i really appreciate that whether the topic is blacksmithing, history, or media analysis, Malcolm is informative, concise, and wryly funny! this would be a much better website to waste my time on if more people followed his lead
Id say the contextual build up of this fight had been brewing for 30 minutes before this. The unwillingness of Gandelf to enter, the bodies etc etc. This scene acts as a climax of those fears realised. Its even drawn out longer with them barring the door and remarking they have cave troll before we see it. Creating a sense of anticipation as the door is broken down.
as someone who does often feel themselves whining about how disorienting some action scenes are, I do agree with you that these disorienting qualities are narratively important. That's the key thing, isn't it? There are many action sequences in which their disorienting qualities seem unjustified, in a similar way to how some films have the camera slowly tracking around a shot-reverse shot scene of people sitting in a room talking seemingly just so that every single shot is dynamic. I much prefer the wide variety of shot composition that can speak a fuller cinematic language, and reserve the disorienting stuff for when the audience is supposed to feel the chaos and again, I agree that there is something silly about trying to boil down a singular correct method for shooting an action scene. Even the people who are held up as examples of action scenes "done correctly" violate the rules, for precisely what you bring up
I agree and would add that shaky cam and quick cuts when used effectively to convey a sense of chaos and sometimes fear can be great but its often used as a crutch for weak action scenes. Its a tool, whether its good or bad depends on how its used. Same as the oft-maligned CGI or ADR
I think in some way I personally think that this particular fight scene is good for capturing the chaos of a realistic fight despite not being totally realistic in every way.Granted there may be weird things thar don't make sense and fighting that many individuals with that small of a number would be quite difficult but it does capture the chaos of a real brawl and a genuine fight to the death.
I really appreciate your video's, people who just make video's because they feel they have something to say(or so i assume) as opposed to cranking out content to keep afloat in the algorithm are always worth the time.
This is my favorite topic from RUclipsrs who study the history of war and anthropology together, whether they specialize in one era/doctrine or branch into multiple. Sometimes the focus is on how historical fights and more realistic comics/movies/games should try to approach things. Sometimes, as in this video's case, the focus is on showing good fight scenes in stories (seems to apply firstly to movies, but also books/comics/oral sagas). It's a topic open to interpretation, but governed by real results, real psychology, real biomechanics (such as the variable speed and focus of the human eye), and quite a lot of evidence that makes it a vast topic to sink chew. It takes years to grasp through misconceptions, media-trained biases, and the desires behind tropes, and I've long watched you balance these weights with care. It's really all about the editing and cuts. From comics, to books, to movies, to speeches, everything relies on what you choose to focus on, for how long, and how those transitions guide the viewer up and down carefully paced tension arcs. So, what one chooses to leave out says a lot about their final work. Peter Jackson succeeded in Fellowship of the Ring by limiting his action shots to what his actors could feasibly do, plus what their stuntmen, cameramen, and music/sfx teams could add. And even in the Extended Edition, he cut out many of the "bloat" shots and much unnecessary filler/shock style ideas that would later remain in The Hobbit. Honestly, LOTR showed great restraint from Jackson, who as a young filmmaker was keen on epic gore and shockfests. I think the stunt directors deserve more credit than they're due, not just the actors and stuntmen who pulled it off. Also, Legolas was cool AF killing that troll, because you could see it was dangerous to him, but he finally overcame it while the rest of the entire party was defeated or held at bay by it. Without Legolas' superhuman abilities, the Fellowship would have died... And that scene finally brought it home that Gandalf wasn't the only immortal making damn sure the One Ring was destroyed. When I was a kid, I always liked that Legolas' broke his arrows on the troll's skull when he tried a double-shot. He had to shoot it through the roof of the mouth to finally brain it, and that was when I finally began to realize that Mordor was going to be like the nightmares that kept me awake as a four year old. Ahhh, it's good to digest and remember over time. Thanks for sharing your wisdom, sir.
