Also Elder Holland’s response: “We will keep sending our missionaries out to knock on people’s doors to promote our agenda and try to convert people to our lifestyle, regardless of whether they asked for it or not”
@@coyotelong4349 😊 That's not to say that there aren't good, decent religious folks out there (my terrific family included)... but still, when he cries, it sickens me because those tears are not for the LGBTQ+ folks that have lost their lives to suicide because of the church... it's for himself... it's for his reputation...
I once got into trouble while teaching a course as a grad assistant at BYU on issues re multicultural education. I raised the particular concerns of LGBTQ kids in the public schools, how they commit suicide at 17 times the rate of the general population, how district policy requires teachers to disclose any threats of suicide or self-harm to school administrators or be potentially personally liable if a student goes through with it. I was reported to the department chair. I was tattled on because I dared to speak up on an LGBTQ issue (& on-topic, given the unit) in a BYU classroom to future public school teachers who are certain to be confronted by harsh reality one day. Someone thought I was an advocate, which was a no-no. I know what academic freedom is. I have a law degree. I've read the cases. I was presenting factual content pertinent to the course, so I was good with the boss (if a little bit passionate). That was over 20 years ago. The episode still feels like a gut punch. Kids are still killing themselves.
It really is incredible that these people are claiming they love and stand with LGBTQ teens yet turn a massive blind eye to the suicide rate. I tried to commit suicide twice as a teen because of my parents intense bigotry to the LGBTQ community and me being bisexual, my mental health tanked. Both times it was less “my life is so miserable, I genuinely want to die” and more “my life is so miserable, I will do anything as a cry for help.” I never wanted to die. Every time suicidal thoughts came to my mind, both times I attempted, I thought “nothing will change. This might just be my only option left.” I wanted to live. But I thought death was better than the life I was living. Thank god for my friends, my brother, and the Trevor lifeline, I could always count on them for support. My brother is more of a parental figure than my parents, he is what I think being a parent entails. My friends were not uncomfortable with who I was, they were still my friends (and miraculously, I became friends with two other bisexuals, in Utah of all places 🤯). Once I could drive, it was much easier. Rarely saw my parents after I could, I would drive to a parking lot and stay there for hours on end, or to a friend’s house. It is such a blessing for those of us with toxic/abusive parents.
@@elliefuller3667 similar story here. 24 now, and already the power dynamic did a complete 180. Its crazy how a few years of radio silence can change peoples opinions. Cant say its better this way though. Constantly feel on edge whenever I do talk to my parents. Best way I can describe it now is like my parents are walking a rope bridge across a chasm toward me. Im on the other side holding a knife to the ropes waiting for them to flinch.
If people would only read the scriptures, they'd understand that the Lord loves them. We understand the burden it is for members that are attracted to same sex. We are all complicated and many do have a same sex attraction. The Lord taught being chaste, and if same sex members think it's any easier for some to not indulge in sex before marriage, they are wrong, it can be a burden for many, and so, we all try our best to live the commandments, and He shows us the way to make it bearable and to give services to others, thereby lessening that constant evaluation or ourselves and thinking only of us. This life was not meant to be easy. I've been a member since I was 21, I had to change my lifestyle and it wasn't easy, it certainly was not. These kids who take their lives are constantly thinking because they can't be perfect and can't totally stop the attraction, they they are broken and never be comfortable, that isn't true, they can't be perfect, but we're not perfect, and the Lord will judge us with the perfect judgement of mercy and justice
I love you guys and all that you do. Thank you for speaking on this subject. I graduated from BYU-Idaho in April and your helping me understand and heal. Thank you 🙏🏾
My English teacher (decades ago) would give you a gold medal for writing “your helping” and correct instead of the commonly used “you helping” which is incorrect. She joined the Peace Corps after retiring and went to Africa to teach English.
I live in the UK, please do not get me started on how you pronounce PROCESS. You can however see how languages develop, when we have subtitles when people from certain parts of US are interviewed.
I’m a teacher in Utah and was made to take down a sign that says “everyone is welcome here” and has hearts underneath with ombré colors starting from white to black and then has a heart with gay pride colors. I was told I had to take it down because gay pride is considered political. It made me cry.
Sounds like you could put up the same message work no images then you still make students feel welcome and they can’t claim political because it’s not specific to any group
There are teachers in Portland with Black Lives Matter flags in their classrooms so that’s just ridiculous that you can’t have what you put up. I’m sorry.
Thank you for this episode. In case you're unaware, using "bipolar" as a negative adjective is painful to those like me who have bipolar disorder. Thank you :)
@@tabithatodd4302 I'm not sure how judging bipolar as negative or enjoyable is helpful. It's a medical condition that people live with. It's not a condition that you really grow out of and it is extremely challenging to live with. People are very aware of their condition and often find relief with proper medication although they are often not diagnosed early in life. Just from a child who grew up with a bipolar dad.
Thank you, Brother Jeff, for further alienating the younger generations - you know, the ones who are supposed to be the church's future. The leaders are fully aware how fast the church could die with the loss of just one generation, and yet...
Gen Z is growing up in a world with much more inclusivity and tolerance for unique peoples like the LGBTQ community. Gen Alpha will have that even more when they are teens. The generation raised by Gen Z (Gen B?) will be highly respectful and loving of all, I’m quite sure of that. I would not be surprised if the church lost nearly all members once Gen B or whatever the name is are being raised. The next generation or two will probably spell out the self-destruction of the Mormon church.
So do you still believe in Christ? If so, can you please tell me how you reconcile in your mind supporting something he so clearly condemns? I’m genuinely curious.
@@841577 who is the “he’ in your question? Is it Christ or the man Jeffrey Holland who says he represents Christ. Those could not be more opposite in my mind and entirely change the question. I’m not sure what you are asking.
@@841577 you are asking if I support “Something” Christ “so clearly condemns”. What is the “something”? Is it being gay? Is it Jeffrey r Holland and his speech? I feel Christ clearly condemns the abusive narcissistic language as well as the calls for attacks on an already vulnerable people. So if that’s what you mean, there is no problem reconciling that in my mind. Loving Christ and condemning Holland’s speech is easy. If you are saying how do I reconcile in my mind supporting gays and believing in Christ, that is also an easy answer. First, I don’t believe in the hypothesis you lay out, “Something he so clearly condemns”. I could argue this from many angles. I don’t think Christ condemns gays. Also, though I love the New Testament, it was gathered long long after Christ and is full of mistakes. But, I still love it, and I read it looking for how Christ interacts with people. He meets each person where they are at and seeks to increase their faith and build them up. I feel love and acceptance from my God. It’s why when I chose to come out at age 56 after fighting my attraction for women for 14 years, I decided to stay in the LDS church. I decided to sit in church and feel God’s love and somehow put on armor to fight off the arrows of hate and misunderstanding coming at me. I thought it would be a growing experience for everyone in the congregation. I will no longer remain in the LDS church because I feel I can’t change anything and I don’t want to signal any support for the narcissistic and abusive organization that it is. Yes, I choose to believe in Christ and if the divine that I feel isn’t Christ, that’s ok because I use Christ as my example and wait to see what surprises await me on the other side. I feel peace, love, and joy every second I am with my lesbian partner. I have found true happiness, finally.
I am not gay but a young educated black man. Meaning to say that understand how these guys feel on a minority level. This is one for the best podcast of moment stories that I have listened to. I love you guys. Much love and success to you guys. I felt a discrimination in the church. Very passive aggressive. And to use more like comments on so-called God's pulpit it's just sickening. Can anybody really see at this time that this is God's true church. I think you have to be pretty far out there to say that this is God's only true church. In my opinion these guys at the top or just sick people that's my personal opinion. And full of delusion. Thank you John for a ver y very wonderful podcast. ❤️👍
Pathetic and sad. I am a BYU graduate of 1982. I came out in 1985 and divorced my wife. I was a returned missionary, temple worker, in the bishopric, and I am happily married to the man of my dreams of now 33 years. I have seen too many senseless suicides in my 40 year teaching career in Utah. The LDS Church is a cult of unwavering stubbornness. It won’t change. Let us embrace ourselves without the church. Please. President/Apostle Holland is wrong.
I say let them have the church, I am done. It saddens me because the church was a positive force in my life as a youth in a lot of ways but in others it was not.
Good on you. I checked out as an LGBT youth when the church used it's power and authority globally to try and battle gay people in California. One state. No church or religious establishment should have as much power or influence as they do.
It's galling that Elder Holland would speak against divisiveness, when it's the church itself that champions divisiveness. The whole "us vs the world" teaching is divisiveness.
We actually briefly talked about this, this morning in seminary class. Its a really sad thing. The popular opinion is that we love elder Holland and we accept LGBTQ people because they are gods children too. So we were quite torn between the two sides. It was a sad feeling in class and there are three bi and Mormon girls in my seminary. I feel like that kinda opened up a wound for them…
I’m a Bi member of the church too. I was attracted to women before I was attracted to men. But I found that I could love both sexes and am attracted to both. I’m very disappointed by what was said. I thought the church was making progress. This feels like a huge backslide. Our bishops 16 yr old committed suicide Last year and I’m very certain it was because she was LGBTQ.
@@glitterxgore6943 Stay strong please. I wish I would have said this to those girls in my class. We knows gods plan, and he loves you so much. I hope you can help other members who have come out to stay strong. 🙂
I think You are not understanding...nor seeing REALLY SEING I FEEL SAD CAUSE OF THAT He said Many TIMES THEY WEPT FOR THIS SITUATIONS. IT KS SIMPLE:HE SAID""""" LOVE ONE ANOTHER AND KEEP YOUR BELIEVES THAT ARE TRUE ABOUT FAMILY"".
This wasn’t really the focus of his talk. LGBTQ was not the focus of his talk. He’s concerned about “specific things” being taught at BYU that goes against the gospel. He even said he didn’t want to go into the lgbtq policies. Listen to his talk again. It was not his focus.
As an active LDS member, it seems to me that the plan of salvation is for all of mankind, not just straight people. There are more than 500 million LGBTQIA on earth at the present time. Elder Holland should focus on his insight into the Plan of Happiness for those people. We are instructed to take the gospel to "every nation, kindred, tongue and people." What is our message to this large group? You are not wanted? You are a mistake? Why do I believe that this is not the Lord's way, nor his gospel. He told us to love all others, even our enemies. How about our brothers and sisters who may differ in their gender and sexuality perceptions? Should we not strive to love and serve them also? Instead of encouraging Church members to discriminate, hate or even commit violent acts against this community? This is very sad.
Be very careful … a living apostle of god has spoken .. you are in jeopardy of loosing your salvation … as Dallin H Oaks says .. “it is wrong to criticize your leaders - even if they are wrong” Get in line and be quite. Obedience is far more important to The Church then Honesty and Integrity. Good luck with that .. we resigned and are far better for it. Honesty and integrity is FAR MORE important to Us then The Church that literally has massively hypocritical leaders continuously gaslighting whole groups of people.
@@thyasyn100 ya … and because of Judas’s guilt he killed himself. The Mormon leaders are literally documented, verified and proven liars period … we all clearly know this. ANYONE actually honest with themselves and with God knows, Jesus Christ would never tell his “only true church” to whitewash, cover up, deceive and outright lie about its own history, finances and doctrines. NEVER! That one fact alone proves Mormonism is a total sham.
