Unfiltered | Was CODESA agreement fair for all? 18 July 2023
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- Опубликовано: 17 июл 2023
- As the country celebrates Mandela Day, we are reminded of the difficult road that led to today's democratic dispensation. While others believe that the necessary compromises had to be made to achieve democracy, others lament what they call the selling out of the majority of citizens, who still languish in poverty and despair. Can today's high inequality be blamed on the compromises reached during the CODESA negotiations? And what were these compromises? Joining us for this discussion are Pallo Jordan, Former ANC CODESA Negotiator, Former PAC CODESA delegate Jaki Seroke and Robin Carlisle, former Democratic Party CODESA delegate.
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I've realized that we are forgiving people who didn't ask for forgiveness
Forgiven for what?
@@mannetjie3248u have to remember that people who tortured black people(not their descendants) during apartheid are still alive and they don't seem to regret what they did or apologize.
Our people are very weak. I don't understand what's the obsession with racist white people who hate Blacks.
The questions that need to be asked and answered.
We were sold out, no two ways about it.
We need to revisit every single agreement.
We South Africans, not you foreigner, were sold out about a typical African style leadership who is more interested in self enrichment than developing and leading this country.
The fact that we don’t have the minutes of the agreement, and we still have no economic freedom is the clear indication that we were sold. I mean after almost 30 years of ANC rule, we’re still landless.
We need the minutes of CODESA before it's too late
Get a copy of the constitution 🤣🤣🤣
@@BigMeech1 I have read the constitution that's why I want to find out what really happened at CODESA
@@Mushlanga I'm joking bro, I guess you have better luck finding the hidden bible chapters before those minutes 🤣🤣🤣
Our struggle was for land, it has always been about our land" mama Nomzamo Madikizela told us this until she went into her grave
Why would the panel only include 'architects' of that Codesa and not the demographic that is affected by that agreement?
EVERYONE is affected.
What Demographic is that?
63% unemployed youth
its the start
An Economical CODESA is a great idea!!
And it's long overdue.
We need another CODESA!in 2024!
I think we had coupler Codesas already, but so far, nothing that the community wanted to be rectified or normalised to the whole of the South African community has not been achieved or rectified to date. I would like to agree that we need to have another Codesa. The Codesa I am expecting is the one where I expect most people from the EFF members to be in Codesa as well. No one of the people who were chosen to be part of Codesa has ever mentioned anything that the EFF is pressing about which is equal icing and distribution of all the available resources to each and every South African people, which the EFF keep on preaching about in each and every meeting they held, as they want that to happen so that each and every S.A person is going to be happy to see that happening, as it was something that never happened during apartheid as they were only given crumbs in the country where they considered as their country, where the whites were comfortable about the type of lives they were living. To tell the truth, ANC, Codesa, and the rest of the other political parties never even attempted to figure out about that. They were the only people who were concentrating on what they were benefiting from, not even thinking about the community. As I say, in Codesa, if most of those people are included from the EFF party, the changes needed by the community might be different. ANC party, including Codesa,did absolutely nothing for the community, except misery to the whole community, as they are still continuing to do that. Therefore, they need to be stopped.
When the land oa SA was seized,there was no negotiations and concessions. That's where the problems started. Till this day, still taking concessions and destroying one another
Are you referring to the central African Bantu settlers seizing KhoiSan land 1500 yrs ago?
@@mannetjie3248Khoisan are African not a different race, coloureds today are mixed race. Settlers put borders in Africa before then Africa was 1 country no south Africa or Botswana, if settlers found Khoisan in the cape then great, Zulus in KZN and Xhosas in the Eastern Cape, my point is we cannot believe a history written by our invaders as they seek to divide and conquer the Africans.
Africa for Africans period
We might have to take up arms to seize our land from the white settler community mtasekhaya.
@@mannetjie3248 what source informs you that all of South Africa was occupied by Khoi-San during any era??
@@mannetjie3248 Have you ever heard of Jan van Riebeek?Seeing that you know a lot about Africa
Which privileges did the oppressor give away?
Thanks to all for showing up and sharing their views. and yes we need this conversation as the nation.
ONLY the EFF can overcome the land problem which will most likely lead to equality
Sae way it lead to equality in Zimbabwe ?
Worked so well in Zim where the politically connected all scored farms, sorry for the rest of you.