I have just finished a re-read of The Fellowship of the Ring because my brother died while re-reading it in a very high-quality and heavy-to-hold volume full of Toklkien's own pictures. This may be my tenth full read, from The Hobbit to the Return of the King. I was always surprised that these were the dwarves' treasure chambers. The description made it clear it was some twenty by twenty with an oculus fifty feet up in the mountain's face. They did not have as much glory as they claimed, which seems right. Not a room with much room to fight.
When you play mostly strategy games with real time battles, you immediately understand why someone would say those are the techniques to shoot a good battle (i dont know about fights) for a film
so many movies today have exactly all the qualities of good technique at the total expense of the "narrative" that you mention. it is dire for the spirit to see so many blockbusters devoid of heart and content and imagine that as a reflection on the state of our culture...
The best fight scene I've ever seen is the dual at the end of Dune Part 2. Just unrelenting, unbelievably intense, amazingly choreographed. And it's when Paul demonstrates what's he willing to lose in order to win.
Also important to note that trying anything new that feels risky can be “disorienting” or at least very stimulating to those living the moment. This is a scenario where the characters could die. The hobbits are probably feeling pretty disoriented too. Cheers!
great video. One show that immediately comes to mind when it comes to great use of narrative tension in fight scenes is Andor. I wonder if you've watched it? I think you would enjoy it
I think the problem these guys have is they don't view the camera as a method of characterization. To them, the camera is strictly to be used to show the viewer the literal actions of the actors, not to portray anything about the scene, such as the chaos of combat with orcs in a claustrophobic dwarf tomb. The camera shakes imply stress, the tight shots help aid that feeling of close combat. Hell, you could even argue the continuity errors can be excused as portraying a phenomenon I've seen veterans talk about which is that combat is experienced almost unconsciously and you piece it together later, sometimes incorrectly.
My theory is people are so desperate for structure in their life they decide random aspect of media needs rote rules and set schemas for what makes something 'good' rather than taking the time to look at each thing holistically
i appreciate the warning at the beginning lol i was starting to go into an executive-dysfunction-fueled misery scroll. still, i'm glad i stopped to watch this video--good stufd
One point of disagreement: born and raised in Kansas and it looked EXACTLY like that. Joking aside, clean choreographed fight scenes can be entertaining, but they're not immersive. You watch this fight scene and it seems like a real fight. Noise and movement and confusion.
Well said, though I have to quibble with your comment at 1:45. You can have pretty realistic sword choreography that's also entertaining (example: ruclips.net/video/Cn36Pb8z3yI/видео.html), though I acknowledge that it's generally not necessary, and it's probably not easy to do.
This scene is supposed to be disorienting. The audience is supposed to feel overwhelmed white they are watching it. That's the point. Storytelling isn't made to have its details analyzed (even though that can be fun and enriching, it's just candy), it's supposed to rope you in and take you on a journey. And by the end of it, you feel like you've experienced something new and that you've changed.
Seems like apples and oranges to me. I prefer oranges, but that doesn't speak to the quality of any apple. My favorite pro wrestling matches are impressive on both fronts, and if only impressive on one front or the other, a match is going to be forgotten. Films are more about story, so they can get away with using story to sell the action, but better action is still better action, and story is simply not the same. Real fencing is not entertaining. Realistic well-choreographed fictional fencing is very entertaining.
i really appreciate that whether the topic is blacksmithing, history, or media analysis, Malcolm is informative, concise, and wryly funny! this would be a much better website to waste my time on if more people followed his lead
Id say the contextual build up of this fight had been brewing for 30 minutes before this. The unwillingness of Gandelf to enter, the bodies etc etc. This scene acts as a climax of those fears realised. Its even drawn out longer with them barring the door and remarking they have cave troll before we see it. Creating a sense of anticipation as the door is broken down.
Good points. What is frustrating is fight scenes with quick cuts and shakey camera done to hide inept choreography and combat skills.