@@ace00057 oh my my .. ignorance is BLISS for this poor soul “Dennis” … The Mormon jesus LITERALLY does not exist … neither does the Mormon god. The Mormon god once was a “created” mortal man, now lives on a star called kolob, likely has many many wives that bare billions of his children, and is the literal father of Satan, AND the Mormon god “ironically” teaches Mormons can become gods exactly like Satan desires to be a god. The Mormon god is a created, COMPLETELY UNBIBLICAL, polytheistic (multiple - endless - gods) polygamist, FALSE god. Christians do not believe in the same god or gospel as Mormons in any way shape or form. Christians believe in The One and Only True God Jesus Christ found in the Bible. Mormonism literally worships false gods. As Aposed to The True and Living Jesus Christ who is literally The One and Only God, creator of the universe and savior of the world! True Christians follow the one and ONLY Lord, God and savior Jesus Christ... not the false Mormon christ who is Satan’s bother. The deception is clearly revealed. If the false Mormon prophets were actually honest they would name their church an honest name. The most honest name of the Mormon church is The Church of S A T A N S B R O T H E R of Latter-Day Satan’s Brothers and Sisters That way the whole world would know the false “entity” that Mormons believe in. Also, that name would not offend ANY Mormon because it is in perfect harmony with Mormon doctrine. We all now know - full well - the false Mormon prophets (past and present) are literally documented, verified and proven whitewashers, deceivers and outright liars of Mormon history, doctrines and finances. They are literal proven liars. Even the false Mormon prophets are now attempting to explain away - on their very own web site - many historical facts that were previously called “anti-Mormon lies” - now the Mormon leaders are admitting that they are actually not lies, but actual true historical facts. Although much of their explanations are still whitewashed and full of flowery manipulation … why?? Because the False Mormon Prophets are literally “fearful liars” Revelations 21:8. Not telling the full truth - covering up - whitewashing - are ALL forms of deception, manipulation, and straight up lying!! Again…. The Mormon leaders are literally documented, verified and proven liars period … we all clearly know this. ANYONE actually honest with themselves and with God knows, Jesus Christ would never tell his “only true church” to whitewash, cover up, deceive and outright lie about its own history, finances and doctrines. That one fact alone proves Mormonism is a total false gospel. I truly pray that God will give you, and all Mormons, “eyes to see” and “ears to hear” the true gospel of Jesus Christ filled with unconditional love and grace. We pray in HIS name Jesus Christ, amen 🙏 Jesus is enough ❤️😇✝️🙏
Yes! They always "nearly" break down, but never do fully. Just watch every conference talk. It invariably happens during the last 2 minutes. You have to wait for it.
I've been out of the church for a good 10ish years. I've been married to another woman for 5 years now. My entire family is super supportive. When my believing family members and family members that have recently left the church feel hurt about this it makes me mad. Not for me because I'm beyond caring anymore. It make me mad for them. When they ask me about how I feel about it, I mention a church talk I remember from when I was a teen. A boy who carried a snake from a mountain a the snake bites him. The snake then says "you knew what I was when you picked me up." That's exactly how I feel about the church. They never changed and they never will. It is to be expected. The church (not the people) will always act like they are kind, but I have yet to see it unless there is an ulterior motive behind it. I told my siblings today they just shot themselves in the foot again and if they don't figure out how to stop shooting themselves in the foot they will eventually bleed to death. I did not consider how ever until half way through this video that they could also amputate a leg to survive, and they don't seem to care.
@Paper Magpie @Paper Magpie I totally get where you are coming from. For the longest time I hated Mormons, all of them. Like I really hated them. I cannot describe how much I hated Mormons. I also had every reason to hate Mormonism it did alot of harm in my life. Then I got a job where I worked with Mormons, ALOT. I would travel for the job across the entire Rocky mountain west. Utah, Idaho, Nevada, Wyoming, Colorado, Arizona, Montana, and California. I was determined to keep hating Mormonism and the people. I was made and angry and just hated the because I was so so hurt. What I found was it is only a few percentage in every stake and ward that are really judgmental to the bone. Yes every once in a while you will get an entire small town that is all that way or a stake that is all that way. The majority of them really are well meaning people, they are just doing the best they can with the tools they have been taught and or given. What I found from that job was I was judging every person by the church they were in and not the individual by what the individual was doing. It's not the individual, it is the machine that is the Church. What I learned from working in churches, BYU Provo and Idaho and at times in the different church office buildings is that it really is the church, not the people. I also found that I was the bigot, not the people. I would garment check people and if I could tell they had garments on I would immediately hate them and thought they couldn't be trusted and my guard would go up immediately. One day about 6 months into this job I didn't have coffee at the Hotel I was staying because I woke up late because I had been out drinking the night before. About halfway through the day I started getting a really bad headache. This woman asked me if there was anything she could do to help get rid of my headache and I said, "I hate to mention this because I don't want to be disrespectful, but I didn't have a cup of coffee this morning so I'm getting a caffeine migraine." She then asked me what I wanted from Starbucks and I told her just a cup of coffee. She literally went and got me a cup of coffee and would not let me pay her back. This lady and I just talked and became such good friends. By the end of the day I was sad because I knew I would never see this woman again. Because of HIPAA laws I also would never be able to contact her again. That night as I had a 5-Hour drive back home I realized that I was the bigoted one not the Mormon people. I was so sad that I had never seen this in myself. After having that job I had so many positive experiences with Mormon people that there's no way I could hate them anymore. Yes there are judgmental bigots in the Mormon church but there are also very judgmental bigoted X-Moes and I was definitely one of them. I really hate that I ever was that way. I also really wish that I could talk about what my job was because I feel like it gave me a very unique perspective on Mormons and the Mormon church.
@Paper Magpie I would definitely say the people that would say hateful things in the comments under this video, yes I would agree with you on that. But that is also why I would say it's a case-by-case basis. I have become very hesitant of putting an entire group of people in a box. I know I definitely don't fit into very many boxes as I'm sure you don't as well. But the people that are commenting hateful things in the comments of this video yeah they're just bad human beings. I don't know for certain anymore if it would matter what church or cults they were in. In this case it is Mormonism that is giving them the excuse or the authority to be terrible people.
I am 62 and joined the Church when I was 15. I have been inactive for decades, but still felt Mormon-positive for all that time because I felt deep gratitude for my experience at BYU and the good people I met along the way. (Amazing story there, but I won’t bore you with that.) I was Post-Mormon in the best sense of the word. The Mormon embrace of Trump and MAGA eroded all of that, but it wasn’t until Holland’s speech that I said Enough. This morning I submitted my notarized resignation papers. Between his anti-LGBTQ rhetoric and tacit approval of the abomination that is right wing white nationalism I knew I couldn’t live with myself anymore with my name on the rolls. The Church no longer represents my moral values. Thank you all for letting me have a space to say that and for understanding.
you're funny, I Know lots of members that couldn't stand trump in this state, the only reason I vote twice is because, I've studied the Clintons, Obama, Bush' etc, and there as no way I wanted the Clintons to run the country again. Trump doesn't have the english language as his forte or tact, but he never would have left people and allies in afghanistan, he would have taken them out first. Also, you're probably to young to understand, but most of the media supported the far left dems, so they were giving out propaganda constantly, trump was never colluding with russia, but what he did do was to plan out having a hotel there later on, which he shouldn't have done, he's a sales person. He's also a capitalist, which is dirty word to dems nowadays, but not to me..
Here’s the Holland quote that worries me the most. “You can imagine the pain…” of the anonymous letter writer who fears liberal thinking, sending offspring there and who won’t give BYU any more money. How does this pain compare to that of the excommunicated same sex attraction girl or boy, man or woman whose eternal prospects have been damned. Or the pain of someone considering suicide after being unacceptable at home. Or the lifetime of pain for the gay man who stays active who can never love as a heterosexual church member can love, whose forced celibacy can only end in the afterlife when he will miraculously be cured and made normal. How can Holland be so sure? It reminds me of the Bertrand Russell quote when he asserts the trouble with the modern world is the cocksuredness of stupid people who never doubt compared to the intelligent who do, the stubborn black and white thinker compared to one who sees our human mission as having navigating through a hundred shades of grey.
The thing is that Jesus and Joseph Smith were some of the most liberal minds of their day. Christianity was formed on liberalism. It was unheard of to love your neighbor, heal the sick, help the widows and orphans, love those who hate you. Respect authority. Imagine how BYU would feel if I wrote them a letter saying that they are a bunch of Conservative hypocrites. (And that my son was not allowed to go to BYU) The Church is turning into the Church of Ezra Taft Benson, not of Jesus Christ.
I "lost my faith" and was "radicalized" on my mission, so if they're worried about BYU because of an anecdote, maybe they should worry about sending their kids on missions....
Same here! Once you go out into the real world, it’s hard not to realize that there are some things that are seriously wrong within the church’s bubble.
Great point, maybe they will want to alter that and maybe have more keyboard warrior missions. I had the experience of elder Holland visit our zone conference and i remember him clearly shredding the sister missionaries for singing an amazing rendition of an efy song - which was evidence of a man who is power hungry, vs love of Christ.
Mr. Holland appears to be the Mark E. Petersen of his time. Hanging on to a position that most of the Christian and the LDS community has come to accept (that homosexuality is how God created some of his children.) In his day, Petersen held on to the racism and discrimination of black men AND women of Mormonism until his death. It has been said that Petersen had to be sent out of the country for LDS leaders to end the ban of the priesthood and temple blessings to black members with complete agreement. Holland just assumed the position as the face of the Mormon anti-gay movement. He's fear-mongering. If this man speaks for Jesus, I don't know that version of Christ. I don't care how much he tears up and appears sincere. Sincerity is no test of the truth.
Get over yourself there skippy. You don't speak for the Church, or for God. Holland does...for both. Your 'wisdom' is merely confused opinion. God's position doesn't change.
I hope the valedictorian is okay. I can’t imagine being a focus of this talk. It’s such bullshit. Asking people to pretend to be someone they are not. Doesn’t seem like godly love to me.
I just subscribed to your channel. Thank you for talking about these issues. I have been an exmo for 4 years now and truly value channels like yours where I have a place to feel heard and understood. Most of my family is still Mormon but I was lucky to leave at the same time as my parents and siblings. My dad watches your channel religiously *no pun intended*
Wow! You're such a sad story. Choosing Deception over Truth, Wrong over Right, Evil over Righteousness, Darkness over Light, , , We truly live in the days that were prophesied... When good shall be called evil. And Evil shall be called good.
@@jacobchestnut1810 could you be more condescending? Your religion has been scientifically disproven on multiple levels. I call that choosing deception over truth. Grow up.
My heart is broken and I’m angry. I know Gods character. It looks nothing like the president or prophets of this “church “. We are the most important thing to God that He has made. His love for us is immeasurable. His heart is breaking.
It’s truly sad to see the comments on the “BYU speeches” channels video of the speech. They bless him and thank him for saying what they had all been thinking. I even read a comment where a lady hopes her gay son who ran away 7 years ago would see this and change his ways. It is so sad.
Good on her son for running away. Sometimes, there is truly no other choice but retreat. Sometimes ties need to be cut. Eventually, a tie is not just a tie. It’s a set of handcuffs.
sometimes relatives say to me that things are changing, so you could come back... then 2015 and this happen, and I can easily say, no, its not safe to come back to church... It has never been safe, since more than 50 years ago, when Wilkinson had the gay purges done at BYU and the security did entrapment of gays, and then they forced them to go through horrific therapy sessions that did not work, but caused many suicides... I am glad that I resigned from LDS thirty years ago, but sad the LDS Church has learned so terribly little about acceptance since then.
How can a leader of the church praise Jesus and condemn GLBT people in the same breath? Why would an adult stay in this culture? Christians follow Christ and his everlasting love. How can a person do any condemnation and call themselves a Christian?
Ah, Constantine The Vatican Pick a crusade Or burning times That whole Puritan thing Mormons condemning others Charles T Russell L Ron Hubbard So apparently it’s built within the O.S. For generations now,unfortunately
@@tedgarrison8842 Well, I hope that at some point you will experience His love and grace - then, you too will know. Have a great day and a wonderful life.
