I first went to Waterloo aged 10 in 1970. I had boxes of the small Airfix highlanders and french cuirrasiers. Later they brought out more in the range. I had seen the Dino de Laurentus film 'Waterloo' that year also. In 1970 the battlefield in Belgium was comparatively a peaceful place. The motorway behind the allied lines had not been built. The road past La Hayne Sainte was not as busy as today. It was cobbled and occasionally a citroen would wizz by or a tied down lorry. At 10 years I had the Airfix farmhouse and at that point did not know about Hougoumont's part in the battle. Having read up about the battle's defence I was still obsessed and joined the Coldstream Guards in 1976 at 17 1/2. The Guards Depot training was tough and soon battered out of me the romance and glory of Waterloo. And off I went to be a soldier, the realisation that not everyone was 'fired' up about Waterloo and military history made me question myself what I was doing? So having been offered the Royal Engineers in the recruiting office originally, 3 years down the line in a Guards battalion saw me transferring out to become a Sapper in the Royal Engineers, after combat engineer training. To cut a long story short I found the RE more convivial to my interests even joining a wargames club! Over the decades I got to visit Waterloo several times. After my Army service I went to University and in 2015 found myself in Hougoumont with 'Waterloo Uncovered' doing archaeology on the site. The highlight of this was finding a brown bess musket ball in Phil Hardings trench which we worked out was fired at the French from the north gate by a member of my old regiment defending it. And I was the first to pick it up since that time. That was 'real' history for me. The first time I got to Hougoumont, it was a sleepy hollow as the motorway behind it had not been built. I recall the farmer reprimanding me for parking my camper van too close to his building. I apologised and explained I would'nt be long just wanted to look around. It was a working farm then with all its smells, animals and ambiance. So different to the clinical way it is today. In later years I got into re-enactment and did Waterloo as well as the anniversary of Corunna (2009-1809) in Spain and visited Peninsular battlesites in Portugal. In 2025 (health permitting) I hope to visit again. Which will be my 55 years association with Waterloo since visiting it at aged 10 in 1970.
There’s definitely a romance to the iconic Battle of Waterloo. As an American, I grew up loving our epic, sweeping, continent-wide battles (American Civil War) and my favorite battle was of course the glorious Battle of Gettysburg, Pennsylvania. I knew of the Napoleonic Wars but it wasn’t until recently that I even gave it any serious thought. My introduction to the Napoleonic Wars was at a Military Through the Ages program at a local museum in the late ‘90s or early ‘00s. I did not really explore Waterloo until about five or ten years later when I got to “Sharpe’s Waterloo” as I went through the Richard Sharpe series on DVD and audiobook. Since then I have watched the wonderful Bondarchuck “Waterloo” (1970) and numerous videos by Robert Gagne, this channel, Epic History, and others that have given me a basic understanding of the battle and the Napoleonic Wars. I have also started reading Jeremy Black’s “The Battle of Waterloo.”
So in summary, Tim's points are as follows, and less colorfully than the full chat ... (1.) Iconic Matchup (2.) Brand Recognition (3.) Intensely Studied (4.) Expectations of the Armies (5.) Wide Variety & Coolness of Forces (6.) Put On A Game For Many Parts Of The Battle (7.) Full of What Ifs, Thus Full of More Possible Scenarios (8.) A Brief, Self-Contained Campaign (9.) Achievable Armies For Modeling (10.) The Sheer Romance & Drama Of The History
I think the old Airfix range had a big role in getting people into Napoleonics and wargaming in general. Waterloo had the iconic commanders, was decisive, dramatic and the Brits (and their allies) won!
I got pulled into Napoleonics at the age of nine thru an article on painting toy soldiers in Boy's Life magazine. I had just found an Airfix AWI 54mm Coninental soldier, and well...down a rabbit hole for over 40 years!
Waterloo got me interested in the time period as a child. After 30yrs of reading about it there's much more interesting battles and campaigns ,come on black powder we the Danube campaign. Waterloo is still iconic. When people ask me about my armies I always reference Waterloo so the unfamiliar understand the time period.
