+RpgDestiny I'm sure you have your reasons but it's probably best you keep them to yourself. Carrier's credentials and knowledge are impeccable so I'm guessing you just don't like him as a person?
Raoul Borans Pretty much. I mean, asking for girlfriends on your blog is kind of pathetic. He also has the mentality that "if you're not with me, you're against me." So yeah, I don't think he's a great person.
macsporan I have nothing against his argument. I find your remark about his respectfulness particularly outrageous. The man is an ideologue who can't not see left or right. No one is afraid of this man. He makes good arguments but he's so pathetic I'm afraid no one takes him seriously.
+RpgDestiny Can you give some reasons why you think Carrier is an ideologue not being able to see left or right (do you mean left right politically or some other figurative sense of the word)? Other than his personal sexual preferences, which make you uncomfortable, in what way do you think he is pathetic? If you think his arguments are good, why even bother to try to discredit him by focusing on everything other than his arguments? That being said, I don't think he is the one who should be called pathetic.
Everyone needs to watch this video. Its mind boggling to me that people don't see the holes and fallacies and the absolute lack of evidence for the existence of Jesus
+itsasin1969 Diego agrees with you. He wrote 2 sentences... was that too much to read? Or maybe you're just backing up his assertion, which seems weird to do as a reply to his comment instead of as a reply to the video. In any case, the caps-locked "ZERO"s set the wrong tone.
+Diego Ruiz I think it's pretty fair to say that the cat's out of the bag nowadays. But I don't think it's _necessarily_ either a boo or hooray fact either for atheists or for Christians. Since in practice Christianity is largely about an "imaginary friend" anyway, the news that the original Christ was the imaginary friend _par excellence_ could be taken as a cue to return to the roots of genuine Christianity. IOW, they could just say, "yeah, he's a thoroughgoingly spiritual being who really exists and really appeared - and still appears - in visions". Admittedly, that's not going to be a majority position, but it might be a majority position for any form of Christianity that survives through the coming centuries. And why not, indeed? Perfectly fine, in my book. Nothing wrong with hallucinatory imaginary friends, so long as you don't get any on the furniture. Then, from the atheist point of view, actually part of the resistance to mythicism has come from atheists who, in an attack dog frame of mind, think that mythicists are queering the pitch, that mythicism is such a bizarre idea it's a distraction in the fight against Christianity (i.e. so ridiculous that it's easy for the auld enemy to pooh-pooh). But I think as the consensus shifts, this objection will have less force. And I think the evidence (as Carrier's books show) is pretty strong - at the very least, it's absolutely not an irrational position, and it can be supported pretty well by the evidence, at least as well as the historicist position (and actually, better). On the other hand, for atheists who are excited by mythicism because they think it will "destroy" Christianity - well, maybe not. Not only might Christians take the tack I outlined above (accept the original mythicist form as the real form), they can also go with the existential route that's already been taken by many serious, philosophically-minded Christians throughout much of the 20th century. And of course, many Christians, and probably the majority, will just ignore it or rationalize it - stick to their guns (again, even if mythicism seems more likely on the whole, turning the tables, and by the very nature of the evidence, historicism is still _somewhat_ rationally supportable). I think the form of Christianity that's most likely to be strongly affected is Catholicism, which does base its claim very much on the historical lineage. But even with Catholicism, Gnosticism is so much a part of its roots, that it's quite possible that a future Pope could re-adjust Catholicism to be more in line with the gnostic aspect of its roots, without too much bother.
+Diego Ruiz Many of them do see it. Just a few months ago, I got into a debate about this with a street preacher who was standing outside a subway station as I was leaving. After about 45 minutes of conversation, he more or less admitted that a couple of the arguments that he was using on people on the street had been debunked by various atheists (Matt Dilahunty and Richard Carrier were two of the names he mentioned) and that he was aware that those arguments had been debunked and that he was using them anyway. He went as far as to tell me that he had SEEN the debunking of the arguments and was using them anyway.When I pointed out this was intellectually dishonest and asked him why he did it anyway, he outright told me that he KNEW it was dishonest and that the reason he did it was because the arguments he was making worked on many people whether they were true or not. Basically, he admitted to being a "Liar 4 Jesus."Many of the followers of the religions don't understand that the arguments they are making are fallacious and have been debunked. But the leaders? The people they are getting these arguments from? They DO know. But they perpetuate the arguments anyway. People like Matt Slick and Ken Ham can have an argument be completely debunked one week in a public debate and be using the same argument again (and encouraging their followers to do so) the next and they seem to have no moral qualms about it.
ThatGuy182545 I see this all the time. When debating evolution, I demonstrate one argument to be wrong and I'm just served another one with no acknowledgement that I destroyed the first one. When debating my fundamentalist Christian parents, I've heard the same objection three times ("If people came from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?"), and I doubt they remember the answer or have learned not to use this argument, even after the third time.
Not really. Whats does he actually say? Christianity adopted some of the religious ideas of other religions? That some manuscipts have been discounted as fraudulent? Neither is a new idea. And neither has anything to do if whether or not Jesus actually existed. He goes on about a lot of nothing and never actually presents any real verifiable evidence for or against the existence of a real person. As best I can tell this guy is pandering to people predisposed to agree with him and not much more.
As best as you can tell is a very low bar indeed. Have you actually read his books? Have you listened to any of his lectures where he actually gives that data that forms the basis of his conclusions? He proposes that the writings of Paul are strictly revelatory, which anyone can read if they go to the bible. And therefore, Paul doesn't attest to the life and corporeal existence of Jesus. The four gospels are anonymous, with authorship being a matter of church tradition. This is also freely admitted by every single mainstream biblical scholar. And we have no sources for jesus outside of the bible. None. That's pretty damning, if one were attempting to prove the historicity of jesus.
Such a great interview! I enjoy Dr. Carrier's clear explanations. :) A few books that I found enlightening, as well, are: 'The Psychedelic Gospels' (By Brown & Brown); And, 'The Dead Sea Scrolls and The Christian Myth', along with, 'The Mushroom and The Cross', (Both by John M. Allegro). I'm excited to start reading Dr. Carrier's books! Thank you for interviewing him! :)
I'm a long time skeptic and non-believer - big fan of Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, Feynman, Sagan, Shermer, De Grasse Tyson, Pinker, Jillette, Gervais et. al. I'm amazed that I've never heard of Dr Carrier until a few days ago. Will be reading his books!
Funny how not one of the negative comments have anything whatsoever to do with the actual content, but consist entirely of ad hominem attacks on Dr. Carrier AND the creators of this channel. Gee, could that be because they can't come up with anything FACTUAL to challenge you guys on?
Reading OHJ for a second time right now, actually. Good to see this getting more press; maybe if enough attention is paid to the argument, we'll get an actual scholarly attempt to argue against it. Because so far, nobody has even attempted it.
Am I alone in thinking it's *DAMNED WEIRD* that the comments don't deal with Carrier's ideas and scholarly research??? Instead, the comments are focused on his personal life(which strikes me as perfectly fine to me and is none of my concern) and his philosophies on feminism (which *isn't* fine, but it's ALSO none of my concern). But neither personal preferences nor public feminism(shudder) changes that I think he's dead on the money regarding the mythical nature of Jesus. He's *right* about religion in this regard, and since he *IS*, I'll pay attention to that aspect of his public discourse. Outside of that, I don't really care what kind of cream-cheese-llama-bondage the guy is into. Just out of curiosity, what *HAS* Richard Carrier said that has everyone so pissed off? I don't want a link, just write out your grievances like I ain't never heard nuthin' about this before.
+GoodAvatar As I understand it he was one of the driving forces behind the Atheism+ movement, being notable for publishing an article which specifically stated that the intention was to drive atheists who didn't ascribe to radical feminism out of the community and prevent discussion that ran contrary to the 'correct' way of thinking. Personally I'm of the 'when people talk sense I listen to them, when they talk crap I ignore them, it is the arguments that matter not the person saying them', but I understand the wounded feelings. Hopefully as the years pass and atheism+ fades deeper into a bad memory the bruised feelings will fade and he will generate less emotion, that is however something that would be helped by a cessation in the attacks from both sides.