@@shanaazcloete8531south africa is already a Zimbabwe for 40million black south africans..j
Yes I agree with you
Every Farting Fool (EFF) will give most land to its greedy, ravenous fat 🐽🐷🐖 leaders like in Zimbostan.
There's a growing need to review the Grooteschur,Victor Venter, and Codesa minutes
I would be interested if you could offer more insight on this. Thanks for the enlightenment
A certain old man in UK once said, "Madiba took us this far, now It's our responsibility to take over to the finish line
Where did he take us
@@pareleshamase6859 I was just quoting and getting carried away on my own air balloon. If you refuse my earlier comment,you will appreciate that I'm not quite resolved with the meetings of Groote Schuur and Victor Verster,I can go on and on if you still inquisitive about my position in all this grotesque state of liberty,just one more meeting for your knowledge,the Lornehill meeting???
There's no need to factor in information that is, on the face it, irrelevant. Link it to my question. Where did Mandela take us? It's a straightforward question. I'd like for u to educate my inquiring mind.
@@pareleshamase6859 Mandela ushered a country to peace by convincing 40 million South Africans to forgive their evil oppressors as he had forgiven..
Madiba sold us out period. The facts speak for themselves.
Sizwe will be dismissed after this show.😐. WMC...
Why?
I agree with that assessment. He is touching the wrong issues that will not sit well with the minority . PP Mkhwebane is facing such bcz she investigated the untouchable.
Hahaha if you want to be safe in SA, just do everything thuli does.
🤡
@@bhekienxumalo it's on purpose 😅 elections around the corner the only card anc and eff combined left with, shockingly the eff hasn't tasted power yet😂
They picked the best person to conduct this interview, sizwe did his research🤝
1990 / 1991 / 1992 CODESA 1 & 2 Multi Party Negotiating Forum ( MPNF ) Agreement Or Deal It Was A Compromise , Sell Out , So Called Transition And 34 Years Empty Promises Under Government Of National Unity ( GNU ) ANC Led Government Till Present Till Present.
NB : Not Yet Uhuru.
Who is in possession of, or has custody of, the historical records for the CODESA negotiations? In what form does it exist? Does it exist in more than one part? Someone should write a book based on the historical records.
He who owns the means of production, controls the world....
Can the public be furnished with the minutes of those negotiations? Plse
We are still due a conflagration, it can be deferred, yes, but it eventually will happen. No two ways about that.
Who compromised the most during those CODESA negotiations. If the far right and the far left parties didn't partake in the negotiations why were they called multiparty negotiations?
CODESA was a scam
we need a NATIONAL DIALOUGE
Hmmmm im starting a Revolution with my influences for an economic codesa ,since we are now Blacks that are educated, we cud bring Change and justice, not these fallen angels Government we have.
Here we have taken significant strides toward emanicipating ourselves from the Nato/USA conquest, this one domestic conquest can be undone as well,only if we show some backbone
why is another coutries law applicable in s.a
Negotiations were not needed. We were supposed to take back what belonged to us the same way the Europeans did.
Sad
Nelson Mandela is the most celebrated human to this racists
You can see that it most, duh! it only favour connected political ppl. ANC flopped after Mbeki. now it's just old ppl getting fat... then sleep well with full stomach literally. We lost of fathers and mothers during struggle for nothing. Chris Hani was right. I hate ANC with passion.
We want Cyril Ramaphosa to come and answer here infront of the national tv
After spending how much time? of how much sentence he was given? The man was given a life sentence and nothind less or more, slip of the tongue
The Question should be" Did CODESA leave the Governing Party with enough resources to govern, if so can we list them!
Who failed then?
Dr Jordan
Our negotiated settlement was truly a victory to transition power to the oppressed. It was never gonna resolve poverty, inequality, racism, etc... we needed govt programs to resolve those... and we failed
The oppressors had maintained power by controlling primary and secondary means of production and economic power...The oppressed are still oppressed with no economic power..
@sengamemela3720 yes that's true, but was that the failure of CODESA? The true purpose of codesa was not economic transformation... we needed economic govt programs for that... most of all, we needed economic education & training of the oppressed... that never happened... instead we created a black elitist wealthy group thru BEE
@@GavinTremble Accoding to Jacobus Du Plessis minister of finance in 1992, they were no economists in CODESA and he says that was the biggest mistake. I agree with Mnr Du Plessis, a political settlement without any economic plan was like building a house on the sand. According to Du Plessis, SAs economy was already in ICU in 1992. And in 1994 all primary means of production were in transfered to private business and black politicians given BEE deals...