My influence for Napoleonic wargaming over decades - in order; 1) Timpo toy soldiers 2) Airfix soldiers - back then even some corner convenience stores sold airfix kits and soldiers 3) Waterloo 1970 movie 4) Dad getting convinced to take me to Hobby and Military wargame shows and exhibits\ions
Dublin has Wellington Bridge aka the Ha’penny bridge. Wellington quay, Waterloo road and a the largest obelisk in Europe, 62m, the Wellington memorial.
Nice video. I own no Napoleonics but I think following Warlord Games tester with Blackpowder Epic ACW they’re next set will be the Waterloo campaign. I’m hoping that they announce this, this weekend, at there open day with a probable delivery next spring. I’ll be in and then I’ll be going through all the videos on this channel. Of course they may go for ECW……
Really? Their business model for the "Epic" ACW was to produce cheap identical sprues for the bread and butter troops of both sides and then add over-priced figure packs for the special units (zouaves, cavalry etc). That simply won't work for Napoleonics - think of the howls of outrage from Napoleonic button counters if they tried the same thing. Which rather limits the conflicts where their business model would work - the only two I can think of (off the top of my head) are the ECW/TYW and the WSS/GNW. Of course it might be that they sold enough ACW sprues to justify designing and producing different sprues for each nation...
@@malcolmrose3361 I think the ACW model was to test the market for the scale and minimise the risk through reuse of sprues. I agree that’s not possible with the significant uniform differences between the French and allied units, but assuming ACW was a success then a French and separate English spru approach is not that hard to imagine. I think the ACW pricing of rarer/smaller troop types was to see if the market could bare small production runs or whether cheaper alternatives would be used. I’m a real ‘button counter’ where scale is concerned and only used my Kalistra command is drummer boys, the mounted figures look like a ‘midget rodeo’ against their WG equivalents.
It's interesting to hear the talk of Sharpe's Waterloo. I absolutely loved the Sharpe TV series in general, but I didn't enjoy that episode very much at all. Quite aside from the very unfair portrayal of the Dutch and Willem II, it made the most famous climactic battle in history feel like a minor skirmish.
From what I recall Bernard Cornwell was pressured into writing the book by his publisher & regretted it. If you want a good portrayal of the battle the 1970 film Waterloo does a good job
Waterloo captured my imagination as a 6 year old when Time/Life magazine did an article for the 150th anniversary. The paintings were magnificent and led me to the hobby store to buy some Airfix! As for gaming I would miss the Austrians, Russians, Bavarians, Poles, Wurtemburgers, Portuguese, Spanish and Swiss too much.
@@213thAIB Sadly my copy has been lost to history but the images live on, especially the one of the Prussians forcing Plancenoit and an officer in the front has a stunned look on his face and a hole in his hat. Even at 6 I recognized the sacrifice made by these men and the sheer terror of being on the field. The power of those paintings can never be underestimated.
The novel in which a main character gets killed at Waterloo is 'Vanity Fair' By Wm Makepeace Thackeray. The character is George Osborne. "Raised to be a selfish, vain, profligate spender, handsome and self-obsessed, George squanders the last of the money he receives from his father and sets nothing aside to help support Amelia. After marrying Amelia, he finds after a couple of weeks that he is bored. He flirts with Becky quite seriously and is reconciled to Amelia only a short time before he is killed in battle.' (Wikipedia) Sgt Troy is from 'Far From the Madding Crowd,' Thomas Hardy.
Interesting to hear your thoughts. Since the Great Game I have been turned off the 100 Days as I felt like I had kind of done it in the grandest way possible (what a humble brag...), but I have Prussians in the pile of shame and I have become much more intrigued by the idea of Ligny or Plancenoit since watching your videos on them. The almost natural way the battlefield(s) are divided by the terrain (farms and villages especially) really does give much opportunity to explore the little moments in time in isolation from each other.
Vanity Fair! A couple of years back did an excellent portrayal of the battle on the BBC. I was quite impressed as previous 'Vanity Fairs' used to skip it. And as you say the Doctor strange and mr m interpretation of the defence of Hougoumont was the best one I have seen! All tjat mud!
For me Peninsula British are a bit boring and you get very little cavalry whereas the 100 days you get some iconic units and the allies are so much better
I’m late to this video, but hoping you see this. Ever since reading “Crisis on the Danube” the 1809 Danube campaign has been an itch waiting to be scratched for me. What other books would you recommend that would inspire me to finally jump in on your favorite campaign? Thank you in advance!