Braveheart originally did it to show the chaos of battle & it worked at the time.
10 billion movies later & it's just boring.
as someone who does often feel themselves whining about how disorienting some action scenes are, I do agree with you that these disorienting qualities are narratively important. That's the key thing, isn't it? There are many action sequences in which their disorienting qualities seem unjustified, in a similar way to how some films have the camera slowly tracking around a shot-reverse shot scene of people sitting in a room talking seemingly just so that every single shot is dynamic. I much prefer the wide variety of shot composition that can speak a fuller cinematic language, and reserve the disorienting stuff for when the audience is supposed to feel the chaos
and again, I agree that there is something silly about trying to boil down a singular correct method for shooting an action scene. Even the people who are held up as examples of action scenes "done correctly" violate the rules, for precisely what you bring up
I agree and would add that shaky cam and quick cuts when used effectively to convey a sense of chaos and sometimes fear can be great but its often used as a crutch for weak action scenes. Its a tool, whether its good or bad depends on how its used. Same as the oft-maligned CGI or ADR
I think everyone saw liam neson jumping over the fence and got tired of cuts for a while ...
@@davidegaruti2582 Exactly!
I think in some way I personally think that this particular fight scene is good for capturing the chaos of a realistic fight despite not being totally realistic in every way.Granted there may be weird things thar don't make sense and fighting that many individuals with that small of a number would be quite difficult but it does capture the chaos of a real brawl and a genuine fight to the death.
I really appreciate your video's, people who just make video's because they feel they have something to say(or so i assume) as opposed to cranking out content to keep afloat in the algorithm are always worth the time.
Virtue of my youtube revenue being trash. There is no incentive to churn
This is my favorite topic from RUclipsrs who study the history of war and anthropology together, whether they specialize in one era/doctrine or branch into multiple. Sometimes the focus is on how historical fights and more realistic comics/movies/games should try to approach things. Sometimes, as in this video's case, the focus is on showing good fight scenes in stories (seems to apply firstly to movies, but also books/comics/oral sagas). It's a topic open to interpretation, but governed by real results, real psychology, real biomechanics (such as the variable speed and focus of the human eye), and quite a lot of evidence that makes it a vast topic to sink chew. It takes years to grasp through misconceptions, media-trained biases, and the desires behind tropes, and I've long watched you balance these weights with care.
It's really all about the editing and cuts. From comics, to books, to movies, to speeches, everything relies on what you choose to focus on, for how long, and how those transitions guide the viewer up and down carefully paced tension arcs. So, what one chooses to leave out says a lot about their final work. Peter Jackson succeeded in Fellowship of the Ring by limiting his action shots to what his actors could feasibly do, plus what their stuntmen, cameramen, and music/sfx teams could add. And even in the Extended Edition, he cut out many of the "bloat" shots and much unnecessary filler/shock style ideas that would later remain in The Hobbit. Honestly, LOTR showed great restraint from Jackson, who as a young filmmaker was keen on epic gore and shockfests. I think the stunt directors deserve more credit than they're due, not just the actors and stuntmen who pulled it off.
Also, Legolas was cool AF killing that troll, because you could see it was dangerous to him, but he finally overcame it while the rest of the entire party was defeated or held at bay by it. Without Legolas' superhuman abilities, the Fellowship would have died... And that scene finally brought it home that Gandalf wasn't the only immortal making damn sure the One Ring was destroyed. When I was a kid, I always liked that Legolas' broke his arrows on the troll's skull when he tried a double-shot. He had to shoot it through the roof of the mouth to finally brain it, and that was when I finally began to realize that Mordor was going to be like the nightmares that kept me awake as a four year old. Ahhh, it's good to digest and remember over time. Thanks for sharing your wisdom, sir.