40 million Black South Africans with no capital assets and self confidence, stuck with a system of democracy that favors only self preservation and private wealth for those who benefited from apartheid and those who want to hold on to power at all costs...
@sengamemela3720 I agree Senga, hence the reason I say again... Codesa was about a political settlement... full stop... But the leaders neglected the economic transformation of that settlement, which was so important.
@@GavinTremble we are in unison..Sir
Did we use theHarare declaration as a cornerstone in those negotiations
We would be very naive to blame everything that is wrong in SA today from the high crime rate, broken transport system, collapse of public services, collapse of SOE's on Codesa.
What were the actual aims of the Codesa in abolishing apartheid complete, which was what the South African people were expecting to happen. Yes, the question of land distribution was very important, but it did not happen to date. Since the ANC was in power, S.A. people were watching the changes which they expected changes to them were happening or not. It was not going to be easy for the ANC to achieve what the people wanted to be changed. The people were the only people who knew what areas needed changes, as they were the ones who were still feeling the pinch. After people like Julius Malema and the gang, who started to realise and to listen and experiencing those daily complaints, as they were mingling a lot with the community, they realised that what ANC was trying to do for the nation was not even close to what the nation was expecting, as the corruption was gradually starting to show up evenmore. As the corruption was getting deeper and deeper, through Julius Malema and some of his friends noticed what the nation was complaining about it affects their families as well. That was where Julius and those guys started to think as to what are they going to do about that, as they start to rebel against the ANC. Please guys, don't take me wrong if i say that Julius might have been benefiting from what ANC was doing, but because his family and many of his friends were affected by that unstoppable corruption was doing to the nation. After Julius and his gang had figured out as to how they can try to expose the corruption. That's when they decided to form their party. As most of the people's complaints were the countries resources, yes the resources were there, but still not equally distributed, as the ANC and their families didn't affected by that, as they are in government. If the distribution was changed, it was only in their families because of its corruption.
How did these traitors get acsess to your office? surley this is illegal?
Can we see sunset closes to be answerable to your question
In order to forgive we need land🤗
Lol the reality is ANC is hurtless and they could take pressure more than all other parties. I honestly feel sorry for PAC the leadership of PAC was bit soft and couldn't contain pressure.
After Codesa we had 5% growth and along came Zuma and corruption, if SA continued growing at 5% we would not be were we are.
It's always gonna be Zuma's fault isn't now?
1990 / 1991 / 1992 CODESA 1 & 2 Multi Party Negotiating Forum ( MPNF ) Agreement Or Deal Was Not Fair To All Africans Azanians Citizens Communities People , Corruption , Criminality And Fraud Has Been Highly Defended Or Protected At All Cost Under ANC Government Till Present.
NB : Not Yet Uhuru.
'Azania'...such a beautiful ancient Greek name for the east coast of Africa 😇
Listen call a scholar like Pro Lumu mba of kenya .and pan africanist from zambia to discuss this
What is so special about kenya and zambia
Fake Qualifications Joordan kwaaaaa that's why we sold out
I've learn nothing New from the guests.... clearly south Africa is doomed we have people Dilly dalling on land issue and transformation.
If they had messed with property rights more than they have it would have left the country in ruin
The narrator🚩🚩🚩
It is patently clear we shall not achieve Uhuru under the tutelage of politicians. You, yes you, must seize freedom individually without the politician or waiting on others who are not as intellectually lethargic as you are.
Another problem is SABC bringing wrong people to the show, these old men on the screen are talking Rubbish
When the host mentioned the word Parlo Jordan, it's a turn off by the host. Parlo Jordan is a disgraced fake doctor. I just stopped watching the video
Single player, 30yrs ...ANC.
What does that mean?
Wow European destroyed our Country you are so worried about the single player for 30years but you are forgetting that your NP killed a of us
It all depends who you ask
Robin Carlyle's defensiveness in response to Ntate Jordan's clarification on Mandela's role in CODESA.
😂
your content seems scripted and never actually asking the hard hitting question always beating around the bush
Where does compensation came from as the Khoisan/coloured was the prime owners of SA.
You who is KHw Xam people are the owners of this land you are so wrong because that is coming from Europeans
Then give Khoisans the land
I sometimes wish I was part of the cohort that sold you out, there is practically zero consequences for selling black people out save an unseemly bronze statue or two in affluent suburbs.