Church members should support other members - Our love should not be based on one's orientation. Loving others does not mean we accept their beliefs. My sister-in-law is same-sex-oriented and is a faithful member but she would not condone "progressive movements" in the Church. The church does not condone political activities at places of worship. BYU is a church-sponsored university, and it has an honor code, and the Church has the right to hire professors whose teachings and actions do not go contrary to Church doctrine and policies. As a student at BYU, I was free to discuss any opinion, political or otherwise. Whether you believe the Lord is in charge of his church or not--- the church has the right to control its own institutions. As a single man, I had an honor code at BYU. I had 3 gay friends at BYU. They had the same honor code. He is asking that Professors not teach counter to the Church teachings. He is not asking members to treat others with anything but love. The problem with being Gay at BYU is you can't have sexual relationships with the same or opposite sex and keep your honor code. Why did you go to BYU if you had no intention to keep it? People leave the church but they can leave it alone. If you have other beliefs why struggle here. You need to be where you can be happy. If I were not happy in the church I might leave. My sister-in-law is a loving happy person but she is keeping her covenants she has made in the Temple. I think this is very simple!
@@paulgoodwin2224 Context is everything. And yes, John knows what the Mormons endured in Missouri and Illinois, being driven from their homes, lashed with a cat of nine tails, shot, beaten, killed as in Haun's Mill Massacre. Musket is a reference to defense, not offense. And making a living on such lies is a very sad and condemning mode of behavior.
I used to love Jeffery Holland. I thought he was so loving and kind. But I realized I was non- binary and queer no less then 2 months before he gave this talk. When I heard it my leaving the church was cemented. I realized he was no man of God. And it hurt because I really liked him and he was the first church leader I got to meet in person so to see this twisted face of his was a real wake up call. In my opinion no man of God would ever call for violence. Ammonites anyone? P.s. I know their sons were called to go to war but they were actually being killed.
I am neither ExMo or Mormon nor am I a member of the LGTBQ+ community, BUT I LOVE people REGARDLESS OF WHOM THEY LOVE! And this makes me so angry! We don’t need any fringe group being riled up at any level. But, this Elder has crossed a line and I really believe that he will find that he has turned away more than he gains. The LGTBQ+ community has and ALWAYS hold a dear place in my heart and I love EVERYONE of you. You will ALWAYS have an ally in me♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️🌈🌈🌈🌈
So very sad! Even when I was a TBM my children all knew and know that I love them no matter what. How sad for those kids and young adults that feel that they have to hide who they are just to be accepted. 💔
The moment God put light and truth into the frail and faulty human race, of course there’ll be crap creeping in. I love Jesus. I love our human race. I weep when I hear these hate/fear-charged speeches. Thank you , John Dehlin, for standing up for marginalized humans. Your passionate speaking comes not from obsession as one conmen said. It comes from empathy and grief for the people suffering pain he’s witnessed from hurt people, from the suicides. I’m sorry my syntax is messed up. I’m hurting that anyone would attack another person. This is the End of Days when “men’s hearts shall fail them and they will be past feeling.” Mr. Holland’s speech. Heartless.
Thus video broke my shelf almost a year ago. Thanks John, Gerardo and Carah! And, I suppose, thanks to Holland for pushing me right along to Mormon Stories with your hateful, disgusting rhetoric. Eta Thanks Kyle also for all you do!
Jehova's Witnesses ALSO proclaim that theirs is the one and only true church on this earth. It's interesting how both faiths have large presences on social media with stories of their members harmed by the religion and with perilous exit stories with both religions. Its fascinating to observe both sides.
@Paper Magpie Honestly that’s why the Baháʼís may be onto something… Even though it’s ALSO an organized religion run by corruptible men, I like how they just own up to the fact that all religions claim to be the truth
I've watched several of your podcasts and I feel for you all so much. I've been trying to summarize in my mind what it is that has been so bothersome to me. What is niggling at me so much? At this point, I think it's that I perceive you all, ALL, as super kind, intelligent, talented, worldly, ambitious, and so much more. What I feel deep down, also, is that you are constantly on the defense. You have a fight or a war and your fighting with people who are evil, pathological, and narcissistic. It is because of who we fight against that we never feel heard or that we'll never walk away feeling as a winner. There seems to always be the need to defend why you left and you're defending yourselves against crazy people. It is so clear that they do not care even for a second who you are, who you really are, which is loving, caring, people who are doing, REALLY DOING, good in the world. I would really love to see and hear all that wonderful power within us all to just finally stick it to the man, if you will. Why not? This cult has been and is still getting away with many different kinds of abuses. I often want to shout out, Don't defend them. Remember they represent pedophiles. What is there to defend. You are damned if you do and damned if you don't. Why not STOP giving away your wonderful and loving power to this crazy organization? Why not STOP so deeply caring what the heck the bishops, apostles, and narrow minded members think? I think I get why it is so painful, but I believe part of the difficulty with leaving has to do so much with the continuation of their abuse during the purposefully drawn out and extremely manipulative exiting process. That seems so obviously abusive by design. They draw you in only to spit you out in the end. You are feeding right into the lions mouth when you drag on and play along with their crazy exiting scheme. You are giving your power away the minute you respond to their abusive exiting processes. With the utmost respect, Pia.
It saddens me to see Holland be very violent in his speech. I left the church 2015. For exactly this, the homophobia and the rhetoric. I lost respect for some of these guys, knowing who they are really catering to. I joined for the inclusion but then it became a "us vs them." The LDS church is what took my faith away and the critical thinking. I'm a humanist and care for everyone. I don't care about your sexual orientation as long as you have a kindred spirit. There were times where I did have to pause the video because I did get uncomfortable with what he said. No child should feel left out to want to end their lives. I'm so distraught that it's hard for me to fathom the idea of losing a friend or anyone due to suicide. I say we should all show up to BYU and let our voices be heard.
Wow, he just isn’t going to give this up. However, the good news is these protests are exactly what happened right before the church changed their minds on the blacks holding the priesthood.
A lot like most other religions throughout what the victors backed by religions call history... so yeah, of course they did. Sad. Sad that Vulcans and Elves as a whole have a better sense of humanity than humanity does. Maybe some day, maybe some day bigots will evolve past their programming.In retrospect considering the organizations trek record,not likely anytime soon .Bidding time so the ol’ Skeksis can try and steal everyone’s essence away via apologetics,tithing and flat out deceit.
It’s because the LDS Church doesn’t actually worship and revolve around Jesus Christ… Jesus Christ is just the window dressing The LDS Church revolves around and worships itself. Its institutional history. Its leaders past and present.
If the church accepts homosexuals into their club, then they won't be able to sell tickets to their temple to receive blessings to become gods and procreate in the celestial kingdom.
@@tedgarrison8842 that’s funny, I hear that beliefs from those around me all the time. Guess they realized there are too many men to have them each get their own earth?
He intentionally chose the militaristic word commandeer, which means to take possession of by force. The student was the valedictorian, he earned the right to give the commencement address, not some coup general! Make no mistake, this talk is a dehumanising attack on the valedictorian and all LBGTQ+ people.
Excellent and important dialog. Holland's goal was to instill fear: the apostles are going to punish "wayward" students who make noise; professors who offer asylum to those "wayward" students; and BYU presidents & administrators who tolerate "wayward" students or professors. The apostles always fall back on the "thou shalt not criticize our perfect flawless selves."
LDS/Mormon Church is so irrelevant to the rest of the world that it doesn't really compute. The Bishop talking sounds like something out of a B rated movie (and the way he witters seems unappealing and insincere). I wish the Community could look outside of themselves and understand their place in the world and their faith's unstable foundation.
Can you just imagine if Jesus was literally there? I just see him shaking his head at Elder Holland in disappointment because he's going against everything Jesus stood for of LOVE and inclusivity. There is room for ALL of God's children...I always hated the DIVISIVE nature of the church in treating me like an outsider when I literally followed everything I was supposed without literally believing for years. if there's no division of gender or us vs. them mentality, there's no system and if there's no system, there's no church. God would have to govern each individual personally. We all have our own wifi router connected to the source. I think I was meant to be LGBT to teach my family and the church members in my life that there's more to life than the church. It's breaking down the church with LOVE! Kinda beautiful...when Holland dies on that hill, we can post rainbow flags. One day he will see the truth! There's so many like me...David Archuleta:) We were born this way for a reason and God is making a statement here! Blow all your dog whistles you want, Elder Holland. The strongest of your troops don't want to fight...they want to love.
I think the leaders believe having a “other “ is healthy for the church . Something to be above , something to distinguish themselves from. But I also think the church will fully include lgbt people. It’s not something they can avoid. It’s much larger than a handful of men.
@@elouise5593 “everyone is included if they act the same, speak the same, believe the same, think the same, and dress the same as me.” That’s not inclusion that’s oppression
As a TBM Holland was one of my favorite apostles, so to have him talk this way is extra sad, even though I am well out of the church and at peace with my lgbtqia self.
I don't understand why people are so surprised when Mormon apostles say the same things they've been saying for decades. It isn't unsustainable and they don't care about bad publicity. They can keep this up forever.
Nice try. But fortunately the “Great and Spacious Building” of Mormonism is literally cracking and crumbling under the the massive weight of all their documented, verified and proven lies.
No church has the right to get involved with body autonomy and need to stay out of enforcing vaccines as we have free agency. Christ rebelled against politicians and beaurocrats. He would also sit with the LGBTQ and not judge. I don't support the agenda, but I fully support the community and pray LGBTQ community gets the love and acceptance needed. There should be no suicides or mental health decline due to narrow mindedness.
The message this sends is that at its core the church is white, male, american, polygamous, capitalist, and conservative. The backlash it takes from its core any time it tries to become more inclusive to women, blacks, internationals, progressives, and the lgbtq+ community is astounding to watch
The funny thing is that it's not trying to become more inclusive to women, blacks, internationals, progressives and the ldbtq+ community. Didn't you even watch his talk?
About him being weepy... the only time I saw my dad cry was when he bore his testimony. Could church be an outlet for expressing emotion that otherwise would be looked down on? I firmly believe we all need to process and express emotion so now I'm very curious. They cry about delusional things but at least they cry.
Sentimentalism is a powerful manipulation tool widely used by churches, oddly and ironically the scriptures teach that the Holy Spirit does not communicate through emotions but by intelligence, light and truth.
It worked as Manipulation to get people to feel sorrow and feel bad for him. I never noticed it before either… I have been a member 32 yrs and fell for all this emotional crap thinking it was the spirit. Now that I’m awake and aware… his crying is disgusting to me. And honestly, people should take it as insulting to them because he honestly thinks you’re stupid enough to believe him.
Yeah I get he's being manipulative and that's reallly gross. I'm just sort of "pondering" on the idea as a whole. Men having an outlet to cry. And if it's not a true outlet, can you be manipulative without realizing how sinister it is? And it's hard for me to believe my dad was manipulating people on purpose. But now I'm considering the possibility. Anyway, just typing my thoughts I guess.
As a sixth-generation Mormon (now thankfully recovered and happy), and as a gay man who came out a number of years ago, I am neither surprised nor caught off guard by Jeffrey Holland‘s comments. What I am is thoroughly disgusted. However, once one understands that the Mormon church is all about money, power, control, and survival, none of its leaders’ statements or tactics - no matter how extreme, destructive, revolting, or snidely manipulative - should astonish anyone. Still, Holland’s “call to arms” is not only beyond insulting and hurtful, it may just prove to be deadly to some of my LGBTQ sisters and brothers, and I don’t think he cares. AT ALL. (See “money, power, control, and survival“ explanation.)