+GoodAvatar Indeed, although I think his blog is gibberish and his drama on polyamory is just cringe-worthy, when he does research, he should be judged by that.
+Andrew Tall no it wasn't. Atheism plus was about humanism - an atheist philosophy which isn't hostile to women. Seems to me once you abandon religion you might as well abandon the patriarchal bullshit that religion teaches. Cant see what the problem is with that. Also dont see what is supposed to be so unacceptable about 'public feminism' @GoodAvatar, but I agree Carrier should be judged on his work not his personality.
Bruce Wayne Well, "Patriarchy" doesn't exist as defined by feminists. The fact that they're so rabid about it's existence strikes me as a tad kooky. I'm all for egalitarianism. But that's not what feminism *IS* or *WANTS.* To me, feminists push an awful lot of double standards and total bullshit. Too much for me to endorse or take seriously.
Got here after the recent Bart Ehrman video. Have to say, it's a little odd to hear Ehrman get away so easily with his dismissal of Jesus mysticism, when this was out there all those years
There's so much evidence now that the stories about Jesus are unreliable. Richard has put a great deal of effort into researching the early Christian history. His books are fascinating, enjoyable and very popular. Highly recommended.
Hey Seth, I'm not sure if you read the comment section of your vids but I just have to compliment you on how well produced they are. Tight, clean audio and well done, good quality video. I like how in this video you went with the, I'll call it, "PBS Frontline" style of interviewing where we don't see you, the interviewer, just the subject, Richard. Anyway, Keep up the good work!!!
I totally agree with this analysis, but the problem is not so much how people can believe in such nonsense, as why. You can point out the fallacies/absurdities again and again, but if believers have a vested interest (economic, social, political and/or psychological) in their 'faith' then they'll continue to hold onto them. This is why we need to pay attention to the motives as well. A study still needs to be done into the spread of monotheistic religions inside the Roman Empire and its forebears, the social/economic groups that spread them, and their relationship to (with or against) the contemporary ruling elites etc.
I'm currently quite in agreement with Carrier's notions. Jesus almost certainly never existed as most Chritians imagine him. There could have been some guy it's based on, but not necessarily. The least we can say is that his divinity is a myth.
Read the last chapter of Deuteronomy, then try to convince yourself that Moses wrote it. It says that God buried Moses and nobody knows the location. I don't see how Moses could write about the events after he died. It also says that no prophet has been better than Moses !
One of the issues about the historicity of Jesus is and has been since my childhood was there were no contemporary eye witness accounts that Jesus existed during the time of his supposed life. All accounts about his 'life" came years later, sometimes decades.
When he says that we have two different version on Luke at 6:30, I think he meant to say Acts. They are by the same author so that may be why he got them mixed up.
+CaseAgainstFaith1 Oh, I didn't hear him say Luke/Acts a couple seconds later the first time I watched this video. Luke and Acts were sometimes circulated a one unit so it would make sense to refer to it like that.
+Jacob Zentichko I think he's talking about Marcion's gospel. The crazy thing about that is that Marcion wasn't writing until 130-140...Marcion's gospel doesn't have a birth story, which is a *very* important detail...
+Tim C I thought the Marcion Cannon contained the book of Luke along with 10 letters of Paul (if that is wrong, feel free to correct me). I guess I just wasn't aware that there was a different edition to the book of Luke as well as Acts.
Why are so many people afraid of open and honest debate? Is it because it is easier to just accept certain things as "given" and move on without examining the beliefs that we hold to be true?
Wow. Like Richard, I had intense "spiritual" experiences that convinced me that Taoism was true. Until I found science could explain my experiences...etc.
I had Christian spiritual experiences that I have no explanation for. Would you be kind enough to let me know what science says about these sort of experiences, whatever religion they relate to. Thank you kindly.
@@heatherclark8668 Hi. Yes. I was an atheist from childhood until age 17. Then I had an extreme experience that led me to become a Christian believer for a dozen or so years. Then a few years into my thirties I had another intense similar experience. I spent the nineties trying to figure out what was going on through mysticism and other religions. Then through the internet and RUclips and research I have diagnosed myself as having neocortical temporal lobe epilepsy do to some traumatic brain injury I experienced as a child. My experiences match exactly the symptoms of people who have had religious experience, such as Paul and Mohammed and Buddha and many others. That's how science has explained my rapturous and amazing experiences that I still experience to this day, but I know are my physical body.
@@216trixie Thank you so much for taking the time to reply to me and in such detail. I am very grateful especially since you posted that comment over 7 years ago.
I've seen The Mesiah next to my bed in spirit form, bright white body with longer hair and a robe. If he was a man who walked the earth cool if he was never a man who walked the earth bit had power I still have to believe after that encounter of him.
@Allington Marakan because he he is not just going to show himself so a bunch of evil people can believe in him. He wants only the pure in heart to believe in him not everybody. There are people on this earth who are sent from Satan in fact many people who are satans children and not his fathers children. The battle on earth is between good and evil. God vs satans. There is scripture "get away from me you are of your father the devil" -Jesus.
Hi itsatz, I just made a comment with some of the core literary facts in his Caesar's Messiah theory. My comment basically says the core literary facts Atwill uses are dynamite ... the theory he couched them in ... not so much.
Feminism is mentioned in the comments way more than it is in this video... which is 0. I'm not a fan of the radical feminist movement going on either, but can we focus on whats in the video and put aside what isn't? I don't care about his stance on feminism (because a lot of atheist I really like are feminist unfortunately... kinda makes me sad but I turn them off when they say shit regarding it) or what he does in his personal life, I'm here for the information, which is why you should have clicked this, too. Unless you just searched Richard Carrier and commented "FEMINIST MORON" and disliked all the videos with him in it.
+DragonCharlz Thanks. I, too, lament that so many jumped onto a soapbox before watching the content (or before exclaiming that they wouldn't even take the time to watch). Lots of good stuff in here. -Seth
nodws Then what did you click this video for? Just to insult Richard? Get a life. Seriously, if you have nothing to say about the content, then you are literally wasting your time. Nothing is more childish than what some people, like yourself, are doing. We get it, you disagree with something he's not even talking about here, SO DO I, but I'm not here for that, because he's not talking about it here.
***** I'm only interested in the topic of this video when I click on this video. When I want to see how stupid feminism is, I'll watch one of those videos, and if he's on the bad end there, then so be it. Right now, he didn't mention feminism one time, so you mentioning and acting like everything someone says should be dragged everywhere that they go is just stupid. Sorry I don't care about your hatred of feminism on a video that isn't talking about it. Grow up kids.
I'd say because we're fairly certain that Matthew and Luke both used Mark as their primary source and the Q-Document theory that Matthew+Luke share a mysteriously hidden second source is, well, mysteriously flimsy. So Matthew doesn't really add much to this discussion (especially since Matthew really brings in the fantastical bits for Christ). I know Carrier goes into them all further in other talks
What's the big deal on Carriers feminism - "I am a feminist because feminism is simply the belief that women should be treated as fairly as men, and there is no factual or rational reason to want the world to work any other way." How is this a "sad" view? Why is everyone all - "I'm not a feminist like Carrier..."???
joel rivard There are many people who have some sense of how bad their sexism (or racism, etc) looks and will attack principled people (not saying Carrier is necessarily an outstanding example) so as to divert from their own anti-humanism.
Talking to trees is much better than talking to yourself for you see when you talk to trees there is an end, however when you talk to yourself it never ends unless of course you're working in the contemplative arts.
There's one major flaw in Carrier's hypothesis that I have yet to hear him address, namely, that if we take it for granted that Jesus the man never existed, at some point we have to start talking about human beings who actually existed. Do we start with Peter and the twelve disciples? We have even less evidence of them existing. Do we start with Paul? If so, then are we to assume that neither Jesus and his original apostles existed; therefore, Paul was promoting not one but at least a baker's dozen men who never existed. But Paul himself claims to know Peter personally, so that would be a rather delusional claim if Peter never existed. Or we could go to the other extreme that Paul, also, never existed, so we must hypothesize that all of Paul's writings were fabricated by...whom? The early church fathers: Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp, Justin Martyr? At some point we have to postulate flesh and blood people, and that becomes a far more gargantuan task than simply assuming that Jesus was an actual person who walked the earth. Of course, this doesn't prove Jesus existed, but it does suggest that presuming that Jesus never existed at all is quite a bit more far-fetched than presuming he did.