Honestly, for me, it was the Aspern and Wagram Osprey campaign book. They also do one of Eckmuhl which is the same campaign. The CotD series is fantastic, obv. There's a novel called The Battle (not to be confused with the one of the same name about Waterloo). It's basically the French version of The Killer Angels. It's...ok. The one I'd recommend in addition is this one. Napoleon and the Archduke Charles: A History of the Franco-Austrian Campaign in the Valley of the Danube 1809 (Napoleonic Library) amzn.eu/d/ecpEHaL
@@NapoleonicWargaming thank you very much. I’ll be picking up the Osprey books and the latter book for sure. If you haven’t read Crisis on the Danube, I HIGHLY recommend it.
I think you over estimate Wellington and under estimate Napoleon. Napoleon was so sick he should have been in bed and was unfit to lead at the battle so Napoleon was not in the right mind to fight. If he was healthy I believe we would have a different ending of the battle.
Of all the "big battles" of the Napoleonic wars, this is the one on the smallest battlefield and can fit on an accessible sized table, especially with grand tactical rules and larger unit representation.
My point is always - why do people play mainly the 100 days, that covers only four battles? And yet I collect 1815 Prussians. They will be updated for the War of the 6th coallition for sure. But the thinh is- The 100 Days is probably the best entry point, because there is so much material on it. If not for Waterloo I would probably drop napoleonics, because I would got frustrated trying to find easy to obtain sources on the uniforms and orders of battle for lesser known battles. So yes- The 100 Days is overrepresented, done to death, but still the easiest napoleonic war to get into.
@@NapoleonicWargaming I would be a lot better if people would also gave a bit more love to Ligny, Quatre Bras and Wavre. Specialy Wavre as it's a delaying action so it is a refreshement from lining up and breaking the enemy army.
The best reason Waterloo is good for diorama and wargame is because it is in field people can only imagine how awful is when battle is on a hill that has strange shape also best battle for wargame is one which has movie based on historically accurate details god do I hate battle movies in which battle is inaccurate
Just coming to this one from the part 2 (yt recommended the other video first, so that's my gateway). Just like there, you make a sound argument (which, to my personal amusement, doesn't contradict your criticism for why Waterloo is bad for Napoleonic Wargaming).
It really wasn’t a battle between blue and red uniforms…not even close. If you’re talking about Quatre Bras, then you would add the Dutch, Hanoverians, and the Brunswickers, then Ligny had no red uniforms to speak of given the allied army was Prussian and Waterloo was bigger than Napoleon and Wellington as Blucher had a huge role. To just gloss over the fact that the majority of troops were not British diminishes the commentary for me.
I did mention that despite the simplistic view of it being iconically red vs blue, that's not the case. Twice... Still, I hope you find the second part more to your liking. Incidentally, the Hanoverians wore red too ;)
That’s the point, for the everyday person in the uk for example, they might have heard of Waterloo, but not much else besides the fact that it was a victory that Britain was involved in. That red v blue narrative gives them a sense of familiarity that could draw them into the period, where there is a whole depth of diversity and knowledge for them to explore. If you are looking at getting someone into historical Wargaming, are you going to do an obscure battle that they have never heard of or something that they are slightly familiar with to capture their imagination for the period and leads to them wanting to find out more?
Your what if section makes me recall the stupid deadliest warrior series….George Washington vs Napoleon and according to their “experts” Washington would win….um
I first went to Waterloo aged 10 in 1970. I had boxes of the small Airfix highlanders and french cuirrasiers. Later they brought out more in the range. I had seen the Dino de Laurentus film 'Waterloo' that year also. In 1970 the battlefield in Belgium was comparatively a peaceful place. The motorway behind the allied lines had not been built. The road past La Hayne Sainte was not as busy as today. It was cobbled and occasionally a citroen would wizz by or a tied down lorry. At 10 years I had the Airfix farmhouse and at that point did not know about Hougoumont's part in the battle. Having read up about the battle's defence I was still obsessed and joined the Coldstream Guards in 1976 at 17 1/2.