You said that after Elder Holland’s talk, many people are going to resign or considering resign their membership in the Church. How do you have this information? With millions or members of the Church worldwide, what do you consider many? Or is it just your assumption? What is the validity of your affirmation about it?
It implies physical? It sounds a bit like mount your horse, charge? The only thing he didn't say was . "I will lead the charge". I'm sick! My heart is aching.
Everything about Holland's remarks were abhorrent. As an apostle and former BYU president, Holland must know full well how valedictorian speeches are approved. To accuse this highly accomplished young person of "commandeering" the platform is simply lying. He earned his podium spot at graduation through his academic achievements. His speech, as Kyle confirms, was reviewed and given the green light. If Holland wishes to criticize that approval, he needs to go straight to the administration instead of publicly and unfairly attacking a rank-and-file vulnerable BYU alum. In the larger picture, the ongoing culture war driven by ultra-conservatives and the religious right in the wake of the civil rights movement is finally failing in the US and Europe, though there is a long way to go. This is thanks to decades of brave activism working towards a more perfect union in these United States. But that arc of justice doesn't bend smoothly. And to be fair, the secular and scientific world shares some blame. For decades now, though, bad ideas and bad science around gender and sexual identity have been discredited as new research and data emerges. The courts continue to affirm this. However, factions of the LDS leadership will apparently continue to double down until the balance shifts far enough - or enough time goes by for substantial leadership changes and societal/government pressure. See also priesthood and temple ban for blacks. What is prophetic power for, if not to get periodic updates from HF to keep up with the earthly societal times? Or perhaps the Q15 are just acting as men. Or maybe they never will change on this - with a few hundred billion dollars banked, faithful and former LGBTQ+ members are apparently expendable. Which, yes, is abhorrent. As the stampede out the door from more progressive members increases, TBMs and radical DezNat types may just grow stronger and more self-righteous and vehement in their biases, discriminatory beliefs, and practices. Yes, the church has the constitutional right to prohibit religious marriage, other religious rites, and to set discriminatory policies at its campuses, no matter the harm to its members. For those of us who celebrate marriage equality and full legal and civil rights for our LGBTQ+ fellow humans, at this point just stop interferring with secular law and policy in this regard.
Those who defend the musket speech please respond: I myself am not LGBTQ (CHECK); I do not have an LGBTQ sibling (CHECK); I do not have an LGBTQ child (CHECK); I do not have an LGBTQ friend (that I know of) (CHECK); I love my neighbor as I love myself (so long as he/she is not LGBTQ) (CHECK); I change the channel when Ellen or RuPaul comes on (CHECK); I would rather get wet than use a rainbow umbrella (CHECK); I believe being LGBTQ is a choice (CHECK).
Regarding the author of the letter Holland quoted: he mentioned receiving information from donors, and the document was referenced as a “memo,” not a “letter.” This is likely someone on the finance committee overseeing donations - and that is probably the source of their concerns - funding.
@@stephtimms1776 you’re confusing “lie” with “observation.” 18:40-18:45 he references a “memo” indicating an internal document from another administrator or employee rather than “letter” which would indicate it coming from outside the university. 19:20 he refers to “several” parents who no longer want their children to attend the school, and who no longer want to donate to the school. If this is not someone on a committee that deals with donations, then it’s anecdotal evidence and could be ignored as a possible outlier. Feel free to point out where I’ve “lied”
@@ausnetting You asserted the likely source of their concerns to be funding. That is not true. Their concerns are for the spiritual health of everyone. To suggest their main concern is probably financial is an attack on faith in Jesus Christ.
This is classic LDS playbook, cry, condemn, cry and don’t leave room for people who look and think and sounds different to you. The mormon experience is so rigid in its definition and leaves no space for free thought.
The rhetoric about what next at the commencement reminds me of the horrible things said about gay marriage. Opposers would say what next, marriage to animals?
Years ago I had a friend at BYU who wrote for The Daily Universe (as people know, the BYU school newspaper). He was asked to go undercover and try to find these "secret" gay groups on campus. He did his research, he had his notes and when certain people would have been implicated, he was told that the story was too hot to touch and to actually burn his notes. This was back in the day as well when they had shock therapy also to "cure" gays. Very sad. From what I have read 5-10% of LDS teens are LGBTQ. Teen suicides in UT are some of the highest in the country. It's tough I am sure being gay and LDS. On the one side you are told that God made you wonderful, on the other side you aren't going to "heaven" unless you deny who and what you are as God made you? WOW. And now Elder Holland's comments? This is what the Lord's Church has turned into? A bunch of old, wealthy, white men running a Church which was started by men who were a lot younger and also "restored" by a man just barely out of his teens..... Come on now!
It's clear they want everyone to believe that they lead by divine command and are therefore infallible. That's a high horse to ride, and falling may be more likely than they think.
Elder Holland is such a beautiful and compassionate man. So grateful for the light he brings. I loved his talk, and also his approach to maintaining truth and obedience.
Gotta love the complete lack of boundaries in mormonism. Imagine writing a private letter to a church official only for it to be read out at a conference.
You guys are all amazing & thank you so much for what you do & expressing your opinions. THE CHURCH IS WRONG. Most unChristlike things you can do & say. Thank you for your voices!!
Also, somebody coming out during their graduation speech is not right, just like a person proposing to another during the graduation speech is not right. The graduation speech is for the class as a whole, and not a moment to focus on one person. I am a gay member of the Church, but I don’t think it’s right to come out in such circumstances. It’s just not right
I don't understand why people would expect the church to change the church position. I am atheist so I have no objection to LBGT rights but I can see that church leaders cannot change their position. They have said all along that homosexuality is against God, so changing church doctrine would mean God had changed his mind. But, I would have said the same about giving P.O.C. the priesthood, and yet, the Prophet heard from God that it was time to give them the priesthood. Maybe public pressure will cause God to change his mind about being gay.
It’s interesting that the Gospel is about Live your neighbour, be like Jesus, accept our Brother’s and Sisters…. But cannot find it in their heart or talks about acceptance of our LGBTQT family
I don't understand. The bible is clear about homosexuality. Why do LGBTQ expect churches to change the bible to suit them? And don't reply that it's the same as being discriminated for being black. It's not. The bible does not say that black people are cursed. But it does specifically say homosexuality is a sin.
It's not really crying because it's acting. They do it in every conference talk, but always toward the end. Notice how they never break down though. It's a skill.
Do we know that letter is even real? Seems suspiciously like “I heard from a friend of a friend that her friend heard from her friend that so and so was very upset at how Liberal the Faculty at BYU has become”
Holland is an Apostle with a capital A. Whatever he says goes. If what he says is against the will of the Lord he would be removed. He is still there, everything he said is standard canon. Follow the Prophet, stay in the boat, don't be foolish.
We can debate the accommodation, or lack there of, for those who make choices that are not consistent with the doctrine of the church, but I can’t imagine a scenario where the church would alter the doctrine to accommodate lifestyle choices that are inconsistent with the doctrine. If the doctrine becomes malleable, in order to accommodate every lifestyle choice, it is no longer eternal. There are some things that will inevitably remain out of reach to those who make alternative lifestyle choices. Such as, priesthood office and temple recommends.
Acceptance is so very important-Creator loves everyone! We Lakota Oglala do not use nouns or pronouns! Mother and Father are functions -verbs- Refer to David Little Elk! Far left and Far right are 1/2 teaspoon away from each other!
Around the 43:00 mark you reference the quote from Boyd K Packer when he tells of the missionary who “floored” his companion. When I read that talk, I interpreted it as this missionary actually tried to do something sexual/commit sexual assault, but in this video you said that the missionary punched his companion simply for coming out as gay. Is that actually what happened? Did this missionary really K.O. his companion simply for saying “I’m gay”? This is a very important distinction. P.S. I’m a gay Mormon in deep distress, I’m not a gay basher nor a Mormon basher, just someone trying to get the facts.
The gay agenda: "I just want to live my life and be happy with the one I love"
Elder Holland's response: "Why are you being so mean to me???!"
Also Elder Holland’s response:
“We will keep sending our missionaries out to knock on people’s doors to promote our agenda and try to convert people to our lifestyle, regardless of whether they asked for it or not”
@@coyotelong4349 😊 That's not to say that there aren't good, decent religious folks out there (my terrific family included)... but still, when he cries, it sickens me because those tears are not for the LGBTQ+ folks that have lost their lives to suicide because of the church... it's for himself... it's for his reputation...
OMG Jeffrey, You're tears do not make the bigotry any more palatable, stop fooling yourself............
I once got into trouble while teaching a course as a grad assistant at BYU on issues re multicultural education. I raised the particular concerns of LGBTQ kids in the public schools, how they commit suicide at 17 times the rate of the general population, how district policy requires teachers to disclose any threats of suicide or self-harm to school administrators or be potentially personally liable if a student goes through with it. I was reported to the department chair. I was tattled on because I dared to speak up on an LGBTQ issue (& on-topic, given the unit) in a BYU classroom to future public school teachers who are certain to be confronted by harsh reality one day. Someone thought I was an advocate, which was a no-no. I know what academic freedom is. I have a law degree. I've read the cases. I was presenting factual content pertinent to the course, so I was good with the boss (if a little bit passionate). That was over 20 years ago. The episode still feels like a gut punch. Kids are still killing themselves.
It really is incredible that these people are claiming they love and stand with LGBTQ teens yet turn a massive blind eye to the suicide rate. I tried to commit suicide twice as a teen because of my parents intense bigotry to the LGBTQ community and me being bisexual, my mental health tanked. Both times it was less “my life is so miserable, I genuinely want to die” and more “my life is so miserable, I will do anything as a cry for help.” I never wanted to die. Every time suicidal thoughts came to my mind, both times I attempted, I thought “nothing will change. This might just be my only option left.” I wanted to live. But I thought death was better than the life I was living. Thank god for my friends, my brother, and the Trevor lifeline, I could always count on them for support. My brother is more of a parental figure than my parents, he is what I think being a parent entails. My friends were not uncomfortable with who I was, they were still my friends (and miraculously, I became friends with two other bisexuals, in Utah of all places 🤯). Once I could drive, it was much easier. Rarely saw my parents after I could, I would drive to a parking lot and stay there for hours on end, or to a friend’s house. It is such a blessing for those of us with toxic/abusive parents.
@@elliefuller3667 similar story here. 24 now, and already the power dynamic did a complete 180. Its crazy how a few years of radio silence can change peoples opinions. Cant say its better this way though. Constantly feel on edge whenever I do talk to my parents. Best way I can describe it now is like my parents are walking a rope bridge across a chasm toward me. Im on the other side holding a knife to the ropes waiting for them to flinch.
If people would only read the scriptures, they'd understand that the Lord loves them. We understand the burden it is for members that are attracted to same sex. We are all complicated and many do have a same sex attraction. The Lord taught being chaste, and if same sex members think it's any easier for some to not indulge in sex before marriage, they are wrong, it can be a burden for many, and so, we all try our best to live the commandments, and He shows us the way to make it bearable and to give services to others, thereby lessening that constant evaluation or ourselves and thinking only of us. This life was not meant to be easy. I've been a member since I was 21, I had to change my lifestyle and it wasn't easy, it certainly was not. These kids who take their lives are constantly thinking because they can't be perfect and can't totally stop the attraction, they they are broken and never be comfortable, that isn't true, they can't be perfect, but we're not perfect, and the Lord will judge us with the perfect judgement of mercy and justice
So the mormon god hates the politicians up at the state capitol but he hates the folks at the U of Utah even more??? You sure about that Jeffrey??
@Wendigo44 Were you punished by the school?