Except that none of those people were ever worshipped as a god, while Jesus of course was. That affects the probability. Not to mention we actually have works that at least have the names of most of these people on them. We have nothing like that for Jesus, except for documents that we know are forgeries of course. Mythicism is also not just about a lack of evidence that clearly places a person in history, it's about the best explanation for the evidence we do have. There is a lot of evidence which is far better explained by a theory that Jesus was a pre-existent celestial being, not a man who lived on earth.
And Paul doesn't give names to Jesus's disciples. He never even uses the word disciples. He makes reference to "the Twelve", and he mentions Peter and James as Christians he met in Jerusalem, but he never says that they met Jesus or were his disciples.
Am I the only one who thought this was Seth until he started talking? :D Very enlightening. I need to forward this to some people. Many things said really have been taught even in religion class, however, not as in depth and justifying things like the obvious edits and the fact that several authors hacked into one gospel.
I've got the audio books for the collection of papers and the latest. Unfortunately you still have to have the book handy for the footnotes. The latest one _On the Historicity_ is excellent. 5 stars. And no, I'm not a feminist and I don't subscribe to Atheism+. However, I still appreciate the extensive knowledge of Dr Carrier on this subject.
It's only a mystery to those who have no faith. For you are saved by grace, through faith. It is by grace And not of yourself, lest any man should boast.... It is a gift of God! Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of god/christ.
Great video.... but WHOOPS! Seth, I recognize that "media offline" screen at the end there, you use Premiere, huh? Something screwy went wrong with the render it looks like, was missing a file from your bin! I'm assuming its your Thinking Atheist logo, right? Hehe, I saw that red screen out of the corner of my eye so it caught my attention.
+RyoHazuki224 It's a glitch I missed in the export. I simply trimmed it, so I wouldn't have to re-export after it's been shared on everybody's social media pages. Seemed to work fine. (Still irritating, though.)
***** Hehe, I've been there plenty of times! Whats worse is when you realize something in the smack dab middle of a video that took hours to render, hours to upload, has an error or something wrong right in the middle! Ahhh... gotta love video editing! :) Still, this was a great video and I look forward to part 2! I may even pick up Dr. Carrier's audiobook! Great interview, Seth!
We know god is real and lives outside space and time. Of course he hasn't always lived there, only since flying machines were invented. He used to live in a bush up a mountain (Exodus 3:4. Deuteronomy 33:16) And sometimes in a tent on a mercy seat (Exodus 25:22 Numbers 7:89).
great interview. it's sad how many people genuinely aren't educated in history of their own religion. and while I have as much opposition of modern feminism as the next guy, I don't see why so many people are bitching on a completely irrelevant subject.
Yep, check out the wiki on Demon, especially the Etymology section: "The Ancient Greek word δαίμων daemon denotes a spirit or divine power, much like the Latin genius or numen."
"Burned by the Internet, so often", ..that what is presented has to evolve across the spectrum of "truth" +/-, until it can be recognized by anyone who cares about the values presented in the current context. Good. Academic discussion is best conducted from a double opposition positioning, that is taking the other proponents POV and challenging your own. It's how we are supposed to reason inside our heads before opening up the discussion. Richard Carrier "lays it out" and adds the cross checking in detail. The result is that it could be possible to realize the real world values and intended virtues of the topic.(?)
Yeah, if I thought the bible was the word of god, I would be reading it over and over and over again and meet with others to discuss the text. I would read books by others discussing the text. My whole life would be centered around memorizing and understanding the text. It is bizarre that there are many people who think it is the word of god yet don't bother to read it.
@@davidfenton3910Even if it’s entirely fictitious, the Bible is still one of the most important texts in the English language, at the very least. Even if you felt your time was wasted by Christians, consider that there’s much to be learned from the ancient text. With a different perspective your time may not have been wasted.
Hi EnigmaEuslam Thanks for your reply to this old comment. EVEN IF IT’S ENTIRELY FICTITIOUS, Objectively, as far as I know and can show, the bible is significantly based on philosophical planning in Plato to deceive and defraud the general public by 'Philosopher--King' rulers. The text, 'Plato and the Creation of the Hebrew Bible' lays out some of the planning and how it was used to create the bible. There are various YT vids in which the author discusses this. e.g. ruclips.net/video/-WymCNbsAsQ/видео.html THE BIBLE IS STILL ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT TEXTS IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE, AT THE VERY LEAST. ... CONSIDER THAT THERE’S MUCH TO BE LEARNED FROM THE ANCIENT TEXT. *Yes absolutely!* Because the Bible is a prime example of philosophical influence deceptively founding western civilisation, knowledge of it gives knowledge/insights into philosophical deception. Most significantly, this is an objective understanding of the ancient roots *and current nature* of western society. The planning in Plato is still being used and like any design that works, it has been continually refined and improved. Because of well over 2000 years of use *and improvement,* the 'Religious Sense' of the bible has been genre transitioned - it's no longer outwardly religious, but is far more devastatingly effective. EVEN IF YOU FELT YOUR TIME WAS WASTED BY CHRISTIANS, I consider church attending Christians and most Pastors/Priests etc to be unwitting victims as I was. Those philosophically aware of what Christianity and society is and who perpetuate it; through failure to make known the truth of it; are the ones most responsible for wasting my time and doing extremely significant damage to my core of reason and hence thinking and living. The violation through such trespass into and _'stealing'_ key parts of another's mind is atrocious. And western society is based upon and uses upgraded worse forms of it today! Western society today has billions of lovely people that have had extremely corrupting things done to their cognitive function and resultant world views and living. And because I'm still conditioned to collectivism because my familial ties were in-grafted into society, I love and feel deeply for them all. WITH A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE YOUR TIME MAY NOT HAVE BEEN WASTED. The time was definitely wasted in the sense that I was basing and living my life from philosophical fabrications, both in the Christian genre *and the Natural genre* which is the upgraded form of philosophical false narrative now most prominent. Finding out the core fact that the Hebrew bible and religious beliefs from it (Christian/Islamic) are philosophical and in particular Platonic, in their roots, gives powerful perspective. So powerful that it helps penetrate the even the more deceptive and influential effects of the upgraded forms of philosophical deception today. If you want to discuss aspects/parts of philosophical deception past or present let me know. I wouldn't want to waste all that time gaining insights into the bible, which is at its root - Plato's-philosophical-planning. Just like the bible had it's various topics and stories the new super narrative has its own. Feel free to pick one your interested in or don't know about or add one I don't know about. - Schooling as the prime method of conditioning/indoctrination. - Covid virus/pandemic - Aids virus/pandemic - Viruses not what we've been led to think - Jenner's vaccination as philosophical narrative - 'Woke' Ideology - THE terrorist attacks on that date - Nuclear Bombs as philosophical narrative - Hitlers Germany Holocaust etc. as philosophical narrative - Geneva convention - war trials as philosophical narrative - Global warming etc. - Or other aspects topics Happy to talk to someone that plays guitar. I sold the Ovation I imported years ago, as needed $$$. When they stopped the Lords Prayer in parliament I arranged it to some guitar on YT and told them if they didn't believe it then the expectation to pray it was not reasonable and I and presumably other Christians would take care of it. I'll upload an mp3 to my website so you can have a listen to some of what my delusional bible belief caused me to do. The guitar is about as good as I put together, but I couldn't play it now. Found it, uploaded it, the file was dated 2014! I've come a long way since then but not my guitar playing. Have a GREAT day EnigmaEuslam! sincerely david
@@davidfenton3910 Wow. That’s one hell of a response! These topics are of great interest to me but I’m a father to two small children and caring for them consumes most of my daylight hours (leaving my music work resigned to a few hours n the evening) so responding in kind isn’t typically feasible, despite the fact that I’d love to hear more of your thoughts. Ever considered using your channel to express these ideas? I must say that it definitely doesn’t sound to me like you wasted ALL of your time. Forming a worldview this unencumbered by prevailing narratives must be worth something right? Finding a way out of the cave is worth the struggle, no?
