 - Is this step necessary?
Think of a strat as having 2 cavities: Pickup cavity….and control cavity.
If each of those cavities is lined with copper shield (extending up and around the rim of each cavity), then wouldn’t the copper shield on the underside of the pickguard connect the 2 cavities?
Cool vid….still deciding between paint and foil.
For things like wiring the jack, I find it easier to use shielded wire than to shield the jack wire drilling and all that.
Hi Dylan, I really need your help and advice. Today I did some work on my Epiphone Les Paul and there's been a drastic change in sound, but let me explain. I changed the bridge, string gauge, nut and installed a String Butler (so naturally there's plenty there to affect tone, I accept that). But I also added copper shielding tape to EVERY cavity of the Guitar; including the Electronics cavity, switch cavity, both cavity covers (inside) and pickup cavity. The sound I have now is fine, but it sounds like someone's put a brickwall limiter on it, and (particularly on certain frequencies). I've changed nothing on my amp and there's no compressor/limiter in the chain. Is there anything in the copper shielding I did that could cause this? On the plus side, no interference from lighting or that earth buzz sound you get when you aren't touching anything metal on the Guitar anymore. But it's that brickwall limiter sound that's bothering me.
Hey Dylan, excellent video, as one would expect!
Just wonder what are your thoughts regarding shielded connector wires as an alternative to shielding the wire tunnel that would extend from the control cavity to the bridge, pickups or jack (if they are not in the control cavity).
Any good?
Any specific way I should use them? (Obviously the braided conductive exterior should be connected to the shielded walls of the control cavity, but how should they be at their terminal extent? Should both parts of the wire (the hot core and the shielded exterior) touch the the component (i.e. the bridge) or should just the hot part?
Thanks in advance!
Honestly, the rf interference is being caught by the pickups. The main reason to shield the controls is not for the controls themselves, but to add to the surface area of the shielding for the pickups.
Great video thanks. so useful and easily explained ! I understand that the shielding we add absorbe unwanted EMI instead of the pick-ups, and Send them straight to the ground.
now, WITHOUT the extra shielding, and assuming that all electronic parts in the guitar are well grounded, and that the amp is properly connected to the Earth , I can't figure out why the humming stops when we touch the strings. what happens in the circuitry When We Touch a metal part of the guitare ?
Emi are still there, and "heard" by the unshielded part of the circuit that acts like an antenna, but why are they no longer transmitted to the amp. Do they simply dissipate in our body ?
Fabien Legendre The human body is a virtual ground. That’s how touch sensitive electronics work - your touch creates a ground at that point and it can be detected - some elevator call buttons are like that.
Here’s an idea.
Wrapping up a pickup in thin copper mesh. I’ve seen little rolls of it online. Could it work as a 360 degree Faraday cage?
Can you do a video about gibson 50's wiring vs standard modern wiring? I understand that it changes the interaction between the volume and tone knob. The main thing i wanna know is if it makes the guitar sound brighter or not with all knobs on 10.
I can tell you this, when you have No Pots at all you have a much brighter sound. So you start from there , 500K pots have less damping 1Meg even less damping of higher mid frequencies = more brighter. I ripped the stock Steel 2 wire out of my 70's Les Paul's and installed high end sheilded copper coax . It was a noticeable improvement , mostly from the Long Run of wire from the Toggle Switch to Control Cavity.
Put in a push-pull pot for the tone so you can pull the knob and break the connection to the tone circuit entirely. That will be even brighter than everything at 10, because even at 500KΩ or 1MΩ, there is still a slight damping of the high end. The only wiring you would have to change is to send the tone circuit signal through the pot AND the switch in series, instead of just through the pot.
As a nice side effect, you can then crank the treble without losing your settings by pulling the knob, and go back to the way it was before by pushing it back in.
The voices told me to listen to Dylan....
Shielded a partscaster superstrat with conductive paint and everything crapped out. :-(
After some investigation the volume pot hot lug was grounding. A piece of plastic food packaging salvaged from the recycling and cut to the shape of the control cavity saved the day.
Andy Mellor I know it’s a bit of work if you don’t solder, but all lug connections - pots, switches, jack - can benefit from heat shrink tubing when installing.
Hi Dylan, nice tutorials! I have a question, how can I check with a digital multimeter when for instance I change a pickup, if I have made a good connection? I mean, how should I verify the output of the pickup is 100% coming to the amp, checking and avoiding a bad soldering job? Thank
You can use shielded wire when you run through those holes. only ground one end of the shielding wire though otherwise you'll get a ground Loop
Uh... you cant get a ground loop in a passive guitar.