I love you guys and all that you do. Thank you for speaking on this subject. I graduated from BYU-Idaho in April and your helping me understand and heal. Thank you 🙏🏾
My English teacher (decades ago) would give you a gold medal for writing “your helping” and correct instead of the commonly used “you helping” which is incorrect. She joined the Peace Corps after retiring and went to Africa to teach English.
@@tedgarrison8842 I was congratulating her for correct grammar!
I’m am shocked when people write “your” instead of “you’re” (you are.) that happens frequently. Like your great instead of you’re great.
I live in the UK, please do not get me started on how you pronounce PROCESS.
You can however see how languages develop, when we have subtitles when people from certain parts of US are interviewed.
I’m a teacher in Utah and was made to take down a sign that says “everyone is welcome here” and has hearts underneath with ombré colors starting from white to black and then has a heart with gay pride colors. I was told I had to take it down because gay pride is considered political. It made me cry.
I’m so sorry. That’s awful.
Awful. Is that because of Natalie Clines awfulness. She’s got to go.
Sounds like you could put up the same message work no images then you still make students feel welcome and they can’t claim political because it’s not specific to any group
There are teachers in Portland with Black Lives Matter flags in their classrooms so that’s just ridiculous that you can’t have what you put up. I’m sorry.
@@cathrynmorgan8254 no, they have been forced to take down their BLM flags and gay pride flags as well. They are fighting it in court.
Thank you for this episode. In case you're unaware, using "bipolar" as a negative adjective is painful to those like me who have bipolar disorder. Thank you :)
@@tabithatodd4302 I'm not sure how judging bipolar as negative or enjoyable is helpful. It's a medical condition that people live with. It's not a condition that you really grow out of and it is extremely challenging to live with. People are very aware of their condition and often find relief with proper medication although they are often not diagnosed early in life. Just from a child who grew up with a bipolar dad.
@@pompelmostique alright, I’m not a troll. I can accept when I am wrong. I’m sorry, I’ll delete the comments
I still think though that acting like it’s positive is taking validation away from people who struggle with it
I feel you Megan. I have PTSD. DEFINITELY feel you.
Poor Megan. Grow up.
Thank you, Brother Jeff, for further alienating the younger generations - you know, the ones who are supposed to be the church's future. The leaders are fully aware how fast the church could die with the loss of just one generation, and yet...
Terrible business decision right??
Gen Z is growing up in a world with much more inclusivity and tolerance for unique peoples like the LGBTQ community. Gen Alpha will have that even more when they are teens. The generation raised by Gen Z (Gen B?) will be highly respectful and loving of all, I’m quite sure of that. I would not be surprised if the church lost nearly all members once Gen B or whatever the name is are being raised. The next generation or two will probably spell out the self-destruction of the Mormon church.
@@elliefuller3667 - Or another about face on "doctrine" like polygamy, black priesthood holders...
@@alchristensen8121 Very true
The church will only die if it supports immoral behavior.
Former temple sealed BYU graduate LDS lesbian checking in. I'm engaged to another former Mormon. Yes, more lesbian voices are needed. I agree!
Same here. Happy to speak out
@@smallfairytales1231 well hello there. Nice to meet you fellow lesbian raptor. 😀
So do you still believe in Christ? If so, can you please tell me how you reconcile in your mind supporting something he so clearly condemns? I’m genuinely curious.
@@841577 who is the “he’ in your question? Is it Christ or the man Jeffrey Holland who says he represents Christ. Those could not be more opposite in my mind and entirely change the question. I’m not sure what you are asking.
@@841577 you are asking if I support “Something” Christ “so clearly condemns”. What is the “something”? Is it being gay? Is it Jeffrey r Holland and his speech? I feel Christ clearly condemns the abusive narcissistic language as well as the calls for attacks on an already vulnerable people. So if that’s what you mean, there is no problem reconciling that in my mind. Loving Christ and condemning Holland’s speech is easy. If you are saying how do I reconcile in my mind supporting gays and believing in Christ, that is also an easy answer. First, I don’t believe in the hypothesis you lay out, “Something he so clearly condemns”. I could argue this from many angles. I don’t think Christ condemns gays. Also, though I love the New Testament, it was gathered long long after Christ and is full of mistakes. But, I still love it, and I read it looking for how Christ interacts with people. He meets each person where they are at and seeks to increase their faith and build them up. I feel love and acceptance from my God. It’s why when I chose to come out at age 56 after fighting my attraction for women for 14 years, I decided to stay in the LDS church. I decided to sit in church and feel God’s love and somehow put on armor to fight off the arrows of hate and misunderstanding coming at me. I thought it would be a growing experience for everyone in the congregation. I will no longer remain in the LDS church because I feel I can’t change anything and I don’t want to signal any support for the narcissistic and abusive organization that it is. Yes, I choose to believe in Christ and if the divine that I feel isn’t Christ, that’s ok because I use Christ as my example and wait to see what surprises await me on the other side. I feel peace, love, and joy every second I am with my lesbian partner. I have found true happiness, finally.
I am not gay but a young educated black man. Meaning to say that understand how these guys feel on a minority level. This is one for the best podcast of moment stories that I have listened to. I love you guys. Much love and success to you guys. I felt a discrimination in the church. Very passive aggressive. And to use more like comments on so-called God's pulpit it's just sickening. Can anybody really see at this time that this is God's true church. I think you have to be pretty far out there to say that this is God's only true church. In my opinion these guys at the top or just sick people that's my personal opinion. And full of delusion. Thank you John for a ver y very wonderful podcast. ❤️👍
I'm sorry I am not gay made me laugh
Pathetic and sad. I am a BYU graduate of 1982. I came out in 1985 and divorced my wife. I was a returned missionary, temple worker, in the bishopric, and I am happily married to the man of my dreams of now 33 years. I have seen too many senseless suicides in my 40 year teaching career in Utah. The LDS Church is a cult of unwavering stubbornness. It won’t change. Let us embrace ourselves without the church. Please. President/Apostle Holland is wrong.
I say let them have the church, I am done. It saddens me because the church was a positive force in my life as a youth in a lot of ways but in others it was not.
Bye.
Good on you. I checked out as an LGBT youth when the church used it's power and authority globally to try and battle gay people in California. One state. No church or religious establishment should have as much power or influence as they do.
@@fightingfortruth9806
Same to you
I've left, and feel the same way as you.
Buh bye!
Thank you OS team. From the bottom of my heart. This broke our family and it needs to be brought out into the light and exposed ❤️❤️
It's galling that Elder Holland would speak against divisiveness, when it's the church itself that champions divisiveness. The whole "us vs the world" teaching is divisiveness.
We actually briefly talked about this, this morning in seminary class. Its a really sad thing. The popular opinion is that we love elder Holland and we accept LGBTQ people because they are gods children too. So we were quite torn between the two sides. It was a sad feeling in class and there are three bi and Mormon girls in my seminary. I feel like that kinda opened up a wound for them…
I’m a Bi member of the church too. I was attracted to women before I was attracted to men. But I found that I could love both sexes and am attracted to both. I’m very disappointed by what was said. I thought the church was making progress. This feels like a huge backslide. Our bishops 16 yr old committed suicide Last year and I’m very certain it was because she was LGBTQ.
@@glitterxgore6943 Stay strong please. I wish I would have said this to those girls in my class. We knows gods plan, and he loves you so much. I hope you can help other members who have come out to stay strong. 🙂
I think You are not understanding...nor seeing REALLY SEING I FEEL SAD CAUSE OF THAT He said Many TIMES THEY WEPT FOR THIS SITUATIONS. IT KS SIMPLE:HE SAID""""" LOVE ONE ANOTHER AND KEEP YOUR BELIEVES THAT ARE TRUE ABOUT FAMILY"".
This wasn’t really the focus of his talk. LGBTQ was not the focus of his talk. He’s concerned about “specific things” being taught at BYU that goes against the gospel. He even said he didn’t want to go into the lgbtq policies. Listen to his talk again. It was not his focus.
As an active LDS member, it seems to me that the plan of salvation is for all of mankind, not just straight people. There are more than 500 million LGBTQIA on earth at the present time. Elder Holland should focus on his insight into the Plan of Happiness for those people. We are instructed to take the gospel to "every nation, kindred, tongue and people." What is our message to this large group? You are not wanted? You are a mistake? Why do I believe that this is not the Lord's way, nor his gospel. He told us to love all others, even our enemies. How about our brothers and sisters who may differ in their gender and sexuality perceptions? Should we not strive to love and serve them also? Instead of encouraging Church members to discriminate, hate or even commit violent acts against this community? This is very sad.
Be very careful … a living apostle of god has spoken .. you are in jeopardy of loosing your salvation … as Dallin H Oaks says .. “it is wrong to criticize your leaders - even if they are wrong”
Get in line and be quite. Obedience is far more important to The Church then Honesty and Integrity.
Good luck with that .. we resigned and are far better for it. Honesty and integrity is FAR MORE important to Us then The Church that literally has massively hypocritical leaders continuously gaslighting whole groups of people.
@@lightwalker2655 Even an apostle can mess up. Just ask Judas.
@@thyasyn100 ya … and because of Judas’s guilt he killed himself.
The Mormon leaders are literally documented, verified and proven liars period … we all clearly know this.
ANYONE actually honest with themselves and with God knows, Jesus Christ would never tell his “only true church” to whitewash, cover up, deceive and outright lie about its own history, finances and doctrines. NEVER!
That one fact alone proves Mormonism is a total sham.
@@ace00057 oh my my .. ignorance is BLISS for this poor soul “Dennis” …
The Mormon jesus LITERALLY does not exist … neither does the Mormon god.
The Mormon god once was a “created” mortal man, now lives on a star called kolob, likely has many many wives that bare billions of his children, and is the literal father of Satan, AND the Mormon god “ironically” teaches Mormons can become gods exactly like Satan desires to be a god.
The Mormon god is a created, COMPLETELY UNBIBLICAL, polytheistic (multiple - endless - gods) polygamist, FALSE god.
Christians do not believe in the same god or gospel as Mormons in any way shape or form. Christians believe in The One and Only True God Jesus Christ found in the Bible.
Mormonism literally worships false gods.
As Aposed to The True and Living Jesus Christ who is literally The One and Only God, creator of the universe and savior of the world! True Christians follow the one and ONLY Lord, God and savior Jesus Christ... not the false Mormon christ who is Satan’s bother.
The deception is clearly revealed.
If the false Mormon prophets were actually honest they would name their church an honest name. The most honest name of the Mormon church is
The Church of
S A T A N S B R O T H E R
of Latter-Day Satan’s Brothers
and Sisters
That way the whole world would know the false “entity” that Mormons believe in. Also, that name would not offend ANY Mormon because it is in perfect harmony with Mormon doctrine.
We all now know - full well - the false Mormon prophets (past and present) are literally documented, verified and proven whitewashers, deceivers and outright liars of Mormon history, doctrines and finances. They are literal proven liars. Even the false Mormon prophets are now attempting to explain away - on their very own web site - many historical facts that were previously called “anti-Mormon lies” - now the Mormon leaders are admitting that they are actually not lies, but actual true historical facts. Although much of their explanations are still whitewashed and full of flowery manipulation … why?? Because the False Mormon Prophets are literally “fearful liars” Revelations 21:8.
Not telling the full truth - covering up - whitewashing - are ALL forms of deception, manipulation, and straight up lying!!
Again…. The Mormon leaders are literally documented, verified and proven liars period … we all clearly know this.
ANYONE actually honest with themselves and with God knows, Jesus Christ would never tell his “only true church” to whitewash, cover up, deceive and outright lie about its own history, finances and doctrines.
That one fact alone proves Mormonism is a total false gospel.