I've seen the Messiah next to my bed. Even without the bible and that day I seen him. I'm a believer. Most heroic and positive person ever. He deserves us to be 1 with him. Straight up. He is cool asf
@@surfk9836 so instead of believing in a book,you woild rather believe scientists who are people who are rich as fuck and you have never met lol that sure makes lots of sense. Haha. See the thing about reading a book is that you use your judgement and mind to read the book . Period. And then you use your own wisdom or mind or judgement too say to yourself If it is true it not and that's how people believe the same way anything in the world.
Kristo's is a Gnostic Aeon who wasn't Jewish and didn't die for your sin. Yahweh is a Demiurge and Yahshua is the replicant Archon of Kristo's created by the Demiurge. Lucifer who isn't Satan is another Archon who is extraordinarily busy on earth today via Kaballism who is in the process of fulling the myth of turning humans into Gods (via A.I. )...
Great vid, but who were those people in the Talpiot Tomb? I know you have a background in Bayesian Stats. The probability of those particular name being found randomly on Ossuaries dating to around 70 AD is highly unlikely. Do you believe the inscriptions were faked? As I understand it the patina test came back legit. Maybe I have missed some other evidence along the way.
Christianity was hatched by 'Rome. There was a Jesus who walked this Earth thousand of years before Cchritianity was hatched, He never saud he was the only way, never said he came to save anyone, never told anyone to follow him. His Message was Peace & Love.
Carrier may be self-righteous and judgemental, but that doesn't negate the fact that he's a professional historian and probably knows what he's talking about here. Just... can't you people ignore his feminism and his history with the A+ movement for a moment? It has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
We should make efforts to qualify "grow out of" when talking about our changing faiths. We mean it as the continual growth and change we experience as people, but many of the faithful view it as calling them children. They see it as meaning "growing up" when we mean "growing broad" or "gaining breadth of knowledge and changing". We should try not to accidentally condescend to people we hope to change the minds of.
The weakness in myth theory is the fact that he was not known as Jesus of Bethlehem. Everyone knew that he was from Nazareth. This is why both Matthew and Luke wrote such fanciful birth narratives. I cannot think of a single reason why Mark would have created this problem that prompted other gospel authors to twist themselves in pretzels.
It’s hilarious that Carrier criticism of Atwill sounds similar to others who criticize Carrier. I think the answers lie in the middle somewhere. Perhaps in time the wrinkles will be ironed out, but right now, to the casual reader, there are obviously egos in play, but then that’s nothing new.
its a surprise to me that richard carrier is not a household name yet. at least not where i come from. his thoery about jesus is the only one that really makes any sense.
The original Mystery to begin with is Paul's--- the mystery of Godliness, whose focal point is given Holy Spirit birth, Holy Spirit speech and existence from mystical incarnation, not at all Natural and human. By Holy Spirit her 'child' was conceived, just as soon as such conception could be believed: So she brings forth, quite against the grain, so contrary to childbirth and real human pain. The real reason why there is no "second coming" for the figure Jesus is that He Never Left!, and is both multiplied everywhere and present to the end of the age---- that of the age of Pisces. All the evil aspects of 'Gospels' come from secondary and tertiary aspects, which despite Atwill, are greatly influenced by Rome nonetheless. Furthermore, the writings called apocryphal were, for example dozens of earlier "gospels". When one has decades upon decades of familiarity with all these writings, it points to a conclusion of necessity---- that since Moses' Adam was the clay prototype of the earthly man, Jesus is Paul's workmanship as a second Moses-type which is emulating in mystical typology the attributes of the Spiritual man, Jesus, but not hindered by the secret that , bodily, he's an ICON, a statue. This typology has long existed in both word and theory, but not in both Spirit and Truth. For 2000 years the integrity of the mythical Christ figure has been the Cause waiting for the rebel to perform it. It surprises Gentiles to hear rabbis like Mark Golub tell people," Moses and Abraham, nor the ark of Noah are to be taken literally" on show after show of JEM {Jewish Ed. Media}---- and STILL one other area, Gematria, is being grossly left out of consideration, for lack of Knowledge. The necessary evil, both in "Paul's milk-- and the accompanying lie he hints about" is that Great Teaching can actually use a bit of deception to accomplish a justifiable , and magnanimous end. This is why a Jesus could be invented. Plato's Republic, believe it or not, looks like a parallel blueprint to the positive side of Christian doctrine, but the lies and slanders and unsubstantiated vilification--- I can certainly see Rome lapping it up, the way the Germans systematically decimated everything but the Jews' last breath. The innermost nexus of Good which is left {for the Gospel} is the performance of the Last Banquet of Remembrance, of testing spirits, of proving same, in which all things ARE actually prepared. And guess where these judgments and revelations will be consummated--- in the only other Place the Bible resides, the courts of our Nation--- what's left of it.
Carrier is brilliant. Thanks Seth for a fantastic interview.
+Raoul Borans I just can't take the guy seriously.
+RpgDestiny I'm sure you have your reasons but it's probably best you keep them to yourself.
Carrier's credentials and knowledge are impeccable so I'm guessing you just don't like him as a person?
Raoul Borans Pretty much. I mean, asking for girlfriends on your blog is kind of pathetic. He also has the mentality that "if you're not with me, you're against me." So yeah, I don't think he's a great person.
macsporan I have nothing against his argument.
I find your remark about his respectfulness particularly outrageous. The man is an ideologue who can't not see left or right. No one is afraid of this man. He makes good arguments but he's so pathetic I'm afraid no one takes him seriously.
+RpgDestiny Can you give some reasons why you think Carrier is an ideologue not being able to see left or right (do you mean left right politically or some other figurative sense of the word)? Other than his personal sexual preferences, which make you uncomfortable, in what way do you think he is pathetic? If you think his arguments are good, why even bother to try to discredit him by focusing on everything other than his arguments? That being said, I don't think he is the one who should be called pathetic.
Everyone needs to watch this video. Its mind boggling to me that people don't see the holes and fallacies and the absolute lack of evidence for the existence of Jesus
+itsasin1969 Diego agrees with you. He wrote 2 sentences... was that too much to read?
Or maybe you're just backing up his assertion, which seems weird to do as a reply to his comment instead of as a reply to the video. In any case, the caps-locked "ZERO"s set the wrong tone.
+Diego Ruiz They either don't want to or they simply don't care. They insist that America is founded on christianity... That should be a hint.
+Diego Ruiz I think it's pretty fair to say that the cat's out of the bag nowadays.
But I don't think it's _necessarily_ either a boo or hooray fact either for atheists or for Christians. Since in practice Christianity is largely about an "imaginary friend" anyway, the news that the original Christ was the imaginary friend _par excellence_ could be taken as a cue to return to the roots of genuine Christianity. IOW, they could just say, "yeah, he's a thoroughgoingly spiritual being who really exists and really appeared - and still appears - in visions". Admittedly, that's not going to be a majority position, but it might be a majority position for any form of Christianity that survives through the coming centuries.
And why not, indeed? Perfectly fine, in my book. Nothing wrong with hallucinatory imaginary friends, so long as you don't get any on the furniture.
Then, from the atheist point of view, actually part of the resistance to mythicism has come from atheists who, in an attack dog frame of mind, think that mythicists are queering the pitch, that mythicism is such a bizarre idea it's a distraction in the fight against Christianity (i.e. so ridiculous that it's easy for the auld enemy to pooh-pooh). But I think as the consensus shifts, this objection will have less force. And I think the evidence (as Carrier's books show) is pretty strong - at the very least, it's absolutely not an irrational position, and it can be supported pretty well by the evidence, at least as well as the historicist position (and actually, better).
On the other hand, for atheists who are excited by mythicism because they think it will "destroy" Christianity - well, maybe not. Not only might Christians take the tack I outlined above (accept the original mythicist form as the real form), they can also go with the existential route that's already been taken by many serious, philosophically-minded Christians throughout much of the 20th century.