I USED SHIELDING PAINT IN MY CONTROL CAVITY AND EVEN IN THE OUTPUT JACK HOLE, I WASN'T GETTING ANY SOUND FROM THE PICKUPS AND THE VOLUME AND TONE WERE BOTH ACTING AS WEAK VOLUMES WHEN IT WOULD KICKIN. I REMOVED THE SHIELDING FROM THE OUTPUT JACK HOLE AND THE PICKUPS SOUNDED AWESOME RIGHT AWAY. I'M STILL HAVING ISSUES WITH THE POTS THOUGH, 2 HUMBUCKERS, 1 VOLUME, 1 TONE, 3 WAY TOGGLE. I'VE USED EVERY SCHEMATIC ON THE INTERNET AND NONE OF THEM WORK BOTH OF THE POTS ONLY WORK AS VOLUME. ALL OF THE COMPONENTS ARE GOOD I TESTED THEM WITH MY VOLTMETER I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IT COULD BE BUT ITS REALLY LAME. MAKES ME WONDER WHY THERE ARE SO MANY DIFFERENT SCHEMATICS FOR THIS CIRCUIT BUT NONE WORK. I'VE BUILT A BUNCH OF GUITARS AND NEVER HAD THIS ISSUE, ,I USUALLY USE A BLADE STYLE 3 OR 5 WAY SWITCH THOUGH. AAARRRRGH.
Writing in all caps is painful for the reader
I never had one so I must ask, How thick and what metal did Gibson use in the Norlin era shielding cans? More specifically the ones that didn't have a 'ground' wire connected to the player via the bridge and strings.
Why the guitars don't come out of the factory already shielded ?
That would save a lot of work and time !
I think the expensive ones or special made are. i never had 1000$ to check one's cavity though...
I just did a Fender Strat & it had No shielding except for a bit over the pots. I shielded the whole thing it went from hum city to near dead quite on a high gain amp silent on clean amps.
You pretty well answered your own question ... By companies NOT doing that, it saves THEM a lot of work and time, thus maximizing profit.
I hear voices in my head. It says: have Dylan build me a set of pick ups 😆
I have a humbucker SG and there is absolutely no need for shielding. Only my Stratocaster types are humming like a strange bird in the early morning!! 🐦😅🎸🎼⚡⚡⚡
Question...I play keys as well as guitar. If I stand close to my keys while holding a guitar, I get a lot of electrical hum from the keys. Will shielding eliminate this?
Interesting regarding masking of tones. Thanks.
Hi Dylan.
I'm replacing pickups in a Les Paul w Seymours.
Do I need to paint the cavity w shielding paint or is the Custom Shop adequate. Thanks, G.
How and where do you ground the shielded pickguard? To what? In a strat....
cool video. please keep it up
Hi Dylan! Does it mean after shielding all capacities, the surface of shielding has to be wired to the volume knob? Thank you so much!
Kai Qian not necessarily. Any ground point.
I got copper tape with conductive adhesive and I must have done something wrong because my HSH strat is noisy as hell even in humbucker mode
Good video
After doing all of this shielding would it be worth while to go over some sections with masking tape in areas where pots and switches might make unwanted contact with the shielding?
I line the ports for my pots and switches with electrical tape and a bit int the body. This prevents them from grounding accidentally. Also, if your pickups go deep into the body you ca nrun the risk of them touching the shielding. I put electrical tape under all my pickups as well.
I wouldn't do this-- but in theory wouldn't duct tape work too? It IS in fact electrically conductive. ?
I need to do this to my squier bass vi. I have copper tape, also some copper foil. Does the copper tape take solder? Is soldering the connection seams possible or advantageous?
I mean, I've never had issues with connectivity without soldering them but yes copper takes solder very well. Give it a go man, one evening and 1 or 2 hours of work - you'll be very happy.
Great video, thank you!
Please talk about filtertrons
Hello! Very interesting stuff, thank you for sharing! My strat pick up the radio, i shielded it - it becomes better and a lot less noisy, but radio is still there. It drives me crazy, what can be the reason?
I also noticed that i can't here any difference, when i touches the strings or trem
The pickup coils are outside the Faraday Cage !!
I liv n an old farm house. Not all the time but some , b playin a radio station come thru my amp but only if a pedal is on. Theres no 60 cyl hum or buzzing. Just radio sta low volume. And its 3 states away. And im not movin. Whats that ?
How about paint the insides of your pickup covers?
Did it today (with copper tape) to my US Strat.
Is the shielding on the input jack necessary to shield a strat? I would like to skip this part, but I don't know if it is a MUST. Please help. I have hot-rail pickups on it. Thanks.
One Guitar Hero it’s not required.
excellent!!!