The Guards Depot training was tough and soon battered out of me the romance and glory of Waterloo. And off I went to be a soldier, the realisation that not everyone was 'fired' up about Waterloo and military history made me question myself what I was doing? So having been offered the Royal Engineers in the recruiting office originally, 3 years down the line in a Guards battalion saw me transferring out to become a Sapper in the Royal Engineers, after combat engineer training.
To cut a long story short I found the RE more convivial to my interests even joining a wargames club!
Over the decades I got to visit Waterloo several times. After my Army service I went to University and in 2015 found myself in Hougoumont with 'Waterloo Uncovered' doing archaeology on the site. The highlight of this was finding a brown bess musket ball in Phil Hardings trench which we worked out was fired at the French from the north gate by a member of my old regiment defending it. And I was the first to pick it up since that time. That was 'real' history for me. The first time I got to Hougoumont, it was a sleepy hollow as the motorway behind it had not been built. I recall the farmer reprimanding me for parking my camper van too close to his building. I apologised and explained I would'nt be long just wanted to look around. It was a working farm then with all its smells, animals and ambiance. So different to the clinical way it is today.
In later years I got into re-enactment and did Waterloo as well as the anniversary of Corunna (2009-1809) in Spain and visited Peninsular battlesites in Portugal.
In 2025 (health permitting) I hope to visit again. Which will be my 55 years association with Waterloo since visiting it at aged 10 in 1970.
There’s definitely a romance to the iconic Battle of Waterloo. As an American, I grew up loving our epic, sweeping, continent-wide battles (American Civil War) and my favorite battle was of course the glorious Battle of Gettysburg, Pennsylvania. I knew of the Napoleonic Wars but it wasn’t until recently that I even gave it any serious thought. My introduction to the Napoleonic Wars was at a Military Through the Ages program at a local museum in the late ‘90s or early ‘00s. I did not really explore Waterloo until about five or ten years later when I got to “Sharpe’s Waterloo” as I went through the Richard Sharpe series on DVD and audiobook. Since then I have watched the wonderful Bondarchuck “Waterloo” (1970) and numerous videos by Robert Gagne, this channel, Epic History, and others that have given me a basic understanding of the battle and the Napoleonic Wars. I have also started reading Jeremy Black’s “The Battle of Waterloo.”
So in summary, Tim's points are as follows, and less colorfully than the full chat ...
(1.) Iconic Matchup
(2.) Brand Recognition
(3.) Intensely Studied
(4.) Expectations of the Armies
(5.) Wide Variety & Coolness of Forces
(6.) Put On A Game For Many Parts Of The Battle
(7.) Full of What Ifs, Thus Full of More Possible Scenarios
(8.) A Brief, Self-Contained Campaign
(9.) Achievable Armies For Modeling
(10.) The Sheer Romance & Drama Of The History
Ha, thanks! That's a decent summary!
I think the old Airfix range had a big role in getting people into Napoleonics and wargaming in general. Waterloo had the iconic commanders, was decisive, dramatic and the Brits (and their allies) won!
Still got an Airfix " Hougoumont" in its box!
@@khankrum1
Airfix never did a Hougoumont. They did the farmhouse 'la Hayne Sainte.'
I got pulled into Napoleonics at the age of nine thru an article on painting toy soldiers in Boy's Life magazine. I had just found an Airfix AWI 54mm Coninental soldier, and well...down a rabbit hole for over 40 years!
Waterloo got me interested in the time period as a child. After 30yrs of reading about it there's much more interesting battles and campaigns ,come on black powder we the Danube campaign. Waterloo is still iconic. When people ask me about my armies I always reference Waterloo so the unfamiliar understand the time period.
My influence for Napoleonic wargaming over decades - in order;
1) Timpo toy soldiers
2) Airfix soldiers - back then even some corner convenience stores sold airfix kits and soldiers
3) Waterloo 1970 movie
4) Dad getting convinced to take me to Hobby and Military wargame shows and exhibits\ions
In Sydney, NSW, Australia there is a suburb called, 'Waterloo', too.
Dublin has Wellington Bridge aka the Ha’penny bridge. Wellington quay, Waterloo road and a the largest obelisk in Europe, 62m, the Wellington memorial.