And of course, many Christians, and probably the majority, will just ignore it or rationalize it - stick to their guns (again, even if mythicism seems more likely on the whole, turning the tables, and by the very nature of the evidence, historicism is still _somewhat_ rationally supportable).
I think the form of Christianity that's most likely to be strongly affected is Catholicism, which does base its claim very much on the historical lineage. But even with Catholicism, Gnosticism is so much a part of its roots, that it's quite possible that a future Pope could re-adjust Catholicism to be more in line with the gnostic aspect of its roots, without too much bother.
+Diego Ruiz Many of them do see it. Just a few months ago, I got into a debate about this with a street preacher who was standing outside a subway station as I was leaving. After about 45 minutes of conversation, he more or less admitted that a couple of the arguments that he was using on people on the street had been debunked by various atheists (Matt Dilahunty and Richard Carrier were two of the names he mentioned) and that he was aware that those arguments had been debunked and that he was using them anyway. He went as far as to tell me that he had SEEN the debunking of the arguments and was using them anyway.When I pointed out this was intellectually dishonest and asked him why he did it anyway, he outright told me that he KNEW it was dishonest and that the reason he did it was because the arguments he was making worked on many people whether they were true or not. Basically, he admitted to being a "Liar 4 Jesus."Many of the followers of the religions don't understand that the arguments they are making are fallacious and have been debunked. But the leaders? The people they are getting these arguments from? They DO know. But they perpetuate the arguments anyway. People like Matt Slick and Ken Ham can have an argument be completely debunked one week in a public debate and be using the same argument again (and encouraging their followers to do so) the next and they seem to have no moral qualms about it.
ThatGuy182545
I see this all the time. When debating evolution, I demonstrate one argument to be wrong and I'm just served another one with no acknowledgement that I destroyed the first one. When debating my fundamentalist Christian parents, I've heard the same objection three times ("If people came from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?"), and I doubt they remember the answer or have learned not to use this argument, even after the third time.
Awesome interview Seth! Richard Carrier is brilliant.
Thank you so much to both of you for your work! Much appreciated.
This guy knows what he is talking about.
Not really. Whats does he actually say? Christianity adopted some of the religious ideas of other religions? That some manuscipts have been discounted as fraudulent? Neither is a new idea. And neither has anything to do if whether or not Jesus actually existed. He goes on about a lot of nothing and never actually presents any real verifiable evidence for or against the existence of a real person.
As best I can tell this guy is pandering to people predisposed to agree with him and not much more.
As best as you can tell is a very low bar indeed. Have you actually read his books? Have you listened to any of his lectures where he actually gives that data that forms the basis of his conclusions? He proposes that the writings of Paul are strictly revelatory, which anyone can read if they go to the bible. And therefore, Paul doesn't attest to the life and corporeal existence of Jesus. The four gospels are anonymous, with authorship being a matter of church tradition. This is also freely admitted by every single mainstream biblical scholar. And we have no sources for jesus outside of the bible. None. That's pretty damning, if one were attempting to prove the historicity of jesus.
One of the best, concise summaries of Carrier's research.
One of your best ever Seth! can't wait for part 2!
Such a great interview! I enjoy Dr. Carrier's clear explanations. :) A few books that I found enlightening, as well, are: 'The Psychedelic Gospels' (By Brown & Brown); And, 'The Dead Sea Scrolls and The Christian Myth', along with, 'The Mushroom and The Cross', (Both by John M. Allegro). I'm excited to start reading Dr. Carrier's books! Thank you for interviewing him! :)
May Dr. Carrier never lose his hair!
Big fan of Richard Carrier
I'm a long time skeptic and non-believer - big fan of Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, Feynman, Sagan, Shermer, De Grasse Tyson, Pinker, Jillette, Gervais et. al. I'm amazed that I've never heard of Dr Carrier until a few days ago. Will be reading his books!
Funny how not one of the negative comments have anything whatsoever to do with the actual content, but consist entirely of ad hominem attacks on Dr. Carrier AND the creators of this channel. Gee, could that be because they can't come up with anything FACTUAL to challenge you guys on?
Jennifer Brewer Exactly! That's what happens when the truth angers people. They get defensive and attack!!
Smear tactics... it's all the god-squad have got.
Because they very clearly don't have any evidence.
Ad hominem is the "go to" strategy when the facts aren't on your side.
Richard Carrier is just one of the reasons I became an atheist.
Reading OHJ for a second time right now, actually. Good to see this getting more press; maybe if enough attention is paid to the argument, we'll get an actual scholarly attempt to argue against it. Because so far, nobody has even attempted it.
Thank you, Seth. And, Richard!
Fantastic discussion. I’m looking forward to reading his book. Carrier is an exceptional orator. I wonder where his passions will take him next...
excellent analysis by Dr Carrier. great, informative interview.
Thank you so much for this it was very interesting
Love this interview. Thanks!
Great interview Seth. Well done and you’re more at ease and professional with each clip.
Terrific work, Seth! Thank you for a lively and informative interview with Dr. Carrier.
Great video Seth!!! Fascinating subject for sure.
Am I alone in thinking it's *DAMNED WEIRD* that the comments don't deal with Carrier's ideas and scholarly research??? Instead, the comments are focused on his personal life(which strikes me as perfectly fine to me and is none of my concern) and his philosophies on feminism (which *isn't* fine, but it's ALSO none of my concern).
But neither personal preferences nor public feminism(shudder) changes that I think he's dead on the money regarding the mythical nature of Jesus.
He's *right* about religion in this regard, and since he *IS*, I'll pay attention to that aspect of his public discourse.
Outside of that, I don't really care what kind of cream-cheese-llama-bondage the guy is into.
Just out of curiosity, what *HAS* Richard Carrier said that has everyone so pissed off?
I don't want a link, just write out your grievances like I ain't never heard nuthin' about this before.
+GoodAvatar As I understand it he was one of the driving forces behind the Atheism+ movement, being notable for publishing an article which specifically stated that the intention was to drive atheists who didn't ascribe to radical feminism out of the community and prevent discussion that ran contrary to the 'correct' way of thinking.
Personally I'm of the 'when people talk sense I listen to them, when they talk crap I ignore them, it is the arguments that matter not the person saying them', but I understand the wounded feelings. Hopefully as the years pass and atheism+ fades deeper into a bad memory the bruised feelings will fade and he will generate less emotion, that is however something that would be helped by a cessation in the attacks from both sides.
+GoodAvatar Indeed, although I think his blog is gibberish and his drama on polyamory is just cringe-worthy, when he does research, he should be judged by that.
+Andrew Tall no it wasn't. Atheism plus was about humanism - an atheist philosophy which isn't hostile to women. Seems to me once you abandon religion you might as well abandon the patriarchal bullshit that religion teaches. Cant see what the problem is with that. Also dont see what is supposed to be so unacceptable about 'public feminism' @GoodAvatar, but I agree Carrier should be judged on his work not his personality.
Bruce Wayne Well, "Patriarchy" doesn't exist as defined by feminists. The fact that they're so rabid about it's existence strikes me as a tad kooky.
I'm all for egalitarianism.
But that's not what feminism *IS* or *WANTS.*
To me, feminists push an awful lot of double standards and total bullshit.
Too much for me to endorse or take seriously.
GoodAvatar patriarchy exists. Where do you get the idea that equality isnt what feminism is or wants?
I suppose I should watch it before voting the video up but I'm taking it on faith that it will be good.
That's the (holy) spirit!
Seth, this video is MONEY ... for anyone who is sick unto death of the Jesus myth. Thanks to you and Richard ... a LOT.
Got here after the recent Bart Ehrman video. Have to say, it's a little odd to hear Ehrman get away so easily with his dismissal of Jesus mysticism, when this was out there all those years
I’m so glad your bringing questions about the god stuff.Its to follow without question and believe leadership of military and church.
There's so much evidence now that the stories about Jesus are unreliable.
Richard has put a great deal of effort into researching the early Christian history.
His books are fascinating, enjoyable and very popular.
Highly recommended.