Absolutely on Point- kinetic fury has its reasons for loss of visual eye, lighting fast movements like in real life'. ✨️✨️✨️✨️
I have just finished a re-read of The Fellowship of the Ring because my brother died while re-reading it in a very high-quality and heavy-to-hold volume full of Toklkien's own pictures. This may be my tenth full read, from The Hobbit to the Return of the King. I was always surprised that these were the dwarves' treasure chambers. The description made it clear it was some twenty by twenty with an oculus fifty feet up in the mountain's face. They did not have as much glory as they claimed, which seems right. Not a room with much room to fight.
When you play mostly strategy games with real time battles, you immediately understand why someone would say those are the techniques to shoot a good battle (i dont know about fights) for a film
so many movies today have exactly all the qualities of good technique at the total expense of the "narrative" that you mention. it is dire for the spirit to see so many blockbusters devoid of heart and content and imagine that as a reflection on the state of our culture...
The best fight scene I've ever seen is the dual at the end of Dune Part 2. Just unrelenting, unbelievably intense, amazingly choreographed. And it's when Paul demonstrates what's he willing to lose in order to win.
Also important to note that trying anything new that feels risky can be “disorienting” or at least very stimulating to those living the moment. This is a scenario where the characters could die. The hobbits are probably feeling pretty disoriented too. Cheers!
My favorite movie is one drawn out fight scene. Mad Max fury road is pure visual story telling.
great video. One show that immediately comes to mind when it comes to great use of narrative tension in fight scenes is Andor. I wonder if you've watched it? I think you would enjoy it
And this is why I am subscribed. I loved this video
We see this fight from the view of the hobbits there shocked and scared
I appreciate the disclaimer. Nice to get some water splashed on my face once in a while.
I think the problem these guys have is they don't view the camera as a method of characterization. To them, the camera is strictly to be used to show the viewer the literal actions of the actors, not to portray anything about the scene, such as the chaos of combat with orcs in a claustrophobic dwarf tomb. The camera shakes imply stress, the tight shots help aid that feeling of close combat. Hell, you could even argue the continuity errors can be excused as portraying a phenomenon I've seen veterans talk about which is that combat is experienced almost unconsciously and you piece it together later, sometimes incorrectly.
Thanks for the warning at the start.
Good points
My theory is people are so desperate for structure in their life they decide random aspect of media needs rote rules and set schemas for what makes something 'good' rather than taking the time to look at each thing holistically
A good point, although I feel attacked on watching fencing tournaments for entertainment.
Appreciate the warning
i appreciate the warning at the beginning lol i was starting to go into an executive-dysfunction-fueled misery scroll. still, i'm glad i stopped to watch this video--good stufd
One point of disagreement: born and raised in Kansas and it looked EXACTLY like that.
Joking aside, clean choreographed fight scenes can be entertaining, but they're not immersive. You watch this fight scene and it seems like a real fight. Noise and movement and confusion.
Well said, though I have to quibble with your comment at 1:45. You can have pretty realistic sword choreography that's also entertaining (example: ruclips.net/video/Cn36Pb8z3yI/видео.html), though I acknowledge that it's generally not necessary, and it's probably not easy to do.
🎉
nice
100%
This scene is supposed to be disorienting. The audience is supposed to feel overwhelmed white they are watching it. That's the point.
Storytelling isn't made to have its details analyzed (even though that can be fun and enriching, it's just candy), it's supposed to rope you in and take you on a journey. And by the end of it, you feel like you've experienced something new and that you've changed.
The forest is something other than a bunch of trees.
@@MalcolmPL Exactly!
Seems like apples and oranges to me. I prefer oranges, but that doesn't speak to the quality of any apple.
My favorite pro wrestling matches are impressive on both fronts, and if only impressive on one front or the other, a match is going to be forgotten. Films are more about story, so they can get away with using story to sell the action, but better action is still better action, and story is simply not the same.
Real fencing is not entertaining. Realistic well-choreographed fictional fencing is very entertaining.
Yeah... I'd say it's the best fantasy-genre fight scene ever.