Nice video. I own no Napoleonics but I think following Warlord Games tester with Blackpowder Epic ACW they’re next set will be the Waterloo campaign. I’m hoping that they announce this, this weekend, at there open day with a probable delivery next spring. I’ll be in and then I’ll be going through all the videos on this channel. Of course they may go for ECW……
Yeah. If they follow the ACW model they'll want troops that can be both sides so I suspect ECW, though I'm crossing everything for samurai!
Really? Their business model for the "Epic" ACW was to produce cheap identical sprues for the bread and butter troops of both sides and then add over-priced figure packs for the special units (zouaves, cavalry etc). That simply won't work for Napoleonics - think of the howls of outrage from Napoleonic button counters if they tried the same thing. Which rather limits the conflicts where their business model would work - the only two I can think of (off the top of my head) are the ECW/TYW and the WSS/GNW. Of course it might be that they sold enough ACW sprues to justify designing and producing different sprues for each nation...
@@malcolmrose3361 I think the ACW model was to test the market for the scale and minimise the risk through reuse of sprues. I agree that’s not possible with the significant uniform differences between the French and allied units, but assuming ACW was a success then a French and separate English spru approach is not that hard to imagine. I think the ACW pricing of rarer/smaller troop types was to see if the market could bare small production runs or whether cheaper alternatives would be used. I’m a real ‘button counter’ where scale is concerned and only used my Kalistra command is drummer boys, the mounted figures look like a ‘midget rodeo’ against their WG equivalents.
I like the idea of asking random British people in the street about iconic battles xd
It's interesting to hear the talk of Sharpe's Waterloo. I absolutely loved the Sharpe TV series in general, but I didn't enjoy that episode very much at all. Quite aside from the very unfair portrayal of the Dutch and Willem II, it made the most famous climactic battle in history feel like a minor skirmish.
From what I recall Bernard Cornwell was pressured into writing the book by his publisher & regretted it.
If you want a good portrayal of the battle the 1970 film Waterloo does a good job
A new book on Sharpe is about to be released.
Waterloo captured my imagination as a 6 year old when Time/Life magazine did an article for the 150th anniversary. The paintings were magnificent and led me to the hobby store to buy some Airfix! As for gaming I would miss the Austrians, Russians, Bavarians, Poles, Wurtemburgers, Portuguese, Spanish and Swiss too much.
@@213thAIB Sadly my copy has been lost to history but the images live on, especially the one of the Prussians forcing Plancenoit and an officer in the front has a stunned look on his face and a hole in his hat. Even at 6 I recognized the sacrifice made by these men and the sheer terror of being on the field. The power of those paintings can never be underestimated.
The novel in which a main character gets killed at Waterloo is 'Vanity Fair' By Wm Makepeace Thackeray. The character is George Osborne. "Raised to be a selfish, vain, profligate spender, handsome and self-obsessed, George squanders the last of the money he receives from his father and sets nothing aside to help support Amelia. After marrying Amelia, he finds after a couple of weeks that he is bored. He flirts with Becky quite seriously and is reconciled to Amelia only a short time before he is killed in battle.' (Wikipedia)
Sgt Troy is from 'Far From the Madding Crowd,' Thomas Hardy.
Interesting to hear your thoughts. Since the Great Game I have been turned off the 100 Days as I felt like I had kind of done it in the grandest way possible (what a humble brag...), but I have Prussians in the pile of shame and I have become much more intrigued by the idea of Ligny or Plancenoit since watching your videos on them. The almost natural way the battlefield(s) are divided by the terrain (farms and villages especially) really does give much opportunity to explore the little moments in time in isolation from each other.
Great video looking forward to next installment.
There was a Danish army that was on its way to aid the allies but they got stuck in the Netherlands
Vanity Fair! A couple of years back did an excellent portrayal of the battle on the BBC.
I was quite impressed as previous 'Vanity Fairs' used to skip it.
And as you say the Doctor strange and mr m interpretation of the defence of Hougoumont was the best one I have seen! All tjat mud!
Dude, excellent commentary. I really enjoyed it.
Can you let me know what models/manufacturer are at 4:28 in the video please? I'm just getting into this and finding your videos really helpful!
For me Peninsula British are a bit boring and you get very little cavalry whereas the 100 days you get some iconic units and the allies are so much better
Another for the brand recognition - Waterloo also features in Thackeray's Vanity Fair
I know you said don't ask... but we really are going to have to ask about that North Vietnamese flag...