Hey Seth, I'm not sure if you read the comment section of your vids but I just have to compliment you on how well produced they are. Tight, clean audio and well done, good quality video. I like how in this video you went with the, I'll call it, "PBS Frontline" style of interviewing where we don't see you, the interviewer, just the subject, Richard. Anyway, Keep up the good work!!!
Great interview, thank you.
he is outstanding
Thank you! :)
OTHJ is brilliant---you will learn so much. Highly recommend.
Excellent - on to Part 2!
It's welcomed, new insight👍💯
I want to follow this guys path
excellent
I have no doubt this will be the consensus in a decade or two.
We can speed this process by sharing it far and wide. I share it with any Christians that respect intellect.
I totally agree with this analysis, but the problem is not so much how people can believe in such nonsense, as why. You can point out the fallacies/absurdities again and again, but if believers have a vested interest (economic, social, political and/or psychological) in their 'faith' then they'll continue to hold onto them. This is why we need to pay attention to the motives as well. A study still needs to be done into the spread of monotheistic religions inside the Roman Empire and its forebears, the social/economic groups that spread them, and their relationship to (with or against) the contemporary ruling elites etc.
I have been a mythicist, and a real honest to goodness atheist, ever since I read Joseph Campbell's Hero With a Thousand Faces.
I'm currently quite in agreement with Carrier's notions. Jesus almost certainly never existed as most Chritians imagine him. There could have been some guy it's based on, but not necessarily. The least we can say is that his divinity is a myth.
Read the last chapter of Deuteronomy, then try to convince yourself that Moses wrote it.
It says that God buried Moses and nobody knows the location.
I don't see how Moses could write about the events after he died.
It also says that no prophet has been better than Moses !
One of the issues about the historicity of Jesus is and has been since my childhood was there were no contemporary eye witness accounts that Jesus existed during the time of his supposed life. All accounts about his 'life" came years later, sometimes decades.
Awesome!
Fascinating video
brilliant man
ordered Richard's book.
When he says that we have two different version on Luke at 6:30, I think he meant to say Acts. They are by the same author so that may be why he got them mixed up.
No, we actually have two versions of both Luke AND Acts. The shorter one is in the canon.
+Jacob Zentichko Actually he said "Luke/Acts". Which he tends to refer to Luke and Acts as one work, "Luke/Acts".
+CaseAgainstFaith1 Oh, I didn't hear him say Luke/Acts a couple seconds later the first time I watched this video. Luke and Acts were sometimes circulated a one unit so it would make sense to refer to it like that.
+Jacob Zentichko I think he's talking about Marcion's gospel. The crazy thing about that is that Marcion wasn't writing until 130-140...Marcion's gospel doesn't have a birth story, which is a *very* important detail...
+Tim C I thought the Marcion Cannon contained the book of Luke along with 10 letters of Paul (if that is wrong, feel free to correct me). I guess I just wasn't aware that there was a different edition to the book of Luke as well as Acts.
I talked to trees too, as a kid. Naivety and ignorance made for a magical childhood.
LOL, well said!
You are my kin..former child tree hugger too.
There's a song named "I talk to the trees" I like it, have you considered the possibilities of aliens?
Why are so many people afraid of open and honest debate? Is it because it is easier to just accept certain things as "given" and move on without examining the beliefs that we hold to be true?
Fascinating interview!
Good stuff.
Excellent thanks very much 😅
Wow. Like Richard, I had intense "spiritual" experiences that convinced me that Taoism was true. Until I found science could explain my experiences...etc.
I had Christian spiritual experiences that I have no explanation for. Would you be kind enough to let me know what science says about these sort of
experiences, whatever religion they relate to.
Thank you kindly.
@@heatherclark8668 Hi. Yes. I was an atheist from childhood until age 17. Then I had an extreme experience that led me to become a Christian believer for a dozen or so years. Then a few years into my thirties I had another intense similar experience. I spent the nineties trying to figure out what was going on through mysticism and other religions. Then through the internet and RUclips and research I have diagnosed myself as having neocortical temporal lobe epilepsy do to some traumatic brain injury I experienced as a child. My experiences match exactly the symptoms of people who have had religious experience, such as Paul and Mohammed and Buddha and many others. That's how science has explained my rapturous and amazing experiences that I still experience to this day, but I know are my physical body.
Hi to me from 7 years ago, doing well and enjoying life!
@@216trixie Thank you so much for taking the time to reply to me and in such detail.
I am very grateful especially since you posted that comment over 7 years ago.
@@heatherclark8668 Hi, sure. What kind of experiences did you have?
What's the word that Dr. Carrier uses at 11:30, "mono? not monotheistic?"
+grant50 Got it, monolatry.
I've been a mythisist for awhile. Skeptical of Jesus. Yep.
***** No.
You don't. But the tidal fits.
***** I'm skeptical that jesus existed. I can call myself a mythisis or not and still be skeptical.
I've seen The Mesiah next to my bed in spirit form, bright white body with longer hair and a robe. If he was a man who walked the earth cool if he was never a man who walked the earth bit had power I still have to believe after that encounter of him.
@Allington Marakan because he he is not just going to show himself so a bunch of evil people can believe in him. He wants only the pure in heart to believe in him not everybody. There are people on this earth who are sent from Satan in fact many people who are satans children and not his fathers children. The battle on earth is between good and evil. God vs satans. There is scripture "get away from me you are of your father the devil" -Jesus.
Jesus came to me in a dream last night. He assured me that he was real and promised me he would never lie to me. What more do you need?
Why have I never seen this b4q
Is anyone out there an expert on Atwill's book? I got some questions.
Hi itsatz, I just made a comment with some of the core literary facts in his Caesar's Messiah theory. My comment basically says the core literary facts Atwill uses are dynamite ... the theory he couched them in ... not so much.
Feminism is mentioned in the comments way more than it is in this video... which is 0. I'm not a fan of the radical feminist movement going on either, but can we focus on whats in the video and put aside what isn't? I don't care about his stance on feminism (because a lot of atheist I really like are feminist unfortunately... kinda makes me sad but I turn them off when they say shit regarding it) or what he does in his personal life, I'm here for the information, which is why you should have clicked this, too. Unless you just searched Richard Carrier and commented "FEMINIST MORON" and disliked all the videos with him in it.
+DragonCharlz Thanks. I, too, lament that so many jumped onto a soapbox before watching the content (or before exclaiming that they wouldn't even take the time to watch). Lots of good stuff in here. -Seth
nodws Then what did you click this video for? Just to insult Richard? Get a life. Seriously, if you have nothing to say about the content, then you are literally wasting your time. Nothing is more childish than what some people, like yourself, are doing. We get it, you disagree with something he's not even talking about here, SO DO I, but I'm not here for that, because he's not talking about it here.
DragonCharlz yawn
***** I'm only interested in the topic of this video when I click on this video. When I want to see how stupid feminism is, I'll watch one of those videos, and if he's on the bad end there, then so be it. Right now, he didn't mention feminism one time, so you mentioning and acting like everything someone says should be dragged everywhere that they go is just stupid. Sorry I don't care about your hatred of feminism on a video that isn't talking about it. Grow up kids.
+DragonCharlz My angle is psychology with both the christians and capitalists because they refuse to listen. Atheists aren't perfect either.
Hey Seth, what's that last "Media Offline" panel with all the different languages? I don't understand what its for.
+stiimuli I had a file glitch (not seeing the source), and I didn't catch it in the upload. I may upload again...just because it bugs me.
Just curious, when talking about the Gospels, there is no reference to Matthew. Wondering why. Thanks.
I'd say because we're fairly certain that Matthew and Luke both used Mark as their primary source and the Q-Document theory that Matthew+Luke share a mysteriously hidden second source is, well, mysteriously flimsy.
So Matthew doesn't really add much to this discussion (especially since Matthew really brings in the fantastical bits for Christ). I know Carrier goes into them all further in other talks
Just watched Part 2 with Fitzgerald. That might answer more of your question.
What's the big deal on Carriers feminism - "I am a feminist because feminism is simply the belief that women should be treated as fairly as men, and there is no factual or rational reason to want the world to work any other way."
How is this a "sad" view? Why is everyone all - "I'm not a feminist like Carrier..."???
joel rivard There are many people who have some sense of how bad their sexism (or racism, etc) looks and will attack principled people (not saying Carrier is necessarily an outstanding example) so as to divert from their own anti-humanism.