I truly pray that God will give you, and all Mormons, “eyes to see” and “ears to hear” the true gospel of Jesus Christ filled with unconditional love and grace. We pray in HIS name Jesus Christ, amen 🙏
Jesus is enough ❤️😇✝️🙏
I'm tearing up lol... It's so nice hearing a religious person be in support of the queer community and acknowledge our humanity.
The tremulous voice as he nearly breaks down in tears because he’s so horrified by gayness is a nice touch.
Fear the rainbow Jeff. 🌈
Heaven forbid two people of the same gender be in love! /s
It's scripted tears...🙄
They're so good at emotional manipulation
Yes! They always "nearly" break down, but never do fully. Just watch every conference talk. It invariably happens during the last 2 minutes. You have to wait for it.
I've been out of the church for a good 10ish years. I've been married to another woman for 5 years now. My entire family is super supportive. When my believing family members and family members that have recently left the church feel hurt about this it makes me mad. Not for me because I'm beyond caring anymore. It make me mad for them. When they ask me about how I feel about it, I mention a church talk I remember from when I was a teen. A boy who carried a snake from a mountain a the snake bites him. The snake then says "you knew what I was when you picked me up." That's exactly how I feel about the church. They never changed and they never will. It is to be expected. The church (not the people) will always act like they are kind, but I have yet to see it unless there is an ulterior motive behind it. I told my siblings today they just shot themselves in the foot again and if they don't figure out how to stop shooting themselves in the foot they will eventually bleed to death. I did not consider how ever until half way through this video that they could also amputate a leg to survive, and they don't seem to care.
@Paper Magpie @Paper Magpie I totally get where you are coming from. For the longest time I hated Mormons, all of them. Like I really hated them. I cannot describe how much I hated Mormons. I also had every reason to hate Mormonism it did alot of harm in my life. Then I got a job where I worked with Mormons, ALOT. I would travel for the job across the entire Rocky mountain west. Utah, Idaho, Nevada, Wyoming, Colorado, Arizona, Montana, and California. I was determined to keep hating Mormonism and the people. I was made and angry and just hated the because I was so so hurt. What I found was it is only a few percentage in every stake and ward that are really judgmental to the bone. Yes every once in a while you will get an entire small town that is all that way or a stake that is all that way. The majority of them really are well meaning people, they are just doing the best they can with the tools they have been taught and or given. What I found from that job was I was judging every person by the church they were in and not the individual by what the individual was doing. It's not the individual, it is the machine that is the Church. What I learned from working in churches, BYU Provo and Idaho and at times in the different church office buildings is that it really is the church, not the people. I also found that I was the bigot, not the people. I would garment check people and if I could tell they had garments on I would immediately hate them and thought they couldn't be trusted and my guard would go up immediately. One day about 6 months into this job I didn't have coffee at the Hotel I was staying because I woke up late because I had been out drinking the night before. About halfway through the day I started getting a really bad headache. This woman asked me if there was anything she could do to help get rid of my headache and I said, "I hate to mention this because I don't want to be disrespectful, but I didn't have a cup of coffee this morning so I'm getting a caffeine migraine." She then asked me what I wanted from Starbucks and I told her just a cup of coffee. She literally went and got me a cup of coffee and would not let me pay her back. This lady and I just talked and became such good friends. By the end of the day I was sad because I knew I would never see this woman again. Because of HIPAA laws I also would never be able to contact her again. That night as I had a 5-Hour drive back home I realized that I was the bigoted one not the Mormon people. I was so sad that I had never seen this in myself. After having that job I had so many positive experiences with Mormon people that there's no way I could hate them anymore. Yes there are judgmental bigots in the Mormon church but there are also very judgmental bigoted X-Moes and I was definitely one of them. I really hate that I ever was that way. I also really wish that I could talk about what my job was because I feel like it gave me a very unique perspective on Mormons and the Mormon church.
@Paper Magpie I would definitely say the people that would say hateful things in the comments under this video, yes I would agree with you on that. But that is also why I would say it's a case-by-case basis. I have become very hesitant of putting an entire group of people in a box. I know I definitely don't fit into very many boxes as I'm sure you don't as well. But the people that are commenting hateful things in the comments of this video yeah they're just bad human beings. I don't know for certain anymore if it would matter what church or cults they were in. In this case it is Mormonism that is giving them the excuse or the authority to be terrible people.
I am 62 and joined the Church when I was 15. I have been inactive for decades, but still felt Mormon-positive for all that time because I felt deep gratitude for my experience at BYU and the good people I met along the way. (Amazing story there, but I won’t bore you with that.) I was Post-Mormon in the best sense of the word. The Mormon embrace of Trump and MAGA eroded all of that, but it wasn’t until Holland’s speech that I said Enough. This morning I submitted my notarized resignation papers. Between his anti-LGBTQ rhetoric and tacit approval of the abomination that is right wing white nationalism I knew I couldn’t live with myself anymore with my name on the rolls. The Church no longer represents my moral values. Thank you all for letting me have a space to say that and for understanding.
Good for you!
Ya, Trump is evil, he wouldn't have armed the Taliban.
you're funny, I Know lots of members that couldn't stand trump in this state, the only reason I vote twice is because, I've studied the Clintons, Obama, Bush' etc, and there as no way I wanted the Clintons to run the country again. Trump doesn't have the english language as his forte or tact, but he never would have left people and allies in afghanistan, he would have taken them out first. Also, you're probably to young to understand, but most of the media supported the far left dems, so they were giving out propaganda constantly, trump was never colluding with russia, but what he did do was to plan out having a hotel there later on, which he shouldn't have done, he's a sales person. He's also a capitalist, which is dirty word to dems nowadays, but not to me..
@@ritamariekelley4077 Trump wasn't. That's what I liked about him, his ego wouldn't allow him to be a puppet.
In Utah we Love President Trump! He puts America First!
"A house divided against itself... would be better than this."
-Abraham Lincoln, in his awesome space chair (The LEGO Movie)
Here’s the Holland quote that worries me the most. “You can imagine the pain…” of the anonymous letter writer who fears liberal thinking, sending offspring there and who won’t give BYU any more money. How does this pain compare to that of the excommunicated same sex attraction girl or boy, man or woman whose eternal prospects have been damned. Or the pain of someone considering suicide after being unacceptable at home. Or the lifetime of pain for the gay man who stays active who can never love as a heterosexual church member can love, whose forced celibacy can only end in the afterlife when he will miraculously be cured and made normal. How can Holland be so sure? It reminds me of the Bertrand Russell quote when he asserts the trouble with the modern world is the cocksuredness of stupid people who never doubt compared to the intelligent who do, the stubborn black and white thinker compared to one who sees our human mission as having navigating through a hundred shades of grey.
Amen G. Watt.
The thing is that Jesus and Joseph Smith were some of the most liberal minds of their day. Christianity was formed on liberalism. It was unheard of to love your neighbor, heal the sick, help the widows and orphans, love those who hate you. Respect authority. Imagine how BYU would feel if I wrote them a letter saying that they are a bunch of Conservative hypocrites. (And that my son was not allowed to go to BYU) The Church is turning into the Church of Ezra Taft Benson, not of Jesus Christ.
I "lost my faith" and was "radicalized" on my mission, so if they're worried about BYU because of an anecdote, maybe they should worry about sending their kids on missions....
Same here! Once you go out into the real world, it’s hard not to realize that there are some things that are seriously wrong within the church’s bubble.
Same!
Me also!
Great point, maybe they will want to alter that and maybe have more keyboard warrior missions. I had the experience of elder Holland visit our zone conference and i remember him clearly shredding the sister missionaries for singing an amazing rendition of an efy song - which was evidence of a man who is power hungry, vs love of Christ.
@@bobbobski3815 EFY song? Seriously?
This was much needed and somewhat cathartic. Thank you!
Mr. Holland appears to be the Mark E. Petersen of his time. Hanging on to a position that most of the Christian and the LDS community has come to accept (that homosexuality is how God created some of his children.) In his day, Petersen held on to the racism and discrimination of black men AND women of Mormonism until his death. It has been said that Petersen had to be sent out of the country for LDS leaders to end the ban of the priesthood and temple blessings to black members with complete agreement. Holland just assumed the position as the face of the Mormon anti-gay movement. He's fear-mongering. If this man speaks for Jesus, I don't know that version of Christ. I don't care how much he tears up and appears sincere. Sincerity is no test of the truth.
Get over yourself there skippy. You don't speak for the Church, or for God. Holland does...for both. Your 'wisdom' is merely confused opinion. God's position doesn't change.
@@tedgarrison8842 did he take tips from Glenn Beck? Keep a jar of Vicks Vaporub handy or half an onion in his pocket so he can cry on cue?
❤️Great episode. Respect to you, Dr Dehlin for feeling angry and not losing Your cool!
I hope the valedictorian is okay. I can’t imagine being a focus of this talk. It’s such bullshit. Asking people to pretend to be someone they are not. Doesn’t seem like godly love to me.
I actually worry about his physical safety after this.
@@windigo44 me too. It’s genuinely worrisome. Targeting him like that is not acceptable.
Did someone call for a Lesbian? Give me 5 minutes, some Birkenstock’s and a Subaru and I’ll be right over!
Meetcha' there!
Haha. Dont forget your flannel shirt. 😄
Ha ha. My wife wears Birkenstocks and used to drive an Outback. Is there something I should know?
Can I get a ride?
@@lrsvalentine 😀 ask her?
I just subscribed to your channel. Thank you for talking about these issues. I have been an exmo for 4 years now and truly value channels like yours where I have a place to feel heard and understood. Most of my family is still Mormon but I was lucky to leave at the same time as my parents and siblings. My dad watches your channel religiously *no pun intended*
Wow! You're such a sad story. Choosing Deception over Truth, Wrong over Right, Evil over Righteousness, Darkness over Light, , , We truly live in the days that were prophesied... When good shall be called evil. And Evil shall be called good.
@@jacobchestnut1810 could you be more condescending? Your religion has been scientifically disproven on multiple levels. I call that choosing deception over truth. Grow up.
My heart is broken and I’m angry. I know Gods character. It looks nothing like the president or prophets of this “church “. We are the most important thing to God that He has made. His love for us is immeasurable. His heart is breaking.
It’s truly sad to see the comments on the “BYU speeches” channels video of the speech. They bless him and thank him for saying what they had all been thinking. I even read a comment where a lady hopes her gay son who ran away 7 years ago would see this and change his ways. It is so sad.
Good on her son for running away. Sometimes, there is truly no other choice but retreat. Sometimes ties need to be cut. Eventually, a tie is not just a tie. It’s a set of handcuffs.
sometimes relatives say to me that things are changing, so you could come back... then 2015 and this happen, and I can easily say, no, its not safe to come back to church... It has never been safe, since more than 50 years ago, when Wilkinson had the gay purges done at BYU and the security did entrapment of gays, and then they forced them to go through horrific therapy sessions that did not work, but caused many suicides... I am glad that I resigned from LDS thirty years ago, but sad the LDS Church has learned so terribly little about acceptance since then.
How can a leader of the church praise Jesus and condemn GLBT people in the same breath? Why would an adult stay in this culture? Christians follow Christ and his everlasting love. How can a person do any condemnation and call themselves a Christian?
You nailed it dead center. 👍
Ah, Constantine
The Vatican
Pick a crusade
Or burning times
That whole Puritan thing
Mormons condemning others
Charles T Russell
L Ron Hubbard
So apparently it’s built within the O.S. For generations now,unfortunately
Yes, good Christians do follow Christ. This also means keeping His commandments. "If ye love me, keep my commandments."
@@tedgarrison8842 I'm sorry you feel that way. But there is; and He loves you too.
@@tedgarrison8842 Well, I hope that at some point you will experience His love and grace - then, you too will know. Have a great day and a wonderful life.