I hear voices. The voices are telling me to click that LIKE button.
the comparison i can make is like using contact cleaner on a pot. it make the guitar sound shiny,i do it on all my guitars
Opinion on masking the inside of the single coil pickup cover with copper foil?
hiberNative I don’t think it makes a huge difference, but give it a try.
Would it work with a wah pedal catching RF signal? Thks
Great video!
Does anybody think lining the insides of P90 pickup covers with copper foil would be helpful?
Single coil pickup: why instead of having a piece of copper to solder on the outside of the coil not having some conductive paint on the inside of the pickup cover (strat style)? Easier to ground and no risk to damage the pickup... thanks me later
Thanks man!
does a normal cavity shield mess up with the magnetic fiel of the pickup? if so does the sound of the pickups change?
No, copper isn't magnetic
SweBass Watch our video on Eddy Currents to answer that question.... even non magnetic metals CAN have an effect. Watch the cool demonstration i do with a magnet and aluminum
+DylanPickups Thanks for clearing that up!
Want to know if you could make me a wiring diagram for a special strat mod. Can i email you?
Dustin MidNyte Driscoll you bet. I’ll do what I can
@@DylanTalksTone whats your email? Or should i post it here? I Dont want to take the thread off topic
1st, love your vids. They're a huge help. Im trying to wire a strat with 2 single coils, and 1 rail in the bridge, with 1 push pull master volume, and 1 tone. I'll add a cap later. But could use a diagram from someone better at it than me. Many thanks
Just a note, not sure the brand of rail. And the push pull volume is a bourns 500k dpdt. Also, do i need a 250k tone or 500k for this? Thanks
Uh, just for fun and looks I put copper shielded tape around my stratocaster sss pickup set and now it sounds like a country guitar. Twangy!
Except that 60 cycle is much longer in waveform so that doesn’t apply
Just so you know, the paint is far less effective than the copper tape. SEVERAL coats are required for the same level of performance to be reached. There is waaaayy more resistance in the paints
Soldering to copper tape is really easy because it has such low thermal mass.
Hi there. Is the cavity shield connected to the wiring ground?
Yes.
thanks man.
You’re wrong about slug tape it’s fine better than paint that’s for sure
Should I shield the floyd rose springs cavity too? Thanks!
No. Because it is nothing shield there.
Floyd rose and all metal parts include strings and tuners connected to the ground.
Demetrius Silva damp your spring coils with foam or put a shoe lace inside the springs.it helps remove the noise.
+william de guzman
Owners of buckling spring keyboards (the typing kind, not the musical kind) put dental floss in the springs to dampen the >PING
I always find a shielded guitar sounds... tinny
LOL
Whether shielding affects tone or not, crappy noise definitely affects tone.
My guitar hums only when I tilt it, the more horizontal guitar is (pickups facing ceiling or floor), the more hum it produces. Its no outside electrical interference problem, I have checked by changing room/cables/power sockets etc after switching off all wifi and mobile signals. What is this?
talk about me n my 3sec drawing of the head stock.... lolololol
643 TIMES...The cap came of and was put back on the marker.
so if i have a guitar without any kind of pickguard, it can't be shielded?
+cesar augusto montoya cardona you can still shield the cavity around the pickup and ground it with good results
+DylanPickups thanks dylan, your videos are great!
The cavity with electronics usually shielded from factory. Pickups wires shielded from factory as well.
It is nothing to shield even if you have cheapest ibanez. It is already done.
If it is DIY project - use shielded wires.
So you're basically making a tin foil hat for your pickups, so the radio-illuminati cannot get to them.
It's called a Faraday Cage.
Hi! is-it possible to shield the pickup cover on a single coil?
How about dummy coils?
When I plug my fuzz into my amp and touch the end of the cable to anything metal I get a really distorted football radio station and you can hear voices……
What about if you can hear people talking inside your amp when it's turned off and there isn't a guitar plugged in, would shielding help then, like what if I shield my brain by wearing a hat made from tin foil? I already wear a suit made from tin foil so I guess the hat can't do any harm?
Thank you for creating more repair business for me.
how to create a ground loop
+Davide Sandri Care to explain what you mean? Thanks.
If your guitar is properly shielded and you still hear voices... you'd better consult!
The voices told me you are just jealous you cant hear them too
If you ever in your life feel like guitars aren't your thing, you can always make a career as a street artist
?
DylanTalksTone just kidding (i was making fun of your drawing skills). Very good and helpful video!
Check out his latest videos. He no longer recommends doing this.
As a demonstration aid I would suggest an actual guitar as your coggled board and marker system is unclear. I switched off when you said SODDER . In English the letter L is sounded !! You can say sodder all you want but don't think that it's English !!
Well you are a fun person to know lol!!!! (Extreme sarcasm)
Good riddance...
go lolli a banger