Wonan are equal but different?
Talking to trees is much better than talking to yourself for you see when you talk to trees there is an end, however when you talk to yourself it never ends unless of course you're working in the contemplative arts.
There's one major flaw in Carrier's hypothesis that I have yet to hear him address, namely, that if we take it for granted that Jesus the man never existed, at some point we have to start talking about human beings who actually existed. Do we start with Peter and the twelve disciples? We have even less evidence of them existing. Do we start with Paul? If so, then are we to assume that neither Jesus and his original apostles existed; therefore, Paul was promoting not one but at least a baker's dozen men who never existed. But Paul himself claims to know Peter personally, so that would be a rather delusional claim if Peter never existed. Or we could go to the other extreme that Paul, also, never existed, so we must hypothesize that all of Paul's writings were fabricated by...whom? The early church fathers: Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp, Justin Martyr? At some point we have to postulate flesh and blood people, and that becomes a far more gargantuan task than simply assuming that Jesus was an actual person who walked the earth. Of course, this doesn't prove Jesus existed, but it does suggest that presuming that Jesus never existed at all is quite a bit more far-fetched than presuming he did.
Well you failed to consider that Paul may have been lying , wasn't he the one who said that it was ok to tell a lie for God
Except that none of those people were ever worshipped as a god, while Jesus of course was. That affects the probability. Not to mention we actually have works that at least have the names of most of these people on them. We have nothing like that for Jesus, except for documents that we know are forgeries of course. Mythicism is also not just about a lack of evidence that clearly places a person in history, it's about the best explanation for the evidence we do have. There is a lot of evidence which is far better explained by a theory that Jesus was a pre-existent celestial being, not a man who lived on earth.
And Paul doesn't give names to Jesus's disciples. He never even uses the word disciples. He makes reference to "the Twelve", and he mentions Peter and James as Christians he met in Jerusalem, but he never says that they met Jesus or were his disciples.
Reality Forge You sound like someone who has never actually read Paul.
Matthew Prorok Doesn't sound like you've actually read Paul either.
As I watch this video, the audio cuts in and out. What's up?
Am I the only one who thought this was Seth until he started talking? :D
Very enlightening. I need to forward this to some people. Many things said really have been taught even in religion class, however, not as in depth and justifying things like the obvious edits and the fact that several authors hacked into one gospel.
9:30 I guess he meant Sarapis or Serapis, that was a sincretic god. Osiris was already Egyptian and not Hellenistic.
I've got the audio books for the collection of papers and the latest. Unfortunately you still have to have the book handy for the footnotes. The latest one _On the Historicity_ is excellent. 5 stars.
And no, I'm not a feminist and I don't subscribe to Atheism+. However, I still appreciate the extensive knowledge of Dr Carrier on this subject.
Rand: Why don't you believe that women are equal to men and should have as many rights?
It's only a mystery to those who have no faith.
For you are saved by grace, through faith. It is by grace And not of yourself, lest any man should boast.... It is a gift of God!
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of god/christ.
Great video.... but WHOOPS! Seth, I recognize that "media offline" screen at the end there, you use Premiere, huh? Something screwy went wrong with the render it looks like, was missing a file from your bin!
I'm assuming its your Thinking Atheist logo, right? Hehe, I saw that red screen out of the corner of my eye so it caught my attention.
+RyoHazuki224 It's a glitch I missed in the export. I simply trimmed it, so I wouldn't have to re-export after it's been shared on everybody's social media pages. Seemed to work fine. (Still irritating, though.)
*****
Hehe, I've been there plenty of times! Whats worse is when you realize something in the smack dab middle of a video that took hours to render, hours to upload, has an error or something wrong right in the middle! Ahhh... gotta love video editing! :)
Still, this was a great video and I look forward to part 2! I may even pick up Dr. Carrier's audiobook! Great interview, Seth!
We know god is real and lives outside space and time.
Of course he hasn't always lived there, only since flying machines were invented.
He used to live in a bush up a mountain (Exodus 3:4. Deuteronomy 33:16)
And sometimes in a tent on a mercy seat (Exodus 25:22 Numbers 7:89).
great interview. it's sad how many people genuinely aren't educated in history of their own religion.
and while I have as much opposition of modern feminism as the next guy, I don't see why so many people are bitching on a completely irrelevant subject.
if i heard him correct he said that the name demon basically means divine
Yep, check out the wiki on Demon, especially the Etymology section: "The Ancient Greek word δαίμων daemon denotes a spirit or divine power, much like the Latin genius or numen."
Why did I get a "Capton" Church advertisement? it was like "let's spread god's word to Europe!"
"Burned by the Internet, so often", ..that what is presented has to evolve across the spectrum of "truth" +/-, until it can be recognized by anyone who cares about the values presented in the current context. Good.
Academic discussion is best conducted from a double opposition positioning, that is taking the other proponents POV and challenging your own. It's how we are supposed to reason inside our heads before opening up the discussion.
Richard Carrier "lays it out" and adds the cross checking in detail.
The result is that it could be possible to realize the real world values and intended virtues of the topic.(?)
23:12. What? You mean trees don't have souls?
If the rest can believe in Jesus, I can believe in Sherlock Holmes, Scarlett O'Hara and Rhett Butler, Superman and Santa.
Yeah, if I thought the bible was the word of god, I would be reading it over and over and over again and meet with others to discuss the text. I would read books by others discussing the text. My whole life would be centered around memorizing and understanding the text. It is bizarre that there are many people who think it is the word of god yet don't bother to read it.
Yeah, I did that. The indoctrination and waste of time I did to myself was considerable ... because of the lie that the bible is the word of God.
@@davidfenton3910Even if it’s entirely fictitious, the Bible is still one of the most important texts in the English language, at the very least. Even if you felt your time was wasted by Christians, consider that there’s much to be learned from the ancient text. With a different perspective your time may not have been wasted.
Hi EnigmaEuslam
Thanks for your reply to this old comment.
EVEN IF IT’S ENTIRELY FICTITIOUS,
Objectively, as far as I know and can show, the bible is significantly based on philosophical planning in Plato to deceive and defraud the general public by 'Philosopher--King' rulers. The text, 'Plato and the Creation of the Hebrew Bible' lays out some of the planning and how it was used to create the bible. There are various YT vids in which the author discusses this. e.g.
ruclips.net/video/-WymCNbsAsQ/видео.html
THE BIBLE IS STILL ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT TEXTS IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE, AT THE VERY LEAST. ... CONSIDER THAT THERE’S MUCH TO BE LEARNED FROM THE ANCIENT TEXT.
*Yes absolutely!*
Because the Bible is a prime example of philosophical influence deceptively founding western civilisation, knowledge of it gives knowledge/insights into philosophical deception. Most significantly, this is an objective understanding of the ancient roots *and current nature* of western society.
The planning in Plato is still being used and like any design that works, it has been continually refined and improved. Because of well over 2000 years of use *and improvement,* the 'Religious Sense' of the bible has been genre transitioned - it's no longer outwardly religious, but is far more devastatingly effective.
EVEN IF YOU FELT YOUR TIME WAS WASTED BY CHRISTIANS,
I consider church attending Christians and most Pastors/Priests etc to be unwitting victims as I was. Those philosophically aware of what Christianity and society is and who perpetuate it; through failure to make known the truth of it; are the ones most responsible for wasting my time and doing extremely significant damage to my core of reason and hence thinking and living.
The violation through such trespass into and _'stealing'_ key parts of another's mind is atrocious. And western society is based upon and uses upgraded worse forms of it today! Western society today has billions of lovely people that have had extremely corrupting things done to their cognitive function and resultant world views and living. And because I'm still conditioned to collectivism because my familial ties were in-grafted into society, I love and feel deeply for them all.
WITH A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE YOUR TIME MAY NOT HAVE BEEN WASTED.
The time was definitely wasted in the sense that I was basing and living my life from philosophical fabrications, both in the Christian genre *and the Natural genre* which is the upgraded form of philosophical false narrative now most prominent.