Church members should support other members - Our love should not be based on one's orientation. Loving others does not mean we accept their beliefs. My sister-in-law is same-sex-oriented and is a faithful member but she would not condone "progressive movements" in the Church. The church does not condone political activities at places of worship. BYU is a church-sponsored university, and it has an honor code, and the Church has the right to hire professors whose teachings and actions do not go contrary to Church doctrine and policies. As a student at BYU, I was free to discuss any opinion, political or otherwise. Whether you believe the Lord is in charge of his church or not--- the church has the right to control its own institutions. As a single man, I had an honor code at BYU. I had 3 gay friends at BYU. They had the same honor code. He is asking that Professors not teach counter to the Church teachings. He is not asking members to treat others with anything but love. The problem with being Gay at BYU is you can't have sexual relationships with the same or opposite sex and keep your honor code. Why did you go to BYU if you had no intention to keep it? People leave the church but they can leave it alone. If you have other beliefs why struggle here. You need to be where you can be happy. If I were not happy in the church I might leave. My sister-in-law is a loving happy person but she is keeping her covenants she has made in the Temple. I think this is very simple!
@@paulgoodwin2224 Context is everything. And yes, John knows what the Mormons endured in Missouri and Illinois, being driven from their homes, lashed with a cat of nine tails, shot, beaten, killed as in Haun's Mill Massacre. Musket is a reference to defense, not offense. And making a living on such lies is a very sad and condemning mode of behavior.
Agree 100%.
I used to love Jeffery Holland. I thought he was so loving and kind. But I realized I was non- binary and queer no less then 2 months before he gave this talk. When I heard it my leaving the church was cemented. I realized he was no man of God. And it hurt because I really liked him and he was the first church leader I got to meet in person so to see this twisted face of his was a real wake up call. In my opinion no man of God would ever call for violence. Ammonites anyone?
P.s. I know their sons were called to go to war but they were actually being killed.
I am neither ExMo or Mormon nor am I a member of the LGTBQ+ community, BUT I LOVE people REGARDLESS OF WHOM THEY LOVE! And this makes me so angry! We don’t need any fringe group being riled up at any level. But, this Elder has crossed a line and I really believe that he will find that he has turned away more than he gains. The LGTBQ+ community has and ALWAYS hold a dear place in my heart and I love EVERYONE of you. You will ALWAYS have an ally in me♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️🌈🌈🌈🌈
So very sad! Even when I was a TBM my children all knew and know that I love them no matter what. How sad for those kids and young adults that feel that they have to hide who they are just to be accepted. 💔
This podcast is so good!! Thank you!
The moment God put light and truth into the frail and faulty human race, of course there’ll be crap creeping in. I love Jesus. I love our human race. I weep when I hear these hate/fear-charged speeches. Thank you , John Dehlin, for standing up for marginalized humans. Your passionate speaking comes not from obsession as one conmen said. It comes from empathy and grief for the people suffering pain he’s witnessed from hurt people, from the suicides. I’m sorry my syntax is messed up. I’m hurting that anyone would attack another person. This is the End of Days when “men’s hearts shall fail them and they will be past feeling.” Mr. Holland’s speech. Heartless.
Comment. Haha. My great typo said, “conmen!” I make my own self laugh. Really, though. The guy had it in for you, Dr. Dehlin!! Big attack. Yikes.
Thus video broke my shelf almost a year ago. Thanks John, Gerardo and Carah! And, I suppose, thanks to Holland for pushing me right along to Mormon Stories with your hateful, disgusting rhetoric.
Eta Thanks Kyle also for all you do!
Jehova's Witnesses ALSO proclaim that theirs is the one and only true church on this earth. It's interesting how both faiths have large presences on social media with stories of their members harmed by the religion and with perilous exit stories with both religions. Its fascinating to observe both sides.
Isn’t it convenient how members of every church on this Earth just happen to be members of the “one and only true” church? Or “the truth”? 😂
Don’t forget the cult of Scientology, along with the JW’s and Mormons, part of the unholy Trinity of US Religious Cults.
@Paper Magpie
Honestly that’s why the Baháʼís may be onto something… Even though it’s ALSO an organized religion run by corruptible men, I like how they just own up to the fact that all religions claim to be the truth
Their church is obviously a scam. BuT MInE iS obViOUslY the onE TrUe ChUrcH!
I've watched several of your podcasts and I feel for you all so much. I've been trying to summarize in my mind what it is that has been so bothersome to me. What is niggling at me so much? At this point, I think it's that I perceive you all, ALL, as super kind, intelligent, talented, worldly, ambitious, and so much more. What I feel deep down, also, is that you are constantly on the defense. You have a fight or a war and your fighting with people who are evil, pathological, and narcissistic. It is because of who we fight against that we never feel heard or that we'll never walk away feeling as a winner. There seems to always be the need to defend why you left and you're defending yourselves against crazy people. It is so clear that they do not care even for a second who you are, who you really are, which is loving, caring, people who are doing, REALLY DOING, good in the world. I would really love to see and hear all that wonderful power within us all to just finally stick it to the man, if you will. Why not? This cult has been and is still getting away with many different kinds of abuses. I often want to shout out, Don't defend them. Remember they represent pedophiles. What is there to defend. You are damned if you do and damned if you don't. Why not STOP giving away your wonderful and loving power to this crazy organization? Why not STOP so deeply caring what the heck the bishops, apostles, and narrow minded members think? I think I get why it is so painful, but I believe part of the difficulty with leaving has to do so much with the continuation of their abuse during the purposefully drawn out and extremely manipulative exiting process. That seems so obviously abusive by design. They draw you in only to spit you out in the end. You are feeding right into the lions mouth when you drag on and play along with their crazy exiting scheme. You are giving your power away the minute you respond to their abusive exiting processes. With the utmost respect, Pia.
It saddens me to see Holland be very violent in his speech. I left the church 2015. For exactly this, the homophobia and the rhetoric. I lost respect for some of these guys, knowing who they are really catering to. I joined for the inclusion but then it became a "us vs them." The LDS church is what took my faith away and the critical thinking. I'm a humanist and care for everyone. I don't care about your sexual orientation as long as you have a kindred spirit. There were times where I did have to pause the video because I did get uncomfortable with what he said. No child should feel left out to want to end their lives. I'm so distraught that it's hard for me to fathom the idea of losing a friend or anyone due to suicide. I say we should all show up to BYU and let our voices be heard.
Wow, he just isn’t going to give this up. However, the good news is these protests are exactly what happened right before the church changed their minds on the blacks holding the priesthood.
It amazes me how the church throws individuals under the bus for its institutional concerns
There is vast graveyard of dead LGBT+ from suicide, and they aren't sorry at all.
A lot like most other religions throughout what the victors backed by religions call history... so yeah, of course they did. Sad.
Sad that Vulcans and Elves as a whole have a better sense of humanity than humanity does.
Maybe some day, maybe some day bigots will evolve past their programming.In retrospect considering the organizations trek record,not likely anytime soon .Bidding time so the ol’ Skeksis can try and steal everyone’s essence away via apologetics,tithing and flat out deceit.
It’s because the LDS Church doesn’t actually worship and revolve around Jesus Christ… Jesus Christ is just the window dressing
The LDS Church revolves around and worships itself. Its institutional history. Its leaders past and present.
Always. The institution always comes first.
@@coyotelong4349 Don’t forget MONEY, that’s always paramount. Political Power as well.
The higher you build that wall.....
The taller I become 🌈🌈🌈🌈🌈🌈🌈🌈
I thoroughly enjoyed your rant to Elder Holland❤❤❤❤❤
If the church accepts homosexuals into their club, then they won't be able to sell tickets to their temple to receive blessings to become gods and procreate in the celestial kingdom.
@@tedgarrison8842 that’s funny, I hear that beliefs from those around me all the time. Guess they realized there are too many men to have them each get their own earth?
@@tedgarrison8842 Many apparently still believe that. Mostly older.
People who preach against divisiveness are almost always arguing for maintaining the status quo.
He intentionally chose the militaristic word commandeer, which means to take possession of by force. The student was the valedictorian, he earned the right to give the commencement address, not some coup general! Make no mistake, this talk is a dehumanising attack on the valedictorian and all LBGTQ+ people.
His physical safety could well be at risk now.
And that valedictorian's speech had been pre-approved.
@Tanya Cummins Exactly.
Excellent and important dialog. Holland's goal was to instill fear: the apostles are going to punish "wayward" students who make noise; professors who offer asylum to those "wayward" students; and BYU presidents & administrators who tolerate "wayward" students or professors. The apostles always fall back on the "thou shalt not criticize our perfect flawless selves."
LDS/Mormon Church is so irrelevant to the rest of the world that it doesn't really compute. The Bishop talking sounds like something out of a B rated movie (and the way he witters seems unappealing and insincere). I wish the Community could look outside of themselves and understand their place in the world and their faith's unstable foundation.
Yet YOURE COMMENTING ABOUT IT 😅🤣
Can you just imagine if Jesus was literally there? I just see him shaking his head at Elder Holland in disappointment because he's going against everything Jesus stood for of LOVE and inclusivity. There is room for ALL of God's children...I always hated the DIVISIVE nature of the church in treating me like an outsider when I literally followed everything I was supposed without literally believing for years. if there's no division of gender or us vs. them mentality, there's no system and if there's no system, there's no church. God would have to govern each individual personally. We all have our own wifi router connected to the source. I think I was meant to be LGBT to teach my family and the church members in my life that there's more to life than the church. It's breaking down the church with LOVE! Kinda beautiful...when Holland dies on that hill, we can post rainbow flags. One day he will see the truth! There's so many like me...David Archuleta:) We were born this way for a reason and God is making a statement here! Blow all your dog whistles you want, Elder Holland. The strongest of your troops don't want to fight...they want to love.
I think the leaders believe having a “other “ is healthy for the church . Something to be above , something to distinguish themselves from. But I also think the church will fully include lgbt people. It’s not something they can avoid. It’s much larger than a handful of men.
LGBTQ are included, as long as they refrain from acting upon those feelings. It is not up to any mortal to change the church, it is to to God.
@@elouise5593 “everyone is included if they act the same, speak the same, believe the same, think the same, and dress the same as me.” That’s not inclusion that’s oppression
@E Louise I don't believe God made these rules. These rules are manmade, and at that, by old men.
There are no pejoratives, DSM Ill prognoses, or naughty words in any language appropriate- or accurate to the meanness of these "men"
As a TBM Holland was one of my favorite apostles, so to have him talk this way is extra sad, even though I am well out of the church and at peace with my lgbtqia self.
I don't understand why people are so surprised when Mormon apostles say the same things they've been saying for decades. It isn't unsustainable and they don't care about bad publicity. They can keep this up forever.
Nice try. But fortunately the “Great and Spacious Building” of Mormonism is literally cracking and crumbling under the the massive weight of all their documented, verified and proven lies.
I would have liked to see a Lesbian on this panel. Balance, respect and a refreshing female perspective
Me too.
I was so mad when I saw this talk from Holland that I stopped reading this before the end. It is so sad and heartbreaking for me.
So sad and hurt .😥 great episode, very validating
No church has the right to get involved with body autonomy and need to stay out of enforcing vaccines as we have free agency. Christ rebelled against politicians and beaurocrats. He would also sit with the LGBTQ and not judge. I don't support the agenda, but I fully support the community and pray LGBTQ community gets the love and acceptance needed. There should be no suicides or mental health decline due to narrow mindedness.
The message this sends is that at its core the church is white, male, american, polygamous, capitalist, and conservative. The backlash it takes from its core any time it tries to become more inclusive to women, blacks, internationals, progressives, and the lgbtq+ community is astounding to watch
The funny thing is that it's not trying to become more inclusive to women, blacks, internationals, progressives and the ldbtq+ community. Didn't you even watch his talk?
