It is interesting how some people with identity problems try to solve their problem by telling Black People they must not have an identity. Why do they never tell that BS to Europeans.
I love Thomas Chatterton Williams, but I do think he has some class blindness: claiming that if parents don't like what their children are being exposed to in public school they can put their child in a different school or "get involved with the school" presupposes that parents are not working two jobs to keep their children fed and housed. Too many parents are forced to trust the public schools not to indoctrinate their children with ideas they consider harmful. We should always err on the side of "moral panic" when it comes to children, who are completely incapable of defending themselves from adults. I am adamantly opposed to banning books in public libraries, or from colleges. But banning certain books from curricula for children from k through age 8 is perfectly acceptable and even necessary. I am not fully comfortable with Chris Rufo, but I would prefer that law makers be over protective of children ages k through 8 than take a laissez-faire approach to their safety and well being.
Good episode. I don’t agree with everything Rufo is doing but I also disagree with Thomas in that these ideas cannot be challenged and overturned simply through debate and conversation. From everything I’ve seen, debating the woke crowd is pointless ..
It certainly feels pointless a lot of the times. Even when you take the time to engage and respond at length, trying to collect your thoughts and cover as many angles as you can think of, giving credit to arguments where it is due, extending olive branches...etc. a lot of the times the response you get is basically "Nice essay you wrote there to justify your internalized racism/homophobia/transphobia!"
Thomas's poinit (as usual) is a really good one, and one that I hope FAIR keeps front and center in their minds. Whatever you think of how bad ssome woke stuff is, the big mistake is to throw the baby out with the bathwater. The easier thing to do is precisely what John McWhorter has regrettably done: since these 'woke' things are bad, anything that comes from the same places, carries the same labels, or sounds like, those things must be bad too. The better way is to engage it all in point-by-point analysis so that one can condemn what is bad while keeping what is good. Thomas is one of the few people I see today doing exactly that. It's why I appreciate his nuanced takes so much!
Yes but many have tried that already. Trying to challenge and debate a truly “woke” person on a point by point basis is futile. I think you’ll realize this after you try it a few times. You will very quickly come to the conclusion that you have better ways to spend your time. I guess this would depend on your hobbies and age though
Listen to Mcwhorter a bit more and people like Bret Weinstein and others similar. They have spent years trying to debate and change minds. It hasn’t worked. I think you and Thomas are a bit unrealistic here and maybe too optimistic
@@brianmeen2158, You might be missing my point, or maybe I didn't explain well. I'm not saying that "we" should "debate" them with an idea of refuting them point-by-point. I'm saying that we should try as much as possible to either converse with them or think really hard about what is good in their position so that we can leave the bad but preserve the rest. Maybe that isn't everybody's thing. I confess to finding at least some value in the ideas that often go by the term "woke," even when I find problematic excesses. I find the general message of Kendi's work to be potentially valuable even when I find some of his arguments and conclusions flawed. But that means I shouldn't just see my goal as to demolish Kendi's arguments, but think hard about what is good in them and what isn't. Too few people do that nowadays.
![DDG & G Herbo - Nosey [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/I9Ra0Zc2NlQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Don’t agree with you guys on everything, but this was my favorite episode yet
It is interesting how some people with identity problems try to solve their problem by telling Black People they must not have an identity. Why do they never tell that BS to Europeans.
I ❤ Thomas
I love Thomas Chatterton Williams, but I do think he has some class blindness: claiming that if parents don't like what their children are being exposed to in public school they can put their child in a different school or "get involved with the school" presupposes that parents are not working two jobs to keep their children fed and housed.
Too many parents are forced to trust the public schools not to indoctrinate their children with ideas they consider harmful.
We should always err on the side of "moral panic" when it comes to children, who are completely incapable of defending themselves from adults.
I am adamantly opposed to banning books in public libraries, or from colleges.
But banning certain books from curricula for children from k through age 8 is perfectly acceptable and even necessary.
I am not fully comfortable with Chris Rufo, but I would prefer that law makers be over protective of children ages k through 8 than take a laissez-faire approach to their safety and well being.
This dude is an original thinker. I'm being challenged, and I like it.
You people don't know who you are. Speak for yourself, keep out of Black folks conversation.
Good episode. I don’t agree with everything Rufo is doing but I also disagree with Thomas in that these ideas cannot be challenged and overturned simply through debate and conversation. From everything I’ve seen, debating the woke crowd is pointless ..
It certainly feels pointless a lot of the times. Even when you take the time to engage and respond at length, trying to collect your thoughts and cover as many angles as you can think of, giving credit to arguments where it is due, extending olive branches...etc. a lot of the times the response you get is basically "Nice essay you wrote there to justify your internalized racism/homophobia/transphobia!"
This is great
Great Watchmen reference!
That was very good.
If you're going to be pro human you must confront the militarism of this country, corporate capture of the economy and government.Also class chasms.
Just a point you can have public prayer in France.
but if you couldn't identify different minorities, how could you target money to certain groups for social help.
Social help is based on individuals and how much they earned.
Thomas's poinit (as usual) is a really good one, and one that I hope FAIR keeps front and center in their minds. Whatever you think of how bad ssome woke stuff is, the big mistake is to throw the baby out with the bathwater. The easier thing to do is precisely what John McWhorter has regrettably done: since these 'woke' things are bad, anything that comes from the same places, carries the same labels, or sounds like, those things must be bad too. The better way is to engage it all in point-by-point analysis so that one can condemn what is bad while keeping what is good. Thomas is one of the few people I see today doing exactly that. It's why I appreciate his nuanced takes so much!
Agreed!
Yes but many have tried that already. Trying to challenge and debate a truly “woke” person on a point by point basis is futile. I think you’ll realize this after you try it a few times. You will very quickly come to the conclusion that you have better ways to spend your time. I guess this would depend on your hobbies and age though
Listen to Mcwhorter a bit more and people like Bret Weinstein and others similar. They have spent years trying to debate and change minds. It hasn’t worked. I think you and Thomas are a bit unrealistic here and maybe too optimistic
@@brianmeen2158,
You might be missing my point, or maybe I didn't explain well. I'm not saying that "we" should "debate" them with an idea of refuting them point-by-point. I'm saying that we should try as much as possible to either converse with them or think really hard about what is good in their position so that we can leave the bad but preserve the rest.
Maybe that isn't everybody's thing. I confess to finding at least some value in the ideas that often go by the term "woke," even when I find problematic excesses. I find the general message of Kendi's work to be potentially valuable even when I find some of his arguments and conclusions flawed. But that means I shouldn't just see my goal as to demolish Kendi's arguments, but think hard about what is good in them and what isn't. Too few people do that nowadays.