Finding out the core fact that the Hebrew bible and religious beliefs from it (Christian/Islamic) are philosophical and in particular Platonic, in their roots, gives powerful perspective. So powerful that it helps penetrate the even the more deceptive and influential effects of the upgraded forms of philosophical deception today.
If you want to discuss aspects/parts of philosophical deception past or present let me know. I wouldn't want to waste all that time gaining insights into the bible, which is at its root - Plato's-philosophical-planning.
Just like the bible had it's various topics and stories the new super narrative has its own. Feel free to pick one your interested in or don't know about or add one I don't know about.
- Schooling as the prime method of conditioning/indoctrination.
- Covid virus/pandemic
- Aids virus/pandemic
- Viruses not what we've been led to think
- Jenner's vaccination as philosophical narrative
- 'Woke' Ideology
- THE terrorist attacks on that date
- Nuclear Bombs as philosophical narrative
- Hitlers Germany Holocaust etc. as philosophical narrative
- Geneva convention - war trials as philosophical narrative
- Global warming etc.
- Or other aspects topics
Happy to talk to someone that plays guitar. I sold the Ovation I imported years ago, as needed $$$. When they stopped the Lords Prayer in parliament I arranged it to some guitar on YT and told them if they didn't believe it then the expectation to pray it was not reasonable and I and presumably other Christians would take care of it. I'll upload an mp3 to my website so you can have a listen to some of what my delusional bible belief caused me to do. The guitar is about as good as I put together, but I couldn't play it now.
Found it, uploaded it, the file was dated 2014! I've come a long way since then but not my guitar playing.
Have a GREAT day EnigmaEuslam!
sincerely
david
@@davidfenton3910 Wow. That’s one hell of a response! These topics are of great interest to me but I’m a father to two small children and caring for them consumes most of my daylight hours (leaving my music work resigned to a few hours n the evening) so responding in kind isn’t typically feasible, despite the fact that I’d love to hear more of your thoughts. Ever considered using your channel to express these ideas?
I must say that it definitely doesn’t sound to me like you wasted ALL of your time. Forming a worldview this unencumbered by prevailing narratives must be worth something right? Finding a way out of the cave is worth the struggle, no?
Time to debunk also the Islam now
Great interview. I've read Carrier's books, yet I still think a historical Jesus existed.
Even if he was in a vision like this man claims then and people all over the world speak about Jim throughout the ages why not believe in him?
Because believing in things that aren't true is bad.
@@surfk9836 and how would you know that it's TRUE or not?
I've seen the Messiah next to my bed. Even without the bible and that day I seen him. I'm a believer. Most heroic and positive person ever. He deserves us to be 1 with him. Straight up. He is cool asf
@@surfk9836 so instead of believing in a book,you woild rather believe scientists who are people who are rich as fuck and you have never met lol that sure makes lots of sense. Haha. See the thing about reading a book is that you use your judgement and mind to read the book . Period. And then you use your own wisdom or mind or judgement too say to yourself If it is true it not and that's how people believe the same way anything in the world.
Jesus lives......in the imagination.
Kristo's is a Gnostic Aeon who wasn't Jewish and didn't die for your sin. Yahweh is a Demiurge and Yahshua is the replicant Archon of Kristo's created by the Demiurge. Lucifer who isn't Satan is another Archon who is extraordinarily busy on earth today via Kaballism who is in the process of fulling the myth of turning humans into Gods (via A.I. )...
Great interview ᵔᴥᵔ ★★★★★
Katalyzt
Great vid, but who were those people in the Talpiot Tomb? I know you have a background in Bayesian Stats. The probability of those particular name being found randomly on Ossuaries dating to around 70 AD is highly unlikely. Do you believe the inscriptions were faked? As I understand it the patina test came back legit. Maybe I have missed some other evidence along the way.
It was a group that included "Mother" ,"wife", "brother" and "son" , wasn't it? Much to explain either way.
Have you noticed here of late Richard is looking more and like the fourth Doctor, Tom Baker?
It's 2015 C.E.(Common Era)
Christianity was hatched by 'Rome. There was a Jesus who walked this Earth thousand of years before Cchritianity was hatched, He never saud he was the only way, never said he came to save anyone, never told anyone to follow him. His Message was Peace & Love.
Citation required.
Crowdsourced research grant, how nice.
Carrier may be self-righteous and judgemental, but that doesn't negate the fact that he's a professional historian and probably knows what he's talking about here. Just... can't you people ignore his feminism and his history with the A+ movement for a moment? It has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
We should make efforts to qualify "grow out of" when talking about our changing faiths. We mean it as the continual growth and change we experience as people, but many of the faithful view it as calling them children. They see it as meaning "growing up" when we mean "growing broad" or "gaining breadth of knowledge and changing". We should try not to accidentally condescend to people we hope to change the minds of.
The weakness in myth theory is the fact that he was not known as Jesus of Bethlehem. Everyone knew that he was from Nazareth. This is why both Matthew and Luke wrote such fanciful birth narratives. I cannot think of a single reason why Mark would have created this problem that prompted other gospel authors to twist themselves in pretzels.
Nazareth not on the map then as a town. It was a dumping area.
The Greek text said he was a Nazarine not from Nazareth. Nazarines were a Jewish sect.
Seth, the ending! lol
Seth Andrews should definitely consider doing some voice acting
He did. He uses to be a Evangelical radio host.
Sounds like the interviewer is Seth Andrews.
It’s hilarious that Carrier criticism of Atwill sounds similar to others who criticize Carrier. I think the answers lie in the middle somewhere. Perhaps in time the wrinkles will be ironed out, but right now, to the casual reader, there are obviously egos in play, but then that’s nothing new.
its a surprise to me that richard carrier is not a household name yet. at least not where i come from. his thoery about jesus is the only one that really makes any sense.
Matt K Well, at least _Carrier_ is a household name. The "Richard" part not so much.
Not to mention the whole zeitgeist crowd that pushed the jesus myth and got him to actually consider it!
The original Mystery to begin with is Paul's--- the mystery of Godliness, whose focal point is given Holy Spirit birth, Holy Spirit speech and existence from mystical incarnation, not at all Natural and human. By Holy Spirit her 'child' was conceived, just as soon as such conception could be believed: So she brings forth, quite against the grain, so contrary to childbirth and real human pain. The real reason why there is no "second coming" for the figure Jesus is that He Never Left!, and is both multiplied everywhere and present to the end of the age---- that of the age of Pisces. All the evil aspects of 'Gospels' come from secondary and tertiary aspects, which despite Atwill, are greatly influenced by Rome nonetheless. Furthermore, the writings called apocryphal were, for example dozens of earlier "gospels". When one has decades upon decades of familiarity with all these writings, it points to a conclusion of necessity---- that since Moses' Adam was the clay prototype of the earthly man, Jesus is Paul's workmanship as a second Moses-type which is emulating in mystical typology the attributes of the Spiritual man, Jesus, but not hindered by the secret that , bodily, he's an ICON, a statue. This typology has long existed in both word and theory, but not in both Spirit and Truth. For 2000 years the integrity of the mythical Christ figure has been the Cause waiting for the rebel to perform it. It surprises Gentiles to hear rabbis like Mark Golub tell people," Moses and Abraham, nor the ark of Noah are to be taken literally" on show after show of JEM {Jewish Ed. Media}---- and STILL one other area, Gematria, is being grossly left out of consideration, for lack of Knowledge. The necessary evil, both in "Paul's milk-- and the accompanying lie he hints about" is that Great Teaching can actually use a bit of deception to accomplish a justifiable , and magnanimous end. This is why a Jesus could be invented. Plato's Republic, believe it or not, looks like a parallel blueprint to the positive side of Christian doctrine, but the lies and slanders and unsubstantiated vilification--- I can certainly see Rome lapping it up, the way the Germans systematically decimated everything but the Jews' last breath. The innermost nexus of Good which is left {for the Gospel} is the performance of the Last Banquet of Remembrance, of testing spirits, of proving same, in which all things ARE actually prepared. And guess where these judgments and revelations will be consummated--- in the only other Place the Bible resides, the courts of our Nation--- what's left of it.