Amen! :D
Perhaps he's a commie and sending out propaganda via waterloo. 😂
I’m late to this video, but hoping you see this. Ever since reading “Crisis on the Danube” the 1809 Danube campaign has been an itch waiting to be scratched for me. What other books would you recommend that would inspire me to finally jump in on your favorite campaign? Thank you in advance!
Honestly, for me, it was the Aspern and Wagram Osprey campaign book. They also do one of Eckmuhl which is the same campaign. The CotD series is fantastic, obv. There's a novel called The Battle (not to be confused with the one of the same name about Waterloo). It's basically the French version of The Killer Angels. It's...ok.
The one I'd recommend in addition is this one. Napoleon and the Archduke Charles: A History of the Franco-Austrian Campaign in the Valley of the Danube 1809 (Napoleonic Library) amzn.eu/d/ecpEHaL
@@NapoleonicWargaming thank you very much. I’ll be picking up the Osprey books and the latter book for sure. If you haven’t read Crisis on the Danube, I HIGHLY recommend it.
I think you over estimate Wellington and under estimate Napoleon. Napoleon was so sick he should have been in bed and was unfit to lead at the battle so Napoleon was not in the right mind to fight. If he was healthy I believe we would have a different ending of the battle.
Possibly. I mean he seem to have had earlier fights that were equally terribly managed, I'm thinking particularly Borodino
Ah yes brand recognition- the worst of the Sharpe episodes
Of all the "big battles" of the Napoleonic wars, this is the one on the smallest battlefield and can fit on an accessible sized table, especially with grand tactical rules and larger unit representation.
My point is always - why do people play mainly the 100 days, that covers only four battles? And yet I collect 1815 Prussians. They will be updated for the War of the 6th coallition for sure. But the thinh is- The 100 Days is probably the best entry point, because there is so much material on it. If not for Waterloo I would probably drop napoleonics, because I would got frustrated trying to find easy to obtain sources on the uniforms and orders of battle for lesser known battles. So yes- The 100 Days is overrepresented, done to death, but still the easiest napoleonic war to get into.
Very well put!
@@NapoleonicWargaming I would be a lot better if people would also gave a bit more love to Ligny, Quatre Bras and Wavre. Specialy Wavre as it's a delaying action so it is a refreshement from lining up and breaking the enemy army.
Do you know any other campaigns that have their own ABBA song? No? DIDNT THINK SO
The best reason Waterloo is good for diorama and wargame is because it is in field people can only imagine how awful is when battle is on a hill that has strange shape also best battle for wargame is one which has movie based on historically accurate details god do I hate battle movies in which battle is inaccurate
Really liked the Video👍. Can you maybe do a video about the lützower freikorps?
Just coming to this one from the part 2 (yt recommended the other video first, so that's my gateway). Just like there, you make a sound argument (which, to my personal amusement, doesn't contradict your criticism for why Waterloo is bad for Napoleonic Wargaming).
Thought Sharpe's Trafalgar was a great book.
It really wasn’t a battle between blue and red uniforms…not even close. If you’re talking about Quatre Bras, then you would add the Dutch, Hanoverians, and the Brunswickers, then Ligny had no red uniforms to speak of given the allied army was Prussian and Waterloo was bigger than Napoleon and Wellington as Blucher had a huge role. To just gloss over the fact that the majority of troops were not British diminishes the commentary for me.
I did mention that despite the simplistic view of it being iconically red vs blue, that's not the case. Twice... Still, I hope you find the second part more to your liking. Incidentally, the Hanoverians wore red too ;)
That’s the point, for the everyday person in the uk for example, they might have heard of Waterloo, but not much else besides the fact that it was a victory that Britain was involved in. That red v blue narrative gives them a sense of familiarity that could draw them into the period, where there is a whole depth of diversity and knowledge for them to explore. If you are looking at getting someone into historical Wargaming, are you going to do an obscure battle that they have never heard of or something that they are slightly familiar with to capture their imagination for the period and leads to them wanting to find out more?
He does mention the allies but it was more for recognition.
Your what if section makes me recall the stupid deadliest warrior series….George Washington vs Napoleon and according to their “experts” Washington would win….um