@@daverichards308 It is however.
Liberal - Far left as well!
Love all of you wonderful people! ♥️
If you think being gay is a sin, that’s hateful, hurtful and homophobic period.
About him being weepy... the only time I saw my dad cry was when he bore his testimony. Could church be an outlet for expressing emotion that otherwise would be looked down on? I firmly believe we all need to process and express emotion so now I'm very curious. They cry about delusional things but at least they cry.
They do it on purpose, to hopefully get your feelings to feel the "spirit" which is manipulative.
Fake cry
Sentimentalism is a powerful manipulation tool widely used by churches, oddly and ironically the scriptures teach that the Holy Spirit does not communicate through emotions but by intelligence, light and truth.
It worked as Manipulation to get people to feel sorrow and feel bad for him. I never noticed it before either… I have been a member 32 yrs and fell for all this emotional crap thinking it was the spirit. Now that I’m awake and aware… his crying is disgusting to me. And honestly, people should take it as insulting to them because he honestly thinks you’re stupid enough to believe him.
Yeah I get he's being manipulative and that's reallly gross.
I'm just sort of "pondering" on the idea as a whole. Men having an outlet to cry.
And if it's not a true outlet, can you be manipulative without realizing how sinister it is?
And it's hard for me to believe my dad was manipulating people on purpose. But now I'm considering the possibility.
Anyway, just typing my thoughts I guess.
Need more Karah commentary in this. A good episode and a frustrating step backwards
As a sixth-generation Mormon (now thankfully recovered and happy), and as a gay man who came out a number of years ago, I am neither surprised nor caught off guard by Jeffrey Holland‘s comments. What I am is thoroughly disgusted. However, once one understands that the Mormon church is all about money, power, control, and survival, none of its leaders’ statements or tactics - no matter how extreme, destructive, revolting, or snidely manipulative - should astonish anyone. Still, Holland’s “call to arms” is not only beyond insulting and hurtful, it may just prove to be deadly to some of my LGBTQ sisters and brothers, and I don’t think he cares. AT ALL. (See “money, power, control, and survival“ explanation.)
6th gen here, too. Descended from the Knights. My situation and thoughts exactly!
@@parrotlover9035 💖
I'm so sad and so tired.
You said that after Elder Holland’s talk, many people are going to resign or considering resign their membership in the Church. How do you have this information? With millions or members of the Church worldwide, what do you consider many? Or is it just your assumption? What is the validity of your affirmation about it?
5 BYU students attempted suicide today.
Oh! So sad! 😭Do you have a news source for this? Not seeing info anywhere.
Impressive interview. Thank you.
It implies physical? It sounds a bit like mount your horse, charge? The only thing he didn't say was . "I will lead the charge". I'm sick! My heart is aching.
Personally, any man who can summon up tears. At a used car opening. Either has a problem or knows his audience!
Everything about Holland's remarks were abhorrent. As an apostle and former BYU president, Holland must know full well how valedictorian speeches are approved. To accuse this highly accomplished young person of "commandeering" the platform is simply lying. He earned his podium spot at graduation through his academic achievements. His speech, as Kyle confirms, was reviewed and given the green light. If Holland wishes to criticize that approval, he needs to go straight to the administration instead of publicly and unfairly attacking a rank-and-file vulnerable BYU alum.
In the larger picture, the ongoing culture war driven by ultra-conservatives and the religious right in the wake of the civil rights movement is finally failing in the US and Europe, though there is a long way to go. This is thanks to decades of brave activism working towards a more perfect union in these United States. But that arc of justice doesn't bend smoothly. And to be fair, the secular and scientific world shares some blame. For decades now, though, bad ideas and bad science around gender and sexual identity have been discredited as new research and data emerges. The courts continue to affirm this.
However, factions of the LDS leadership will apparently continue to double down until the balance shifts far enough - or enough time goes by for substantial leadership changes and societal/government pressure. See also priesthood and temple ban for blacks.
What is prophetic power for, if not to get periodic updates from HF to keep up with the earthly societal times? Or perhaps the Q15 are just acting as men.
Or maybe they never will change on this - with a few hundred billion dollars banked, faithful and former LGBTQ+ members are apparently expendable. Which, yes, is abhorrent. As the stampede out the door from more progressive members increases, TBMs and radical DezNat types may just grow stronger and more self-righteous and vehement in their biases, discriminatory beliefs, and practices. Yes, the church has the constitutional right to prohibit religious marriage, other religious rites, and to set discriminatory policies at its campuses, no matter the harm to its members. For those of us who celebrate marriage equality and full legal and civil rights for our LGBTQ+ fellow humans, at this point just stop interferring with secular law and policy in this regard.
Those who defend the musket speech please respond:
I myself am not LGBTQ (CHECK);
I do not have an LGBTQ sibling (CHECK);
I do not have an LGBTQ child (CHECK);
I do not have an LGBTQ friend (that I know of) (CHECK);
I love my neighbor as I love myself (so long as he/she is not LGBTQ) (CHECK);
I change the channel when Ellen or RuPaul comes on (CHECK);
I would rather get wet than use a rainbow umbrella (CHECK);
I believe being LGBTQ is a choice (CHECK).
Regarding the author of the letter Holland quoted: he mentioned receiving information from donors, and the document was referenced as a “memo,” not a “letter.” This is likely someone on the finance committee overseeing donations - and that is probably the source of their concerns - funding.
Yep, always follow the money.
The church is a business after all. It disgusts me.
That is a lie.
@@stephtimms1776 you’re confusing “lie” with “observation.”
18:40-18:45 he references a “memo” indicating an internal document from another administrator or employee rather than “letter” which would indicate it coming from outside the university.
19:20 he refers to “several” parents who no longer want their children to attend the school, and who no longer want to donate to the school.
If this is not someone on a committee that deals with donations, then it’s anecdotal evidence and could be ignored as a possible outlier.
Feel free to point out where I’ve “lied”
@@ausnetting You asserted the likely source of their concerns to be funding. That is not true. Their concerns are for the spiritual health of everyone. To suggest their main concern is probably financial is an attack on faith in Jesus Christ.
This is classic LDS playbook, cry, condemn, cry and don’t leave room for people who look and think and sounds different to you. The mormon experience is so rigid in its definition and leaves no space for free thought.
The rhetoric about what next at the commencement reminds me of the horrible things said about gay marriage. Opposers would say what next, marriage to animals?
Years ago I had a friend at BYU who wrote for The Daily Universe (as people know, the BYU school newspaper). He was asked to go undercover and try to find these "secret" gay groups on campus. He did his research, he had his notes and when certain people would have been implicated, he was told that the story was too hot to touch and to actually burn his notes. This was back in the day as well when they had shock therapy also to "cure" gays. Very sad. From what I have read 5-10% of LDS teens are LGBTQ. Teen suicides in UT are some of the highest in the country. It's tough I am sure being gay and LDS. On the one side you are told that God made you wonderful, on the other side you aren't going to "heaven" unless you deny who and what you are as God made you? WOW. And now Elder Holland's comments? This is what the Lord's Church has turned into? A bunch of old, wealthy, white men running a Church which was started by men who were a lot younger and also "restored" by a man just barely out of his teens..... Come on now!
seeing john get so angry brought me the spirit more than reading the book of mormon ever did lol
It's clear they want everyone to believe that they lead by divine command and are therefore infallible. That's a high horse to ride, and falling may be more likely than they think.
Elder Holland is such a beautiful and compassionate man. So grateful for the light he brings. I loved his talk, and also his approach to maintaining truth and obedience.
At least he's calling for Muskets rather than AR-15s.
As an exMormon lesbian, I would love to see more lesbian and transgender people on the podcast!
Me too Keroanne.
Perhaps you could be one of them, Keroanne....send them your story!!
@@roxannegodsey8997 Hah, I’ve not got that interesting of a tale. I could try, though!
Gerardo needs to be a Spanish interviewer
Just submitted my resignation this morning.
Gotta love the complete lack of boundaries in mormonism. Imagine writing a private letter to a church official only for it to be read out at a conference.
Yes, except from past history it was most likely made up to be used as a rhetorical device
You guys are all amazing & thank you so much for what you do & expressing your opinions. THE CHURCH IS WRONG. Most unChristlike things you can do & say. Thank you for your voices!!
Also, somebody coming out during their graduation speech is not right, just like a person proposing to another during the graduation speech is not right. The graduation speech is for the class as a whole, and not a moment to focus on one person. I am a gay member of the Church, but I don’t think it’s right to come out in such circumstances. It’s just not right
You should interview the actors who played in the singles ward and the RM. (Will Swenson and Kirby Heyborne)
I don't understand why people would expect the church to change the church position. I am atheist so I have no objection to LBGT rights but I can see that church leaders cannot change their position. They have said all along that homosexuality is against God, so changing church doctrine would mean God had changed his mind. But, I would have said the same about giving P.O.C. the priesthood, and yet, the Prophet heard from God that it was time to give them the priesthood. Maybe public pressure will cause God to change his mind about being gay.
It’s interesting that the Gospel is about Live your neighbour, be like Jesus, accept our Brother’s and Sisters…. But cannot find it in their heart or talks about acceptance of our LGBTQT family
I don't understand. The bible is clear about homosexuality. Why do LGBTQ expect churches to change the bible to suit them? And don't reply that it's the same as being discriminated for being black. It's not. The bible does not say that black people are cursed. But it does specifically say homosexuality is a sin.
I hate when they start crying in the middle of a talk. It makes me cringe 😬
It's not really crying because it's acting. They do it in every conference talk, but always toward the end. Notice how they never break down though. It's a skill.
Do we know that letter is even real? Seems suspiciously like “I heard from a friend of a friend that her friend heard from her friend that so and so was very upset at how Liberal the Faculty at BYU has become”
That letter is as real as JRH's tears.
@@windigo44 which is to say not real at all
@@johnsax1445 Of course. When you become a G.A. you get a special blessing endowing you with the power to cry on cue.
Holland is an Apostle with a capital A. Whatever he says goes. If what he says is against the will of the Lord he would be removed. He is still there, everything he said is standard canon. Follow the Prophet, stay in the boat, don't be foolish.
@Paper Magpie the Second great law is to love your neighbor. it's easy for me to love you
We can debate the accommodation, or lack there of, for those who make choices that are not consistent with the doctrine of the church, but I can’t imagine a scenario where the church would alter the doctrine to accommodate lifestyle choices that are inconsistent with the doctrine.
If the doctrine becomes malleable, in order to accommodate every lifestyle choice, it is no longer eternal.
There are some things that will inevitably remain out of reach to those who make alternative lifestyle choices. Such as, priesthood office and temple recommends.
This legit scares me! :(
Acceptance is so very important-Creator loves everyone! We Lakota Oglala do not use nouns or pronouns! Mother and Father are functions -verbs- Refer to David Little Elk! Far left and Far right are 1/2 teaspoon away from each other!
Around the 43:00 mark you reference the quote from Boyd K Packer when he tells of the missionary who “floored” his companion. When I read that talk, I interpreted it as this missionary actually tried to do something sexual/commit sexual assault, but in this video you said that the missionary punched his companion simply for coming out as gay. Is that actually what happened? Did this missionary really K.O. his companion simply for saying “I’m gay”? This is a very important distinction. P.S. I’m a gay Mormon in deep distress, I’m not a gay basher nor a Mormon basher, just someone trying to get the facts.
Oh no how dare Elder Holland demand the faculty support the Church’s teachings.
Is there a way to include in each Mormon Stories a link to know how to officially resign from the church and remove my name from the records?
Glad to see they mentioned “This Is My Doctrine” by Charles Harrell. It’s an excellent resource